This is the second time I’ve heard a pastor say this as of resent; one even said it six time during the course of his sermon.“I don’t want to make anyone feel guilty. What good could come out of that?”What? How is someone suppose to come to repentance without feeling guilty? Is their even such a thing as repentance without any feeling of guilt? How could a pastor say such a thing?I also listened to a sermon by Dave Wilkerson recently where he said. “I hope every one who hears this feels guilty and condemned so that they may be brought to repentance.” Isn’t this the type of thing pastors should be saying?In my opinion if a pastor says such a thing (I don’t want to make anyone feel guilty) it is a clear sign that he is a wolf and a false teacher. What does everyone else think? Could a pastor actually say such a thing and be real at the same time? Isn’t a pastor who uses such phases just give a false sense of repentance and/or a false sense of security, thus preach a false gospel and a false Jesus?
No guilt pastors???
2Pe 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord {as} salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,2Pe 3:16 as also in all {his} letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as {they do} also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him {be} the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
In my opinion if a pastor says such a thing (I don’t want to make anyone feel guilty) it is a clear sign that he is a wolf and a false teacher. What does everyone else think?Since you asked,No I don't think this simple test is sufficient to pass judgement. Not every pastor who says "I don't want to make you feel guilty" is a wolf. His preaching may not meet your approval...but to call him a wolf is unwarranted.Make no mistake about it...wolves are real and they like the taste of sheep. However I don't think we can ever pass judgement on simple quotations alone! Don't you think a wolf can study theology too and preach a sermon that will meet your approval? Real wolves manifest themselves by their whole fruit...not just their preaching words brother....There are more and more so-called "discernment ministries" popping up all the time. I don't think God has asked us to track wolves and hunt them down. In fact, I don't think wolf hunting is a valid ministry in the least. We should be reluctant to cry wolf. Otherwise we won't have any credibility when we encounter the real thing.Just my experience with the subject.MC
Compton,Are you stating that you believe it is acceptable to preach repentance without guilt? That you cannot feel guilty and still come to repentance. If this is what you are implying, you are welcome to your own opinion. I just don’t see it in Scripture. I just wanted to clarify your post.
I've actually heard preachers say that "guilt doesnt come from the Holy Spirit". That was back when we were in the whole Charismatic thing... Heard it a lot back then.Krispy
my first reaction was frustration and bewilderment after i read what you replied to compton's stating of the issue brother/or sister(sorry about that)but i would strongly suggest you re-read what he wrote... there are things implied in there that you glossed over in your final judgment- at least i feel that way. let's be certain; this is also a judgement upon you of what you said, and i've come to that conclusion only after i read how and what you replied to compton's reply.for my own thoughts on the matter, i know and am confident in the One who illuminates us, that me being the least amongst the many in here for the light to be show forth Obedience, there are more noble brothers and sisters that obey God more fully with their hearts that will be able to discern the matter for you with gentleness and with great wisdom.
Without a sense of guilt for our transgressions and rebelion against God--we don't even understand the importance of reconcling with Him and we don't see the importance of the blood of Our Jesus nor do we understand having our sins forgiven. "Godly Sorrow works repentence". Perhaps he was speaking of guilt not for past sins that have been confessed and repented and are forgiven. just a thought.
sb1175,I wasn't casting judgment on Compons response. I was just asking him to clarify what he thinks about repentance and guilt. I wanted clarification so that I would not pass judgment without cause. Once I get clarification I can answer other things written in his post more accurately.
inotof,you wrote:"Perhaps he was speaking of guilt not for past sins that have been confessed and repented and are forgiven. just a thought."If that was the case the statement would be fine. But the fact is one preacher was talking specifically about greed and covetousness among Christians, and the other about Christians involved in adultery and sexual sin. The statement is used like this. If I knew you were stealing from your work and I said to you. “Brother stealing even from you work is sin, but I don’t want to make you feel guilty. So you should repent and stop stealing”
What? How is someone suppose to come to repentance without feeling guilty? Is their even such a thing as repentance without any feeling of guilt? How could a pastor say such a thing?Please consider this suggestion?Guilt is a legal state of being condemned by God for sin and sins, whether we 'feel' it or not. And although we are given the faculties to perceive guilt as a 'feeling', it is not necessary to feel guilty. One can be completely numb and recognise one's being out of fellowship with God, one's need of a Saviour; one can give intellectual and spiritual assent, without a flicker of emotion. I believe Brother Andrew describes his decision to give his life to Christ as 'cold-blooded', after he had been reading the Bible to himself every day for two years.There are preachers who can make their listeners feel guilty for wearing the wrong shoes, or haircut. This brings no-one closer to God, but, an understanding that faith in Jesus Christ will remove all barriers (not just notionally, but in spiritual fact, whether one 'feels' that He has or not) is what is needed.We all know that faith is required, whether we feel God close or not. We believe He is close because He tells us He is in us and we in Him.This is what makes Romans 5:1 + 2 wonderful.Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Nothing about feelings there....But I know what you mean. It may be that the pastor who said these things understands how crushing guilt can be. It is a serious depressant. Perhaps he was concentrating on making sure folk knew what is required to deal with the level of guilt they already felt?
Feeling sorry and feeling guilty are one in the same. If you do not feel guilty - you do not feel sorry - if you do not feel sorry - you have not repented.You can not repent for something you don't feel guilty or sorry for.
You may be right about the need for some emotion, even tears, but still please beware of 'feeling' rather than 'being' sorry. Christ became sin for us. I'm sure He 'felt' it, but it was His becoming which took our sin away.True repentance identifies with a decision to turn away from sin, and for the unemotional persons who may be reading this, for those whose 'feelings' have been shredded by the trials of life and love, I maintain it is more important to understand the good news. That by faith we can dump all our unknowable and unexpressible condition on Jesus and He will receive as we are - even if we don't have 'feelings' of repentance. In the eternal moment when our spirit opens itself to God for the first time, (or the next time) and even after we have received forgiveness from Him, we may or may not 'feel' what has happened, but there will always be objective evidence.
Are you stating that you believe it is acceptable to preach repentance without guilt?... I just wanted to clarify your post.Patrick,Apologies for my delay in responding...Thanks for asking for clarity. I appreciate that much. No, I did not mean to state that repentance could be made without the need for admission of guilt. Afterall Paul showed us how the Law was a teacher that takes us to Christ. Certainly the knowledge and conviction of our sin, and the recognition that we stand guilty as charged by God, precedes our repentance and turning from sin. You and I are on the same page here I think.However, your original question was this:In my opinion if a pastor says such a thing (I don’t want to make anyone feel guilty) it is a clear sign that he is a wolf and a false teacher. What does everyone else think?The reason I said no was because I thought your test was too simple. I wasn't endorsing what the pastor was saying, but neither could I condemn him as a wolf based solely on the testimony you shared. Perhaps, from your own personal experience with these pastors there is additional information that you were sparing to be discreet on their behalf.So, it seems to me we are talking about two different issues here. 1) How to discern a wolf in sheep’s clothing2) The importance of preaching guilt in the message of repentanceMy initial answer was addressing the first issue, which I thought was your primary question. In addition to my answer, I offered the opinion that we should not be too quick to denounce our pastors, (and each other), as wolves and false teachers.Hopefully, this clarifies my first post brother. For what it's worth, I appreciate and admire your uncompromising heart on these matters.MC
Compton,That you for your clarification. I do agree that the test presented in my post was possible to simple. But I think such statements should raise a red flag and alarm bells. We should then be extra careful and discerning about the teaching of such a man. And we should examine them further to make it was not some slip of the tongue or rare off the wall statement (we are all guilty of this at sometime or another in our lives)Thanks for your input. I will continue to attend this Pastors church on a regular basis so that I can further examine his teachings and then confront him if necessary.
dorcas,I can't see how one can come to Biblical repentance without feeling guilty. It is true that guilt is a feeling or emotion, and even unemotional people feel guilty for their sins when they come to repentance. I do agree that feelings of guilt alone are not the only test of true repentance. One must also turn from their sins and stop their sinful behavior if they are truly repentant. But I think that both (feeling guilty and turning from sin) are required for true repentance. I would think that some one who turns from their sins but has no feeling of guilt, conviction or remorse for what they have done would just be a legalist or Pharisee. Right?If either part is removed, (i.e. repentance without turning from sin or repentance with no guilt) you have not truly repented.If anyone disagree I would like to hear why.
A person has to be earnest and honest in a repentence. The level of feeling of sorrow for what they did may vary, but to determine anything spiritual by feeling alone is dangerous. Feeling is a response to emotions. So many people seek God looking for a feeling as a sign of fulfillment. There has to be remorse present, but please be careful about judging anything spiritual by feeling alone.I want to add one more thing. I am not saying coming to the realization that a person is guilty is not necessary it is. But brokenness isnt just a feeling, it is a state of mind and spirit. A person can feel one thing and not be in the right spirit. I am just saying be careful by judging remorse and brokenness by feeling in itself.
Thanks Johny - I agree.
Hi Christisking, :-)I would think that some one who turns from their sins but has no feeling of guilt, conviction or remorse for what they have done would just be a legalist or Pharisee. Right?They may be using willpower, but that doesn't make them either a legalist or a Pharisee. You are using your imagination to disagree with my point. I'm also surprised that you can agree with JohnnyAnt's but not my previous posts. I am trying to make you aware that there are people who need to hear the gospel or to turn away from sin whose response to God has nothing to do with whether they can identify what they are 'feeling' - because, they deserve our compassionate respect as much as the person whose feelings are so useful to him, he knows exactly what he is feeling and why. However, I understand your concern that a pastor should not feel guilty about the feelings of guilt in his listeners, rather, he should expect them and be at ease with this situation. Further, if the pastor himself is feeling guilty and the cause is unresolved with God, he may be projecting his discomfort on to his congregation.
Quote:"However, I understand your concern that a pastor should not feel guilty about the feelings of guilt in his listeners, rather, he should expect them and be at ease with this situation. Further, if the pastor himself is feeling guilty and the cause is unresolved with God, he may be projecting his discomfort on to his congregation." GREAT POINT!!! I appreciate the discussion.Please don’t get me wrong - I am not accusing you of being or calling you a legalist or a Pharisee, but was rather posing a question.I am not necessarily disagreeing with your point. I do not feel that the feeling of guilt for ones sins is the only requirement of repentance, just one of the necessary ingriedience. I am sure that there are many who have been pricked to heart by the Holy Spirit and have felt guilty, but have shrugged it off in the end and went right on sinning. (I have done this very same thing in the past) I am also sure that other have tried to live by the letter of the law with no guilt for past sins in some legalistic manner.My understanding is that one must 1. feel guilty, 2. repent, and 3. turn from their sin in order for repentance to occur. I will study the Scriptures further on this matter and pray. If you have any Scriptures for my consideration please let me know.Thanks,
I think some very good scriptures to test oneself on repentence... whether a person is fulfilling true repentence.. is James 4:5-10. Even though it may not him on the actual word repentence, it goes through the steps required for answer prayer which takes care of repentence.All the verses go through necessary conditions. Just speaking on the prospect of guilt and feeling which has been kind of the point of discussion as of late look at verse 9."Be afflicted, and morun, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness."People may become confused with what they are feeling or their feelings may be misguided. A person may feel happy, but a person can BE joyful in the Lord. A person may feel afflicted, but BE afflicted. It has to be a state of submission and sense of unworthiness, which goes past the point of just feeling.The discussion has been very good, please no one get offended. Discussion makes us analyze and go to the Lord in prayer for answers.
Hi Christisking,Did you really agree with this?'The level of 'feeling' of sorrow for what they did may vary, but to determine anything spiritual by 'feeling' alone is dangerous.... but please be careful about judging anything spiritual by 'feeling' alone... brokenness isnt just a 'feeling', it is... I am just saying be careful by judging remorse and brokenness by 'feeling' in itself.' (JohnnyAnt)
Dorcas,Absolutely, I do agree- Here is my take,The level of feeling may vary to differing degrees but must not be nonexistent. And we certainly cannot judge repentance by feeling alone, although the feeling of guilt must be present and one of the thing with which we are to judge. (ourselves not others - for how can we know what someone else feels - unless they tell us)Brokenness is a feeling but not just a feeling and therefore we cannot judge it by feeling in itself, but must also take other factors into account. Feeling is just one factor of the equationQuote:'The level of 'feeling' of sorrow for what they did may vary, but to determine anything spiritual by 'feeling' alone is dangerous.... but please be careful about judging anything spiritual by 'feeling' alone... brokenness isnt just a 'feeling', it is... I am just saying be careful by judging remorse and brokenness by 'feeling' in itself.' (JohnnyAnt)I agree with the above quote completely.To determine anything spiritual by 'feeling' alone is dangerous, but to take feeling (as in the emotion or feeling of guilt which accompanies repentance) completely out of the equation is just as dangerous.I hope that makes sense. What do you think?
Feeling is just one factor of the equation... What do you think?I hope one day you'll appreciate that faith isn't a feeling, just like guilt isn't a feeling, and a person's ability to respond to God, repent and be saved, doesn't depend on their feelings. There may well be 'feelings' while all this is happening, but they may not match 'what' is happening. I feel I'm speaking a language you've never encountered before, so I probably should make this my last post on this particular point.
I hope one day you'll appreciate that faith isn't a feeling, just like guilt isn't a feeling,...I think guilt can be both a condition and a feeling. You can be guilty of a crime and not feel guilt, and inversely you can *feel* guilty without *being* guilty.Excessive feelings of guilt can prevent a person repenting from the guilty state. It can also make born again Christians ineffective.The primary aim is to deal with the condition of guilt and not the feelings which may or may not be proportional to the person`s condition.Derek Prince once stated "Repentance is a decision, not an emotion." You can feel remorse, and yet not repent from (turn from) your sins.
PassingThru,I love your username. Welcome to SI. Hope you'll be blessed all round.I think guilt can be both a condition and a feeling. You can be guilty of a crime and not feel guilt, and inversely you can *feel* guilty without *being* guilty.Excessive feelings of guilt can prevent a person repenting from the guilty state. It can also make born again Christians ineffective.The primary aim is to deal with the condition of guilt and not the feelings which may or may not be proportional to the person`s condition.You said it very well. I didn't like to begin to talk about false guilt or incomplete repentance, nor that God can divide this all up into little pieces for the confused believer. But you captured a whole world in those few lines. Thanks.
Boy this is turning into quite a discussion. I'll address Passingthru first.you are correct that guilt is both a condition and a feeling. But for the sake of discussion we are talking about spiritual guilt and criminal guilt. The whole(un-repented)world is guilty before the God and has no knowledge or feeling of it. If they never have any knowledge or feeling of then they have never repented. It is when they come to realization that they are guilty is where repentance begins. Now a person might realize they are guilty before Gods and say "Oh, well - who cares?" This happens a lot. But it is when they experience a heart felt sorrow (feeling of guilt) for their transgression against God that repents occurs. If the turn from their sins and stop their behavior, then we have true repentance. The equation is complete. We must understand the feelings of guilt that bring about repentance is brought about through conviction of the Holy Spirit. These feeling of misplaced guilt that you speak of are brought on by the Accuser (Satan) as Christians we must know the difference. I have delt with people before who are under terrible bondage to the Accuser Satan and walk around feeling constantly condemned for passed sins or things which are not even sin. These people have a spirit of perfection which drives them into some legalist bondage.Conviction produces guilt. Without conviction there is no (Biblical) repentance. Thus without guilt there is no Biblical repentance. We can be sure that there has never been true repentance without conviction and its counter part - guilt. In fact, just to clarify further, I am using conviction and guilt as synonyms. Now I now you may say you could be convicted of a crime and not feel guilt. But, again I am talking about spiritual conviction and spiritual guilt - not worldly conviction or wordly guilt. For instance, it would be ridiculous to say - “I was terribly convicted by the Holy Spirit but I felt no guilt what so ever.”
dorcus,Please for the sake of argument bear with me. I going to take this nice and slow and step by step as to make sure we are on the same page and neither of us gets confused or lost in the process. I am not trying to sound condescending at all but want to make sure NEITHER of us get confused and find out exactly were we differ, if at all.Step 1. Without Holy Spirit conviction, there is no Biblical repentance.Yes or no?
I know on the surface this will look as if I'm siding with this pastor or pastors in question. So let me make a few things clear first.1) The law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul. I believe it I preach and teach it.2)The power of the cross is in the preaching of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the message I deliver.Now for your consideration.Here's a few questions. Since I don't have the actual sermon in question it's really hard to make any real judgement. Proverbs says that a fool answers a matter without full knowledge.Question 1) Have you ever been in leadership with the full responsibility of the lives of other people and the oversight of a building with all the responsibilities that goes with that terristory ,i.e. utilities, payments to banks , taxes, upkeep, staffing, ect....Question 2)Have you ever been in a position to have your every word and action dissected in public . Your motives are second guessed, your words and sermons are discussed as having been from the flesh or the Holy Spirit.Question 3) Has God the Holy Spirit called you to sit in Moses seat to judge anothers servant? I do believe some are called but that thier ministry is brought before the church by the Holy Spirit and they are equipted to fulfill that ministry. Who here is such a one?Question 4) Guilt? When He (not me) comes He will CONVICT....... I've seen people break down under conviction and repent after being told that Jesus Loves them. That was all that was said and the Holy Spirit did the rest.It would seem to me that the pastor in question isn't false or even a wolf in sheeps clothing. Maybe he's just under alot of pressure and needs the encouragement to stand strong for the high standards of God's holiness?All in all I think we all need to give the grace to others we ourselves hope to recieve from God, oh....., and did I mention that no less than Jesus' ever lives to make intercession for ~ ~ you fill in the blank.Finially, all my comments made here ARE NOT directed at anyone specific in this thread or on this board. I just believe satan is so good at keeping christians divided through the pastors flesh and weaknesses that the church can't be the church with power. Looking unto Jesus the author and perfector of our faith. Think about it.
“I was terribly convicted by the Holy Spirit but I felt no guilt what so ever.”Brother, the word of God can divide between the marrow and the bone, the soul and the spirit, who are you to say He can't convict without a feeling of guilt? You are basing your whole argument on your own experience. Maybe the experience of many others. Even if you'd just say you've never heard of this, that would be progress, instead of telling me there is no such thing.Also you said 'Conviction produces guilt'. No, it may or it may not. I maintain that the guilt was there first, as you actually said yourself, admitting that the whole world is guilty but doesn't 'feel' it. With conviction comes the desire to turn away from sin, but believe me when I say, this moment of decision may be remarkably free of emotion or, or of appropriate emotion. This is the only thing I was trying to say, and PassingThru backed me up with a brilliantly placed few words.I'm completely serious here. Some people's emotions are beyond recall. They were tattered years before they heard the gospel. They are not excluded from responding, just because they are in deep need of emotional healing. Guilt may have been laid on them for all sorts of things they had no control over. All they now need to know is, Jesus can heal them, He loves them, He took their burdens (of sin, shame, guilt and death) and they are released in Jesus Name, by faith to receive healing, forgiveness, and life eternal and life more abundant. It's not up to you to decide how much of all that made sense to them, because God will meet them. All I warn is, the deeper the emotional trauma from which they turn, the less likely they will show normal emotions. Please be prepared for this in your heart and mind. Take on board this tiny piece of information?
Dorcas,Sorry I have been so long in responding, but I've been busy with website and church stuff. Here are some Scriptures for you to contemplate. 1. Think about what Paul has to say about the feelings of sorrow (guilt) and it's relation to repentance. 2. Also, consider how the Holy Spirit (through the apostle Paul) brought these members of the Corinthian Church to repentance. 3. What feelings are present and necessary for their coming to repentance? Remember - the feeling of guilt (adjective)and the act of being guilty (noun) are two totally different things. This maybe where you are getting confused. I am not talking about the act of being guilty (noun) but the feeling of guilt (adjective). Please be sure to respond about the feeling of guilt (adjective) rather than the act of being guilty (noun). Be careful not to get the two mixed up.I should have more time to respond further this weekend, but in the mean time take a look at these Scriptures while contemplating the above three points and give me your thoughts.2 Corinthians 7:8-118 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
quote:“I don’t want to make anyone feel guilty. What good could come out of that?”---------------------------------------------------I think I simply have different connotations associated with some of the language being used here and I don't have time to look them all up right now. I am fully open to the fact that I may be the one with the wrong connotations. But I think clarifying the interpretation of the language helps to get everyone on the same page. As I stated in the thread about obese Christians. I associate guilt (adj) with condemnation = no hope. I don't equate guilt (adj) with always having Godly sorrow that leads to repentance. I think it is possible to feel guilty, (yes I have transgressed, I know it was wrong but I would do it again) and not be sorry. Say perhaps someone has taken vengence into their own hands and felt justified in their actions. They knew their actions were wrong but felt justified because they felt the person deserved it. On the other hand I equate conviction with Godly sorrow. You have hope and are drawn to repentence. How can someone come to repentence if they have no hope of being redeemed? HopeinChrist
Christisking,First, let me say the scripture you quote is excellent for our discussion. Please be sure to respond about the feeling of guilt (adjective) rather than the act of being guilty (noun). Be careful not to get the two mixed up.THE FEELING (noun) of guilt (adjective) = 'guilty' (adj) 'feeling'. Agreed?Going back to 2 Cor 7:8 -11, 'Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance.' Here Paul is showing that he understands it is possible to 'feel' guilt or sorrow about sin, but yet, not repent of it. Do you accept this?Taking in this of Paul's statement 'but the sorrow of the world worketh death' perhaps this is a aspect of my thesis -Proverbs 13:12Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. Not only preaching, but other things can produce 'feelings of guilt' in a person, which when not mixed with 'the word of faith' and hope, act as a depressant - a great big load of indistinguishable 'feelings' which eventually, to survive, are numbed out by the depressive - and anything which once could be defined as 'feeling guilty', then acts as an anaesthetic to other feelings, and in particular, produces a phobia about guilt which actually hinders the mental processes. If you are looking for individual 'godly sorrow' from one who feels like this, then trying to make them feel guilty, will not enhance their being able to respond to the gospel. But they can, despite their lack of available 'feelings' (of guilt or anything) respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, as HopeinChrist points out. What is needed, is Him to evoke an appropriate response towards God. This He can do because the 'word of God' to their spirit cuts right through the numbness. A pleasing display of tearfulness may meet the eye of the observer, but would be a mistake to attribute them confidently, to 'feelings of guilt'. Other people used to living with an abnormal level of internal numbness, paradoxically, often function especially well at a mental level. Through their mind, they filter everything for logic, content and universal meaning. This group is also capable of responding unemotionally to the truth of God's word, as the Holy Spirit enlivens it to their spiritual understanding. The thread began with your concerns about how a preacher addresses a crowd when preaching to them. I was responding to your insistence that 'feelings' of guilt are necessary for repentance. In the circumstances described by Paul, where an entire church was instructed to single out one sinner and give them certain 'treatment' to provoke a carefully planned repsonse, yes, I can see this working as it did in Corinth. I see clearly what you are getting at, but that is a long way from a general discussion about how preaching could or should bring those in a local congregation to appropriate repentance for whatever sins are represented in the hearers.
Im not going to post any comments here but would just like to share with you all my own experience if thats ok.When i finally came to the Lord i felt convicted. It was like a light came on! I came to the Lord and gave my life to Him. Guilt didnt kick in until a relationship was formed and when The Holy Spirit convicted me as a christian i then will feel guilty. I will think "why did i do that, i've sinned against the one i love who has done so much for me". Wow then the repenting would follow.When i gave my life to God i didnt really 'know' Him, but when i began to get to know Him and a relationship was formed oh my goodness i didnt need anyone to make me feel guilty, i had the Holy Spirit doing that :-) I hope this helps,This is just my experience only
This came up on Random Articles on the Home page. It fits so well with this thread, I hope all who read will enjoy it as much as I did and take away not only the message to your own heart, but something of Spurgeon's method, in challenging others to believe.Christ is Precious How precious is Christ to the believer in the hour of conviction of sin, when he says, "Your sins, which are many, are all forgiven you." How precious to you in the hour of sickness, when He comes to you and says, "I will make your bed in your sickness." How precious to you in the day of trial, when He says, "all things work together for your good." How precious when friends are buried, for He says, "I am the resurrection and the life." How precious in your old age, "even in old age I am with you." How precious in the lone chamber of death, for "I will fear no evil, thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff shall comfort me." But last of all, how precious will Christ be when we see Him as He is. All we know of Christ here is as nothing compared with what we shall know hereafter. Believer, when you see Christ's face now, you only see it through a veil--Christ is so glorious, that, like Moses, He is compelled to put a veil upon his face. . . . And if he be lovely here, when He is marred and spit upon, how lovely must He be when He is adored and worshiped. If He is precious on His cross, how much more precious when He sits on His throne. If I can weep before Him and love Him, and live to Him, when I see Him as the despised man of Nazareth, oh, how shall my spirit be knit to Him, when I see His face and behold His crown of glory, when I mark the harpings of the never-ceasing harpers who harp His praise. Wait awhile, Christian. If He is precious to the believer now, when faith is turned to sight He will be more precious still. Go out of this hall, and cry, "O Lord Jesus, I must love thee. I must serve thee better, I must live for thee; I must be ready to die for thee--for Thou art precious to my soul,My transport and my trust. . . . but if He is not precious, then you are not a believer, and you are condemned already because you believe not on the Son of God. (C. H. Spurgeon, Sermons of Rev. C. H. Spurgeon, pp. 365-364).
I can't see how one can come to Biblical repentance without feeling guiltyIf anyone disagree I would like to hear why.I have only really dipped into this topic but it is important to make the point that biblically 'guilt' is never a feeling. In modern language it is so used but never in the bible. In the Bible 'guilt' is blame-worthiness and has nothing at all to do with feeling.If you want a Bible word for that 'feeling' you might use conviction or sorrow and even 'repentance' (as a state as well as an event) but never 'guilt'. The Bible word guilt has a forensic background. In a court of law the officers of the court are not the least interested in how you feel. Some of the most brutal criminals in history and been untroubled by their feelings but they were 'guilty'. And conversely a man may be troubled by 'feelings' where he is 'not -guilty' of the crime of which he is accused.Here is a list of references to 'guilt' in the KJV Gen. 26:10; 42:21; Ex. 20:7; 34:7; Lev. 4:13,22,27; 5:2-5,17; 6:4; Num. 5:6,31; 14:18; 32:22; 35:27,31; Deut. 5:11; 19:13; 21:9; Josh. 2:19; Judg. 21:22; 1Sam. 26:9; 2Sam. 3:28; 14:9; 1Kings 2:9; Ezra 10:19; Prov. 30:10; Ezek. 22:4; Zech. 11:5; Matt. 12:7; 23:18; 26:66; Mark 14:64; Rom. 3:19; 1Cor. 11:27; James 2:10Contrary to what you suggest, 'guilt' is never an adjective in the scriptures. I suggest you find another word for 'guilt as a feeling'; to use non-biblical phrases in this kind of discussion always causes confusion.
Thanks for your input on this subject Ron. I think that is actually what is causing a lot of the confusion. That is the way the pastor used the phrase "feeing guilty" and that is the way I as using it in my posts.I think you are correct in your statements. I also know that the pastor was talking about feeling - he could have said "feeling sorrowful" or "feeling convicted" and his meaning would have remained the same. But again he chose to use the word "guilt" to describe the feeling he was speaking of, so that is the word I used as to not put words in his mouth. Thanks Ron you assessment has cleared up a lot of the confusion for me.What would your take be if he used the word "sorrow" or "convicted"?