But after this the....

Isn't there a difference between the final estate of the wicked and 'us'?The great white throne has come up in other forums, and there seems to be a doctrine that Christians won't be there. I have trouble with this for two reasons - the dividing of the sheep and the goats, (Matt 25:31 - 46) and, the presence of the book of life, here:Revelation 2012 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Thought it is worth mentioning these here, to help keep perspective.1 Corinthians 1131 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Luke 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:Hi PreacherParsly...!This is a great topic for discussion. I currently believe that there is only one judgment. I'll look up some Scriptures and post back more for discussion later! Thanks for starting this thread!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:I agree Brother, there is only one judgment for the Christian--the Bema seat of Jesus Christ for rewards:1 Cor 3: 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.The reason for my belief is above when it says that the Bema judgment seat is a judgment for rewards and all those that go through it are saved:14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (Gold, Silver & Precious Stones). 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (wood hay and stubble): BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.All of the things that he(the believer) didn't do for Christ's glory will be burnt before his eyes as wood, hay and stubble. Those things that he did for Christ's glory he will receive a reward for, but either way he is saved!On the other hand, at the Great White Throne Judgment the Books are opened, the Law and the Lambs Book of Life. Each man that goes to this judgment is judged by the law. His life is weighed in the balance with God's requirements, the law. Unless he/she satisfied them all, 100% of the time he/she is found guilty!Since he/she did not trust Jesus and believe in his death and resurrection, and worship Him as LORD, he cannot be saved and is now described, is now labeled, by the sins he committed during his life by thought or deed- as a fornicator, adulterer, effemenite, etc. etc. etc. At least,that is the way that I see it. None of them (at the Great White Throne) are written in the Lambs Book of Life, and none of them followed the law, by thought or deed, ever. It is an impossibility. Jesus Christ, the God Man is the only one who ever kept the law.One thing that happens at the Great White Throne is that every knee will bow to Jesus as LORD before they are damned to Hell.[The Christians knees are already bowed to Jesus Christ] The have lived their life and have trusted in their own works to be saved. After this judgment they all know that Christ is the only one that could ever follow the law, ever and that they have failed.God bless,Stever

Hi Stever,On grounds of pure English analysis, I don't know how you can suggest that we will be rewarded with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. The original temple was inlaid with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. They were part of the fabric of the building, placed there to glorify God. We are being built into a living temple, in which God Himself can dwell. WE ARE THE Gold, Silver, Precious Stones which help to show off His glory, and Peter puts the whole 'stone' picture in perspective with the rest of the New Testament, including Paul and Jesus, which also calls on Old Testament prophecy. We are also promised in several places in the OT, to be jewels in His crown, again picking up on the 'jewel' picture. This is echoed by Spurgeon in a post I made in the Lounge, (Keep on keeping on) where he says a well-tried saint becomes like a glittering diamond in His crown.This follows the thought in 1 Peter 1 that we must be tried (as by fire) to show forth our like precious faith with Him. This is how we become purer - in the refiner's fire - gold or silver, and precious stones are formed by slow pressure in the depth of the earth - buried.1 Peter 2 (KJV)4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Corinthians 3 (Young's Literal Translation)10 According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it], 11 for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ; 12 and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it, because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove; 14 if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it, a wage he shall receive; 15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire. This makes the most sense in the overall context of the concepts. The fire will show that what is not burnt up is already refined. That's what 'prove' means. The gold, silver and precious stones will survive the flames.JaySaved quoted "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10).The incentive here, is to cease from sin.1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Ok Preach, You sound like you're having fun and think you have a few answers up your sleeve. Please help me out with this one question(s) ;-).On reading other parts of Revelation and other prophetic books, it is clear there is numeric symbolism as well as language containing numbers. Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?Don't we suspect ever so slightly, this is 'code' for something other than 1000 years as we know them? For instance, in many other verses in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, 'day' means age eg, the 'day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2)2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 (Young)And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

All I am doing is taking what I have been taught and seeing if it is right/wrong and to see what parts make it weak or strong. So far, has anything been clarified for you?

Brother Jeff,Thank you for posting all those verses about the judgment and judgments of the Lord. Seeing them laid out like that, helps show how different God's thinking is, than ours and precious must have been the word of God to the psalmist, delighting in it way over any other 'legal' system or idolatry. These days am being challenged to see Truth more objectively, and this helps. Thanks.

Stever writes:I have a very good Bible study on the Bema judgment seat of rewards, the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ:THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF JESUS CHRIST1. What is the Judgment seat (Bema) of Jesus Christ? The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves. If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged? At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat. So many Christians today think that doing this or that worldly thing is more important than spending the time in God's Word and serving Jesus, witnessing to the lost, feeding the poor, and loving others as ourselves. At this judgment, we should indeed see how unimportant so many things we did really were. All of the extra time that was spent listening to a radio or television, or reading meaningless books, may cause us to lose rewards for eternity. All of the extra time that we wasted and spent doing so many meaningless things, such as running after money, pleasures, cares of this life (those things that were not of Jesus), these may now affect our rewards for eternity. This judgment is a judgment of receiving rewards and suffering loss of rewards. A Christian's true desire should be to hear the words, WELL DONE, THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT-Mt 25:21. Paul's attitude should be the Christian's attitude. As it is written, YEA DOUBTLESS, AND I COUNT ALL THINGS BUT LOSS FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: FOR WHOM I HAVE SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS, AND DO COUNT THEM BUT DUNG, THAT I MAY WIN CHRIST-Phili 3:8. Indeed, how important some worldly things or pleasures seem to the Christian now, yet how worthless they will be at this judgment. As a Christian, we need to believe the Gospel and live to please Jesus and not ourselves. We need to ask ourselves in the many things that we do, "What fruit for Jesus is in it? Is what I am doing pleasing to the Lord? Will this greatly hurt me by causing a loss of rewards?"2-THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST IS FOR BELIEVERS The judgment seat of Christ is for those who have passed from death unto life through Jesus Christ. Verily, verily, i say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life-jn 5:24. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death-Ro 8:1,2. For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10. WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12. THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18. Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17. Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. 2 Cor 1:14-AS ALSO YE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED US IN PART, THAT WE ARE YOUR REJOICING, EVEN AS YE ALSO ARE OURS IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. The day of the Lord Jesus is considered, by many, to be the Rapture.3-WHEN WILL THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST COME? MARVEL NOT AT THIS: FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND (they) SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE-Jn 5:28,29. It appears that this judgment shall be held at the time of the resurrection and Rapture. IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? ALL THE DAYS OF MY APPOINTED TIME WILL I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME-Job 14:14. For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-Heb 9:27.4-JESUS SHALL JUDGE It is written, AND HE COMMANDED US TO PREACH UNTO THE PEOPLE, AND TO TESTIFY THAT IT IS HE (Jesus) WHICH WAS ORDAINED OF GOD TO BE THE JUDGE OF QUICK (the living) AND DEAD-Acts 10:42. BECAUSE HE HATH APPOINTED A DAY, IN THE WHICH HE (Jesus) WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THAT MAN WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; WHEREOF HE HATH GIVEN ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN, IN THAT HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD-Acts 17:31. IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST-Ro 2:16.5-WHAT SHALL JUDGE US? The judgment shall be ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL-Ro 2:16. The Bible, God's Word, the Law of liberty, will judge us at the judgment. SO SPEAK YE, AND SO DO, AS THEY THAT SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY-Ja 2:12.6-WHY DO THE BORN-AGAIN APPEAR BEFORE THIS JUDGMENT? It is written, THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD-2 Cor 5:10.7-WHAT SHALL BE JUDGED? FOR GOD SHALL BRING EVERY WORK INTO JUDGMENT, WITH EVERY SECRET THING, WHETHER IT BE GOOD, OR WHETHER IT BE EVIL-Ecc 12:14.8-NOTHING SHALL BE HID FOR NOTHING IS SECRET, THAT SHALL NOT BE MADE MANIFEST; NEITHER ANY THING HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN AND COME ABROAD-Lk 8:17. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; NEITHER HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Lk 12:2. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; AND HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Mt 10:26. THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, WHO BOTH WILL BRING TO LIGHT THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS, AND WILL MAKE MANIFEST (or make known) THE COUNSELS OF THE HEARTS: AND THEN SHALL EVERY MAN HAVE PRAISE OF GOD-1 Cor 4:5. For NOTHING IN ALL CREATION IS HIDDEN FROM GOD'S SIGHT. EVERYTHING IS UNCOVERED AND LAID BARE BEFORE THE EYES OF HIM TO WHOM WE MUST GIVE ACCOUNT-Heb 4:13 NIV. In addition, know this, THAT EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36. Note: Nothing is secret. Nothing is hid. Everything shall be made known. All hidden things will be made known, even the thoughts of the heart. All things will be uncovered and open, and we will have to give an account. Even every idle word we speak, we will have to give an account for them.9-EVEN WHAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN IN SECRET SHALL BE PROCLAIMED OPENLY THEREFORE WHATSOEVER YE HAVE SPOKEN IN DARKNESS SHALL BE HEARD IN THE LIGHT; AND THAT WHICH YE HAVE SPOKEN IN THE EAR IN CLOSETS SHALL BE PROCLAIMED UPON THE HOUSETOPS-Lk 12:3. Consider, the most secret things you have ever spoken, which no one may know about, even these shall be proclaimed.10-REWARDS---ACCORDING TO WHAT WE DID, WE SHALL RECEIVE REWARDS OR SUFFER LOSS OF REWARDS Jesus receives the reward of the "precious fruit of the earth," the saints. It is written, BEHOLD, THE HUSBANDMAN WAITETH FOR THE PRECIOUS FRUIT OF THE EARTH, AND HATH LONG PATIENCE FOR IT, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN-Ja 5:7. According to what the saints do, they shall receive or lose rewards. It is written, I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART, I TRY THE REINS, EVEN TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WAYS, AND ACCORDING TO THE FRUIT OF HIS DOINGS-Jere 17:10. God searches the heart; then, according to our ways and the fruit of our doings, we shall receive rewards. TAKE HEED THEREFORE HOW YE HEAR: FOR WHOSOEVER HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN-Lk 8:18. Each person is given a certain number of talents. Some will be good and faithful servants and will multiply what has been given to them. At the judgment, they will be rewarded according to what they have. For EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST (or shown for what it is-NIV): FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY (or test) EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS (or will test the quality of each man's work-NIV). IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE (or survives) WHICH HE HATH BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE (but only as one escaping through the flames-NIV)-1 Cor 3:13-15. What a waste, as some shall suffer a loss of rewards for eternity. Consider, there will be people at the judgment who will find that so much of what they did was of the flesh and not of God. It was of the world and not the Spirit. They shall have the great joy of being with Jesus forever; nevertheless, the rewards they might have had for eternity were lost as much of their works did not stand the test of fire. Therefore, take heed, FOR HE THAT SOWETH TO HIS FLESH SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION; BUT HE THAT SOWETH TO THE SPIRIT SHALL OF THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING-Gal 6:8. Also, as already noted, EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36. For it is written, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, TAKE HEED WHAT YE HEAR: WITH WHAT MEASURE YE METE (or use) (what you hear), IT SHALL BE MEASURED TO YOU (and even more); AND UNTO YOU THAT HEAR SHALL MORE BE GIVEN. FOR HE THAT HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN: AND HE THAT HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE HATH-Mk 4:24,25. WHOSOEVER HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE SEEMETH TO HAVE-Lk 8:18. Again, we note there will be a gain for some, but a loss for others. Beware of what you hear: for according to the amount you use (or what you hear), you shall receive that much more again; but if you do not use what you hear, even that which you have shall be taken away from you. It might be said, to you that are given knowledge and use it, you shall be given more; but to you that are given knowledge and do not use it, what you have shall be taken away. It is written, WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED "THE LEAST" IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN-Mt 5:19. Again, we appear to have a loss of rewards for those that break a least commandment and teach others to do the same.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI know that this has been a little long, but well worth the time! I have another one three times longer than this, with much more Scripture reference,if any one is interested.God bless,Stever

Dorcas said:On reading other parts of Revelation and other prophetic books, it is clear there is numeric symbolism as well as language containing numbers. Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 (Young)And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:2 Peter chapter 3 is referring to prophecy, the prophecy of the Lord's return:"3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.xxxxxxxxxxxxxMany believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!God bless,Stever

PreachParsly: Hmmm.. somewhat... It would be valuable to me to hear what you'd been taught and how you're redefining it in the light of a clearer understanding from scripture. Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!Stever,I see what you have written, but I don't see how it addresses the meaning of my post quoting Peter.

Dorcas said in her 2nd post:Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!Stever, I see what you have written, but I don't see how it addresses the meaning of my post quoting Peter.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxDorcas first post about one day being 1,000 years:Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 (Young)And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response to dorcas:2 Peter chapter 3 is in reference to the second coming of Jesus Christ. We are now in the "last days" and have been so since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ". In 2 Peter God is saying that as far as PROPHETIC TIME is concerned in regards TO THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST, one day is the same as 1,000 years to the Lord.The Jews are looking for their 1,000 year reign to start at the end of 6,000 years. The earth was created on the first day, all of their calendars go back to that first day of creation. Today, that beginning date of creation is very close to 6000 years ago. When that time arrives, Jesus WILL COME AGAIN.2 Peter chapter 3 is referring to prophecy, the prophecy of the Lord's return:"3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.xxxxxxxxxxxxxMany believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!There is lots more to this study, including the 70 weeks of Daniel, etc. that I really don't want to get into here.God bless,Stever

ccchhhrrriiisss said:Hello...!When reflecting on such events (such as "Judgment" Day -- or Days), it might be helpful to remember that in the realm of eternity, there is no time. Thus, alot of mysteries remain in the Scriptures because of this concept. Stever's limited response:God definitely exists in eternity, and yet still passes into and outside of time. The Bible is God’s message to man, with a promise that begins in Genesis, Chapter 3 that the seed of the woman will come, the Messiah, to reconcile fallen man to himself and save man from his sin. This message becomes more clear as time passes from Genesis through the remainder of the Old Testament, and even into the New Testament--all due to God's continuing revelation in His Word. Each Book provides more insight for us. Hence, the Bible is written in language that man can understand, but only by the power of the Holy Spirit:1 Cor 2:7-167. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. BUT GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: FOR THE SPIRIT SEARCHETH ALL THINGS, YEA, THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD. 11. FOR WHAT MAN KNOWETH THE THINGS OF A MAN, SAVE THE SPIRIT OF MAN WHICH IS IN HIM? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. 12. NOW WE HAVE RECEIVED, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD. 13. WHICH THINGS ALSO WE SPEAK, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH, BUT WHICH THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL. 14. BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. 15. BUT HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL JUDGETH ALL THINGS, YET HE HIMSELF IS JUDGED OF NO MAN. 16. FOR WHO HATH KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE MAY INSTRUCT HIM? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.xxxxxxxxxxxxxThe Jews were held accountable because they should have known that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. At the time of Christ’s birth many, many families named their Children Joshua (Jesus) because it was the prophesized time of his coming! They did not recognize him because they were looking for a King to conquer the Romans and free their yoke. They were not looking for the other half of the Messiah, the suffering Messiah. Because of that their eyes were and are blinded by God because they did not recognize this the first time.John 12:3737. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. 42. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44. Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.xxxxxxxxRomans 11 tells us much the same thing:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2 Cor 3 continues:13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2 Cor 4 continues:3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.God bless,Stever

The Word is clear that there will be believers and non-believers standing together at the great judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Perhaps such an understanding of time (or eternity) might explain that both judgments are one and the same. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus is making sure no-one can say they had no idea on what basis their actions would be judged.Most of my thoughts on the last day are built logically round Old Testament prophecy and its fulfilment and, how the meaning of the operation of the gospel fixes certain factors - such as our judging ourselves worthy of death. (This is not to be confused with once saved always saved.) It is also clear from Jesus teaching, that some people will bear more fruit than others, and only those who have done nothing to multiply what they were given, will be found wanting.I love your comments about eternity. 'In the Spirit' we are in 'eternity'. We have the unique ability to be in our bodies and in eternity (or have eternity in us) simultaneously.Some years ago, I heard of Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie, in which he describes a particularly long near death experience in which he was with Christ, who showed him things - how things workk - and one of them was this that you have mentioned, the disappearance of 'time' from the consciousness. The author was simultaneously aware of all his failures - his whole life - and that Christ loved him anyway. All that (his twenty years) happened in a split second or two.I once heard an excellent sermon on Lazarus and the rich man. The preacher wanted us to know that when we die, we will wake up. Like CS Lewis, he told us the other side of the grave would be more real that this side. It made a big impression on me. As with so many things in life on earth, we experience perceptual disorientation unless we are open to the Spirit's work of connecting our understanding in the way God wants.According to Jesus, Lazarus was being rewarded by leaning on Abraham's bosom; again, it is a closer relationship we 'win' not a material prize. May we consider whether this is an aspect of 'hell' not to be despised. If you're the person with his one talent wrapped in a napkin. After it has been taken from you and given to the person with the most, the bad thing that happens to you, is your relationship with Christ is severely diminished, if not, very nearly over for good.

ccchhhrrriiisss said:This could help explain the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25). The Word is clear that there will be believers and non-believers standing together at the great judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Perhaps such an understanding of time (or eternity) might explain that both judgments are one and the same.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:It has always been my understanding that the separation of the Sheep and Goats takes place at the end of the Tribulation and that the sheep are mostly (but not all) Jews that came through the Tribulation alive and all became believers in Jesus Christ- many of them supernaturally protected by Jesus Christ. The Goats are the ones that are taken, and killed, and will await judgment at the end of the Millennium, at the Great White Throne. The Sheep on the other hand enter the Millennial Kingdom in their bodies of flesh and blood with Christ and will have children (millions upon millions upon millions [billions] of them) during the thousand year reign. At the end of the thousand year reign Christ releases Satan out of the bottomless pit one more time to deceive the Nations. Sadly, billions of people are deceived by Satan. Who are these billions? The children of the saved "sheep" that entered the millenium with Christ!Also, it has always been my understanding as well that the saints, in their resurrected bodies will be present at the great white throne judgment to judge the fallen angels. No one that is saved will have to go through the Great White Throne to be judged. This judgment is only for the lost, because they are counting on their own works to save them [ in comparison to the Christian who looks to Christ and the works that only He performed on Calvary and the Resurrection]. At this judgment their works are compared against the standard--God's Law. Everyone that attends this judgment is found to be lacking and will receive the fair judgment for their sin- separation from God forever, in hell.God bless,Stever

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:"Has anyone considered that perhaps such timelessness in eternity can help explain something like the judgment? When a person dies, perhaps they "awaken" in eternity -- where all of human history has been finished and passed away. A person may die, and then open their eyes to discover that eternity has passed by -- and they are again with even those who died after them, getting ready to be judged. To them, it seemed only a second. But in the reality of eternity, earthly time has passed away."xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: Paul cleared up the matter when he told us that for the Christian: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". As far as non-believers, they will enter hell, the holding tank that Christ told us about in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Lazarus went to Abrahams bosom where all of the Old Testament believers in the Messiah resided. The rich man went to hell, where all of the non-believers are, awaiting the Great White Throne. God's word tells us that when Christ returned to heaven, he took "captivity captive" with Him back to heaven. In other words, all of the Old Testament believers housed in Abraham Bosom were released and went with Christ to heaven:Ephesians 4:8-10 tells us: " 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"Also, Revelation tells us that the Souls (not the resurrected bodies) of the beheaded Saints stand before (under)the altar, worshipping God and Jesus Christ:" 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I SAW UNDER THE ALTAR THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE SLAIN FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND FOR THE TESTIMONY WHICH THEY HELD: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"God bless,Stever

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:But have you considered that this verse seemingly contradicts other verses concerning the Lord's return, like "the dead in Christ will rise first?" Perhaps those who are dead are not yet absent from the body. Perhaps, they are asleep (Mark 5:39 - Daniel 12:2 ...)Stever's response:No, not really. You are referring to two separate events. The Second Coming of Christ is one event, foretold in the Old Testament, as well as the the New, where Christ likens that event to a "Thief, coming to kill and destroy"- your references above -- Mark 5:39 - Daniel 12:2.... refer to the Second Coming (not the rapture). The Rapture is A DIFFERENT EVENT that is NEW REVELATION KNOWLEDGE FROM JESUS CHRIST THAT PAUL REVEALS TO US IN CORINTHIANS AND THESSALONIANS. At this event Christ comes to get His saints- the dead in Christ rise first from their graves and the living meet HIM in the air, FOREVER TO BE WITH THE LORD IN THEIR NEW RESURRECTED BODIES.When the Lord comes, at the Second coming, He comes with his saints in their resurrected bodies (NOT TO GET HIS SAINTS), and He comes to KILL AND DESTROY:Zechariah 14 refers to this event (the second coming): 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.5.\tAnd ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: AND THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.Specific Bible verses that refer to the RAPTURE, and NOT the Second Coming:1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; 1 Thes 4:15-18; John 14:2-3; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 John 3:2; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12In regards to the SECOND COMING 1 Thes 5:2 tells us that the Second Coming (Not the Rapture) will coincide with the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"-1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.It is very confusing, but if we look at the verses closely we see the difference. Just one example is 1 John 3:1-2 where it tells us that at this event (the Rapture) we will become like CHRIST:"1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.2.\tBeloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."I can continue with this comparison of these TWO SEPARATE EVENTS if there is any interest. In all of the references to the Rapture Christ never comes to KILL AND DESTROY. That event-THE SECOND COMING, OCCURS at the end of the Tribulation when Christ comes to take those that are still living into the 1,000 year Millenial Reign of the Messiah on this earth.At the Second coming He comes to separate the sheep from the Goats. At the Rapture He comes to get His Saints, who will forever be with Him. These same ratpured saints will accompany Him at the Second Coming to rule and reign with Him during the Millennium.God bless,SteverP.S. At the Rapture, why would Christ need to separate the Sheep from the Goats??? They would already have been separated by the Rapture itself. We have two separate events occurring for two separate purposes. In one event Christ comes to get his saints and give them their new resurrected bodies. In another event Christ comes with his resurrected saints to save those that beleive in Him from the extermination of antichrist, and to lead them into the millennium.

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believer. YET NEARLY EVERY VERSE CONCERNING JUDGMENT SEEMS TO POINT THAT THERE WILL BE BOTH SHEEP AND GOATS PRESENT AT THE JUDGMENT. Stever's response:Please quote scripture for your statement that I have capitalized above- you are in error.Ccchhhrrriiisss said:Again, there are many who believe that there are two seperate judgments -- one for the believer and one for the non-believerStever's response:There are indeed two separate judgments. One, that only Christian believers attend is referred to as the "Judgment Seat of Christ", the Bema Judgment. There are references to this judgement in the New Testament, all introduced by Paul because it is New Revelation knowledge that He received from Jesus Christ personally. Everyone that goes through this judgment is still SAVED at the end of the judgment. The Judgment seat of Christ is a judgment for rewards.For we (Paul is referring to Christian believers) must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10.WE [CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS] SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12.THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18.Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17.Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.I posted this earlier, but you must have missed it:Stever writes:I have a very good Bible study on the Bema judgment seat of rewards, the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ:THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF JESUS CHRIST1. What is the Judgment seat (Bema) of Jesus Christ? The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves.If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged?At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat.So many Christians today think that doing this or that worldly thing is more important than spending the time in God's Word and serving Jesus, witnessing to the lost, feeding the poor, and loving others as ourselves. At this judgment, we should indeed see how unimportant so many things we did really were. All of the extra time that was spent listening to a radio or television, or reading meaningless books, may cause us to lose rewards for eternity. All of the extra time that we wasted and spent doing so many meaningless things, such as running after money, pleasures, cares of this life (those things that were not of Jesus), these may now affect our rewards for eternity. This judgment is a judgment of receiving rewards and suffering loss of rewards. A Christian's true desire should be to hear the words, WELL DONE, THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT-Mt 25:21. Paul's attitude should be the Christian's attitude. As it is written, YEA DOUBTLESS, AND I COUNT ALL THINGS BUT LOSS FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: FOR WHOM I HAVE SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS, AND DO COUNT THEM BUT DUNG, THAT I MAY WIN CHRIST-Phili 3:8. Indeed, how important some worldly things or pleasures seem to the Christian now, yet how worthless they will be at this judgment. As a Christian, we need to believe the Gospel and live to please Jesus and not ourselves. We need to ask ourselves in the many things that we do, "What fruit for Jesus is in it? Is what I am doing pleasing to the Lord? Will this greatly hurt me by causing a loss of rewards?"2-THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST IS FOR BELIEVERS The judgment seat of Christ is for those who have passed from death unto life through Jesus Christ.Verily, verily, i say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life-jn 5:24. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death-Ro 8:1,2.For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10.WE [CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS] SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12.THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18.Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17.Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.2 Cor 1:14-AS ALSO YE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED US IN PART, THAT WE ARE YOUR REJOICING, EVEN AS YE ALSO ARE OURS IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. The day of the Lord Jesus is considered, by many, to be the Rapture.3-WHEN WILL THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST COME? MARVEL NOT AT THIS: FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND (they) SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE-Jn 5:28,29. It appears that this judgment shall be held at the time of the resurrection and Rapture.IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? ALL THE DAYS OF MY APPOINTED TIME WILL I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME-Job 14:14. For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-Heb 9:27.4-JESUS SHALL JUDGE It is written, AND HE COMMANDED US TO PREACH UNTO THE PEOPLE, AND TO TESTIFY THAT IT IS HE (Jesus) WHICH WAS ORDAINED OF GOD TO BE THE JUDGE OF QUICK (the living) AND DEAD-Acts 10:42. BECAUSE HE HATH APPOINTED A DAY, IN THE WHICH HE (Jesus) WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THAT MAN WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; WHEREOF HE HATH GIVEN ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN, IN THAT HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD-Acts 17:31.IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST-Ro 2:16.5-WHAT SHALL JUDGE US? The judgment shall be ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL-Ro 2:16. The Bible, God's Word, the Law of liberty, will judge us at the judgment.SO SPEAK YE, AND SO DO, AS THEY THAT SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY-Ja 2:12.6-WHY DO THE BORN-AGAIN APPEAR BEFORE THIS JUDGMENT?It is written, THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD-2 Cor 5:10.7-WHAT SHALL BE JUDGED?FOR GOD SHALL BRING EVERY WORK INTO JUDGMENT, WITH EVERY SECRET THING, WHETHER IT BE GOOD, OR WHETHER IT BE EVIL-Ecc 12:14.8-NOTHING SHALL BE HID FOR NOTHING IS SECRET, THAT SHALL NOT BE MADE MANIFEST; NEITHER ANY THING HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN AND COME ABROAD-Lk 8:17. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; NEITHER HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Lk 12:2. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; AND HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Mt 10:26.THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, WHO BOTH WILL BRING TO LIGHT THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS, AND WILL MAKE MANIFEST (or make known) THE COUNSELS OF THE HEARTS: AND THEN SHALL EVERY MAN HAVE PRAISE OF GOD-1 Cor 4:5. For NOTHING IN ALL CREATION IS HIDDEN FROM GOD'S SIGHT. EVERYTHING IS UNCOVERED AND LAID BARE BEFORE THE EYES OF HIM TO WHOM WE MUST GIVE ACCOUNT-Heb 4:13 NIV.In addition, know this, THAT EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36.Note: Nothing is secret. Nothing is hid. Everything shall be made known. All hidden things will be made known, even the thoughts of the heart. All things will be uncovered and open, and we will have to give an account. Even every idle word we speak, we will have to give an account for them.9-EVEN WHAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN IN SECRET SHALL BE PROCLAIMED OPENLYTHEREFORE WHATSOEVER YE HAVE SPOKEN IN DARKNESS SHALL BE HEARD IN THE LIGHT; AND THAT WHICH YE HAVE SPOKEN IN THE EAR IN CLOSETS SHALL BE PROCLAIMED UPON THE HOUSETOPS-Lk 12:3. Consider, the most secret things you have ever spoken, which no one may know about, even these shall be proclaimed.10-REWARDS---ACCORDING TO WHAT WE DID, WE SHALL RECEIVE REWARDS OR SUFFER LOSS OF REWARDSJesus receives the reward of the "precious fruit of the earth," the saints. It is written, BEHOLD, THE HUSBANDMAN WAITETH FOR THE PRECIOUS FRUIT OF THE EARTH, AND HATH LONG PATIENCE FOR IT, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN-Ja 5:7.According to what the saints do, they shall receive or lose rewards. It is written, I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART, I TRY THE REINS, EVEN TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WAYS, AND ACCORDING TO THE FRUIT OF HIS DOINGS-Jere 17:10. God searches the heart; then, according to our ways and the fruit of our doings, we shall receive rewards.TAKE HEED THEREFORE HOW YE HEAR: FOR WHOSOEVER HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN-Lk 8:18. Each person is given a certain number of talents. Some will be good and faithful servants and will multiply what has been given to them. At the judgment, they will be rewarded according to what they have.For EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST (or shown for what it is-NIV): FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY (or test) EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS (or will test the quality of each man's work-NIV). IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE (or survives) WHICH HE HATH BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE (but only as one escaping through the flames-NIV)-1 Cor 3:13-15. What a waste, as some shall suffer a loss of rewards for eternity. Consider, there will be people at the judgment who will find that so much of what they did was of the flesh and not of God. It was of the world and not the Spirit. They shall have the great joy of being with Jesus forever; nevertheless, the rewards they might have had for eternity were lost as much of their works did not stand the test of fire.Therefore, take heed, FOR HE THAT SOWETH TO HIS FLESH SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION; BUT HE THAT SOWETH TO THE SPIRIT SHALL OF THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING-Gal 6:8. Also, as already noted, EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36.For it is written, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, TAKE HEED WHAT YE HEAR: WITH WHAT MEASURE YE METE (or use) (what you hear), IT SHALL BE MEASURED TO YOU (and even more); AND UNTO YOU THAT HEAR SHALL MORE BE GIVEN. FOR HE THAT HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN: AND HE THAT HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE HATH-Mk 4:24,25. WHOSOEVER HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE SEEMETH TO HAVE-Lk 8:18. Again, we note there will be a gain for some, but a loss for others. Beware of what you hear: for according to the amount you use (or what you hear), you shall receive that much more again; but if you do not use what you hear, even that which you have shall be taken away from you. It might be said, to you that are given knowledge and use it, you shall be given more; but to you that are given knowledge and do not use it, what you have shall be taken away.It is written, WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED "THE LEAST" IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN-Mt 5:19. Again, we appear to have a loss of rewards for those that break a least commandment and teach others to do the same.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxGod bless,Stever

ccchhhrrriiisss,Thank you for your thoughts here. As it probably obvious from what I post, I feel that many of the ideas coming forth on the separation of the 'rapture' from the second coming, are partly because of not understanding the 'English' as it was spoken in the 17th century. I use the KJV mostly, and then look at the other translations to see whether I'm 'getting' it, and frequently look back at the Hebrew or Greek for clarification. Sometimes I'm none the wiser, but, it helps to open up the possible differences to my understanding.Even when I read all the scripture which is brought forth about the rapture, I can't understand why this should be a different event from the Second Coming, mainly because things happen so 'quickly' in the Spirit. Christ is quite able to raise up all believers at once. It doesn't need 'time' for us to receive our resurrection bodies and our robes of white.Christ coming with His saints, is what those who are not Christ's will see. What will we see? Have we any way of knowing? This is the 'trouble' with visions. They are a way of communicating across the divide between time and eternity. I believe these things will 'be', but what it will feel like to be part of it, or whether we will feel as if we are doing what the prophecies indicate pictorially, is difficult to decide. After all, when Christ said He would separate the sheep from the goats, He didn't mean that people would suddenly look like sheep and goats. It was a figurative way of explaining the meaning of that 'judgment'.letsgetbusy,When you pray (when any of us pray) in the Spirit, we are more conscious of eternity then when we are doing something else. But by receiving the Holy Spirit, you are receiving the I AM - the always now God - into your being. He who is eternal, is in you. What will happen when we die, or the Lord comes, is we will cease to be bound by time, but much of what we do now - communing with Him - will continue just as it always has, since we received Him. This is another reason I believe the interpretations of scripture which set everything out as if it will look like 'down here' (for want of a better phrase), which have things happening one after another in a linear progression, are misleading. Eternity is all one. It is all NOW. Everything will happen at once and time will be all over. Instantly. If there is time after that, it will be 'new' time. Things which have been prophesied to happen 'in' time, will happen before time ends.Stever,When it says the ungodly will not stand in the judgment, it doesn't mean they won't be there, it means because they are ungodly, they will be condemned. Believers who 'stand' in judgment are not standing on their feet, they are 'standing' (uncondemned) in the righteousness of Christ.On rewards, I have a question for you.... Suppose I'm right in my interpretation of 1 Cor 3, and the only reward is Christ Himself - the Bridegroom for His Bride - will you be disappointed? Would it change how you live now? Would you spend more time with Him and less time doing things? (Don't worry, I ask myself the same question!) Would you alter anything at all, if you thought that you were not in line for gold, silver or precious stones? Honestly?

Stever,Please explain to me how we have been in the last days since Christ? Last days is meaningless unless it refers to 24hour days. Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!Where do they get this from in scripture, please?Also, is there a solitary reference to 'bema' in the Greek in the New Testament? Because if there isn't, you could be envisioning yourself into a completely manmade concept, rather than God's.

dorcas wrote:Stever,Please explain to me how we have been in the last days since Christ? Last days is meaningless unless it refers to 24hour days. Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 PROPHETIC DAYS, or two thousand years. The time is short!Where do they get this from in scripture, please?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:Acts 2: 17 that took place at Pentecost tells us that we are now in the "last days"- a specific period of time that is prophesized throughout the Old Testament and referred to as fact in the New Testament. The signs referred to only happened after Pentecost:17. And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxHebrews 1 confirms to us that we are now in the LAST DAYS1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;XXXXXXXXXXX2 Peter tells us about the last days and how they will end (the last days) with the "Day of the Lord". We are presently in the "last days" and have been in them for over 2,000 years:3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX2 Timothy 3 tells us more about this time, these LAST DAYS that is a description of today:1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.Some Old Testament Prophetic references to the LAST DAYS that we are presently in, since the death and resurrection of Christ:Jacob 49:11.\tAnd Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.What is Jacob referring to?Genesis 49:10-1110. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxIsaiah 2 tells us more of the last days:2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxMicah 4: 1-2. But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.2.\tAnd many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.God bless,Stever

Cchhrriiss said:Perhaps you didn't look up the Scripture references contained at the end of my last post. They refer to a judgment where ALL -- both believers and unbelievers -- are present. Many of the verses in your response also seem to indicate a single judgment (if you continue reading the entire chapter). For instance, you quoted I Corinthians 5:10. It determines that ALL will stand before the "Judgment Seat of Christ" (according to the "Two Judgment" theory, this is usually the judgment specified for Christians). It goes on to say, "...that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:You must ask yourself who was Paul talking to? Who was this letter addressed to? The Church at Corinth full of Christian believers. Further, lets look at every reference to this special judgment, not just the one you quoted. If you want to change Church doctrine, that goes all the back to the Apostles, then you need more than just one reference to try and do it. Also, I notice in your statement that you say specifically:"I used to be convinced that there are two seperate judgment days. But I arrived at that conclusion because of what I was taught and presented at church, rather than having critically studyed the subject on my own. After quite a bit of study, I decided that I am now quite unsure. I have heard believers criticize such an approach to doctrine as being dangerously "simple minded." However, I feel that way about those who jump on a doctrinal bandwagon without truly considering any alternatives."What is missing from your statement above in regards to your conclusion above? It is the Holy Spirit!. The Holy Spirit is the one who leads the Christian believer into all truth. Any reference to the Holy Spirit above is painfully missing, and we are left with reference to your own study, that is full of the flesh. The Holy Spirit is missing from your personal Bible Study, and all we have left is you own opinion. I Corinthians 5:10. states: " 10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."So, I guess you have misquoted me. Let's do our own Bible study, and lets invite the Holy Spirit in to "quicken" (make alive) God's Word to us:1 Cor 3: tells us that all of the people that go through this judgment will be saved at the end of it. This tells me that it is not even close to the Great White Throne where people are judged and sent to hell:6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.You referenced 2 Cor 5:6-11. Who is this addressed to??? It is specifically addressed to the Church at Corinth, not to the outside world. It is addressed to believers in Jesus Christ:6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10. FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD. 11. KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN; BUT WE ARE MADE MANIFEST UNTO GOD; AND I TRUST ALSO ARE MADE MANIFEST IN YOUR CONSCIENCES.I don't want to beat this to death. If you want to change Church doctrine you will need more than your own flesh to do it.God bless,Stever

Stever, Thank you for those scriptures. The use of the plural for days implies a period of time, as you've been saying. However, when the writer to the Hebrews used it, he simply meant these most recent days - the ones at the end of time so far. He wasn't meaning it prophetically in the way the others do with regard to the rising of false teachers and so on. This becomes clear when you take the rest of Hebrews into consideration.A few more thoughts to add to our discussion.John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. I have posted these verses, because John is the only one who uses the singular of 'day'.I have included 7:37, because it links the last day of the feast, prophetically with the last day of the days which have preceded - the day of salvation / the day in which the Holy Spirit was made available, echoed at the end of Revelation 22 - God's last appeal to the world.Being as John was distantly related to Jesus through the priestly connection, this explains why he hung around at the crucifixion and was ready (possibly expecting) Jesus to ask him to look after Mary (who was a lot younger than her cousin Elisabeth). John also rested on Jesus bosom at the last supper and is the only one of the disciples to have heard what God said when the dove descended on Him at His baptism. Is this because John was (like Caiaphas) destined to have a visionary and prophetic gift after Pentecost? Well, John was not the only one to prophesy, but, of the disciples, it is his record which remains because the Lord told him to write it down for us.When John chooses 'last day', I believe it is significant and means something different from 'last days'.

Ccchhhrrriiisss said:There are other such verses pertaining to a single judgment -- where God divides the saved from the unsaved. I will leave those verses at the bottom of this post. Quote: Here are the verses you quoted at the bottom of the post: Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the GoatsI Corinthians 15 - concerning the Resurrection of the Dead -- and how it will happenRevelation 20:11-15 - ALL will stand before the Great White Throne, and those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire2 Peter 2:20-21 - Calvinists' ouch.Hebrews 9:27 - Judgment AFTER death.Romans 14:9-12 - ALL will stand on judgment to give an account to God.Romans 2:1-11 - Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.Acts 17:31 - Again, a DAY of judgment.I Thessalonians 1:5-12 - Judgment Day for BOTH sinners and saints after return of the Lord.Matthew 16:27-28 - Judgment AFTER the Lord returns.2 Timothy 4:1-8 - God will judge the "quick and the dead" on that day.Matthew 13:24-30 - Parable of the Wheat and the TaresI Thessalonians 4:13-18 - Those who are "asleep" will be caught up in the air.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStevers response:Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the GoatsThis is a description oF what occurs after the Tribulation when Christ separates the sheep from the goats, the sheep on the left and the goats on the right. The sheep on his left are alive and well and are believers in the Messiah and are rewarded by going into the 1,000 year millennial reign with Jesus Christ, in their flesh and blood. It would seem by this verse that the goats are judged at this point in time, but other Bible verses tells us that at this point Christ comes as a thief, to kill and destroy. They are killed at this time and the judment occurs later, after the 1,000 year reign of Christ at the Great White Throne.—I went into this earlier in one of my posts on this thread. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxRevelation 20:11-15 - ALL will stand before the Great White Throne, and those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.Again, you have misquoted the Bible. It does not say ALL will stand before the Lord at this time. It specifically says: 12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2 Peter 2:20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.Obviously this person, referred to above was not saved in the first place. How do we know that? We are saved through belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Knowledge has nothing to do with being saved. Even Satan knows (has knowledge) that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. Does Satan believe in his heart AND WORSHIP JESUS AS LORD? No! What does God's word tell us about this?Romans 10:9 tells us: " 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."Belief and confession are necessary. Even the fallen Angels know and understand that Jesus Christ is the LORD, but they do not/will not worship Him as such.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxHebrews 9:27 - Judgment AFTER death.27.\tAnd as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Exactly when does this judgement take place? It doesn't say IMMEDIATELY AFTER. It just says that it is the next event after death. We have to study the entire Bible to get clarification when we see a one liner like the above. The Bible explains itself. If we look in 1st & 2nd Corinthians we find that for the Christian, this judgment takes place at a specific time and place and this judgment for Christians is called THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, AND IS A JUDGMENT OF REWARDS.This makes sense to me because I understand that Christ took my sin upon Himself when He died upon the tree. He not only took my sin, but the sin of the entire world. The only condition is that we have to believe that He died for our sins and resurrected from the dead and that He is our LORD. Once we believe that with all of our heart, and confess it with our mouths, then we are saved and will not have to suffer judgment for our works, like all of those attending the Great White Throne Judgment, that we will discuss later.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxRomans 14:9-12 - ALL will stand on judgment to give an account to God.Lets quote the whole thing so that we can make sense of it:10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Bingo!!! The judgment referred to here is the judgment seat of Christ, the same exact judgment referred to in 1 & 2 Corinthians. This judgment is for Christians only, and we already know that everyone who goes through this judgment is saved at the end of the judgment. WOW- this means that it is not referring to the Great White Throne!!!!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxRomans 2:1-11 - Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.Lets see what Romans 2:1-11 has to say:1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5. BUT AFTER THY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; 6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God. Again, this does not refer specifically to ONE JUDGMENT. It refers to JUDGMENT. Then it explains that the GODLY will be rewarded with GLORY AND HONOUR AND IMMORTALITY, ETERNAL LIFE. But the UNGODLY will suffer TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH. It says nothing about the fact that they will both be judged at the same time, on the same day as you refer to above. You specifically said:Some at this DAY (vs. 5) of judgment will be punished, while others will be exalted.However, verse 5 says nothing about the day. What it says is: "5. BUT AFTER THY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD;" that refers to the LOST, not the saved!ANOTHER MISQUOTE?? HOW COME?I like the Living Bible that offers some clarification here about Judgment for all. Notice, this is not ONE JUDGMENT GIVEN AT ONE TIME, but gives us a picture of the JUDGMENT of all people, both believers and non believers.8. But he will terribly punish those who fight against the truth of God and walk in evil ways--God's anger will be poured out upon them. 9. There will be sorrow and suffering for Jews and Gentiles alike who keep on sinning. 10. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who obey him, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 11. For God treats everyone the same. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxActs 17:31 - Again, a DAY of judgmentThis refers to the Great White Throne Judgment:31.\tBecause he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.How do we know that it is the Great White Throne? Because he judges the world in righteousness. Everyone at this judgment is being judged because he/she thinks that they themselves are righteous because of their own works that they have performed. They have no interest in Christ and His work on the Cross. Their total focus has always been on themselves and their own works. Finally, Righteousness personified will judge them all! XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI Thessalonians 1:5-12 - Judgment Day for BOTH sinners and saints after return of the Lord.Again, you are WRONG. This is what 1 Thessalonians 5:10 actually says (because it does not continue to verse 12):5.\tFor our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7. So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.What it concludes with is that all those who believe in Jesus Christ will be delivered from the WRATH TO COME (the Tribulation)!XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMatthew 16:27-28 - Judgment AFTER the Lord returns27.\tFor the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Again, WRONG. What this is referring to is that if we take up the cross and follow Jesus, we'll be rewarded in the ages to come as well as presently.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2 Timothy 4:1-8 - God will judge the "quick and the dead" on that day.1. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;This is referred to above, at the separation of the sheep and the goats, at the second coming---- Matthew 25:31-46 - The Sheep and the GoatsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMatthew 13:24-30 - Parable of the Wheat and the TaresThis again is a reference to the separation of the sheep and the goats, at the end of the Tribulation, also found in Matthew 25:31-46I Thessalonians 4:13-18 - Those who are "asleep" will be caught up in the air.This is nothing more than a reference to the rapture where Christ comes to get his elect- this Book of the Bible is addressed to the Christian believers at Corinth. The dead (asleep) first, and the living second, as we come together to meet HIM in the air.13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.God bless,Stever

Dear ccchhrrriisss:We are commanded to study God's word, and to rightly divide the Word of Truth.2nd Timothy tells us:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxChris----After your last post I can see that you are, or were at one time, a 7th Day Adventist. It would be helpful if you would reveal that type of information so that others, when they respond to your posts will have a better understanding of you and be better equipped to respond in love & compassion, and at the same time share with you the defense of Christian Doctrine that has been handed down since the Apostles.I have noticed over the past several years that the television and radio shows sponsered by the Adventists are now in stealth mode. They never reveal that they are Seventh Day Adventists, but yet offer free literature, etc. for anyone writing in to an address that says nothing about 7th day and nothing about Adventism.God bless,Stever

Stever .... Chris a SDA ??? Where are you getting that from ? I sure haven't seen it in any of his posts. :-o I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, because the posts are too long for me to read or reply to such long ones ... but we're told that the Day of Judgment is "AT His Coming" and then Rev.20 there's another, called the 2nd death.Anyhow, Peace to you all.Annie

Hi Grannie:Like you said,this has been quite a long thread. It has recently focused on the Judgment seat of Christ for believers and the Great White Throne for non-believers.Chris has posted that over many years he listened to various Christian Pastors and teachers and believed their teaching in the two judgments. However, after much personal study he now only believes in one judgment-the Great White Throne.These are Chris's beliefs:1. All of humanity lives here on earth, confined with the created concept of time.2. When a person dies, they are "asleep" until the Lord's return.3. The dead now "awaken" at the Lord's return (the trumpet call of God) and are transformed. The earth, sea and grave give up their dead. Our "rest" after death may seem like it was only an instant for all who have died -- but may have taken a much longer period of time as all of human history has now been fulfilled. Time is no more.4. Everyone -- christian, non-christian, those who lived before you, and those who lived after you -- stand before a great, white throne. 5. Christ is seated on this throne to judge all nations. 6. The "books" of human history are opened, and the dead are judged by what is recorded in those books (good and bad). 7. Another book is opened. This is the Book of Life. It will be explained that those whose names are not found in this book will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Likewise, those whose names are found there will enter into eternal life. 8. There will be feedback from people here. Some will be shocked that their names were not written in the Book of Life. Some will make excuses for their behavior ("Lord, when did we see thee...?"). Others will make claims of their own righteousness ("Lord, did I not prophesy in your name...?"). And others will wonder when they did good works for the Lord ("Lord, when did we visit you in prison...?").9. The Lord will answer at least some of those ("I tell you the truth..."). Then, those whose names are not found in this book are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those whose names are found there enter into eternal life. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMy Grandmother, as well as my Great Aunt were 7th Day Adventists and both loved the Lord, and both of them await me in Heaven. However, doctrinally Seventh Day Adventists have problems. Are they still within the body of Christ and not a Christian cult? I think so. Dr. Walter Martin thought so as well. However, with that being said, if they write or say anything that goes against sound doctrine I am required to give an answer. That is what has transpired here between Chris and myself. Now, since this "conversation" seems to have ended between us (Ccchhhrrriiiss & Stever) it might be worth your time to read our posts to see where each of us stand on these very important issues.God bless,Stever

Dear Stever,I am all ready to make this my last post, because I am now well acquainted with your interpretation of scripture, which I find lacking on the grounds of English and contextual interpretation, often. I'm not talking about comparing the KJV with other versions, I mean, the preconceptions you bring to the basic language itself. (In passing though, I would NEVER use the Living Bible for elucidation of real meaning. The TEV is much truer.)I am concerned you have suggested ccchhhrrriiisss is misquoting scripture, when you are not open to either 'hearing' or 'seeing' that the same words may mean something other than you think they do. I'm not sure whether you have eaten someone else's interpretation trustingly (but gullibly) or, you have really gone with an open mind to the Lord and asked Him to confirm or reject what you've picked up from your long time in Christian circles. As ccchhhrrriiisss said in another post (not in this thread) it was Bro Ravenhill who told him to test everything. This is how he has uncovered a number of errors within churches and gatherings he has attended; he feels empowered to come to his own conclusions in the light of the witness of the Holy Spirit within himself. (This is scriptural - 1 John 2: 20 + 27.) No-one can do this analysis all at once, but experience builds up and one learns more and more that the Lord is leading one's understanding.I am not going to pick up on everything in your last post but a few sentences stand out.IRevelation 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Within the context of the above verse, just looking at the English, if the saved are not there, why does it not say'and they were all cast into the lake of fire'Surely, if only those who were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire, this STRONGLY suggests that those who WERE found in the book of life, were NOT cast into the lake of fire?II2 Peter 220 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.Your discussion of the word 'knowledge' is not consistent with its meaning in this verse (or anywhere else in the KJV, I venture. 'TAKING KNOWLEDGE' is what you are talking about. 'KNOWING' is what God said He did with the sufferings of the Hebrews in Egypt - the same meaning as in 'Adam knew Eve' - it means 'intimately acquainted with'. Obviously this person, referred to above was not saved in the first place. How do we know that?Here, if you are suggesting the person to whom the writer refers is not saved, and you KNOW they are not saved, then you are claiming this knowledge across the centuries, as much in a head knowledge way, as you claim the writer must be meaning. Yet, I would refute yours as the true MEANING of the writer's sentence, because 'they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ'. In other words, this knowledge is in keeping with the knowledge of the Lord that you and I claim to have - saving knowledge.Your allusion to the devil, is specifically incorrect. It saysJames 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Does Satan believe in his heart [AND WORSHIP JESUS AS LORD]? No! What does God's word tell us about this?The distinction here about worship, has something to do with power. These like us, worship the one which has power over their freedom. That's what it means to be a subject (in a kingdom).It says nothing about the fact that they will both be judged at the same time, on the same day as you refer to above. EDIT: But it doesn't say anywhere, that they won't be. There is no scriptural reason to separate these events. Over many centuries, the 'bema' seat (unscriptural) has not been mentioned. Maybe it has been used as an illustration in a sermon by someone now famous, but that's all it is. And there is no hint in scripture at all, of what the reward will be, except that it is something to do with our relationship with Christ, rather than a thing. EDIT end.There is something I think you don't get about the Judgment. When a person goes to court, only they know whether they are guilty or not. Facts are produced, by which the Judge decides, sets free, or convicts.We have, under the gospel, the opportunity to judge ourselves worthy of death (1 Cor 11:27 - 32) and believe into Christ to be saved from our sins. BUT, only He knows how honestly we have come to Him. In this sense, the boot is on the other foot. We do not come to the Judment not knowing where we stand with Christ, for we shall either fall asleep in Him, (or, be caught up into the air with Him), or find that we are not in Him when we have been separated from our physical bodies or, have been left behind.The POINT of discussing judgment before we die, is that we may prepare ourselves, by taking every opportunity to be found in Him, ready, watching and praying, doing good and so on. The verses which alert us to the way humans judge, are the ones which look on the gifts (prophecy, healing) and on works instead of faith. Of these, we must be ware. When the end comes, some people will be really new Christians. Others, ancient! We will all be judged by the same standard in Christ. And the area of greatest interest to Christians, is that we are clearly told, the wheat and the tares are going to grow together, unitl THE END. We KNOW that in churches there are folks who are unsaved. What do we do about them? More to the point, how can we tell? (The word 'fruit' comes to mind.) But, can a person with a carnal mind, accurately judge fruit? Possibly not, the scripture warns us. You saidEveryone at this judgment is being judged because he/she thinks that they themselves are righteous because of their own works that they have performed. They have no interest in Christ and His work on the Cross. Their total focus has always been on themselves and their own works.The verse says 'according to their works'. There is no way of knowing from the verse, whether their works were good or bad. That's the point of having a judgment on them. I'm sure some people make a conscious choice to go to hell, and concentrate on doing evil.

by GrannieAnnie on 2005/8/14 11:18:24Stever .... Chris a SDA ??? Where are you getting that from ? I sure haven't seen it in any of his posts. I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, because the posts are too long for me to read or reply to such long ones ... but we're told that the Day of Judgment is "AT His Coming" and then Rev.20 there's another, called the 2nd death.Anyhow, Peace to you all.AnnieHi Stever, I didn't mean to appear as a "But-in-ski" with my post above (I'm not crazy about butinski's neither ... but as long as they can be polite, I like open dialog) ... but merely wanted to question why you would call Chris a SDA, and also to just give what I believe on this thread 'topic'.I did read all sides, and only disagree on some issues on both your points, but forgive me, if I didn't see that those points were of an eternally damaging nature, worth my striving over. And get gun shy when accusations start flying. I like to agree where we all can agree, unless it's a major Body Damaging Belief.But I just wanted to express my view of the two judgments that I see ... as in "throw my 2 cents" in with the rest, as they say.I see these 2 judgments contained or summed up in Rev.20.Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Jesus said, several times, in both the Old and New Testaments, "I Come, and my Reward is "with" Me". Isaiah 40:10, 62:11, Rev.11:18, 22:12At His Coming, that is when the tares and wheat are seperated Matt. 13:29-43. And also in that same Chpt. (47-49) The net, where the good fish are kept and the bad thrown over board. Also, that this harvest of both the wheat & fish analogies happen at "the end of the world". At His Coming.The majority of Commentators through-out Church history have cross referenced Matt.13 with Rev. 14:14-19. With good reason.Then in Mat.16:27-28 - it says, that when He comes, "then" he shall reward every man according to his works.That our works are "tried by fire",1 Corth 3:12-15 and 'that' is the Brightness of His appearing ... because, how could we receive our Glorified bodies, if at least we were found in the Lamb's Book of Life ?I don't want to load this up with Verses, but the Coming of the Lord, is a day of BOTH Reward and Judgment, "by fire". The wicked are burnt up or thrown into the pit alive, and the saved receive their glorified body, as He descends in fire to fight and destroy the wicked; according to both the Old & New Testament, regarding "The Day of The Lord" ... "His Coming".When we receive our glorified bodies, and later, at the "Rewards Ceremony" before His Throne, all nations Mt 25:31-34, will appear before Him, to receive their just desserts.The 'second' judgment, is of those who live and were born during the Millenial reign of Christ and others that died unsaved, 'before' His Return... That were not alive AT His Coming.Rev. 20:7-15.So I only see two judgments, One at His return, when we are rewarded with "the finish of our Salvation", by being given our glorified bodies and the unsaved who are alive & took the "mark or worshiped the beast or his image, are killed and thrown into the pit and the second judgment(and/or reward), is the "second death", Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Peace to you all again.Love in Him.Annie

Annie,I need to do more work on this topic anyway, but I'd like you to agree or disagree with the meaning of the term 'tribulation'. Jesus tells the disciples, 'in the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33). This clearly tells me that Jesus Himself, through faith in Him, is going to help me overcome the world (1 John 5:1 - 6). Also, in Ephesians, there is a recurring theme of 'children of disobedience' who are going to face 'the wrath to come'. In these texts (and probably others too) 'tribulation' is attributed to the adversary, and 'wrath' is attributed to 'God'.Can you explain why, then, when the 'great tribulation' is discussed, a cloud of confusion seems to descend and people (believers) talk as if God is going to send the wrath on them, when there is no evidence for this? If Christians are still around when wrath is being poured out on children of disobedience, they have nothing to fear from God, only, to be prepared for tribulation from Satan - who has been causing tribulation most especially since Jesus came (and believers lined up with Him).What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers? Thanks.

ccchhhrrriiisss said:2. When a person dies, they are "asleep" until the Lord's return.3. The dead now "awaken" at the Lord's return (the trumpet call of God) and are transformed. The earth, sea and grave give up their dead. Our "rest" after death may seem like it was only an instant for all who have died -- but may have taken a much longer period of time as all of human history has now been fulfilled. Time is no more.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:Your position on soul sleep places you in the same camp as the Seventh Day Adventist's and the Christadelphianism Church who believe in soul sleep:Soul Sleep, thus #2 & #3 are in agreement with SDA Doctrine. This doctrine of "Soul Sleep" is also embraced by Christian Cults.When we come to the subject of soul-sleep we find this view has been sporadically held throughout church history. The Ana-Baptists believed in this in the 1500's. King Edward VI stated in his fortieth article out of forty-two, that "The souls that do depart hence do sleep, being without all sense, feeling, or perceiving until the day of judgment, do utterly decent from the right that is closed to us in Holy Scriptures."In modern times we have two well known major groups that hold to this teaching. One is Christadelphianism and the other is Seventh Day Adventism. Soul-sleep is the denial of man's conscious existence between when he dies and the resurrection day. It's what is called the intermediate state of the believer, in which their view is both the body and the soul lay rest in the ground.Also, your position on the one judgment only (Great White Throne) for the lost and the saved is also outside Christian orthodoxy.Those are the two reasons that, in good faith, I placed you in the Seventh Day Adventist Camp. Maybe you can reveal to us what "camp" you are actually in.God bless,SteverP.S. Based upon your non-response to many, many Bible verses that declare the two judments- one for believers and one for the lost. One called the judgment seat of Christ, and another called the Great White Throne, I have to believe that you are in a cult that lays down as mantra what is to be believed. I know all about cults- I was raised in the New Age and have great compassion for others that are so ensnared and blinded.

GrannieAnnie said:But I just wanted to express my view of the two judgments that I see ... as in "throw my 2 cents" in with the rest, as they say.I see these 2 judgments contained or summed up in Rev.20.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jesus said, several times, in both the Old and New Testaments, "I Come, and my Reward is "with" Me". Isaiah 40:10, 62:11, Rev.11:18, 22:12At His Coming, that is when the tares and wheat are seperated Matt. 13:29-43. And also in that same Chpt. (47-49) The net, where the good fish are kept and the bad thrown over board. Also, that this harvest of both the wheat & fish analogies happen at "the end of the world". At His Coming.The majority of Commentators through-out Church history have cross referenced Matt.13 with Rev. 14:14-19. With good reason.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: You are correct, however there are other judgments, referred to in the the Old Testament, the Gospels, as well as the Pauline epistles. They reveal to us a complete picture of 7 judgments. One of these judgments was taken on by Christ. He will be the Judge in the other 6 judments. 6 is the number for man:Seven Special Judgments of GodSeven judgments described in Scripture have special significance. These are,(1) the judgment of the cross which includes the judgment of the believer's sins [Christ took our sins while on the tree] (2) the self-judgment of the believer whereby we avoid God's judgment for sins, (1 Cor. 11:31); (3) the judgment seat of Christ immediately after the believer's death where the quality of a Christian's life is evaluated and rewarded, (2 Cor. 5:10); (4) the "sheep and goat" judgment at the start of the Millenium determining which gentiles may enter the kingdom; (5) the judgment of Israel at the beginning of the Millenium. This is described in Ezekiel 20:33-44; (6) The judgment of fallen angels, (Jude 6, 1 Cor. 6:3) and,(7) The great white throne judgment (or "last judgment") of UNBELIEVERS at the end of the Millenium.All judgment of mankind is committed to the Lord Jesus Christ. One man, Christ Jesus, is now ruling our entire universe as the Lord of time and space, and nature, and history, and human affairs. Every person's life and destiny is in his hands. Jesus himself said this:"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:21-29)The setting of the judgment of the great white throne is associated with an event in the Bible called the "second" resurrection."The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are ended..."...Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:5, 6; 11-15)Two different documents are presented at this awesome courtroom scene. Books recording the life-deeds of every individual are presented. These books are evidently the records kept by recording angels (see for example, Ezekiel and The Destruction of Jerusalem). The second book is "the Lamb's Book of Life" where the names of all believers are written "before the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8, see also, Phil. 4:3, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 13:8, Rev. 17:8, Rev. 20:12, Rev. 21:27). Although eternal separation from God might seem to be in itself the most awful and terrible ultimate punishment in itself, the text strongly suggests that there are degrees of punishment in the lake of fire, for "all were judged by what they had done."Ray C. Stedman, late pastor of Peninsula Bible Church in Palo Alto, California offers the following comments on the judgment of the great white throne:Here is a startling and terrifying scene. Imagine standing on a starship, watching the earth and the planets recede from view, the stars moving against the background of eternal night. That is the vision suggested by John's words, "Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them." This suggests that all of humanity will be removed from earth, perhaps from the universe as we know it, to eternity itself, where there is no space and no time. That is where judgment will take place.The judge is Jesus, not God the Father. "The Father judges no one," said Jesus, "but has entrusted all judgment to the Son." It is Jesus who sits upon the Great White Throne of majesty and gathers all the dead before Him. There will also be some living people from the Millennium, far it must be determined if their names are recorded in the book of life Judgment will be "according to what one had done." Deeds reveal the condition of the heart. Deeds reveal belief.All the deeds of mankind are preserved in God's great library. Books are a symbol of the eternal record of our lives. If John were receiving this vision today, the symbol would probably be videotape or computer disks rather than books. The books are metaphors for the record of every life---and the final judgment of every life shall be made on the basis of that record.Only those whose names are in the book of life can do righteous deeds. Only the deeds of the righteous will survive the fire of judgment. All other deeds will be consumed to ashes. Only those acts that have been done by the power of the Spirit of God and done for the glory of God will remain. Even the noblest and most impressive accomplishments, even acts which have helped many people or changed the course of history---if they were done by the power of the self and for the glory of the self---will vanish without a trace.If your name is not in the book of life, your evil deeds will be revealed. All the hidden comers of your life will be subjected to scrutiny. Nothing will go unnoticed. Today you may have a reputation for your devotion, your caring, your humility, your abilities---but in that day Jesus will judge the hidden motives behind your deeds. He will know if your real reason for service in the church and the community was to glorify God---or if it was all tainted by selfishness, pride, and the lust for prominence, power, influence, and recognition...When Jesus sent out the twelve disciples to minister to other cities and towns in Israel, they returned rejoicing that they had cast out demons with just a word of command. They were amazed at the power of God that was flowing through them, at the wonderful deeds that were being accomplished, at the fact that even the demons submitted to them in the name of Jesus."Do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you," Jesus replied, "but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."That is the central question in life: Is your name written in the Lamb's book of life? Beside this one issue, everything else pales in comparison. Your name is written in that book when you commit your life to Jesus.No one needs to face the lake of fire. No one goes into the Abyss against his or her own will. It is a choice we all make in this life. If we refuse the Savior, God can only give us the fate we demand.The issue of eternal punishment raises a problem in the minds of most thoughtful Christians: What about those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ? Isn't it unfair that someone should be condemned to an eternity apart from God simply because he never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus? This is a difficult question, but it is addressed in Scripture. Hebrews 11:6 tells us, "Anyone who comes to [God] must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek Him." God knows the intent and condition of every human being, and He will deal with every individual according to the great declaration of Scripture, "Far be it from [God] to...kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike...Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"We know that God only holds us accountable for the light of understanding we have received. Those of us who have received more revelation are responsible for how we respond to that revelation. Scripture does not explicitly tell us the fate of those who have not heard of Jesus, of the cross and the empty tomb, of the grace of God and the forgiveness of sins. But the Bible does tell us that God will deal justly with them.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXI hope this was helpful AnnieGod bless,Stever

by PreachParsly on 2005/8/10 15:23:19Judgement. I would like to get start a study on Judgment and the final estate of the wicked. Here are a few questions to start it off.How many times are we judged? Great White Throne, Judgement Seat of Christ.. Are they different?When? Imediately after death or at one time which is appointed by God?Is Hell [Hades] the final estate of the wicked or the lake of fire? Are those 2 different? Sorry if I posted too many questions. I just thought I would post most of what came to mind, but lets try to start with the first question. I hope everyone participates. :-) Hi Stever,Thanks for the exposition. I was just wanted to reply to what PreachParsly, this thread starter's, Topic was.My only concern is, when a belief, will not affect a person's salvation, is it worth it for me to struggle with them ?I think in each person's mind, we have our own lists of "biggies", like Of course the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, the Means of Salvation, then down from there. You know.We all find it interesting, to bout about queries, and speculations, and assumptions, and our beliefs,,, but something happened today, that I've seen happen on Forums before. (Not from you Stever or you guys)We all that are here, basically all have the same Statement of Faith, and we want to Lift up Christ. We're having Church, whether we realise it or not, and are here to Glorify Christ and edify and build each other up and I've seen that happening, quite a bit ... we're basically all getting along with each other, from what I see, really Neat .... so then what happens, the Site itself gets attacked from a lost-soul-antagonist .... so that only tells me two things ... 1- we're doing well together and 2-because of that, satan sends in his pawns/slaves, to defile or attack this site.When that happened today, and I'm sure it won't happen again, because someone at the helm, is on the ball .... I got so upset, I pulled the plug in almost tears, but then it hit me, how that, "When persecution comes, we all are going to get sooo close to each other ,,, that only our Mutual Love is going to matter anymore and to Protect and stand by each other."When as Jesus said, "there is coming a day when the WHOLE WORLD is going to HATE us" - Vehemently.And they say, Persecution brings out the Mutual Love we'll all have for each other.God uses all things together for a good, of one sort or another. Even the bad junk. That's why I just can't split hairs anymore. Seen too much of it on all the other Forums.It grieves my heart and heart disease. :-( I LOVE ya Stever and pray for His Best for you and yours and look forward to many more good discussions with you.Always !!Annie

Hey Dorcas,Would you mind if I pulled your post over to the Last Days Doctrine thread ? Maybe us gals, talking over there on that Topic would more suit this thread.Thanks.Love ya,Annie

Hey Dorcas,Would you mind if I pulled your post over to the Last Days Doctrine thread ? Maybe us gals, talking over there on that Topic would more suit this thread.Annie,I don't see why not, only I was hoping you could leave an answer in this thread in case it adds to PreachParsly's understanding - or gives him something he hasn't thought of before? Mind you, he can look in that thread too. I'll check it out. Thanks.EDIT added: Hey ccchhhrrriiisss,I've been meaning to state clearly, that I agree with what you've expressed about timelessness. When you said about sleeping and waking up, I knew exactly what you meant. It's a type of perceptual disorientation that we are so familiar with, maybe it's a preparation for that very event. EDIT end.

Oh friend, I'm too old and feeble to post that again. (Can't you hear the violins playing ? :lol: )Would this be O.K. ?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6767&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0 :-?

Annie,The link is great. The answer you gave is more than I could have hoped for. Thank you. Indeed the Lord is good. I hope you slept ok after that? 8-)

If I could change gears just a fuzz to offer a different perspective.According to my understanding, Death and Hades aren't places, they are conditions....states of existence ... "the state of death or disembodied existence".My best interpretation of this is that this condition will be cast into the lake of fire, fullfilling the completeness of God's righteousness and overcoming death, just like the resurrection of Christ, completely and eternally.This is not something I've looked into as much as other brethren, and probably yours is an easier interpretation to defend from scripture, than some of the theories which are going around, for instance, that all Christians will escape the great tribulation, to mention just one.

This post is in reply to a post by Dorcas, that has been removed by the Moderators from this thread. Dorcas had problems with my position that only the lost will attend the Great White Throne Judgment. The following are my reasons for my position:For the Christian to think that she/he will have to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment shows a total lack of understanding of the entire New Testament. Colossians 2:13 tells us "and you, who were dead in your trespasses....God made alive together with Him (Jesus Christ), HAVING FORGIVEN US ALL OUR TRESPASSES BY CANCELLING THE RECORD OF DEBT THAT STOOD AGAINST US WITH IT'S LEGAL DEMANDS. THIS HE SET ASIDE, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS.What a folly it is to think that our good deeds may one day outweigh our bad deeds. It is folly for two reasons:#1- It is not true. Even our good deeds are defective, because we do not honor God in the way we do them. Do we perform our good deeds in joyful dependence on God with a view to making known his supreme worth? Do we fulfill the overarching command to serve people "by the strength that God supplies-in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 4:11)?\tWhat shall we say in response to God's word, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)? I think that we shall say nothing. "Whatever the law says it speaks....so that every mouth may be stopped" (Romans 3:19). We will say nothing. It is folly to think that our good deeds will outweigh our bad deeds before God. Without Christ-exalting faith, our deeds will signify nothing but rebellion.#2- It is folly to hope in good deeds because THIS IS NOT THE WAY GOD SAVES. If we are saved from the consequences of our bad deeds, it will not be because they weighed less than our good deeds. It will be because the "record of our debt" in heaven has been nailed to the cross of Christ. God has a totally different way of saving sinners than by weighing their deeds. There is only hope in the suffering and death of Christ.\tThere is no salvation by balancing of records. There is only salvation by canceling records. The record or our bad deeds (including our defective good deeds), along with the just penalties that each deserves, MUST BE BLOTTED OUT- not balanced. This is what Christ suffered and died to accomplish.\tThe cancellation happened when the record of our deeds was "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:13). How was this damning record nailed to the cross? CHRIST WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS, so Christ became my/our damning record of bad (good) deeds. He endured damnation. He put my/our salvation on a totally different footing. He is our only hope. And faith in Him is our only way to God.Some of the reasons why Christ suffered and died:1.\tTo absorb the wrath of God- Galatians 3:13; Romans 3:25; 1 John 4:102.\tTo please His Heavenly Father- Isaiah 53:10; Ephesians 5:23.\tTo show the Wealth of God's love and grace for Sinners- Romans 5:7-8; John 3:16; Ephesians 1:74.\tTo cancel the Legal Demands of the Law against us- Colossians 2:135.\tTo become a ransom for many- Mark 10:456.\tFor the forgiveness of Our Sins- Ephesians 1:7; Matthew 26:287.\tTo provide the Basis for Our Justification-Romans 5:9; Romans 3:24; Romans 3:288.\tTo Complete the Obedience that Becomes our Righteousness-Philippians 2:8; Romans 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:99.\tTO TAKE AWAY OUR CONDEMNATION-Romans 8:3410.\tTo abolish Circumcision and All Rituals as the Basis of Salvation- Galatians 5:11, 6:1211.\tTo Make Us Holy, Blameless, and Perfect-Hebrews 10:14; Colossians 1:22; 1 Corinthians 5:712.\tTo Give Us a Clear Conscience- Hebrews 9:1413.\tTo obtain for Us All Things That are Good for us-Romans 8:3214.\tTo GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON HIM- John 3:1615.\tTo deliver us from the Present Evil Age- Galatians 1:416.\tTO RECONCILE US TO GOD- Romans 5:1017.\tTO BRING US TO GOD- 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 2:1318.\tSO THAT WE MIGHT BELONG TO HIM- Romans 7:4; 1 Cor 6:19-20; Acts 20:2819.\tTo give us confident access to the Holiest Place- Hebrews 10:1920.\tTo become for us the place where we meet God- John 2:19-2121.\tTo bring the Old Testament Priesthood to an end and become the eternal high Priest- Hebrews 7:23-27; Hebrews 9:24-26; Hebrews 10:11-1222.\tTo free us from the futility from our ancestry- 1 Peter 1:18-1923.\tTo free us from the slavery to sin- Revelation 1:5-6; Hebrews 13:1224.\tThat we might die to sin and live to righteousness- 1 Peter 2:2425.\tSo that we would die to the law and bear fruit to God- Romans 7:426.\tTo enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves—2 Corinthians 5:1527.\tTo make His Cross the ground of all our Boasting- Galatians 6:1428.\tTo free us from the Bondage of the fear of death- Hebrews 2:14-1529.\tSO THAT WE WOULD BE WITH HIM IMMEDIATELY AFTER DEATH1 Thessalonians 5:10; Philippians 1:21, 23; 2 Corinthians 5:830.\tTo secure our resurrection from the dead- Romans 6:5; Romans 8:11; 2 Timothy 2:1131.\tTO RESCUE US FROM FINAL JUDGMENT- Hebrews 9:28When the "Books" are opened at the Great White Throne Judgment they are opened by the Great Judge Jesus Christ. Every man that attends this judgment will have to compare his life with the requirements- God's Law. Every man that attends this judgment is found lacking when his works are compared to the required works, that could only be performed by God- Jesus Christ who took on flesh and died on the tree for the sins of mankind. The problem has always been that this is a free gift that humans have to accept or reject. The ones that accept this gift will not attend this judgment, only those who have rejected it. Their works are compared to the requirement- HIS WORKS. Next, the Book of Life is opened. At one time every mans name was written in the Lambs book of life. When that person rejects the gift (Jesus Christ- the Messiah, the "Seed of the Woman"), their name is blotted out of it: Psalms 69:28; Psalms 109:13. At this judgment, at this trial, the Book of Life is opened as proof that they are not in it. At the end of this judgment, every knee will bow to Him, and they will all be cast down to hell.Hope this is helpful to all.God bless,Stever

Dear Stever,This post is in reply to a post by Dorcas, that has been removed by the Moderators from this thread. Dorcas had problems with my position that only the lost will attend the Great White Throne Judgment...For the Christian to think that she/he will have to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment shows a total lack of understanding of the entire New Testament.My most complete response to your earlier posts, is the first post by me on the previous screen (page 5) from here. I'm not sure if you've had time to read it, as you have not responded to any of my points; I will not go back over that ground in responding here, to my quote from you (above), for obvious reasons, therefore.I've checked through this thread twice, completely, and can't find any post which has been removed by moderators. (Usually the moderator leaves the envelope with the post-er's name, and writes in place of the post, to show it has been removed.)I did post, asking GrannieAnnie a question. She copied the post and answered it in full in the thread called 'The Last Days'.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. The 18 other references to 'the book of the law' are in the Old Testament. There are no references to 'books of the law'. I may be too much of a lateral thinker, but to me, if the verses say the judgment will be 'according to their works' (of all those present), there is no need to bother with the book of life, if no-one's name is in it. Just bring the books which contain the 'works'. So God wants the book of life there. This suggests He expects to find those named in it, present.As I said in an earlier post, we learn what we are to be judged on, from scripture, and we should receive this information as signposting to LIFE.

Hi y'all,I forgot about this thread. Where's my head ? ;-) I think Rev. 20 answers a lot of this real quick. Verses 4-6 talk about "The First Resurrection", which has been re-named 'the rapture' (but that's another thread somewhere's :)But when He Comes, the antiChrist is destroyed by "the Brightness of His Appearing", the same "fire" that judges all on earth at His Coming. The tares are burnt up the wheat harvested (resurrected). Matt.13 & 25.The tares will then await "the second death".Then After the 1000 yr. reign of Christ on earth, Satan is loosed, (yuck), and of course, some heck breaks loose with that, "then" after the Lord puts a Final End to all of that nonsense ... then those who died saved (who were saved during the 1000 yr.s) and the unsaved (dead) will be Judged ("the second death" for the unsaved).Jesus says, enough times, in both the old and new Testaments, that He Comes "and His reward is with Him", that is at the 1st Resurrection.Our works are "tried by fire", but the fire is His Appearing - the same fire that takes out antiChrist and then we'll all stand before His throne in Jerusalem. Matt. 25Sheep to the right - goats to the left (judgment seat of Christ Rom 14:10, 2Co 5:10.) Once you're in your resurrected body, which is an instantaneous thing, you can just about say, you have your "reward", in that sense. But there will be differing levels of "reward",(that's determined at the judgment seat), as it says, we'll "rule & reign With Christ" for that 1000 yr.s and to me personally, the "reward" IS Christ, and the reward would be, being in any position that let's me be near to him. As near as possible, during that time and after. He is our reward.There is talk from Paul, etc. about "crowns", but we throw them at His feet. Of course :-) .I guess if you take all the end time verses you can find, and put them on one page, they fit together perfectly, just like a perfect puzzle.I can only recommend that one start with Rev. 20 and work back from there.P.S. How blessed you were Chris, to have that opportunity to hear such sound council. Praise God !!Blessings.Annie

The only complete authority we can take in all matters of doctrine and faith are what we feel the Spirit has revealed to us from the Word.Hi Chris,With you all the way here and glad you responded to Preach's post, as it was more powerful coming from you, who had had the convo with Bro Ravenhill. Strangely enough, I had prepared a reply including your testimony of that meeting, (though of course, not nearly as complete and authoritative) which disappeared before I could post it. Instead, my discovery that 'the book of the law' is always singular, contributes something original to this discussion, as it cannot account for the books (apart from the book of life) in Rev 20.

The only complete authority we can take in all matters of doctrine and faith are what we feel the Spirit has revealed to us from the Word.I try to never 'counter-post' Anyone, unless it's something somewhat sizable.This is a statement, that I fear to disagree with, because of .... well, you know youse guys. Some of you folks have been Very kind to me on here.So if you can forgive me if I say, this statement is not exactly right ... actually it's quite dangerous.The Holy Spirit will "lead" you into all truth, but not by "feeling", but by 'intense' study of His Word, and leading us BY the Word.The Word won't contradict itself, when trying to find out the truth on a specific "doctrine".The trick is though, is finding every single verse on that particular topic/teaching/doctrine that pertains to it.Then, with the Lord (His Spirit's Wisdom), "connect the dots".Any Major Doctrine, will have virtually endless pages of Scripture to back it up, that compliment each other, and fit together as a clear cut puzzle.If that's not happening, we need to go back and pray and try again.That's why I like all of these Bible Programs, because you can type in a word, and Up come all the verses.Before I had to sit there with that tiny printed Strong's and then write out all the verses. Phew !I have a sloppy saying, but it is nonetheless true.To prove a major doctrine, you must have a Truckload of Scripture that clearly and Literally (not spiritualizing the texts) to prove the doctrine.Everywhere possible, things should be read as literally as possible first. Only symbolism isn't literal, and would need other Scripture to interpret the symbolism, not us ... because Only Scripture can Interpret Scripture.That's apologetics, and not a gift, but something we're all called to do.I pray I haven't offended here at all and you know how many times I've posted John 16:13, and that still stands also... 100%.They say, proper apologetics, will normally have a "both/and" to it.i.e.,'Both' ~ We work out our 'own' salvation ~ 'And' , (because) it is God which works in you.Jesus was 'both' God 'and' man.He leads and we're told to Study.Etc. Etc.In the case of obedience, study, etc. etc. - you'll always see the "both/and" happening. As in, from our side - it's a "co-operative fellowship" between us and the Holy Spirit.Sound Doctrine must always come from The Word, and the Holy Spirit will guide and only confirm the doctrine 'by' the Word, and not feelings.Still friends :-o ? With His Love,Annie

The vision of Christ revealed in scripture is but a glorious keyhole shining light into our darkness... On that fearful and joyous day when we see Him as He really is in unimaginable radiance...all of our precious opinions will seems like straw.Brother, you sure know how to harness words. This is what I'd call perspective. Wow! 8-)

Hia Chris, I sorta "knew you knew".But for the appearance and other's possibly... Well, I just wanted to help, if I could, to clarify a little.When folks are saved, for let's say 5 to 10 yr.s, and they can't show you enough Scripture to back up what they believe or prove a TRUE Doctrine of the Church, it could appear in that case, that they have Not "studied" and "searched out" His Word. Somehow, "obtaining what they DO believe, by some other method, other than study."That's why I used the word apologetics, because we all should be able to define, "Scripturally" exactly 'Why' we believe, whatever we believe.I've seen so many answer, "well, I just think ... " or "I've been 'led' to believe" - or - "So & so says", and on and on it goes.I guess more than anything, I was trying to cover all bases in just that one post.I've seen "spiritualizing" of verses... Verses that never were intended to be. Or 'ideas' gleaned from the Bible, extended out from the mind, into all sorts of spiritualizing "mind pretzels".This is when JUST 'the Mind' is in charge of matters, when as said, His word is 'spiritually discerned'. ~ 'All mind' and not the aid of His Spirit of Truth is JUST as dangerous as "all 'spirit' and no mind/effort at all".Both are dangerous.But to say, "We can't know", is not a good place to stand ... at least not for long.We MUST know.First because we are commanded to and secondly it can mean the future 'life or death' of us, when all heck breaks loose and deception is so rampant, even now.Some doctrines (which only means "teachings") are & may be "critical" to us getting through to the end.And true-truth, Can be proved. That is why we all believe in 'Absolutes' or 'absolute truth'.If John 16:13 & others, didn't say "ALL" truth, than we could have excuse to "Not Know".Though we "know in part" on 'some' things, we still should KNOW what we believe and be able to give the defense Scripturally, because we've been faithful to Study it out, with prayer.With the last days upon us, I fear it's time more than ever, to really hunker-down and Know what we believe and why, by seeking God & His Word ... and maybe soon.Love you all.Annie