Here's my take:New Orleans drowned itself in it's sin and flooded it's streets with it's wickedness decades ago. God has now physically revealed the spiritual destruction that it reaped upon itself long ago. The destruction of that single city was an act of God's mercy towards America as a whole. In order to save the body, you must at times amputate the diseased member. You can only openly flaunt your transgressions and tempt a Holy God in Heaven so long. Within days before the storm hit, New Orleans was going to be flooded with up to 100,000 homosexuals celebrating sodomy by publicly committing sexuals acts in public at the "Southern Decedance" festival. As Spurgeon once said, homosexuality once brought hell down from heaven. Although the homosexual community teaches and preaches tolerance, God does not buy into their teaching.
Was it Wrath?
When you have a city, a country, a nation and more importantly a Church that is flooded with every kind of sin imaginable, I think there can be little doubt about the wrath of God when something like this happens.
Let's not forget that this was a city that had it's streets flooded a hundred times deeper with gospel tracts then it was with water. It had rejected the gospel for decades.
why not head to the astrodome and preach the Love of Christ?....believe me , they've all ready felt the Chastisement of God.This would be much different than preaching outside of bars, these people have been BROKEN, show them how Jesus can put them back together.Neil
Really, i didnt know it was flooded with the Gospel.
I am told that they may bring some of the people to Dallas. If they do, I'll be sure to go with some other Christians and preach salvation from the judgment of God.
Hi Lazarus1719...!I'm not that certain that this was a storm resulting from God's wrath. Yes, it is true that God has sometimes poured out his wrath upon a place. But usually, God's wrath was performed by much more supernatural means. Even the earthquakes, famines and pestilence as recorded under the Old Covenant were carried out in a much more supernatural way. It is also quite interesting to note that God would have spared Sodom and Gommorah if ten righteous men had been found (Genesis 18:16-33). It is true that New Orleans is a city that is often filled with unrighteousness. But surely there were at least ten men who truly sought the Lord there -- along with the rest of southern Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. To scrutinize such a catastrophe as an act of God might be placing the blame on the wrong person. Remember, it was Satan who struck Job (and his family and belongings). It is possible that God allowed such a catastrophe to happen for a reason (perhaps to draw men closer to himself). But to blame God for such a disaster might be stretching it -- especially if we are not certain of this. God may not rejoice in being blamed for something that he did not do.In another Hurricane Katrina thread, someone mentioned what Jesus spoke in Luke 13:1-8. In it, Jesus seems to indicate that human judgment is often flawed when labeling a tragedy as an "act of wrath" upon unrighteousness.There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. :-)
they've FELT the Judgement of the Lord, preach the Love and the Comfort of Christ with softness and a soft voice, with tears and hugs and smiles and the Face of Jesus.It's graduation time Jesse.If you need busfare for Houston, you can PM me. It's Houston son, they are AT the Astrodome, broken and scared.It's Houston, and it's graduation time, I'm not talking out of my flesh.God is love, he who lives in love lives in God and God in him.
Neil,I agree. All I ever preach is love. God so loved the world that he died so we don't have to perish in sin, and perish in hell. We must preach true Salvation, deliverance from sin and from it's consequences, out of love. With both tears in our eyes and tears in our voice. We must preach Christ and Him crucified to save sinners. Amen!ps. I would not equate New Orleans to Job. And God would have spared Sodom and Gommorah for 10 righteous, at Abrahams request, but neither Sodom, Gommorah, nor New Orleans have been spared. How worse could New Orleans have gotten? If God wouldn't pour His wrath out on that city, what city would he pour His wrath upon?
yes...He's poured out His wrath, now it's time to bind up the wounds. They will be receptive and quickened.Houston.
My heart is much grieved, and my soul wracked with sorrow. These people have lost everything. And now for them to gain the One who is Everything, they must also lose their sin.
I don't know if this was an act of God's wrath or not. Who am I to say? It seems to me though, that if Jesus died for all sin, then why would He be angry over sin? Did not Jesus carry the punishment of all? Isaiah 54:9 (NRSV)This is like the days of Noah to me: Just as I swore that the waters of Noah would never again go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you and will not rebuke you.
wow, i never seen that verse nor heard anyone say that verse. Wow.I wanna copy it again to just speak it again! beenblake wrote:Isaiah 54:9 (NRSV)This is like the days of Noah to me: Just as I swore that the waters of Noah would never again go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you and will not rebuke you.Praise God. (As Iron sharpens Iron, so does one man another)
Read on in Isaiah 54, and you'll see to whom He speaks:"In righteousness you shall be established...no weapon formed against you shall prosper..this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is from me, says the Lord.He is saying that, though He was angry with His people, He would turn back to them because He loved them. How did He do this? He did it in the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.Yet, how deplorable is the condition of man who allows sin to keep him from salvation in Christ! Wouldn't you be deeply grieved and angered if one cord snared a friend under water, stealing all chances of life? Likewise, Christ hates sin. That is why God says, "Whom the Lord loves He chastens (punishes), and scourges every son whom He receives...for what son is he whom the father doesn't chasten?" (Heb. 12:6,7)So, Christ hates sin, and must deal with sin, but that is so "we might be partakers of His holiness." (Heb. 12:10) A teacher once said, "People learn from pain." He was right, since we know that lightning and fire burn, blades cut, and falling off roofs brake bones. Yet, it is from these lessons that wisdom and understanding are attained, though we don't like the method. Let us then heed God's warnings, thereby escaping punishment! God be merciful with us, a people of stubborn hearts.
Paul thanks for doing that (i didnt look up the verse when i wrote that), but i clicked on some referances to that verse and it kinda points to a shadow of a 'fathers disciplain' to sum it up."Anger is but vapor".References
Yesh:May we always dwell in such favor, then. God's tender mercy is such a kindness which few allow to deeply root itself in their souls. "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord." (Lam. 3:26) Too often we instead complain and go about our own ways, neglecting to seek the Lord's provision (Ex. 15:22-225) He has already known what we would need in every situation according to this passage about the tree, for it would have been there long before they reached Mara. Such a wonderful God we serve! May He open our eyes and heart to receive of His guidance.
How worse could New Orleans have gotten? If God wouldn't pour His wrath out on that city, what city would he pour His wrath upon?I will not say 'it was not God's wrath'; I don't have the discernment to do so. I do question whether or not anyone has the authority to label this 'wrath'. If this was wrath, what was Hiroshima or Auschwitz or the Tsunami? Many Christians perished in these events as I suspect they have in the Gulf coast. This would seem to be very indiscriminate 'wrath' when sinner and saint get it in the same moment.What city would he not pour out his wrath on? “If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?”(Psa. 130:3, KJVS)“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” (2Pet. 2:9, KJVS)Is He reserving the unjust unto the day of judgement or is He hitting one or two spots ahead of schedule?
Sorry this is the wrong post.so I have removed this content.ellie
Here's something to think about... New Orleans was set to host a HUGE gay & lesbian gathering this weekend. The city council was set to vote this past Tuesday to consider outlawing street preaching and Christian protests against the gathering......and now look at New Orleans.Krispy
Philologos brings up a good point. I agree with this statement: "to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment."It seems to me that if God was going to punish the homosexuals, he would have waited to send the Hurricane on the day of the actual event when all the people would have arrived. Logically, that would seem to be the most effective. Rather, the whole city is suffering? Would not God save His own children first, and warn them to flee from the city as He did with Lot?Not to mention, the majority of people who are dying are the weak, elderly, and lame. A friend of mine said in response to the Hurricane, "The earth is having birth pains." Something to consider.Blake
Rather, the whole city is suffering? Would not God save His own children first, and warn them to flee from the city as He did with Lot?Let me ask you then... since God is obviously in control of the weather... why did the hurricane happen at all? Why did God sweep up the evil AND the good?Not to mention that destruction like this always leads to some sort of revival on some scale. A lot of people will find Jesus because of this.Krispy
Hey Krispy,The Hurricane happened because a sailor out in the sea sneezed, and in the process sent a warm wind into the ocean that charged up the water causing it to snowball into a tremendous storm.God is god, and He is responsible for all things, good and bad. He would not be an all-powerful God otherwise. However, whether this storm was a result of His direct or indirect influence or command, I cannot say. I do not know. I do trust God will use it for good. (Romans 8:28) By that, this will probably help many people to see thier need for Jesus and turn to Him. (Although, even in that, who am I to say?)Blake
Dear Philologos,I feel silly writing this after my last post, but what do you think about these scriptures:2 Peter 2:9 (NASB) "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,"2 Peter 2:9 (NLT) "So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while punishing the wicked right up until the day of judgment."2 Peter 2:9 (NRSV)then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgmentThe King James version makes it seem like God is waiting until the day of Judgement to execute judgement. However, these scriptures provide an entirely different interpretation. I am not sure what to think. This is just an observation. Blake
The King James version makes it seem like God is waiting until the day of Judgement to execute judgement. However, these scriptures provide an entirely different interpretation. Beenblake... I dont wanna sound like I am picking on you... but why search out a bunch of versions of the Bible until you find one that supports your point??I disagree with how you're interpretting the KJV in this instance. If you take everything in context then you get the whole picture.Krispy
I thought it might be profitable to look at some of the issues underyling this in a non-katrina-specific way. I will not sustain a monologue so if this things interest you please come and talk.God, judgement and the 'nation state'.
BlakeThe KJV has 2Pet. 2:9 (KJVS) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: This next translation is older than the NASB more literal: “The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,” (2Pet. 2:9, YNG)The verses are making a comparison between the 'godly' and the 'unjust'. The preposition 'to' that I have underlined above means towards or with a view to... it can have the sense of the goal towards which the verb is moving the sense of the sentence. So the verse says that God is guarding or keeping a watch on the ungodly. For what purpose? the day of judgement. 2 Peter 2:9 (NASB) "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment," The NASB and the other translations that follow this line are trying to do justice to the verb translated 'being punished' by Youngs Literal Translation. The verb is in the form 'present, passive, participle, accusative; a present participle implies something which is going on currently, so Young's 'being punished' is a good translation.The NASB and friends has attached the idea of 'continual punishment' to what God is 'watching over' where the KJV and friends has attached the idea of 'continual punishment' to the consequence of the 'judgment day'. The question is 'is the continual punishment' was God is watching over currently, or is the 'continual punishment' linked to the judgement day.Robinson's Word Pictures has this commentUnder punishment (kolazomenous). Present passive participle of kolazO, old verb (from kolos, lopped off), in N.T. only here and Ac 4:21. Present tense emphasises continuity of the punishment. See kolasin aiOnion in Mt 25:46.If I were trying to paraphrase it, I would say something likeThe Lord has known how to rescue the godly ones out of temptation, and, on the other hand, how to watchfully guard the unrighteous on their way to judgement day's continual punishment.
The Lord has known how to rescue the godly ones out of temptation, and, on the other hand, how to watchfully guard the unrighteous on their way to judgement day's continual punishment.So could we say that the judgement of God is already on mankind since the fall...and that what appears as an act of fury is really a pause from God's abundant grace that ultimately serves to remind the human race of our true position before God? In other words, without responding to the gracious heart of God that gave His Son to receive the full wrath of judgement for our sin, Katrina would be the least that we deserve.So rather then these events "crying out" or "speaking" against the isolated sin of New Orleans, or any other geographic people, these events demonstrate the death that is a consequence of sin and guilt, as well as a foreshadow of the judgment to come if we do not repent and believe the Gospel.When I see the devastation of this hurricane, the broken levvies and vast flooding, the fires, the death and suffering, the murder, rape, and looting I do not imagine the "hand" of God reaching out to strike us. On the contrary, this is the removal of God's hand. This is a glimpse of the world as man would surely cause it to be; a vision of creation groaning for the glory of God.I'm thinking of some of Jonathan Edwards's words from His famous Sinners in the Hand sermon, "Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they will not bear their weight, and these places are not seen... Eccles. 2:16. How dieth the wise man? even as the fool. ...In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of; all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged forbearance of an incensed God."
Thank you Philologos. That was very insightful. It does seem a bit odd to me to think God is exercising punishment on anyone right now considering what Jesus did on the cross. Jesus died for the sins of all. If all of sin was satisfied by Jesus death, if He truly was the ultimate sacrifice for all of sin, then why would God punish anybody? I do realize that some people might then say, "Well, if that's true, then how do people goto Hell? How is Jesus able to judge anyone at the time of judgement?"People goto Hell by not believing in Jesus which means they don't accept what He did on the cross. I suppose you could call this a sin, the sin that leads to death as John talks about in 1 John 5. And so, even though all sins are forgiven, a person still needs to accept forgiveness in order to be forgiven. Even still, as you pointed out by the scripture above, the time of judgement has not come yet. Thanks again,Blake
Hi beeblake,There is a very short verse, here, to answer your near question...People goto Hell by not believing in Jesus which means they don't accept what He did on the cross. I suppose you could call this a sin John 16 Jesus speaking...7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
philologos,Your interpretation of 2 Peter 2:9 is wrong. What do you do with Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts? This was after the resurrection of Christ. What do you do with the 19 very specific judgments to be poured out on the Earth over an unspecified period of time in the Book of Revelations?In order for your interpretation of 2 Peter 2:9 to be correct you would have to cut out a part of Act and pretty much the entire Book of Revelations.God is the same yesterday today and forever. The God of wrath of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. The God of the old covenant is the same God of the new covenant.
Dearest BrethrenFor us here in SA, New Orleans is now on the map. I never knew that it was such a wicked place. Indeed like Sodom. I agree with some of you to take the Gospel and I agree that one should preach the love of God, but do not let a human compassion (because of their intense suffering) make you refrain from preaching repentance like our Lord did. These people will be sinners destined for hell untill they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.May the Lord save some, for where there is life there is also hope. The people of Sodom and Gomora did not have the opportunity to repent!!In His love,Gery
Gery wrote:Quote - b]"I agree that one should preach the love of God, but do not let a human compassion (because of their intense suffering) make you refrain from preaching repentance like our Lord did. These people will be sinners destined for hell untill they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."[/b]Thank you for this warning. You are absolulty correct and I am afraid many who are ministering to these people will fall into this trap.[
if He truly was the ultimate sacrifice for all of sin, then why would God punish anybody? The NT is full of the judgment of God. The book of Acts mentions the death of Ananias and Sapharia. Then there is Paul being struck blind. There is also Herod being struck dead for not giving glory to God. A magician that also opposed Paul's preaching was struck with blindness. The cross of Christ did not stay God's hand in striking out in judgment against individuals and nations.
Also, it should be noted that while God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah had 10 righteous been found in it, that this is not always how God worked. When Jerusalem fell, there were many righteous in it, such as the prophet Jeremiah. I can't recall the exact way the verse goes, but I do believe if memory serves correct, there is a verse in one of the prophets where the prophet laments how the righteous are cut off and slain along with the unrighteous.These are no doubt complicated matters. I think instead of speculating too much, we should seriously seek the word of the Lord to hear what He is saying right now.
Elijah was told that there were 7000 others yet there was still 3 years without rain for everyone.In Christ,GaryE
Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 10 that the stories contained in the OT are given to us as examples so that we should not stumble as the nation of Israel did. If one were to read the book of Amos one would find many striking similarities between then and now. Here are just a few verses.Amos 3:6 \tIf a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?\tIf there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?Amos 3:11 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:\t“An adversary shall be all around the land;\tHe shall sap your strength from you,\tAnd your palaces shall be plundered.” Amos 4:1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan, who are on the mountain of Samaria,\tWho oppress the poor,\tWho crush the needy,\tWho say to your husbands, “Bring wine, let us drink!” 2 \tThe Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness:\t“Behold, the days shall come upon you\tWhen He will take you away with fishhooks,\tAnd your posterity with fishhooks. 3 \tYou will go out through broken walls,\tEach one straight ahead of her,\tAnd you will be cast into Harmon,”\tSays the LORD. 4 \t“Come to Bethel and transgress,\tAt Gilgal multiply transgression;\tBring your sacrifices every morning,\tYour tithes every three days. 5 \tOffer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven,\tProclaim and announce the freewill offerings;\tFor this you love,\tYou children of Israel!”\tSays the Lord GOD. 6 \t“Also I gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities.\tAnd lack of bread in all your places;\tYet you have not returned to Me,”\tSays the LORD. 7 \t“I also withheld rain from you,\tWhen there were still three months to the harvest.\tI made it rain on one city,\tI withheld rain from another city.\tOne part was rained upon,\tAnd where it did not rain the part withered. 8 \tSo two or three cities wandered to another city to drink water,\tBut they were not satisfied;\tYet you have not returned to Me,”\tSays the LORD. 9 \t“I blasted you with blight and mildew.\tWhen your gardens increased,\tYour vineyards,\tYour fig trees,\tAnd your olive trees,\tThe locust devoured them;\tYet you have not returned to Me,”\tSays the LORD. 10 \t“I sent among you a plague after the manner of Egypt;\tYour young men I killed with a sword,\tAlong with your captive horses;\tI made the stench of your camps come up into your nostrils;\tYet you have not returned to Me,”\tSays the LORD. 11 \t“I overthrew some of you,\tAs God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,\tAnd you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning;\tYet you have not returned to Me,”\tSays the LORD. 12 \t“Therefore thus will I do to you, O Israel;\tBecause I will do this to you,\tPrepare to meet your God, O Israel!” 13 \tFor behold,\tHe who forms mountains,\tAnd creates the wind,\tWho declares to man what his thought is,\tAnd makes the morning darkness,\tWho treads the high places of the earth—\tThe LORD God of hosts is His name. In ChristJeff
So could we say that the judgement of God is already on mankind since the fall...and that what appears as an act of fury is really a pause from God's abundant grace that ultimately serves to remind the human race of our true position before God? In other words, without responding to the gracious heart of God that gave His Son to receive the full wrath of judgement for our sin, Katrina would be the least that we deserve.One of the struggles I have trying to explain my thoughts on this is caused by the different ways that we use this word 'judgement'. A 'judgement' is really the verdict; guilty or not guilty. However we tend to use the word 'judgement' as always meaning the execution of the sentence. God judging the person or the nation begins with God assessing them; but against what criteria? We say that 'they' have heard the gospel, but Peter refers to the 'gospel preached with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven' and I wonder if 'they' have heard that gospel. Is the gospel preached 'without' the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven really the gospel? Will God hold men responsible for not responding to men's words?There is a condemnation (this is the sentence and its execution) which has already passed upon all men. “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.” (Rom. 5:16, KJVS) Adam's race has already been judged and sentenced. "In the day that thou eatest thereof dying thou shalt die." "By one man sin entered into the world and death by sin." (Rom 5:12) The sentence has been executed; the race died in Adam.But there is another judgement which comes as a result of personally rejecting the testimony of Jesus Christ. “He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.” (John 3:18-19, ASV) I have gone for the ASV here because it is more precise in its translation and gives 'judgement' rather that 'condemnation'. The man or woman who rejects the testimony of Jesus Christ is already judged as guilty. (our testimony about Jesus Christ is not necessarily the 'testimony of Jesus Christ'.) The sentence which goes with this 'judgement' is 'to perish'; John 3:16. So we already have two judgements 'against' us. That which is as result of Adam and, if we have rejected 'The Light', the second judgement. But I think when folks talk about current 'judgements' they are talking about a third judgement. This is for some gross sin usually and the sentence is executed before the guilty party even knows the trial has taken place and a verdict given. This whole scenario perplexes me! The problem is that some of the most gross sinners have died in their beds surrounded by every comfort; When I see the devastation of this hurricane, the broken levvies and vast flooding, the fires, the death and suffering, the murder, rape, and looting I do not imagine the "hand" of God reaching out to strike us. On the contrary, this is the removal of God's hand. This is a glimpse of the world as man would surely cause it to be; a vision of creation groaning for the glory of God. I think this is a significant shift of focus, but I am not sure that it shifts enough for my understanding of things. God may indeed 'remove his protective hand' and then people may become vulnerable to many hostile forces which surround us. Is there something of this in biblical excommunication where the protective hedge of the 'church' is removed and the unrepentent 'given over to Satan'. Although even this seems to be remedial in that the purpose of the 'given over to Satan' is for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved.Perhaps in this sense Tsunamis and Katrinas are a mercy in disguise in the way that many careless may seek God. And yet I struggle with the idea of Christian mothers pleading with God for the saving of their babies, if such things are a visitation of God or even his expressly 'permitted' will. Keep talking...
What do you do with Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts? This was after the resurrection of Christ. I am not talking about the judging of the church. That continues. What do you do with the 19 very specific judgments to be poured out on the Earth over an unspecified period of time in the Book of Revelations?That is the coming judgement.So, I'll hang on to Acts and the Revelation for the time being, if you don't mind.
The NT is full of the judgment of God. The book of Acts mentions the death of Ananias and Sapharia. Then there is Paul being struck blind. There is also Herod being struck dead for not giving glory to God. A magician that also opposed Paul's preaching was struck with blindness. The cross of Christ did not stay God's hand in striking out in judgment against individuals and nations.Now how did 'nations' creep into this little list? ;-)
3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.God loves the world Mt 5:22 - Show ContextBut I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.We can get bogged down in judgement as God is a just judge but he has more to his nature than just judgement!!Jude 1:23 - Show ContextAnd others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Re 14:6 - Show ContextAnd I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and peopleHE is bringing the everlasting gospel at the end Ro 2:4 - Show ContextOr despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?Read this it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance I think it is us who has to sort our own lives out!1Lu 19:10 - Show ContextFor the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.Luke 13: 1 - 35 - Study This Chapter 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?/b> 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners F35 above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.Matthew 24: 1 - 51 - Study This Chapter 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. This is happening now!!9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with F46 a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut F47 him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. We need Jesus I have put these up because Gods judgement is love Mt 3:2 - Show ContextAnd saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.It is so heavy reading about judgement but it says those that know there god will do great exploits!!I think the way we read the bible effects are views even mine!!!Jude 1:8-14 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,Read this it is powerful. The lord rebuke you was something that the Lord said when rebuking satan!!God bless you1Jo 4:16 - Show ContextAnd we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.1Jo 4:20 - Show ContextIf a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?Isa 60:19 - Show ContextThe sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.1Co 4:5 - Show ContextTherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God2Co 4:4 - Show ContextIn whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.2Co 4:6 - Show ContextFor God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.1Jo 1:5 - Show ContextThis then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.Re 21:11 - Show ContextHaving the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;Re 21:23 - Show ContextAnd the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Re 22:5 - Show ContextAnd there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.Should not we love our brothers to turn them from sin and humble ourselves!! I have been trying to refer you to the Glory of our god!! He is the one who can move the thunderstorm!!
Keep talking...I am still trying to work this national judgment theory out. I remember first learning from a lawyer that the government sees a business much like a person; a legal entity with a name, a number, as well as rights and responsibilities. In this manner, is a country or a city considered a legal entity by God, just like an individual? Can we properly say of New Orleans that God has punished “her”?Some 200 years ago my ancestors were under British rule. Does that mean my family would have had a portion of any potential wrath reserved for Britain? If my family while still being under King George, had become geographically distant colonialists, would that lessen their portion? Once my family became “American”(poof!) does that mean my family would be exempt from punishment reserved only for British citizens? What if someone has dual citizenships…is this double jeopardy? My confusion is not over God’s right or His willingness to issue wrath, but over so-called national or corporate wrath. I think trying to explain to a mother that her child had to die because there was a shameless celebration of homosexuality downtown makes preaching to her about personal responsibility almost impossible. “In those days they shall say no more, 'The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge'. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
My confusion is not over God’s right or His willingness to issue wrath, but over so-called national or corporate wrath. Mine too and over the readiness of believers to label natural disasters as 'wrath' with the implied judgement of some as ungodly that this involves. It would be interesting to know if any believers actually caught up in the Tsunami or Katrina feel they have been the subject of God's wrath. It is one thing to sit at our terminals making these judgements but, I suspect, quite another when you hold your drowned baby in your arms. I don't write this last sentence with any sense of harshness but with a deep grief that I think our heavenly Father may be being slandered in these things.
It would be interesting to know if any believers actually caught up in the Tsunami or Katrina feel they have been the subject of God's wrath. It is one thing to sit at our terminals making these judgements but, I suspect, quite another when you hold your drowned baby in your arms.Will not God be ministering His comfort to those who know Him, even if it was 'wrath' on the ungodly?My sense of disaster-weariness may be rooted in a lifetime's awareness of how weather contributes to the death of the righteous. People who live in regions of the world where drought, famine, or monsoon regularly cause pockets of local disaster, don't leave home after they come to know God, just because their area is vulnerable to such natural events. They expect to find God with them in whatever He allows to their situation. In some places, this includes endemic disease. I think of missionaries whose wives and children died in such conditions.Katrina was sudden by comparison with last year's European heatwave, or the very cold winters which take more of the vulnerable elderly than other winters, but we don't immediately attribute those weather effects to God's wrath. Even so, sometimes when an individual dies in certain circumstances, one feels it is God who is drawing the line, because one always knows testimony of those who came within a hair's breadth of the same end, whom God saved and their physical life.Perhaps this is more of a case of 'such knowledge' is 'too wonderful' for us. And I wonder if those who are genuinely feeling from God, that Katrina represents 'wrath' on their personal life do have a guilty conscience; in other words, as you suggest, philologos, it is more a matter of perception, which only God can enliven to those whom He will - therefore, any objective conclusion is inevitably an over-simplification.
I have not said that I "know" without any doubts that this was the wrath of God nor that "God told me" it was. Rather I personally believe that it was God's judgment. I believe that when the Major invited 100,000 homosexuals for a sodomy party, he was inviting the destruction of his own city. There is a time when God is angered to action. It's a devistating and heart breaking thought to think about, but things like that happen."Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?" Amos 3:6 (ESV)
Hello...!This storm is almost as bad as several other hurricanes that hit during the 19th and 20th centuries. I wonder if people argued whether or not those were results of the wrath of God?By the way, let me encourage everyone to continue to intercede for New Orleans (and Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama and Florida). The spiritual need far exceeds the physical need. Perhaps many will turn to the Lord through this disaster. :-)
I read in a Wilkerson book that when London burned down, John Owen (Puritan who wrote "Justification by Faith" etc) preached that it was the wrath of God; punishment for the wickedness of the city.
Hi Lazarus1719...!I found this article in the Friday, September 2nd, edition of USA Today:New Orleans puts visitors on hold into fallBy Gene SloanUSA TodayNew Orleans tourism officials who are grappling with the devastation across the city are telling visitors that it will be closed for months."Only the next few weeks will determine whether tourism will begin rebounding in late October or early November, or whether it is pushed into early next year," says Stephen Perry, president of the New Orleans Metropolitan Convention & Visitors Bureau....The irony is that the city's main tourist area, the fun-focused French Quarter, is one of the few places relatively unaffected by flooding because it's on high ground. Early reports are that many hotels are in decent shape (some even remain open, housing reporters and officials). But with residential areas turned upside-down, and residents not expected to return for months, it'll be tough to get the bars of Bourbon Street and shops of Royal Street open. "The tourist infrastructure is standing up well and will rebound before the rest of the city," notes Perry. But "the great issue is when the city will have basic services back to manage visitors. We will all work hard to make sure the time frame is pushed as early as possible, but only if public safety and basic human issues have been addressed."It seems that if this was a result of the wrath of God, then it wasn't quite good enough to stop the tourist industry (and thus, the party areas) of the city. If it was an act of God, don't you think that it would have been this area affected, rather than the residential areas? Instead, the opposite has occurred.I don't know whether or not this is part of God's wrath or judgment. It may indeed be a sign of the times. However, I think that we should be rather careful on how we blame God for such events or disasters (especially since it is still quite possible that God did not perpetrate this action). Instead, of arguing whether or not this was an act of God, our focus should be to intercede for those affected (including the innocent children and elderly). :-) *EDIT*Here is the link for the article:http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-09-01-katrina-tourism_x.htm
I read in a Wilkerson book that when London burned down, John Owen (Puritan who wrote "Justification by Faith" etc) preached that it was the wrath of God; punishment for the wickedness of the city.Some did see it so. Some saw as a punishment for the Act of Uniformity that drove preachers like Matthew Henry from London. It also effectively stopped the plague in its tracks, so some saw it as ultimately a blessing.Some Jews saw Auschwitz as God's judgement on an unbelieving Israel trying to re-establish a homeland before the Messiah came. Some saw it as God's judgement for assimilating with the Gentiles.I remain unconvinced that these things represent God's wrath in action.
We went from a hurricane, to flooding, to fires, to pestilences and disease.I wouldn't "blame" God for anything. God is never at fault, and is never to be "blamed". If this was an act of God, it is no mark on his character or integrity, God is Holy and Just.
I didnt think about that and have been mulling it over about judgement and Jesus and I was thinking of Jeremiah!! How he predicted what was going to happen!! What you say is thought out well, we could be next!!I would rather someone broadcast it first before on sermonindex about Katrina!! If we are godly people I would rather listen to the broadcasts from the Throne Room than other stations!! There has been so much stuff going on with London then this and Israel it is too much for me to take in and my mind cant take it!! I need Jesus where is going to be nextI need jesus Dom
Friday evening I went out into the streets to do some open air preaching, and felt led of the Lord to make the disaster that be-fell New Orleans the topic of the sermon (I recorded it for any who are interested in hearing it). Being that when I do open-air, there is some risk involved in my preaching, and I am always DEAD serious about what I say it when I say it. I don't simply go out as one who has chosen to express rather loudly their own private religious views. I always seek the Lord on what to preach before I preach, and did so in this case. I preached with a burden, and could still hear the echo's of David Wilkerson's famous 9-11 sermon in the back of my thoughts, "The Towers Have Fallen- But have we heard the message?" I preached that I believe that God did have His hand on this situation. I recalled how once there was a kitchen fire in my house, and as the fire burned I dashed up the stairs to wake my father up who was sleeping, to tell him to wake up for the house was on fire. I put my hand on him and started to shake him hard, speaking earnestly that the house was on fire and that he needed to wake up. After much prayer and reflection, I firmly believe that is what God is doing right now. God is attempting to wake us up. Our nation is in the hands of God right now, and He is shaking us, urging us to wakeup. ARISE O SLEEPER; AWAKE!; AND LET CHRIST SHINE HIS FACE UPON YOU! I believe right now this nation is experincing a shaking. God has shaken us with 9-11. God has shaken us with two wars. God has shaken us with Katrina. God is shaking, and will continue to shake. I believe He is trying to wake us up. Too many prayers of too many righteous, many more righteous than I, have ascended before God's throne for this nation. He cannot simply let us idly sleep and perish in the fire that threatens to consume us all. So instead He shakes. He will continue to shake. We will see yet more terrors, more storms, more wars. I preached on how deep our sleep is. Think about it for a moment. An entire city was wiped off the face of the planet, tens of thousands of lives lost, and though it is the big news story, in reality, it hardly phases us and we hardly take notice. Instead our biggest concern seems to be the soaring gas prices as a result of Katrina, and how this will mess up our precious Labor Day plans. How hard of a nation we must be. How deep our sleep.Let's wakeup.
I'd like to hear it. That's encouraging to hear.Blessings Bro.