WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! BLOODY HANDS!

“Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’”“So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: ‘Thus you say, “If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?”’ Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’” So many people on this forum, as well as many other Christians, see a false gospel and false Jesus being cleverly preached and presented as the Truth from many of the so called “Christian“ churches today. The Lord has laid the above Scriptures strong upon my heart lately and also a frightening and unthinkable realization. I have full confidence that on the day of Judgment there will be many people who had by the grace of God seen the things which are happening to the churches in our day and failed to sound the trumpet or give warning. These people who were blessed by the grace of God with the knowledge of the Truth and failed to stand up against these false teachers and warn the deceived masses will be cast into hell with the blood of other all over their hands. I am afraid that there are many who will read this, who know what is happening to the churches today, who are willing to chat about it on their computers or with like minded people in their fellowships that have never been to their local “seeker-sensitive”, “community Christian”, “mega church” or their local “word of faith”, “prosperity gospel” church to sound the alarm who will stand before Jesus on the day of Judgment with bloody hands having known the Truth but failed to blow the trumpet or stand up and warn these people of the deception they are under and wrath of God that is about to fall upon them. I love the children of God and don’t want to see any of them cast into hell with the blood of these cleverly deceived masses on their hands. Whether they listen to us or not, is not of our concern! Whether they mock us, or laugh at us, or arrest us, or stone us, or burn us at the stake, is not of our concern! Or concern is that we have obeyed the teachings of God and out of love warned our fellow man and sounded the trumpet against the deception and lies these pour souls are under bondage to. If we interrupt their candy cotton service and tell them that their pastor is a liar and is grossly mishandling and perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can expect persecution, praise the Lord. We will be treated like our Master and those who have followed him before us, of this we can be sure. But we will stand before Jesus as good and faithful servants with hands that are clear of the blood of the so called “Christians” in our cities being welcomed into the marriage supper of the Lamb.Please ask yourself the following question with honesty and pray that God will lay upon your heart the truth to these questions.What have I done to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?What more could I have done or be doing to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?What more could I possibly do to sound the trumpet and ring the alarm?Will my hands be spotless and clear of the blood of these poor deceived souls in my city or town on the day of judgment?I pray that the Holy Spirit will drive the knife of conviction deep into the heart of those who read this and have ears that hear and eyes that see.I love the children of God and don’t want to see anyone of them cast into hell with bloody hands on the day of judgment! REPENT! Be reconciled with God for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!

This can best be accomplished only when we understand the holiness of God and his wrath as well. Without it we are merely a tinkling cymbal. To many this not square with their teddy-bear concept of God. God is so holy. We can not manipulate God. I know if I were to see Him in person now, I would fall before him because he is so great and I am nothing.ginnyrose

Breaking up a meeting is not the way to do it, brother. There are plenty of people walking around. I am a sissy when it comes to witnessing, but I still get out there and do it sometimes. Targeting people during their service makes you look unreasonable, and what we are doing is a reasonable service for Him."Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.""I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."We must reason with them.

KrispyKrittr wrote:...in which the board acted too quickly in appointing a new member to the board. Now to ask a question, if you are questioning having a RC on the board, how about taking a the question a bit further back. Is having a board biblical?Would you be as passioinate about that answer as you would be about the credentials of this RC, in regards to church matters?

I share the concerns of brother Patrick. If we truly seek God in all His Majesty, in all His Power, and in all His Glory, the Bible tells us that we will find Him. He is the great I AM. The greatest stumbling block I have found is that most Christians don’t want to open the Word and discuss it. Many are stuck in their own perception and understanding of what it is that God is saying through His Word.We are commanded to love our neighbors. Why is it that Christians defend their particular denominational doctrines? Many become very angry when you question why they believe and practice what they do. It is very difficult to even suggest that they may be wrong or believe a false teaching, because they become angry and are not willing to discuss the Word with you. The last three or so years I have attempted to contact ministries, church organizations, and para-church groups. Unless God Himself opens a door, it is impossible, because everybody is too busy or deceived, that they will refuse to talk to you. There seems to be a fair number of Christians who come to this Forum. Are you willing to read the commandments that Jesus gave us and consider to change the way you worship God, if it turns out that it differs from what you always have been told? Are you willing to seek the truth and share with others IN LOVE? If you are, I say: Praise the Lord!Because my wife and I lead church services at several retirement homes, we encounter Christians from many denominational backgrounds. There are many who will go into an eternity without Christ, because they have been sold out to denominational doctrines, not the truth. Because they are old and set in their ways, most are not able to get their thinking around the fact that what they believe is not true.My advice to all who really care: ask the Father for an opportunity to speak from His Word, led by His Holy Spirit, in the name of His Son and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them (Eph 2:10). He will provide a way if this is what He has prepared beforehand for you to do. But please ask and pray!In His Love,Hans Pranghans@thefinalcall.netThe Father’s Final Call

letsgetbusy said:Quote:“Breaking up a meeting is not the way to do it, brother. There are plenty of people walking around. I am a sissy when it comes to witnessing, but I still get out there and do it sometimes. Targeting people during their service makes you look unreasonable, and what we are doing is a reasonable service for Him.”I would have to respectfully disagree with this statement you have made. I disagree because I don’t want to see you my brother standing before Jesus on the day of Judgment with bloody hands.1. The Apostles targeted people inside and outside the temples all throughout the book of Acts. 2. If I or you are sitting in a service and the pastor is preaching a false gospel and/or a false Jesus it is our responsibility as a servants of Christ to stand up, openly and publicly confront the pastor and shut him down. If you have the Holy Spirit residing in you, it would be impossible for you to just sit their and listen to Christ be put to open shame and watch these poor souls be deceived. At very least one should stand up in the lobby or parking lot and preach the Truth. Exposing a pastor openly and publicly in front of his congregation as a liar and Scripture twister for preaching a watered down, humanistic, sappy and sugary false Jesus and gospel is not only a good thing, but again it is your responsibility as a servant of Jesus Christ.3. Would you disagree with the methods of Luther, Huss, Wycliff, Wesley, Foxe, Whitefield or Bunyan? These are the methods of open and public confrontation of which I am talking about.I want to reiterate that I speak strongly and boldly on such matters, because I love Jesus, His children and the lost and dieing souls of this world who are being deceived and lead down the road to eternal destruction with cleaver lies and enticing philosophies. One can not ever imagine the shrieks and screams of horror of those who think they are going to heaven when the Lord tells them to depart into everlasting darkness and eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. And to think that be the grace of God you were shown the truth but failed to share it with these poor deceived souls and confront the liar and demon disguised as an angel of light they called pastor.Again I plead with you to ask yourself the questions at the end of the original post with a prayerful heart asking for guidance by the Holy Spirit! Acts 18:28 28He refuted all the Jews with powerful arguments in public debate. Using the Scriptures, he explained to them, "The Messiah you are looking for is Jesus."Acts 19:8 Paul Ministers in Ephesus8Then Paul went to the synagogue and preached boldly for the next three months, arguing persuasively about the Kingdom of God. Acts 17:17 17He went to the synagogue to debate with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and he spoke daily in the public square to all who happened to be there.Acts 18:3-5 4Each Sabbath found Paul at the synagogue, trying to convince the Jews and Greeks alike.Acts 18:19 19When they arrived at the port of Ephesus, Paul left the others behind. But while he was there, he went to the synagogue to debate with the Jews. John 18:20 20Jesus replied, "What I teach is widely known, because I have preached regularly in the synagogues and the Temple. I have been heard by people everywhere, and I teach nothing in private that I have not said in public.

I have full confidence that on the day of Judgment there will be many people who had by the grace of God seen the things which are happening to the churches in our day and failed to sound the trumpet or give warning. These people who were blessed by the grace of God with the knowledge of the Truth and failed to stand up against these false teachers and warn the deceived masses will be cast into hell with the blood of other all over their hands. There is no warrant for this in the New Testament and is a leap to draw a conclusion where there is none stated. To take the example of Ezekiel out of the context and time it was written and apply it now is a wrong application. Don't miss the point. We certainly ought to warn when it is necessary to do so and as the Lord would have us speak. Surely there is a principal there but we cannot make it say what we choose to make it say.Just as well think the point is emphasized by a couple of other verses in Acts, just prior to the ones you brought forth:Act 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, Act 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. Act 16:8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.The Lord may well have you keep silent. 2. If I or you are sitting in a service and the pastor is preaching a false gospel and/or a false Jesus it is our responsibility as a servants of Christ to stand up, openly and publicly confront the pastor and shut him down. If you have the Holy Spirit residing in you, it would be impossible for you to just sit their and listen to Christ be put to open shame and watch these poor souls be deceived. Again, that is a dangerous statement to make. It is not your 'responsibility' as you state, it is the responsibility to obey what the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart in any given moment, and that very well may be to stand up and speak. But you can't make this a blanket statement covering whatever circumstances are at hand.You could end up doing more harm than good all the while feeling that you have discharged your duty and done nothing to change the hearts and minds of those you are so concerned about.Came out of much this that you speak of, it is not as cut and dried as you might think. It is very easy to get a caught up in a wrongheaded and opposite reaction:Referring back to Acts 16:Twice the Spirit checked the steps of these travelers, and then He directed them to the place of His choosing. "Forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia! This can’t be. The Bible plainly says that we should go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, so I’m going! I’ll determine where I’ll go and how I’ll get there. God himself has given me a blank check." This, almost needless to say, is a dangerous attitude.God has indeed given us a general invitation, but the specific fulfilling of it must be directed by the Holy Spirit each step of the way. So many of us are much more responsive to the Spirit when He bids us go than when He calls us to a halt. We want to go, go, go. We want to do great exploits for the Lord, preferably before the eye of the admiring masses. To be dead and hid with Christ in God is not quite as easy to receive, especially when you have been successful in establishing the churches in Asia Minor. If the Holy Spirit can shut your mouth in the very place of your greatest preaching achievements, I would say that He has possession of His vessel.What kind of spirit would lead a band of God’s men away from the continent of their proven success and point them toward a place where neither their names nor the name of their Lord had ever been heard? Many might say, "That’s not the Spirit of God. That’s the spirit of Satan trying to distract God’s servant, take him away from the field of his greatest use, and send him to some remote place where he’s going to be lost in obscurity. Macedonia? Never!"Once again, one of the key questions of these end times is raised: how can we determine whether we are being spoken to by the Spirit of God or by the spirit of the evil one? We know that Satan is a vicious counterfeiter, and that his artful attempts to imitate the voice of God have often fooled the Lord’s children. How could Paul and the others know that it was the Holy Spirit keeping them from preaching in the provinces of Asia and Bithynia, and directing them to Macedonia? They knew in the only way that men can: like Elijah before them, they were so familiar with the accents of the still small voice of God that they had not doubt Who was speaking to them.A man who has that kind of intimacy with the Lord’s voice is one who has been long processed at His hand, one who has known brokenness and the cuttings away of the flesh. It is only by going through these wilderness testings that a true and consistent sensitivity to the things of the Spirit emerges.Art KatzReality the Hope of Glory

Sorry Mike but I would have to respectively disagree.I am fully aware that no man is 100% correct in the Biblical, Scriptural and spiritual understanding, so I am open to discuss this matter and open the option that I may be wrong in my opinions on this matter. I feel that you have the same understandings as I in this matter so I look forward to the discussion. I am not afraid or to high on my own pedestal to humble myself and admit that I am wrong when I am wrong, but I have a strong burning for passion for the heart of God and stand bold and firm on His word and the things I feel that he reveals to me through the Scriptures. I do not think that sounding the trumpet in the face of the eternal wrath of God that at any second (the second of death) will fall upon these countless millions who are deceived and the deceiver who are deceiving them. If we see someone who is deceived or hear someone who is preaching deception it is our responsibility to warn them and to teach them the truth. (I will defer to the great commission)Here are some questions to ponder and pray about.1. If a pastor see a parishioner living a lifestyle of sin and says nothing about it, do not these verses of Ezekiel apply? Is not the blood of this person on that pastors hands for not giving warning?2. If you are not the pastor and see a member of the church you attend or a friend or a family member or co-worker being led astray by empty philosophies and false teachings and fail to talk to this person, is not this persons blood upon your hands?3. What current application of Ezekiel would apply in modern America? Or will no one today appear before God with bloody hands?4. What would Elijah, Elisha, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Hosea, Amos, Malachi, John the Baptist, Paul, Peter, John (the revelator), James, Jude, Luther, Huss, Wycliff, Wesley, Foxe, Whitefield, Finney or Bunyan do if they found themselves in the situation we find the church in today?I fully understand that we must be led by the Holy Spirit in everything we do, but we must not use that use that as an excuse not to preach or do as we are commanded. These are in reference to the Holy Spirit directing the Apostles as to where to go and where to preach not if they should preach. I have heard many use these same Scriptures twisted out of context to relinquish them of their Christ directed responsibility to preach the truth of the gospel to every living creature. Such as “I never shared the gospel with that person because I never felt the Holy Spirit moving me to do so.” This a cop out. You are commanded to share the Gospel and the Truth with every living creature who is in darkness and deception (whether they are in the darkness and deception of Islam, Buddhism, modern American Christianity, Hinduism, Catholicism or Atheism - what darkness and deception they are in is irrelevant - the command to preach the kingdom of heaven and the Truth of Jesus Christ remains the same) and you can not twist and pervert these Scriptures to make them mean something they were never meant to mean!I understand that at specific times the Holy Spirit say “NO - NOT HERE - NOT NOW” for this has happened to me in the past. I have gone specifically expecting to stand up and speak out and the direction of the Holy Spirit said “NO!”. This of course is the exception and not the norm, since we are commanded to stand bold and firm on the Word of God. We should always seek the guidance and direction of Holy Spirit as to were and when to speak and preach, not if we if are to speak and preach. We are already commanded to do so - we not seek the advise of the Holy Spirit as to if we are to do so, but were and when we are to do so and let the Spirit God lead us were He wants us to go. If you pray that God will lead you through His Holt Spirit were He wants you wants you preach and which pastor he wants you speak out against and what deceived souls He wants you to preach the truth to, I stand on the promises of God that He direct you were He wants you to go. There is no shortage of demonic pastors and deceived congregations, just a shortage of those willing to be lead by the Holy Spirit.I have no desire to these things of which I speak for they are directly against my personality and my flesh. I am not a sadists thirsting for persecution. I have no desire to be seen and heard, or do great things out of my own flesh, but solely to do the will of God, obey His commands and love Him and His Son with all my heart and soul. I love these people and want these people to be saved (although God has already told me they will not listen) It is terrible to see the things that are happening to the church and see no one standing up against it. If you see these things and do nothing about it, I am under the understanding that the blood of these people will be on your hands on the day of judgment. I not advocating any one go off half cocked, but pray to be lead by the Spirit of God to stand up against those who are content to put Christ to open shame again and again and again and again.Again I ask all who read this to pray to the Holy Spirit to reveal the answer to the following questions and drive the knife of conviction deep into your heart!What have I done to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?What more could I have done or be doing to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?If you were under deception wouldn’t you want someone to preach the truth and reality of Jesus to you? “Do unto others”Do you love these people enough to tell them the truth? Or are you willing to watch them go to hell and say nothing?What more could I possibly do to sound the trumpet and ring the alarm?Will my hands be spotless and clear of the blood of these poor deceived souls in my city or town on the day of judgment?Not to be redundant, but as so there is no misunderstanding I would like to restate - I am fully aware that no man is 100% correct in the Biblical, Scriptural and spiritual understanding, so I am open to discuss this matter and open the option that I may be wrong in my opinions on this matter. I feel that you (Mike) have the same understandings as I in this matter so I look forward to the discussion. I am not afraid or to high on my own pedestal to humble myself and admit that I am wrong when I am wrong, but I have a strong burning for passion for the heart of God and stand bold and firm on His word and the things I feel that he reveals to me through the Scriptures. The heart of God is burning with anger and fury and wrath for what is happen to the church today and at the same time weeping in heart break and sorrow. Mike - I am respectful of your position, understand were you are coming from, the concerns you have, your knowledge of Scripture and your heart for God and the truth. I look forward to respectful, bold and provoking discussion and debate.I love the children of God and don’t want to see anyone of them cast into hell with bloody hands on the day of judgment! REPENT! Be reconciled with God for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!

Hi Patrick,From your earlier posting again:These people who were blessed by the grace of God with the knowledge of the Truth and failed to stand up against these false teachers and warn the deceived masses will be cast into hell with the blood of other all over their hands. And again:I am under the understanding that the blood of these people will be on your hands on the day of judgment.Again, where is the scriptural warrant? And where do you get this understanding? This is what is being addressed, the going beyond what is written. This is something that is troubling as it becomes a bending or in actuality the same twisting of scripture that we might get all up in arms about when it is of a more overt nature. It is not to be didactic for arguments sake. An example would be from a recent out take from the articles archive here. In it, the preacher talked about a women who had halted at the gospel and later upon becoming sick was rejected by God (so he said) as she sought the Lord again, the justification being a wrong usage and application of Esau selling his birthright and subsequent rejection of his blessing. (Heb 12:17 - Gen 27) Just trying to bring the truth and honesty into what we are proclaiming. There is enough to deal with that we need not go beyond what is written.The problem grows worse if we are to make this an addition to "Go and make disciples...or else!" Where do we see a requirement of our blood being required, more so that we could be rejected and be cast into hell for failure to speak? Same with warning the false teachers and prophets, of course we ought to warn, that is besides the point at the moment. Am purposefully concentrating on this aspect as the want is to jump ahead and bring out the justification and then it becomes a case of pragmatism and it just slides on by. We ought not to be known for attempting to make points by skewering things a bit to make that point. Isn't this exactly the same thing we would have trouble with those who are presenting a name-it and claim-it doctrine, to marry text's together to our own liking and to buttress up whatever concoction we have developed in our minds? Surely that is not your attempt nor motivation, but a pause at this 'blood on your hands' needs to be straightened out before moving on to other aspects.

2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness (may be translated as: a deed violating the law, i.e., God’s Word).1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?Three times in the last 15 years did the Lord tell me to confront a Christian pastor about sin and wrong teaching. The last time, a few years ago, I was to publicly speak a word. I prayed the entire day before I reluctantly went to the meeting where I was to give that “word.” I begged the Lord not to have to do it, for it was in the church where I attended and I had many friends. The Lord did not remove the burden and I obeyed. The Lord has strongly impressed on my heart that the Church is under judgment. The reason why I speak so strong on prayer is that if the Lord is judging an assembly or an entire organization, by having those who attend believe a lie, I would go against Him if I would confront them. I believe that only if one prays as we read in Ezekiel 22:30, 31, as a man standing in the gap before God asking Him not to destroy the people for who we pray, He may use us to confront and allow repentance in that assembly. If we don’t stand in the gap for the people who sin, we have to be totally certain that we are following the will of God in confronting wrong teaching. If I would follow my heart, therefore I appreciate your heart brother Patrick, I would be charging against all those whose flock I have met and who don’t know the God of the Bible. People who have been fed “comfortable God loves you” stories, or were told that they would only go to heaven if they belonged to a specific church, etc., etc.We have to be called by God to speak judgment and rebuke. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Moses, Jonah, Paul, etc., were all called by God. If God doesn’t call us specifically to speak out against someone or a group of people, we may go against His will. The Bible clearly tells us that our heavenly Father will make those who don’t seek the Giver, but the gifts, or who don’t bother testing the spirits by reading His Word, believe a lie. If God is judging who are we to interfere, except to stand in the gap and pray for His mercy?In His Love,Hans Pranghans@thefinalcall.netThe Father’s Final Call

I have read all of your comments and appreciate your thoughts regarding this matter. Thank you so much for all of the thoughtfull and heart felt posts and Scriptures.Dorcas has suggested that I am taking what the Lord is telling me and applying it everyone else. She is correct in this assumption and I appreciate her pointing it out. I can understand that the Lord uses different people for different tasks. (prophet, teacher, preacher, apostle, evangelist) But we must also understand that just because you are a teacher , does not mean you never have to evangelize and so on. If you only teach but never evangelize to anyone, I feel you may not be living up to what God has called us all to do. (I hope this makes sense) Now I can realize that the harshness and ultimate totality of some of the statements I have in this warning and throughout this post are meant specifically for me and may not apply in the same sense, the same harshness or the same ultimate totality to everyone who reads this post. For this I would like to apologize and correct myself.With that being said the book of Ezekiel is so amazingly relevant to what is happening today in the church it is shocking that it wasn’t written last week, but thousands of years ago. I think it would do us all good to read through the book of Ezekiel again and learn how God wants a man of God to act in the face of such things among His people. The same is true with Jeremiah, Isaiah and the rest of the major and minor prophets. It is amazing how these last books of the Old Testament echo so exactly what is happening today. It would be a benefit for everyone to read through these books and see how God uses, instructs and expects men who are after His heart to act and behave in the face of such things. We can not forget that we must not only be hearers of the Word but doers of the Word. We have a lot of hears but very few doers. Also - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. This apply to the books major and minor prophets especially in light of how they echo the situation we find ourselves faced with in the church today. I would again call anyone who is concerned with what is going on in the church today to read the books of the major and minor prophets and see how God instructs, expects and teaches those who are after His heart to act in the face of such things.“If are in need of any type of prophet today it is the Old Testament type that we are lacking and in need of” Leonard RavenhillAgain I would like to say and thank Docus for pointing out following - I can realize that the harshness and ultimate totality of some of the statements I have made in this warning and throughout this post are meant specifically for me and may not apply in the same sense, the same harshness or the same ultimate totality to everyone who reads this post.But the questions I have asked are still applicable to everyone to some degree or another. The Holy Spirit is able to and will let you know to what degree these thing and this warning applies to you. I am sure their are many who need to asks these questions and seek guidance as to the answers from the Holy Spirit. So I make the same plea as I have made in my previous posts - PLEASE ask yourself the following question with honesty and pray that God through His Holy Spirit will lay upon your heart the truth to these questions.1. If a pastor see a parishioner living a lifestyle of sin and says nothing about it, do not these verses of Ezekiel apply? Is not the blood of this person on that pastors hands for not giving warning?2. If you are not the pastor and see a member of the church you attend or a friend or a family member or co-worker being led astray by empty philosophies and false teachings and fail to talk to this person, is not this persons blood upon your hands?3. What current application of Ezekiel would apply in modern America? Or will no one today appear before God with bloody hands?4. What would Elijah, Elisha, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Hosea, Amos, Malachi, John the Baptist, Paul, Peter, John (the revelator), James, Jude, Luther, Huss, Wycliff, Wesley, Foxe, Whitefield, Finney or Bunyan do if they found themselves in the situation we find the church in today?5. What have I done to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?6. What more could I have done or be doing to reach out to these poor souls who are under this terrible “ear tickling” deception and stand up against the “ear ticklers” who are leading them down the wide path to destruction?7. What more could I possibly do to sound the trumpet and ring the alarm? (for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and the wrath of God is poised to strike)8. Will my hands be spotless and clear of the blood of these poor deceived souls in my city or town on the day of judgment?9. If you were under deception wouldn’t you want someone to preach the truth and reality of Jesus to you? “Do unto others”10. Do you love these people enough to tell them the truth? Or are you willing to watch them go to hell and say nothing?I understand that some may disagree but I feel that one of the most un-reached segments of the population with the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the modern American “Christian”. Sure they have all heard “a gospel“, but literally millions have never heard “The Gospel”. Just because they have heard and believe “a gospel“, does that mean we shouldn’t preach to them “The Gospel”? The Lord has burdened my heart for these lost people and I apologize if I have over stated the harshness and totality of the warning I have received to include everyone. But please pray that God will reveal to you what extent it applies to you. I believe there will many on the day of judgment who stand before God with bloody hands. I just don’t want that to be you my friend.

Patrick,You are still not answering the question;Am purposefully concentrating on this aspect as the want is to jump ahead and bring out the justification and then it becomes a case of pragmatism and it just slides on by. We ought not to be known for attempting to make points by skewering things a bit to make that point.Will go ahead and catch up with you long enough to say that the bulk of what you are saying finds a ready ear and similar compulsion. If you were to do a search throughout the site you would find many similar sentiments. More than a few have come out from under a false teacher and ministry and have found an outlet here to express that.That is beside the point of the usage of the scripture from Ezekiel.Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. The answer to your statements numbered and then given the question "is not this persons blood upon your hands?" is incomplete and I would say no, in the way you are couching the terms and you still haven't produced any scriptural warrant for them.Sorry to be seemingly beating a dead dog here but there is something about our being honest with the Lord, with our Brethren and with those who we are trying to reach. If an unbeliever is to find that we are willing to nudge things at one point what would we expect them to believe of everything else we are to state?It is one thing to draw on principles and quite another to make them apply out of their context, their setting, their times. To set the record straight here, this has nothing to do with being to harsh, to not warning those who are in error, none of the things at the end of what you are saying. It has to do with just this one question:Does this verse from Ezekiel apply with it's ramifications, which are quite serious if they be true to these applications, or not? Are we justified in using scriptures in what ever manner we choose to make emphatic statements, not just drawing principles from but ipso facto statements drawn out from texts that do not pertain to this time in history. The principles behind them notwithstanding, the types and shadows, all the hermeneutics that need to be applied.2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,and their damnation slumbereth not. 2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Still in keeping with the statement of requirement, does this apply here? "...is not this persons blood upon your hands?" Sounds like it is on those who are teaching and leading others astray. And yes it is still besides the point that we should warn those who are caught up in false doctrines, if we care enough we will, but it is not correct to attach an requirement of that which was given to Ezekiel and make it apply in this way.Do a study on 'false' through the scriptures, particularly as it relates to the subject at hand. It might surprise you to find what the Lord and the apostles had to say in this regard.

Christisking said, "If I or you are sitting in a service and the pastor is preaching a false gospel and/or a false Jesus it is our responsibility as a servants of Christ to stand up, openly and publicly confront the pastor and shut him down."By whose authority do you or I have to judge? Are you so right that you can stand up and tell someone "you are wrong!" especially publically? Jesus said that we should approach a brother in private if he sins against us, not public.In Psalms 37, it says not to worry about evildoers but rather to wait on the Lord. In Romans 12:17, Paul says to never pay evil back with evil. According to the bible, the Lord said, "Vengeance is Mine!" (Deuteronomy 32:35; Romans 12:19, Hebrews 10:30). The bible also says:James 4:11 (NASB)11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor? Obviously, the first thing someone might say, "But they are not our brethren." How do you know? Are you the judge? For you to say someone is not Christian is to judge them. Rather, I would be careful who I reproached publicly, because this is the ways of the enemy. The enemy likes to put people on public display so that when they fall, they are made right in the eyes of others. If you truly walked in goodness, you would have no desire to publicly humiliate someone. Rather, you would do just what Jesus says, and do it in private. You would not fear thier evil teachings, because you would trust in God as Psalms 37 says to do. You would not worry about the evil ways of the Devil because you know that God is Almighty and he will have his vengeance. Good always prevails over evil. Does it not?I am not saying we should not expose frauds. Ephesians 5:11 says we should reprove evil. However, this does not mean paying evil with evil. The only way to expose evil is to show our goodness for darkness cannot prevail in light. Let our good deeds stand as a beacon and lighthouse admist darkness. Evil will be exposed when people discover it leads to suffering and death. When they see the light shining in us, they will become interested and say, "There is something humble and loving about these people. I want to know more." However, if they see us stand up and condemn false teachers, they will only think, "Look at those arrogant and disrespectful people. Who do they think they are to say this teacher is wrong?" Instantly, our own message is discredited by such an action and the whole purpose of exposing the lies and deception is lost.Christ is Lord. Let us trust in Him.In love,Blake

quote: If we interrupt their candy cotton service and tell them that their pastor is a liar and is grossly mishandling and perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ, we can expect persecution, praise the Lord.That is a serious charge. Are we judge, jury or executioner? Or all three? While I can appreciate you zeal for truth, your lack of restraint scares me. I totally agree with what Blake said about addressing the pastor in private first. There would have to be zero doubt in my mind that God was directing me to publicly challenge a pastor before I would act in such a manner. ie...an audible voice. ;-) Especially, initially. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but from your post it sounds as if you are going from church to church and seeking out erroneous teaching so you can expose it. It may be one thing to recognize wrong teaching in a ministry that you may be a part of and have a bigger picture but to go into a ministry that you know nothing about and challenge what is being taught is a serious thing. You would not be privy to details of the lives of the sheep in that local body, what they are going through and how the Holy Spirit is moving and ministering to that local body. What you hear in any one message may be taken out of context, just like we often do with scriptures. Sheep have to be led and discipled. I am sure that cleaning up sheep dung week in and week out is not an easy job. No man has a 100 percent correct doctrine or theology. Even the great men of God that we listen to and discuss here on SI do not agree on all points.I am not saying there are not false teachers, the Word makes that point clear. Neither am I saying God has not appointed you as a watchman or to expose them. I am just saying this is a serious matter and should definately be approached with much prayer and fasting. If you are wrong and publicly criticize what may actually be ordained and established by God, that too will stand under God's judgement.Hope

Thanks for the warning Grannie - sounds like I'm gonna be in trouble - praise God! :-P

MikeI would have to respectfully disagree with you Brother Mike. I feel that this is not at all a misapplication and applies directly to the time in which are living today. A study of the entire book of Ezekiel should clear up any misunderstanding you have concerning this matter. Pay close attention to Chapter 13 and how it applies to the rest of the book. If you see the judgment of God approaching and fail to sound the alarm, you my friend, will have bloody hands on the day of judgment, according my understanding of what the Scriptures teach. You are welcome to disagree, but again I would suggest a study of the entire Chapter of Ezekiel so you can speak in full contextual meaning. The rest of the Bible bears this out . Every prophet and apostle, without exception, in the entire Bible speaks out against false prophets and teachers. (this includes Jesus) We also see that Paul instructs Timothy to COMMAND those teaching false doctrine to stop. We see this over and over and over throughout the entire Bible. I have done numerous studies on “false” and what the Bible teaches concerning the subject. I would also like to suggest to you as you have to suggested to me, that you do the same study, for I also feel you may be very surprised at what the Scriptures teach concerning the subject of what is “false“ and how it is to be handled. Biblegateway.com is good place to search the what the Bible has to say regarding a certain subject. But we must be extra careful when using such programs to look at the verses in full context and not twist them to make them mean what we want them to mean.The blood of the deceived are absolutely on the hands of the deceiver. This is not of issue. But their blood is also on the hands of those who fail to sound the alarm.If I am misunderstanding what you are saying regarding this matter, I apologize. But from what I think you are trying to say, I feel you are wrong in you assumptions and interpretations.If you feel that I am misunderstanding what you are try say maybe if you answer the following question might help put us back on track and better understand each other. What current application of Ezekiel would apply in modern America? Or will no one today appear before God with bloody hands?I have no wish to argue on these threads trying to prove my point of view right - as you can easily see through my posting history. But I do stand bold on the Word of God and search for the Biblical Truth. I am not interested in an endless back and forth and mean no disrespect in my disagreement with you on this issue.

Beenblake, Quote:“Jesus said that we should approach a brother in private if he sins against us, not public.”This is talking about personal offense not false doctrine or false teaching. Never once did Jesus take the Pharisees aside and speak with them in private. No, He openly and publicly rebuked them. Never once is false teaching and false doctrine dealt with behind closed doors and in private in the entire Bible. This type of thinking is perpetuated by false teachers who don’t want to be publicly exposed, but is completely un-Biblical and against what Scripture teaches. This not how Paul dealt with Peter. Also we are already told that most will not listen. This is what God told Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah and we should expect nothing less. Have you done a complete study of the major and minor prophets? Here are some Scriptures for you to consider. Please make sure you understand these Scripture in context.Come to your senses and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don't even know God. 1 Cor 15:34Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 1 Tim 5:20It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you 1 Cor 5:12-13People who wink at wrong cause trouble, but a bold reproof promotes peace. Proverbs 10:10But blessings are showered on those who convict the guilty. Proverbs 24:25Rebuke them as sternly as necessary to make them strong in the faith. Titus 1:13I am warning you! If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. Lev. 19-17A single rebuke does more for a person of understanding than a hundred lashes on the back of a fool. Proverbs 17:10An open rebuke is better than hidden love! Proverbs 27:5He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue. Proverbs 28:23

Hope,Please don’t misunderstand what I am talking about. I am not talking about flying off the handle half cocked at the slightest word one may disagree with. This type of action would be silly and foolish and would not line up with Scripture. With that being said, It is easier to find a Church that is preaching blatant lies, false doctrine, a false gospel and a false Jesus than it is to find one preaching the Truth. If the Lord has lead you to one of these common modern churches where humanistic, sugary sweet falsehoods and lies are being preached week after week, then I believe to stand up against he false preacher and speak the Truth of God would be more than appropriate. Bear in mind these type of churches are the norm now a days and not the exception.

I have my doubts if you will understand what I am saying, but I'll give it go.Its like going to an astrology meeting and standing up in the middle of the meeting and declaring, youre wrong and youre all going to hell. They may just get you arrested or worse.Like Annie has said they are sitting there of their own free choice.You mentioned Jesus rebuking the pharisees, from what I can recall it never happened in the synagogue. Its a matter of respect for human dignity. If you don't like it leave, simple.But if God has given you the burden to do so, because God told some to do some strange things, then let it be done with a broken heart.p.s. I think you had better look at that list of yours and look at the context of whom was being spoken to.

1. If a pastor see a parishioner living a lifestyle of sin and says nothing about it, do not these verses of Ezekiel apply? Is not the blood of this person on that pastors hands for not giving warning?2. If you are not the pastor and see a member of the church you attend or a friend or a family member or co-worker being led astray by empty philosophies and false teachings and fail to talk to this person, is not this persons blood upon your hands?3. What current application of Ezekiel would apply in modern America? Or will no one today appear before God with bloody hands?4. What would Elijah, Elisha, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Hosea, Amos, Malachi, John the Baptist, ... (the quotation continues)PatrickI have deliberately shortened your quotation (temporarily) to make my point. You seem to have a model in your mind which is essentially Old Testament. Even your comments about pastors and parishioners continues much the same theme. The context you are referencing is of a people duly constituted as the people of God with duly constituted officers. This is church and state united, as was the context of the OT from Exodus. In the church/state of Israel their pastors (kings) and prophets and priests were all part of God's economy and provision for an earthly scene.Israel and its land belonged to God and he faithfully sent his messengers again and again to demand was what his by right. Jer. 7:25 (KJVS)Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: “Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.” (Matt. 21:33-37)In the time of Christ he himself took strong and public action in relation to the temple on two separate occasions; this was still State/church combined. In Matt. 23:38 Christ disowns the state/church of Israel; "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. " It is surely significant that neither the early church nor Paul ever denounced the Temple officers in the way that Christ did. Christ interrupted key priestly ceremonials and called attention to himself, but the apostles never did this.There is a remarkable comment in Acts 19 where the town clerk declares “And the townclerk, having quieted the crowd, said, Ephesians, what man is there then who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple-keeper of Artemis the great, and of the [image] which fell down from heaven? These things therefore being undeniable, it is necessary that ye should be calm and do nothing headlong. For ye have brought these men, [who are] neither temple-plunderers, nor speak injuriously of your goddess.” (Acts 19:35-37, DRBY) If you have ever seen the representations of Artemis in Ephesus and the pornographic statuory of both male and female that come from this era, the claim is all the more remarkable.Paul's response to final opposition in the synagogues seems to have been to separate the believers ratherthan to publicly arraign the officers. (Acts 18:7ff 19:9ff)...Paul, Peter, John (the revelator), James, Jude, Luther, Huss, Wycliff, Wesley, Foxe, Whitefield, Finney or Bunyan do if they found themselves in the situation we find the church in today? (completed quotation) From this list I only know one who disrupted 'church services' and that was George Fox. He is one of my all time heroes but I would not endorse all his doings.The assumption that you are making is that God's relationship to a local church or to the 'church' of a particular era is the same as that of God to Israel in its church/state era. This is a wrong assumption and the cause of much mistaken theology. It also assumes that anything which chooses to call itself a 'church' is one; this is also a dangerous presumption. Organisations are not always what they claim to be. I would caution you against taking your precedents from God's state/church dealings with Israel.Although I have stronlgy protested to 'pastors' in the foyer after the service on occasion. My wife grows wary of our holiday visits to the local churches. :-?

Although I have stronlgy protested to 'pastors' in the foyer after the service on occasion. My wife grows wary of our holiday visits to the local churchesI seem to recall that George Fox would often wait until the services were over also to speak to the people. Was there not a 'opportunity' to speak if you wished after the minister preached?I have personally been in a service where the minister was called down from the crowd. The minister said at the end of his message, "Now if you will just pray this 30 second prayer and believe it with all your heart you will be saved." A young man in the back stood strait up on the bench and declared the prayer to be a falsehood and commenced to telling the people that they were to surrender all and follow Jesus Christ. After the service the pastor threatened to have him arrested. I still don't know how to think about what happened. There were seasoned ministers there. One who was a dean of a pentecostal bible college was actually rebuking the devil in the young man. I never seen such confusion and madness. I know God is not the author of confusion. This much I know, no amount of teaching and preaching and rebuking has stopped the powers that be from praying the sinners prayer. I have personally placed myself in jeopardy many times in the last 2 years over trying to press for a biblically based salvation message everywhere I go to minister. Friends have abandoned me and others keep a 'safe distance.' I think all of hell itself comes to stop a real Gospel presentation.If you preach the need for a biblically based message as far as content (born again experience, etc.) that is rejected. If you minister justification, repentance, regeneration, sanctification, etc.; that is rejected. If you call for a need for a God-consciousness and a need for a great move of God that is rejected. If you demonstrate that things have been going down hill since Moody in the plainest of arithmatic, that will get you stoned. So what is a person to do? Well, just keep on putting on your fire suit, helmet, and boots; grab you axe, run into the burning and pluck them from the fire. Keep running in and running in saving as many as can be saved until they throw you out.

Hi dorcas,One consolation I received in the midst of my despair. Last night I had ministered a message God had given me last year called "Just a Little Bit of Egypt." It was an offshoot of one of Ron Bailey's Abraham My Friend devotionals. I talked about how a lukewarm church is killing our children and how compromise in the house has cut down the unction. Adults may live a mundane Christian life and 'make it'. But our children and new converts cannot survive in a lukewarm atmosphere. Lot traded his children and posterity for a 'little bit of Egypt'. I felt the message went over like a lead balloon. I was ready to just fall down into my bed and try to sleep off the vexation.Then the phone rang about 9:00 PM and a woman was crying on the other end. She told me that a lady had come to the meeting with her that had not been close to God since she was a little child. The woman was under tremendous conviction and said that she had not imagined she had drifted so far from God. She came to the altar in repentance and left with great joy in her voice and on her countenance. It was then that I realized that the fire of persecution was really the enemy. He knew that that woman was there and God was dealing with her. She was near 60 years old. And God did a work. Beloved, it will be worth it all to obey God. Just seek God and minister what He lays on your heart in love and compassion.

The twists and turns that a posting can take! Sometimes it gets too far away from the original intent and loses steam... other times it develops into just an incredible blessing to all.But first the bad news...Beenblake, this will not be tolerated here. Period.Ron, thank you for better expressing that which I have not the sufficient knowledge of properly expressing, that of a more complete understanding of how things were ordered in the Old Testament setting. Patrick, this is all that I was trying to convey and still find myself misapplying things often enough... Perhaps another way of looking at this is..., Are we under threat or do we do what we do because of the love shed abroad in our hearts? If the latter be so, what need of threat to compel us onward? Problem is, now I am doing the same thing in a sense, giving reason. What I was looking for was a scriptural warrant from the New Testament that would lay more than the responsibility but the ultimate judgment that you speak of, that their blood is on our hands and believe you went as far as to have 'us' cast into hell along with them. It is just not there and frankly nor is it needed. The jump is in bypassing this to get on to what you want to convey... But isn't this precisely where error starts to propagate, with a shrug and a "well... the point is still that..etc. etc" Isn't this pragmatism? The ends justify the means?Moving on to the 'ends', that which Robert shared. Thanks brother! Patrick, it would not be a stretch to state that the majority of us agree with what you have in mind when it comes to these things, tactically speaking some disagreement, but the deception and false teaching, again, there is a lot of history here on this site if you were to search through it. Only advocating that it is unnecessary to add to it.Perhaps what may be troubling to some is the perception of projecting that which should be done before the fact. Situations and circumstances being dictated before hand. The example given by Robert of the gentleman standing up and speaking up... would you not have to be there to understand if it was directed by the Holy Spirit or was a product of the flesh? Believe me, with a backwords glance at the times I was sitting under false teaching and without understanding completely why the compulsion to do exactly the same, how many times I could have made a scene, how vexed I felt over it and not understanding at that time what to do stayed silent or just got up and walked out. At other times just the body language was enough to convey the absolute disgust and grief that I was feeling and surely heard about it later from those who couldn't see it. Hindsight being what it is, most assuredly knowing what I do know without a doubt with the leading of the Holy Spirit would have gladly been made a fool, a reproach, a humiliating embarrassment irregardless, not because of anything other than to hear my Lord trampled underfoot by the flippant things coming out of the mouths of some. It is a wonder that in those times I did not literally throw up right in the midst of the service ... the story's I could tell.

Thanks for posting this Annie.At the Church I go to, I feel like just half of the Gospel is being preached, and I come Home and listen to some of the Sermons on SI.Will leave this Church' when and if God leads me out.Most of the Pastors in the Mega Churches, {not all Of them} only care about money and control of the people.They also show respect of persons, and the Bible says we are not to do this.Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.I just want all of God's Truth, and if my toes have to be stepped on, then so be it.I want to grow in Love and Knowledge of Jesus Christ. :-)

Dear Krispy,You are correct. I am a hypocrite. I am completely and totally wrong about everything. I am a sinner and a bad person whose only hope is the grace that Christ gives. I will not deny it. Even though I follow Christ, I still stumble. If anyone needs a savior, it is I. What I said to you was given unto me in confidence by Christ. I stand by that.Krispy, I will apologize for my err, if I have made one. However, if I have, then prove me wrong, please. Declare publicly in front of all that Christ is your Lord. Say it loudly: "Jesus Christ is Lord!" If you do, I will apologize, take back everything I have ever said, and walk away wearing the full title of "false teacher." Blake

Perhaps the ability to prove you wrong is only in having you read your own comments. You are pushing the borders of patience here...

Dear Steve,I apologize for judging you. I have no place. I have been told that I offer a pride that I do not see. It is probably true. I will say it again, I am not perfect. However, I am not asking anyone to follow me, believe me, or even trust me. I am faulty. My whole message is this: follow Jesus.I must tell you a story. My best friend that I have known since High School was raised Christian. When he was 13, he had an experience where he felt God proved Himself true. Since then, he had believed in God and accepted the title of Christian. He also believed in the bible and believed that Jesus lived and died. For many years, I had thought he was a Christian, even though I had not been. And even still, he was not truly a Christian. Last year, Christ saved him. I asked him, just tonight actually, when was the first time he had believed in God. He said at age 13. I then asked him when he first accepted Christ as his Lord and God. He said that was last year. It is not my place to say whether you are Christian or not. It is not my place to judge. However, it is my job to warn you, as a watchman, of the coming peril. From what I have seen, you have a strong faith in God and the bible. You are ready and willing to stand and fight for both at great costs. However, the real question is do you believe that Jesus is your Lord and savoir? If you cannot answer yes to that question, then please, consider what I have said. Please, give yourself to Jesus. In Romans, Paul gave us advice on how we can determine if a man is from God or not. He said this:1 Corinthians 12:3 (KJV)Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.In Romans, Paul said:Romans 10:9 (KJV)That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Lastly:Philippians 2:9-10 (KJV)9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;I wish and pray my friend that you would do just as it says in Romans. For there is no greater desire in my heart than to see someone saved. My heart is only filled with love. To judge you is wrong. However, to let you die without Jesus would be even worse.In Christ,Blake

We as members, have the right to "try all things" also, and I'd call these two posts above a 'tormenting spirit' at work.Can I exercise my 'right' and ask what a 'tormenting spirit' is?

If I might interject here that Paul was very cautious to deal with this woman and I think also here- we should follow his example. Lets look at the passage:A certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. (Acts 16)So why did Paul wait while she did this many days? Could it be that sometimes it is difficult to discern the behavior of people at times? Scripture can take us just so far in discernment and after that we must have the Holy Spirit and the gift of discernment to recognise whether the person has or has not a devil.I am reading these posts looking at a group of people trying to 'discern' one another. The one is asking Krispy to say "Jesus is Lord" as an affirmation that he has the Holy Spirit and he gives the traditional proof text. That is countered with proofs that even the enemy can say the right things, etc. I am convinced it unlikely we can discern a whole lot through these forums. I have pegged individuals as being wolves in sheep clothing and listened a while longer and found out it was all a massive misunderstanding.A few weeks ago I was in a situation in a house meeting where a lady came in and began trying to take over the service. She passed out songbooks and began suggesting songs as though she was 'on fire' for God. This went over the top and things did not seem right at all. Then she was interrupting during the message bringing in all sorts of distracting remarks that dealt with politics and the like. I had to ask her to wait till the end of the service. From there things took a trip for the surreal. I left the service after nearly rebuking her and calling out a demon. Yet, I had not spent enough time to know for sure. It could have been a number of things. What if I had turned to the woman and said, "I command you in the name of Christ to come out of this woman!"-- and nothing happened. Not because of lack of power (because that could certainly be a problem)- but because I had not rightly DISCERNED what happened. You will find that generally in the New Testament there was evidence when the spirit went out. With Legion they went into the swine and they fled down a hill as proof to the people that his 'problem' was, in fact, DEMONS. Then he was clothed and in his right mind. The woman in our text also showed proof of her deliverance because she could no longer practice. The point being is that sometimes we need to just put our guns down for a second. I recall a situation once where a group of mafia members were seated around a round table. Things got bad and they jumped up with a pistol in each hand and with their arms crossed and had a gun on each other criss crossed around the table. It was an amusing sight really.What do you say everybody take a deep breath- blow it out slowly- and reason together without accusation and unwarranted suspicion?

Hi GrannieAnnie,I understand. I just want to sift through everything to make sure we don't prematurely pull any triggers. ;-) It may give those in question a chance to come around. Sometimes people will argue knowing they are defeated. It is good to allow them an escape route out of the situation. God Bless,-Robert

*Edit: For clarification the following quote is from Beenblake;My heart is only filled with love. To judge you is wrong. However, to let you die without Jesus would be even worse.This is a repetitive theme. For the record I was the one to bring forth the question of pride. Being that this has been brought forward publicly and continues before the sight of all I will only ask now that prayer be brought forth to this brother.I had asked that you either make amends by apology both privately and publicly without qualification to this serious charge you are leveling at a brother that you do not know in the slightest sense unless you have some hidden knowledge that is not forthcoming. Evidence of which this charge you have brought forth neither qualification nor reason nor scripture nor substance of any sort.To speculate as to just what it is that prompts you is of no consequence. It is enough to wonder at your earlier attempts at arguing over the scriptures being the word of God in such a fashion as to mean nothing but argument for arguments sake, a discourse in disputing that which was never in dispute to begin with. This is along the same lines, that you posses a superior knowledge unavailable to the rest of the Brethren here, that (in your mind) the Lord has sent you to save the day, save this poor soul who only 'thinks' he knows the Lord and to the rest that have challenged you, this, in your mind confirms your suspicion that opposition solidifies your thinking, "I therefore am correct in my presumptions" when in fact you are in great disillusion.If this is all a bit too harsh to stomach, consider once again the charges you are leveling, consider the amount of pride required to allow such words to flow effortlessly from your lips before your own Brethren, many who have walked obviously much further down this road then yourself. This was also asked of you time and again as to your background, your longevity in the faith and so forth. To have an expectation that your words are to be accepted without qualification would be to set the whole charge of a Berean mindset to the dustbin.Who do you think you are? The audacious charge that you are bringing is begging it's own quantification to the bearer of the words. It is time to turn it on it's head and redirect it back to yourself, I will not do so.There is an appreciation and a similar sense of want of explanation and thus a patience just as it was well put by Robert, it is in that very spirit that a holding off has been in place.But it is the end of the rope here. Either you come forth with answers and a true repentance to this unqualified charge making amends or you must therefore leave. This decision is your own to make or we will make it for you. Enough is enough.

But if one goes after the spirit of another ... that is a spiritual attack, and can become a 'tormenting' type attack on the person who is the victim of such.So this would not be a 'tormenting spirit' in the sense of a demonic attack from such an entity? Who decides if the one is 'going after the spirit of another'? The reason I raise this is that to 'discern' such a spirit in the thread would be pretty much the equivalent of saying 'thus saith the Lord' and the latter is strongly discouraged by the moderators on SI.I note that Paul's discernment in Acts 16 was followed by his authoratitive exorcism of the spirit. Discernment, in such a case, would always be the precursor to deliverance, it seems.

Hi All,Grannie Annie wrote: So sometimes, discerning of spirits, may not always indicate the discerning of 'demons', and may just be a general discerning of the spirit of the person by "the fruit" of what they have brought, hence forth, to the atmosphere of the environment.I have heard this throughout the years and really have never been able to understand what is being said. I think I have an idea, but wondered what the biblical bases of it is. Sometimes folk who try to bring a word of repentance in churches are said to have a 'wounded' or a 'bad' spirit and that they are ministering from their woundedness. This may be the topic of a different thread, but how does this play out?

Is it too prideful for me to say that Jesus Christ is my Lord? Is it arrogant for me to admit publicly before everyone that I am a servant of the most High God? Is it even wrong of me to take such compassion upon a soul so as to stick my own neck on the line in order to deliver this soul a message? To be prideful is to say that I am better than someone else. I am not saying I am better. Never once did I say I was better than anyone. I have repeatedly said I was worthless, wrong, and nothing. How many times must I say this? What do you want from me? If you want my credentials, I will give them to you. I am a Christian. I am a follower of Christ. I am not perfect by any measure. I am a sinner saved by grace. Jesus Christ has appointed me this task upon me. I did not judge Krispy. For if I did, then why would anyone care? I am nothing. Why would any of you worry about my judgement? Why would Krispy be so fearful of what I say? He would just laugh me off. If someone asked me to declare my faith, I would not hestitate to do it. Would you not also? Christ is convicting Krispy. Can you not see? Why do you think he's so defensive whenever God sends his people to speak to him? I have read many posts in the archives on SermonIndex of God's people sent to speak to Krispy. They have been generous loving and kind. He bucks them like a horse. Jesus is trying to reach out to him. He is trying to bring this fighting stubborn man to submission so as to add him to His team. I am sorry it has had to come to this. I really am. I have prayed many times over all this. I have given my every will unto the Lord. I have asked Jesus that I not be assigned this task. However, I am also His servant and I must do His will. Look, this isn't about me looking good. What have I to gain? Really. I have already given all the credit to the Lord. I have already made myself look horrible. I have apologized and made myself look foolish. What more do you want me to do? I am not an experienced wise old Christian who has been through many years of delicate training. No, I am likened to a shepard boy who is trying to kill a giant with a sling shot. I have only been saved a short time. I do not have a degree. I have not read mountains of books, have not walked along side the greatest Christians of our day. I have nothing, except for Christ. All I have is my Lord Jesus. I don't care if anyone believes me. Really I don't. It won't help anyone here accept Steve. This is about his life. Jesus is reaching out to him. He is trying to reach out to Steve and has been for a long time. However, he is too stubborn to listen. He is a fighter with a strong will. Is it any wonder that Christ would go to such extreme measures to call unto him? He doesn't realize the future God has waiting for him. I believe in all my heart that Jesus will do great things with Steve. However, it can't happen until he accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior. All of you can go ahead with your business and let this one slip through the cracks. Do you think it's any coincidence this has all transpired in a topic labeled "Warning! Warning! Warning! Bloody Hands!"??? Do you not see what God is trying to do here?Krispy, If I am tormenting you, I am sorry. I mean that with the deepest part of my heart. I am being sincere. Jesus is trying to reach out to you. I know you feel him calling out to you. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Jesus is Lord. They do not believe Jesus is God. They say the trinity is false. I should know. I was raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses. All of my life, I lived a lie. I prayed to God every night thinking that I knew God. However, inside something felt terribly wrong. I used to get into great debates with others proving to them Jesus was not God. Little did I know how decieved I was. It took a room of 40 Christians debating and arguing with me, and the power of the Holy Spirit to bring me to my knees. I said to them all, "Who do you think you are to tell me your going to Heaven?" I will never forget the moment Jesus came to me. At the alter I listened to everyone's prayers and thought they were all nuts. I even fought Christ until finally I let go. I prayed to Jesus and He came to me. I broke down and gave my life to Him. Since that moment, He has changed my life. This is but a brief summary of my testimony. I will post the rest later if they don't kick me off the site. I can't force you to give your life to Christ, and I am not trying to do that. I am delivering a message. Christ wants to be your God. Do you understand what that means? It means giving your all to Christ. It means that He is Lord of your life. It means having faith in Him, and faith is nothing more than trust. Trust in Jesus. Pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and most importantly, seek forgiveness from Jesus. Jesus is offering grace. A Christian is not a Christian by thier works. It is true that the fruit a person bears is an indication of thier heart, however, it isn't always. How can we judge a person's true motives? They may do good things, but do not have Christ. Christians sin all the time. Does that mean they don't have Christ? Besides, if we were saved by our good deeds, then who could enter Heaven? Who has never sinned? Even you have sinned, haven't you? Christ came so that all who believed in Him may have everlasting life. What does that mean? Is it good enough to just say I believe Jesus lived and died? No, for even the devil believes in God and believes Jesus lived and died. We must accept Jesus as our Lord and God. If we believe this, if we truly believe Jesus is God, won't we worship Him? If Jesus is God and has all the power and authority over earth, if we truly believe this, then we will fall on our knees and call out to Jesus. We will call to Him for help, to forgive our sins, to make us new. We will give ourselves over to His authority and power. We will make Jesus our King.If you will not listen, then there is nothing more that I can do. I think the moderator is correct. Enough is enough. Therefore, I leave this in your hands. If you ask me to leave you alone, I will not say another word to you. And if the moderators ask me to leave, I will do so. If you have any questions, I will answer them in complete honesty. I am trying to help you, not hurt you. In love,Sincerely,Blake

So instead I determined to just frustrate beenblake and let him hang himself....and he has done a fine job. :-?

Robert you quoted Annie...o sometimes, discerning of spirits, may not always indicate the discerning of 'demons', and may just be a general discerning of the spirit of the person by "the fruit" of what they have brought, hence forth, to the atmosphere of the environment. I have to say I don't believe in this kind of discernment of spirits. The 'spirit of the person' is not a biblical expression and I don't see anything to indicate that this expression in 1 Corinthians 12:10 is anything other that the 'identification of spirits'. The word 'diakriseis' really signifies the discernment or identification of one thing rather than another. It seems to me that the 1 Corinthians passage has origin/identity in mind rather than character.

Hi Ron,The 'spirit of the person' is not a biblical expression and I don't see anything to indicate that this expression in 1 Corinthians 12:10 is anything other that the 'identification of spirits'. The word 'diakriseis' really signifies the discernment or identification of one thing rather than another. It seems to me that the 1 Corinthians passage has origin/identity in mind rather than character.I notice that our Lord said to the disciple, "You know not what manor of spirit you are of". (Luke 9:55)The NLT reads,and having turned, he rebuked them, and said, 'Ye have not known of what spirit ye are; This seems to indicate that they were unaware that the Holy Spirit would not have called forth their recommendation to call down fire? Could this be a simple misunderstanding of the nature of the fruit of the Spirit? In Pentecostal circles some may have said, "He must have yielded to a evil spirit" and said that. But could the whole concept have been really just his own imaginations playing out through his apparent anger?

Hi Blake,Thank yo for helping us all gain a bit of understanding from your background, very helpful. And to help ease the prior suppositions that you had about revealing your past and if you are willing think there is a possibility that we can help you and you us here.There is no reason to use your upbringing against you and hope you can understand that the possibility may be that some of this is still residing in your thinking but perhaps below the surface.You mentioned;I am not an experienced wise old Christian who has been through many years of delicate training. No, I am likened to a shepard boy who is trying to kill a giant with a sling shot. I have only been saved a short time. Blake, that is a very helpful an honest admission. Longevity does not always equate with spiritual maturity nor does a new found believer have an instant discernment in general. Of course there are exceptions, but you must realize that the scope of saints here covers a lot of territory. We have seen teenagers with just an incredible grasp of this walk and of the Lord as well as staunch, hard, cold legalists and downright ugly, divisive believers come through here.Now by this addmission of being saved only a short time would it not make sense that similar to those 40 some odd Christians attempting to reason with you is replaying a bit of history here? No one is interested in winning an argument, that is not what we are after here. The bulk of this site is to train up the saints in the Lord in all it's vast resources and the members are by far and large willing to be of help to each other to that end.Part of this walk brother is to accept our place as we in fact are and that involves a humbling of ourselves before each other, first to the Lord. One of the greatest leasons to be learned is to consider what our own Brethren are saying to each other and that often takes time to be pondered on, not in a quick agreement and then moving on. Just as well we do hold the scriptures in high esteem but not for the reasons already covered elsewhere here. Meaning, that what is conveyed and meant, most importantly to the heart of the matter, for that is where the matter is.So I think you would find a ready audience to give and take and share here if you were but willing. But we must settle this one issue before going forward.Steve our dear brother has been something of a lightning rod for any number of things. He has a great zeal for Gods people especially those who have been caught up in false doctrines such as The Word of Faith movement and it's similar outshoots, both he and myself have come out from under this heretical teaching. Expression doesn't always translate well here when we have many different writers with varying degrees of skill in writing and expressing their hearts, so there is much foreberance and want of further explanation to clarify things. Krispy is a loving father, a coach and has humbled himself here when exhorted like very few that we have seen. He bore his heart for all to see and I will tell you emphetically that in that heart lives the Lord Jesus Christ.Blake, you are just wrong here. We must settle this now to go forward. Would love to have you come alongside us all to share and learn and grow.But the alternative remains sadly if you cannot reconcile this in your heart and in your mind.Once again leave it to you to decide.Mike

I notice that our Lord said to the disciple, "You know not what manor of spirit you are of". (Luke 9:55)The NLT reads,and having turned, he rebuked them, and said, 'Ye have not known of what spirit ye are; I think that is a valid challenge to what I posted. However, the language 'ye are of your father the devil' comes to mind. This was a different kind of discernment not based on revelation but on the simple testimony of their lives which showed they were not of the Spirit that He was 'of'.This is not the 'discerning' of a personal disposition but a simple statement of truth based on the evidence that was plainly before him/them. I think with this passage of scripture we have to take our interpretation from the plainer uses of the word spirit. I know our modern usage is to refer to someone's spirit in terms of their disposition, but I don't think the scriptures do so.I think the interpretation of the passage will, to some extent, be determined by views of the time of the disciples' regeneration etc.

AnniePhilo, I wonder if I could ever convince you, that you don't know it all. Long before you joined us on the site one of my signs offs was 'WKIP' - we know in part. Only teenagers and young pastors know everything. You are not the only grandparent on this site. The older I get the more I realise I don't know, but some things I have learned and these I pass on as I am able.I'd also give warning to anyone who does try to stand by my side someday, to defend whatever I say ...or you'll be targeted next ... so you may want to let me stand alone, to avoid the targeting. I think you are beginning to show signs of paranoia.Poor Krispy has had his time of late, and all you can do, is what you've done with me from the beginning.Why didn't you defend Krispy instead ? I have no idea what this means. Krispy is an old friend of mine and I would never attack him. I challenge his thinking from time to time and where I can add little bits of information that I may have picked up from time to time. I have a very strong affection for him.If you don't understand those things, it's because maybe you haven't been used in those gifts.I'll pray you get a taste of those gifts shortly and in a big way ... then you'll understand where I come from. These comments are sheer presumptions and you are as wrong here as in every other judgement you have ever made about me. You do make the most outrageous assertions and I do begin to weary of your constant judgements of my spiritual condition.

What's your problem with some of these verses or definitions Philo ?I'll just give the one for now ....Co 12:10 To(1161) another243 the working1755 of miracles;1411 to(1161) another243 prophecy;4394 to(1161) another243 discerning1253 of spirits;4151 ..................I have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problems with these verses or the definitions; what makes you think I do? I do have problems with your apparent belief that 'discerning of spirits' has to do with the judging of another's disposition or attitude.

I would like you to read the following and see if you recognise any of this or other, happening to you in your past life.Beanblake I have seen the results children being forced into that teaching. Their Mother, who is my Sister-inlaw turned from going to a Born again church to takeing up being a Jehovah's Witness.She and the three children moved down south and there she forced the teachings and admonishments upon those children. They fought against that teaching. I did see some of the books to teach them and I found them quite awful. As they got older they would refuse to go or listen to the teacher, who always came to teach them, that being from a very young age. I could never understand why the children only, went into a room with the teacher. But their mother did not go into the room, with them. I have seen the affects that they now have, in their adult lives, I must include a not nice stepfather. Their mother is still a staunch believer, there is no budging her at all.Beanblake, these young adults, Can't settle within themselves, inside they are edgy and torn, there minds are tormented with the atmosphere of that home they grew up in. They try so hard to make life work for them, they are damaged deeply. Some of the damage being to them that, their mother did not protect her children, from what they classed as being the big baddies.When I read what you write, you are being sincere I really, really am not judging you, my heart cries and goes out to you. Because I feel the pain, when I look at these damaged young adults who are my flesh and blood relatives. When you were saved did anyone take you, through any kind of sessions, to be cleared in many ways of the teachings that you were taught. Did you go out for prayer, to be cleared of all manner of things, that you might see as needing prayer. Have ever had healing and deliverance sessions. these are not unusual, for many people, all kinds of people.There is something in what you write and the way you present it. It reminds me of the home down south and the teaching and the risistance by the children and the forcefulness of their mother and those who taught them.I believe that you are praying, about that which you write. I believe you have a faith in the Lord. Please think about what I have written, tell us how the JW teaching made you feel, as you grew up Or find someone to tell it to and that you would seek prayer, for all of it. I believe you need to be set free from that teaching and what the whole thing causes. I would love to say this to these young adults. But they won't listen to anything, about God. Who can blame them. They are prayed for as is their mother.But you, you found him, you found God and Jesus.I think even now you might need to get free. From the bombardment and brainwashing of a type of scripture, that was put into your memory, which was not good. You can have a freedom that, I don't think you have experienced yet. So that God can use a willing servant like you, for his purpose.The Lord bless you and the Holy Spirit of God reveal to you, the things that he wants you to know for you Beanblake, as you walk with him. Amen. ellie

Interesting how this is turning and changing, perhaps the symbolism and references to hands is more telling than we might guess. Bloody hands/ Clean hands... It is well that things are coming out from it.Annie, this is a bit puzzling..I at this point, doubt that I could... but may I say, that if another, on any thread, ever tries to defend me, or what I believe, and you attack them for doing so, I will expose what you are doing just as fast as what's been going on here for a brother.Expose? This isn't about defending and offending, attacking one another. Find this surprising as well as some projecting and assumptions being leveled, all very unnecessary. Surely there is an attempt to keep the peace here and speak the truth in love even if it must be forcefully applied. I likely have strayed into this territory myself in these attempts to discern the situation and conduct here. Hope it is always forthcoming when it is necessary to straighten my own attempts out here.Like I said, when it comes to Philo and I contending, ya may want to let me stand on my own, so you're not the next target.Again, totally unnecessary, this is divisive language and then some. Agree to disagree, but this is not to be a divide and conquer atmosphere.My prayer is that we all do an extra check of our pride level before the Lord, will start with my own self.

To throw a thought out, If you have'nt changed your mind recently how do you know you still have one. ;-)

Thanks Zeke,that's a great quote... and somewhat familiar. :-D

Krispy wrote: We all need to chill out a little bit...I earlier wrote: The point being is that sometimes we need to just put our guns down for a second. I recall a situation once where a group of mafia members were seated around a round table. Things got bad and they jumped up with a pistol in each hand and with their arms crossed and had a gun on each other criss crossed around the table. It was an amusing sight really.It is not amusing anymore. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.I have noticed in even local relationships that there is a lot of tension and suspicion building up. A lot of friendly fire flying around here. As a mother or father how would you react if you heard your children accusing one another of being illigitimate and such?

Dear Krispy,Well, then Krispy, I am wrong. Please, let us settle this once and for all. As a friend who cares, as a token of your generosity, please answer this question: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior?Sincerely,Blake

Dear Ellie,My story is a bit different. For everyone it is a bit different. I can assure you that I do not hold or carry any of thier left over teachings. I believe in the Trinity, in Heaven and Hell, and the full extend of what Christ has taught me. After I came to know Christ, my heart rejoiced. I was indeed set free from the deception and lies. The very moment the Holy Spirit enters into our heart, we have been given the Spirit of truth. We do not need men to tell us what to believe any longer. We know the truth for ourselves.However, while we have the truth, while we have Jesus in our hearts, we all have a great deal to learn. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is likened to a toddler. While a toddler has all the capacities for muscle movement and speech, they still must learn muscles movement, depth perception, and language. While we all have the truth within us, we must learn how to speak it. And thus comes the journey of our lives as Christians, learning to walk in the Spirit.The truth is this: Jesus is Lord. Many don't understand what this means. All of Christianity is encapsulated in this one statement. If you want me to expand and explain, I will. After I was saved and knew the truth, a million questions came flooding into my mind. I prayed every night to Jesus asking Him to tell me the truth about all things. Trusting only in Him, I let Him guide my path. He has blessed me with immense wisdom and I have matured quickly. I read the entire bible from cover to cover in 3 months by the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit. Since then, I have read many books and have learned many things.I still have many questions and despite what people are saying, I have learned many things from this website. The greatest step we can take in our faith is to realize that we don't have all the answers, but to trust in Jesus despite all the flaws, injustices, and contradictions. Deep faith does not worry about falsities and lies, for it is confident in the truth. It does not seek to point out flaws in others, but rather proclaim truth. Is that not so? I have much to learn. I know this to be true. I am listening to everyone. I also know what Jesus lays on my heart. I know when my Master speaks to me. Sometimes, it doesn't always make sense. Sometimes things don't work out like I want them. Sometimes it is really confusing as to what God is trying to do. However, we know God is in control and whatever happens, it's all for the glory of Christ. Even if I, or anyone else, makes mistakes along the way. The cross is final. Thank you for your encouragement. I respect that your heart cries out for me. If I were you, I would feel the same.The Lord had laid it on my heart to write out a passage on how to speak to Jehovah's Witnesses. However, with everyone saying that I am wrong and labeling me a false teacher, I have felt extremely discouraged. However, if you think it would be helpful for you, then let me know and I will. In Love,Blake

Hi Krispy,I am not reacting to you, I am reacting to folks questioning one anothers spirituality, etc. That is very disturbing. Especially when it seems to me that everyone is hopefully saved (as the old timers would call it). Really the post was more in your defense. God Bless,-Robert

Dear Krispy,Fair enough. I believe Jesus Christ is Lord. He is King. He is God Almighty. There is no other God greater than Christ. There is nothing in Heavens or earth that is greater than Christ. Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. Only Christ is good. No other name is greater than Jesus. By no other name can a person be saved. Christ is the Holy Ghost, the Father, and God in one. Christ is supreme. Christ is the living Word. It matters to me Krispy what you believe because my heart cries out for you. It is what Christ has put into my heart. That is the only way I can explain it. I would like to tell you that it's because I am such a good, great, and loving person. However, that is not true. And obviously, I don't know you. I am not your best friend from ages ago. I am not your father or brother. I am just a friend. Sincerely, though, my heart cries for you. The Lord has also revealed to me some about your future. However, after all this talk of being wrong, I have really started to question myself. I do not want to share that part. I am beginning to think I am crazy. However, no matter what I say or do, I cannot retract what I have said. The Lord will not let me. I may be wrong, but Jesus is right. So, I leave it in His hands.Either way, what have you got to lose? If you are Christian, then to declare your faith should be wonderful. You will only be strengthened by all this. If you are not, then to find Jesus is wonderful. Either way, it's a win for you. In love,Blake

Dear Krispy,Thank you. Indeed, I have much to learn. I never denied that. As I said, I do not know it all, and I do make mistakes. It would appear I have made a big mistake here, at least in judging you. May the Lord have mercy on me. Well, there is no reason to say anything more. I do hope you know that I am sorry and that I only had the best intentions. By the way, I didn't dismiss being taught by men. I am sorry if I gave you that impression. However, who should I give credit when the Spirit chooses to speak through men, that man or God? It is like the bible. Should I give the bible and it's authors credit when the Spirit uses it to speak to me, or should I give all the credit to Christ? Obviously, the bible and other books have been written by men. What I learned from them came from God through His Holy Spirit. But then again, what do I know? Your friend,Blake

Krispy,You have proven me wrong. If what I said earlier did not come from the Lord, then why would this? None of it is true. I just make a great deal of assumptions and speculations. You have the Holy Spirit in you. Why would God tell me something and not you? Let Him tell you Himself. I am nothing. Ask Jesus, for I am just a man who knows nothing. It is done. I have learned a great lesson in humility.God Bless,Blake

It is done. I have learned a great lesson in humility.“My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:” (Heb. 12:5b) Both halves of this sentence are important exhortations. :-)

Mike, I wish you had been as observant on these threads. Dear Annie, might I call for a truce with these things? It is nearly impossible to keep pace with all that goes through here and having been away the better part of the month I did only now attempt to read up on these.For what it's worth and it is directed at everyone and no one specifically, this stemmed out of the carry over and thoughts going in to this morning:Psalm 139 Death of PrideYes, there were a few appeals for Peace on these also, but I was left to myself, as a fairly new member.Think there is a lot of misconceptions there...I highly respect you, but you have not read every encounter there has been between Philo and I and why I don't normally post so defensely to others here and enjoy this forum and all the other members.To be a fair judge, I ask you only do a search on all of my posts since I've signed on here.Well that would be a task! :-) Somewhere in all that was a prior thread from Ron about... here it is again:do all in the name of the Lord JesusThis very well sums up much of the sentiment as well as helpful in trying to give some of the reasons behind the difficulty in this medium we are all using.This is redundant but... not every question is an assult or an attack, it very often is just a question. There is this very disturbing penchant to jump to conclussions, the whole projecting and making assumptions about each other on a personal level. Even to the point of making a discussion a debate. Well a debate can be just fine as well, bringing forth things will raise questions and challenges and that doesn't have to be misconstrued as anything more or less than what is being stated....Really short on time here and would really love to get a fuller orbered understanding amongst us all...Briefly and again indirectly, why are we so easily offended on a personal level? As Robert mentioned, a lot of friendly fire flying around, the suspicions... the want of defending ourselves when challenged... Is this how the Lord reacted? Not as a rebuke, but to just think on it...how did He react?

Dear Greg,I apologize. I made a big mistake. Blake

I love ya, buddy... you could have run away, but you didnt, and I appreciate your courage in sticking around.And so do I, I praise God for this. To see and hear a true willingness to work through all the perceptions and misconceptions, the misunderstandings. How easily this could have all taken an even more grievous turn for the worse, thank God for His forbearance with us all. This is, in part, what I had alluded to earlier about "It is well that things are coming out from it."So they can be faced and dealt with, we being children of God, how we ought to err on the side of knowing our own selves, having first pulled out the proverbial plank to see, giving place to each other and to the possibilities that we just might have it all wrong.Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Thank you brothers, Steve, Blake. How well you have given a face and a reality to that scripture.And Blake, someday as the Lord leads, would love to hear your testimony as it developed. There is a area for this expression here: Miracles that follow the plowYou could tag on to one existing or start a new one.... very blessed by this outcome, may the Lord increase in our hearts.

Thank you brothers, Steve, Blake. How well you have given a face and a reality to that scripture. :-)