Homosexuality and the kingdom of God

Lahry, Your words radiate the aroma of Christ. Funny that you should post this! Just this morning I had been thinking that even in my two threads about homosexuals, we still barely reached heart of the issue –learning how to apply Christ’s command to love. I was thinking of waiting a bit and then revisit the homosexual issue under a new heading: “How to Love the Homosexual”. I think your post is like a foundation for that. We seem to be on the same ‘wave-length’ (or is it the Spirit?)As you say, until we UNDERSTAND our own falleness, we will never be able to understand the fallenness of other sinners. Consider this:If we were asked to leave all our friends, our familiar surroundings, our earthly securities and go to a foreign land with a different culture, speak a new language, act a new way, live among strangers who have “weird” ideas and who have been harsh and judgmental to us in the past, how eagerly would we go? I am trying to look through the eyes of the homosexual. Just like us, and like the Prodigal son, they too can only leave behind their familiar existence when it stops working for them, and when they know that there is something better. Our role: demonstrate that "something better" through our lives. We can only do that if we actually HAVE IT - God's mercy and love. Diane

It is so easy for us to stand in front of church and gloat that we are "not like that man". We also know what Jesus thought about the man who stood in self righteous deception.Is it not for the sick that the physician came? You're a man that understands that grace leads us to holiness, brother Lahry. There are many posters here who are putting that backwards.I appreciate your heart and your thoughtsbaruch

Here is a stiring true story in Christianity TodayWhen Homosexuality hits homeDiane

Brother Lawry wrote:Now, we see some of all of us in this scripture, so let's not go off on the homosexual alone here, if you don't mind.I see Paul warning the congregation that those who practice lawlessness will not inherit the kingdom of God. Listen to the words of Jesus.Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’And again,John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Do you hear that in verse 35 that a slave does not abide in the house forever? Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Only those who submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit can put to death the deeds of the body. It is only through the increase that comes from God that one is enabled to overcome the flesh and death. The warning of lawlessness must be preached because it is the Life of Christ that saves those who live by faith. The Life is that abundance that overcomes Satan and this world.The OT examples are given so that we might not stumble as many of them did. Sodom and Gamorrah represents man without grace. The evidence of God giving them over to vile passion because they rejected Him is given to us as an example. Christ also judges. Psa. 1:1 \tBlessed is the man\tWho walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,\t\tNor stands in the path of sinners,\t\tNor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 \tBut his delight is in the law of the LORD,\t\tAnd in His law he meditates day and night. 3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. 4 \tThe ungodly are not so,\tBut are like the chaff which the wind drives away. 5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 \tFor the LORD knows the way of the righteous,\tBut the way of the ungodly shall perish. Christ is the Life for those who obey the Spirit and Christ is the judge for those who do not put to death the deeds of the body.In ChristJeff

The California Legislature on Tuesday became the first legislative body in the country to approve same-sex marriages, as gay-rights advocates overcame two earlier defeats in the Assembly.The 41-35 vote sends the bill to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.This is a sign of the times in which we live. This is reality. How then must we live?2Th. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,Salvation comes through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.In ChristJeff

Upon reflecting on this issue I would like to be more precise on my comments.First, can God save someone who is homosexual? Yes!Secondly, is God's grace sufficient to heal such a man or woman from being a slave to this sin? Yes!Thirdly, can one who continues to practice homosexual behavior enter the kingdom of God? NoFourthly, can one who practices homosexual acts remain in fellowship with the believers? No. What is Paul's teaching on removing the leaven from the body of Christ? 1Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1Cor. 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”Paul not only talks of sexual immorality but also those who are covetous, idolaters, reviler, drunkards, and extortioners. You see if we say we are of Christ and yet the evidence of our faith reflects otherwise, we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. We say to the world that there is no hope in the transforming power of our God who sent His Son to the cross in that He might heal those that are His. We make His promise a lie for the world to witness. 17 Therefore\t“Come out from among them\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.\tDo not touch what is unclean,\tAnd I will receive you.”18 \t“I will be a Father to you,\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,\tSays the LORD Almighty.”This is His promise, the question is do we mix faith with what we hear?In ChristJeff

Quote by Lahry:Now, we see some of all of us in this scripture, so let's not go off on the homosexual alone here, if you don't mind.Quote by Lahry:“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1Cor. 6:9-10, NKJV)My Response: for the two quotes:As you very well know, the certain sin such as Homosexuality is in need of deliverance. Without going into detail, of this particular deliverance. As has been said is for those who want to turn from this activity in their life and receive freedom through Jesus who we all know died for all.Quote by Lahry:Then how dare we single out one particular "sin group" as "different" from us?My Response: for one quote:Lahry and roadsign, You! have Singled out Homosexual’s as a subject to talk about, in your postings in the Lounge. Members have simply responded.Quote by Lahry:And gloat that we are "not like that man".My Response to the quote:In our Threads we do not, gloat that we are "not like that man".Quote by Lahry:and cast the first stone? My Response to the Quote:Here, I have added further Scripture to your quote. After her accusers left, after saying to Jesus, ‘this woman was taken in adultery’ Jesus said to woman accused. ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11. She said, No man, Lord.And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’Quote by roadsign:As you say, until we UNDERSTAND our own falleness, we will never be able to understand the fallenness of other sinners.My Response to the Quote: This! (our own falleness) I believe, we do UNDERSTAND! Quote by roadsign:Our role: demonstrate that "something better" through our lives. We can only do that if we actually HAVE IT - God's mercy and love.My Response to the Quote:Only God can fill his people with Mercy and Love in his people.He does that very thing, to me for other people. Over and over. As I am sure he does in many people, who are His.He fills me with His compassion, His Mercy and His Love. I don’t pity, I don’t have sentiment.The following is to try to make you understand, that the intimate act between man and women is normal, in and under the correct circumstances.It is not meant, for misuse.So, what should we do with the people, who steal children, for perverted sex, drugging them, torturing them, and killing them for videos? For the pleasure of sick minded, people who want to see this, for their own sick desire. And all manner, of other activities of…………………….We need to wake up, to what is taking place in this WORLD! Of ‘all manner of suffering’.PRAY.Go into our closet’s, so to speak.Being led by the Holy Spirit in Earnest PRAYER, Intercession, on Behalf of, standing in the Gap for, not seen to be doing this, but doing it in private with God. We can be seen to praying at times, as sometimes we are in prayer groups. Or praying for people, who are present in person.God is the I AM.ellie

Sister ellie wrote:Quote by Lahry:and cast the first stone? My Response to the Quote:Here, I have added further Scripture to your quote. After her accusers left, after saying to Jesus, ‘this woman was taken in adultery’ Jesus said to woman accused. ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11. She said, No man, Lord.And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’Many Christians hear the first part of Jesus' teaching. Yet few hear what Jesus truly is teaching here about sin. Yes Jesus does not condemn this worman, but look to His command, "sin no more." There is forgiveness but there is also something much greater in this story and most do not understand it. Jesus says to the woman, "sin no more."Now listen to what Jesus does next,John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”This is the only way given that would enable this woman to obey Jesus' command. Jesus promised her and everyone around them that, He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”Paul teaches in Romans 5 that we are reconciled to God even when we were still enemies of the kingdom by the blood of Jesus. But much more we are saved by His life.This is the good news, not only the blood but the Life is given to those who follow through faith.In ChristJeff

Go into our closet’s, so to speak.Being led by the Holy Spirit in Earnest PRAYER, Intercession, on Behalf of, standing in the Gap for, not seen to be doing this, but doing it in private with God.Thank you Ellie, for these helpful words. Sometimes we focus on the sins of others and forget to pray first and formost - esp for God to work in us. Just recently a friend told me: Too often we try to control what we can't and fail to control what we can. In other words, we can't fix other people because we have no control over them, but we CAN give ourselves to God and let him work within us. I think that's the only way we can be used by God to love and influence homosexuals or any other sinners. Here is an article that helped me understand the homosexual, and how the church can help: The Not-so-Gay lifestyle from Christianity TodayDiane

In the article suggested by Sister Diane:4. Would they benefit from professional psychological or psychiatric care? Proper diagnosis and treatment of psychological or psychiatric needs can be a critical factor affecting change from many sexual struggles. There are those in the church who think a pastor ought not to make such a recommendation. Certain psychological and psychiatric conditions can interlock with a sexual struggle. Until these are properly treated, there may be a discouraging pattern of reverting into old sexual patterns in an attempt to medicate an untreated condition.I do not accept this view as this represents the empty philosophies of men.The man in the article revealed that he was given a choice. We all are given choices by God to obey and walk the narrow path or disobey and walk the broad path that leads to destruction.The witness chose Life over death. There is no other way. Jesus is the light of life and those who follow Him will not walk in darkness.In ChristJeff

I think that you raise a valid concern, for we can all to easily depend on man rather than God. If the church was good at understanding what's beneath the surface of people, and would minister to them appropriately, then there would be less need for the mental health profession. Sadly that is not the case. In fact, the opposite tends to be true. The mental health profession has to help set people free from damage they incurred in religous environments. (as you will see if you read further testimonies)Mental Health Professionals can see things that their clients cannot see in themselves - things that block them from moving forward - including trusting Christ. But as long as they are locked up, they cannot move forward. It is the person's responsibility to choose Christ - but the reality of the journey cannot be denied. Each person is very different from another. It is no different for homosexuals. We can't just lump them together as if their one problem that counts thier sex life. Some are really messed up, as the article points out Diane

Dear roadsign,Thank you for your kind thoughts towards me.I have to admit that I get upset about certain matters.I can associate with only the smallest amount, of what these people suffer.As I have not lived their kind of life.I have been subject, to other people thinking that they knew best for me.And all the while they didn’t. This caused more suffering to me. I attended a church for a very long time; they had no understanding of my unwell ness. I would have things said to me that caused even more damage.I know what fear is, total isolation, bereft of human company, even Christian company. I was untouchable.I did go forward for prayer, a lot.The saving grace, help, comfort, has been From Our Lord he is the one I relied on constantly, being in a position of no other help. Finding that He was my help.He is my Father.Sympathy is something that I don't look for. Yes, I have to admit that being acknowledged as a person, who is as entitled as any other person, to be simply treat like a human being. Having people, notice improvement is also a great encouragement.Not thought of as untouchable or a waste of time because, their prayers are not answered immediately. Or she must be doing, not according to your will God and that is why the prayer has not been answered. Must not go there as that could cost me time and she is not, you know. Just want a comfortable Christian walk. I saw it happen to particularly, two others.To not be able to go to Church for four years and not to be called on by the church to see how I am. Well it was probably a great relief that I was not in the midst, you know might bring the reputation of the church down. You have depression and you are classed as odd. How wrong they are.I will add here that the churches very much need, to have there eyes and ears opened to what the revival will bring into there churches. The revival they are asking for.Now being more well without the tablets that had been making, me very ill. He has led me to a church that preaches, what the revival will bring into the church. Thank you almighty God.And all the while that I have been unwell. God is the only one who stood by me and of course my brothers and my Mother and others who my Mother knows, who also pray for me.The fact road that you have a heart for these people is amazing and quite wonderful There are those who will have a very complicated, to be unravelled life.There will be different levels, in these people’s lives.Its the same in anxiety, fear, pain, suffering, I know some of the depths..The main thing that a Christian can do is Pray into the situation. We may pray for some years before we see the fruits of the praying. Sometimes we will never know what God has done for all the People, Community, and Country etc that we pray for.I find so much privilege in praying to Him in the Gap for others. He entrusts so much to us.I have learnt that there is so much that I don't know. Human beings are the most complicated commodities we can ever come across, including ourselves.Although we do have some whom God has refined. That have less complication who are given understanding and knowledge by God who leads them, being willing to be led by Him. I found early on in my faith to rely on God and not man. This has led me to pray to Him, he knows everything about me. It is He who does the most revealing to me, about me, this is a very Good thing because it is God alone who is judging me. Some of these things might be made known to others as we seek prayer or for testimony etc.There are of course, sometimes words of wisdom that God gives, from one Christian to another.He chooses how he will reveal, that which I need to know.Although I have had a lot of physical suffering, I have caused some of this by un forgiveness and all other words that attach to that.I have to let go, I have to forgive, I have to do a lot, of things. I need the help Of God. God is most of all, who we need.I need to be led by him and to let go of self, leading.I actually feel that, I can't let go of my leading because I see life at the other side of this, to be empty, dark, void. I think this is because the thing that is familiar to me is for me to lead, in make decisions, paying the bills etc. I am afraid to let go totally because I don't know what is at the other side. It’s like jumping in the deep end when your not a strong swimmer and having the fearful thought that you will not survive, but that you will sink. ‘The unknown.’You could liken much of what I have said, to Gay people. Complex and complicated and the need for God to do his Mighty works in their lives. As we pray for them, standing in the Gap. Humanly coming alongside as God leads, talking with them. God will choose people who he can gift with the ability, to come alongside these people.Your heart roadsign, seems to be maybe a heart and life that God can equip to meet the needs of these people. I know that my main calling, is in another area.To speak on my behalf, I have done and continually look to Him. He has done mounds for me, Glory to you Almighty God. He is mine and I am his. AmenHelp me dear Lord to let go of many things. Amen.ellie

While I think a valid concern has been raised - re the use of mental health workers, I posted the article mainly to give us, the CHURCH, some information for how WE can help. The more we learn how WE can help, the less there will be a need for those outside of the church. IMHO.The church has a hard task cut out for her. Unfortunately her ungodly behaviors over recent years -ex: angry protest marches and unloving responses to gays have marred her credibility. So now we have a big dividing wall between two opposing people groups.Unfortunately even the church is polarizing into opposing camps. Some respond to the harsh judgmental responses by going the opposite way - thinking that they love the homosexual by telling them that they are fine the way they are. That is hopeless. (Mind you, implying to any church attenders that they are good Christians when they are still lost in their sins is most unloving. There is no hope in that!) If we can, at least, try to break down the barriers of hostility, then maybe we can be better able to win the trust of those homosexuals who would like to be set free. Many feel hated and undeserving of God's forgiveness. Oh, how desperately they need to see that Christ loves them!!! Who's going to show them? Is that not the function of the church?It seems that the evangelical church's failure to be as Christ to homosexuals enables all kinds of opposing forces to gain momentum. I think the article above put out by Christianity Today for church leaders demonstrates a step in the right direction. Diane

My dear Ellie! Your testimony brought tears to my eyes. As I was reading I kept thinking: If I was suffering the shame and pain of rejection – ex homosexuality, and was craving for healing and a connection with a loving human, it would be Ellie. I would know that you would walk with me, weep with me, listen to me, pray with me, and not judge or reject me. You would tenderly touch my brokenness and give me hope. You would be as Christ to me. You may not feel called to a ministry as such, but, I suspect that God would not hesitate to bring someone to you who may need that kind of human touch. Your own trials might just be your richest assets – in God’s economy. God bless you. And thank you or sharing!!! Diane

I was in tears, as I wrote my thread. I constantly cried to God about the Church. What they did not realise was how much God, was present in my life and how much I revered him which I still do.After posting, I saw, you had all been busy writing threads.My Experience. With Psychiatric doctors nurses. Etc.I have been under Psychiatry and I was not listened to. I was wrongly diagnosed; if they had reduced the tablet I would have got better, instead they gave ECT.They realised two years later, while I was still sufferring. That instead of giving me ECT, that all they had to do at that time, was reduce and then remove the tablet that they said I had to take.I was made more ill through three tablets, misdiagnosed, given ECT, and suffered to the extreme with physical debilitation and short-term memory amnesia, I felt constantly suicidal, I could not go anywhere I was too ill, for more than 4 years. Until they finally took notice, of my even more worsening physical condition. One Psychiatrist, who is supposed to be one of the top psychiatrists in the country, did all of this to me.Apparently the day staff on the day ward did give their opinion, I believe this differed from the Psychiatrist’s, who went ahead with ECT. I now have a problem with my recall memory, which I already had through taking, one of those tablets before ECT.I am also now at risk because of the tablets, of developing other brain debilitating desease. We just have to wait and see if my brain deteriorates. It is serious but I thank God that i can also laugh at these rediculous cercumstances, under the name of medical care and of course the Manufacturers of tablets.Please God I truly ask you that these terrible things will not happen and that you will heal my brain of any damage.And restore to me life in abundance. Amen Glory to youAll this is why I have asked, as a Christian am I aloud to sue NHS Service.This was not just a mistake.My GP is in shock because. I actually went through many more side effects than I have written about.Two good Christian here in my home Town, who are reliable, have said yes I can sueAnother has said no.I have no trust, whatsoever in the, Department of Psychiatry. They have too much, un-questioned authority. They are a regime, they, are in charge.There is a Retired Christian Psychiatrist up North here and I believe more in the country. Who saw a lot, of patients in his time and trained a lot, of people to Council many kinds of problems. Perhaps Christian people might consider this kind of profession. To enable, people to come into the faith with Christian biblical way input I am not sure if fees have to be paid for this. I did not get to see any of them, as I could not get to the place where they hold this.ellieI look forward to the time, when God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and me, are going to have a wonderful journey.Hallelujah.

The sin of homosexuality is nothing compared to the awesomeness of God. Psychiatry is a hoax. Its a mans attempt to be God. No human will ever be able to heal anyones mind. Depression, anxiety, mental disorders, etc. are all results of sin on the part of the person or someone who has affected that person. Sin. There was no need for anti-depressants in the garden of eden. The Lord does not need us to fufill his tasks. We are placed on this planet for one reason alone. That is the total surrender of our lives in love and pure adoration and worship to him. Once we begin to think we deserve any kind of help besides what he offers we are being selfish and sinful. Purity and joy comes from redemption and sacrifice of our lives. Homosexuality is an abomination. Jesus had no patience for sin. Neither should we. Dont enable people. Dont make them believe they have time to start a "healing process" healing comes immediately when you renounce your sin. We are not promised tomorrow. The only way you can show love to people is by sharing truth. Dont coddle sinners. Be clear to them in love. There are no excuses that make sin "understandable" to God. Everyone has sin and excuses. Everyone has someone to blame. We are commanded to be lights. A light does not shelter darkness. It disperses it. To some it will seem that I am being col. Im not. I am being clear. Thats where a lot of Christians fail there neighbors. We MUST love people to the kingdom. That however does not involve making them feel good about their evil lives. We are commanded to HATE sin. Did you know that? LOVE the sinner HATE the sin. Be Honest. Jesus is not a pushover.

I thank God that I can also laugh at these ridiculous circumstances, under the name of medical care and of course the Manufacturers of tablets. Wow! Ellie, If you can laugh about it all, you must be filled with a lot of forgiveness. Several years ago our family went through a time of complete collapse- multiple illnesses, emotional exhaustion, educational collapse, etc. I’ll spare the details at this time, but I will say that early on in that “adventure” when I sensed that we would be involved with a lot of medical /health/educational/social professionals, I prayed a very silly prayer – rather spontaneously:“Lord may man fail, but may YOU get all the glory for what you are going to do in my family.” And God did a thorough job answering my prayer. He put us into a position where even the best helpers in the world could not help. In subsequent months just about every person failed us who could fail us - professional’s health workers, friends, relatives, church, pastors, teachers. Each time someone failed me, I remembered my prayer. That made it easier to forgive. And, yes, I too discovered that the church (esp leaders) was nothing that I had assumed. They did not have the answers, and were unable to understand what was happening. And through it all I found out for real that God could fill in every single role that exists: father, husband, physician, counsellor, advocate, friend, comforter, shepherd….. and there are many more. I do not regret going through those times, and I do not regret our involvement with anyone – even the ones who failed. They all had something very important to contribute.Experiences like this makes it possible for our lives to dovetail with others who are struggling – including those who have such a despised sin as homosexuality. My trial helped me see that I was just as sinful as them, because I too was depending on my flesh. PS: God, please work a miracle in Ellie's brain. May Ellie have the mind of Christ, filled with your peace as she rests in your care. Diane

Looka here, ZIONSLAVEThere is something you havent got about this healing etc. If there is a mound of life happenings for God to heal, I have heard it said that it would kill that person, if he healed all the layers at once. Meaning painfull layers, all at once would be a very giagantic pain to release, the person's physical being, could not withstand that much in one go. It depends on how many layers have got bunched together and also entangled with other matters. If that had been available, to be healed in one go. I would have welcomed that. then I would have had no need for on going healing of the layers. But then, I would not have learnt, about so many things that I now know. God wants you to learn to recieve his love and his commpassion, this will change a lot of what you believe. He is a Loving, careing, mighty God who loves you very much. AmenLive a bit more life and then come back and give us the lowdown on what happened and how you then feel about God and your walk with him.Take it easy look the way God looks upon his people he really cares, loves, can be so leanient, he is patient, its when you actually have real life living experience, through trials that you begin to appreciate his Love and his understanding of our circumstances. etc. He loves all of us. Amen.ellie.

Sister Diane wrote:If the church was good at understanding what's beneath the surface of people, and would minister to them appropriately, then there would be less need for the mental health profession. Sadly that is not the case. In fact, the opposite tends to be true. The mental health profession has to help set people free from damage they incurred in religous environments. (as you will see if you read further testimonies)I believe much of today's church is as it was before judgement came on the tribes of Ephraim.3 \tThe crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,\tWill be trampled underfoot; 4 \tAnd the glorious beauty is a fading flower\tWhich is at the head of the verdant valley,\tLike the first fruit before the summer,\tWhich an observer sees;\tHe eats it up while it is still in his hand. 5 \tIn that day the LORD of hosts will be\tFor a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty\tTo the remnant of His people, 6 \tFor a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,\tAnd for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate. 7 \tBut they also have erred through wine,\tAnd through intoxicating drink are out of the way;\tThe priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,\tThey are swallowed up by wine,\tThey are out of the way through intoxicating drink;\tThey err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 \tFor all tables are full of vomit and filth;\tNo place is clean.9 \t“Whom will he teach knowledge?\tAnd whom will he make to understand the message?\tThose just weaned from milk?\tThose just drawn from the breasts? 10 \tFor precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,\tLine upon line, line upon line,\tHere a little, there a little.” 11 \tFor with stammering lips and another tongue\tHe will speak to this people,Those who lead, those who say they know, only speak with stammering lips because they do not know about the healing promised to those who follow. Listen to the promise.Job 33:14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,\tYet man does not perceive it. 15 \tIn a dream, in a vision of the night,\tWhen deep sleep falls upon men,\tWhile slumbering on their beds, 16 \tThen He opens the ears of men,\tAnd seals their instruction. 17 \tIn order to turn man from his deed,\tAnd conceal pride from man, 18 \tHe keeps back his soul from the Pit,\tAnd his life from perishing by the sword. 19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones, 20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,\tAnd his soul succulent food. 21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen. 22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,\tAnd his life to the executioners. 23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,\tA mediator, one among a thousand,\tTo show man His uprightness, 24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;\tI have found a ransom’; 25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. 27 \tThen he looks at men and says,\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,\tAnd it did not profit me.’ 28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. 29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man, 30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life. The things spoken of above speak of the ways God chooses to heal those who would listen. Meditate on what the Scriptures say about God's work in man. Today we believe we have to depend on professionals trained to heal the mind or body because the priests of this generation are broken cisterns with stammering lips.Out of timeIn ChristJeff

at no time did I relinquish my control over how I proceeded.Dorcas, These words grabbed me. I have come to learn that good therapy, whether from a professional or a friend, Christian or not, always respects a person’s freedom to choose. It is not controlling. That is important, because, as was mentioned in the thread, The Devil Made me Do it, damaged people have lost their ability to choose. In order for healing to proceed, they must regain freedom of their will. And that takes time and a lot of loving, encouraging people in their lives - people who accept them where they are and don’t push them. Sadly this is where the church has caused perhaps more damage than in any other way. Zealous Christians have tried to push people into immediate outer conformity to godly ways, while leaving the inner soul in bondage. As long as the church is stuck there, it will never be able to help those with bondages like homosexuality. This short article by C Finn is very powerful – indeed very stirring. If only everyone could see what people hide underneath their tough outer shells, then they would have deep compassion. Please Hear what I am not saying

Sister DorcasI did not have the time yet to respond to your questions properly. My days are split up into coffee breaks and lunch breaks.The focus of the article spoke of those seeking help and it also spoke of testimonies which described people who grew to have strong loving relationships within heterosexual ordinances. The affirmation of health was based on a man being fulfilled through the relationship he has with a woman. I do not seek to minimize this testimony nor any other which describes this healing process. Yet what I have not heard much is how the love of God overcame sin. It is the love of God that cries out Abba Father in our hearts, this love only can free us from the bonds of sin. Again listen to Job 33:25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. I keep hearing of testimonies which speak of striving to have one's sexual desires satisfied by unnatural or natural sources. We know that fornication, adultery, and unnatural desires are outward manifestations of sin. We also know that Scripture teaches us that Satan tempts us through the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. All three of these methods can be applied by Satan to destroy us. Paul cries out, 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? What is Paul's solution? Romans 8 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. You see if all that we seek is to satisfy our sexual desires there is still emptiness. Jesus said to the woman at the well, you have had 5 husbands and now you are living with another. Jesus is pointing out to her that she will always find emptiness when she seeks fulfillment with the things of this world. Jesus promises her that if she drank of the water that He had to give her she would thirst no more. Sister Elle also spoke of men failing her. I believe God works in all who live by faith to seperate us from putting our faith in another human. I believe God continually works to decrease our faith in other men and women. What is the result of this work? We learn to take His yoke upon us. We learn of His humble and peaceful Spirit. We experience a love that overcomes Satan and this world. The very center of the Holy Scriptures say this to those who are being "called out of this world."Psalm 118:8 \tIt is better to trust in the LORD\tThan to put confidence in man. 9 \tIt is better to trust in the LORD\tThan to put confidence in princes. The only man that will never fail you is this man Jesus Christ. In ChristJeff

Hi,Thankyou to all for such encouraging scriptures and all.In all the recent threads, from you all.Amen. Praise you God.ellie.

Dont make them believe they have time to start a "healing process" healing comes immediately when you renounce your sinI believe that this statement was misinterperated and for that I am sorry. Here is the scripture verse that backs up my statement.2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.I also want anyone who is angry with me to understand that I probably have more knowledge of living than you realize. I do not think age is a factor in what portion of wisdom is given to Jahs children. I am not proud to say that my knowledge of the Holy is very much sharpened by my past experiences with the unholy. Sometime I will share my testimony on this site. I will not do that tho as a way to defend myself against attacks from people who are being so judgemental.Just to further clarify I will say that I understand that when we are affected by sin that there are things that will be a reminder of that later in life. I am not foolish enough to think that once we are redeemed that we will never be tempted again or that we will never again have struggles! Here is a passage from Paulus that may give you some clarification of The Almightys affect on a man who is filled with the Holy Spirit.Phl 3:12-15 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Heres an example of what this is saying....A boy and his father were buliding a table. When the boy had an opportunity he drove a nail into the wrong spot of the table intentionally just for fun. When the father saw it he was not pleased. He asked the boy why he did this thing. The boy could not answer because he was swept with guilt for his wrong doing. He began to cry. The father, seeing the boys emotion of repentance took the boy up in his arms and wiped the tears from his eyes. He then pulled the misplaced nail out of the table. He showed the boy that even tho the nail was removed there was still a tiny hole where it had been. He told the boy that he loved him and they completed thier work. One day a man caome to purchase the table. He asked the boys father about the tiny whole and the father told the buyer what had happened. The man then accepted the table into his house and as soon as he did the whole dissappeared.The nail is an example of a human regarding sin in thier heart. The father removing the nail is an example of Christs redemption through his Blood. The tiny hole is the example of the stains of sin left in our flesh after redemption and turning from that sin. The dissapearence of the hole in the buyers house is an example of our new bodies that will be given to us in Glory.

Zionslave no one wants to hurt you we doall get missunderstanings and read differently into thingsThat is how people would have seen, my very youngest brother about 8yrs ago. who....My brother 4yrs drugs and other years before, alcaholic, squating, in squates freezing in the winter etc Holland.Dreadlocks in his hair.Cuts on the arms as well as despair, depression, dying. Our fervent prayers were answered, truly a miracle. He stuggled for a year or so after. That was because of so much in life that he had lived through since 8yrs old. Dad Died. Two years later, Older Brother committed Suicide, we have brother with Bipolar. 10 years later another brother died. 4yrs later our nephew 21yrs old, died because of drugs. he was messed up with drugs in London where he lived. into allsorts. But his Dad, my Brother who commited suicde,when he was 5yrs old.So my brother came to the Lord and has been living and working at a christian church in Devon UK for the last 8years, without pay he trust in the Lord for his needs. He goes to do some work in Romania next Month.I have many sad stories to tell about Family Of all kinds.I am sure without any dought, that you have very much experience, including music things that are bad. My brother met demons in that life. Saw so much just LIKE YOU. God has brought you through, open your Heart, and your mind, and your spirit to God. And find the secrets he wants to impart to you. He has so much for to do, in this life for him. Let God prepare you.Have you been filled with the Holy Spirit. When you stopped all the drugs etc.He does say he will refine us, and that he will mould us, into what he needs, to lead us, gaurd us, guide us along. Your unique speacial Walk With Him, that he has for.I don't know where you are taught about the bible.Do'nt be shocked if something goes a little different, to what you think is happenning. That is what I meant. If things change and you need us please, let us know some on here will relate to your needs.Our needs don't end, all walking with God have come to know this, through many of lifes experienc's. that will come before us and God will lead you through.We are not here to hurt you but to help you.I would like to be one of the first to hear, what God has had you doing for him, as and when they happen. We look forward to your wonderful growth in Almighty God. Amen, Hallelua, Glory, God of all Power and Majesty. I give to you ZIONSLAVE, who is so grateful for what you have done and are going to do for him and with him Amen.ellie

Thanks ellie,I actually was thinking of you this morning. Asking the Lord to search my heart. I still have much to learn. I want to give a pure picture of Christ and his work, and a strong picture of His power. I was asking the Lord to show me if I was wrong about my comments about His healing. I always try to ask for guidance during my posts. I know people search these forums for truth. They need it like they need bread. They want something real. They need true love. Agape love. Its here. I know it his because of the strong testimony of the healing blood of the only begotten.Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.I am praying with you and your family. I appreciate you sharing that information about your struggles. Yes. The Lord is gracious. Christ is greater than all the demons and legions and realms of evil combined. The Spirit indeed is willing but the flesh is weak. It is easily baffled by the confusion of the lawless. However!!!,,,....WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERERS!!!!!!!!!! Much love to you and yours. Your brother needs prayer even now. What a place to serve! In the heart of evil. Selah.

QUOTE:ZIONSLAVEMuch love to you and yours. Your brother needs prayer even now. What does the following mean, I don't understand?Quote: What a place to serve! In the heart of evil. Selah.ellie

Only Eternity will reveal how many people you have helped with your Testimony.Thank-you for your Honesty.Hopefully, one day, I too, will feel free to share.Our God is Wonderful!He is a God of LOve.God Bless you, richly in Him.Nellie :-)

It just means that I beleive Europe to be the continent that is the most evil of all. And that it is an amazing thing that the Lord has thought your brother faithful enough to preach there.

Sister Dorcas,I agree with you, in that, God works through men and women to bring healing in all sorts of ways. I believe God uses non-believers to perform the things He has determined. This is all Scriptural. When I mentioned the thought of relying on the empty philosophies of men, I should have taken the time to be more clear. Sister wrote: While bearing in mind what 'normal' means (attraction towards the opposite) there can be a very wide range of differences of 'gender' - that is, what the individual has been cultivated to 'think' is normal. The connections between the 'thinking' and the being (which a normal person has never had disrupted) do need to be examined (even if only in the presence of God privately) before He can fix anything. Always, there are reasons people end up thinking weird things. The problem is that they've come to believe them and function abnormally. Psalm 11957 \tYou are my portion, O LORD;\tI have said that I would keep Your words. 58 \tI entreated Your favor with my whole heart;\tBe merciful to me according to Your word. 59 \tI thought about my ways,\tAnd turned my feet to Your testimonies. We all, we fallen and depraved individuals suffer from what is called rational thought. We are rational beings because we learn from one another. We experience fellowship with other fallen individuals. The 'substance" of what we hope for is the product of what we do and think. This is the carnal man. The carnal mind cannot please God. The carnal mind makes us an enemy of God. Listen to verse 59. "I thought about my ways and turned my feet your testimonies." God's testimonies are the "substance" which have replaced what was once hoped for by the writer of Psalm 119. Experiencing God caused him to consider his old ways. This man was enabled by God to see his own ways in light of God's influence in his life. The beauty of the truth is realize as one turns his feet towards God. This man also speaks of the hardships that come with salvation. Psalm 11965 \tYou have dealt well with Your servant,\tO LORD, according to Your word. 66 \tTeach me good judgment and knowledge,\tFor I believe Your commandments. 67 \tBefore I was afflicted I went astray,\tBut now I keep Your word. 68 \tYou are good, and do good;\tTeach me Your statutes. 71 \tIt is good for me that I have been afflicted,\tThat I may learn Your statutes. 72 \tThe law of Your mouth is better to me\tThan thousands of coins of gold and silver. 73 \tYour hands have made me and fashioned me;\tGive me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments. 74 \tThose who fear You will be glad when they see me,\tBecause I have hoped in Your word. 75 \tI know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right,\tAnd that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. This man has been freed from that which once held him in bondage to the carnal mind. As we too travel along the path we too will experience God's judgements, commands, and afflictions. Listen to his testimony. 120 My flesh trembles for fear of You,\t\tAnd I am afraid of Your judgments. Listen to his prayer.174 I long for Your salvation, O LORD,\t\tAnd Your law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise You;\t\tAnd let Your judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep;\t\tSeek Your servant,\t\tFor I do not forget Your commandments. Now a rational being without God's light will look upon this experience and ask how can this be good? He has not experienced the "substance" that is from God. A rational being cannot see that the "substance of what he hope for" is actually the very things that bind him. So whatever behavior that is termed "normal or abnormal" is the consequence of rational thought. Scripture gives us various pictures of past generations. What seemed normal in one generation was an abomination in another generation and viseversa. I live in California. I have witnessed the efforts of those who seek to convince this generation that those who practice homosexuality are normal and healthy. It is said that this next generation here in the U.S. already accepts this precept. So what is abnormal today will be normal tomorrow. This manifestation in Scripture always preceded God's judgement. Out of timeIn ChristJeff

Psalm 119:129 Your testimonies are wonderful;\t\tTherefore my soul keeps them. 130 The entrance of Your words gives light;\t\tIt gives understanding to the simple. 131 I opened my mouth and panted,\t\tFor I longed for Your commandments. 132 Look upon me and be merciful to me,\t\tAs Your custom is toward those who love Your name. 133 Direct my steps by Your word,\t\tAnd let no iniquity have dominion over me. In this thought of Scripture, this man speaks of God's wonderful testimonies. The source of this man's joy comes from understanding how God delivers one from bondage. It is the existence of this testimony which changes what this man hopes for. The light that God sheds upon this man is the means by which this man overcomes iniquity in his life. God's grace fills and satisfies the thirst of this man. It comes by understanding how God delivers us from that which binds us. Having begun to walk the ancient path with God, having tasted the freedom that understanding brings give us the desire for more of Him. This man's heart cries out, "133 Direct my steps by Your word,\t\tAnd let no iniquity have dominion over me."This man knows that within himself there is nothing that can free him from the bondage of the carnal life. He like Paul cries out, "24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" This precept is for every man and woman who enters into a relationship with God through His Son Jesus. God seeks to reveal His Son in us. The revelation of His Son, The Life, fills us with a love, a power that overcomes those things that seperate us from Him. Abiding in Him will cause our hearts to cry out Abba Father. We learn by living with Him. As Jesus' heart cried out for His Father so will all who walk with Him. This is the predestined work of God in those who inherit the promise. So can one who seeks help from those who don't believe in God help a believer overcome that which binds? Is the "substance" for what they hope for found in seeking to build one's self esteem or is the "substance" found outside of our self?Got to goIn ChristJeff

Dear GrannieAnnie,All that you have written is so, beautifully written and imparted to us of such a love of God, for us all.In that, his purpose being imparted to us, through the Holy Spirit of God, from God to us, for ourselves, and others.It is true and yes, I agree the word 'Hospital' sums it up.Your Testimony, of how God moved in your life that very day at the Church, is very moving and the simplicity of Gods love poured out to you.Compared to, the world of Christians who can prevent, Gods Mercy and Grace to freely flow. Because of our own complicated thoughts and ways of how we think and to instead, place it all before the Throne of God. To wait on Him, to receive his ways and thoughts, His Will be Done.Glory to god.I felt the gentleness of God toward me, as I read your Thread.ellie