saved_matt
http://www.fireonthealtar.com/listen to 'A New Generation of Children in America'... out of the mouths of babes
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LISTEN TO THIS!!!!
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moreofHim
I have listened to this comp. before. There is something about it that gives me the creeps. :-o In Him, Chanin
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sermonindex
Tricky one. I'm not keen to hear recordings of this kind of thing and it seems cheap to put it on the internet. If one is there, it is a different thing completely. This is a type of voyeurism though and plays into the wrong hands.
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sermonindex
check the new comp the Lord gave me:"Dwell"I've got a new Thing I do with comps now, I only use the spoken Word of God, audio Bible, no preachers....just spoken Bible, and you know what the funny thing is?....the comps of mine I likes the best, are the ones with only spoken Bible...lol!
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moreofHim
check the new comp the Lord gave me:"Dwell"Will do! :)Be blessed, Chanin
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dougkristen
This is a type of voyeurism though and plays into the wrong hands.What do you mean by this?Curious...In Christ,Doug
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Compton
There is such a thing as too much exposure...too much divulgence. This recording of children is simply too naked. Though I want my children to know the mercy and love of Christ, I would not want them kept in this extreme emotional state and certainly would be angry if someone posted this tender recording of them on the internet.A life lived for God is not represented by these hysterics. Christians do more then weep continuously in anguish over all that's wrong with themselves and the world. This reminds me of a conversation I had with an unmarried brother recently. This brother had a weakness for introspection and perfectionism. One day, during a conversation about marriage, he confessed to me. "Once a woman gets to know me, I don't see how she is going to want to live with this imperfect man." I told him, "You need to get over that kind of thinking. A good woman will know she's imperfect too...as such she won't be attracted to your constant self-loathing. She is going to be attracted to your love, hope, and faith..."Likewise...this recording will not attract people. Hearing this documentation of little children whose religion seems to have taken all innocence and joy from them seems like an indictment of Christianity...not an endorsement. Now I find it remarkable that children so young are realizing they need Jesus desperately. However, if this really is repentance, and not something else... these little ones should not be encouraged to remain in this wailing condition as if there is some merit to it... What people need from us is the courage and hope and love found in our Saviour...not these piteous tears from our children. Using these recordings of children for the sake of creating an artistic complilation, is a form of exploitation and maybe even abuse. Let consenting adults undress themselves publicly if they want…but not minors.MC
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moreofHim
The first thing that comes to my mind while listening to it (which i can't for long) is demon possesion. I cannot for the life of me grasp the concept of the Lord using an innocent child to have these kinds of feelings that only an adult is capable of dealing with. I can hear the children crying and crying out in the background and it seems to me that it is a crime. There are enough adults in this world that the Lord may use and touch and get through to. I would be horrified if any of my children displayed anything like this. At these young ages, they don't need to know this kind of anguish. They are still learning how to love and honor their parents and neigbor friends.I can't imagine the long term effects of this on these children.Saddened, Chanin
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mtembezi
The recording brings me to tears.It reminds me of Duncan Campbell's testimony of the revival in Lewis; he says he came across two children who spent the night out in the cold praying that God would bring Duncan to lead their dad to the Lord. He says he found them lying down, faint.In my country, I've never seen such intensity among children. Except in two orphan's homes run by Christians–there may be more like that.I'm not a father, though I've raised a relative for some years and have been involved in children's ministry.From what I've seen, for many kids Sunday School is a place to go and only have fun and not to get their lives changed.And if their parents aren't sensitive, they go back home and watch ungodly TV and go to schools that teach them foundations of life that aren't based on the Bible.How blessed it would be for them to be among child prayer warriors. How blessed it would be for Sunday School to be a powerful prayer meeting, where they learn to pray for the lost in their schools.Obviously that's a recording of one prayer meeting. It doesn't reflect the what they learn and what other things God is doing in their lives.My humble opinion.
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Christisking
I was first lead to this audio recording by Dr. Michael Brown. I attended a meeting of his in Michigan in May and in closing he suggested that that the entire congregation go and listen to this recording of children crying out for God. My first impression of this recording was much the same as many on this post have expressed. But as I listened more, I was touched by the heart of God expressed in the out cries of these children.The next time I heard of this recording was when I went to see Bob Gladstone (Fire School Of Ministry) in June. At the conclusion of his final sermon of a three day conference he played this recording for the congregation. It completely wrecked most in attendance who were obviously ashamed and strongly convicted at their lack of brokenness and heart for God that these mere children expressed. After reading this post I feel that first reaction was probably the correct one and that the avocations of these recording by the above mentioned men may have clouded my view.I still like Dr. Brown and have great respect for Bob Gladstone. Both of these men have helped me grow in the Lord. I also realize that no one is right all the time and we must use discernment and realize every man will be wrong at sometimes. I am not trying to bad mouth either of these men. I know both of these men, as while as myself and every other man on earth, are wrong in some of what they say and teach, but I still believe these men have a heart for God, Truth, Holiness and Righteousness. I am just relating my experience with these recordings, how my views of them were influenced and other men (Dr. Brown and Bob Gladstone) who advocate and use them.I have deleted any references to these recordings from my website. I feel that at this point my original observations were correct. I fully admit that I was wrong and acknowledge my mistake. Thank you everyone for your posts and your thoughts and observations.
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sermonindex
Brother Patrick,Thank you for your sheer honesty on this matter. I do feel abit of an hestincy when I listen to this recording. Something definetly does not feel right and I echo some of the concerns that Chanin expressed. I am desperatly hungry for revival and an spiritual awakening but something in this recording does not align with that desperatness. May God guide and speak to us all as we seek the "better" and the "best" of what God has for us.
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sermonindex
dorcas: This is a type of voyeurism though and plays into the wrong hands.-------------------------------------------------dougkristen: What do you mean by this?Curious...Compton: There is such a thing as too much exposure...too much divulgence. This recording of children is simply too naked......Using these recordings of children for the sake of creating an artistic complilation, is a form of exploitation and maybe even abuse. Let consenting adults undress themselves publicly if they want…but not minors.Compton's comments say much better one aspect of my concern.Then, Patrick has shared about it being played to large groups of adults, to show them (the adults up) how 'prayer' should be done... :-o Further, if this was real praying, it should never have been recorded, but I don't 'hear' it as 'real' prayer. :-o Lastly, by 'in the wrong hands' I mean the fresh sounding 'cries' would be sexually arousing to some (psychologically sick) people; and putting it on the internet at all, is an unnecessary exposure - even if the kids were just acting. To my mind, it shows a serious lack of responsibility by whoever thought it was ok to use it. Examining this idea more deeply, I'd want to know if every parent of those kids was asked individually and consented, and, whether the person with the power to publish it, was related to any of those on the recording - simply because, adults with a lack of discernment (or, a hidden agenda) have a tendency to put their own children at risk. They may have no idea they are doing this, because it's a blank spot to them, or, they know exactly what they're doing. But, one would hope that an entire church group between them could find a way to protect their own children from this 'exposure'.Real praying is not a performing art, but this compilation hides that.
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Compton
Dorcas I can't imagine any parent approving of this recording.Real praying is not a performing art, but this compilation hides that.You know we've begun to equate public weeping with revival so much that perhaps prayer has become a performance art. Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear? Or are emotional displays like this the measure and proof of our repentance to each other? Such orphaned anguished pleas seem more fitting for the false priests on Mt. Carmel then for little children of God. Perhaps, if there is a thing as precious and fragile as holiness...it is innocence. Let's not crush our children with the sins of the whole world and then say "my, look at those tears! I couldn't be more pleased!"Now in case some think I am against children crying out to God or repenting for their sins let me share this brief story. I have a Christian friend who recently made the mistake of traveling through Las Vegas with her 13 year old son on her way out west. She had believed the advertisements that Las Vegas had some family attractions. They only stayed a couple hours because the "family attractions" were populated with scantily clad women everywhere. Later that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. These are precious tears of innocence lost that break a parents heart. This inexperience with the world is an inestimable foundation for Godly living in our children...laying the knowledge of the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish. A childs innocence is a precious and fleeting gift that will become a keepsake to them in later spiritual battles. Remembering it's sweet taste can help break their hearts over the bitterness of sin later in life.Maybe only parents of young children, who gaurd over this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this. I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church like barking and gold tooth fillings.MC
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sermonindex
listen to 'A New Generation of Children in America'I'd forgotten the compilation was called this, but Compton reminded me.I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church He also saidLater that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. These are tears of innocence lost. This innocence is what is most precious in our children...laying the burden for the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish. Something similar happened in my son's CHRISTIAN school. An ex-pupil who had completed first year at University, brought 20 of her paintings to display, including three nudes. The Headmaster in his wisdom, thought the dining room would be a good place to hang them. This caused so much loss of appetite in my son's group (the 11 yearolds) and concern (as he had had personal safety training) that he mentioned it at home. Immediately, I made an appointment to see the Head, and I could tell he did not capitulate until about half an hour before he met me, having asked an experienced female teacher of the youngest group, whether she agreed with me or him. Praise God for his honesty. He had them taken down before lunch time that day. His blank spot had been his French spouse and an acceptance of cultural nudity on French beaches. Because his children had been brought up with this in safety, he was genuinely resistant to the possibility of distress.Maybe only parents of young children, who watch this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this.Without doubt it is the life experience of my children and myself, which has formed the opinion I've expressed here. Abuse renders children (and adults) vulnerable to be abused again. The basis of teaching them how to deal with such situations in future, if possible without re-traumatising them, is a subtle business. This is one issue.Another issue, is that children who have not been abused, are nowadays abused by overt warnings and sex education, which today's adults somehow manage to justify to themselves, even though in so doing, many break the rules of engagement for discussing such things safely with children, and thus place on them the sort of burden to which Compton refers - the sin of the world.NOW, this compilation brings another thought to my mind, that here is the same generation of adults absolving itself of responsibility for keeping its children spiritually safe, by making an idol of their performance in church. Hideous.Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear? Yes. Let no-one say tears are essential for repentance. What matters is a heart's communication with the living God, in which a new understanding is reached - an understanding that is kept (treasured) by both parties.
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mtembezi
I defer to the parents wisdom, as I haven't had experience nurturing my own children. I don't know how old the kids in the recording were. I don't have authority to to speak about what age is right to expose kids to certain things (obviously) :-).Perhaps the question issue should be "Why compilations?" Compilations are made to bring a certain point strongly.I don't know how right that is. But if these children were sincere –I've no reason to believe they weren't– then to me it's a good thing, for obvious reasons. Whatever the motive of creating the compilation.Isn't it within the realm of possibility for children to have a great burden from the Lord?I have known children who were Spirit–filled and speaking in tongues at a very tender age (8-9). I know a child who preached at that age, stopped fight in schools and at her early teens prayed (for a season) for hours. I know a little kid of 5 who prays for healing of adults and other kids.I know their prarents too. And they are far from irresponsible, or 'unreasonable' in spiritual things.I know that others know such children.The orphanages where I've heard hundreds of kids praying in unison, or seeing them used to having intense praise and worship for hours is a humbling experience.Maybe I've got it all wrong. But I know of very few kids who understand the things these children so easily pray about.
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Compton
Perhaps the question issue should be "Why compilations?" Compilations are made to bring a certain point strongly.I don't believe compilations per se are the moral issue here...I think they can be a fine form of artistic and spiritual expression. Isn't it within the realm of possibility for children to have a great burden from the Lord? Certainly! I want to be careful here and not broaden this point into a policy of spiritual insulation for children. That would be a mistake. The examples you shared of children praying and even preaching in your last posting seem like precious moments in the Lord. Really, my discussion points are focused on this recording...the things the children were saying seemed too adult for them. Furthermore...I am disturbed that a child can display the impassioned emotional intimacy of a lover at such ages as these little ones sound like. I am just old enough to remember singing reverent hymns in church...I can remember feeling a little uncomfortable hearing the new style of charismatic worship that seem to introduce a romantic intimacy into church services. Nowadays, this mode of "Song of Solomon" public intercourse with Jesus is acceptable stuff in our worship and prayer services...however I think we need to remember that some of our adult expressions and behavior are unnatural for children. We should teach them to pray as children who respect and trust their Father...not as forlorn lovers aching for their beloved.Blessings,MC
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philologos
I can't imagine the long term effects of this on these children.I managed less than 5 seconds listening to this. It cuts through my spirit like a knife. I share your anxieties for their wellbeing.
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allhavsinned
Like Saved_Matt originally, when I first listened to this I was awed that kids could call upon God like adults, I have two girls, 10 and 6 and I thought if I was a good Christian parent I could encourage them to be like this before God. However, after reading this thread, I listened a couple more times to this track. What came to mind was when, as a teenager myself, I was in a cult with my mum for about a year, I recall, not necessarily kids, but people straining to call out to God, I did it myself thinking about the blind man who wouldn't be hushed. But the spirit behind it was unworthiness and a feeling of condemnation for sins that had already been forgiven. It is hard to imagine such young children could feel so great a burden of sin without an adult in authority over them continually pushing them into repentance with threats that are not from a loving heart. Like I said I have been there and this sounds very similar. Just my 2 cents.
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HopeinChrist
After reading many of your comments concerning this recording, I have also paused to take a closer look. I have thought on this quite a bit today and have been seeking the heart of God on it. Many have made some very sobering observations which I have taken seriously, but I believe we are making conclusions based on a very limited bit of information. I first heard this recording quite a while back and I remember quite well my reaction to it at the time. I would like to share it, as I think it brings a different perspective. I am a mother of 3, ages 18, 15 and 3. The older two were preteen/teen age before I began to "work out my own salvation" and become serious about serving & seeking the Lord. Although they were exposed to religion, God was never a priority, but rather something that was worked in when convenient.(Prayer was for Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner or if there was some tragedy.) They now have a numb, apathetic attitude toward spiritual things. They are too fascinated by the world. (both of them would name the name of Christ, but.....) I am standing in the gap for them and know God has heard my cries. I am waiting upon the Lord and believing not only for their salvation but that God will be glorified by their life and testimony. My 3 year old however has been exposed to, immersed in and surrounded by prayer since the womb, both corporately and privately. I have always felt that this would be of great spiritual benefit to her. I/we may not always pray with the fervency that is heard on this compilation, but at times I/we do. It has been my personal experience that there is often times an unexplainable unction to prayer, like a fire inside that has to be spoken. Because if this, when I heard the compilation my thoughts were that these children had been exposed to and surrounded by intense corporate prayer for years and they simply caught the fire. It doesn't mean that they are (quote) kept in this extreme emotional state or weep continuously in anguish over all that's wrong with themselves and the world. (end quote) Perhaps it is a possibility, but I have a hard time imagining that to be the case. We can't really make a judgement by just hearing this recording. We don't know these children or their families. They could be extremely well adjusted kids who love Jesus and don't want to see their friends go to hell. Sounds like someone God could use. (quote) There are enough adults in this world that the Lord may use and touch and get through to. (end quote) I wouldn't be too sure.Eze. 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. (I know this is not referring to intercession but it was laid on my heart)Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Just some things to consider.Hope
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saved_matt
I'll be honest i originally posted this beacuse the audio brought me to tears, (not a very common thing with me sadly), i appreciate the air of responses put on this thread and i understand how this audio is definitely invasive to both the children recorded and their families.But as has already been stated we don't know the origin of the recording, it could have been done with parental consent, but equally it could not. The fact that it has been posted on a website though does after reflection trouble me, i think it was Dorcas who said it could be exploited by sexual perverts, this hadn't occured to me but now it does trouble me.Also peoples personal experience with this type of thing like allhavsinned, does bring the nature of the recording into even more glaring light.I feel the recording needs to be set in deeper context by anyone offering it for download, but again all the context in the world won't stop it being exploited.matt
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moreofHim
When I first listen to this compilation, it brought me to tears as well, how can it not? It still brings me to tears. To hear anyone crying like that, especially children, it will bring you to tears and your emotions cannot help but come into play. That, i think is the danger here.We cannot let emotions always sway us. We don't run our lives by our emotions, or at least we shouldn't. Feelings change with the wind, Truth does not. You cannot trust "feelings". I am wondering how far we must go with stirring up the emotions to bring conviction. I don't know the answer exactly, but I know this is too far.My children are 6, 9, and 15. My two youngest are not "on fire" for the Lord as of yet, but my oldest has been on fire since she was about 12 or 13. She has developed a burden for the lukewarm church, for missions, etc... She has a passion for the Lord that is not like any other that i've seen at her age (sorry Arielle, that i am talking about you :) I could not have asked the Lord for a daughter who could be more committed to the Lord, with wonderful discernment and just a sad, sad heart for the compromise of the church-- yet she has a real problem with this compilation. She cannot bear to hear it. To her also, it sounds demonic in nature. Yes, this compilation may bring people to tears and the words may convict, but at what cost? I think that many who listen to it, even those who are brought to tears, can sense something is just not right about the whole thing. Yes, children can weep and be sorry for sin, but where have they learned to scream and show no sense of self -control. God can just as easily hear our prayers and cries in our prayer closets and in our homes around the family table. Someone mentioned a 'cult', and from what those kids may have been exposed to, I have to question the motivation of the adults and the carefulness to guard innocent hearts. The main speaker (girl) talks about 7, 8 year olds as well. Children this age are still learning obedience to the Lord and to their parents; learning the fruits of the spirit, etc.. I would rather have a child who was committed to learning how to love the Lord and their neighbor, and the displaying the fruits of the Spirit,- than a child who was in anguish over the state of our country but lacked in fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control).Our children are to be cherished and their hearts should be guarded while they are young. They are to be gently molded into Christ-likeness. I am very sad still for those children who lack peace of mind and joy. They will have plenty of time and opportunity to feel burdened and wearisome as they grow into adults. Let's let them be children.In His love, Chanin
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GaryE
I'm surprised by the response of most of the people who wrote. My thoughts about this recording were and are good and I'm surprised so many come to the opposite in your thinking. It does bother me that some people whose judgement I trust have this negative opinion.It has been said that these children were praying as adults. I'm wondering how many of the adults who have responded to this in a negative way have ever prayed like this. If you have, do you still pray like this?Most of us probably have come to the conclusion that we don't come to God through feelings, however, if you really love someone {God} feelings are a part of love. It is a very good idea that all of us should break an alabaster box at the feet of Jesus.One who has been forgiven much,GaryE
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ccchhhrrriiisss
Hi GaryE...I listened to the recording, and I am torn on how to receive it as well. It's not that there is anything wrong in what they said. In fact, I hope that the prayers were honest. My only concern (and ever so small concern) is the way in which such prayers are said. It sounds like a very private prayer being offered in a very public way. A friend of mine once called them "preachy-prayers" -- in which you want others to listen to what it is you are saying (or praying). I'm not saying that such prayers are always wrong. Sometimes you want someone to agree with you concerning an issue. But it sometimes seems that, even with tears, such well-meaning prayers are offered with the listeners in mind first (even before God).Having worked with a large children's ministry a few years ago, it is amazing what you can learn from and about children. There is a misguided perception from many Christians to accept what children say because they are so innocent. Perhaps that was true a few decades ago, but this is a fairy tale in modern America. Children are growing up faster than ever (probably too fast). And along with this, they are facing many of the same "character issues" that adults face. I have noticed that well-meaning children often want to be very pleasing to the important adults in their lives (like their parents, pastors, etc...). While helping with the children's ministry at an Assembly of God church that I attended, I noticed something quite astounding. A well-known "holy laughter" minister held a two-week "crusade" at the church. Many people (including myself) felt very uncomfortable about the doctrine being taught and preached from the pulpit. During one of the Sunday morning services, this "evangelist" decided he wanted to go to the Children's Church to "start a revival" amongst the children. This man came into this very large Children's Church (mostly filled with children that were bussed in from poor areas around town). The "holy laughter evangelist" began to tell the children that he was going to lay hands on them -- and that most of them were going to fall on the ground and some would begin to to laugh uncontrollably (as if they were drunk). Some might regard such "preliminary explanation" as being an act of faith. However, it is often a mental trick offered by some ministers (even some well-meaning ministers) to subconsciously suggest what they want to happen.Once this man begins praying for the children, I noticed something quite peculiar. The children coming on the buses just stood there. Many of these children are quite honestly sincere in their hunger for God -- and actually became afraid when nothing happened. However, some of the children that were raised in Church (perhaps 25 of them) actually did what the "minister" suggested. They were "slain in the spirit" and some of them "laughed like they were drunk." However, I noticed that some of the kids laying on the ground with their eyes closed would often "peek" to see what was going on around them (or who was watching them), and then close their eyes and go back to their state of laughing. Can children "fake" things? Sadly, the answer is yes. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are insincere in all that they do. It just shows that they often learn through imitation -- and that in some cases, they have become alot more like adults than we often give them credit. Like stated earlier, I hope that these children were sincere. I am not going to try to read too much into it. But I am also not going to be moved by public prayers that should be coming from the hearts of all believers -- regardless of whether they are children or not. :-)
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TiltedHalo
Hm. This is something else. And I was torn when I began listening to it. But the cries of these children from the pits of their hearts are amazing. I've read everyone's reply thusfar & I can understand why it's become a tug of war. But I would love to know who has the authority on this website, on this Earth, or in the Heavenly Realm to say what or whom God can use for His glory, for His purpose?Does anyone? Who is to say that these "innocent" children cannot be used by the Almighty. If the Lord saw fit, He would use the very stones on the ground to pour their hearts out to the Lord. So who is to decide that "God wouldn't do this ... He would do that" with the exception of His own revelation in His word?As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent. I believe the Almighty does not love & desire children for their supposed "innocence". You have to instruct a child to truth. You have to instill honesty in them. To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart. Now, I do not want to be simplistic here, but we cannot claim that children ... are innocent. So if not innocence, why does God love children so, & desire for us to be like them?Incompetence He loves children because they are simply incompetent. What can a child do on his own? Can he feed himself? Can he work? Can he provide for himself? Can he depend on himself & himself alone? Can he do ANYTHING for himself? Does not a child seek his parent for every single little thing? Does he not seek his parent for wisdom? For food? For clothes? For EVERYTHING? The Lord wants us to just simply come as children. Fully dependant on Him & Him alone.Abba, from you comes all things. There is not a single breath that enters the lungs You gave me, that does not come from you.Full dependence.But to get back to the topic at hand. Initially, it rattled me but I see how God can manifest Himself in any of His creations. I don't hate children by the way lol ... I actually want to work with them, but I do understand that the label "innocent" (I believe) shouldn't be stamped upon them.In Christ
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sermonindex
As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent. I believe the Almighty does not love & desire children for their supposed "innocence". You have to instruct a child to truth. You have to instill honesty in them. To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart. Now, I do not want to be simplistic here, but we cannot claim that children ... are innocent. But, the adult world can protect children from learning about some things until the information is age-appropriate. Of course, in the lives of individual children, some things will come as a matter of unavoidable life-experience, such as death. But, in general, the adult world doesn't do all it could to prevent children from being unnecessarily exposed to harmful influence. If it thinks at all, it 'thinks' kids are fair game to be corrupted.Now, that is understandable outside the church, but, the reason some of us are unhappy about this recording (and it being on the internet) is because within the church, there appears to be no more discernment, than in the world - maybe, even less! The Lord wants us to just simply come as children. Fully dependant on Him & Him alone.It is precisely because children are so dependent that is behoves Christian adults to do a LOT BETTER than the world's adults.God does not need children to be abused, to get His message across. Yes, children are in sin as much as the next adult, but, how they express that is subject to their limited physical power, understanding, and, opportunity. An adult has none of these constraints and too often is not paying attention to the children nearby, who are absorbing the good with the bad, effortlessly.I hear those of you who think the children in the clip are genuine. If they are not acting, then they are genuine, but, they are being manipulated. Of that I am 100% sure, but, no-one else need agree with me, if not sure.
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Compton
As a sidenote, I believe, children are not at all innocent... To say that little children do not have darkness in their hearts is to say that there is an "age" in where darkness enters the heart.Innocence can mean several things. I certainly do not use the term to mean "without sin". I meant that children are inexperienced with many adult themes and preoccupations. Latent darkness with a potential to sin is quite different then having endured the scars and disfigurement of having acted out these sins. Helplessness or incompetence describes children I suppose, but this is not the same as innocence. Now most parents know their children aren't "perfect angels", so if we cannot agree on "innocence" then perhaps we can agree on "inexperience." If you are intending to work with children it would be a kind thing to learn that children (hopefully) are inexperienced with sin and it's devestation even while they have a sin nature.Now I wouldn't want to overstate this point or proclaim some universal maxims on children...my reaction is specifically to a recording that roused my instincts as a parent. I am not saying that children can't be aloud to cry. I realize there will indeed be times when my children, as they grow up, will experience anguish in their walks with God. That does not mean that we should publish, celebrate and routinize this experience as some sort of desirable spiritual benchmark. Hopefully the view I present makes sense. I am of course only speaking as one parent of a few children and not an authority of all children everywhere. Yet, when it comes to my limited authority as a parent I have an important repsonsibility to discuss issues that affect the spiritual community my children experience. My goodness, if I found out that the childrens pastor at church was teaching my children that God is waiting to be moved by extreme emotional pleas or that crying tears will endear them more to Jesus I would want someone's head on a stick! (Metaphorically speaking of course:-x ) Blessings all, MC
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HopeinChrist
If they are not acting, then they are genuine, but, they are being manipulated. Of that I am 100% sure, but, no-one else need agree with me, if not sure.what are you basing this 100% assurance on?Hope
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rosscoex
hi there, my first reply onthis forum. I believe that we are sometimes mistaken about the term innocentand it's meaning. I believe that in the biblical sense it means " not having DONE wrong with the same intention " . WE all have Original sin and the fact of it is never hidden that we have inherited it either. But it much more important than just not knowing how to tie our shoelaces, for example, and it is not even a comarison of how we should live, except that we AS ADULTS choose to become children ( again ),,,,,,,cheersRosscoex
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sermonindex
what are you basing this 100% assurance on?Personal experience. This is all I want to say.But, for the sake of those who may wish a fuller answer - I have heard the same 'voice' coming out of my own mouth. As it happens, it was not in a church situation while I was a minor, but, since experiencing deliverance and developing some discernment, what arrests me on hearing the recording, is the spiritual content I can 'hear' in the voice. On top of that, I also hear the words, which Compton 'hears' with ears for other aspects of what is actually being said.Later as an adult, I attended a 'church' (cultish) for 10 years (altho once planning to move area, went there less, but still not 'knowing' what was wrong - only that something big and serious was out of sync with God) where many times I went forward for prayer. Many times, I was at the mercy of the man who prayed for me and I know he damaged me spiritually on some of those occasions; but when one is confused because the preaching makes one confused, God cannot meet, because one is praying for the 'wrong' thing (although I have to say God did as much for me as He could under those circumstances). It was not till I was at my new church for the first time and went forward again for prayer, that I began to get a handle on how I'd been kept chained up. The elder who prayed for me touched on something so basic, which I had never even known was there but now, knew it always had been, that I instantly worked out the previous 'pastor' had deliberately not dealt with that (spiritual) issue, (to keep me in bondage). So now, you want to know how I was vulnerable to such a situation (10 years in a cultish setting) and the answer is, I arrived there in much need and fell for all the promises made about how blest I would be if I gave a minimum of 100% commitment. Within the system I found myself, what was required was to stop listening to God Himself, and start being pushed around by the leader - much bartering over the conditions under which God could or could not bless (one) until one had been robbed of all assurances of one's previous knowledge of God. After that, one was just like a drum, on which this man beat whatever tune he was in the mood for.
C
crsschk
I managed less than 5 seconds listening to this. It cuts through my spirit like a knife. I share your anxieties for their wellbeing.After reading through much of this and wondering what all the fuss was about...Have we lost our ability to think, too discern? Not in speculating the context, setting, making assumptions and or philosophizing. My goodness, these are children, children! Enough has been said by a few here as to the exploitation, the parents need their heads examined.
T
TiltedHalo
Hm. Babes. What can contain God's Sovereignty? Who can measure His understanding? Who can trace the paths of the Almighty? Who can forsee His plans? Who can discern His purpose? Who has enough pride in their hearts to answer 'I'? Who can say the Lord shall use this for His glory, & not that? Whom I ask?We cry out "They are just children!". Does not even Satan use "children" for his glory? Do we not see children killing children? Why do we have such a hard time seeing children reach out to God in such a fervant manner? Yet, we can just easily say, "Satan was at work when that 11 year old girl kill her 4 year old sister". Why can't we see the glory in seeing an 11 year old girl pouring her heart out to the Lord for her fellow brothers & sisters?Again, the Lord Almighty may use what & whom He pleases to bring glory upon Himself.If there is insincerity in these childrens hearts then I would speak differently of this recording, but as it stands, I see no real issue with the grounds of their hearts being poured out as such.In Christ.
S
sermonindex
Hello brother TiltedHalo,You asked quite a few questions there -What can contain God's Sovereignty? Who can measure His understanding? Who can trace the paths of the Almighty? Who can forsee His plans? Who can discern His purpose? Who has enough pride in their hearts to answer 'I'? Who can say the Lord shall use this for His glory, & not that? Whom I ask?It may be 'pride' to answer 'I' if one is only guessing in the strength of a human mind, but God Himself gives answers. "What can contain God's Sovereignty?"2 Peter 116 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."Who can measure His understanding?"Ephesians 317 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto him glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. "Who can trace the paths of the Almighty?"Mark 1:2As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. "Who can forsee His plans?"Matthew 1127 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."Who can discern His purpose?"1 Corinthians 29 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. If there is insincerity in these childrens hearts then I would speak differently of this recording, but as it stands, I see no real issue with the grounds of their hearts being poured out as such.I don't think you have any idea how hard a bunch of adults has worked to produce this sort of 'prayer' from youngsters. The polished theology gives it away completely. If we were hearing conviction from the Holy Spirit, it would minister differently to the spirit; but, I accept you don't 'hear' what I and others do.
C
crsschk
Why can't we see the glory in seeing an 11 year old girl pouring her heart out to the Lord for her fellow brothers & sisters?Why do we assume that this is necessarily so?Again, the Lord Almighty may use what & whom He pleases to bring glory upon Himself.Indeed He does, but does that mean we are to accept everything done in His name as valid?Surely we can all speculate as to the setting and to what may or may not prompted all this. But there is the element of the children aping the parents here that is difficult not to miss, like them they may be sincere, but that does not always equate to being something more than emotionalism. They are still children and the parents are still responsible for their well being, that I believe is what is disturbing here.Where did they learn to scream out such things? They are not even old enough to understand the beginnings of the depths of depravity of man and yet they are able to make such pleas without any such experience?
C
Compton
Where did they learn to scream out such things? They are not even old enough to understand the beginnings of the depths of depravity of man and yet they are able to make such pleas without any such experience?This statement captures my concerns better then all my posts in this thread. We can encourage children to love the Lord with all their hearts but let's protect those hearts. Such an explicit understanding of the darkness and depravity of mankind in the cries of wee children is a haunting and unholy juxtaposition. Does not even Satan use "children" for his glory?Yes, using children is a hallmark of the devil and cults. In contrast, Jesus loves the little children. I dislike semantics but in this case I thought the difference was worth pointing out. MC
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TiltedHalo
You are right on a lot of points. Sincerity in no way proves validity. And just because things are done in His name, again shouldn't automatically lead us into adopting it. And this COULD very well be pure emotionalism. But what if it isn't? Is it occult because of their age? Can they not understand the wages of sin? Can they not understand "where you go" without Christ Jesus? If so, why not?Pardon me for playing devils advocate, but experience also does not equate growth. These children may have very well been touched by the Spirit. I don't want to be simplistic here but I have seen with my very own eyes children to preach the word of God better than I've seen many adults, to according to the lot of you, "understand the depravity of man". I have seen a very young child weeping her eyes out because she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart that night. So again, I go to the question, why can this not come from God?In Love
T
TiltedHalo
"In contrast, Jesus loves the little children"Does Jesus not love big children, like you and I, as well? Would we be putting an age limit to what God can & cannot use?If we would come across a donkey that can speak for the glory of God, would we say that God cannot work that way as well?In Love
T
TiltedHalo
I wouldn't try to sit here and serve a rebuttle to everything you've stated but let me simply say this:You cannot, nor I, nor anyone for that matter take scripture out of it's context to serve as a "point-maker". When,[if] we begin to even fool ourselves into thinking that we can get a grasp on God's ways, then that will be a very dangerous thing. Who can say that our ways are of the Lords? Who can say that we, with our finite minds, understand His ways? We can understand the things He has given us, but in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other.Paul writes: (quoting from OT scripture)Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the reasonable knowledge of God!How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out!Who has known the mind of the Lord?Or who has been his counselor?Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?For from him and through him and to him are all things.To him be the glory forever! Amen.As Solomon writes:As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.In Love
S
sermonindex
Brother TiltedHalo,The question is not whether children can know God, receive from God, preach the truth or be used in other ways in His service. It is, in this discussion, entirely about whether the adults who trained those children, recorded those children and made the recording available on the internet, are acting on God's instructions (ie are being guided by the Holy Spirit) and thereby, demonstrating an intelligent objectivity about the way other adults (knowledgeable in child heath) will interpret their offering as a testimony for or against, 'Christianity'.I spoke from personal testimony of having been delivered from what I hear on this recording. Others, extremely sensitive brethren, chimed in with their experience both as parents, and guardians of the souls of those whom God has entrusted to them.I accept your testimony of what you've seen in real life encounters, such as - have seen a very young child weeping her eyes out because she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart that night.but there is a problem the moment we use one example to extrapolate an entire policy or doctrine, such as you imply, here, as if by a thing having happened once, it is then to be an expected normal in the Church.'..Would we be putting an age limit to what God can & cannot use?If we would come across a donkey that can speak for the glory of God, would we say that God cannot work that way as well?It is one thing to be 'devil's advocate' when you are not going to damage anyone else by such action. It is completely different to use children for spiritual experimentation. Some of them will never find God and some of them will never recover. And those who do find God may never be as whole as they could have been, had they been nurtured with true spiritual safety in mind, from the start.
S
sermonindex
Brother TiltedHalo,Your third post (above my last), went up while I was replying to the first two.You cannot, nor I, nor anyone for that matter take scripture out of it's context to serve as a "point-maker".My brother, I would suggest the person who uses Old Testament scripture as a 'point-maker' 2000 years after the birth of the Church, has more explaining to do than the one quoting from the New Testament.When,[if] we begin to even fool ourselves into thinking that we can get a grasp on God's ways, then that will be a very dangerous thing.On the contrary, I would suggest the many New Testament exhortations to exercise the mind of Christ, deliver us from the 'fool'ishness of thinking we cannot know God, His voice, His calling, His ways, His very specific leading from minute to minute, in certain situations. I cannot claim this for another, but, I am well within the bounds of New Covenant faith to claim it for myself.Who can say that our ways are of the Lords? Who can say that we, with our finite minds, understand His ways? We can understand the things He has given us, but in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other.If you wish, please could you quote from any of my previous posts, which imply my disagreement with your claim: 'in NO WAY can we disect the mind of the Other'?I think, you have inadvertently answered your own complaint, by the preceding 'We can understand the things He has given us'.Have I claimed any more than to 'understand the things He has given us' - me in particular?
B
baruch_48
That might be the wisest and most beautifully expressed post I've ever read Compton ( I've been around the block, too )Christ in you said all that:)from Compton:You know we've begun to equate public weeping with revival so much that perhaps prayer has become a performance art. Yet couldn't someone repent without shedding a single tear? Or are emotional displays like this the measure and proof of our repentance to each other? Such orphaned anguished pleas seem more fitting for the false priests on Mt. Carmel then for little children of God. Perhaps, if there is a thing as precious and fragile as holiness...it is innocence. Let's not crush our children with the sins of the whole world and then say "my, look at those tears! I couldn't be more pleased!"Now in case some think I am against children crying out to God or repenting for their sins let me share this brief story. I have a Christian friend who recently made the mistake of traveling through Las Vegas with her 13 year old son on her way out west. She had believed the advertisements that Las Vegas had some family attractions. They only stayed a couple hours because the "family attractions" were populated with scantily clad women everywhere. Later that night, in the hotel room the young man broke down in tears to his mother. He felt his soul darkened by what he had experienced and expressed how his heart hurt over seeing sinful things that he had never seen before. These are precious tears of innocence lost that break a parents heart. This inexperience with the world is an inestimable foundation for Godly living in our children...laying the knowledge of the sins of the whole world on them is disfunctional and selfish. A childs innocence is a precious and fleeting gift that will become a keepsake to them in later spiritual battles. Remembering it's sweet taste can help break their hearts over the bitterness of sin later in life.Maybe only parents of young children, who gaurd over this precious keepsake everyday, can understand this. I just hope this type of thing is an isolated event and not a new trend in the church like barking and gold tooth fillings.MC
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baruch_48
routinize this experienceAnother key point you expressed, Compton .... christianity is good at taking something experiential ( false or true ) and holding it up as the standard or norm to be slavishly looked toi've listened with trepidation after reading all of these posts .... yet it doesn't strike me as "satanic" or demonic -- just fleshly .... stinky religious flesh ... exhibited by a kidthe hollywood soaring/swelling background music is puke, too
A
allhavsinned
Did you know ther are 17 more tracks from this compilation here:http://www.fireonthealtar.com/voices/FreedCaptive/I haven't listned to them all, it's more of the sameThe jury is still out in my decision
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saved_matt
After listening some of recordings found by allhavsinned here:www.fireonthealtar.com/voices/FreedCaptive/I am more disturbed, not only by the fact that they are on the internet but now, with more context, the nature of the recordings themselves. These children sound like they are repeating what they have been taught to say, and this worries me because it is not then coming from them but whoever has told them what to say.These kids are between 4-11 (see above link) and there calling on God to burn up every trace of sin within them!!!my opinion has turned right round i no longer agree with these recordings at all, and if anyone agrees with them please listen to the ones on the above link.matt
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moreofHim
I tried listening to a few seconds, but I couldn't. It sounds like a child who is being abused. It is quite heartbeaking.In Him, Chanin
P
Psalm118
Brothers and Sisters in the Lord; having read through these threads concerning the tapes of the Children, I am compelled to bring some light from God's word to the darkness of mere Human counsel.
I write this not to contend or to be right but to bring I hope and pray some biblical unity in the faith amongst us His dear Children.
Please take the time to prayerfully consider your views and words about others who call on the name of the LORD ALMIGHTY.
I am saddened that many of these comments are made with no scriptural backup or authority.
Christ has commanded in Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged."
He has also said in John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
and the word states
1Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Now concerning Judging lets look at Jesus Christ to clarify the matter
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
So to summarise Christ Commands Us not to Judge but He also commands us to Judge Righteously.
To Judge Righteously you must follow the example of Jesus Christ The Righteous
Which as Isaiah states is not by the sight of the eyes or by the hearing of the ears.
How then can we Judge - Only as Christ Did :-
John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Let me clarify this with averse from proverbs
Pro 16:10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment.
Christ Judged as the Father told Him to Christ was sinless and yet never Judged by the flesh. He had spiritual revelation from God before He ever said a word of Judgment therefore His mouth Transgressed not in Judgment!
I lay this as a foundation before I bring some scripture concerning the topic in discussion.
No other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid Which is Christ Jesus!
Christ said take my Yoke upon you and Learn of me. For I am meek and lowly in heart.
Christ is our example and the example for all believers whether they be children or adults.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Read Luke 2 and recognise that Christ was confounding adults with His knowledge of the scriptures, and amazed His mother Mary saying in truth I must be about my Fathers business. The Lord Jesus as the Son of Man at 12 years old is the perfect example to 12 year old believers today. Hebrews tells us that Christ prayed with tears and loud cry's.
Consider well how much the passage in Matthew 21 below is like what you hear on the tapes. How was it that young Children knew that Christ was the Son of David?
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
Mat 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
Mat 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and suckling’s thou hast perfected praise
Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
Mar 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Mar 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and suckling’s hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Now finally for now. I will add what I believe is my own personal revelation from the Holy Spirit concerning these tapes. The first girl who prays I know of a truth is praying in the Power of the Holy Spirit, I know this because the anointing of the Holy Spirit came upon me when the first word in the tape came out of her mouth. To teach me that this girls prayer was of God.
See Revelation 3 and 1John 2:20 and John 14:17, John 14:26 and
1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Throughout the rest of the recording some are anointed and some are not anointed by the Spirit of God as they pray.
Just like in any prayer meeting with adults. Some are spiritual and some may or may not be carnal.
To hear people Judging this prayer by saying things like "demonic" and "flesh" is of a great concern to me for their sakes.
I write in all meekness and sincerity
If you have any scriptural basis for disagreement; I welcome it gladly(Psa 141:5), please put your points clearly with 2 or 3 Scriptures at least to back up your words.
2Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Never form a doctrine or opinion on one scripture alone, or the devil may be involved (Mat 4).
I am sorry I have not made the post shorter, but I think the area of believers being sincerely deceived is not to be taken lightly.
I am not questioning any believers sincerity in the points they have made, however I know from experience and I'm sure you all do that a person can be sincerely wrong.
Love in Christ
David
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sermonindex
Hello David,
I have read your post carefully.
I didn't notice anything from scripture which addresses the concerns of myself and others, that these children have been schooled into this emotionally charged spiritual condition and require protection rather than any more exploitation.
Also, I have a question for you, which I hope you will be able to answer with a straight 'yes' or 'no' (if you would be so kind - no qualification or details necessary, thanks).
Have you ever been spiritually abused?
M
myfirstLove
Psalm 19:13
13 Keep back Your servant also from PRESUMPTUOUS sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
how dare we assume so much! speaking as if we know for sure when we do not have proof! where is the fear of the Lord that keeps us from such fleshly conversation? have you talked to the parents? have you spoken to the children? do you know for sure that they are abused or faking it? if not, why bring such accusations, such assumption with no proof?!
God have mercy on us. put a muzzle over our mouth from such evil speaking. help us see the deep sin of assumimg, going beyond what is right.
S
sermonindex
Mightn't you be assuming our concerns are unfounded, when we might have enough spiritual and life experience to be sounding a very valid warning?help us see the deep sin of assumimg
There is an attitude towards everything to do with children these days, which tends towards making them [b]gods
One of the most important things to understand about deception, is its subtlety, which seeks to deceive even the elect. Kids can't be expected to overwhelm [i]those
D
dohzman
I actually downloaded this and burned it and had an oppurtunity to play it to a group of about 50 saints. The effects were amazing, dead silence, deep searchings, tears, What a precious gem this sound tract is! May the Lord bless abundantly the brother or sister who made this comp., "if you give a cup of cold water, In Jesus name.....
R
roadsign
Crying is vulnerable. How many of us would like to have a video camera on us when we are in the prayer closet – and then have it set to music and shown around the world for people to gawk at. How much worse for vulnerable children!
Down the road there may be some huge lawsuits against the church as a result of this video.
I am reminded of the Dionne quintuplets, born in 1934 in a small Ontario (in Canada) town. The government took them in order to avoid exploitation. Yet they put the children on display three times a day for nine years for as many as 6,000 a day who came to watch them play behind a one-way screen. This earned millions for tourism. It seemed harmless. However, the psychological damage was irreparable.
In 1965 three surviving sisters co-authored a bitter book about their childhood, called We Were Five. In an interview, Annette Dionne blamed both Ontario officials and the Roman Catholic Church for allowing them to be treated like ``a commercial product'' In 1998 the Dione quintuplets won a $4 million settlement against the Ontario government.
Obvously many see the video as delightful, and I noticed one lady is going to present the video to a group of 2 and 3 year olds to teach them what awesome things children can do. Many find this a great “shaming” tool, to stir us to pray. But at such a cost? Is that God’s way?
This scenario did not just happen suddenly. There had to be a process of “preparation” or should I say, exposure to information or emotions that young children should not be dealing with. As I listened, I sensed anxiety, even terror in these kids.
Jesus used children as an example of simple, quiet trust. Perhaps we should stick to that.
May God soften our hearts and awaken our sensitivity to our dependants – those who cannot defend themselves.
Diane
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myfirstLove
i don't know how the prayer was taped or recorded. i cannot speak on this.
just because others may have bad experienced as a kid or never cried for the lost as a kid does not mean that every kid is like you. i know when i was elementary age i cried a lot for the lost. as a little kid i had an intense spiritual hunger more than any adult i knew. i would weep in my bedroom thinking about all i knew who were poor and oppressed. as a little kid i would cry out to a God of creation ( was a raised buddist, but knew as a child that this was not right) that i would gladly suffer that others may have life! this is for real. this was how i thought as a little kid. i was very passinate for the things i now know is in the heart of God. i had many dreams and visions as a little kid and they came to pass. now when i look back i can see the hand of God clearly upon my life since i was 4. all the kids i knew wanted to grow up and be doctors, nurses, teachers. i wanted to be a nun and know the God of creation. as a child i thought being a nun was the most spiritual thing to do and i wanted to do something that would bring me closer to God. i thought i was a weirdo because no one i knew thought like me. they wanted to be part of the world and i wanted to be not of the world. children can really have such desires. look at john the baptist. he was blessed with the Spirit from the womb. how about david, jeremiah, timothy and josiah? these were all young boys when God used them.
as a little kid i even saw i was sinful and everybody else too. i saw the need of a savior and knew and believed without being told by an adult that their is a God who can saved!
oh faithless ones have faith like children.
P
Psalm118
Hi Dorcas
Grace and Peace to you and May the Lord Bless you. I appreciate you reading my post.
I don't think I was clear that I wrote the post for the sakes of those who were in particular saying that the Children were in the flesh, and that it was potentially demonic.
Which you yourself have not said.
I understand you having concerns for children in general and their well-being both spiritually and emotionally. I am sorry to hear you yourself have a personal testimony of being abused by others in your youth. However I hope that you have now encountered the living Christ and been made "every whit whole". It's wonderful that God can save us from the worst of circumstances.
If you still have issues from the past I will be glad to pray for you to be healed completely and permanently, until the answer comes.
Now concerning the first girl on the recording - you have said this is what you had happening to you and you were delivered from it.
However the 1st girl is praying in the power of the Holy Spirit.
It is entirely biblical to pray with loud crys and tears.
Also it is biblical for young Christian children to have an advanced understanding of the Scriptures and spiritual things.
2 Timothy 3:15
And that [b]from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures
Luke 2:47
And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the [b]Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding
Hebrews 5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up [b]prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears
Jeremiah 9:1 "Called as a youth"
Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Saying you "hear something in the voices is not a biblical way of discerning that which is or is not of God."
Biblical discernment is gained in many ways.
Some of which are
1. Clear teaching of scripture
2. The voice of God
3. The anointing
4. The gift of discerning of spirits
5. dreams and visions
One method of discernment which is not in scripture is "I can hear it in the voice"
The basis I have for proof that the 1st girl praying is in the power of the Holy Spirit is her prayer is.
1 It is a scriptural way to pray.
2 The anointing of the Spirit of God has borne witness to it.
Perhaps you have not yet come into being led of the Spirit of God by the anointing.
The first 3 on my list of 5 ways to discern biblically are for all beleivers. If you lack any of the 3 it is cause for concern.
The last 2 are not necessarily given to all beleivers.
To answer your question "Have I been spiritually abused".
No
I would like to say more but you didn't want me to comment further on this subject for some reason.
On a personal note our Church worship leader was born again at 4 years old. He came under deep convition of his sinful state and fell on his knees and cried to God for mercy, and was saved.
God was the only one who gave this child the understanding of this.
On a side note I think I read people saying the children were repenting. I hear no repentance in the prayers for me it seems to be only intercession, and love to God.
I am not speaking about Children being spiritually abused in general in this thread (that is a subject which I know nothing about).
I only speak about these Children in particular.
If God had not given me clarity that the first girl was praying by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then I would not have bothered to comment on this at all.
We should all try to avoid doubtful disputations,
and let our speech always be with grace.
I have only begun to post on this website and am keen to be involved with that which is edifying and which will increase faith, love and hope.
One last thought, someone said about the children being distressed or miserable (I think). However my experience of intercession like this is that you have great joy and peace and blessing from God in your daily life. The sorrow the children were expressing was for others lost or blind condition. This kind of praying leads to greater zeal to win souls and to live a holy life - in my experience.
Love in Christ
David
C
crsschk
The basis I have for proof that the 1st girl praying is in the power of the Holy Spirit is her prayer is.1 It is a scriptural way to pray.
2 The anointing of the Spirit of God has borne witness to it.Perhaps you have not yet come into being led of the Spirit of God by the anointing.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
You are making an awful lot of assumptions here brother and frankly this is your opinion rather than a spiritual discernment if you fail to recognize that there are others here who have tarried long with the Lord.
A huge problem with all of this is in the realm of speculation.
None opinionating here were present then.
A more looming question is not whether or not these children were sincere, but that whoever felt it necessary to expose this by recording and releasing this to the general populace has their head screwed on straight.
IF this was a truly special and holy moment, it should have stayed where it was, in the confines of the setting, we shouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place.
We do not know and we will not know [u]in fact
P
Psalm118
Hi Mike
You are making an awful lot of assumptions here brother and frankly this is your opinion rather than a spiritual discernment if you fail to recognize that there are others here who have tarried long with the Lord.
I appreciate your comments and am glad to leave this matter as is now, because I do not wish to offend or cause any division.
However if you could let me know what assumptions you refer to, I would appreciate it. I am completely against any form of speculation in Christianity.
Also could you clarify what you mean by "there are others here who have tarried long with the Lord"
Also the scripture reference 1Cor 14:32-33
I don't quite understand what point you are making with it.
forgive my ignorance.
Thanks in advance
David
R
roadsign
MyFirstLove,
I really enjoyed hearing your testimony as a young child. You had a very tender sensitivity to spiritual things. My kids were a lot like that too when they were very young.
History records children’s prayer meetings – completely initiated by the children themselves. We can never doubt that from the “mouth of babes” can come deep spiritual truth.
I’m trying to listen to the recording again, and am finding that neither link that has been posted on SI works. I can only hear music. On one, the faint murmur of children (I assume) is heard momentarily. Yet, my speakers work for other audio links.
By the way, in my recent post I was responding to an earlier time of hearing it, and had assumed that it was video, because there is a picture on the link. But, thankfully, it is an audio recording. So the identity of the children are not disclosed.
I would like to know more about the circumstances surrounding this episode. I would like to know what church this happened in. Is there a link to the church? What has been the spiritual practices of the church? What is going on there? What happened afterwards? (of course long term outcome is yet to be seen)
This is important to know. There is a massive religious movement these days of emotionalism – and the erroneous tendency to equate Holy Spirit activity with every emotional experience. In other words, if it feels right, it must be right. We have seen tragic fallouts of this trend. After all, Satan can mimic the authentic quite well. He knows exactly what we're looking for.
Scripture calls us to investigate information that comes to us. We cannot accept something as authentic just because it looks spiritual according to our criteria, or even because we can justify it with some verses.
These days the Internet has become a host for all kinds of crazy stuff, including hoaxes and tampered information. There is no accountability or control as it flies through cyberspace – like a kite without a string.
Can anyone supply more information? Where does the kite sting lead us back to?
PS I am concerned about prior programming having occurred, but I suppose this may be hard to prove.
Diane
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