Heresy of Cessationism

An interesting look into the history of cessationism and words from the church fathers what stood out was John Wesley defending continuism, an arguing against cessationism with Middleton in an old letter

A very thought provoking interesting podcast by Daniel Kolinda

In Episode 9 of the "Heresy of Cessationism" series, Daniel delves into the history behind cessationism, drawing inspiration from John Wesley's response to Conyers Middleton. The episode challenges the cessationist stance, revealing its potential to undermine fundamental Christian beliefs. It emphasizes the dangers of a rigid, Procrustean interpretation of scripture and urges listeners to reevaluate their views on the supernatural within Christianity.

https://youtu.be/VS64t6Rp4jE?si=EBtvLF5S-GzniUA1

I hope to watch the referred podcast soon, myself.

Thanks, this was very interesting for me, an ex-cessationist during my early years when I ended up in Calvinism. My own experiences of the Spiritual realm, and holiness writers delivered me from that and I later left the denomination.

Daniel Kolenda however, makes many suppositions that are not correct, the very first one being that 'the church' in the early years was very corrupt. He is speaking of that heretical sect called the Roman Catholic Organization, whereas, the One, Holy, Apostolic catholic church, continued on in unity and without the anti-Christian developments later on ie the Enlightenment, Reformation and Rennaissance which all worked together to destroy true Christianity inside the church and out. It was not a good thing but those blinded by historians think it was.

His theory is wrong. The main reason why cessationists ie Calvinists and definitely genuine believers though mistaken, reject miracles, is because of the Bible verse:

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

They say the perfect is scripture which was held by them to the same place as the Roman pope whereas the true church held direct communication from the Spirit to be first. Of course confirmed by scripture.

They do not however, as the speaker says, discount all miracles. They accept healing by God (but not a healing ministry). They accept the word of knowledge in the form of guidance outside of scripture, like when seeking a new home or job. They may accept tongues as miraculous foreign languages today if needed.

So he is taking things to extremes.

On Wesley he is not correct, that Wesley was an 100% continuist. I think he had a very healthy attitude to the manifestations that were occurring during revivals. He would not condemn them. During visitations of the Spirit, men would often be overcome with their emotions and it would not be conducive to start judging them. Of course, unless they were interupting the services.

"Wesley admitted that genuine spiritual revival seldom happens without outburst of fanaticism. Fanaticism in the Methodist movement had many facets, going on from simple excitement-seeking attitude, which often resulted in uncontrolled and ecstatic behavior, onto the more elaborate theological departures.

Already in 1739, at the earliest stage of the Methodist revival, Wesley was directed to meet some descendants of French Huguenots who spoke ecstatically in unknown tongues without interpretation and calling it "gift of tongues.”

At first, Wesley did not want to hinder their enthusiasm but after several of his members lost taste of religion due to extravagancy of these prophets, Wesley concluded that these individuals were not sent by God and earnestly exhorted **"all that followed after holiness to avoid as fire all who do not speak according "to the law and the testimony.”** 22

22 The only certain test for Wesley was the test of "the law and the testimony” a reference to Isaiah 8:20, which he interpreted as a description of God's Word.

Several drop down as dead and are as stiff as a corpse, but in a while they start up and cry, Glory! Glory! perhaps twenty times together. **Just so did the French Prophets, and very lately the Jumpers in Wales, bring the real work into contempt.** Yet whenever we reprove them, it should be in the most mild and gentle manner possible. "

Wesley’s Diary of June 22, 1739 in WRJW 1:205, 206.

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=aussj

So we see how Wesley dealt with the charismatics of his day The French Prophets, and there is the story about when he and Charles were travelling and had to share a bedroom with one of them, to which Charles said he would get no sleep with the man speaking gibberish.

I am very suspicious of some of the 'evidence' presented when Wesley talks of tongues but could easily mean foreign languages so I don't know why he is used so much apart from that he taught a baptism of the Spirit.

By the way, it is being spread about me that I condemn the baptism in certain brethren which is a lie as I have maintained yet it continues.

I said that here is a counterfeit and one must look at the fruit produced and test it. It is not up to me to do that. Please do not propagate lies on a Christian forum thanks.

1 Corinthians 14:11

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

"14:11 I shall be a barbarian to him - Shall seem to talk unintelligible gibberish."

John Wesley commentary

The Church in Corith is a good example of the fact that we are never immune from getting off to fanatics. But may that not be the means to steer us well away from welcoming the manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God. The Bible says despise not prophesy. I guess it was because of the counterfeit ones that would contaminate the legit ones - that would leave folks completely averse thereto. My understanding is that baptism that that gives one victory over sin and leave them grieved by those continuing in evil around him like Lot in Sodom cannot be of the enemy. Baptism that leaves one with the Spirit of travail in prayer for the lost - that they too may flee the wrath to come. Or how else should we test it?

Paul said to the church you give thanks well but the others are not built up , this is not fanaticism just an immature use of the gift .

It's was never inherently bad or evil to give thanks well , they didn't put others first this was the root of the disorder rather, not the gift.

Many Christians when they flow in any sort of gift weather it extraordinary and ordinary don't put others first ,

Pastors do this charity workers do the this heresy hunters do that , the self professing entirety sanctified in may case are even more likely to be snared with a spirit of Pride .

I am following brothagary - and will not object. I may have mis-used the word 'fanatism'. But I sought to use it to demonstrate that anything that may seem off in a revival can be likened to what ensued at Corith. And not a reason to null and void the entire work.

Edited (tongues part removed)

"They accept the word of knowledge in the form of guidance outside of scripture, like when seeking a new home or job."

What you are saying, sister, is that the Holy Spirit can now do the same that he did 'only' through gifts without a gift? If so, then which verse implied that this would eventually be the case?

Oh that is true , we can throw the baby with the bath water . Amen 🙏

Pentecostal Outpourings in History

From the book: With Signs Following by Stanley H. Frodsham

There are some who state that all miracles, including the speaking with tongues, ceased with the Apostles, this, however, is not the case. During the past nineteen centuries, in times when spiritual life ran high, the Holy Spirit has been received just as at Pentecost, with the accompanying manifestation of the speaking in tongues.

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it ‘the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal.’” [1 Corinthians 12:7]
Irenaeus, who was born in Asia Minor in A. D. 115 and who died in Lyons, France, in A. D. 202, who was a scholar of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John, states in his Adv. Haer VI, page 6, "We have many brethren in the churches having prophetical gifts and by the Spirit speaking in all kinds of languages.”

Tertullian, who lived in the second century, speaks of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues, as being still manifest among the Montanists to whom he belonged.

Augustine wrote in the fourth century, "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states that the glossolalia (or speaking in tongues) "recurs in Christian revivals of every age, e.g., among the mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, among the Jansenists and early Quakers, and persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, and the Irvingites” (Vol. 27, pages 9 and 10, 11th edition).

In the history of the Christian church by Phillip Schaff, Vol. 1 page 237 of the edition of 1882, He shows that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues reappeared from time to time in seasons of religious revival, "as among the Camisards and the prophets of the Cevennes in France, among the early Quakers and Methodist, the Readers (followers of Lasare) in Sweden In 1841-1843, in the Irish revivals of 1859, and especially in the ‘Catholic Apostolic Church,’ commonly called Irvingites, from 1831 to 1833, and even to this day.” In this church history it speaks of Vincent Ferrer who died in 1419, "Spondamus and many others say, this saint was honored with the gift of tongues.” This work also tells of Francis Xavier, who died in 1552, that he "is said to have made himself understood by the Hindus without knowing their language.” The Catholic Encyclopedia also speaks of him preaching in tongues unknown to him. Xaviar was a truly converted man and a most remarkable missionary.

In a German church history, Souer’s History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, page 406, the following words are found: "Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit.”

Writing of the revivals among the Huguenots, Pastor A. A. Boddy states: "When Louis XIV of France in 1685 revoked the Edict of Nantes which had given religious liberty, he strove by dragonades to drive Protestants into the Roman Catholic Church. The Huguenots were led by John Cavalier, a farmer, into inaccessible mountains. Among these persecuted people were those who spoke in tongues. There are records both by enemies and by friends as to their prophetic gifts.

"Prophets came from the Cevennes to Holland, and on to Germany. At that time among the professors and students there was a great receptivity to God’s power. In 1714 they brought the gift of tongues and prophecy to Wetterau, near Frankfurt-on-Main. their leaders were an ejected Wurtemburg pastor named Gruber and a Brother Rock, a saddler. They and their ‘gifted’ followers were called ‘the inspired ones of the Wetterau.’”

in the diary of Thomas Walsh, one of Wesley’s [John Wesley] foremost preachers, March 8, 1750, the record stands: "this morning the Lord gave me language that I knew not of, raising my soul to him in a wonderful manner.”

Mr. O. P. Simmons of Frost Proof, Fla, writing in "A Call to Faith” in November, 1909, states: "While I have been a church member for sixty-two years, I have associated with those who talk in tongues for fifty-two years. In Southern New England, among the Second Adventists, A. D. 1857, I learned that some had for three years previously in their religious worship spoken in what is termed as ‘the unknown tongue.’ From 1824 down to the present time, from Maine to Connecticut, quite a good number of the Adventist people (known as ‘gift Adventists’) have had more or less talking in tongues and also the interpretation of tongues. Some gifted men of their ministry had been thus exercised. The most talking in tongues has been that of Wm. H. Doughty, a minister for over forty years. He was the leader among the Gift Adventists. the writer knew him well. He was a very sweet-spirited, humble Christian, of great power in prayer. He was often called to lay hands on the sick, when some instant faith healings of chronic diseases were the result.”

Miss Maria Gerber, Who spent many years of faithful service in Turkey as a missionary and at one time was head of a large orphanage there, has told us how in the days of her early experience as a Christian She would go along the roads in Switzerland singing for joy, and frequently she would have a song in other tongues. After she was marvelously healed of the Lord she went to New York to receive training as a missionary at the school of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. She could only speak German when she arrived in New York (she came from that part of Switzerland where only German is spoken) but while praying for a sick person the Lord gave her the ability to speak in purest English. She could understand perfectly some of the teachers at the training school in New York but others she could not understand at all. She stated that she could always understand those who spoke under the anointing of the Spirit but she could not understand those who did not speak in the Spirits power, and so she ceased to attend their lectures.

Pentecostal Outpourings in History

There has never been a time when the gifts of the Holy Spirit completely ceased to function in the Church of Jesus Christ. History undeniably refutes the claim that it has.

Read the below chapter from Stanley Frodhsam’s book, With Signs Following, as that chapter gives many examples from history of the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In Northwest Ohio, my (Chet Swearingen) ancestors were severely persecuted by denominational churches as those churches opposed the reviving work of the Holy Spirit at the turn of the last century. Now that Pentecostalism (Charismatic) has gone mainstream, it is common to find churches that once embraced those doctrines, now being embarrassed with aspects of the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

Pentecostal Outpourings in History

From the book: With Signs Following by Stanley H. Frodsham

There are some who state that all miracles, including the speaking with tongues, ceased with the Apostles, this, however, is not the case. During the past nineteen centuries, in times when spiritual life ran high, the Holy Spirit has been received just as at Pentecost, with the accompanying manifestation of the speaking in tongues.

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it ‘the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal.’” [1 Corinthians 12:7]

Irenaeus, who was born in Asia Minor in A. D. 115 and who died in Lyons, France, in A. D. 202, who was a scholar of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John, states in his Adv. Haer VI, page 6, "We have many brethren in the churches having prophetical gifts and by the Spirit speaking in all kinds of languages.”

Dean Farrar in his book "Darkness to Dawn” in which he states: "Even to the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority,” refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

Tertullian, who lived in the second century, speaks of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues, as being still manifest among the Montanists to whom he belonged.

Augustine wrote in the fourth century, "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

Even in the "dark ages” God gave some gracious revivals. From the twelfth to the fifteenth century there were revivals in Southern Europe in which many spoke in other tongues. Foremost among these revivalists were the Waldenses and Albigenses.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states that the glossolalia (or speaking in tongues) "recurs in Christian revivals of every age, e.g., among the mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, among the Jansenists and early Quakers, and persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, and the Irvingites” (Vol. 27, pages 9 and 10, 11th edition).

In the history of the Christian church by Phillip Schaff, Vol. 1 page 237 of the edition of 1882, He shows that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues reappeared from time to time in seasons of religious revival, "as among the Camisards and the prophets of the Cevennes in France, among the early Quakers and Methodist, the Readers (followers of Lasare) in Sweden In 1841-1843, in the Irish revivals of 1859, and especially in the ‘Catholic Apostolic Church,’ commonly called Irvingites, from 1831 to 1833, and even to this day.” In this church history it speaks of Vincent Ferrer who died in 1419, "Spondamus and many others say, this saint was honored with the gift of tongues.” This work also tells of Francis Xavier, who died in 1552, that he "is said to have made himself understood by the Hindus without knowing their language.” The Catholic Encyclopedia also speaks of him preaching in tongues unknown to him. Xaviar was a truly converted man and a most remarkable missionary.

In a German church history, Souer’s History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, page 406, the following words are found: "Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit.”

Writing of the revivals among the Huguenots, Pastor A. A. Boddy states: "When Louis XIV of France in 1685 revoked the Edict of Nantes which had given religious liberty, he strove by dragonades to drive Protestants into the Roman Catholic Church. The Huguenots were led by John Cavalier, a farmer, into inaccessible mountains. Among these persecuted people were those who spoke in tongues. There are records both by enemies and by friends as to their prophetic gifts.

"Prophets came from the Cevennes to Holland, and on to Germany. At that time among the professors and students there was a great receptivity to God’s power. In 1714 they brought the gift of tongues and prophecy to Wetterau, near Frankfurt-on-Main. their leaders were an ejected Wurtemburg pastor named Gruber and a Brother Rock, a saddler. They and their ‘gifted’ followers were called ‘the inspired ones of the Wetterau.’”

in the diary of Thomas Walsh, one of Wesley’s [John Wesley] foremost preachers, March 8, 1750, the record stands: "this morning the Lord gave me language that I knew not of, raising my soul to him in a wonderful manner.”

Mr. O. P. Simmons of Frost Proof, Fla, writing in "A Call to Faith” in November, 1909, states: "While I have been a church member for sixty-two years, I have associated with those who talk in tongues for fifty-two years. In Southern New England, among the Second Adventists, A. D. 1857, I learned that some had for three years previously in their religious worship spoken in what is termed as ‘the unknown tongue.’ From 1824 down to the present time, from Maine to Connecticut, quite a good number of the Adventist people (known as ‘gift Adventists’) have had more or less talking in tongues and also the interpretation of tongues. Some gifted men of their ministry had been thus exercised. The most talking in tongues has been that of Wm. H. Doughty, a minister for over forty years. He was the leader among the Gift Adventists. the writer knew him well. He was a very sweet-spirited, humble Christian, of great power in prayer. He was often called to lay hands on the sick, when some instant faith healings of chronic diseases were the result.”

Miss Maria Gerber, Who spent many years of faithful service in Turkey as a missionary and at one time was head of a large orphanage there, has told us how in the days of her early experience as a Christian She would go along the roads in Switzerland singing for joy, and frequently she would have a song in other tongues. After she was marvelously healed of the Lord she went to New York to receive training as a missionary at the school of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. She could only speak German when she arrived in New York (she came from that part of Switzerland where only German is spoken) but while praying for a sick person the Lord gave her the ability to speak in purest English. She could understand perfectly some of the teachers at the training school in New York but others she could not understand at all. She stated that she could always understand those who spoke under the anointing of the Spirit but she could not understand those who did not speak in the Spirits power, and so she ceased to attend their lectures.

At an international conference held in England in 1885, Mrs. Michael Baxter, the widow of the late Michael Baxter, the author of the well-known book "Forty Future Wonders of Scripture Prophecy,” and the founder of the Christian Herald of London and the Christian Herald of New York, told of being able to preach for thirty-five minutes in German when she was almost entirely unfamiliar with the language. She was well understood and one soul was converted. She stated, "After that He led me to speak almost every day, and often twice a day to hundreds of people, although when I went into a shop I could not make myself understood, nor could I understand the people.”

Some years ago Dr. F. B. Meyer visited Estonia, one of the Baltic provinces of Russia, where he found some simple peasant congregations of Baptists. He wrote to the London "Christian” of the wonderful work of the Holy Ghost that he saw among them. He stated, "It is very remarkable, at a time when the Lutheran church of this land had lost its evangelistic fervor and is inclined to substitute forms an rites for the living power of Christ, that God raised up a devoted nobleman, Baron Uxhull, To preach the gospel in all its simplicity, and is renewing among the peasantry those marvelous manifestations which attended the first preaching of the gospel when God bore witness to the message of salvation ‘With signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Ghost’ [Hebrews 2:4]. To have come across a movement like this is intensely interesting. The gift of tongues is heard quite often in the meetings, especially in the villages, but also in the towns. Here at Reval (now Tallinn, Estonia], the pastor of the Baptist church tells me that they often break out in his meetings. They are most often uttered by young women, less frequently by men. When they are interpreted they are found to mean, ‘Jesus is coming soon; Jesus is near. Be ready; be not idle.’ When they are heard, unbelievers who may be in the audience are greatly awed. A gentleman who was present on one occasion was deeply impressed by the fact that those who spoke were quite ordinary people until they were uplifted as it were by a trance and then they spoke with so much fluency and refinement.’”

In the year 1889 Daniel Awrey received a remarkable conversion. On the last night of the year he was much exercised to receive a deeper experience from God. He attended a prayer meeting on January 1, 1890, and while praying there the Spirit of God fell upon him and he began to speak in another tongue. This occurred in the city of Delaware, OH. later, he and his wife lived at Benah, Tenn., and here in 1899 about a dozen received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Daniel Awrey preached the gospel all around the world, until he laid down his life in Africa in 1913.

The following testimony appeared in the "Upper room,” a paper published in Los Angeles, Calif. "On April 9, 1898, the blood of Jesus Christ cleansed me from all sin: then three days after the heavens were opened unto me and the Holy Ghost descended in bodily shape like a dove upon me, with fire, and I began to speak in another tongue as the spirit gave me utterance, magnifying God. At the time I was alone in my room; had been tarrying there for six days, and this had been my most unceasing prayer, ‘Lord, baptize me with the Holy Ghost.’ The fire descended upon me and went through my flesh as ashes go through a sieve. I worship God in Spirit and in truth. I had no utterance except as the Spirit gave it. That night I was taught to look for the soon coming of Jesus. For over six years I was in fellowship with the ‘Brethren,’ but they began to persecute ‘this way’ when the gracious showers from the Lord began to come. And this called forth my testimony straight and clear to them as never before. the result has been that the ‘Brethren’ have set me at naught, forbidding my approach to the Lord’s table, saying that I was unfit to eat and that I was holding forth false doctrine. They said that no one received from the Lord what was given at Pentecost. I testified to seeing the Lord Jesus; they said that He did not appear to anyone now and that therefore I lied! But beloved, none of these things moved me, for I speak that which I do know and I testify that which I have seen. The Lord is using me here; only one other sister stands with me. She also witnessed the Holy Ghost coming up on her like a dove (in July, 1908). She was a French Roman Catholic and was marvelously converted to God twenty-seven years ago and has been speaking fluently in the English language ever since. Her name is Mrs. Harriett Gravelle. the battle of the Lord is on here. ””Martha J. Lewis, London, Ont. Canada.”

Elder Jethro Walthall writes: "A great holiness revival occurred in and around Greenville, S. C. in 1894-1895. A Baptist minister, Robert R. Singleton, was the prominent leader. He was excommunicated from his church and there came such a following that Paris Mountain Holiness Baptist Church was formed, three miles from Greenville. In 1905 there was such a spiritual upheaval in that church that a number spoke in tongues.” Brother Walthall held a meeting among these people in 1911, in which the Spirit of God worked very mightily and many were filled with the Spirit, speaking other tongues. There were remarkable healings and many other manifestations of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. During the progress of this great revival the spiritual tide returned in full force with divers tongues, many visions and other manifestations of the Spirit.

Mr. H. L. Christopher of New Britain, Connecticut, tells us of a remarkable revival that the Lord gave in Oslo, Norway, in 1899, in which many Norwegian people were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Mrs. Sarah A. Smith, who laid down her life in Egypt in 1918, testified to having received the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and with interpretation at a meeting in Tennessee in the year 1900. More than forty were baptized in the Spirit at the same time.

It will be seen from what has been written in previous chapters that since the year 1906, the speaking with other tongues has been universal. Since the same significant phenomenon Is occurring in all parts of the earth today as was seen in the days of the "early rain,” as described in the Acts of the Apostles, surely it suggests that we are in the days of the "latter rain,” that "rain” is due before the coming of the Lord. The Apostle James reminds us:

"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.” [James 5:7]

As a pentacostal who believes strongly in the continuation of the gifts seen in the book of Acts, for most of my life I avoided listening to anyone who I considered a cessationist. In the past year or two, events that I have experienced have caused my to broaden my horizons, so to speak, and listen to some cessationists. Here is what I learned.

1) They do not deny the power of God through the Holy Spirit.
2) They do not believe that miracles have ceased. They believe in asking God to do things, believing He can, and leaving the outcome in God's hands.
3) They do not believe that healing has ceased. They believe in asking God to heal, believing He can, and leaving the outcome in His hands.
4) They DO believe that the miracles, signs and wonders performed by the Apostles were a sign to the world that the Apostles were from God.
5) They DO believe that these sign gifts have ceased. Among these would be men performing miracles and healing people.
6) They DO believe in elders anointing with oil and praying for the sick. If the person is healed, they would usually say God did it sovereignly.

While I disagree with some of these things, NONE of them constitutes heresy. I saw the Kolenda video. I think he set up a strawman by mischaracterizing and then sought to have others react to the strawman. Again, I am NOT a cessationist and I believe they are misinterpreting some scripture, but they are definitely not heretics because of their cessationist beliefs.

If there are true cessationists on this forum, PLEASE correct me if I have any of this wrong about what you believe.

While this makes a good general structure, right inside each class you find those who's assertions are partial as well as those who are entirely in - which further complicates things. Like a 5% cessationalist will not reason the same as a 95%. Someone here said that Wesley was not 100% Cessational meaning he overlapped (if it is true)... It gets complicated. Is ours then not to try and understand the cause of all this confusion, perhaps?

Kervin: Agreed. But even if a person is 100% in each of the classes or beliefs I mentioned, it is not heretical. So if you disagree with cessationists 100%, and if they believe what I outlined 100%, you could still not call them heretics. You could, at best, say, "I disagree completely with their position."

I also agree there. And then I so wonder why it so gets? The devil, our illiteracy or something God deicided to leave there so we get to keep looking at Christ alone and not man?

Travis

As an ex-Cessationist, you summary is spot on and a bit of sanity here. And you are correct, I should not have missed this but, they are not heretics. Kolenda did set up a straw man.

It is tongues they disagree with the most, and the stress on healing. The continuists however, are having to backtrack when so many of their leaders and prominent people have or are dying of the same illnesses as everyone else. It is going to come right down on their heads before too long.

They also have to answer questions like, what were they doing during the plandemic?

The fact is that the healing we see in the NT was a sign that the ultimate healer had arrived, of our sick souls. Not many cases are reported these days and if they do arise, we must never forget that the devil can do these things. God does still heal though.

I must say though, that amongst the cessationists, even though they misinterpret scripture a lot, they are usually honest people and are not into the deception I meet in the other side of the stable.

There are doctrinal issues that we should be divided on. These are the heresy issues, or at least the clear cut right and wrong issues. If you deny the virgin birth or deny that Jesus is God in the flesh, then you are in heresy. If you claim that you are saved by your works, rather than by Jesus's sacrifice, then you are in heresy. If your doctrinal belief causes you to follow anything other than Jesus, to get your eyes off of Him, then you might by in heresy. At a bare minimum you are in an error that you need to recognize and repent of before you are led astray. But to believe that God does miracles and heals by His sovereign will rather than anointing men to do these works does not cause you to take your eyes off of Jesus, neither does it make you a heretic.

I think that is the way I would put it.

Good point Kervin. Often this debate does take people's eyes off of Jesus and puts them on their disagreements with each other. There are things we SHOULD disagree with, and that vehemently. Then there are issues like this. We can discuss them, but we need to do so as brothers who recognize one another as such. To say, "The Cessationish Heresy" just demonstrates that you have priorities other than sound doctrine and keeping your eyes on Jesus. By my observation, Kolenda has an agenda. Without a signs and wonders doctrine, his entire Christology and Pneumatology collapses. So, cessationists must be heretics.

...

Brenda: I totally agree with you here.

As a pentacostal who believes in praying in tongues and has seen the legitimate gift of tongues operate in the body a few times, I think a lot of the "tongues" we hear are just total gibberish, a product of people getting into the flesh and not in the Spirit. I know the father of a girl who at age 14 prayed in Spanish for a man in the Dominical Republic. She prayed for his exact malady, and she did not know ANY Spanish. This is one example of legitimate tongues.

Cessationists do tend to have an issue with tongues. But again, most I have heard have said that the gift could still happen today, but it must be within Biblical parameters. I agree with them. I just see it as more common and more powerful in the life of a believer than they do. Again, not heresy.

Makes sense and I pardoned the thread title as I understood it to be the video's title there which I had not gotten to see yet. It is just unfortunate when you find brethren unalable to get on unless these differences are ironed out. Unfortunately, it does so appear that God is not there (in minor differences) - so it seems much like chasing the wind.

It seems plausible that God would leave these areas unclarified so that we keep looking at him who's knowledge is complete. As opposed to men who only know in part?

PS. So it is huge pride that we need to swallow and jointly go seek God amidst them.

In case you had missed, brother Travis, our sister (from what I know to date) does not have the 'praying in tongues' in her theological phrases. And therefore cannot pray with you most probably lest you therein contaminate her with the "suspicious tongues praying spirit". How would you comment on that brother? Or is this not what I mean it gets bad?

Perhaps she'll understand you (if not already have). I say this so that you do not waste time thinking you are both on the same page as it is not so to my understanding.

I do believe that the 9 gifts of the Spirit, as given in 1 Corinthians 12, are gifts that God does use through believers today. I also believe that there are very specific rules under which they are to operate, given in 1 Cor. 14, and that the motivation for those gifts is given in 1 Cor. 13. So, I believe that messages in tongues and interpretation of that tongue is sometimes a thing that God uses a believer to do. I do not believe that on MUST speak in tongues. I don't believe that every believer will be used in either gift of tongues or interpretation of tongues. I don't believe anyone has the gift of tongues permanently so that they can use it at any time they wish. It is of God, from God, and when God desires.

I do believe that praying in tongues privately, as a part of the experience of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is also still being experienced by believers today. It is absolutely not necessary for a person to pray in tongues. I believe it is, however, Biblical and available to believers. Some may disagree with me, but I see it clearly in scripture. Like I said, I am a pentacostal.

That would not and should not mean that a cessationist cannot pray with me. The majority of my prayer life is in English (my native language). I believe that is Biblical. My cessationist brothers and sisters and I can pray together, worship together, and fellowship together with no problems at all.

I would add something to what I just said. My wife and I have fellowshipped in a lot of different types of churches. Baptist, Baptist holiness, Methodist, and Christian. If I am in my private prayer time, I might find myself praying in tongues. If I am in a corporate time of prayer, especially among people who do not practice praying in tongues, I will be sure that I refrain from it. Praying in tongues is for the private prayer life. The gift of tongues is for the corporate body and is only going to occur when God moves on a believer to exercise that gift, and it must also be followed by an interpretation according to Paul in 1 Corinthians.

A cessationist and myself can be completely on the same page, even in a worship service or praying together, because the disagreement about cessationism and continuatinism is not something that divides between Christian and non-Christian. We both serve the same, one true God. We both believe we are saved only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We are both TRUE believers. We actually both believe that God moves supernaturally in the Earth. We disagree as to the exact mode by which He does these things, yet we agree that He does. The only disharmony between us will be the disharmony that one or the other of us chooses to have.

To most Pentecostals the gift of tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Every Spirit Baptized believer may receive the gift of tongues if they seek for it, although they might not receive this gift when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, but may receive it sometime later. That was my experience. I have changed my belief concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that power is the main sign of receiving the Baptism. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.”

Praying in the Spirit builds up the believer and also builds up the church when there is an interpretation of the tongue, and then this is the equivalent of prophesy. Praying in the Spirit is valuable for intercession. We don’t know how to pray at times, but the Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the Will of God . Every believer should desire the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues

To most Pentecostals the gift of tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Every Spirit Baptized believer may receive the gift of tongues if they seek for it, although they might not receive this gift when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, but may receive it sometime later. That was my experience. I have changed my belief concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that power is the main sign of receiving the Baptism. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.”

Praying in the Spirit builds up the believer and also builds up the church when there is an interpretation of the tongue, and then this is the equivalent of prophesy. Praying in the Spirit is valuable for intercession. We don’t know how to pray at times, but the Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the Will of God . Every believer should desire the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues

I also do not have any problems praying with charismatic and Pentecostals, and the ones l have been meeting with, refrain from tongues at the meetings which are Bible studies and prayer. We have not discussed the gifts but l notice they rarely if ever, mention fruit.

I think that Paul is talking about love as the fruit of the Spirit, conferred at baptism, as the more excellent way.

Listening to an excellent biblical scholar on tongues on youtube.

by brendam:
1 Corinthians 14:11

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

"14:11 I shall be a barbarian to him - Shall seem to talk unintelligible gibberish."

John Wesley commentary

1 Cor 14 is chock full of positivity about the gifts and tongues:

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, BUT TO GOD. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish that ALL OF YOU could speak in tongues,

12 Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, strive to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13 Therefore, the one who speaks in a tongue SHOULD PRAY that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What then shall I do? I will pray WITH MY SPIRIT, but I will also pray with my mind.

18 (Paul says that he) thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
19 But in the church (he didn't say to never speak in tongues), I would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21It is written in the Law:

"By strange tongues and foreign lips
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to Me,
says the Lord.”

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers.

26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, A TONGUE, or AN INTERPRETATION (interpreting a message in tongues). All of these must be done to build up the church.

39 So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
40 But everything must be done in a proper and orderly manner.

If someone doesn't want the gift of tongues, so be it. Don't discourage others from wanting or seeking it.

If I am in a prayer meeting with non-Pentecostals, I will not pray in tongues, I know of a Baptist Church that was having prayer meetings and many pastors from denominational churches were gathering to pray. A Pentecostal lady got involved in the prayer meeting gave ia strong message in tongues, and after that was the end to the prayer meetings. she was out of order, and that was not of the Lord.

In the late 60s and early 70s the Holy Spirit was being poured out on just about every denominational church so we would have meetings with Spirit filled believers, Spirit filled Baptists, Methodists, Catholics , Pentecostals, and we would be in perfect unity. It was glorious. That was when the Full Gospel Business men were conducting meetings, and people from many different denominations would attend. When the saints would sing in the Spirit, it was perfect unity and harmony. How can hundreds of people all be singing in a different melody, and it would blend in to perfect harmony? It was singing in the Spirit.

Lisa that verse and interpretation was for Kervin who had quoted one from the same chapter by Wesley, which seemingly supported his view.

As I was listening to a very good Greek scholar this evening, he pointed out that in every word used in 1 Cor 14 for tongues that is Gloss, everywhere else in the NT it means the tongue organ or language, as in, one that is understood by man.

I am a truth seeker Lisa and desire it for my brethren too.

I had an insight this evening, that Paul in chapter 12, is saying to the Corinthians that it is all noise without love.

Now love is the foremost fruit of the Spirit, I hope everyone agrees. Paul is saying that it is needed by them therefore they had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Interesting.

Mike

Can you give me an example from scripture about 'singing in the Spirit'?

17For truly you are giving thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Insight from the scripture says they were giving thanks well ,,,that aint just noise , but the love of the spirit himself praying and interceeding through the church

Sorry wrong chapter:

1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Can you give me an example from scripture about 'singing in the Spirit'?

Do not get drunk with wine, for that is wickedness (corruption, stupidity), but be filled with the [Holy] Spirit and constantly guided by Him."

speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your hearts to the Lord;”

( Ephesians 5:18,19)

It is real Brenda! Spiritual songs, "singing and making melody with your hearts to the Lord.”

" some early Pentecostal sources call "the heavenly choir," the "heavenly anthem," or the "angelic choir." The comparison of "singing in the Spirit" with the breath of God upon an Aeolian harp was used by Frank Bartleman in his book on Azusa Street (HOW PENTECOST CAME TO LOS ANGELES: AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING, 2d ed. [Los Angeles: By the Author, 1925], p. 58), where he wrote, "The spirit of song given from God in the beginning [of the Pentecostal movement] was like the Aeolian harp in its spontaneity and sweetness. In fact it was the very breath of God, playing on human heart strings, or human vocal cords. The notes were wonderful in sweetness, volume and duration. In fact they were ofttimes humanly impossible. It was 'singing in the Spirit.'"

Brenda so were you saying paul is saying singing is the spirit at Corinth was all noise no love?

Now love is the foremost fruit of the Spirit, I hope everyone agrees. Paul is saying that it is needed by them therefore they had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Interesting.

paul actually says thay were all baptized.

1 cor 12 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

Cessationists still believe in miracles, just not the sign gifts given to specific people; so they believe God still heals, for example, but they don't believe specific people have the gift of healing.

Misrepresenting people is not a good thing. I would almost say it's bearing false witness if you know what they really believe and keep saying they don't believe in miracles or the supernatural anymore.

Some of the finest christians out there are cessationists. I would rather listen to a cessationist who actually preaches the gospel than a false teacher who peddles snake oil and makes people seek after miracles and signs. Give me one Paul Washer rather than a thousand Bill Johnsons.

And before I get accusations thrown at me, yes, I am a continuationist.

As a side note, I find it rather sad that tongues is held up as the pinnacle of spirituality and the litmus test for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost no one spoke in languages people didn't understand; they spoke in known languages. I believe "glossolalia" is a legitimate gift (though maybe more uncommon than people think?). But the majority of people I know who speak in "tongues" only did so because of peer pressure to look spiritual. They say it's the language of angels; if so, angels must have the most limited vocabulary in the universe. Shouldaboughtahonda!

Duplicate

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

1 Cor. 14:15

I also think what sister Lysa brought up (Upper cases of her quotations do magnify several relevant areas about tongues) which can indeed answer to what I understood to be your implication of 'gibberish', dear sister.

And again another bare lie or what?
Just previous to this, on the Nothingness thread, you said you would not join in the service of praying with tongue speakers which you inffered must be Satan's language - and you just come in now and say: I also do not have a problem praying...? Why not say: I no longer have a problem... to indicate a/the change of mind.

Ah, it is this seemingly pride (amongst others) to admit when you had been wrong that makes me doubt the spirit you are about now.

Thanks Mike, yes I see it. It is also including everything we are supposed to do as Christians in opposed to doing something in the flesh for example: Walk in the Spirit, Be led by the Spirit. So we are to Sing in the Spirit, meaning, to do this in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think Welsh believers do this the best! Have you ever heard them singing Charles Wesley's hymns?

brothergary

//Brenda so were you saying paul is saying singing is the spirit at Corinth was all noise no love?//

I think I answered that regarding instruments.

On love, Paul is using this opportunity I believe to show the Corinthians that they are lacking love, hence his correction to them. Not in their singing but in their whole walk which if they are in Christ, and baptised into Him,

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.(KJV)

When we have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, the first proof according to Paul is this 'shedding abroad' of love for God first then for others.

//paul actually says thay were all baptized.

1 cor 12 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body//

Again, IF indeed we have been baptized into the body of Christ and Paul is giving us something to check this, that is the presence of love which will affect us in every way and especially in our relationship with God. Jesus says 'he who loves me will keep my commandments'.

Nigel

//Misrepresenting people is not a good thing. I would almost say it's bearing false witness if you know what they really believe and keep saying they don't believe in miracles or the supernatural anymore.//

Indeed, and God will not look kindly on such as these

//Some of the finest christians out there are cessationists. I would rather listen to a cessationist who actually preaches the gospel than a false teacher who peddles snake oil and makes people seek after miracles and signs. Give me one Paul Washer rather than a thousand Bill Johnsons.//

That is so true and is what I miss most. They really know their bibles, even if they are seen through the eyes of John Calvin. My local Pentecostal preacher repeats the same message every week, come to Jesus and be saved. Milk milk milk, and no meat even though he is a university professor.

// But the majority of people I know who speak in "tongues" only did so because of peer pressure to look spiritual.//

Yes I have been watching a video by Allen Parr who talks about this and the pressure he felt though he says he never had peace inside about doing it.

As I said in my reply to brothergary, it is love shed abroad in our hearts as first sign that we have the baptism.

Thanks for that post. It helps me in finally coming to grips with the tongues issue which I have mainly stayed away from. Clearing up what exactly what cessationists believe has made things clearer.

//Shouldaboughtahonda!// :)

Walking in the Spirit, in love and ultimately as a worthy Christian must entail no lies or pride (amongst other evils). But you seem to fall short on both these. May you find mercy in God.

Heaven is not for liers (amongst many other follies), I read. But take courage, this should be my last post regarding you until I should see a solid change in your professed Christian person.

Quote: Misrepresenting people is not a good thing.

Then why do it?

Quote: They say it's the language of angels; if so, angels must have the most limited vocabulary in the universe. Shouldaboughtahonda

Why do think that we can mock God, do we think we are more intelligent, more forward thinking, or more advanced than his Word.

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

Quote: On the day of Pentecost no one spoke in languages people didn't understand; they spoke in known languages.

Look at what the word says:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Why add or take away from scripture, it says they began to speak in "other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

If you go down to the verse 11 "we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God”.

We hear them in our own language, but it’s the next verse that interesting and may shed some light on the subject.

Verse 13 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine.”

So why couldn’t they hear them in their own language, if everything is being said in different languages to different nationalities? Surely they would hear their own language as well, but it seems that some heard, other didn’t and the ones who didn’t began to mock.

The wonderous thing that happened that selectively some understood what was said while other hearts were hardened and they mocked what was going on.

Testimony Time

This violent angry man; after a weekend of violence causing hurt and pain to strangers and loved ones, prayed a simple prayer.

"God I am fed up be like this change me"

As he lay back on his bed a wind began to blow and it left his body. Then another wind came it blew into him. When the man sat up he began to speak in a new language. He asked what was that and the thought came "Tounges"

I am that man..

Acts 2:6

Notice that the word "tongues" appears in verse 4, but in verse 6, the word "language" is used. Why were they not both translated the same way? The reason is that they are from two different Greek words. The one in verse 4 is the most familiar, glōssais, which means a "language" or "tongue." But the Greek word in verse 6 is dialekto, which has practically come into the English language untranslated as "dialect."

These people from all over the Roman world not only heard in their own language, but they heard the disciples in their own dialect.

God refined this explanation to ensure that we would understand that this manifestation was of languages people were familiar with but did not necessarily speak themselves.
They not only recognized the language itself but even the various local dialects within the language.

The disciples, then, to whom God had given His Holy Spirit, did not speak unintelligible gibberish, but each person hearing heard each person speaking, not only in his own language but even in his own dialect!

When Jesus was on trial, Peter was identified as being Galilean because of the way he spoke. Suppose the Jews in Judea spoke Aramaic, and that Peter spoke Aramaic, which is likely. Yet, Peter from Galilee spoke it in a dialect different from the Judeans' Aramaic spoken in Jerusalem. So, that young lady in Jerusalem quickly identified Peter as a Galilean. This recognition is what Luke is referring to in Acts 2 in this awesome miracle.

The miracle was not only in the disciples' speaking. The miracle of hearing may have even been greater because it had to work in each hearer's mind so that he recognized that each disciple spoke in his own dialect.

Verses 12-13 "And they were beside themselves with amazement and were bewildered, saying, 'What can this mean?' But others made a joke of it and derisively said, 'They are simply drunk and full of sweet [intoxicating] wine.'"

While some are genuinely amazed, others mock the disciples, attributing their behavior to drunkenness. This demonstrates the diversity of responses to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Today can expect a range of reactions when sharing the truth, from genuine interest to skepticism or mockery. It's a reminder to persevere in proclaiming the Gospel regardless of the responses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xNdunskS-c

Against Cessation of the Gifts of the Spirit by Leonard Ravenhill

"While some are genuinely amazed, others mock the disciples, attributing their behavior to drunkenness. This demonstrates the diversity of responses to the work of the Holy Spirit."

Amen

But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine. But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day." Acts 2:14-16

"We remember, because of Hannah’s silent prayer, Eli thought she "had been drunken." If you get Spirit-intoxicated about revival, if you get to the place where there is little relish for food, somebody is going to start jeering.

The church never does anything unless she is drunk with the Holy Ghost. At this hour, we need men drunk with the Holy Ghost.

Leonard Ravenhill

//Verse 13 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine.”//

The joy of the newly baptized would alone bring about that accusation so I think that it is the meaning rather than the hearing of languages. I guess the unconverted Jews would reject hearing the name of Jesus and mock. I am more being drawn away from the missionary idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xNdunskS-c

The sound quality is bad but anyway, who is defending cessationism? Nobody here. It is a straw man and dishonest as has been described. They do not deny the gifts just the signs. I am glad to have better clarity about that. As a cessationsist I used to pray for healing etc.

It is another throw out the baby. It is the sign gifts that differ. I am hoping to find more teaching on the sign of tongues for the unbeliever today.

How would you interpret that Colin if the reaction at Pentecost was mocking?

//The disciples, then, to whom God had given His Holy Spirit, did not speak unintelligible gibberish, but each person hearing heard each person speaking, not only in his own language but even in his own dialect!//

Nobody disputes the Acts 2 tongues as languages.

What I find strange is,, that a number of people here are decrying the 'false tongues' which means that there must be quite few of you around, yet, where are the video's on youtube? Where are the apologists who are educating the people on what is the false and real tongues with demonstrations?

You don't seem very forward in bringing in the truth (in your eyes).

You know that folk will come up against these 'falsies' which will give them a negative idea yes? Yet you rail against the witnesses with hurt feelings.

Quote: The joy of the newly baptized would alone bring about that accusation.

Come on Brenda stop being so stubborn, what was being spoken I would say very loudly and the joy ("gibberish" your words, not mine) that caused them to think like that.

These people are not drunk, as you suppose.

It’s only nine in the morning!

No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

It was prophetic for sure:- Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue Isaiah 28:11

Colin

Jerusalem at that time, under the Roman yoke, would be a place of sorrow and not joy, so a group of people laughing and hugging each other, without any words needed, would bring to mind a drunken party.

//It was prophetic for sure:- Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue Isaiah 28:11//

But you say that tongues is a blessing yet the verse you quote from Isaiah is for a curse.

I read this today though sorry no ref:

"Babbling in Babylon

Why is understanding the subject of tongues so essential for us today? I believe the modern charismatic movement was foretold in Bible prophecy. Revelation chapter 18 verses 2 and 4 state: "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen. ... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

We must remember that one of the principal characteristics of ancient Babylon at the tower of Babel was a confusion of tongues (Genesis 11:7-9). Revelation is telling us that in the last days, God's people are to be called out of Babylon and its confusing counterfeit religious systems. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Revelation 16:13. The phrase "out of the mouth" represents speech, and please don't miss the fact that a frog's main weapon is its tongue. Unclean tongues? Perhaps God is trying to tell us something.
Remember that the confusion of tongues at Babel was not a blessing of the Spirit, but rather a curse for their rebellion. In fact, we get our modern word "babbling" from the story of ancient Babel. At Pentecost, the curse of Babel was reversed so others might understand the gospel."

If anyone has not experienced this absolute joy when baptized by the Holy Spirit, similar to that when they first found Christ, then perhaps they may need to get into scripture to check it out.

He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue Isaiah 28:11

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people, and yet for all that they will not hear Me, saith the Lord. Paul concludes, "tongues are for a sign" to them that believe not.

A sign of what?

Clearly, tongues are God’s designated sign. A singular beauty of the New Testament is that God Himself, through the Spirit, speaks when He enters our hearts.

A sign of what?

A sign of judgment brother.

Isaiah 28:5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

I said I DO believe in glossolalia. So some people are given the gift of another language that is not any known language; it is speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

I didn't mean to mock or deride anyone who has this gift. Praise God you do! When someone has this legitimately, I've seen it do much good for the church.

But I've also seen people pressured into speaking gibberish. Sometimes these people aren't even born again, but they're told they have a gift of the Spirit. This deeply concerns me.

As Paul says in the 14th chapter of Corinthians, do all speak in tongues? The answer is either no, or we are forced to the conclusion that everyone is also an apostle (or that everyone who speaks in tongues is an apostle).

I try to read church history. The gift of tongues was largely, but not completely, dormant for many centuries. There are reliable records of people using this gift, among the Methodists and Huguenots, for example, before Asuza. Despite this, there were people that undeniably had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that did not speak in tongues.

I completely agree with Brenda when she says love is the evidence we are filled with the Spirit. Samuel Logan Brengle has probably the best books I have ever read on the subject.

Nigel

//I try to read church history. The gift of tongues was largely, but not completely, dormant for many centuries. There are reliable records of people using this gift, among the Methodists and Huguenots, for example, before Asuza. Despite this, there were people that undeniably had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that did not speak in tongues.//

Apparently, this professor says otherwise:

https://charlesasullivan.com/

Amen, brother Nigel

To most Pentecostals the gift of tongues is the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Every Spirit Baptized believer may receive the gift of tongues if they seek for it, although they might not receive this gift when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, but may receive it sometime later. That was my experience. I have changed my belief concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that power is the main sign of receiving the Baptism. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.”

Praying in the Spirit builds up the believer and also builds up the church when there is an interpretation of the tongue, and then this is the equivalent of prophesy. Praying in the Spirit is valuable for intercession. We don’t know how to pray at times, but the Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the Will of God . Every believer should desire the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues

I would say we see it exactly the same way. I am not 100% sure that the scripture about groanings which cannot be uttered is about praying in tongues. However, I do believe praying in tongues is one way that our spirit prays when our understanding is unfruitful, and that scripture is plain and clear. But I totally agree with this view.

Quote: A sign of what?

For it stands written in the law:

I will bring my message to this people with strange tongues and foreign lips, yet even then they still will not listen to me, says the Lord.

So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.

If I am in a prayer meeting with non-Pentecostals, I will not pray in tongues, I know of a Baptist Church that was having prayer meetings and many pastors from denominational churches were gathering to pray. A Pentecostal lady got involved in the prayer meeting gave ia strong message in tongues, and after that was the end to the prayer meetings. she was out of order, and that was not of the Lord.

Yes!

I had an insight this evening, that Paul in chapter 12, is saying to the Corinthians that it is all noise without love.

Now love is the foremost fruit of the Spirit, I hope everyone agrees.

Yes. You cannot divorce 1 Cor. 13 from the context of 12 and 14. The fruit of love must be the core motivation for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit. They are NEVER self serving, to make one look spiritual. We should NEVER have envy toward another where the gifts they operate in are concerned. They are manifestations of God's love to minister to another.

As a side note, I find it rather sad that tongues is held up as the pinnacle of spirituality and the litmus test for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost no one spoke in languages people didn't understand; they spoke in known languages. I believe "glossolalia" is a legitimate gift (though maybe more uncommon than people think?). But the majority of people I know who speak in "tongues" only did so because of peer pressure to look spiritual. They say it's the language of angels; if so, angels must have the most limited vocabulary in the universe. Shouldaboughtahonda!

Untiemybowtie whostolemyhonda SHONDI!

Love it!

I agree with you here. I also am a pentacostal. I believe speaking in tongues is valid and for today as well. But I wholeheartedly agree with what you said here.

//So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.//

How does that work then if it is said to be a judgement in the OT on the Jews who would not accept Jesus? If I was unsaved and heard it in a church I would run a mile! I would think that I had entered a psychiatric ward! Of course as has been pointed out, what goes on in a lot of places, is not spiritual but false use of tongues.

Collin: I agree with the tongues of angels comment. There is no scripture that definitively says that tongues can be the tongues of angels. The scripture says, "Even if I can speak in the tongues of men and of angles, and have not love..." That would be like me saying, "Even if I were fit enough to jump over the moon..." This is not evidence that people can jump over the moon. I also believe tongues will be a known, human language. However, I must be honest and say that scripture nowhere limits this either. But I agree with your perspective on that.

//So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.//

How does that work then if it is said to be a judgement in the OT on the Jews who would not accept Jesus? If I was unsaved and heard it in a church I would run a mile! I would think that I had entered a psychiatric ward! Of course as has been pointed out, what goes on in a lot of places, is not spiritual but false use of tongues.

I think it is a mistake to conflate Babel and the day of Pentacost.

Babel: Men are setting up false Gods, building a tall structure for worship of these false Gods. Men are not obeying the commandment to go and fill the whole Earth. I will confuse their languages to cause them to obey and put a stop to this idolatry.

Prophecy given to Joel: They will speak with other tongues.

Fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy: This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel. Men who did not know a language spoke that language perfectly proclaiming the things of God (in the correct dialects) to bear witness to the unbelievers that this was God. This was not a permanent changing of language. This was a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit to bear witness.

Ongoing: This is where the disagreement comes in so many times. Paul said, "I pray in tongues more than you all." This was not the gift of tongues with accompanying interpretation. This was devotional prayer in tongues. This is taught about several places in the New Testament if we will study it. The gift of tongues will be used by God on occasion as He wills. He will use a person to do this and perhaps the same but usually another person to interpret it. I believe this will be a real tongue and if a person is present who knows that language, they will attest to it. Reference my story of the 14 year old daughter of a friend of mine.

All of these things must be decent and in order. I don't think God is going to prompt me to pray loudly in tongues in a place where people who do not understand or do not believe it is God are present. Nor would I expect God to give a message in tongues in this environment. They would not understand the language anyway, and I would seem to them to be a barbarian. But suppose I am in that place and there are a few native Polish speakers and the message in tongues is in Polish. A message in tongues would be a witness to the people in that place. (My understanding of scripture in this paragraph)

But I don't think we can conflate Babel and Pentacost. The only common factor is a difference in languages, and this is not enough to say they are related in any way.

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

*I think this is called hyperbole when he says 'if I could speak all the languages in the world and even heaven'.*

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

*Again hyperbole if I understood all the mysteries in the world, and had all the knowledge in the world and enough faith to move mountains*

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

*Again even if I give everything I owned away and offer my body to the fire*

No love, which commeth with the baptism of the Spirit and is spread abroad in the heart, something that must be experienced (and is never forgotten)

I did not consciously love God before the baptism so that I would immediately die for Him. Respect and admiration yes.
r

"I also believe tongues will be a known, human language. However, I must be honest and say that scripture nowhere limits this either. But I agree with your perspective on that.”

Many of those that received the Baptism of HS at Azusa believed that they were receiving a foreign language to go forth into the nations and preach the gospel in the language of the people. There have been many instances of tongues being released in meetings that were perfectly understood by people from other nations.

//Many of those that received the Baptism of HS at Azusa believed that they were receiving a foreign language to go forth into the nations and preach the gospel in the language of the people. There have been many instances of tongues being released in meetings that were perfectly understood by people from other nations.//

I was reading recently, that after thinking they had received a foreign language, some of them went abroad confident that they would not need to go to language school but found that they in fact could not speak the language of the land they went to. It was very embarrassing.

https://charlesasullivan.com/8601/garrs-missionary-crisis-speaking-tongues/

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

*I think this is called hyperbole when he says 'if I could speak all the languages in the world and even heaven'.*

I think your assessment of this scripture is spot on.

I also believe tongues will be a known, human language. However, I must be honest and say that scripture nowhere limits this either. But I agree with your perspective on that.”

Many of those that received the Baptism of HS at Azusa believed that they were receiving a foreign language to go forth into the nations and preach the gospel in the language of the people. There have been many instances of tongues being released in meetings that were perfectly understood by people from other nations.

I completely agree. My Great Grandfather once preached a 30 minute sermon in Mexico in fluent Spanish. But, he did not know Spanish. There was an interpreter. He expected to speak in English and have it interpreted. However, the Holy Spirit had another idea and he felt prompted to speak in tongues. He did and it was understood.

Interestingly enough, my Great Grandfather also ministered alongside Charles Parham's son and daughter-in-law in the part of the country where I live. Once within literal blocks of where I am sitting right now.

You are right. Many of the early pentacostals believed that tongues were for supernatural evangelism where a person did not know the language. There is not one shred of Biblical support for it, but on occasion it did happen. Many times people were in presumption and it failed miserably.

There is a legitimate danger in this. We are prone to presume and act instead of being led genuinely by the Holy
Spirit. This has caused many people to distrust these "gifts", and rightfully so I think. I think motives are wrong so often. I know this because I am human and have to also check my motives. I have had the wrong motive at times. I think we all have. If the motive for the gifts is my own exaltation as "spiritual", then I am way off track and I will cause these things to be spoken of as evil. And I would have myself to blame for this. I should have spent time on my knees, checking my motive, and making sure I was hearing from God before I acted.

Mark. 11.

"[23] For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."

With all due respect, this does not look like a hyperbole in this context of the Lord.

Travis

At Babel,

"Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

But at Pentecost, this ancient limitation is reversed so that 'all of us hear them speaking in our own languages about the great things that God has done!' (Acts 2.13).

The Jews in Jerusalem would know of this reversal, but if they still refused to acknowledge the Son of God under such a revelation and miracle, the judgement of the Tower of Babel would be reinforced, as they refused to unite with their fellow Jews who were now saved, showing their pride, the thing that God hates, and was the reason for the curse of Babylon. This is the sign for unbelievers, to give them an opportunity to repent.

//This is where the disagreement comes in so many times. Paul said, "I pray in tongues more than you all." This was not the gift of tongues with accompanying interpretation. This was devotional prayer in tongues.//

Travis, there is no verse that warrants this interpretation from my understanding. Paul himself spoke many languages naturally and as the foremost missionary, he would also be the one most worthy of a gift of foreign language speaking that he had not learned, if this was the meaning.

Today, we are seeing the curse of Babylon re-enacted, as words lose their meanings bringing forth a crisis of meaning. The modern world despairs of knowing what is true and in the absence of truth it will have only division and conflict.

My last words are, may those who are able to pray in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance so continue and be not discouraged at all. As long as you know you also seek after holiness you shoul be good. As it is said:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Also, remembering the below:

"Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It were better..."My last words are, may those who are able to pray in tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance so continue and be not discouraged at all. As long as you know you also seek after holiness you shoul be good. As it is said:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Also, remembering the below:

"Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It were better..."

Here is my two pence worth.

When I picked up the Bible on a fishing boat in the North Sea and read, I did not come out believing like a Cessationist.

No I read about Acts 2 and how the Holy Spirit came and fell on Pentecost and I asked for the same thing.

That's exactly what happen to me when the wind blew onto me and I spoke in a new language.

1. I read the bible
2. I believed what I read.
3. I asked for the Holy Spirit
4. I received the Holy Spirit
5. I spoke in a new language.

All this before going to a church.

Lovely testimony, Colin.

Thanks for sharing Colin. praise God that you didn’t go to a church that tried to talk you out of your experience with the baptism with Holy Spirit, and speaking in tongues I praise God that I came to the Lord through the charismatic movement when the Holy Spirit was being poured out in the late 60s and early 70s, and I was baptized in the Holy Spirit .
We didn’t have all of our doctrines right and in place, but we had experience with God.

Amen Colin. I believe that this is Biblical, and of God.

The Jews in Jerusalem would know of this reversal, but if they still refused to acknowledge the Son of God under such a revelation and miracle, the judgement of the Tower of Babel would be reinforced, as they refused to unite with their fellow Jews who were now saved, showing their pride, the thing that God hates, and was the reason for the curse of Babylon. This is the sign for unbelievers, to give them an opportunity to repent.

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you on this.

In their journey to the wilderness, God judged the people and then had Moses make a brazen serpent and put it on a pole. In the New Testament we have scripture tying Jesus on the cross back to the brazen serpent. The two are related and the first is a foreshadowing of the second.

We don't find that anywhere in scripture for Babel and Pentacost. Conflating these two events is an idea of a man, not a truth of scripture. We use scripture to establish doctrine. To establish doctrine based upon something a man thinks he found in scripture is, in my opinion, dangerous as it adds to the Bible an idea that is not there.

For the proper use of tongues and to show that praying in tongues is Biblical (described in Paul's writings), let me use some context. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul is dealing with the correct use of tongues and prophecy. He says, "he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth, howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Later, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Later, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all, yet in the church..."

So here is what we know from 1 Cor. 14. Paul prayed in tongues. He spoke to God in tongues, which is the definition of prayer. And, he contrasted the tongues he spoke outside the church (when he was alone) to those inside the church (when he was fellowshipping with believers.) Remember that church, for these early believers, was in homes and other random places, not just in a "church building". In the church here means in the fellowship of believers.

So there is a "devotional", if that term is OK, application of praying in tongues apart from a message and interpretation that would be given in a fellowship. In the fellowship, very strict rules. Tongues along with interpretation, otherwise it does not edify. In private, tongues edifies the believer, even though the understanding of the believer is unfruitful. Hence verse 4, "He that speaketh in a tongue edifies himself", and verse 14, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful."

Some believe that this prayer in tongues by a believer has ceased. I find no scriptural evidence that this is the case. I do pray in tongues. It does NOT make me SPECIAL or MORE SPIRITUAL. NOT in any way, shape or form. It simply means that I pray in tongues. And I have seen it bear fruit in my life of encouragement and edification. It does NOT mean that I look down on or demean someone who says, "
But I do not speak in tongues." That would not be the fruit of the Spirit if I did, and I think you would agree.

However, I do believe this to be a valid work of the Holy
Spirit in believers today, just like it was in the church of Corinth.

Amen Colin!!

Hallelujah!!

Paul said in the beginnig of chapter 12

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

and at the end of chapter 14 he says

1 Corinthians 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Paul used 3 chapters to explain all there is to explain about the charismata, the spiritual gifts.

He knew full well that there would be people slighting and denounce what he wrote.

He said: I do not want you to be ignorant, but if after all his detailed discourse, people do not want it, he said

"Let them be ignorant"

God sort of seals up their ignorance. No arguing helps. It is waisted effort. The John MacArthurs of this world with all their learning cannot understand it, because if they did, they would have to surrender themselves to this truth and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So they have to put on this shell of ignorance to shield themselves from being convicted otherwise.

Those of us who have received this precious gift have to live with the stigma of being called loonies and all sorts of names. This keeps us humble.

So, let them be ignorant, they want it so.

//We don't find that anywhere in scripture for Babel and Pentacost. Conflating these two events is an idea of a man, not a truth of scripture. We use scripture to establish doctrine. To establish doctrine based upon something a man thinks he found in scripture is, in my opinion, dangerous as it adds to the Bible an idea that is not there.//

If you don't see it, then I cannot help on that one any further. It seems so impossible for me not to see that it is about the divisions of languages by God and in the enabling of Him for men to understand each other and to give His Son Jesus His endorsement..

Brother you are making a leap to turn praying in the Spirit to praying in tongues that is not there.

//"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Later, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all, yet in the church..."//

Paul is now speaking of foreign languages that the speaker does not know.

I would like to thank those who have joined in. My purpose is not to just to argue but I wish to understand the mindset of those who are in this tongue movement which began 100 years ago.

"The John MacArthurs of this world with all their learning cannot understand it, because if they did, they would have to surrender themselves to this truth and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So they have to put on this shell of ignorance to shield themselves from being convicted otherwise."

This is quite a self-righteous comment.
I can assure you all that I don't put on this shell of ignorance to shield myself from being convicted.
Thankfully I know what I believe and I'm always try and discern what is true and what is not.

On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience.
Probably not much point to discuss this any further.

"Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you..." blessings

Markus

Quote: On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience.

That's exactly what Cessationism does. They say there is no gifts and then go and try and prove it.

Have a listen to Justin Peter's - there is no silver bullet that says the gifts have ceased.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJx47gMTZI

John MacArthur / Justin Peters - having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 2 Tim 3:5

Avoid such people - Is what my bible says..

it's not the same thing at all, to have an experience and look for scripture, as opposed to not having that experience. The first one is open to deception. I am sure that all who say no tongues have been open at one time to receive them as I have.

Why is not the same!

Not having an experience, is a experience.

But the issue here is what the scripture says, which you and others seem to ignore.

There are plenty of scriptures about the gifts of the spirit and what to expect when you believe in Jesus.

But there is not a silver bullet that says the gifts have ceased. I am using Justin Peter's words.

So on that basis base alone we can clearly see where the deception lies.

We were warned that in the last days that people would have a a form of Godliness by deny the power.

Ironic how the gifts are being heatedly debated with absolutely no fruit of the Spirit being demonstrated at all.

Like Corinth, the more excellent way is tabled for the carnality of seeking gifts and the opinions of men.

Carry on.

I agree with Colin

[On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience.
Probably not much point to discuss this any further.]

What is wrong with an experience that is recorded in the bible over and over?

John McArthur may say many right and good things, but he wrote "Charismatic Chaos" and hosted the "Strange Fire" conference. He is the point of reference and the go to ministry when it comes to cessationism.

He is not only ignorant, but outright hostile towards anything charistmatic and pentecostal and malignes Spirit filled Christians. He and his companions Justin Peters and Phil Johnson did damage to the body of Christ. Michael Brown reached out to Justin to discuss this matter, but he refused.

When you read Acts, they made sure everbody was receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Peter and John went into Samaria to lay hands on the believers. Paul laid hands on the disciples of John the Baptist.

I conclude that the filling of the Holy Spirit is an essential part of the whole process of conversion and becoming a disciple of Jesus. How can you do without?

That's your opinion and can't be backed up by scripture, you seem to think it is carnal to seek after the gifts of the Spirit.

Paul twice tells us to "earnestly desire” them, adding, "especially that we may prophesy” (1 Corinthians 12:31; 14:1).

Jog on

You can not do without baptism of the Spirit. As scripture says, you are not saved without it.

I don't know why people keep harping on about cessationists when there are none here.

I know I had signed out of this thread but may I be forgiven just this once. Yes the sister is not be understood as a Cessationalist. Rather with toungues, she believes they were never the way we present them and thefore as a professed continualist expect them to only contintue the way she understands they started. The thread got confused because it was strated around the same time with the On tongues one.

I am glad that many posts have done justice to what I have just tried to clarify.

At brother Evan, while it is easy to get carnal about it, as I said on another thread, it is not wrong to talk a matter over in hope to find clarity. And it is in these talks where you may get to see who is falling short of the Christ-like spirit. But discussions themselves are not wrong.

And if you may try to understand the issue well, brethren are being offended because that which they cherish (who does not cherish a gift though received from an earthly giver?) is being being suspected to be a possible curse. And so they are trying to lay out supporting arguments that seek to show that the whole thing is supportey by scrptures.

So it would be nice to share your input on the topic instead, brother Evan. Especially as you have seen on the other thread that this issue was said to be big enough that praying together could not be possible. Is it therefore not worth being ironed out in hope that the Lord may grant clarity where needed?

Kervin,

The irony of anyone taking offense over these topics is that if anyone was truly, in reality and not in doctrinal theory, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they wouldn't take offense, or feel it necessary to defend whether or not they were actually baptized in the Holy Spirit. The truth is, Jesus - and the Holy Spirits purpose is to glorify Him, not our experiences and prejudices against others and how they believe about these things.

This thread is entirely centered on the power of the Spirit, and yet the trend of the debate is away from each other, division, strife, and if what you said is true and it has been stated "brethren" in this thread are even unable to pray together as a result of these discussions, well it has to be said, perhaps not all here are in fact "brethren".

If you are truly indwelt with the Holy Spirit, you will find in your life an all consuming passion for, and devotion to Jesus - and will lift Him up in all things. The gifts are secondary to the primary purpose of God, the glorification of Jesus and the manifestation of God in love (see 1st John).

This entire thread glorifies individuals and their experiences and explanations, and all the while the words of Jesus are heartily ignored. It doesn't even make sense for me to quote Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit, or to mention how that teaching is to be the central truth and guiding interpretation to any discussion about the work of the Holy Spirit - I'll get told, to quote Colin, to "jog on".

I tend to think that this exact type of thing, these fruitless and endless debates, the appeals to men and one saying, "I am of the holiness movement" and another "I am of the Pentecostal movement" - this is exactly what Paul talked about in his epistle. To be blinded to that is baffling to me. It's a literal fulfillment of everything Paul told us to avoid.

You all may mean well, but this entire thread makes anything your discussing a laughingstock - if it causes this amount of division, anger and strife, it doesn't glorify Jesus in the least.

The irony here is that no matter what I say no one will get it anyway, because the Holy Spirit has to quicken these things to each of us individually - and intellectual pride, a prejudicial reliance on our experiences, and an unwillingness to be authentic rather than right are all hindrances to this very thing - the Holy Spirit you are arguing about is grieved and quenched - therefore you won't hear Him if He were to speak.

This thread is in miniature what Corinth was in large - and to miss that is astounding.

God will not grant any of you clarity in this matter, because in order for that to happen, every single one of you would have to harbor the possibility that you could be wrong - and that means you would all have to be authentic and real with one another. This, it seems, is impossible. Walking in the light is to walk in authentic relationship with one another and with Jesus - you all disagree with each other, yet not one of you could possibly be wrong - if it wasn't tragic you would think this scenario was a punch line.

Edited

Re-subscribing to the thread for now.

I see I may have been a bit late but wished to add to my previous post the following: offended (in Christ)...

Also, I wanted to add that it is not only offense but condemnation also, brother. That those who are presenting tongues in the manner the majority did have gotten it wrong and must make amends. What do you do when thus condemned, brother Evan - seat back and watch or try to reason so far as is justified (like Paul would do with the Jews, etc)?

PS. Brother Evan, my advise to you is to not generalise (like you tend to do on heated talks) but to take time and censor each commentor where warranted and share supporting scriptures accordingly. Because not two of us are on the same spiritual journey distance I think. This is practiced by brother Travis for one and I commend it.

"The extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, such as the gift of tongues, of miracles, of prophecy, &c., are called extraordinary, because they are such as are not given in the ordinary course of God’s providence. They are not bestowed in the way of God’s ordinary providential dealing with his children, but only on extraordinary occasions, as they were bestowed on the prophets and apostles to enable them to reveal the mind and will of God before the canon of Scripture was complete, and so on the primitive Church, in order to the founding and establishing of it in the world. But since the canon of the Scripture has been completed, and the Christian Church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased." -Jonathan Edwards

I don't agree with Edward's statement here, but it would be beyond silly to call Jonathan Edwards a heretic.

Someone I consider to be a dear brother in Christ rejects my testimony and calls me a false convert. I love him, forgive him, and call him a friend to this day. I have absolutely no bitterness.

It is very telling to me the visceral, angry reaction some people have when you even QUESTION their doctrine on the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone who doesn't see things exactly the way you do is a religious Pharisee. I think if you look over the history of the church, you will see God using people who are soundly saved and preach the gospel, regardless of their views on this subject.

Paul clearly answers the dispute by giving us 1 Corinthians 13 and 14.

Chapter 13 is about love which is in its' entirety, the fruit of the Spirit (not one of its' fruit(s)) and comes FIRST: chapter 14 follows and condemns how they were practicing the gift of tongues described in Acts 2.

Edited (changed whatever to some - for graceful language)

Brother Nigel, some things needs to be corrected while others could be borne with.

"[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."

Some were, for some reason, tempted to forbid speaking in tongues. Paul comes in and say: forbid not. Let it continue - only in orderly manner.

Edited

@sister Brenda. I agree Paul thus address the dispute of gifts at Corith. I however wish to remind you that if you still cannot pray with me as well as all other thread participants here,who asserted tongues as I did, then the core of what brought about our dispute remains unattained.

We are back where we started. And still needs help (however God can grant it). Meaning thee passage about love you quoted did not help us as Paul hoped it would help the Corinthians. I say all this because it may seem like we are rejecting the passage about love you quoted.

Anyone commenting further herefrom should please remember that this is where is all began. Including those who might say: okay, no need to pray with each other if it is so. Pray alone or with those who do not mind.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this without being suspicious of intentions, but:

I DO NOT REFUSE TO PRAY WITH CHARISMATICS OR OTHERS WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH ME OVER TONGUES AND HAVE BEEN DOING SO IN MY LOCALITY.

I do however, draw away from those where I have felt the Holy Spirit lead me.

No need to shout it, sister Brenda as you are the one who said you minded in the first place. If it is so, then it is all well from me.

PS: What I recall is that you chose to remain silent when I last brought your two contradictory statements.

I do not know, it may be worth withdrawing from SI discussions for me if its lack of Church structure results in us getting into fights that helplessly gets out hands like this.

You suggested praying together and I refrained. You have made such a fuss about that instead of just accepting it and my wish to leave your church and not discuss with you any more.

I felt the restraining of the Spirit when I first found out that instead of just enquiring out about your online church, I had suddenly become a member. I missed that.

I would have just let it all go but you haven't hence my need to lay it out in public.

A Church cannot belong to a person if I understand scriptures well. But it is well.

PS. Paul setup many churches and none belonged to him. What I remember is that I came here first and asked if any knew of a worthy online Church. When there was no suggestion I later undertook to setup one (having basic web design background).

//We don't find that anywhere in scripture for Babel and Pentacost. Conflating these two events is an idea of a man, not a truth of scripture. We use scripture to establish doctrine. To establish doctrine based upon something a man thinks he found in scripture is, in my opinion, dangerous as it adds to the Bible an idea that is not there.//

If you don't see it, then I cannot help on that one any further. It seems so impossible for me not to see that it is about the divisions of languages by God and in the enabling of Him for men to understand each other and to give His Son Jesus His endorsement..

Brother you are making a leap to turn praying in the Spirit to praying in tongues that is not there.

//"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Later, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all, yet in the church..."//

Paul is now speaking of foreign languages that the speaker does not know.

It is not a matter of whether one "sees" it. It is a matter of whether the Bible teaches it. Can you give me clear teaching from scripture that parallels Babel and Pentacost? For something to be a type, there must be an antetype. We cannot just "see" it and say it is so. Scripture must teach it.

I am also not sure how you say that praying in tongues is just not there and then immediately quote Paul saying that when I pray in tongues... Can we just say, "Well pray in tongues does not mean pray in tongues. It means something else." The word here in the Greek for pray is proseuchomai, very clearly the word used for prayer in the entirety of the New Testament.

Is it possible that you have predetermined what you are want the scripture to say?

I don't agree with Edward's statement here, but it would be beyond silly to call Jonathan Edwards a heretic.

AMEN Nigel! When we find ourselves in disagreement, we cannot simply call one another heretic and justify our own position. We have to wrestle with scripture. We have to be willing to ask ourselves, "What does scripture clearly say?"

I appreciate Narrowpath's input. But I cannot agree that Brenda, as someone who does not seem to accept tongues as a part of the present day church, a heretic. I disagree with her on some doctrinal things. I think its good to discuss it. But I do not believe she is to be avoided. I know many sincere and true believers who share her perspective.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this without being suspicious of intentions, but:

I DO NOT REFUSE TO PRAY WITH CHARISMATICS OR OTHERS WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH ME OVER TONGUES AND HAVE BEEN DOING SO IN MY LOCALITY.

I do however, draw away from those where I have felt the Holy Spirit lead me.

As it should be in the church. Amen.

How can one have an online church? I get the online community. I get the open communication we have. When we discuss things here, members of the church are discussing things. There is the global church, the body of Christ. But "a church" is a local body. The church is the global body or, perhaps, a regional body. But A church, as in a particular, small group of believers, meets in person and are involved in one another's lives. We can fellowship online to a small degree, but I am not sure you could call it A Biblical church.

If you have missed it, brother Travis, I have continued outside a local Church for years. I could not find a worthy one locally. But now more so I have a special needs child who is best comfortable at home. I tried to join one AFM church without success due to the special-needs child's odd needs. (and they did not seem to could help much).

Yes the church will be limited but we can sing together, take counsel together, pray together, break bread together, and be there to support each other socially where needed. Share deeper secretes that are not easy to share here on SI so we pray one for another etc.

PS: "Her hip-joint was stiff, so that she was never able to walk without the support of a cane or crutch. For eight years she could not leave her own little yard, nor climb into a carriage, nor walk without support."

Could not leave the yard for 8 years. While there cars now, not all have them for example.

Source: www.gutenberg.org/files/11553/11553-h/11553-h.htm
The wonders of prayer

Oh the said online church is here: https://likechristfellowship.church/ for your perusal.

The thread: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=66153&forum=35

Travis

I know this is not what you are looking for, but it has been seen as such throughout church history:

"Two fourth-century fathers clearly make this connection. First, Cyril of Jerusalem:

The multitude of the hearers was confounded;””it was a second confusion, in the room of that first evil one at Babylon. For in that confusion of tongues there was division of purpose, because their thought was at enmity with God; but here minds were restored and united, because the object of interest was godly. (Lecture 17.17)

Gregory of Nazianzus, during his discussion of Pentecost, contrasts Babel:

But as the old Confusion of tongues was laudable, when men who were of one language in wickedness and impiety, even as some now venture to be, were building the Tower; for by the confusion of their language the unity of their intention was broken up, and their undertaking destroyed; so much more worthy of praise is the present miraculous one [i.e., the tongues at Pentecost]. For being poured from One Spirit upon many men, it brings them again into harmony. (Oration 41)

Augustine, shortly thereafter, clearly makes the connection in his exposition of Psalm 55:9:

Recollect that tower of proud men made after the deluge [...] they builded up a lofty tower, and the Lord divided the tongues of them. [...] Through proud men, divided were the tongues; through humble Apostles, united were the tongues. Spirit of pride dispersed tongues, Spirit Holy united tongues. For when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples, with the tongues of all men they spake, by all men they were understood: tongues dispersed, into one were united. (Psalm LV.10)

A number of later fathers continued this understanding. In the sixth century, we have Pseudo-Fulgentius (quoted in Henri de Lubac, Catholicism) and, quoted here, Arator:

Then there was a confusion of tongues, though they were of the same race; now there is one tongue though the peoples are many. (Quoted in Hiller, Arator on the Acts)

And in the early 8th century, Bede refers to the Church speaking various languages at Pentecost:

How the arrogance of Babylon scattered the unity of languages, [and] the humbleness of the Church gathers it back. (Commentary on Acts)"

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/48724/who-first-described-pentecost-as-a-reversal-of-babel

I don't know of all Types that are spoken of specifically in scripture.

//I am also not sure how you say that praying in tongues is just not there and then immediately quote Paul saying that when I pray in tongues... Can we just say, "Well pray in tongues does not mean pray in tongues. It means something else." The word here in the Greek for pray is proseuchomai, very clearly the word used for prayer in the entirety of the New Testament.

Is it possible that you have predetermined what you are want the scripture to say?//

Speaking in tongues is in Acts 2. The private prayer language which you seem to be saying that Paul admitted, is not.

Brenda: Again, does scripture itself connect Babel with New Testament tongues? The fact that early Christians believed something does not make it so. They were just as flawed as we are and just as prone to opinion as we are. The question is, does scripture teach that the two are related of that one is a type of the current antetype?

I am confused about your point that Luke did not write about praying in tongues but Paul did. Have I missed something? I thought the issue we were dealing with there was whether praying in tongues, devotionally, was scriptural. In that case, does it matter whether Luke or Paul discussed it?

Kervin: I am not trying in any way to offend you. I just wondered how an online church would work. If that is the only way you have to fellowship, then it is awesome that technology allows this to happen. Imagine if you had absolutely no fellowship. I just don't think it meets the requirements, at least Biblically, for an actual church. I guess that was the point of my question.

Fully understood. While to be ever inferior compared to a traditional kind, it proves to be far better than nothing indeed.