Has God predestined some for hell?

I was having a discussion about this with someone and the question they asked was, "How can God create someone when He knew they were predestined for hell?"Thoughts? In Christ,Doug

Yes, some.but Paul said:"[God]would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth."This question is really an other way of looking at the arminianism/calvinism issue. Seems to have been covered many times here. I don't understand all the workings of God in election and predestination but I do know somthing of the heart of God as demonstrated in his son. Even though the jews crucified Christ according to the predtermined will of God (Peter's sermon in acts). The Lord's desire was to gather them as a hen gathers her chicks - but they would not come.

My thoughts....God is a legal God, therefore cannot maintain 'selective salvation' the devil has to play by Gods rules and God has to keep them too. It comes down to CHOICE, personal between light and darkness. Really it comes back to 'why did God put the tree of knowlegde in the garden' CHOICE, otherwise we would be mere puppets.God is a God of LOVE, therefore no evil can be in Him, to create for the purpose to destroy is not of God. Select salavation is not of God, its your personal choice and yours alone. Yes God knows, but He has done all He can to prepare the way thru His Son, the rest is up to you!God knows the heart from beginning to end, but still gives you every oppertunity to repent and turn. God would have it that NONE should perish, but cannot and will not deny you of your personal choice and right to choose for your self. Rom 1 says ALL have seen the Lord thru His creation, that none are without excuse!Blessing....

Yes, some.??"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh. EVen for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. There fore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Romans 9:17-18) We have been around this topic so many times I initially thought I would steer clear of it, but there is an idea here (later confirmed by Krispy) that I would like to challenge.Firstly, there is no indication that Paul has personal salvation in mind when referring to Pharaoh; this is earthly destiny not eternal which is in view. The same is true of Esau, where the statement 'Esau have I hated was not declared until approx 1200 years after Esau was laid in his grave. In fact the original shows quite plainly that it is the 'nation' that sprung from Esau which is in prophetic view rather than the individual.The word 'harden' as relating to Pharaoh also needs some examination. Gen. 48:2 (KJVS)And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed. This is the word which is translated 'hardened' throughout the Exodus in relation to Pharaoh. It is, apparently, from a root which means to strengthen. The truth we see here is not that of 'a pre-scripted response' but that God 'strengthened' Pharaoh. It seems to me that Pharaoh fully made up his own mind and that God 'facilitated' this by giving Pharaoh the strength to go through with it.This concept may sound a little strange but if you recall the story of the prodigal son you will remember that it was the father who 'facilitated' the younger son's rebellion. He could not have taken his journey into the 'far country' unless he had been 'empowered' by his father. “And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.” (Luke 15:12-13, KJVS) That does not mean that the father 'willed' it, anymore than it means that God 'willed' Pharaoh's rebellious stance. I feel sure that Pharaoh would have 'chickened out' from what he really wanted to do, but God strengthened his heart. The ultimate challenge in this whole concept is Satan himself. All created things are constantly sustained by God present power. Satan's choices are his own; he was not predestined to stage his rebellion. But his daily 'empowering' must come from the only source of life and power. These are mysterious things and we must take our comfort in that fact that God's thoughts are not ours. He is utterly just and righteous and good and gracious, and a day is coming when we may understand these things. But in the meantime I think we should be cautious about God having created some for eternal torment.

I believe God is sovereign in election - that is, that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell - and that this choice was made before the world was ever created - and furthermore that it was not that God 'looked forward' to see who would come to Christ - but that God determined beforehand exactly whom He would redeem, and whom He would not.Dan/\\/\\/\\

But in the meantime I think we should be cautious about God having created some for eternal torment.Any doctrine that we come up with must be entirely consistent with the whole of the revelation of God's divine attributes. If that doctrine is not consistent with the light we have concerning God, we must go back to the drawing board. Those who hold the doctrine of unconditional election ultimately make God the author of sin and the father of lies. The author of sin- because it must needs be that He had decreed it and the father of lies because the whole of our understanding of what it means to love has been twisted beneath our breast as such that what we esteem is evil is good and what we esteem as good is evil. This is the danger of ever considering God to have elected anyone to eternal damnation- especially apart from their own decision to choose 'this day' whom they would serve. It is all one big huge mockery if things are as preplanned and mechanical as this. Better would it be to say that the passages in question made no sense at all as to say they made a sense such as this. The whole doctrine leaves out many passages concerning man's responsibility to choose rightly and militates against the conscience. When we suggest that God is motivated by our definition of sovereignty first, and not that which we consciously understand to be genuine agape love, we have made Satan into God and God into Satan. If I cannot trust my faculties as I bring them into harmony with the history of man in scripture, then I may well not believe hell to be a bad place. But God's word is also a revelation of man's condition and we can use it to adjust our conscience alongside the Holy Spirit to have the mind of Christ. And with the Holy Spirit bearing witness in my heart I cannot accept that God had unconditionally damned anyone. If I defend God in great zeal let it be that I defend Him in His sovereign right to save man from sin who would come to Him in saving faith; but God forbid that I would zealously defend a God that would eternally damn sinners to a hell unconditionally when He has already said He is not willing that any perish- but that all come to repentance. If our doctrines don't jibe with II Peter 3:9 they have to be discarded and reworked.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)God Bless,-Robert

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (Hebrews 4:7)Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (Romans 9:18)How can we reconcile these?Man's role in his own hardening is that he/she resists the Holy Ghost. Genesis 6 states that God's Spirit will not always strive with man for he is also mortal. Man resists as his role and God ceases to strive as His role in the hardening process. TODAY if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts. How do we harden? By always resisting the Holy Ghost. Resisting the Holy Ghost makes for fallow ground. The drier the heart the harder the heart until it all becomes as 'dust'. Who did the hardening? Pharoah? YES! or God? YES! Pharoah resisted the Holy Ghost until God obliged him and left him to himself. Left to himself man is capable of anything. Man without a conscience is not an animal he is a devil. What happens? Man says God I don't like you in my thoughts- so God says OK, then I'll leave. And when He leaves man is 'given over' to a reprobate mind to 'do' those things that are not convenient- no mattter what the context or situation. They do what they would not have done had they been restrained by the Holy Spirit. Hardening as I see it is the extinguishing of the voice of God and God responding to that extinguishing by complying with the sinners will. my Spirit will not ALWAYS strive- therefor TODAY if you will hear His voice- harden not your heart. God Bless,-Robert

Praise God Dan that your not God, no offense intended ;-) If there was predestined salvation, whats the point in serving God, your either saved or doomed either way, I mean, you can't get in and you can't get out, so either way you might as well let your flesh rule! Calv's list, on or off! No, no, no , no - this can't be so! The Word clearly says Jesus died for all! All that would recieve the Son would have Life and life eternal!Phew..... thank God for His loving mercy, grace and kindness!By the way, if you think your called to be saved over those that are called to be cast into hell, how do you know your on the "in list" over the "out list?" Maybe your just wasting what little time you have serving a ruthless God :-o Again, no offense intended, just trying to make point, in-love I hope :-)

If there was predestined salvation, whats the point in serving GodTo answer your question; because God is worthy to be served even if at the end of the road we go to hell. The lamb that was slain is worthy to be lived for regardless of what happens at judgment. I know these are hard words, but the truth. If we simply live for Jesus based upon the presupposition that we will go to Heaven at the end of the road that seems pretty selfish. Not that we shouldn’t expect to because we have that blessed promise, but again, it’s not about you and I, but Gods glory. Blessings!

I don't want to get into another wrangle but in the interests of scripture interpretation let me try to explain how we learn the use of Bible words. The Hebrew word chazaq is used, according to my Accordance Software, 290 times. The following list will give you a feel for the word. As you say, many words have more than one meaning, and it sometimes takes more than one word to translate another. This little list will show that of all the ideas that are built into chazaq some predominate in the OT translation. Total number of verses = 266 (total number of verses displayed = 266) [KEY H2388] (290 total words) aided = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 amend = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 calkers = 2 H2388 chazaq caught = 5 H2388 chazaq = 5 clave = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 confirm = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 confirmed = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 constant = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 constrained = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 continued = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 courage = 8 H2388 chazaq = 8 courageous = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 courageously = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 encourage = 4 H2388 chazaq = 4 encouraged = 5 H2388 chazaq = 5 established = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 fasten = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 fastened = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 force = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 fortified = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 fortify = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 harden = 4 H2388 chazaq = 4 hardened = 9 H2388 chazaq = 9 harder = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 held = 6 H2388 chazaq = 6 help = 2 H2388 chazaq = 1 H2388 chazaq hold = 35 H2388 chazaq = 35 holden = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 holdeth = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 leaneth = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 maintain = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 men = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 mend = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 mighty = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 obtain = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 prevail = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 prevailed = 8 H2388 chazaq = 8 received = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 recovered = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 relieve = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 repair = 8 H2388 chazaq = 8 repaired = 39 H2388 chazaq = 39 retain = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 retained = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 retaineth = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 seized = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 sore = 4 H2388 chazaq = 4 stout = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 strength = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 Strengthen = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 strengthen = 13 H2388 chazaq = 13 strengthened = 28 H2388 chazaq = 28 strong = 48 H2388 chazaq = 48 stronger = 5 H2388 chazaq = 5 sure = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 taken = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2 taketh = 3 H2388 chazaq = 3 took = 4 H2388 chazaq = 4 urgent = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 valiantly = 1 H2388 chazaq = 1 withstand = 2 H2388 chazaq = 2Of the 290 times the English OT has opted for words linked with 'harden' about 14 times. While words directly linked to 'strengthen' count for almost a 100 instances. Not only that, but the word is sometimes translated, help, encourage,confirm, help, hold, fortify etc account for most of the others. It is plain from this predominance that the translators usually sought for a word along the lines of 'making strong' when they wanted an English word for chazaq.This would agree with the general understanding of chazaq2388. chazaq, khaw-zak´; a primitive root; to fasten upon; hence, to seize, be strong (figuratively, courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer:—aid, amend, x calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage(-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengthen (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong(-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.Now what about Rom 9:18? sklErunO certainly means to 'harden' but it is interesting to note that Paul is almost certainly quoting Exodus. In fact, this is the word ,sklErunO, which is used in Exodus 4:21 in the Septuagint that Paul almost certainly had in mind at this point in Romans. This brings us to an important biblical concept. That Bible words do not have definitions, so much as histories. This is the kind of phenomena we find when we examine a word like 'metanoia' meaning repentance. If we just took the Greek dictionary definition of the word we would conclude that the word means a 'change of mind'. But if we consider its history we discover that the word is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word nacham; but nacham means much more than a 'change of mind' it has anguish in it, a gasp, a sigh, a groan. The whole sense of grief which is missing from the Greek word is found in the Hebrew word. This means that whenever we examine a Greek word we need not only to find its definition but to ascertain how a Hebrew would have used it. The NT use of metanoia always has the acquired Hebrew sense of 'grief' within it.Similarly, I would suggest, that when sklErunO is used to translate 'chazaq' we must carry into our understanding of 'harden' the acquired Hebrew sense of 'strengthen'. It is probably instructive that the NT only ever uses the word 'sklErunO' in the terms of heart responses.Acts 19:9 (KJVS)But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. Rom. 9:18 (KJVS)Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Heb. 3:8 (KJVS)Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Heb. 3:13 (KJVS)But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb. 3:15 (KJVS)While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Heb. 4:7 (KJVS)Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. It is important to remember that when the NT uses the word 'sklErunO' it is against an OT understanding of that concept, and the OT concept includes the sense of 'being strengthened'.

(and what my 2 grandbabies call me Robert :)...Grannie AnnieNow I get it.

Philo ~ 'Context-comparative' - "Only Scripture can interpret Scripture and never Contradicts itself ... anywheres." Read my post again and tell me where I suggest anything other than this.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. According to Scripture all men are without excuse for all men have been given witness that God is. But what happens to those who deny God? Again Scripture teaches that God gives them over to their own flesh. What is the result of God's decision to withdraw from those who deny Him? The heart is hardened. If God withdraws then man has nothing in himself that will preserve him. He is dead without the influence of the Holy Spirit. Judgement is a result of man's denial. Ezek. 18:19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezek. 18:21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezek. 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ezek. 18:25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Ezek. 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!” God does not lie, He desires that all come to repentance. We know from Scripture that it is God who must reach out to the dead man. The dead man because of God's grace, has only to respond and turn to his Creator.In ChristJeff

Marc_W wrote:Praise God Dan that your not God, no offense intended ;-) If there was predestined salvation, whats the point in serving God, your either saved or doomed either way, I mean, you can't get in and you can't get out, so either way you might as well let your flesh rule! Calv's list, on or off! No, no, no , no - this can't be so! The Word clearly says Jesus died for all! All that would recieve the Son would have Life and life eternal!Phew..... thank God for His loving mercy, grace and kindness!By the way, if you think your called to be saved over those that are called to be cast into hell, how do you know your on the "in list" over the "out list?" Maybe your just wasting what little time you have serving a ruthless God :-o Again, no offense intended, just trying to make point, in-love I hope :-) No offense received. I think the problem most people have in coming to terms with God's utter sovereignty is that they fail to see things from God's perspective, reasoning instead as though God were restricted to man's perspective.For instance - if I am here right now, I cannot be somewhere else - that is, I cannot be in two places at once. God can.Likewise my consciousness is limited to the present - but God's conciousness transcends time - that is, I am stuck in the present, but God is equally conscious in the past, present and in the future. He isn't shifting fowards and backwards - rather He is simultaneously in every place during every time.I mention this because my understanding of God's sovereignty depends on how 'big' my God is. My God isn't just a super human - He is HOLY ( -that is - He is absolutely and utterly Alien to everything in creation), HOLY, HOLY.Now I believe that God is fully able to predestine some unto salvation without violating or compromising their freedom to chose Him. They hear his voice because they are His sheep. They don't become His sheep by hearing His voice - rather they come when He calls on account of them being part of His flock.Likewise, God is not culpable for sending anyone to hell because even though they are vessels unto dishonor and ordained to damnation - yet they purchase it with their sin through their own free choice.In my understanding, God is able to ordain something that men freely choose - and because of that choice God is not culpable when a man goes to hell - and man is not able to boast when God saves him.Not everyone is able to understand God in this way, so I am never offended when someone doesn't. Before I took apart a rubik's cube, I was stumped as to how the thing could twist and turn like that and still be attached together - but when I finally saw it apart - it made perfect sense.Dan/\\/\\/\\

doug,That is actually a reasonable question. The key to understanding anything like this, is remembering that God is all-knowing, and that we (all of us) are not. It is foolish to say that the Lord doesn't know that outcome of history. He is outside of time. Therefore He knew who would be with Him before He created us. It is obvious we have a freewill, to reject the Holy Ghost, just read what Stephen said in Acts 7:51:"ye do always resist the Holy Ghost"Therefore God knows those who will turn their backs on Him, in fact, He knew before He created us. How can He be all-knowing, and not know that? He knew who His children would be before Genesis 1, but He never wanted anyone to perish, but He is just, and must punish evil:2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

How can the N.T. use a word that is "against an OT understanding of a concept" -- as you said ? And if the majority of Greek N.T. writers & translators chose "harden", why would you challenge that, when "harden" is in the definition and other uses of châzaq. That statement [quoted above] would throw doubt on the 'inspiration' of the Greek writer's choice for words in the N.T.. I used 'against' here in the sense of against the background of, not against the sense of. I don't challenge it. You seem to want to reduce my post to an either/or which was not my intention. I say we must 'include' the sense of 'stengthening' to get the sense of the way the NT writers use the word 'sklErenO'. The context of biblical truth, of course, is the Bible not just a portion of it. We must move from the OT to the NT but we must also carry with us the concepts that have been established in the OT. This is true of many Bible concepts, not the least being 'baptism' and 'repentance'. I will go further it is impossible to understand what the NT means by repentance without carrying the concept from the OT. When Jesus used the word 'repentance' he made it plain what He meant by saying 'the men of Nineveh repented'. That means we have to read Jonah 3 to understand what 'repentance' means. When John 3:16 tells us of the blessing of believing in roots it in the narrative of Numbers 21:4-9. This is the way the NT works; mostly taking its quotations from the Septuagint where a Greek word had already acquired Hebrew concepts.You will find no one on this thread with a higher view of verbal inspiration than me, so please don't question it. It throws no doubt on the inspiration of scriptures. If you had read my post you would have seen that I referenced the fact the the Septuagint used 'sklErenO' in Exodus 4. I don't think there are many who hold to the verbal inspiration of the Septuagint; where it is quoted in the NT that authenticates that particular passage and Paul's use of 'sklErenO' in the Pharaoh narrative certainly does that. My point, which you seem to find it impossible to understand is that Paul knew that 'chazaq' had been translated as 'sklErenO' in the Septuagint and because that carried within it the whole Hebrew sense of 'chazaq' it was a ready tool to continue the revelation.I am not splitting hairs on 'sklErenO'; I am trying to broaden the definition of its biblical use to include the truths revealed in the OT. I am certainly not taking away the inspiration of the writers of the New Testament and if you think I am it only serves to show that you have either not understood what I am saying or chosen to split hairs.

I am trying to see this whole issue playing out in how it is that God has 'strengthened' a person to harden themselves. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Ezekiel 13:22These are false ministers. Yet God has already said that he would test the people with such false ministers:If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul," (Deuteronomy 13:1-3). So could we say that by God testing the people that he has in effect 'strengthened' them to harden themselves? As Ezekiel puts it, the means (ministers) by which God was testing the people have, "strengthened the hands of the wicked... by promising him life." This seems to be no different than allowing Satan into the Garden of Eden. It 'strengthened' their ability to disobey by providing a means by which their love and devotion could be challenged. It reminds me of Christ being led into the wilderness... etc. Without that leading into a place where the playing field was a bit more even- the enemy could cry foul that a hedge of protection was somehow present keeping him from touching a person (as with Job). It seems reasonable that anytime God drops the hedge that He is strengthening our hands to choose to rebel if we desire. And in this process is encapsulated the whole- "blessed is the man that endureth temptation- for when he is tried... etc." How can a man choose other than God unless God takes some measure to level the field?

I find that type debate, quite Cruel and unChristlike also.Are you now accusing me of being 'cruel and unChristlike' too?

1Sam. 23:16 (KJVS) And Jonathan Saul’s son arose, and went to David into the wood, and strengthened his hand in God.RobertThis verse has long been a favourite of mine. The word for 'strengthened' is our old friend 'chazaq'. It is a wonderful concept and one to be commended to all servants of the saints. It is very easy to allow people to develop a dependency on us, especially when they are in need and we have something which will help them. Jonathan, however, did not just strengthen David's hand but strengthened his hand in God. The consequence of this exercise was that David became more dependent upon God rather than upon Jonathan. It reminds me of the unwitting testimony to John Baptist's ministry 'they heard him (John) speak and followed Jesus'.The imagery of Jonathan's ministry at this time is instructive. David did not need anyone to make his choices for him. David made his own choice, but Jonathan 'strengthened' him. It is never the role of one servant to choose for another, but as we are able we are to 'strengthen each others' hands in God'. The power of choice is sacrosanct. I do not believe that God would ever force 'choice' on a created intelligence; that would be to un-man man.I do not believe that God forced a choice upon Pharaoh but I do believe that God 'empowered' him to make it and to sustain it.

I find that type debate, quite Cruel and unChristlike also.Are you now accusing me of being 'cruel and unChristlike' too?When I was studying computerized engine control systems in the late 80's, early 90's I went to a special class on electricity. i kept asking questions on the nature of electrical theory that were well deeper than the teacher was able to answer. I was not taunting the man- I sincerely wanted to know because I was not content in my level of understanding. The teacher took GREAT offense to this and called my manager. I did not have a clue that my deep digging was making him feel like I was trying to pose questions upon him he could not answer in order to demonstrate my own personal knowledge. I gained a reputation as a smart elec (sp?) and was never able to shed that. I really wanted to know the answers; but what I did not know is that I was asking quantum physics questions of a man who still believed in the newtonian model of an atom. I had no clue and neither did he of quantum theory.So I came up with a little bit of wisdom for myself as I pondered this through the years. I came up with a definition of the word UNDERSTANDING. I postulated that it was simply the point at which I was content to ask no more questions. When I no longer had unresolved questions- I sort of felt into a peaceful mode that I considered 'understanding.' in other words, "It made sense" to me. But, what happens when we learn something that causes another question to pop up after we thought we had understanding? We have to go through the whole process again. What agony I go through when I do understand something? I guess what I am saying here is that 'hair splitting' to one is just another mans quest to answer those agonizing and nagging questions that the depth of his knowledge has unearthed and he no longer 'understands'. And maybe, just maybe, that person behind the other keyboard somewhere in the world and on their journey in God will give a clue- and shed some light in a direction that will either answer or lead to the answer of that nagging question- that 999 out of 1000 Christians could frankly care less about.