On tongues

To sister Brenda. Whenever you shall have streanth to consider, please see the following:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

John Welsey commentary:
14:2 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaks, in effect, not to men, but to God - Who alone understands him.

Source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/wes/1_corinthians/14.htm

Speaking in tongues is not enough.If we turn men from unchristian religions to christianity we must produce miracles which convince men that Christ lives and He is real today.

T.L. Osborn

:"It is a wonderful thing to pray in the Spirit and to sing in the Spirit, praying in TONGUES and singing in TONGUES as the Spirit of God gives you utterance.""God has ordained this speaking in an unknown TONGUE unto Himself as a wonderful, supernatural means of communication in the Spirit."*I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the speaking in TONGUES, and I believe that every man who is baptized in the Holy Ghost will speak in other TONGUES as the Spirit gives him utterance.”

Smith Wigglesworth

John G. Lake said " I want to talk with the utmost frankness and say that tongues has been the making of my ministry. It is that peculiar communication with God when God reveals to my soul the truth I utter to you day by day in the ministry ….. many times I climb out of bed, take my pencil and pad, and jot down the beautiful things of God, the wonderful things of God that he talks out in my spirit and reveals to my heart.”

Amen

Corinthians 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

I will pray with my spirit - I will pray with my mind also

I will sing praise with my spirit - I will sing with my mind.

Singing in tounges for those who want proof in scripture.

I cannot understand why so many people take offense about such a simple basic gift of God.

In essence, they are telling God, we are wise and mature, this is too foolish, why do you give such a gift of babbling to children. How can you take glory from such unintelligable sounds?

It is for building up yourself in the spirit - then they say this is selfish, you should build up others.

I would reply, I can build up others better, when I have built myself up by this precious gift.

Luke 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

On a cautionary note, I must sadly remark, most of the tongues I have witnessed indeed sound like a repetitive "banana backwards", but as for me, I speak in a structured unknown language, and so do all who have the true gift.

Amen & amen

Same here (very structured and seems also to be in more than 1 variant - the control over which is not my own)

PS. Cannot force them out at will but when standing in prayer, the working is so clear and cannot be simply dismissed without a feeling of grieving the Spirit (ready to thus give utterance)

narrowpath

//On a cautionary note, I must sadly remark, most of the tongues I have witnessed indeed sound like a repetitive "banana backwards", but as for me, I speak in a structured unknown language, and so do all who have the true gift.//

It is those to whom you have an issue, not the ones who have only witnessed them. And no:

//I cannot understand why so many people take offense about such a simple basic gift of God.//

They just find it unscriptural and my now in depth study on the subject, from scripture, will give me that much needed full understanding on the subject. I hope we can discuss it with respect without any name calling and insulting.

Interesting how I have (few minutes ago) just over heard a neighbour praying aloud (for the first time) in what sounded like tongues. It seemed to come from the only family we have known to profess Christianity around.

We tried to associate with them but found their walk quite shallow. My wife visited their church in hope to join but came back cast down at how fleshly the service seemed. My older (10yrs) boy called his younger brother 'crazy' one time and when I asked where he heard it he said it was from the 5yr old from the said home (calling him crazy I reckon).

As I heard the tongues sound, I sought to search for positive as well as negative markers brought up here. He eventually died out before I could make clear sense. But he did seem to run out of utterance at some points - wherein he brought in, at one point, some heee! and haaa! sort of (heard such from a singer too). To me comes the church of Corinthians. A truly baptised someone who is getting carnal with his gift. Babes?

This is just a side note and may be ignored entirely. I just liked the coincidence.

We should all read 1 Corinthians Chapters 12, 13, 14 and also read John 15.
If we believe all of God’s Word we will embrace both the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit. All of the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ, but it is sad to say that many Charismatics have not exercised the gifts in the proper way. That is why the love chapter 1 Corinthians 13 was placed in between chapter 12 and 14. The gifts of the Spirit especially the gifts of tongues was being abused in the church at Corinth, and it is still being abused to this day, especially by Pentacostal denominations that teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

On the other hand the cessationists and those that deny the reality of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues are rejecting the very power of God that has been give to the Church for ministry to the Body of Christ. There have been ministers of the gospel that have been faithful for years preaching the gospel that have seen little fruit in their ministries, but after receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Word was preached not with enticing words of man’s wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, and in many instances they saw a dramatic increase in souls saved, and much more fruit in their ministries to the glory of God.

Good idea Mike but I suggest that we start in the Old Testament, and I will give verses when I have them.

Cessationists by the way do not deny the baptism of the Spirit. They say that it happens at conversion/ first coming to Christ. And they have good scriptures for it and is what I believed myself till I began to read holiness teachers speaking of a second blessing.

It would be good to know what others think about the 'second blessing', baptism of the Spirit.

I must admit that 1 Cor 14 is a tough one, and I have not really gone in depth with it as it seemed too difficult but now I will face it, scripturally.

I do not deny that the fastest growing church is the Pentecostal one with it's 'pop' music and tongues. Brethren we must be very careful in these last days as we have been warned about the great deception. So I would also like to ask what others think this deception is, especially as the conservative churches are withering away in the UK.

I think the love chapter 13 is crucial to understand the baptism

@brother Mike, Ravehill said to have told someone that the cross was not a symbol of Christianity - that power is.

Edited
Since the Spirit cannot be bought with money as Peter told Solomon the sorcerer, anyone who will do signs and wonders but without the accompanying solid tokens of a true Christian must have gotten their power from the enemy. This said, counterfeit is not denied.

But the devil is not dumb to make his schemes easy to decifer. But Jesus came and said, you shall know them by their fruits. If anyone bear godly fruits, no matter how much an issue we make of them, God won't prevent them from entering heaven in that day - just something to remember.

Ravehill said someone asked him if so and so was a Christian and he said I do not know - I never lived with them. So as to say I can tell best if one is a Christians after studying how they get on with the lives.

Unfortunately, it is not practical to physically live with all that we encounter. So often time we have nothing more than their word of testimony to work with. Do we reject that because it is not the same as staying with them.

Of cause I may not be able to ordain them simply from their verbal testimony but that is a good starting point and is better than nothing. And may for example take communion with them, with only just their word of testimony.

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.

The desciples found it strange that anyone should be a Christian/disciple without following. But Jesus' answer could be an answer to you too, sister. You are not informed about the to tongues we bring we understand (so did the desciples in a fugure). But will you not consider the fruits?

PS. For he that is not against us is on our part.

Edited

I should be done for today here:

"15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

If one looks only outwardly, then they should, in their attempt to take strict safety precautions, flee from real sheep too (baby with the bathing water?). So it is very important to look at fruits too.

by brendam
Cessationists by the way do not deny the baptism of the Spirit. They say that it happens at conversion/ first coming to Christ. And they have good scriptures for it and is what I believed myself till I began to read holiness teachers speaking of a second blessing.

It would be good to know what others think about the 'second blessing', baptism of the Spirit.

I've met immature Christian's that speak in tongues.
I've met mature Christian's that do not speak in tongues.

God is no respecter of persons. It rains on the just and the unjust, He gives gifts to those who ask, whether we think they are deserving or not.

I can only speak for myself, over 45 years of having the gift of tongues, I have found what Paul said was least of the gifts to be the most powerful gift to me (and others) at times. Like the old song says, "I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now!!!"

Paul says that prophecy is far preferable as it blesses others whereas tongues benefits ourselves as we feel proud.

Derek Prince has excellent teachings on Baptism of Spirit. If you believe that you have it all when you received Jesus as savior, you won’t seek for anything more..
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.” (John 20:22)
This was the disciples born again experience.

A number of objections are often raised against our conclusion that the manifestation of speaking with tongues is the accepted New Testament evidence that a person has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. For the sake of clarity and thoroughness, therefore, let us consider some of the most common objections.

One standard objection takes the following form: every Christian automatically received the Holy Spirit at conversion and therefore does not need any further experience or any other evidence to have the assurance of having received the Holy Spirit.

Much confusion and controversy will be avoided once we establish one important, scriptural fact: the New Testament depicts two separate experiences, both of which are described as "receiving the Holy Spirit.” This means it is possible for a Christian to have "received the Holy Spirit” in one use of the expression but not in the other.

A simple way to distinguish these two experiences is to compare the events of two Sundays, each uniquely important in the history of the Christian Church. The first is resurrection Sunday; the second is Pentecost Sunday.

On resurrection Sunday Jesus appeared to the apostles in a group for the first time after His resurrection.

"He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” (John 20:22)
Jesus’ breathing on the apostles was suited to the words which accompanied it: "Receive the Holy Spirit.” In Greek the same word pneuma means both "spirit” and "breath.” The words of Jesus could therefore be translated, "Receive holy breath.” Furthermore, the tense of the imperative form "receive” indicates that the receiving was a single, complete experience which took place as Jesus uttered the word. It is therefore an incontestable, scriptural fact that at that moment the apostles did actually "receive the Holy Spirit.”

In this first encounter with the resurrected Christ, the apostles passed from "Old Testament salvation” to "New Testament salvation.” Up to that time the believers of the Old Testament had looked forward, by faith, through prophecies and types and shadows to a redemptive act which had not yet taken place. Those who enter into "New Testament salvation,” on the other hand, look back to a single historical event: the death and resurrection of Christ. Their salvation is complete.

There are two requirements for receiving this New Testament salvation.

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rom. 10:9)
The two requirements are to confess Jesus as Lord and to believe that God raised Him from the dead. Prior to resurrection Sunday the apostles had already confessed Jesus as Lord. But now, for the first time, they also believed that God raised Him from the dead. Thus their salvation was completed.

This was the point at which they experienced the new birth. The Holy Spirit, breathed into them by Jesus, imparted to them a totally new kind of life ”“ eternal life ”“ which had triumphed over sin and Satan, over death and the grave.

Lord Jesus, thank You for the incomprehensible richness of Your Holy Spirit who comes upon Your children when they receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and which gives them so much power and supernatural presence of Yourself. Amen.

Derek Prince

//This was the point at which they experienced the new birth. The Holy Spirit, breathed into them by Jesus, imparted to them a totally new kind of life ”“ eternal life ”“ which had triumphed over sin and Satan, over death and the grave.//

I don't see it that way.

1 Peter 3:21 says it is baptism that saves: "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

We know that the baptism is not the water one, but the baptism of the Spirit which was prefigured, and fire which came upon them at Pentecost. This can only be the born again event.

Yes I know things have to be shifted around to put that in, but it is what scripture says regardless.

So what was the breathing on of the Spirit? The ECF's had the answer to that one. Having the Spirit breathed on brings the enlightenment we need to wait for the baptism and salvation.

Could we please consider Peter ?

After Jesus was raised from the dead.
(The Bible says, Jesus breath on His disciples, and they received the Holy Ghost)

We know that Peter, did not have the power,.. the boldness in him that was needed to NOT deny Jesus, before His death. And many other things, he came up lacking in.

When The Spirit of God revealed that Jesus was The Christ,… (Spiritually minded),.. then in the next verse or so,Jesus was telling him that He must go away. Peter’s fleshly mindedness, liked being w/Jesus , he answered him fleshly.
Then Jesus called him Satan…. So what does that tell us?
Then when Jesus came back from the dead , instead of straight way following Jesus, he was back doing ‘his own thing’,… "I go fishing ",.. and many followed him.
The emphasis was to be fishers of men… and then Jesus told them how they must do that. ..

Although,Jesus had already sent them,..the disciples, out preach and to heal while Jesus walked with them in His time of training them.

Then after Jesus rose from the dead, :,…this is what happened:
John 20:22(KJV)
"And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:…

Then after Jesus arose , left them, and told them to wait for The Spirit o the Day of Pentecost…

Luke 24:49 (KJV) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be *endued with power from on high.

But , what happened after Pentecost,.. after receiving the gift of The Holy Spirit?

He then became bold .
He suffered for Christ, .. and how did he die, for the name of Christ?

John 1:12 (KJV)
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:"
……………
elizabeth

elizabeth welcome

Good one. Yes becoming the sons of God ie born again at Pentecost. Power to receive and become at the breathing on.

Thank you Brenda,.. I’ve been reading and appreciate your comments.

Yes, I believe that baptism does now save us.
But , I do not believe it is the water.
It is the meaning of that baptism,.. which is a *death to self, and a Life to God.
… it is the *cup of death.

When this Mother ask Jesus to let her sons sit one on the right and one on the left of Jesus,…

Matthew 20:23 (KJV)
"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

… if it be your will,Father, let this cup pass,… nevertheless not my will but Thy will.
We know that Jesus drank the cup of death.
Every time we drink this cup, we deny ourselves,… we die to self.

………….
elizabeth

Thanks elizabeth

Thanks friend

Sorry, a double response

I don't mind you calling me friend twice :)

Speaking in tongues is not enough.If we turn men from unchristian religions to christianity we must produce miracles which convince men that Christ lives and He is real today.

T.L. Osborn

I completely disagree with Mr. Osborn here. There is absolutely no Biblical precedent for a requirement (must) that the body of Christ produce miracles to convince men. God draws by His own conviction power. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. Biblically it is the word of God, under the power of the Holy Spirit, that convicts and convinces. In the end time, false teachers will convince people to follow them with lying signs and wonders.

Does God still work miracles. Absolutely yes! Is it necessary for evangelism. Not Biblically! Can God use it in evalgelism? Sure! But I don't think that is the norm. What it produces is people reacting to His power rather than truth. Almost like people who followed Jesus for the loaves and fishes.

We should all read 1 Corinthians Chapters 12, 13, 14 and also read John 15.
If we believe all of God’s Word we will embrace both the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit. All of the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ, but it is sad to say that many Charismatics have not exercised the gifts in the proper way. That is why the love chapter 1 Corinthians 13 was placed in between chapter 12 and 14. The gifts of the Spirit especially the gifts of tongues was being abused in the church at Corinth, and it is still being abused to this day, especially by Pentacostal denominations that teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

On the other hand the cessationists and those that deny the reality of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues are rejecting the very power of God that has been give to the Church for ministry to the Body of Christ. There have been ministers of the gospel that have been faithful for years preaching the gospel that have seen little fruit in their ministries, but after receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Word was preached not with enticing words of man’s wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, and in many instances they saw a dramatic increase in souls saved, and much more fruit in their ministries to the glory of God.

Good idea Mike but I suggest that we start in the Old Testament, and I will give verses when I have them.

Cessationists by the way do not deny the baptism of the Spirit. They say that it happens at conversion/ first coming to Christ. And they have good scriptures for it and is what I believed myself till I began to read holiness teachers speaking of a second blessing.

It would be good to know what others think about the 'second blessing', baptism of the Spirit.

I must admit that 1 Cor 14 is a tough one, and I have not really gone in depth with it as it seemed too difficult but now I will face it, scripturally.

I do not deny that the fastest growing church is the Pentecostal one with it's 'pop' music and tongues. Brethren we must be very careful in these last days as we have been warned about the great deception. So I would also like to ask what others think this deception is, especially as the conservative churches are withering away in the UK.

I think the love chapter 13 is crucial to understand the baptism

So here is a question for consideration. Is it possible to be baptized in the Holy Spirit without any kind of ecstatic experience and without speaking in tongues?

My own Baptism in the Spirit was accompanied by speaking in tongues. In fact, another young person and I were singing the same song in tongues, at the same time, with the same melody, as we praised God. It is something I had never heard of before and never have seen since. But the Baptism in the Spirit played out in my life has not centered upon tongues. It has centered on the power of the Spirit in my to allow me to have victory over sin, be transformed to be more like Jesus, and bear the fruit of the Spirit.

I have seen men and women who never have spoken in tongues who have just as powerful a ministry, just as much of the fruit of the Spirit, and just as much victory over sin as I have.

The only Biblical prerequisite for being baptized in the Holy Spirit is to be born again, and Jesus promised to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who would ask Him. So, if a person is born again and asks God to baptize him or her in the Holy Spirit, can we trust that God is true and it has happened?

Worth considering. Is tongues "THE" sign or evidence, and is it necessary?

(Response to Brenda)

😊

[Paul says that prophecy is far preferable as it blesses others whereas tongues benefits ourselves as we feel proud.]

This is so twisted. No, this is what you say, but not Paul:

1. Cor 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1. How can speaking mysteries unto God make us feel proud?
God receives glory when we speak mysteries unto him, and we build ourselves up just as

Jude 20 says:
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

I can be puffed up if I elevate myself above others because I have the gift, but the problem is not the gift, but my pride. Every Christian who has a gift must humble themselves, that applies to all gifts, not just tongues.

2. Paul whishes that all speak in tongues and even more that they prophesy. If Paul said in

1 Cor 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

How then should this be a bad thing?

He said it is good to pray in tongues and even better to prophesy, it is a both-and.

"I completely disagree with Mr. Osborn here. There is absolutely no Biblical precedent for a requirement (must) that the body of Christ produce miracles to convince men. God draws by His own conviction power. "

Travis, are you familiar with the ministry of T. L. Osborn’s ministry? He had large out door meetings where there were miracles, signs and wonders. Of course the Holy Spirit was drawing the people but God was also using the miracles to draw multitudes of people to these meetings to hear the gospel. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and God was confirming His Word with signs following.

" And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord kept working with them and confirming the message by the attesting signs and miracles that closely accompanied [it]. Amen (so be it).” (Mark 16:20)

by brendam
Paul says that prophecy is far preferable as it blesses others whereas tongues benefits ourselves as we feel proud.

14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies (builds up) himself [does not mean pride], but the one who prophesies builds up the church [does build up mean pride when used here?].

14:5 Now I WANT YOU ALL TO SPEAK IN TONGUES, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS HE INTERPRETS, so that the church may be built up.

14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.

Where is the scripture and verse where Paul said, "tongues benefits ourselves as we feel proud"?

PS: I didn't see narrowpath's response!!
"This is so twisted. No, this is what you say, but not Paul"
Amen brother.

"consider others as more important than yourselves. Everyone should look not to his own interests, but rather to the interests of others" -- Philippians 2:3-4 (CSB)

The person who prophesies is greater than the person who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be built up. -- 1 Corinthians 14:5 (CSB)

Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy. -- 1 Corinthians 14:1 (CSB)

Considering these texts, how much priority should tongues without interpretation have in the gatherings of the body or interactive conversations ?

Humility, putting others' needs for strengthening as our highest thought and priority of life, and love, meeting others' needs practically with our life, would direct that tongues are last and not first which was Paul's point. Humility, love and helping others as your highest priority in all things, including the pursuit of gifts and their exercise are the overriding purpose of the gifts. Corinth forgot that. So do many others. Corinth's overriding problem was self focus, self first, self elevation leading to spiritual pride keeping them immature and carnal.

Why are there so many posts on tongues ? Have we arrived at true humility, true love, and earnestly seeking for prophetic words and receiving them and exercising them so that tongues is the last gift we should seek after or be concerned about ? To me, the far greater problem that most have is not a lack of spiritual gifts, it is true humility, not only the kind that bows before God, the kind that puts other brothers and sisters and their needs first in all of our life.

We are a lot more like Corinth than we are like the churches in Ephesus, Colosse, and Thessalonica. Longing for miracles, signs and gifts only has any credibility as it first and foremost comes from an established and deeply rooted attitude of humility lived out in love. Many will say we know that, but the bigger question is are we known by that.

Robert said:
"Many will say we know that, but the bigger question is, are we known by that?"

AMEN.

It's always the question of whether something is real that ruins the fun of the theoretical.

I do not see tongues being a common marker of Holy Spirit baptism in practice - thought I can understand how some could think scriptures to suggest that.

//Humility, putting others' needs for strengthening as our highest thought and priority of life, and love, meeting others' needs practically with our life, would direct that tongues are last and not first which was Paul's point. Humility, love and helping others as your highest priority in all things, including the pursuit of gifts and their exercise are the overriding purpose of the gifts. Corinth forgot that. So do many others. Corinth's overriding problem was self focus, self first, self elevation leading to spiritual pride keeping them immature and carnal.//

Well said Robert.

Lisa

14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies (builds up) himself [does not mean pride], but the one who prophesies builds up the church [does build up mean pride when used here?].

We get the whole tenor of what Paul is conveying to the Corinthians as he is laying out just how selfish they were and how devoid of love, which he had to explain in depth in chapter 13, them being not baptized in the Holy Spirit.

He is pointing out to them how prideful they are, and in this chapter, he is speaking to their actions in a negative sense , so when he says edifies, he means that negatively as well. They edify their self esteem meaning pride.

When he says Would be you all spoke in tongues! he is not being literal as he already said not all speak in tongues. I think he is just being sarcastic or something which I need to think more about.

[We get the whole tenor of what Paul is conveying to the Corinthians as he is laying out just how selfish they were and how devoid of love, which he had to explain in depth in chapter 13, them being not baptized in the Holy Spirit.

He is pointing out to them how prideful they are, and in this chapter, he is speaking to their actions in a negative sense , so when he says edifies, he means that negatively as well. They edify their self esteem meaning pride.

When he says Would be you all spoke in tongues! he is not being literal as he already said not all speak in tongues. I think he is just being sarcastic or something which I need to think more about.]

No Paul says right in the beginning of 1 Cor
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way””with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge”” 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

They had the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and expressed the real gifts, but they were still carnal.

Yes, you can have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and still be carnal, while speaking in tongues, prophesying and healing the sick.

The problem was never the gifts, but their carnality. They lacked in sanctification and that was partly due to bad influence of the superapostles, who in turn catered for their carnality.

My last words are, may those who are able to pray in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance so continue and be not discouraged at all. As long as you know you also seek after holiness you shoul be good. For:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Also, remembering the below:

"Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It were better..."

narrowpath

Could you tell me your version please?

Mine says:

I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours says you have been enriched. However in the KJV it is saying that Paul is wanting them to be enriched in my understanding. Your version does not make sense of the rebuke from Paul over their inability to understand what love is, and no you cannot be baptized in the Spirit and not know this. You cannot take one or two verses out to interpret that way. You are not using context.

A Greek scholar here would be good.

Brother if you think that you can be entirely sanctified/Spirit baptized and still need someone to tell you what that love is which is supposed to have been shed abroad in your heart, I can only say God have mercy.

Scripture is very plain on its black and white theology.

Also in verse 2 it says 'called' to be saints therefore not yet. Sanctified or set apart and enlightened but not entirely sanctified/baptized into Christ.

by narrowpath:
The problem was never the gifts, but their carnality...

by KervinM
My last words are, may those who are able to pray in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance so continue and be not discouraged at all...

Brethren

Do not fear the moving of the Holy Spirit if He is showing you something that gives you unease. Any movement away from 'peace' should be taken seriously as false peace is possible in all matters.

It is very easy to quench the Spirit when He tries to tell you something. Otherwise, that which is from God cannot be moved and will not cause unease.

Kervin's last words and Brenda's last post are both, in my opinion, solid advice.

Mike: Tulsa is just down the road. I am familiar with TL Osborn. I just disagree with his statement. I don't think that we MUST have signs and wonders to win the lost. They can be good, but they are not necessary. The Holy Spirit can draw the lost. In fact, that is His stated purpose in scripture. Jesus told the Jews that they were wicked, seeking after signs, and that no sign would be given them. Again, miracles are awesome. But I just don't agree with Osborn as he said it.

1 Cor. 1:5

I am not a Greek scholar, but I can research it. The word is eploutisthete transliterated. It is a verb in the aorist tense, indicative mood, passive voice. The aorist tense indicates an action that has taken place already. So the interlinear I consulted translates this as "you have been enriched."

It would then say, "that in everything you have been enriched in Him in all speech and all knowledge." Verse 6 would, I think, speak to this as well as Paul uses the phrase, "Even as Christ WAS confirmed in you."

So, if we have Christ in us, we have been given His ability to help us with speech and knowledge. Kind of like our terrible American bread is enriched with vitamins where they are lacking. Due to the vitamins being in the bread it is already enriched with things that we need.

That is the perspective I get when looking at this verse.

I have read Travis that there is a lot of controversy on the meaning of the aorist tense and it could mean a continuing sense.

Doesn't look like they had all knowledge if they required educating on what love is. And everything else Paul had to teach them. Those who are complete in Christ are told they should be teaching others not being taught themselves. Doesn't add up.

Brenda: This is why I think context is vitally important. (By vitally, I mean just that. It can be a matter of life or death.) When we read knowledge, we cannot automatically say, "All things that can be known", nor can we say, "knowledge about any topic". We have to stick with the context.

3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context here is the grace that is given us by Jesus Christ. That grace is the means of salvation. The testimony of Christ is confirmed in us, and we are waiting for His coming and know that He will confirm us to the end, keep us until the day of the coming of the Lord. In this context we come behind in no gift and we are enriched by him in all utterance and in all knowledge. Utterance and knowledge of what? That is the question. Peter says almost the same thing in 2 Peter 1:2-4. We are given all things that pertain unto life and Godliness through the knowledge of Him who has called us unto glory and virtue. These "all things" are in the context of knowing God through Jesus, and having promises given to us so that we might escape the corruption that is in the world. These promises pertain to our salvation.

So in context, Paul is dealing with all knowledge and all utterance about a particular aspect of the Christian life. And the context is how we rightly interpret the word of God.

By the way, Brenda, I totally agree with your last statement. A person who is not teachable should not be teaching.

[Also in verse 2 it says 'called' to be saints therefore not yet. Sanctified or set apart and enlightened but not entirely sanctified/baptized into Christ.]

No, this is not true.

I normally use the KJV, but in my previos post I used the NKJV.

I did check the Greek:

1 Cor 2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

it says κλητοῖς ἁγίοις which should actually be translated in the adjectival form "the called saints" and not called to be called saints.

1 Cor 1:4-6
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These are all statements in the indicative form, not conjunctive. It is a statement, not a petition that he utters for them, but a giving of thanks for what they are.
There is absolutely no suggestion that they had not attained it.

From this we can conclude that they were a gathering of saints in whom the charismatic gifts abounded, and they were waiting for the revelation of Christ, which means here his second coming. He starts with affirming the good that they had, and then starts to unfold his admonishments and rebukes.

Yes, there were many grievious things he had to deal with: partitions, lack of care, sin, pride, disorder in fellowship, adultery, drunkeness and the like.

Paul saw a troubled church that came out of darkest paganism. It was a port city with prostituion, wealth inequality and idolatry.

I love these 2 letters because Pauls words overflow with praise and thanksgiving, deep grief and throbbing pain, and harsh rebuke for the troublemakers. Though they slighted him and followed the "superapostles" his wounded heart was still full of love for them.

He refuses to take a single penny from them, yet worked day and night to give them an example for work ethics.

In Chapter 12 and 14 Pauls talks about how the gifts should be practised in propper turn and order, but he never forbade or discouraged them.

In the end he wooed most of them back to the Lord.

Yes, the Corinthians were a troubled church but Paul was much harsher towards the Galatians for whom he had no praise.

Wow...just something to add to what the fine brothers and sisters of SI have already said...and no argument with me concerning the scriptures! Praise the Lord! He is always Good! Salvation is the greatest blessing from God we could ever receive!

It is so wonderful when we know that we have been saved and have the confidence in knowing, because we have received the witness of His Spirit that has also made us a new creation.

We are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.

The scriptures also tell us that if any man thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet that he ought to know.

I admit there is a lot I don't know but the experiences that I have received while believing in and praying to God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ has given me such hope that I can't even explain the joy I have experienced on a daily basis.

Whatever experience you have received from God by believing in the full gospel of Christ will give you confidence in your relationship with Him.

If you are truly saved according to the scriptures and know that you are saved because you have received the experience of salvation then you should praise God and also witness for Christ everyday.

Finally, I would like to mention that I received my salvation experience back in September 1983 and I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was miraculously saved by receiving the Holy Spirit in regeneration. I was born again from above and everybody around me saw a great change in my life, from then on I start walking with the Lord as a new creature growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. I started reading, studying the bible and seeking God day and night.

Now to keep from such a long post, I will fast forward to July 2006. I was praying and seeking the Lord in prayer beside my bed between 11pm and 12am when something happened to me like never before nor since that night. I was praying to God desiring to get close to Him, needing him to bless me with His presence more in my life. I will never forget the words I was saying. I said humbly, Heavenly Father I come to to thee in the only name that I know how to come, in the name of Jesus Christ your son and I come not because I've been a good boy, but on the ground of the blood of Jesus...that was the last thing I remembering saying because something supernatural started happening in me after I said the blood of Jesus.. because the next thing I heard was a loud roar and I thought... Lord I'm going to wake everybody up... then a thought came to me to listen, and I did listen, and I heard myself speaking loudly, rapidly in a language that was unknown to me. Then another thought came to me to look down and I saw my feet and legs moving up and down like hypothetically a thousand miles an hour. Then I saw a vision like an Eye that was so innocent and a Lamb. Then more thoughts like the need of getting back to the altar, the blood and the cross...

Anyway it was the most amazing experience ever! I don't have time to explain the journey I have experienced since that time, but I don't argue with someone who hasn't had the experience because they don't know. We can only know what God reveals to us and what we have experienced.

I still don't know a lot of things but I know that the experience that I have received has got me through some very difficult times in my life. I don't have to convince everyone because people are going to believe what they understand or what they want to believe. I've heard Christian men like John MacArthur and others criticize speaking in tongues because they just don't know, but it is still in the scriptures rather they want to believe it or not.

I am so thankful for what God has done in my life and I still desire for Him to do so much more than I could ever imagine or think...according to the power that works in us.

Blessings and love to Everyone!
-rbanks

Wonderful, rbanks, I believe there are many here who have similar experiences and see things like you. You simply cannot argue with a person who has not experienced it.

Great Testimony rbanks

Quote: I've heard Christian men like John MacArthur and others criticize speaking in tongues because they just don't know, but it is still in the scriptures rather they want to believe it or not.

That's so true!

The problem with Bible interpretation of 1 Cor 14 found amongst the brethren here, is that it is not following good hermeneutic principles which are, that any 'cloudy passages' like some of the verses in 1 Cor 14, must be backed up with other parts of scripture.

The only other place where tongues is discussed, is in Acts 2 and there, it clearly speaks of known languages. Added to which we find that even Greek scholars differ so much especially on verbs.

We have seen this in the opening verse in chapter 14. There are obviously two main interpretations and mine is the one held in the most important of the ECF's writings. Of course you can go to them to get out whatever you like, but there were pillars of the church that wore halo's and were known as holy men and they knew nothing about the secret prayer languages that are experienced here.

I am afraid that it does not wash with me that even if everyone here has had the experience of that prayer language, I will not accept it if it is not clear in scripture, backed up by history.

Now the foreign language one has been recorded throughout history. Well I think that it could occur outside of the working of the Holy Spirit. I am leaning more towards the sign gift of judgement. But I am open to consider anything validly presented.

I too had a profound experience of 'salvation' 50 years ago and remember the month date and time of it and felt that I was saved for along time. However, the older I get, the more I don't see the evangelical narrative explained in scripture and especially the verse from 1 Peter that says baptism (not water) saves us - as clear as daylight and only one person has responded to that. Everyone else has dodged it. Of course, it does not fit into their theology.

So I am expected to accept a highly disputed verse about prayer language with no other valid evidence. Oh and experience over something that has divided Christians like nothing else this last 100 years. I'm sorry but that has the mark of Satan.

narrowpath

//waiting for the revelation of Christ, which means here his second coming//

Yes but not as you know it! This is another part of scripture that has another meaning for some and in particular the early Quakers who had so much right and so much that is found in the early writings.

They said that the second coming is when Christ baptizes in the Spirit and is revealed fully to the man concerned.

Yes the called saints is fine by me. The ones who God already knew would submit to Him fully.

Now then, that comment about the difference between the treatment of Paul towards the Corinthians and Galatians is brilliant! I never though of that before! It is so revealing.

It seems to me that the Corinthians had to be handled with 'kid gloves' and coming from that pit of iniquity they were demonized I am sure and needed a lot of support to hear the truth. It could not be given as to the Galatians- straight on the chin! This is because they could take the truth but the Corinthians needed to be coddled at first. Else I guess they would just walk out. Brilliant point!

10 minute listen -

https://youtu.be/d3guHG2qwAY?feature=shared

Brenda has it ever occurred to you that most of your studying has been from men’s teachings instead of the Bible scriptures.

Your interpretations are reading into the scriptures to prove your own understanding. You maybe deceived and not realize it because you seem to have a superior knowledge over others who just take the scriptures as they are along with the experience that the disciples received in the Bible.

Here is just a few scriptures that plainly show that the Holy Spirit gives the utterance to speak in another tongue (language) than the known one a person uses normally. When people say unknown, it does not mean that it is not known by God or someone else somewhere, but it means it was unknown to the one speaking because the Holy Spirit cause the person to speak in a new tongue or in another tongue than the one he/she knew previously. The new tongue is from the Holy Spirit.

The problem you seem to have is that you can’t trust God to do something in your life that goes beyond your understanding. You can only lean to your understanding.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Everything we receive from God, from salvation, the new birth and everything we receive until we enter into Heaven is a gift from God.

We receive everything from God by grace through faith. We are saved by faith and without faith we can’t even please God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Blessings,
rbanks

rbanks

//When people say unknown, it does not mean that it is not known by God or someone else somewhere, but it means it was unknown to the one speaking because the Holy Spirit cause the person to speak in a new tongue or in another tongue than the one he/she knew previously. The new tongue is from the Holy Spirit.//

'Unknown' is not in the original text brother, it has been added by the KJV translators. Check it. It just says tongues.

I have had to have more faith than most, due to the pathway of suffering that the Lord has chosen for me. It is only by faith that I am still standing. Long ago I had to lean NOT in my own understanding otherwise I would have lost my faith. Very severe health problems since I was poisoned at 10 months, severely damaged due to neglect, rejection and lack of medical care all of my life. Two abusive marriages. Loss of four children as adults. Brother you do not know the half of it. So don't speak to me of faith.

Or of bible reading - done constantly for 50 years now. I believe in Acts 2 and what God did. I do not see a private prayer language in scripture.

I'm not talking at this time about a private prayer language.

I never said the exact word "unknown" was in the bible. The scriptures I listed said "new tongue" and "another tongue".

That clearly means that it was not their normal language or tongue. Unknown is only implied from the text because it was not known to them before the Spirit gave the utterance.

Sorry…I thought I had listed these scriptures…

Acts 2:4 (KJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11 (KJV)
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46 (KJV)
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Isaiah 28:11 (KJV)
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Mark 16:17 (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

1 Cor 2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

it says κλητοῖς ἁγίοις which should actually be translated in the adjectival form "the called saints" and not called to be called saints.

That is also my understanding. Spot on. It does not mean someone is about to be called into something. It means these are the ones who we call saints.

rbanks and Narrowpath:

A person's testimony is powerful. rbanks, I appreciate the testimomy.

There is a truth that a testimony gives a perspective that one without the testimony can miss. I once jumped out of an airplane, so I know what it is like to be in freefall for a full minute. I can try to explain that experience to you, but you will never really know unless you do the same.

There is such a thing as false experiences, but when the experience is consistent with the word of God and produces the fruit of Godliness and sound maturity in the life of a believer, then it is not a false experience.

I also have vivid memory of my salvation. I was 8 years old, and felt like the weight of the world lifted off my heart. I knew that I knew, without any doubt, that the work was done and that I was born again. It set the course for my entire life.

I remember receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at age 18. Once again, it changed my life. The fact that I praised the Lord in tongues, in both word and song was fantastic. But that is not at all the power of the experience. It was the change in my life that was the real power of the experience. I now had a power to live a Godly life that I had lacked before.

i.e., Private Prayer Language.

Cannot find this concept in scripture at all. It just is not there as many charismatics describe it. I often hear that this is a personal language, given you by God, through which you can pray privately so the devil cannot understand you. Totally a made up concept that holds no Biblical water.

But, praying in tongues, is clear. It is abundantly clear in 1 Cor. 14, described in quite a bit of detail. There is more Biblical teaching and history in the New Testament about speaking in tongues than there is for a large number of other doctrines that we accept.

What about the fact that of the four Biblical accounts of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit recorded in Acts, three of them specifically mention speaking in tongues.
The fourth does not, yet Simon was willing to pay money to have the ability to impart the gift based upon something he saw or heard in connection to it. If nothing apparent happened, he would not have had this desire.

So I am expected to accept a highly disputed verse about prayer language with no other valid evidence. Oh and experience over something that has divided Christians like nothing else this last 100 years. I'm sorry but that has the mark of Satan.

Brenda:
In the discussion about cessationism, I mentioned that I could pray with and worship with a cessationist, even though I am not a cessationist myself. What a cessationist does and does not believe has been so sadly misrepresented by charismatics that want to castigate cessationists. Some charismatics go so far as to say that cessationism is of the devil because it "denies the power thereof" (Note: This is NOT what this verse is saying by the way.) There is a division in the body on the topic of tongues, miracles, and gifts and the charismatics are saying the cessationists are of the devil because they are not accepting the charismatic view.

I am just wondering how your statement is any different? Are you not looking at the same division with the same opinion, except on the other side of the fence? I am not trying to be critical at all. It is just, I think, a valid question for consideration.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you that there are those out there that are "speaking in tongues" that are really just dealing in fleshly gibberish. I also agree that there are those out there that are speaking in demonic tongues. New Agers are notorious for this. But I also know that there are those out there that don't speak in tongues that are guilty of pride and a lack of love towards others who do. (I am NOT saying this of you, please understand.) There are cessationists who are living in private sin and those who aren't even saved.

So in both of these cases, does the fact that there are those who are false make the true invalid? I think that is why we are to try the spirits to see if they are of God, for many false spirits have gone out into the world.

I used to travel with a missionary to remote Tarahumara (or "Rarámuri") tribal villages deep in the Sierra Madre Occidental of southern Chihuahua, Mexico. There are tribal communities (mostly on the northern and eastern outskirts of the mountain range) where the indigenous people have some interaction with outsiders.

However, we mostly traveled to extremely remote villages which were often only accessible by 4x4 vehicles (and even horses) over difficult mountain trails. Most of these communities had little or absolutely no interaction with anyone outside of their villages. In one village, my blue eyes became something of an ongoing conversation -- because those residing in that village had ever seen such eye color before.

During those experiences, I became familiar with a people who had little or even no interaction with outsiders (including Mexican). Many people lived in caves and their villages had no modern amenities (including electricity). The people were largely illiterate (i.e., unable to read/write) and almost no one could speak Spanish. In one village, the believers met at a tree to worship and learn from the Lord.

In terms of temperment, the Tarahumara/Rarámuri are very soft-spoken. They aren't given to moments of sensationalism or emotional outburst that is sometimes a hallmark of some churches. Even the Tarahumara language is quite distinctive (and very different from Spanish or English). Most of the indigenous people (who have little or no Mexican influence) are animists. You can see samples featuring elements of their language on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOXvEKtdIXI

With this in mind, I remember that I was very surprised at one of the meetings when I saw some of the believers in one of those villages receive the Holy Spirit and begin speaking in other tongues. These were individuals who did not have radios or televisions. They didn't have access to Spanish-speaking churches or ministers. Yet, here they were, weeping and filled with joy as they spoke in languages that were very different from their own.

I can only communicate in a few words and phrases in their native language. I can communicate rather fluently in Spanish; however, I would subsequently need to have my words translated into Tarahumara. Others would speak in English, wait for their words to be translated into Spanish and, after that, wait for those words to be translated into the indigenous Rarámuri language.

When they spoke with other tongues, it was quite clear that they were speaking in a language other than their own. They clearly were not speaking in any sort of Latin-rooted language (like Spanish) or English. I can speak a bit of German and French too. Whatever they were saying, it wasn't being said in anything that sounded even remotely like those languages.

To be clear: They weren't repeating the same "words" or syllables that are often heard/repeated/recited in many Pentecostal or Charismatic churches or on television, radio or the internet. There weren't any "shundays" or "hondas" as others humorously described earlier in this thread (possibly strange efforts to "make it happen"). After all, those villagers had never seen or heard such things before. One tribal elder who had traveled to one of the villages we visited even commented that he now finally knew that those few villages around his weren't all there was in this world.

On a personal note, I've never seen any evidence for strictly cessationism doctrine in Scripture. The passages that are often used to substantiate such a belief are (in my strong opinion) quite clearly taken out of context. It's not that I don't understand such an argument (or why someone might believe it); rather, it's that I understand what they are claiming but I do not believe that the small assortment of Scripture passages that they quote are correctly interpreted in any sort of cessationist manner.

Thank You Chris for sharing this amazing testimony. Isn’t it unreal how we try to help the Holy Spirit out instead of cooperating with Him?

Praise God Brethren, the Word of the Lord will stand forever!

Luke 11:9-13 (KJV) 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Isaiah 28:11 (KJV)
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Who was the first one who spoke in tongues?

It was in fact Bileam's ass. Though it could only speak donkeyish, it suddenly could speak words of wisdom in perfect Moabite!

God uses the foolish things for his glory and so it is with tongues, too.

Dear brethren, I will be a fool for my Christ for a moment. Tongues as a prayer language, let me explain it in retrospect of experience. Oh, Father that your Spirit would guide me rightly as I speak to my brethren, and that I would lift my great High Priest up as I do it! Months after true transformation through Christ precious work I sought all Father wanted to give me through my precious Christ. How precious Christ truly becomes to one who has experienced His healing touch, being changed inwardly, being brought in to new life! One-night dear brethren at work while outside on a break my mouth felt the very presence of God within it, and our Great almighty God's presence around me! When I opened my mouth, with the surprise of my asking being brought forth a bright light issued out from my mouth! My tongue was filled with His presence! I worked third shift back then. I remember going straight to that precious lady's house who had led me to Christ, explaining what had occurred that night! Brethren, let us not be divided in clear teaching. I will leave you with a warning, it seems to be my lot in our Lord's precious body, and then an exhortation. Love you each!

Tongues or a pray language cannot be taught by man! It is a work of all mighty God alone. If it can be taught by man, it is not of God. My prayer language is between me and my God as 1 Corinthians 14 clearly explains, to build me up into greater Christ likeness and allow me to clearly explain my Christs precious Word as He through His Spirit brings it forth through my spirit. I could fill this page with scripture, but friends we already know them. It is a matter of faith or unbelief alone at this point. I will also add, when in the past sadly when I was but luke warm I would never have a desire to use my prayer language, it is only when I am inflamed with my Lord that I have an inward desire from Christ precious Spirit to use it in prayer and in singing.

The clock is ticking, Father is preparing an end time army for an end time harvest to lift up Christ our Great and precious High Priest, I pray you will be a part of it with me my dear friends. The Holy Spirit is becoming more and more intense within me in presence. We must wait underneath the covering of Christ our Lord to survive what is coming. Let us prepare for the spiritual battle approaching us at a very fast pace dear friends.

Tongues or a pray language cannot be taught by man! It is a work of all mighty God alone. If it can be taught by man, it is not of God. My prayer language is between me and my God as 1 Corinthians 14 clearly explains, to build me up into greater Christ likeness and allow me to clearly explain my Christs precious Word as He through His Spirit brings it forth through my spirit. I could fill this page with scripture, but friends we already know them. It is a matter of faith or unbelief alone at this point. I will also add, when in the past sadly when I was but luke warm I would never have a desire to use my prayer language, it is only when I am inflamed with my Lord that I have an inward desire from Christ precious Spirit to use it in prayer and in singing.

Amen Billy. Just to clarify. My statement about a prayer language was not meant to imply that praying in tongues is invalid. I was also gloriously filled with the Holy Spirit and I pray in tongues. But a person being given a specific prayer language is not a Biblical concept. You are right. Tongues cannot be taught. It is a gift of God and it is of God.

4¶There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

8for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the samefn Spirit,

10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

They are available!!!

Yes, dear sister there are varieties! How Wonderful is our beloved Christ! He gave gifts to us, and He through His Spirit chooses, however we can ask, it is biblically permissionable. But do all speak in tongues no, are all prophets no and we could keep going with the no concerning Christ giftings through His precious Spirit, and our Heavenly Father. Thank you for adding this sister! How marvelous is our Great High Priest, our precious older brother, our sacrificial lamb, our messiah, and Savoir, very God within our very flesh! Pray we all are doing His work through His Spirit in love and keeping in step on His return! Blessings through our Lord.

Here are the words of Jesus when He promissed the Holy Spirit:
"But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8, Ampl.)

Jesus didn't promisse that when the HS comes everyone will be able to speak another language without learning it.
He promised "power and ability" to witness for HIM.
Now we don't seem to have that power and ability anymore.

We like to tell everyone about the gift we received instead of JESUS who gives us the gifts that we need to witness for Him.

Markus

Quote: We like to tell everyone about the gift we received instead of JESUS who gives us the gifts that we need to witness for Him.

The is nothing wrong with sharing our testimony; it is one of the ways we overcome
1. By the blood of the Lamb.
2. by the word of our testimony.

Quote: Jesus didn't promisse that when the HS comes everyone will be able to speak another language without learning it.

I have put up the whole passage.

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

This is what he promised, if we believe in his name.

1. They shall cast out devils.
2. They shall speak with new tongues.
3. They shall take up serpents.
4. If they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.
5. They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When I read it I see that, if I believe in Jesus these signs will follow me; one of them is I will speak in a new tounges.

Praise God...what gives me great faith is the fact that God Is...that He is with me... and has truly saved me...it is in the knowing....and knowing that I have received the witness of His Spirit.

The power of God that came upon me and filled me to overflowing to the evidence of speaking in another tongue was just so amazing! What I felt was so amazing!!! I didn't learn a new tongue! I didn't repeat after anybody! I was alone with God only!!! It caused me to be on a spiritual high for a whole month!!! I can never ever, ever, ever doubt that God is Real and what He has done in me...because I am nothing, nothing, nothing!!!

I could hardly believe that He loved me so much to do something so amazing in me...me who is the least of so many others that I think is better than me!

I can't explain everything He did in me that night and the affect it has had on me!

I can do anything He wants me to do through Christ who strenghtens me!!!

Praise God! Love you all in Jesus name!!
rbanks

Shout it out Brother, shout it out.

He chooses the weak things, the nobodies, the despised, the rejected.

He makes them strong, he makes them somebodies, he loves, he accepts them, he makes them Victorious.

That's what he is going to raise up in these last days.

A victorious people.

You strirred me up, by your testimony.

Markus wrote:
"We like to tell everyone about the gift we received instead of JESUS who gives us the gifts that we need to witness for Him."

Amen.

I Praise God for you, brother Colin. I’m so glad you are still on SI…

My answer to some others…

I don’t just like…but I love to tell everyone about the gift of Jesus Christ who has been given to us…and the gift He gives, not instead Him, but because of Him…and He keeps on giving…to all those who will ask in faith believing in Him!

Many have not because they ask not…

What Jesus has done in You is your greatest witness for Jesus Christ!

If Jesus has done nothing in you…then you are no good witness for Him at all!

Your unbelief has robbed you of the greatest blessing!

Blessings,
rbanks

I thinks it's telling that to be a witness, or to testify, is to be a witness to the resurrection of Jesus, and the gospel message through which we believe in Him. Testimony is also never linked to spiritual experiences, but always to Jesus and His life and work. Scripture is painfully obvious in this, to argue that we are commanded, or anywhere told to preach our experiences to people is to argue with scripture. None of these texts are taken out of a context that would change their meaning, so feel free to check my contextual understanding of each one (in fact I encourage it).

"The following night the Lord stood by him and said, "Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.”” (Acts 23:11)

"And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.” (Acts 20:22-25)

""For it is written in the Book of Psalms, "‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and "‘Let another take his office.’ So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us””one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”” (Acts 1:20-22)

"Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.” (Acts 2:30-32)

"But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.” (Acts 3:14-15)

"The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”” (Acts 5:30-32)

"you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.” (Acts 10:37-42)

And there are so, so many more...

So I think to summarize, if your "testimony" and your "witness for Jesus" is a story of your subjective spiritual experiences - I would say make your calling and election sure because the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus, not men.

I agree with the scriptures! Love all the Word of God!

Romans 8:9 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:2 (KJV)
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ezekiel 36:26,27 (KJV)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

John 3:6 (KJV)
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 8:11 (KJV)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Luke 11:13 (KJV)
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV)
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Galatians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 1:13,17,18 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

2 Timothy 1:14 (KJV)
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1 John 4:4 (KJV)
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jude 1:19-21 (KJV)
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Galatians 5:24 (KJV)
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Blessings,
rbanks

Acts 9:17-18 (KJV) 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

1 Timothy 4:14 (KJV) Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (KJV)
19 Quench not the Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:6 (KJV)
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Acts 19:6 (KJV)
6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11:12-18 (KJV) 12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Peter 1:2-4 (KJV) 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 1:5-11 (KJV) 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Nothing of the devil will be destroyed without having a true experience with God!

Nothing of God will be gained without having a true experience with God!

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ! Praise God for His unspeakable gift!

2 Corinthians 9:15 (KJV)
Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift.

2 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Peter 1:8 (KJV)
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

ESchaible, I agree with the many scriptures that you posted and a lot of your interpretation except where you incorrectly criticize a persons experience with God according to the scriptures.

To clarify the experience I received from the Lord just as the apostles and others received from the Lord, it was not the tongues that was most important to me but the experience of the baptism that caused the tongues. The baptism I received was so very powerful. It was power from on high like I had never received before.

It’s was…
Acts 1:8 (KJV) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus gave me power to witness for Him like never before. I receive such a boldness without fear. I walked to, witness to and prayed for many people. I exalted my Lord Jesus Christ like never before. I could tell you many things that the Holy Spirit led me to do but you wouldn’t understand because you lean to your own understanding.

Ephesians 3:20-21 (KJV) 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

You have not bothered me or disturbed me from believing what I have received from the Lord Jesus. I feel sorry for anyone who think they know so much but know so little of Christ and what He can do in a persons life.

I preach the full gospel of Christ. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes…For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith.

I preach and teach Romans chapters 1-8 and can quote from memory many verses as well as many other verses in scripture because I love the Word of God.

I preach the blood, the cross and the spirit-filled life.

Without holiness no man will see the Lord!

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I feel like shouting the name of Jesus! Hallelujah! He is worthy of all praise!

We must be born again from above or we will never enter into the kingdom of God!

Good night to all the brethren who love our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
rbanks

Quote: So I think to summarize, if your "testimony" and your "witness for Jesus" is a story of your subjective spiritual experiences

I am going to Sermonindex, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to there except that the Holy Spirit testifies, that I will be mocked and persecuted, they will lie about you and say all sorts of evil things against you and falsely accuse you because you are my followers.

Because these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

Edited

Re-subscribing to this one too. May everyone involved (this is enfluenced by brother Evan's position - but also aimed at cautioning other thread participants) have a look at this:

Let's see Paul's response in a similar situation:

"1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

And the last and very IMPORTANT bit:

"11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing."

So many may have here become fools in glorying (which indeed is not expedient) about their experiences, but the angle our sister came from warranted or compelled them just as Paul felt. I hope you understand this, brother Evan.

PS: 2 Cor. 12 (I encourage reading the entire chapter where possible)

You must look deeper into what Evan is saying, what he says, and he is not the only one he is parroting what many cessationist say to discredit the gifts of the spirit, and in particular speaking in tounges. They like Evan say our experiences are personal opinions and feelings rather than on facts. Now I have also noticed this in other circles, I have even heard that the WEF are funding cessationist websites, I have no proof of that yet. But if you come across anything please let me know.

Quote: Scripture is painfully obvious in this, to argue that we are commanded, or anywhere told to preach our experiences to people is to argue with scripture.

Can you see the subtle twist? The accusation is we are "preaching our experiences”

Let’s consider this scripture first 1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
Scripture says we should always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope. Lets keep that in mind when someone comes along in an attempt to shut things down.

The Start of the Testimony: Praise God...what gives me great faith is the fact that God Is...that He is with me... and has truly saved me...it is in the knowing....and knowing that I have received the witness of His Spirit.

Right at the start what does he say he is declaring a the reason for his hope ”“ "””””Christ in me”””””

But Evan ignores this to falsely accuse the brother, "preaching our experiences” he says why because he dared on to mention speaking in tounges.

What is an experience: it is an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone. (such a wicked thing). There is nothing wrong with experiences, the bible is full of experiences, which have been documented and kept as proof through the power of the Holy Spirit.

In the Bible, a witness is basically someone who sees something important or amazing. And if this person begins to share what they've seen, we call this "bearing witness,”.

To bear witness is a legal term - to affirm that one has seen or heard or experienced (going to define experience - an event or occurrence which leaves an impression on someone.) in a court. According to the Jewish law, and most countries based Judeo/Christian law it requires proof or confirmation of any truth or of any claim or crime, by two witnesses.

Let’s look at an experience in the bible; the Samaritan woman at the well and Jesus asks for a drink.

What does this Samaritan woman do after her experience; Come, see a man, who told me all things that ever I did: can this be the Christ? She becomes a witness to what happen at the well through her experience.

How all this is smoke and mirrors covering up the real issue which goes deeper. What does Speaking in Tongues signify and what can it accomplish that it strikes fear and anger in those who have not received its power?

We have seen the accusation that tounges are demonic. We have seen some writing in tounges to mock us, we have seen the false accusation of we are preaching experiences.

We know the Modus operandi of Satan is false accusation, mockery. So, it should be to no surprise when I imply that this hatred originates with the Devil and there are obvious reasons why the devil hates the gift of Speaking in Tongues.

1. Speaking in Tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism
of the Holy Ghost
2. Speaking in Tongues edifies the believer
3. Speaking in Tongues strengthens the Church
4. Speaking in Tongues is divine interaction with God
5. Speaking in Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever
6. Speaking in Tongues is a prayer language to God
7. Speaking in Tongues confuses the enemy

I Praise God for you brother Colin…

I love reading your posts! God has given you the gift of teaching through the Holy Spirit rightly dividing the truth from the Word of God!

I have truly enjoyed posting and reading the truth on this thread!

Blessings,
rbanks

God can greatly use our personal testimonies, and when a new convert who is on fire shares their experience of salvation or Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Lord can use this to spread the fire to others. An example of this is what took place in the beginning of the Welsh Revival among the young people.

"Will You not revive us again, that Your people may rejoice in You?"
”‹Psalm 85:6

During a recent ministry trip to Wales, I had the privilege of being a speaker at a congress and preaching in a Welsh church. They were celebrating the Centenary of the Welsh Revival of 1904 to 1905.

Joseph Jenkins, a minister in New Quay, Cardiganshire had been seeking a deeper devotional life with the Lord and had experienced an intense love of God in his life. On 1 January 1904, he had a Deeper Spiritual Life Convention, encouraging others to seek the fire of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

"I LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL MY HEART!
On the 14th February 1904, at a Sunday church service, a 16-year-old girl, Florrie Evans stood to her feet and publicly confessed: "I love the Lord Jesus with all my heart." As she spoke these words, the Holy Spirit seemed to fill the meeting.

Many saw this as the beginning of the Revival. After church meetings were held to seek the Lord's presence and empowerment and many young people, particularly girls and women in their teens and early twenties, began spending extended periods of time in intense prayer, seeking the Lord's face!”

Colin,

I guess the best way for me to completely diffuse your entire rant is to simply tell you I have, and do speak in tongues as the Holy Spirit wills - and have operated and still do operate in many of the gifts, all as the Holy Spirit wills. In fact, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I have operated in all of the gifts mentioned at some point in my life, again, as the Spirit of Christ within me wills and manifests them.

"Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul. I cried to him with my mouth, and high praise was on my tongue. If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.” (Psalms 66:16-18)

The difference is the context of the telling - does it glorify Jesus and point men to Him and whatever it is that He chooses the give them - or is it to self and a prejudicial view that "you need what I have or you don't have anything".

Pointing men to your experience is to tell them that what God has done for you is a cookie cutter experience to what all men need - this includes tongues, or any other gift. The proof of this is the prophecy that was fulfilled on Pentecost, and that it didn't even include what you and many say is the sole manifestation of someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit - tongues.

I'll bow out of this, because in telling everyone I am a "false accuser", you have falsely accused me.

""Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” (Matthew 7:1-6)

"lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you"

Interesting how that teaching of Jesus plays out exactly when hypocrisy is involved.

1. As I tried to show, brother Evan, Paul knew when it was time to be a fool and I wish you had seen that this thread was such. And shared your experience earliest - or at least on your 1st post on the thread. But you did not, instead you went to censor generically seemly and left the brethren to guess which side of the fence you might be in.

2. If you still feel you are justified, then chances are you did not read all posts in the thread so that you make informed comments or rebukes.

3. Like I said, brothers felt condemned by the sister's presented position. I would say we felt the way folks are said to have felt when they read that Jessy Pen and Evan Roberts book. So the presented experiences and scriptures were in defense largely.

4. When Paul thought his audience were babes, he did not shut up, he spoke to them as babes (and withheld the meaty matters - until such a time as they should prove ready therefor).

PS. I do not think there is anyone regular here on SI who is knowingly seeking their own glory.

Mr Ravenhill is said to have witnessed devine healing for one in his ministry - but he barely spoke about it if anyone ever heard him do. When he was asked why, he said he was too busy preaching Jesus.

While that is very commendable, if any would arise and claim Christ did not heal divinely any longer, Mr Ravehill would have no valid choice but to testify his experiences of devine healing. When John sent to ask if Jesus was Christ, he said go tell John the blind see, ...

Kervin said:
"1. As I tried to show, brother Evan, Paul knew when it was time to be a fool and I wish you had seen that this thread was such. And shared your experience earliest - or at least on your 1st post on the thread. But you did not, instead you went to censor generically seemly and left the brethren to guess which side of the fence you might be in."

That is the whole problem, there should only be one "side of the fence". The fact that this issue makes that question even arise is proof it is fleshly and based on carnality.

I should not have to share any subjective experience to be welcomed by "brethren" who claim service to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I stand and fall before only one, the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God and Savior Jesus Christ. Our fellowship is with the Him, and there is no fellowship between light and darkness - fellowship isn't shared between men, it is a shared communion with God, together with others. We don't find fellowship in each other, we share fellowship together with God.

My experiences with God hold no bearing in fellowship - and if they do I am wrong. If I were to look at someone who walks with My Lord and say they didn't because they haven't had borne the same crosses I have, experienced the same specific manifestations of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit I have, or any other subjective thing that is likely unique to my relationship to my Lord, I am falling into the devils trap of self exaltation.

There is no difference between the frenzy and fanaticism found in this thread and the frenzy and fanaticism found in a cessationist camp. It's the same divisive and sectarian mindset. It always bases the reality of God in experience (lack of experience is still experience and no different).

Jesus is always politely asked to have a seat while the grown ups discuss things that actually matter.

I'm content with being a simple child, even if others take that as being a "babe" in Christ. The longer I walk with God, the more I realize that the only thing that really matters is what matters to God the Father - ie. God the Son, Jesus Christ and His glorification by the Holy Spirit, and the unity of His true people through the love of God.

You keep bringing up Paul speaking foolishly and sharing his experiences. He had to do that because he was addressing people who were walking in carnality - and since you've said I should have spoken as a fool, sharing my experiences earlier, what does that say about the participants of this thread?

As I said, this thread is in small what Corinth was in large - carnality parading itself as spirituality.

Accuse me of anything you like, but as I said before, which is true of us all, we stand or fall before Jesus Christ - and your fanatical threads on spiritual gifts, your defense of the same, it all goes out the window because when you step away from the forum, who you truly are deep within when no one else is looking, THAT is who you are in the all seeing eyes of Jesus Christ, the great God and Savior.

Staying out of this would be easy, but a few comments already known are needed as essential reminders to one and all.

Before that, Evan is absolutely right but needs no defense.

If this whole conversation and far too many others were truly about witnessing and demonstrating God's reality and power, each of you would be describing your experiences with a lot more intensity and regularity mostly if not only about how God in the power of the Spirit has made you more Christlike. Or how God had moved you in your poverty and affliction as you gave yourself to the Lord to give all you had and then some with joy to meet the needs of the saints. Yet we know that such talk would mostly be inappropriate if spoken about ourselves. Someone else we would hope might tell that story about us to declare the manifest expression of the Spirit in supernatural powers and outpourings of love and joy in suffering and affliction and most profitably, spiritual maturity and transformation. Those are the stories that Paul tells, that the writer of Hebrews tells, that Jesus tells.

But not us. We are more mature than that. We are already kings. We have to go to the deeper things of God. (Tongue in cheek) Then to make it worse, we hide our self absorption
and focus on the not plain and not main things under the banner of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and its defense. That is on its face a misdirection and face painting.

Undeniably, Pentecost (the outpouring of the promised Spirit) was marked far far more by these manifestations that the church sorely needs focus on today :

1) Peter's unction in preaching the Gospel as the Spirit was upon Him and thousands got saved.

2) A church devoting themselves whole heartedly without distraction to the Apostles' doctrine (learning, living and sharing) , whole hearted unmixed devotion to the fellowship (or to one another) evidenced by selling all they had to care for one anothers' profound needs, whole hearted devotion to gathering together daily at great personal cost for the sake of the Body, and whole hearted devotion to corporate prayer with prayers focused on the needs of the Body and on encouragement and strengthening of the Body and on receiving the power to be witnesses of Jesus in word, character and deed.

3) Signs and wonders being done mostly by the Apostles to meet needs but not mostly as a demonstration of supernatural power but of a demonstration of compassion if you examine the treatment of signs in the telling of the Spirit in Acts.

4). The dramatic and very public killing of Annanias and Sapphira for hypocrisy. That certainly got some peoples' attention. What about praying for that kind of testimony where God won't tolerate hypocrisy among his people, that what they do must critically match what they say or else somebody is going to die.... Jesus hated hypocrisy and loved integrity of heart or men without guile. Isn't the Spirit here in a primary way to punish the former and create the latter? Most of you would say no. That isn't a big concern of the Spirit.

Those are just facts. Look at the book of Acts and see if these things are not so.

The mention of tongues in Acts was Biblically most definitely not about the second basptism that some obsess with. ( I have had dozens and dozens of His outpourings in love, joy and all gifts over a few decades just to show I'm not anti gifts or fillings). The tongue displays mentioned in Acts had to deal with speaking in languages that the crowd could hear the Gospel clearly through, proof that the Gentiles were included in the Kingdom and to show the difference or distinction between the baptism of repentance of John the Baptist and the spiritual baptism (not the outward cleaning) of Jesus which was descriptive of but not prescriptive of the new life in the promise of the Spirit ( one testimony). That is just Biblical. The Spirit of life is a Spirit of love and that was shed abroad in the first believers' hearts. All of them for the record.

Back to why I comment at all. This and many other threads relate to a state of mind and focus that I find to be a total distraction to the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit's work in everything and is more indefensibly a demonstration, because of its intensity in volume, on self. It's always about "what I have suffered for the sake of the Lord", "what I am waiting for or longing for for me", "what I was told about me", "what I experienced in closeness to God", "what I think is important" or "what I define as the most spiritual". All most easily recognized as self focus. Again, how many have testified to receiving a a love and joy that was inextricably and directly connected to devotion to the Body, sacrifice and suffering for the Body? How many have testified that they are soul sick until their earthly life can be poured out on the faith of others and Christ being formed in others ? That is how Scripture most often describes the manifestation of the Spirit. But not us. No, we have entered into super spiritual territory that goes beyond all that pedestrian display or conversation of living and dying for others. It's all about the "wow" and comparing wows.

But, if I posted repeatedly telling everyone how sacrificial I was in loving the saints, you would say I was boasting or being self righteous. You know it is true. But if we boast about how special the Spirit has treated us in spiritual gifting or private experience we are somehow not boasting but super spiritual.

This is the crux of the matter and the rebuke of the Lord:

I challenge everyone, tell us all how the Spirit has transformed you into the likeness of Christ, how you spend your days completely and whole heartedly devoted to learning and living out the Apostles doctrine and sharing it with others, how you are whole heartedly devoted to the saints and their needs, how you are whole heartedly devoted to personally gathering day in and day out with the saints for their encouragement and growth, how you are devoted to corporate prayer mostly and primarily for the saints and how the leaven of hypocrisy (saying what and how much you know but not having it be real in your life), is so hated that you would rather have God take you out than have that testimony of hypocrisy be yours to the world or Jesus. That is the remarkable and most edifying and most representative work of the Spirit that the immature church and the world need. Then, we can start talking about ecstatic experiences as a confirmation of the Spirit rather than it being the essence of Him. If you have problems witnessing about yourself this way, enough said.

As 'super spiritual' as the debate may seem about which gifts are best or a back and forth about personal experiences may seem, it is all a gonging cymbal to God and most definitely not profitable in the least compared to what never passes away. Paul spends far more time talking about purging the church of its evil amongst the brethern as love to preserve the Body and ridding itself of its hypocrisy of not dealing with evil in the holy body of Christ to protect the reputation of Christ than he does on gifts. Just look it up.

That's not the Lord's rebuke from me, but it is the rebuking voice from the most gifted, most anointed and most used saint of the Spirit compared to all on this forum. Devote yourselves, your time and your words to imitate him.

Here's a passage to lock hold on:

Now, brothers and sisters, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,

that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.

For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave voluntarily, begging us with much urging for the favor [fn]of participation in the [fn]support of the saints, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.

It would be great if we could hear a few testimonies about how God pouring His Spirit out on you has blessed others no matter how you felt about the experience, only focusing on and speaking about how the Spirit worked through you only to bless others. How you begged God or some leader for the privilege of going deep in poverty to bless the saints. That is the purpose of the Spirit and Christ after all. Humility. Most testimonies I've read point to and are about self even if they thank God for it and that is not humility, it's more like the proud Pharisee who said, "thank God I'm not like those other'Christians', I speak in tongues".

BTW, tongues and ecstatic private or corporate personal spiritual experiences cost you nothing except perhaps being cleansed or emptied of self which is not a cost at all. Love costs everything. Is it any wonder where we focus ?

A further word of extreme caution when speaking of tongues. The easiest gifts for the enemy to counterfeit are tongues, whether foreign language or unknown, words of knowledge about someone's life, certain predictions of the future, and certain signs and wonders, including someone recovering from a fatal head wound.

I say that to not discourage seeking the gifts, but if you pursue them in love and a desire to build up the body, there is no room for the counterfeit to flourish.

Likewise, if tongues can be easily imitated (by the flesh) or much more easily counterfeited by the demons, then tongues themselves, by definition, cannot be concrete proof of anything. Sorry to the Pentecostal among us.

The Holy Spirit says a couple of things about concrete proof and sure evidence of the manifest presence of the Spirit. First, no one can confess with their mouth, believe in their heart and show by their life that Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit is manifest. Second, the whole world will know that we are of the Spirit because we have unity of the faith working through a love mirroring the Father's love for Jesus that we have and show for one another.

Finally, the Spirit says all, including God, will know you are walking by the Spirit when your life matches the Word and is a likeness in mind, heart and will to Christ. The proof is in the life and not merely the mouth, whether of tongues, declarations or creeds.

You want proof of someone being in and full of the Spirit. Use the proofs announced most clearly by the Spirit in Scripture which cannot be imitated, counterfeited and won't be because the flesh nor demons would ever desire do it.

The Pentecostal proof is not the Lord's proof. That cannot be argued as all tongues, known and unknown languages, can easily be counterfeited and imitated. Therefore, by definition, it can't be proof.

Glossolalia existed in the ancient world, way before the first century, before the New Testament was written. The oracle at Delphi practised this. Herodotus and Virgil mention this phenomenon. African voodoo cults have done it for centuries. Mormons practice it as well.

I do believe tongues, both xenoglossia (speaking in a known language without learning it) and glossolalia (speaking in an unknown language) can both be gifts of the Holy Spirit.

We have to remember, though, that Satan is a master counterfeiter, and this is the easiest gift to fake.

It is frightening to me that so many people look to signs and wonders to prove Christianity, when Jesus so clearly said that a "wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign" (Matthew 16:4); He said that even someone rising from the dead would not convince an unbeliever (Luke 16:31), instead He tells us to look to the scriptures; He said that many, many people would tell Him on the day of judgment that they had worked miracles in His name, and He does not deny they did, but He does say that He never knew them; the scriptures warn us that false prophets can do miracles through demonic power; it happened before the Exodus from Egypt, it happened during the time of the Kings, it happened during the time of the apostles, and it will happen in the end times during the tribulation period.

Can God do miracles? Of course! But the ministry of the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come (John 16:8.)

The holy spirit functions mostly through the gifts of himself, to quench the gifts of the Spirit is to quench the spirit himself.

To downplay and speak against the gifts of the spirit, is to speak against the gift of the spirit.

This is just a manifestation of pride and carnality, to suggest that a human has the ability to grow and mature without the graces and help that were provided but the father and the son.

The apostle Paul knew how vital the gifts were this is why he said earnestly covet the greater gifts, and I wish you all spoke in tongues.

True biblical Christianity has never functioned without spiritual gifts, but dead liberal, or pharisaical, legalistic forms of Christianity hate the mention and expression of these gifts and always have.

Separating the holy spirit from his own gifts is folly and contradiction in the greatest terms.

Gary said: "The holy spirit functions mostly through the gifts of himself, to quench the gifts of the Spirit is to quench the spirit himself."

1Jo 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Of course you already knew this verse. And you know this one as well.

2Th 2:9

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders,

And you know this verse:

Act 16:16
It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave woman who had a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing great profit to her masters by fortune-telling.

And you know this one as well:

Matthew 24:24

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

All those words of warning about the false giftings and signs are the words of the Spirit.

Gary, it is you who is quenching the Spirit's warnings to the churches and individuals to be careful to discern the false from the true and to test the spirits so that His people aren't deceived. We are to THEREAFTER, (after testing) then to cling to what is good and shun what is false. I am quite sure you know all this so I'm trying to understand your motives in calling the instruction for care by "testing" the same thing as "quenching". Not Biblical. It is the Spirit who gives discernment and the command to test the spirits so the quenching that is actually being advocated is yours. I ask that you exercise some discernment when others give Biblical answers and counsel to His people on being discerning.

There are many, many reputable charismatics and pentecostals who have publicly declared and urged their communities to do a much better job at and to be much more intentional, serious and spiritual about discernment of the false and true spirits. This is not an anti-gift issue but a protect the flock issue.

Lastly, the Holy Spirit in no uncertain Scriptural terms does not function "mostly through his gifts". That is the most myopic and dull understanding of the role and work of the Spirit in the world, in the church and in individual believers that I've heard in a long while. That is not merely wrong but spiritually damaging.

Quite revealing though.

If you read the letters of Paul you'll see clearly that the five fold ministry and other main ministries within the church all function through the gifts of the spirit and then when it comes to normal Christians exhorting, encouraging praying and practicing healing, being there for one another in those types of special needs this is all done through the ministering of the holy spirit the holy spirit is the minister of all the Grace's that come through the son.

Prophecy which is designed to build up an edify the body of Christ is a gift of the spirit the holy spirit functions through that gift, exhorting is another gift of the spirit and obviously the holy spirit functions through that gifting to encourage and build up, healing functions through the same type of gifting, teaching functions through the same gift of the holy spirit, evangelism and preaching for the saving of souls is manifested through a gift of the spirit and an anointing of the spirit and a Pacific manifestation of the same spirit, not to mention tongues or the words of knowledge or the words of wisdom and mercy which are all gifts of the holy spirit or manifestations of the holy spirit whatever way you want to express that.

The holy spirit was given as the comforter and the helper and the gifts of the holy spirit a part of who he is.

This is the prescribed and the way God operates through his church, when you take out the gifts of the holy spirit you've taken out the holy spirit and then everything is just done in the flesh you have dry Pharisaical religion and liberal dead Christianity and these are two of the main groups of people who function without the holy spirit You have nothing But dead religion and at worst you have religious demonic spirits operating through legalists and seductive spirits operating through liberal Christianity which is not Christianity in its essence demonic doctrines.

You're 100% right Robert I know those verses extremely well the Apostle Paul's teaching and letters are my favorite.

The Apostle Paul directly dealt with the idea of quenching the spirit and what he was dealing with directly was despising prophecy and forbidding tongues people having a low view and speaking against the gifts of the holy spirit and so whenever people speak against the gifts of the spirit for whatever need jerk reaction they may be experiencing because of their own hurts or for whatever other reason just hate for other Christians can be part of the reason what they're doing is quenching the holy spirit in their own life, and normally how that manifests itself is many of the gifts not operating in one's life and not experiencing any revival in their life.

I'm sorry if you felt that this was directed at you it wasn't directed at anyone it was just a general comment about speaking against the holy spirit, in the days of Christ it was the Pharisees and Sadducees that spoke against the gifts of the spirit or the manifestations of the spirit in the life of Christ.

In the early Christians experienced much the same and so when people take on the mantle of a pharisee or a Sadducees so to speak and attack what the holy spirit is doing and downplay the holy spirit and who he is and how he expresses himself through his children and through his church some people have more in common with them than they do biblical Christianity (speaking generally).

I don't think it's a dull understanding because biblically speaking the Apostle Paul said the preaching of the gospel was the way that people get born again and saved to begin with how shall they hear and unless someone preaches and how shall they preach unless they are sent and that is done through the gifting of the holy spirit and the anointing of the spirit that's on someone's life who's exercising the gift of preaching, I said mostly I'm not saying that he's only operates through that way because God is Sovereign and people can be born again and saved without the means of a person preaching but it's not the general way that God has prescribed the church to function, preaching and teaching, exhorting encouraging, prophesying speaking through the gifts of the word of wisdom and the gifts of the word of knowledge these are all prescribed by the holy spirit through the Apostle Paul as the way the church functions so like I said before it is mostly and it's the primary way that we all experience growth and learn and people that seem to lessen that prescribed way or rejected or downplay it is really speaking against the word of God and quenching the spirit in their own life and like I said before that's a manifestation of pride to think that you can have some inherent way of functioning without the gifts of the spirit through your own internal capacity.

Communicating in this forum with any words that have been spoken that are worth a grain of salt have been spoken through a gifting of the holy spirit whether it be exhortation or teaching or prophecy and the big problem is that when people speak through a gifting which we all do we forget that it's not a Grace or a capacity that we have as a human but it's a gifting and manifestation of the spirit and like the Apostle Paul said what do you have that you did not receive and if you have received that why do you boast as though you did not receive it, the apostle Paul said let him who speaks let him speak the oracles of God the intention that we would speak through the giftings constantly and use the holy spirit's anointing is a given by the Apostle Paul I pray that we remember that when we speak anything that's got any sort of wisdom or encouragement in it it's not us but it's the holy spirit speaking through us giving us the words to speak tho it be through a clay imperfect vessel. (Speaking generally)

Probably worth remembering that this verse is also from pauls letters to the church at Corinth.

19 But I will come to you shortly if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only what these arrogant people are saying, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of POWER.

The demonstration of power gifts of the spirit is also a demonstration of the kingdom of God on the earth

The fruits of the spirit are essential but we are not to separate from the power and the gifts. But demonstrations of power (dunamis) will actually serve to cause the fear of God and bring deliverance and turn become a seedbed for producing fruit of the spirit.

4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of [b]human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Here we see Paul using his ascension gift ministry office with spiritual gifts to demonstrate the Gosple, so that it will produce faith which is a most vital fruit of the spirit.

Imagine that, our faith (Trust and belief) should be in a demonstration of power through spiritual manifestation and also the message of the atonement (together).

Reinhart Bonke was a good example of an evangelist who practiced this.

I do not know about you brother Evan but my ultimate goal here on SI is to edify and be edified. How this is archieved may not be very straight forward but this does not change the ultimate goal.

You were not always where you are today but had to get there. And other people had to be part of that journey with you (the many books you said you read etc). There should be many here who could appreciate that walking alongside with. Unless if I am missing something, this thread together with the other on "Heresy of..." have somewhat been about sister Brenda purporting that the tongues we present needs amendment.

If the SI forum body was a structured church during Paul's time, I expect this matter would have ended up on the elders' hands. But the SI discussions are not thus structured. Which makes it difficult to address sensitive matters such as these - both babes and the matured are alike welcomed to add their 2 cents here on SI discussions. Or is it not? So may be we should look at that first.

@brother Robert. You may not already know but this thread has been the offspring of other previous ones. Discussing tongues explicitly was nessary because we ran into a situation where it prevented us from being able to pray together (is desire for prayer not a sign of Christ-like virtue?). What do you do when that happens? Leave off and go and pray with those who have no issue? Or seek to show so far as you can how the tongues presented are scriptural? That is another thing I feel brother Evan is missing or forgot.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this without being suspicious of intentions, but:

I DO NOT REFUSE TO PRAY WITH CHARISMATICS OR OTHERS WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH ME OVER TONGUES AND HAVE BEEN DOING SO IN MY LOCALITY.

I do however, draw away from those where I have felt the Holy Spirit lead me.

No need to shout it, sister Brenda as you are the one who said you minded in the first place. If it is so, then it is all well from me.

What I recall is that you chose to remain silent when I last brought your two contradictory statements.

I do not know, it may be worth withdrawing from SI discussions for me if its lack of Church structure results in us getting into fights that helplessly gets out hands like this.

The subject is closed.

Quote: I love reading your posts! God has given you the gift of teaching through the Holy Spirit rightly dividing the truth from the Word of God!

Well can you imagine ”“ I am dyslexic and really struggle with reading and writing, trying to spell the word Cessationism is a task on its own, I was praying away (In tounges) while typing the post, so I am glad that some have come clean on this on their position. So praise God it seems that he answered my prayer.

We must be careful not to parrot what other would say about Charismatic/Pentecostal and become an accuser of the brethren. I have never understood the boxing of Christians, I can remember being asked as young Christian what kind of Christian are you. I was confused what did they mean, the only reply that I could think to answer was the "born again type”.

Quote: Like I said, brothers felt condemned by the sister's presented position. I would say we felt the way folks are said to have felt when they read that Jessy Pen and Evan Roberts book.

The whole reason for this thread was a defence of tounges against the statement that tounges are demonic.

Yet we still see comments like "The easiest gifts for the enemy to counterfeit are tongues” with no proof on why they are easiest to counterfeit. Or someone who gives a couple of paragraphs about false tounges then doesn’t provide a link to any site. Then the next comes along and parrots the same "We have to remember, though, that Satan is a master counterfeiter, and this is the easiest gift to fake”

It is like saying that Jesus cast out Devils by the power of Beelzebub, do Pentecostal / Charismatic speak in tounges by the power of Beelzebub?

Quote: You want proof of someone being in and full of the Spirit.

No - the question of this whole thread has been are tounges are demonic.

So, the questions I would like CofG and drifter is

1. Do you speak in tounges ”“ (one has answered)
2. Do you believe that tounges are demonic,
3. Do Pentecostal / Charismatic speak in tounges by the power
of Beelzebub?
4. Where is the proof of your statements, scriptures, or
documented proof. ”“ That the easiest gift for the enemy to
counterfeit are tongues.

The original poster shared a book written by the Mystic Jesse Pen Lewis and know believes tounges are demonic, this is some of the fall out that after the Welsh Revival.

All I want to know is if you were that information comes from.

Colin

Anyone who has been in a crazy meeting that has a demonic atmosphere can say beyond a doubt where the tongues come from. Or watched one of the many videos of the extremists which many charismatics themselves have denounced.

I am sure that many here will agree that not all of the tongue speaking is genuine - it was discussed previously.

There seems to be a serious lack of communication here but again in capitals:

I DO NOT SAY THAT ALL GLOSSALAIA IS DEMONIC.

Some I am sure is from people who do it to fit in, which I have read from charismatics is common, so is fleshy.

@brother Colin. I admittedly struggled to hear some of your words on the shared testimony video and thought is was some variant of UK accents. Now better understand and still belss God for your Christian person.

PS. I personally do not refuse that there is counterfeit but I ever ask those interested to assess the fruits (one's presented Christian virtues)

PS. But the sad but evedent issue is that our sister does not seem capable of properly identifying worthy Christian fruits from individuals. Then how else shall we be able to to tell if something is demonic or from the true Spirit?

Colin, I never said that I believe all tongues are of demonic origin. Indeed, if you read my posts, I say repeatedly that tongues can be a true gift of God.

The fact that some pre Christian cults used ecstatic utterance, or "glossolalia", if you like, in their rituals, is easy to look up for anyone with an internet connection.

Here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/glossolalia

https://charlesasullivan.com/1904/glossolalia-ecstasy-tongues/

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Glossolalia

Edit

Moses placed his rod down and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh's magicians placed theirs down and they became serpents too. Then Moses' swallowed those of the magicians. Counterfeit is there - but it is possible to see God's in the midst.

"What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:11-13)

God gives good gifts to those that ask, and it is the will of God that His children would be filled with the Holy Spirit, abiding in Christ, having the Word dwelling within us richly, bringing forth much fruit, pursuing love, and desiring spiritual gifts for the building up of the Body of Christ.

Jesus said that they will know you are my disciples because you have love one to another.

We need to operate in the Love of Christ toward one another.

We should all be about edifying one another instead of trying to tear down.

I admit I haven’t read all of this thread but saw the title "on tongues” and knew what God had done in my life which is biblical.

I realize some may of took it that I was magnifying myself and my experience but I honestly felt that I was praising God who gave me the experience.

We can none have the new birth nor the Holy Spirit without the experience of receiving it.

I also know that the devil is real and that there are counterfeits to the real.

But each person has to know that he/she has a real experience with God. We must know that we know whom we have believed and also be persuaded that He is able to keep that which He has committed unto us until that day.

Paul knew his experience and testimony was real according to the Word of God and we must know also!

I love you all!

Blessings,
rbanks

"and desiring spiritual gifts for the building up of the Body of Christ."

Amen.

And Amen rbanks. Admitting not to have read the entire thread is appreciated and easily forgivable.

This is a reply to Brenda post by Narrowpath

you can find it here

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=66561&forum=40

Brenda,

you claim to be entirely sanctified, but claim Evan Roberts was demonized, and you say that tongues opens the door for demons in a believer.

First of all, there are other sources that report that Evan Roberts simply withdrew to a life of intercession.
Do you know the absolute truth about it?

Secondly, tongues open doors for demons? I know there are demonic tongues and have heard them, but tongues in itself do not lead to demonization. Where do you find that?

Somethings not right here.

Colin,

I'll just say it - you are speaking as a child, arguing as a child, reasoning as a child. You need to put childish ways behind you and grow up. You're also dragging immature saints down with you because of your fleshly zeal.

The proof of your self seeking is the people you choose to respond to, you're gobbling up the praise of those that are immature and love the hype of it, it feels good to the flesh. You won't address the posts that might make you be honest with yourself and God - because at this point pride means you have to dig in your heels.

These debates are fleshly and titillating and make you feel like your accomplishing something because you have a cause to stand up for - it's all childish, pointless, and grievous to the Holy Spirit.

Seek the Lord Colin, because you are on a dangerous path and are already hardened to brothers who are trying to show you the path.

by billy1980
Yes, dear sister there are varieties! How Wonderful is our beloved Christ! He gave gifts to us, and He through His Spirit chooses, however we can ask, it is biblically permissionable. But do all speak in tongues no, are all prophets no and we could keep going with the no concerning Christ giftings through His precious Spirit, and our Heavenly Father.

verse 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Ps 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and a shield; the LORD gives grace and glory; HE WITHHOLDS NO GOOD THING FROM THOSE who walk with integrity.

Matthew 7:11 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven GIVE GOOD THINGS TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM!

Psalm 34:10 Young lions go lacking and hungry, but those who SEEK THE LORD LACKS NO GOOD THING.

Examples:
I had a best friend who said to me, "My grandma and grandpa didn't need it, so I don't either." Oh but who did she call to come and pray over her house to cast out any demonic spirits in it? Moi, that's who.

I also have a Baptist friend who received the baptism in her prayer room with the evidence of speaking in tongues and has literally told no one in 5 years (only me).

So, my personal take on it verses 11 and 30, that some doesn't want the gift(s) and some do. But it IS available to those who truly want them and seek and ask for them!

God bless

Won't you, for Christ's sake, address sister Brenda's position/posts as well, brother Evan? Or you honestly have nothing to say about her position or arguments? As this whole thread is largely (if not entirely) between several brethren and her? We should all be happy to put this topic to rest but your comments seems to leave sister Brenda out. Are you perhaps implying you are on her side?

PS. By side I mean the same understanding.

Colin, I would listen to Evan. I don't understand your point of quoting narrowpath.

I think brother Colin is simply saying the quoted text is relevant to this thread as well. I still wish to hear brother Evan's comment on our sister's position for one. Especially as one who speaks in tongues as the Spirit give him utterance as well.

He has already stated his position. He speaks in tongues. But he is not trying to control people. He accepts that I don't agree with him on this point which others here seems unable to do and act like adults.

Sister it was necessary to remind you about where the dispute started because for a moment there we would seem to be rejecting the exhortation about charitability that you quoted from Paul.

Not that I want to insist that you pray with me (or agree with me) in that sense. So it is all well, especially since you have said it that you do not mind praying with Charismatics/Pentecostals.

We need to be charitable toward one another!

1 Corinthians 8:1-3 (KJV) 1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

The Wisdom from Above

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." (James 3:13-18)

[We need to be charitable toward one another!]

Amen !

Zac Poonen once said, if you are not able to control your mother tongue
there is no point to speak with an
other tongue.

Some words posted here are hurtful and mean.
They are archived on a server, but also archived by God.
Mind you, here are people you have to spend eternity with.

As for the gifts of the spirit,
tongues is small gift,
prophecy is bigger,
conviction is even more precious
and love is the greatest.

If anyone cares about the younger believer then they should be confronting these issue, rather than pontificating.

Since no one took the time to look...

Quote by Brenda: I came across JPL about a year before I was sanctified or illumined by the Lord in 1990 and it was instrumental in me seeking Him this way and she was a deeply spiritual woman and used by God to speak to me through a leaflet called "The pathway to life in God". It had a profound effect on me. Later "The Normal Christian Life" Nee, did the trick and I entered into His rest.

What do mean by illumined - ????
Jesse Pen Lewis is a Quaker / A Mason they speak about being illumined. I have added a little more about Jessie.

Quote by Brenda: Roberts was said to have been kept, imprisoned practically, by her, yet after she died and he had left to live on his own, he still withdrew from society and continued in his sick mental condition. Everything about him reeks of demons. I have known others destroyed by the Pentecostal/charismatic movement.

Evan Roberts reeked of Demons.
How does Evan Roberts reeking of demons have anything do with the Pentecostal/charismatic movement?

Quote: The book "War on the Saints" is an excellent description of how the devil had infiltrated the Pentecostal Movement and still is there fooling people.

Quote from Brenda from the book she calls excellent:

Here is not any doubt but that there is a true work of the Spirit of God in the Movement, and souls will be saved wherever the Gospel is proclaimed. But the widespread testimony to a concurrent stream of a working of demons, producing experiences in the body which are frequently not even a "counterfeit,” but a parody of the true work of the Holy Spirit, together with erroneous teachings centered primarily around the experience of physical manifestations, shows that there is some course of action, or line of teaching in the Movement, that lends itself too easily to counterfeit. Briefly, the line between the "true” and the "counterfeit” is too fine for safety, at a time when the evil supernatural is so actively at work in the world around."

She began to speak more strongly against the movement, particularly the "passivity” of its followers.46 Writing in The Overcomer, Penn-Lewis reached the conclusion that ". . . evil spirits can, and do, find entry to the bodies or minds of true children of God, and that the door has been peculiarly opened to them through the medium of ‘Tongues.’ . . .// An Hour of Peril. 1908 Jessie Penn-Lewis

Did you take the time to read it - Demons enter through the medium of ‘Tongues’

Hopefully reading below you'll begin to understand what this woman JPL is and that you see the influence she has had on Brenda.

https://faithsaves.net/jessie-penn-lewis/

The same spirit that moved Guyon to write by inspiration””which, unfortunately, was the very god of this world that worked in Hindu and other pagan mystics, and that authored Rome’s many wretched heresies, such as justification by imparted righteousness, salvation by works, transubstantiation, baptismal regeneration, image worship, and the acceptance of non-canonical Apocrypha as inspired””also moved Jessie Penn-Lewis, in accordance with the Quaker doctrine of the Inner Light, to write by inspiration. Penn-Lewis’ writings were thus nothing but "determined obedience to the ‘heavenly vision,’” and, she said, "I cannot write one sentence unless I receive it from God” by "inspiration,” thus producing her "Overcomer Literature” in this manner.[573] For example, by means of a "special vision,” she described how she had one of her books revealed to her: "[A]s I was going to bed, there suddenly flashed upon me [the book] The Message of the Cross [574] with every chapter marked””the whole scheme, every heading, chapter and title. Next morning I arose with every bit of it printed on my mind. I went to my study””locked the door””took each passage and wrote it as rapidly as it was possible. . . .

Brenda many years back was banned from posting on sermonindex as she was taking over the website, taking over every thread.

Zac Poonen once said, if you are not able to control your mother tongue
there is no point to speak with an
other tongue.

Some words posted here are hurtful and mean.
They are archived on a server, but also archived by God.
Mind you, here are people you have to spend eternity with.

As for the gifts of the spirit,
tongues is small gift,
prophecy is bigger,
conviction is even more precious
and love is the greatest.

This is a true statement and worthy of consideration. It might just surprise us who we spend eternity with and how their reward and ours look.

"If my testimony makes anyone wish to emulate me, it is a mistaken testimony, it is not a witness to Jesus. The Holy Spirit will only witness to a testimony when Jesus Christ is exalted higher than the testimony.” (Oswald Chambers - from Disciples Indeed)

"We continually want to present our understanding of how God has worked in our own experience, consequently we confuse people. Present Jesus Christ, lift Him up, and the Holy Spirit will do in them what He has done in you.” (Oswald Chambers - from Disciples Indeed)

"Spiritual famine and dearth, if it does not start from sin, starts from dwelling entirely on the experience God gave me instead of on God who gave me the experience. …Whenever I put my experience of life, or my intelligence, or anything other than dependence on God, as the ground of understanding the will of God I rob Him of glory.” (Oswald Chambers - from Disciples Indeed)

Colin,
Also, you are treading dangerous ground in your addressing of Jesse Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, and others, attributing their writing to the work of demons. It's another ironic hypocrisy in this thread, and skirts the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

You will now say, "what about Brenda, and this or that person" - but we all stand at the judgment seat alone and answer for every word we speak, type, think, etc.

This entire thread is a horrendous caricature of everything Jesus shed His blood to purchase - the fact you are all continuing this, and even starting more threads to argue more... God is absolutely disgusted by this.

I think it would do everyone well to read through all of the epistles to Corinth, not just cherry picking them. It would shut this whole circus down pretty quickly.

Some of the comments are borderline hateful toward one another, and reek of vitriol and spite - it's a shame that one experience can so poison a person.

Kervin,
My opinion on anything is meaningless - and I will relay the words the Lord gives me, to the ones I am to relay them to. You may not understand why, and sometimes I don't even understand why, but the more the words I write in these threads are ignored and thrown back in my face, the more I realize where the foothold of the enemy is - and it is solidly in those that are self seeking (like your constantly going on about your website and causing just as many issues as this tongues debacle).

It's strange to me how only a few of us can discern the enemies working in these things - honestly more than strange, it's a bit revealing.

//Brenda many years back was banned from posting on sermonindex as she was taking over the website, taking over every thread.//

So how do you know this Colin? Greg does not disclose the reason for the removal of membership. Some of what you say is true and the result of a time when there was much opposition towards my posting on the doctrine of second blessing Entire Sanctification/baptism of the Spirit hence the excess postings from all. NAR's teaching of it coming at the end time has made that a bit easier though they are wrong on many points.

There is too much on that site that is wrong to even bother to mention. It is absolutely wrong on many points even quoting a book JPL was supposed to write which I have on my bookstand, by another writer.

The site is Reformed and in opposition to second blessing holiness/entire sanctification which you announced you are seeking on a Wednesday online session. JPL was a Keswickian as are those with whom you consult with and which theology I have spoken against even though JPL introduced me to the doctrine of holiness teaching.

My own theory which I hope to prove with further reading of history, is that JPL, was made a target as she came from the Spirit baptism = holiness no tongues camp which always clashes with Pentecostalism and I think that Roberts was influenced by them when they visited Wales from Azusa, which I believe was his downfall mental health wise. I got to understand JPL well by her theology and her influences and she was nothing like that site says. Quakerism had gone liberal by her time so even though she came from Quakerism, a born again believer would have trouble with it but she might have found a small group that was evangelical. The rest is just absolute junk.

Again Colin you are acting confused.

Just a very simple test for all these posts and posters. How many times is the name of Jesus mentioned in someones' posts. To that extent, one may presume the Holy Spirit is inspiring the posts or at least some portion of it. Otherwise, doubts abound. The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus and likewise, the spirit of understanding, wisdom and revelation is the testimony or knowledge of Jesus.

"I hear that when you gather as a church body, there are factions among you and I believe it. It must be so in order that those who are approved may be revealed."

I say this not put anyone, or their testimony, or their truth down. Rather to lift One and His testimony and the truth of Him up. Christianity, the work of the Spirit and the building of His church is so simple; to understand, to apply and to use words that are easy to communicate and pass along for the sake of others less mature or not as spiritual. We preach Christ unto the unity of the faith, the building up of the Body unto the stature of His fullness by speaking the truth of Christ, the knowledge of Christ, to one another in love so that we will no longer be little children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and the cunning deceit through "other knowledge" inspired by the evil one. IF what we say seems only to fit into a small niche of super spiritual people, it probably isn't really about Jesus and it most certainly isn't for the building up of the Body.

The only thing that is different for the mature is that they have been trained in righteousness, unto more and more Christlikeness. That is what qualifies them to teach. One's knowledge of Christ without the character of Christ makes them in their knowledge of Jesus useless and unfruitful. (2Peter 1) IF their spiritual learning doesn't result in more Christlikeness for themselves and others, what good comes of it ? Their knowledge won't save them or their hearers (1Timothy 4).

@brother Evan. How you keep missing justifiable intentions makes me skeptical over much of what you have to say (despite its tendency to have a form of godliness). I came on SI asking for an online church (ready to join something that someone else setup) and not only did you not suggest one but you supported me in a way when I, at last, attempted to setup one.

Let any here on SI arrange communion and I would be glad to partake. And all other benefits exclusive to a structured church and I should not need another. Many here seems to have churches they are, to some degree, happy about. And LCF does not intend to receive such if you have read the About us page. But looking for any and everyone who feel stranded out of a local Church.

Paul says forsake not fellowshiping and on another post you said (in effect) we fellowship together with God. Paul would not have exclusively implied fellowship with God which we already do in our closets.

But must have meant also with each other as Christians. Stirring each other towards our faith walk, etc. Of cause we do eventually jointly fellowship with God but I do not see Paul having implied the fellowship with God as such when he exhorted against withdrawing from fellowship.

by Brenda
So how do you know this Colin? Greg does not disclose the reason for the removal of membership.

Those of us who were here saw all the warnings Greg gave you. That's how Colin knows.

I'm not denying that my posts caused a stir. As I said, there wasn't the NAR to soften my message. I did spend all of the time answering objections though and was not starting threads much. Just like now.

I think he gave me one or two warnings but someone was threatening me so I got defensive.

And Greg did let me back.

In thinking about this whole issue, I decided that, in obedience to the Lord, I should apologize to you all for my role in this thread - regardless of right and wrong, the truth is, if any have a case against anyone, no matter the legitemacy of it, it falls on us as disciples of Christ to lay our gifts at the the altar and offer ourselves to the mercy of the ones who hold the case.

So I am sorry for the part I played in this, which was by no means insignificant and causes likely as much hurt and offense as anyone else.

duplicate

The apology is greatly appreciated

Proverbs 17:9 (KJV) He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.

1 Peter 4:8 (KJV)
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

I already had apologised but would like to do so again to anyone who may feel unjustly hurt directly by me. Apologising from the bottom of my heart.

Next I would like to note that although many would think the thread turned out wrong, I still appreciate how it brough about the unbosoming of very encouraging and conrfiming testimonies.

"46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

Peter was here satsfied that his audience was indeed amongst those who stood pleasing before God. Because God himself bore witness that he was happy with their heart states - and therefore pleased to give them his Holy Spirit. Many testimonies shared hear have had the same bearing (at least to me). That God was pleased with our heart-set - and we know this because he thus gave us his Holy Spirit.