The Truth About Katrina?

I am not saying I agree or disagree with this, but thought it was interesting; especially considering that this week in New Orleans, they were supposed to hold what is called "Decadence Day" for the gay community. Any thoughts?-------------------From 'Olive Tree Ministries':What you won't hear anywhere is that this week New Orleans was to observe "Southern Decadence Day" with 100,000 homosexuals gathering there to commit unspeakable acts in public. Previous events were photographed and sent to the mayor and police officials but they did not care. They had their own lust: The $100,000,000 the event brings in. Gambling casinos took a hit on the coast as this is where the eye of the storm hit. And as America forced Israelis out of parts of their land, hurricaneKatrina was building in the Atlantic. A Fox reporter said, "It must be an emotional experience (for Americans) to walk away from their homes and not ever live in them again." Same with those forced out in Israel. Israeli homes are being demolished as Gulf Coast homes are demolished. This was America's greatest "evacuation." Now we have "refugees". Israelis were evacuated and many are refugees living in tents andrefugee centers, thanks to America. The Israeli uprooting will affect their entire economy in that some of their finest produce which was exported is now left behind. America's economy could face a steep recession as oil processingrefineries were damaged. Plan to see price increases within days. Will this bring our economy down? Major industries will be affected from food delivery, jet fuel, travel, insurance, and so much more with the "ripple effect" of skyrocketing gas prices. -------------------------------------(3) "We REAP What we SOW"-by Amy Methvin. I am going out on a limb with what I am about to say. It may strike a nerve, and I am sorry if that does happen. But in these days people must hear the TRUTH, even if it is uncomfortable. I knew, as this country has pushed the "roadmap to peace" in Israel that for our country there would be dire consequences. And as I watched the people of Gaza Strip driven from their homes, I knew in my spirit there would be very swift (within a few weeks atbest) consequences for our country. In case you don't know, the USA is the driving force behind these agreements. I just wasn't prepared for the obvious parallel in reaping what we sowed. It was just a couple of weeks ago, that we watched the people of Gaza driven, weeping, from their homes. They were forced to leave their homes on and near the sea, as their government then came in and bulldozed those homes. Where are these people now? They are in government shelters and government housing. They are basically homeless. Now look at our situation. Our neighbors on and near the sea have been driven from their homes and their homes have been destroyed. They, too, are weeping and homeless, dependent on the government. One can scoff and say that this is just coincidence, but there are no coincidences in the Lord. The Bible says that we reap what we sow, and that those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. I have been told by several people that government officials (even up to the VERY top) have been warned of the consequences of forcing Israel to give up land. And I believe that would be like the Lord to warn first. However, our government did not heed the warning, but pressed on with what seemed right in their own eyes. I hope this will give us all better understanding of the verses in Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight." If you need Scripture for a confirmation of "recompense" for removing Israel from its territory, see Joel 3.Even in the midst of this destruction here in our country and for those in Israel, God is at work. He CAUSES all things to work together for good for those who are called according to His purposes. Many will call upon His Name during these days and be saved. So pray that people will open their eyes and call upon Him. I certainly don't pretend to know all the ways of the Lord, but this seemed pretty easy to discern. In these days let us all seek the Lord while He can still be found. My love to you all. ~Amy Methvin.---------------------------

krispy, i'd start praying for your state

And as America forced Israelis out of parts of their land, hurricane Katrina was building in the Atlantic. A Fox reporter said, "It must be an emotional experience (for Americans) to walk away from their homes and not ever live in them again." Same with those forced out in Israel. Israeli homes are being demolished as Gulf Coast homes are demolished. I don't want to jump to conclusions. Am I missing something here?As regards making a firm link between the city's sin and its present suffering, I would be cautious. “There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”” (Luke 13:1-5, NKJV)If you ask Christ 'is there an immediate cause and effect relationship between 'sin' and 'suffering'? his answer, twice over, is "I tell you, no."

Hi Ron,you bring up a good point! I used to be very quick to judge : disaster=judgement. again, many people equate sickness and judgment as well. And i know now from personal experience with my own health problems, etc.. that it was not judgement- but I do look at it as a refinement of sorts. I see the Lord using my 'afflictions' as a means to draw me closer to Him and refine me. To learn to seek comfort in the only "Comforter"- to learn to rely on Him alone.Are we to say that those who suffer from illnesses also are being judged by God? Or those who go through terrible tragedies? No. We know that is not true. Yes, there are consequences for all actions, for all sin. I really don't know the answer to all of this. What I do believe is, we say that God controls the waves of the sea and the wind, etc- so we know that He is in control. He has allowed this to happen for whatever reason. I hope that just as I learned to draw closer to Him and rely on Him as my Comfortor, as I have let my afflictions mold me and refine me- that these many people suffering from the hurricane may find the same Comfortor, that they may let these hard times bring them to the Lord and refine them :)I am still getting rid of alot of old mindsets and I pray that I would think like Christ in all situations. Hopefully I am getting there day by day :-) In Him, Chanin

We cannot deny that divine judgment is a Biblical message. However, trying to figure out the root cause of this “act of God” gets very sticky. I heard that someone blamed the US gov’t for not signing the Kyoto agreement. Many Christians attribute it to the gays and casinos. Some relate it to the Gaza withdrawal. But what about the most obvious cause? If global warming produces more severe hurricanes, and if global warming is the result of gas emissions, etc, then, who is really to blame? Is it not the lifestyle of the West in general – largely America. (can’t exclude Canada who feasts off the wealth too)Let me tell you a story: In 1980 my husband and I returned home after a three-year term as overseas missionaries. For three years we had lived among simple people with a simple living standard. After our return I was in shock over the level of prosperity. When I went into a church, I could hardly worship because of my shock over the luxury - such things as the lovely carpet, the chandeliers, and many other symbols of western wealth. I was in shock because no one there seemed to be embarrassed or apologetic by their wealth. After a few years I got used to it and it felt normal. (Familiarity does that to you.)The last commandment, “Do not covet” is repeated many times in the NT. We are commanded not love the world, or the things in the world. We are supposed to be strangers and aliens in this world. Yet we have not been following this. We have lived too much like the others in our culture!! We have thus contributed to the global warming through our consumerism, and thus to the disasters. The Bible has much to say about the distribution of wealth. Apparently 4% of the world population is American, and they hold 25% of the world’s wealth. Doesn’t something seem wrong here? Scripture says: Judgment begins in the house of God. So, I urge my fellow believers to look at our own “stuff”, and repent, and live the lifestyle that Jesus called us to. How can we expect the world to be any better than us. It’s time to be shaken out of our comfortable feelings and be filled with shock and grief over our decadence.

I know in Americian history the government used to call an solemn assembly when large disasters hit America to seek the face of God.During 9-11 I was on a business trip in Las Vegas. We as Christians may question whats going on, but I never seen the likes of people dropping their madness. Even the casinos were invoking God on their megatrons. The whole place emptied out as if God had showed up. On the way home I drove 1500 miles nearly. Secular stations dropped their usual format and played songs like Amazing Grace. For a hot second the nation seemed to "come to herself"- but as soon as she found relief... I think of a Wilkerson message, "The Towers Have Fallen and We Missed the Message." Very sobering what he said in that sermon. It was almost prophetic.

Honestly, since our big fires here in California a couple years ago, I've started considering natural disasters as God's judgment. I heard on the news about the casinos getting damaged by the hurricane Katrina, and I thought the same thing. We know it's not Mother Nature, and as far as I know, God still holds the heavens and all in it together. Our country sure does deserve judgment.At the same time, saying that hurricane Katrina was a result of God's judgment wouldn't be something you'd say to someone who is suffering over there. God's judgment comes after His longsuffering love, and then afterwards, He continues to pour out His love to the broken and humble.

KrispyKrittr wrote:Interesting to think about... since the Cherokee reservation here in Western North Carolina opened up casinos, we have had a number of natural disasters. The worst was when we were hit with 2 back to back hurricanes... and we are in the mountains... we NEVER get hurricanes. They usually die out before they get this far inland.The NC state government just voted in the lottery this morning... think I'll go hide under my bed now!KrispySo would it be fair to say since Texas does not allow gambling is why the hurricane took a right turn towards sin city?

As an unbeliever, over thirty years ago, I walked the French Quarter of New Orleans. Even as an unsaved person I recognized that something was very wrong. It seemed if there was a God he would destroy the whole city. Off one of the streets of Bourbon Street I looked up at the night sky and said, "God if you are really up there let me know. Within a year I was born again.It was only the mercy of God that kept me from experiencing God's wrath as an unbeliever and is only the mercy of God that has kept New Orleans from experiencing worse that what is going on there right now. It seems to me that all of the US is going to see much worse if there isn't revival soon. This country is a sin polluted land with innocent blood on its hands. Jonathan Edwards spoke of a sinner walking on a floor of rotten wood over the fire of hell. It seems that the US has been on that wood for quite awhile.Just because there are Christians in the US doesn't mean the US won't see the judgement of God. Jeremiah was in Jerusalem when it fell. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. God will be with the believer through the worst but that doesn't mean we won't go through the worst.In Christ,GaryE

Interesting Scripture:Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Where is gambling specifically forbidden in the Bible? Seems like having a casino is judgment enough for a city allowing a casino. Is the gay pride parade any worse than the debauchery that happens day in and day out in the french quarter? Seems like a general gathering place for those who have hardened their hearts toward God. Doesn't it seem ironic that they would choose a location below sea level next to the sea to engage in things that would seem to so easily call forth for judgment? It's like running through a storm carrying an metal pole and cursing God. If you get hit by lightning, was it God's judgment or just natural consequence? Will man caused 'global warming' be the excuse given when the earth groans in labor, thus allowing a generation no reason to think it's spiritual in nature? I think I should repent, lest I likewise perish.

markm wrote:Where is gambling specifically forbidden in the Bible? There are not many specific references to gambling in the Bible. The major one is when some soldiers at the foot of the cross gambled to see who would win Jesus' garments. Some gamblers justify their gambling by sighting the fact of the lack of biblical references on gambling. They assume that since gambling is not specifically forbidden, it must be okay. If we took this logic, then we could argue that taking drugs is okay too, since the Bible does not specifically forbid it.Let me share five basic reasons why I believe gambling is wrong:1. It's against the golden rule. Jesus teaches us to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Gambling perverts this law by wording the golden rule this way: "Do unto others before they do it unto you." No gambler desires the best for his fellow man. Instead, he wants his fellow gamblers to lose so that he could win. This is selfishness.A man asked the Lord if gambling was right or wrong. The Lord answered him, "Son, I want everyone to win, and in gambling some have to lose so others can win." We are to pray for others, not prey on them.2. It's against the work ethic.Ephesians 4:28 says: He...must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.Gambling does not produce anything useful or profitable. Gambling does not increase our gross national product; it only causes money to change hands.3. It's against godly prosperity.Proverbs 13:11 says: Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow.God's plan for prosperity is simple: Make all you can, save all you can, and give all you can. Notice that this scripture proves that prosperity comes when you allow it to gradually grow. In gambling, people are looking for the big-pie-in-the-sky. They want to hit it big RIGHT AWAY.The only ones making money in gambling are the casinos and bookies. And how do they get rich? Little by little. Bookies are satisfied with simply a small percentage of everyone's bets. In time they become rich.4. It's against the command not to covet.The tenth commandment says, "You shall not covet...You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land...or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Gambling is based totally on coveting what belongs to others.5. It's against wisdom.And finally, it's plain stupid to gamble. The odds are always against you when betting against organized gambling—casinos, race tracks, bookies, lotteries, bingo halls, etc. Organized gambling will prance the few gamblers who got lucky in order to entice others into stupidity. Don't be fooled into thinking that you're going to get rich by gambling. You won't.6. It's addictive.There are some addictions that are quite harmless, such as coffee. However, gambling is not one them. It is very addictive and this addiction will ruin families and wreck people's financial security. Peter said, "For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him" (2 Peter 2:19).I have seen good people turn into thieves all because of the uncontrollable urge to gamble. A lady in my church told me how faithful she once served the Lord until she became addicted to this vice. One day in a casino she lost everything, and while she thought no one was looking, she stole a bucket of coins and ran off. She got caught and learned the high price of low living. It can happen to anyone.These are some of the reasons why I feel that gambling is wrong.

We cannot deny that divine judgment is a Biblical message. However, trying to figure out the root cause of this “act of God” gets very sticky. I heard that someone blamed the US gov’t for not signing the Kyoto agreement. Many Christians attribute it to the gays and casinos. Some relate it to the Gaza withdrawal. It is certainly an Old Testament biblical message. What does the New Testament have to say about these things? (genuine question)

Philologos,you wrote: If you ask Christ 'is there an immediate cause and effect relationship between 'sin' and 'suffering'? his answer, twice over, is "I tell you, no."It is true there may be no immediate repercussions for sins commited, but judgment is coming. Romans 2:2 tells us 'We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things." (NASB) These are the sins mentioned in chapter 1: sexul perversion, unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, malice, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, gossips, slanders, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving,unmerciful...that those who practice such things are worthy of death...they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:) The south is known as the Bible belt, meaning there are a lot of people here who go to church regularly and call themselves Christians. Many are heavily influenced by radical Calvinism. This means they think that once they are 'saved' lifestyle will not matter because they are saved and going to heaven. Hence, you will find all kinds of unrepentent sins among these people. People will not make a call on questionable behaviour because we are not to judge. (They do not read the rest of Romans 2, apparently). Twenty years ago, more or less, a vote came up in this state on whether to allow for the sale of alcoholic beverages. If all of the professing Christians had voted 'no' it would to this day be a dry state. Having worked at a CPC so many years it is shocking what goes behind the scenes. 'Popular Christianity' in the south is rotten to the core. Fortunately, not all Christians in the south are apostate. My point? Many people in the south call themselves christians but live ungodly lives. The Bible tells us judgment must begin at the house of God. This calamity, IMHO, is wake-up call to the people - and not just them but for every thinking person. Are we ready to die? Some of the ones that died may have been godly. Either way, I doubt any who died were expecting life to end so soon for them. The purpose of judgment is to wake people up to the realities of God's holiness and his will that all men repent. (God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked).With the severe devastation in MS and LA there will be lots of opportunities for people to demonstrate the love of Jesus. Might also be a good opportunity for Jesse Morrell to preach...he might not get thrown in jail...ginnyrose

"The Towers Have Fallen and We Missed the Message." Does SI have this sermon somewhere to listen to?In Christ,Doug

You can find the message HERE.

what happens in israel affects the world!!Dom

I agree with Ron's approach to just making blanket responses to God's judgment. However, I would also call attention to the response to such things that those of us who are just upstate from this might seem reasonable. Personally, anything that happens like this has to go across God's desk (so to speak). It is not as though man were directly involved and He has refused to intervene in man's free moral agency (such as the towers falling) or hitler or the like. This storm seemed to make a b-line for the city and washed it completely out. My response to this is that we need to call a solumn assembly and seek God over here before a worse thing comes upon us. We need to use caution against being a 'Bildad' here; but a million refugees sure has my attention. The looting and shoots, etc. Hijackings of medical supplies buses and such. Shooting at rescue teams and beating up rescue workers. If nothing else I am way alarmed by the continued wickedness coming out of the place- in spite of such a blow. :-o God Bless,-Robert

There is much wisdom in these last few posts. I was telling my children that these things that are happening over the last couple of years need to at least cause us to seek Jesus more and be looking up to Him for our redemption draws near.Mike

Amos 3:6b - "When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"This verse comes to mind.

Amos 4: 1 - 13 - Study This Chapter 1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. 2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks. 3 And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast F13 them into the palace, saith the LORD. 4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three F14 years: 5 And offer F15 a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. 6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered. 8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel. 13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, F16 and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name. I just had to add Amos 4 as it is one of my favorite scriptures and it shows his grace and mercy!! Yet you have not returned unto me is the bit I like!!

Another scripture that come to mind is Isaiah 45:7.The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.Oh, that through all these things, people would turn their hearts and eyes to Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, bowing before Him in complete surrender and worship Him.Mike

Brother Neil wrote,Quote:"There are many who are denying the aspects of Divine chastisement in this disaster, and many of these are within the church.They are wrong, DEAD wrong, this is the beginning, and unless our tribe, our nation turns back to God, and away from the golden calf, and away from baal and belial and mammon, and all the other gods, demi-gods, demons, american idols, and other foul funky false gods, you will see things that if I described them to you now, your ears would tingle in horror."And,"This hurricane is just the beginning unless this nation does a 180 and quick.. How many more babies being burned in the fires do you think He's going to allow? How much more imperialist nation stomping and war death you think He's going to allow? How much more worship of the god money do you think a Jealous God will allow?I'm telling you, the FEAR of God will descend on this nation like a wet blanket, suffocating the life out of the unrepentant."I am saddend and sorry to say that you my brother are absolutly right on and correct in what you are saying! I agree with you 110%!!!Let us weep in our closet and stand bold and declare the words of our Lord and Savior in public."Turn from your sins and turn to God, REPENT!because the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand"

But to single this out and say "God is judging that city", I dont know that I believe that Krispy, I think this may be a wise caution. Reminds me: If our house burned down, we would not tell our children that God was punishing them because they were bad. They likely would feel that anyway - that is a natural tendency. All kids have a keen sense of judgment, and easily feel blame when something goes wrong. Surely the victims of the flood must ask a few times, “How come?" How much do we say about judgment. Would it be helpful to tell a suffering young mother that the Casinos were the cause of her agony? Somehow, I think that would not be helpful. As I said earlier: Laying the blame somewhere can get sticky. If we’re doing it out of our own powers of reasoning, we likely will miss the mark. We can only see the end product of sin in a society. Think for a moment about the life of one of those evil sinners in New Orleans – whether the looters, the casino operators, molesters, the homosexuals, etc. Think of their background. They were most likely immersed in a dysfunctional setting – far removed from the love of Christ. The seeds of their harmful life patterns likely started in the cradle and got very engrained. They lived in it all the time! They would not know a better way, even if they wanted it . Then ask, Would they find something better in the churches? Could the churches have made the difference in their lives? Here’s where we might be asking, If those who hold the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE don’t have it within themselves, then how would they ever be able to help their sick society? So how far back can we go to get to the roots? Generations - to sources far removed from the present crisis, to past ideologies, social trends etc. There are so many factors that we don’t understand. And even if God was judging the city, now is the time to extend mercy. “Mercy triumphs over judgment”. This disaster [1906 earthquake] was judged by many not only to be Divine chastisement, BUT to also be the event that quickened sinners to accept the Mercy of God in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus....and this quickening was manifested in a Pentecostal revival that swept the world. Praise God! “Mercy triumphs over judgment”.Diane

Wow! Very interesting info about "Southern Decadence Day." Really causes one to wonder.Was it an act of judgment? Who can really say for sure. But, I would go so far as to say that I believe that our country, as a whole, is under the corrective judgment of God. I believe that things such as this hurricane and 9-11 are evidence that God has pulled back His protective covering from our nation, and that catastophies such as these are warnings to repent, lest we all likewise perish.What really saddens me though is the way that some of these "survivors" are tempting God. Here they are, having just been shown an enormous amount of mercy (surviving this storm), and yet, instead of being thankful and self-sacrificing, they are taking advantage of an opportunity to give themselves over to absolute lawlessness. Is this not a preview of the time spoken of in the book of Revelation, when God pours out His wrath upon an unbelieving world:"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts" (Rev. 9:20-21)

Associated Press - "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," “At least seven bodies were scattered outside the convention center, a makeshift staging area for those rescued from rooftops, attics and highways. The sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. "I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair.”"We've got people dying out here - two babies have died, a woman died, a man died," said Helen Cheek. "We haven't had no food, we haven't had no water, we haven't had nothing. They just brought us here and dropped us."“Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell - it's every man for himself.'""You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people," he added. "You can go overseas with the military, but you can't get them down here."“The street outside the center, above the floodwaters, smelled of urine and feces, and was choked with dirty diapers, old bottles and garbage.”“Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.”"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"“As he watched a line snaking for blocks through ankle-deep waters, New Orleans' emergency operations chief Terry Ebbert blamed the inadequate response on the Federal Emergency Management Agency.”"This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy," he said. He added: "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."“New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace"I think he is right - this is a national disgrace. It is in these type of situations when peoples true colors come shining through.

There is this scripture:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him." 20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?" 26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?" "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it." 29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it." 30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?" He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." 31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?" He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it." 32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it." 33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.Genesis 18:16-33So to ask the questions, were there less that ten righteous people in New Orleans, and was there knowone interceding?Interesting to note that no prayer was offered for Gomorrah.Also something else to consider, this was the sin of Sodom:49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Ezek 16:49Seems like this could be the general sin of America and not the sin of one city. Not living there I can't say with any first hand experience, only what I have heard from you good folk. So cut me some slack.

philologos wrote:What does the New Testament have to say about these things? (genuine question)I am sure are aware, but very little as it deals primarily with Gods agent for change on the earth, the church.So what then is the need for the OT, what do we take out and why in regards to such matters? Reading the prophets there is specific judgements and statements made about nations(ethnos).

Hi Roadsign...!I posted a comment in another thread concerning whether Hurricane Katrina was the result of the wrath of God. I will copy and post it here as well. ..............................................I'm not that certain that this was a storm resulting from God's wrath. Yes, it is true that God has sometimes poured out his wrath upon a place. But usually, God's wrath was performed by much more supernatural means. Even the earthquakes, famines and pestilence as recorded under the Old Covenant were carried out in a much more supernatural way. It is also quite interesting to note that God would have spared Sodom and Gommorah if ten righteous men had been found (Genesis 18:16-33). It is true that New Orleans is a city that is often filled with unrighteousness. But surely there were at least ten men who truly sought the Lord there -- along with the rest of southern Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. To scrutinize such a catastrophe as an act of God might be placing the blame on the wrong person. Remember, it was Satan who struck Job (and his family and belongings). It is possible that God allowed such a catastrophe to happen for a reason (perhaps to draw men closer to himself). But to blame God for such a disaster might be stretching it -- especially if we are not certain of this. God may not rejoice in being blamed for something that he did not do.In another Hurricane Katrina thread, someone mentioned what Jesus spoke in Luke 13:1-8. In it, Jesus seems to indicate that human judgment is often flawed when labeling a tragedy as an "act of wrath" upon unrighteousness.There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.Luke 13:1-8..............................................On a sidenote, it is quite possible (as you noted) that this hurricane is a result of global warming. But should America bare the brunt of all criticism for this phenomenon? As an undergraduate student, I interned at NASA Langley Research Center in Virginia for several years. Each Thursday morning, all interns were required to sit through guest lectures by various scientists. One of those happened to be Dr. Joel Levine. Dr. Levine is one of the foremost scientist working on the global warming phenomenon, and was named by the Clinton Adminstration to work with a United Nations commission created to find causes and solutions for the global warming problem, as well as check the progress that was being made due to stronger government restrictions on such gases (like CFCs). Surprisingly, less progress was being made than had been thought. Dr. Levine and his team's extensive study found that, while American automobiles and other gas producing products contributed a great amount of greenhouse gases (primarily CO2), the greatest amount of gases came elsewhere. The bulk of the gases were coming from forest fires taking place in third world nations (called Biomass Burning). We were shown satellite imagery of such fires, and they were covered vast portions of Asia, Africa and South America. Such fires are difficult to control by third-world nations (due to lack of technology and resources). These massive fires burn night and day, and some have literally burned for months at a time! http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/biomass_burn/Factsheet.pdfPart of the argument against American ratification of the Kyoto Protocol is that the document exempts nations that inadvertantly release CO2 into the atmosphere, as well as other major contributors (like China -- the world's 2nd largest contributor). The Kyoto Protocol was signed as a symbolic gesture by Vice President Al Gore, but President Clinton refused to present it before Congress for ratification. Many scientists also believe that such release of CO2 is not harmful in and of itself, but that rapid deforestation has resulted in a lack of greater CO2 absorbtion by vegetation. Most of this deforestation is also taking place in underdeveloped countries in Asia, Africa and South America (along the rainforest lines). Some economists have also stated that American ratification of the Kyoto Protocol would result in a very dramatic drop in GDP that could severely damage the American economy.While America is by far the wealthiest nation in the world, it is also the largest consuming nation. Thus, what effects America will effect the world. You cited the statistic that America holds 25% of the world's wealth, yet comprises only 4% of the world's population. That is not quite accurate. While America still comprises about 4-5% of the world's population, the national GDP comprises about 20% of the world's GDP:http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.htmlInterestingly, most of the other nations all rank the United States as its greatest import partner. In other words, the United States buys more goods from other nations, thus adding to their national GDP. The United States imports about 17% of all agricultural and manufactured products in the world:http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2087rank.htmlThis actually sounds alot like "Babylon the Great" as found in Revelation 18: 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.I agree with your notion about covetry. It seems that one of the greatest fallacies in the Church today is the tendency to covet the things of this world. The entire prosperity message seems engulfed with the desire for worldly possessions. But to consider a hurricane to be the result of this lust for worldly wealth might be a little too much. If God were going to judge a city for their sin, there are many other cities in this world that should have been judged first (like Amsterdam, Moscow, Mecca or Rome). Besides, I truly believe that any disaster that is allowed or performed by God is for the purpose of drawing men unto Himself. Several times in Revelation, God pours out supernatural judgment upon the earth. And each time, John mentions that the people remaining on Earth still did not repent of their sins (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:8-11, etc...). But such wrath is used as a last resort, in order to draw men to Himself. Right now, it is God's kindness (or goodness) that leads us to repentence (Romans 2:4). :-)

As a person who has lived in the south for 44 years and being a yankee transplant I would like to comment on the assessment of what is wrong in the south as pertains to blacks/poverty.I am also writing from my experience as a volunteer at a CPC for fifteen years. There we worked with poor people all the time. Someone has said a disaster like this brings out the best in people and the worst in people. Why can we not stop there and accept that? There have been many people in times past who were in bad situations but did not resort to violence! Many people are poor because of sinful decisions that will lock them into poverty: breeding with no thought of consequences - spell that immorality. Then they expect the government to pick up the tab and it has. And expect charity organizations to fill in the gaps. Race has nothing to do with it: this sinful behaviour's consequences are an equalizer. Since the government has not supported them to their liking, they will resort to stupid lawsuits individually and corporately to get more money from the whites who they think owe them a living without them working for it. Area farmers have been sacked with lawsuits from neighboring blacks, some are even employees. They go to church and told if they want momey to sign here on the line and they did. As a result some find themselves looking for another job and discovered they were not hireable because of their participation in the class action lawsuit. Why am I saying this? Being Black and poverty do not produce lawnessness. Sin does. Sins like greed, fornication, immorality, sloth, coveteousness, false witness, stealing, etc. These are the sins we see demonstrated. "A disaster like this brings out the best in people and the worst in people." Man is simply incapable of dealing with the consequences of sin in the heart. Only God can. When you get a huge crowd of them like you have in N Orleans, you are guaranteed to have a riot. And do not forget the rescuers were shot at where services had to curtailed...might be a good idea to get the reaction of people who worked there to bring assistance. Just my thoughts, controversial, I am sure. But I would like us all to hear the rest of the story from the rescuers which may not be forth coming for a long time. They are people who work long and hard to help. But how can you help when you are being shot at? Why do those masses of people not gang up on them and take their guns away?Must quit....I am also upset, as you can see....ginnyrose

The above comments are very helpful because they correct our myopia. There seems to be an inbred craving to lay the blame somewhere. Even if Katrina had nothing to do with any past sins, it does at this present time expose the reality of the sinful bent of humanity. (although many of the roots go way back to sins of past generations, ex exploitation, etc)This is the opportunity for the church to step in. I wonder how many will take Franklin Graham's suggestion: If every church took in 10 families, the problem of displacement will be solved. Diane

Neil, you take issue with me on this statement: Many people are poor because of sinful decisions that will lock them into poverty: breeding with no thought of consequences - spell that immorality.May I ask you a question: Have you ever worked in a charity organization, sharing the gospel, trying to help them spiritually, physically? to rise above their poverty? I have worked for fifteen years in such a ministry. If you will read my post you will notice I did NOT say ALL poor people are there because of sinful decisions: I said many. Big difference. Our director has had to make guidelines to help us know how to deal with people who expect us to provide them with the neccessities and luxuries of life because we volunteers often did not know how to handle people who expect handouts, but who could buy cigarettes, drugs, and other non-essentials. (Sir, I talked with a lady from Teen Challenge who said to never give money to homeless people: they will use it to buy drugs. Give them a meal....and even in the sharing of hard goods, they may sell it to suport their drug habit. One needs to be so very wise in dealing with needy people. Some are in genuine need and can be helped. One must learn to discern this and that is what the Spirit is for! Praise the LORD!!!! We cannot do a good job in our own strength).One time when I was trying to help a young woman, give her advice on how she might save money she told me: "you are old, I am modern!" There are more stories....this is just one. Neil, I love to share with people. And my clients who were and are needy got all they needed and wanted and were so grateful. I was blessed to be in a position where I could do this. As a person who dispenses goods donated to us, I felt keenly the need to exercise wisdom in its dispersion. When you work for a charity dispensing goods we face the problem of being an enabler in supporting a sinful lifestyle. Jesus says we need to give to whoever would ask of us. Then Paul also says if a man does not work he should not eat. So you have this tension to deal with and it ain't fun. But the Spirit does lead. I would suppose not many people who are in leadership positions in charities who share goods, will speak openly of the problems they experience because it might hurt their fund raising programs. (Just my guess, here).In the meantime, brethren from our church are helping people in disaster striken areas. This morning my husband went to help at a camp where trees are down.....and this will be something our brethren will be doing for a long time. And there will be more opportunities to share. Will have to wait and see....ginnyrose

the word “Babylon” has to do with confusion ( related to the tower of babel, of course )this statement is very to the point -YeshuaIsMyGodEven if America is or isn't the Babylon in Revelation, it SURE ACTS LIKE A TYPE OFBABYLON. Rich, Prideful, act as if they dont need God.America nor the Roman Church are exactly the full expression of “Babylon” ... but theyare perhaps two of the greatest expressions ( both standing for worldly power, while bothusing “God” as their alleged source of that power --- which is how confusion is sown -through all the “God-talk”)sermonindexI know in american history the government used to call an solemn assembly when large disasters hit america to seek the face of God.Oh how america has changed.neilginand unless our tribe, our nation turns back to God, and away from the golden calf, and away from baal and belial and mammon, and all the other gods, demi-gods, demons, american idols, and other foul funky falsegodsThese two statements here reflect this confusion, of how “God talk”, which has been ahistorical aspect of both entities - America & the Roman Church - causes us to want toremember a time, when America ( or for that matter, for some - the Roman Empire ) was anallegedly “godly nation.” I’m sure there were people in the Roman Empire after it became “christianized” on thesurface - who lamented about the times when “Rome was more Christian than it now is “To the degree that “solemn assemblies” were called in the history of the american entity ofgovernment, there should be no doubt that these occurred ( keeping in mind what a publicly pious nation America always has been ) -- but that's not the issue.Though they no doubt occurred, they did not touch the heart of God - and nor should wethink that solemn assemblies today would touch His heart.Our God is not affected by public attempts at lip-service. He sees full well how politicians are able to profit from the use of “God-talk”, and pays no attention to it, in a public forum. - [ study up on the emperor constantine for the greatest example of a ‘christian leader’ making use of “God”, as a play thing ].Rather, the Lord hears hearts when they are praying in the venue unseen to men ( Matthew 6:5,6 ).Oh - but Israel had public convocations when they heard the law again, through Ezra.We aren’t Israel.The transposition from the Old Testament Israel to present day America has been one of the most whorish ( and Babylonian ) concepts ever created [in the mind of Satan, to cause us to set our hearts on America - not the unseen hidden kingdom of the Coming Age -- in our heart ]. Is our heart set on America - or the Kingdom ? or do we confuse the two[ i know many americans would want to picture the Lord reigning from Zion on earth, and Washington DC as His 'adjunct' co-capital]America has always been a nation built on a 'form of godliness’ - or various forms - butmost all of them - denying the power of God.America has never been shy to flaunt, as a whore, its public piety.But God pays no attention.-- but God has blessed America, because of its piety, one might argue.God blessed Rome to extend into an empire throughout the Mediterranean world ---when Rome could never have been said to be “a godly realm.”We have in our hearts, amongst Christians reared up here in America, a desire to “ turn America back to what it was.”America never was that. It was never God’s ‘nation’ -- God’s ‘home of righteousness’ --- God’s ‘beloved.’ [ to say this is idolatry ]We don’t want America to return to being a land of public piety & morality, while insideits churches are dead, cold, buried. ( read Tozer on the state of spiritual life in American churches while America was more "outwardly moral" )Let America go to hell in a handbasket --- while the true Church amongst Her --- rises upin grace, power, mercy --- the risen life.America has never been God’s focus, as we want to imagine it is.It’s His church in America He’s interested in. Let’s get our eyes off ‘America’ ---- and set our sights on “things above.” "since then you have been raised with Christ - set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God -- set your minds on things above, not on earthly things -- for you died and your life is now hidden with Christ in God"Have you died to America, yet ? And been raised into focus on the coming age ?

Hi Joshua,( you read me correctly as far as the 'we')I agree that Israel's mistakes are to be learned from --- but individually. All the promises that were to Israel are to us, individually - not to "america" or for "america." Again, this is the problem of so much confusion and babylonian deception in american life today.To apply the verse, as so many do - " If my people humble themselves ..... I will heal their land" ---- is way off base. It reflects an all too earthly thinking amongst american christians - not a heavenly kind.The Christian with his/her mind set on things above ... would not view 'America' as his 'land' ... that he wants God to heal.The promises of 'the land' to be healed, for the Christian -- is the soul.Christ taking up more and more and more inhabitance in the soul of the blood-bought believer is that 'healing of the land' .... to create more channels whereby the Life of God in Christ may flow through ( to others, to heal their 'land' )baruch

the reign of King Josiah over Judah and Jerusalem was a time of great public 'convocation' ... the slaying of hundreds of thousands animal sacrifices .... clearing away of areas for temple prostitution ( in the holy temple in jerusalem ) ... breaking down of idols, etc etc etc ....right before the Lord allowed Jerusalem to be shattered and burned by Nebudchanezzer and the Babylonianswhat was His attitude toward the reform ?He saw through it. It was only outward. He still allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed and swept away. His only concession was to King Josiah, whose heart was sincere - allowing him to die prior to the coming the days of the destruction and exile.Josiah was sincere ... "the people" weren't ( though they took part in the sweeping away initiated by Josiah ).God saw the 'reforms' ... but He paid no attention to it ( 2 Chron. 34 onward )the problem with Israel was not enough holy assemblies ... it was their hearts

Hi Baruch_48...!There has been several historical interpretations of the Book of Revelation's Babylon the Great. Some have stated rather emphatically that it refers to the actual geographic city of Babylon (located in Iraq). Some (like David Wilkerson) have stated their belief that New York is a modern Babylon. Others have pointed to Rome (or the Roman Church), because it is the "city of seven hills," along with its brutal history of dealing with Christians. In modern times, some have pointed to Hollywood, Communism, China, and even the modern established "Church." After reading the account of the destruction of this "great" city in Revelation 18, it does sound quite a bit like America (with it's trade and wealth). However, America does not seem to be the major cause of death of true believers and martyrs throughout history. I suppose my point is that this is still a mystery (hence, the title "Mystery -- Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17). As far as the history of America, it seems clear that many of America's founders and leaders have been godly men (and professing believers). While, of course, these men were far from perfect, they went to great lengths to give public honor and acknowledgment of Christ. As far as whether or not they were sincere in their beliefs or with their words, we may never know on this temporary side of eternity. It is impossible and dishonest for us to judge their hearts or intentions, especially since they have long since passed away. However, they did set up a system that allowed men to choose how they would worship, without a "state" or "official" Church (and the problems that this entails). While such a system has allowed non-believers to have a voice in the political system, it also prevented a particular group from "ruling" over others through religious doctrine. This is a vast contrast with the Roman, Constantine (who declared EVERYONE a member of the "Church").Shortly after my mother gave her heart to the Lord, we attended a church that had several immigrants. One of our friends at the church was an older Russian immigrant, who somehow made his way out of the Soviet Union during the height of the Cold War. I was just a little boy, but I remember some of this man's stories about the persecution to the Church (and other Jews) in the former Soviet Union. One day, a guest speaker preached about how "evil" America had become, that America had become an abomination, and that one day, "America will pay for her great sins!" After Church, we invited our friend to eat with us. My mother asked him what he thought about the guest speaker's message. He said, "Well, I don't think he really understands how blessed he is to live in this country. I would rather live in this "evil" nation and have the freedom to serve God aloud than to be a Premiere in Russia." I thought that his were words of wisdom.By the way, II Chronicles 7:14 is still true today."If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."My prayer is not that America will become what it once was, but that God will make us what we should become. :-)

My prayer is not that America will become what it once was, but that God will make us what we should become.Amen to that.

You know, you Americans - Can I say that without offending anyone? - are cultivated into an entity, consciously and deliberately, by your political and education system... The UK is thinking of trying some of your policies in this area. But, it does move you away from certain concepts, because it seems to define the boundaries of your thinking, often, geographically, rather than conceptually.Are you talking about the influence of nationalism upon our thinking?It is also possible to abandon the political system to its fate - without confusing a system of government with a system of worship. Unless, of course, the government is requiring you to worship it.This is one of the great debates in American Christianity. While not worshiping our particular version of democracy as a divine government, we do cherish our heritage, which is rooted in a mistrust of monarchy and dictatorship. It is a conflict to an American Christian to leave our "political system to its fate" because we have some influence and are therefore somewhat responsible before God. Perhaps the Christian "right" goes to far, but American citizenship carries responsibilities.Perhaps Dorcas you are simply reminding us to place our trust in God, which is always timely advice! Beyond that universal truth, the only way to ask us to leave America to her fate would be to not only spiritually, but also legally renounce our citizenship and become a foreigner living in the US. This is a true resolution to the problem.I do not say all of this as a triumphant hoorah for democracy or even America as we are not the only democracy on Earth! It is an observation of the system we are born into. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s...well the American Caesar requires more then coin...he requires political participation. This is the Faustian responsibility we have if we are to remain a democracy.Perhaps we are in the very last days of the end of end times and none of this matters...but we don't know.(Not really) What we do know is that we have present choices to make regarding the near future of this world for our children. For instance, President Bush is about to select two judges for the supreme court. I believe the bible has something to say about how to fill those empty seats. When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. "In the light of that verse, how can we think that Christians should abandon the political system to it's fate?Thanks Dorcas,MC

We also have influence if we want to use it. It's interesting that voting is not mandatory either for you or for us. But, I've passed the point where I would cling to my right to voteVoting is one way to participate politicaly, but there are other ways to participate including serving in public office. It should be noted that people can see these things as rights, but they could also see them as responsibilities.Therefore, when I see churches and charities being bought off by HMG (Her Majesty's Government) in principle, I feel very free to separate my Christianity from their funding....My thesis is that a Christian can participate in a democracy only so far as it doesn't infringe the theocracy he is supposed to hold more closely to his heart.Certainly. We agree in principle fully. I think that verse is a commentary, rather than a command. Of course I see one wants righteous judges.Observing the value of righteous rulers is not a command per se but it is not a prohibition. Without getting too grand, let me mention one of the sources for this discussion; Constantine. It is vogue these days to talk about the Constatination of Christianity, as if Constantine and a bunch of bishops hijacked the church. I admit for a time I found the idea appealing as an explanation for all the ills of Western Christianity. Yet, at a closer look, I think it's a provocative thesis that doesn't explain anything. Constantine was inevitable. When political rulers of any age are affected by the gospel, their system will be affected. Therefore we must not only critique the results, we must also affect them through positive action.I think that your questions, regarding political participation, are shared by a growing number in the church now. Without passing a judgement eitherway, I think it's interesting how great a distance we have traveled in the past 50 years from the centuries old shadow of Augustine's work "The City of God". For centuries Christians have regarded their own history as the triumph of the meek; Christian culture standing over the grave of Roman civilization. Perhaps our departure from this idea is a subconcious admission that we are feeling less like the meek, and more like the Romans who are about to be sacked!Well, whoever the present day "Romans" are, there never has been a "Christian Nation", including America. However, even by the waters of Babylon, God's people must occasionaly participate in the world's system. What would have happened to the Jews if Mordecai had not insisted that Esther (Hadassah affect a political solution to their problems? (It is interesting that she could take a Median or Persian name without sacrificing her Jewish identity.) Might they be prayed into office?Certainly! We might pray that righteous rulers would run and then be voted into office...and then run and vote. The problem I think with much of this debate is to think of the "battle" with a single front strategy. Politics is a worldly business, but then again so is providing for my family. We were given physical attributes to affect physical things, just as we are given spiritual attributes to do likewise in spiritual places. The verse that was in the back of my mind when I made the original post is what Jesus said to one man 'Let the dead bury their dead'. It's always there as an option, if following and excercising democracy become (mutually) incompatible with Life...That is a fascinating use of those words. (It could be used as a vivid ghastly picture of the evils of modern war.) Those words fall in the heart category for me. Perhaps the young man's father was dead or only dying,(I don't know)but surely Jesus wasn't telling all of us that a Christian abandons his family. I think he was telling us to cut our closest earthbound ties and spend our energies following Him. This is an inward path one takes which may not be easily read by the rest of us looking onward. What do you think?MC

The most important one is the journey of the heart, with God...What do you think?I think you are right!MC