Emergent movement

NOT `RELIGIOUS'I find something very dangerous in this movement. There is an mixing of the world and of Christ so that people would not know the difference in many ways. It caters to the flesh and to please men but does not always ask what is the perfect and pleasing will of God. Christianity is COUNTER cultral, it is an thorn in the side of the flesh and the world. People don't want to hear the truth of God preached in its purity so they heap to themselves people who will cater to their needs and comfortabilities.I am sure that God is using some churches in this movment to save people and disciple them but my heart is to see the apostolic back in place in modern days. The book of Acts is our guidelines for how to be the church.

I love this subject, as I consider some of the ideas behind the emergent church desperately needed within the church in America.I'm at the end of my time today online, because there's a small man with me who needs to go to piano lessons, but I wanna make this comment about the article......isn't it funny, how they picked the "Well"?.....meaning isn't it funny they picked a church that was even CONSIDERING joining the PCUSA for covering.I consider myself "emergent" (whatever that means) and I would never be part of an assembly that would consider joining a denomination like the Presbyterian church of the USA...or Episcoplian...these two demoninations do two things that are just an ANATHEMA to any Spirit-filled follower of Jesus......stand for abortion andforthe ordination of gay priests.those are no-go's!! absolutely non-negoatible.But equally repugnant (to me) (and to a Lord that commanded His disciple to "sheath the sword") ...equally repugnant is this vicious, senseless, and UNWINNABLE war in Iraq.(I say UNWINNABLE, because NOBODY has coherently spelled out the conditions of victory in Iraq...ITS SIN......if you call out abortion as sin, be consistent in the Holy Spirit and call an unjust war what it is....SIN)I gotta LOT LOT more to testify on this....the emergent church, and I do believe an emergent church CAN be 1st century apostolic, and I do believe the witness of Christ is NOT a thorn, but the sweet sweet Fragrance of Life to those who are dying.Gotta go.

There are three elements of corporate worship that I really would love to see at the church I call home.1. Seating in the round. I would love to see churches move to this model where everyone has to actually LOOK at others, instead of the back of heads. 2. To borrow the "worship-sharing" model from the Quakers. That means a meeting would be this:as the Spirit leads, you share with the group, whether it be Scripture, a testimony, a praise report, a prayer request, anything AS THE HOLY SPIRIT leads. as I undestand it, the rule is that only one person may speak at a time, there must be a space of silence between two people speaking, and no one may speak twice until all have had a turn. at a house church in Topanga, we were blessed enough to try this, and it was a most blessed meeting.3. the Agape or love feast as a every Lord's day occurence. That the church make a meal together, and break bread together after every Sunday service. This to me is crucial. To eat together is a powerful elemental communal experience, it's a love thing, it's a Jesus thing.

I find something very dangerous in this movement. There is an mixing of the world and of Christ so that people would not know the difference in many ways. It caters to the flesh and to please men but does not always ask what is the perfect and pleasing will of God. Christianity is COUNTER cultral, it is an thorn in the side of the flesh and the world. People don't want to hear the truth of God preached in its purity so they heap to themselves people who will cater to their needs and comfortabilities.Greg,It depends what the raw material is, whether it's inappropriate to make people feel culturally comfortable at the beginning of their searching for answers in life.There is something called an 'Alpha course' in the UK, which has been very successful in introducing young adults to Christ. The course has been adapted for specialist use, too. It goes so far as to invite complete strangers (who sign up) to a meal every week, followed by discussion groups. There are no 'no go' areas of disbelief or apathy towards God, because the people that come are not to be pressurised into choosing to make a commitment to Christ. However, over a third of any one course, usually do. These people become proper Christians and are invited back to church and to a Beta course.What the article described first was a discussion in which people were invited to consider Jesus as the model for living. How can that cater to their 'comfortabilities'? (What an absolutely brilliant word, bro. (I love new words!)'it is an thorn in the side of the flesh and the world'This is very true, and as people find themselves more and more hungry for truth, they will bear that thorn willingly, rather than die eternally.The vast majority of the article, discussing the writings of someone who is willing to put key topics like 'hell' into the melting pot, instead of presenting it as a truth to be accepted, are dangerous. But can I say, you could easily find 25% of the believers who 'worship' on an average Sunday willing to question the existence of hell and Satan. That's why I wouldn't be over-critical of the 'emergent church', which without doubt, will be a conduit for some people to meet with God for the first time, or, to become acquainted with deeper truth, or renew a jaded commitment to Him.I gotta LOT LOT more to testify on this....the emergent church, and I do believe an emergent church CAN be 1st century apostolic, and I do believe the witness of Christ is NOT a thorn, but the sweet sweet Fragrance of Life to those who are dying.It is good to hear you say this, bro. This brings much-needed courage to testimony. If it hadn't been for the equivalent movement in the UK, I wouldn't know the Lord as I do now. The smell of death and anointing oil, is indeed relevant today.

There is something called an 'Alpha course' in the UK, which has been very successful in introducing young adults to Christ. The course has been adapted for specialist use, too. It goes so far as to invite complete strangers (who sign up) to a meal every week, followed by discussion groups. There are no 'no go' areas of disbelief or apathy towards God, because the people that come are not to be pressurised into choosing to make a commitment to Christ. However, over a third of any one course, usually do. These people become proper Christians and are invited back to church and to a Beta course.I am not saying that God hasn't and is using the alpha course sister dorcas, but frankly where do you find the in the book of Acts the "alpha" course. This is the problem that of much of evangelical Christianity with its vocubulary and uses are not biblical.Sure we are being effective to some degree but wouldn't it be grand to get back to the way the apostles did it? The emergent church I feel is not going this way at all but rather under the guise of trying to be more biblical and apostolic it is catering to the needs and wants of man.I was just reading about true preaching that John Wesley said either they will be angry with you or accept the gospel, and so it is when we preach the true gospel not an "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life gospel".

Wow... news alert!! There is a lot that Neil wrote that I absolutely agree with! (Way to go, Neil!)There are three elements of corporate worship that I really would love to see at the church I call home.1. Seating in the round. I would love to see churches move to this model where everyone has to actually LOOK at others, instead of the back of heads. 2. To borrow the "worship-sharing" model from the Quakers. That means a meeting would be this:as the Spirit leads, you share with the group, whether it be Scripture, a testimony, a praise report, a prayer request, anything AS THE HOLY SPIRIT leads. as I undestand it, the rule is that only one person may speak at a time, there must be a space of silence between two people speaking, and no one may speak twice until all have had a turn. at a house church in Topanga, we were blessed enough to try this, and it was a most blessed meeting.3. the Agape or love feast as a every Lord's day occurence. That the church make a meal together, and break bread together after every Sunday service. This to me is crucial. To eat together is a powerful elemental communal experience, it's a love thing, it's a Jesus thing.Amen amen amen...And Neil also said:I would never be part of an assembly that would consider joining a denomination like the Presbyterian church of the USA...or Episcoplian...these two demoninations do two things that are just an ANATHEMA to any Spirit-filled follower of Jesus......stand for abortion andforthe ordination of gay priests.those are no-go's!! absolutely non-negoatible.Just a note, we do seperate on the Iraq issue. Not sure what that has to do with the topic, but thats ok. It connects for Neil, but not for me.ANYWAY... as long as a particular "emergent movement" church adheres to Biblical doctrine, I dont have an issue with the style of service they have. In fact, it seems to run very closely to what those of us in the House Church movement practice. The only difference is they are a little bigger and meet in buildings other than homes.Anything can get off course doctrinally. House churches, denominations, independent churches, etc. Each fellowship needs to be looked at autonomously. I cant say all Methodist churches are apostate... that would not be true. I know of some that are right on, and I know some that make me wonder why they bother to consider themselves Christians.I personally welcome this style of church. It sounds a bit like how the 1st century church met. These folks were poor for the most part... so dressing in their "sunday best" probably didnt happen. The church in China, perhaps one of the strongest and most faithful churches in the world, meets in caves, homes, barns... where ever they can. They dont concern themselves with fancy dress and big buildings. Only in the materialistic West do Christian get caught up in the meaningless trappings.Krispy

sermonindex wrote: I am not saying that God hasn't and is using the alpha course sister dorcas, but frankly where do you find the in the book of Acts the "alpha" course. This is the problem that of much of evangelical Christianity with its vocubulary and uses are not biblical.The alpha thing is called a course because it systematically covers Biblical concepts and offers answers from the Bible for common questions, enquirers have.Sure we are being effective to some degree but wouldn't it be grand to get back to the way the apostles did it?I'd be interested to hear more about how the apostles' methods could be put into practise, as you see it.I'm aware that 'techniques' are often taught and tried for short spells as part of missionary training, but even the apostles abode generally within their cultural boundaries. Until a man or a family sets out to continue for months or years, it is not a real comparison.The emergent church I feel is not going this way at all but rather under the guise of trying to be more biblical and apostolic it is catering to the needs and wants of man.There are many men of the older generation (pre 1960s), who knew they were dissatisfied spiritually. These continued seeking till they found. They left a whole range of denominations, seeking a closer walk with God, till they found it. I agree the truth needs to be preached, but the seeker also has a responsibility to save his own soul.I was just reading about true preaching that John Wesley said either they will be angry with you or accept the gospel, and so it is when we preach the true gospel not an "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life gospel".Yeah! Couldn't agree more. That didn't do much good to anyone. Just for the record, that doesn't happen in an alpha setting, which is more in keeping with Acts 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

There is an ecumenical side to the Alpha Course movement that is unsettling to me.Krispy

I think an article by brother Jesse Morrell speaks abit to the dangerous prones of this sort of ministry in our day:The Church of the Comfortable and TolerantOnce upon a time in the land called Feel Good there was a Church. This new Church was called "The Church of the Comfortable and Tolerant". Very recently this Church hired a new Pastor, Pastor Peace Keeper, who just graduated from the Seminary of Smooth Talking.The congregation "of the Comfortable and Tolerant" loved the new Pastors sermons. Some of their favorites were "God is happy with everyone", "Everything is fine and dandy", and "There is nothing but good times ahead".Pastor Peace Keeper once made a terrible mistake. He wrongfully allowed Mr. Conscience into the pulpit. Mr. Conscience did nothing but called human mistakes "sins" and called the good folks of the congregation to "repent". Because Mr. Conscience had never been properly trained and instructed at The Seminary of Smooth Talking he did not know that he wasn't supposed to talk about "those things". The congregation of the Comfortable and Tolerant were shocked at Mr. Conscience’s audacity and arrogance. They said things among themselves like "who does this self-righteous legalist think he is coming and talking to us like that! Why should we allow this false preacher among us any longer to continue to persecute us?"Pastor Peace Keeper terribly regretted letting Mr. Conscience into the pulpit. Mr. Conscience has betrayed the trust he had with the Pastor. So Pastor Peace Keeper asked Mr. Conscience to please leave the church, he was not welcome there any longer. Everyone was happy that Mr. Conscience was asked to leave, except one member called Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit and Mr. Conscience left together and after awhile nobody even noticed that they were gone.Once things were back to normal, the way they had always been, everyone was happy once again in the land called Feel Good. Pastor Peace Keeper continued to sugar coat sweet and wonderful lies that made everyone comfortable in their sins and heavily guarded his pulpit from abrasive truths. Who could blame him? You see, the Pastor loved his new home, his new church, and of course he loved his new income. He couldn't put such precious things on the line! So he absolutely guaranteed that "The Church of the Comfortable and Tolerant" were as satisfied and as happy as they possibly could be while they sat in their complacency.They lived the rest of their days happily ever after, that is, until they were finally cast into hell.The point: Rather then preparing the way of the Lord and making His paths straight, preachers are removing the bumps in the road to hell to make it as comfortable as possible for those who travel on them. The backslidden church utterly refused to remove the log out of her own eye and therefore also utterly refuses to remove anything from anyone else's eye. She vehemently opposes those who try to do so also. God help those who attempt to clean up the church and the world! Joseph Parks said it best: "The man whose little sermon is 'repent' sets himself against his age, and will...be battered mercilessly by the age whose moral tone he challenges. There is but one end for such a man. 'Off with his head!" You had better not try to preach repentance until you have pledged your head to heaven."

and I do it respectfully, but you wrote:'The intellectual leader of the movement is Brian McLaren...And in his latest book, "The Last Word and the Word After That," McLaren questions the existence of hell.'That's really all we should have to read.I would take umbrage with those who say McLaren is the theological leader of the emergent church or "po-mo" church (post-modern)Some might say Leonard Sweet ishttp://www.leonardsweet.com/some might say that Dan Kimball up at Vintage Faith church is one of the theological lightening rods of the emergent churchhttp://www.vintagechurch.org/Dan Kimbal clearly explains what Vintage Faith church is about, and it sounds full Gospel to me, as well as other writings he has done:http://www.vintagechurch.org/about.phpDoug Padgitt of Solomon's porch might also be called an intellectual heavyweight in the emergent church:http://www.solomonsporch.com/In Los Angeles here, we have a brother named Erwin Raphael McManus, who heads up a church, a faith community called Mosaic (http://www.mosaic.org/) Erwin has a book out called "The Barbarian Way" and he's angered quite a few "evangelicals". (Praise God I'm evangelical in holistic Gospel outlook, but please please don't EVER call me an "evangelical") Erwin's angered people because he has said, ""The greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity." I agree with him wholeheartedly. He also said , "Somewhere along the way the movement of Jesus Christ became civilized as Christianity. We created a religion using the name of Jesus Christ and convinced ourselves that God's optimal desire for our lives was to insulate us in a spiritual bubble where we risk nothing, sacrifice nothing, lose nothing, worry about nothing. I wonder how many of us have lost our barbarian way and have become embittered with God, confused in our faith because God doesn't come through the way we think He should." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785264329/104-4221942-8746351?v=glanceLet me say this, every one of these brothers who I mentioned are leading lights within the emergent church, and every one of these brothers is FULL GOSPEL, sold out born again followers of Jesus. They might look like you, or vote for the same politicians, but they're Full Gospel.

I was just reading about true preaching that John Wesley said either they will be angry with you or accept the gospel, and so it is when we preach the true gospel not an "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life gospel".Greg, I am no fan of the various "prosperity gospels", but seeing as Jesus so desires an intimate relationship with His children, and that He DOES love us, and any Father DOES want the best for His children, what would be UNTRUE about Jesus loving us AND having a wonderful plan for our lives?In juxtaposition , what WOULD be the "true" Gospel?I ask this respectfully.I see the emergent church as a good thing and a God thing.

what would be UNTRUE about Jesus loving us AND having a wonderful plan for our lives?I think Jesus does has a wonderful plan for our lives. However, many use this as the motivation for people to get saved. "Come to Jesus... He has a wonderful plan for your life".While a true statement, the unsaved person often times comes forward without a real sense of shame and conviction over their state as a sinner who is bound for hell. They often times do not realize that before God they are a wretch without Jesus blood covering all their sins. Instead, they are coming to Christ because He can make my life better. Many times the situations in our lives GET WORSE by world standards. And I believe that when people come forward under those conditions... and their lives dont get better (in their eyes) they abandon their faith. They may feel like they've been sold a bill of goods.I think the statistics bear witness to that.Krispy

While a true statement, the unsaved person often times comes forward without a real sense of shame and conviction over their state as a sinner who is bound for hell. They often times do not realize that before God they are a wretch without Jesus blood covering all their sins. Instead, they are coming to Christ because He can make my life better. Many times the situations in our lives GET WORSE by world standards. And I believe that when people come forward under those conditions... and their lives dont get better (in their eyes) they abandon their faith. They may feel like they've been sold a bill of goods.The bit that is missing here, is the acknowledgement sinners need proclaimed to them, that God intends also to heal them from sins committed against them. Unless their healing is presented hand in hand with the injunction to forgive, as they have been forgiven, they are lacking in an essential faculty.If, as you read the gospels, you watch out for not only the mentions that Jesus 'healed them all', but also pick up the impression of the many multitudes whose individual members He healed, it is possible to 'see' this aspect of the gospel as indispensible. In the absence of its being preached in full completeness, 'people' are not necessarily able to understand how to differentiate between their causes of distress. Jesus Christ must be presented as the answer to it all, but, discerning the division between personal guilt and the guilt of others. One of the reasons people fall away and do not immediately have strength to 'pick up' their cross, is this deep lack of inner health. 'Healing' has been made into a spectator sport in some Christian circles, where nothing could be further from God's heart.While, therefore, Christians remain weak through lack of healing, of course they will fall away when things 'get worse', because they have not been strengthened by the Life of Jesus Christ, even if they have understood His death.

I never heard of this 'movement' before and just read all your postings and the first orginal articleHere is a quote from it. "He wrote in "A Generous Orthodoxy" that all people did not have to convert to Christianity to be followers of Jesus, that they could "become Jewish or Hindu followers of Jesus." He also raised Baptist hackles by dodging a question on gay marriage. He said the issue "breaks my heart . . . that there's no way I can answer it without hurting someone on either side.""Small groups where you refine each others thinkings and Conforming to the world are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.There is no 'true' structure of this 'movement' because its not a solid 'denomination' but a movement (just like the Vineyard). They have an outline of the way things go, but every church can be different but all in all you should exspect the same results. I'm not against a 'movement' cause im in one but it can be dangerous if the pastor/clergy isn't Godly and always seeking His will 24/7. Just like any church.