Who or what is 'the god of this world'?

That old serpent, the devil. He has dominion over the cursed earth, that is, until the angel lays hold upon him (Rev 20:2).

"the god of this age" Some believe this refers God and not the evil one. I am inclined to agree. For one reason, the gods of any age have no power to do anything. They are dead. Also, there are several references that speak of God himself dulling, blinding, and making deaf those who have hardened themselves to him. ex "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eye so that they could not see...ears so that they could not hear" Rom. 11:7 This is a form of divine judgment that nonrepentant sinners vulnerable to Satan's deceptions.Perhaps one reason God blinds them is so that they won't be able to succeed without him, so that they would hopefully eventually realize that they need him.I fear that if we blame Satan for dulling our senses, we will not accept our own responsibility. We will not understand God's judgments (ie consequences for our choices), and we will not see our need to repent.Diane

Is it Disobedienceellie

Dorcas,His is a list of the outworkings of Satan, the father of lies (according to John 8:44):1) Questioning (twisting) of the Word of God: Gen 3b "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"2) Lies to make us deify ourselves: Gen 3:4 and 5 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."3) Weakening (trembling/shaking) of nations: Isaiah 14:12 and 16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!...They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake the nations"4) Destruction: continued from above "That did make the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of the prisoners?" 5) Pride: Ezek 28:13a and 17 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."6) Disobediance: Eph 2:2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."7) Blindess to the gospel (distration, corrupton): 2 Cor 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."8) Blasphemy via denial of God in the flesh: 1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."9) Deception of the whole world: Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."It is interesting that my computer completely freaked out while I was previewing and editing this post, and the window ended up closing. Thankfully, I had copied it just in case that happened. Yes, Satan is a deceiver, and he doesn't want anyone to know it.

Can I put it to you that sometimes individuals take action which has the effect of bringing darkness upon themselves?Exactly. When people refuse to follow God, he no longer reveals his truths, or enlightens their minds. Does that sound like divine judgment - consequence for sin? There are just too many references in both testaments that speak of God dulling the mind, deafening the ears, blinding the eyes, that I cannot accept that Satan does it (which the verse does not say) Satan can lead us astray, but it is God who brings about judgments. If you wish to check out more of my thoughs on this, here is an article. The Dulling of the MindDiane

God uses Satan to do just that: 'dull our minds.' God doesn't do that personally. God directs Satan and Satan's unclean angels to do so. God is a lamp unto our feet, but as Romans 1 puts it, He gives us up to unclean lusts. Notice in the beginning of Job how Satan asks permission to hurt Job. Notice how the Scripture says that God sent and is sending spirits against people. Num 5:30 "Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law."1 Kings 22:21 "And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him."2 Chr 18:20 "Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?"and 22 "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee."Job 2:7 "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."Isaiah 29:10 "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered."Hosea 4:12 "My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God."Luke 4:33 "And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice"Acts 16:16 "And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying"Rom 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."2 Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."1 John 4:6 "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."Satan and all his demons are God's tools, and I agree we are accountable. We are accountable to God to listen to Him, and to resist the devil with God's help.

Lengthy but,2Co 4:4 - In whom - In respect to whom; among whom; or in whose hearts. The design of this verse is to account for the fact that the glory of the gospel was not seen by them. It is to be traced entirely to the agency of him whom Paul here calls “the god of this world.”The god of this world - There can be no doubt that Satan is here designated by this appellation; though some of the fathers supposed that it means the true God, and Clarke inclines to this opinion. In Joh_12:31, he is called “the prince of this world.” In Eph_2:2, he is called “the prince of the power of the air.” And in Eph_6:12, the same bad influence is referred to under the names of “principalities, and powers,” “the rulers of the darkness of this world,” and “spiritual wickedness in high places.” The name “god” is here given to him, not because he has any divine attributes, but because he actually has the homage of the people of this world as their god, as the being who is really worshipped, or who has the affections of their hearts in the same way as it is given to idols. By “this world” is meant the wicked world; or the mass of people. He has dominion over the world. They obey his will; they execute his plans; they further his purposes, and they are his obedient subjects. He has subdued the world to himself, and was really adored in the place of the true God; see the note on 1Co_10:20. “They sacrificed to devils and not to God.” Here it is meant by the declaration that Satan is the god of this world:(1) That the world at large was under his control and direction. He secured the apostasy of man, and early brought him to follow his plans; and he has maintained his scepter and dominion since. No more abject submission could be desired by him than has been rendered by the mass of people.(2) the idolatrous world particularly is under his control, and subject to him; 1Co_10:20. He is worshipped there; and the religious rites and ceremonies of the pagan are in general just such as a mighty being who hated human happiness, and who sought pollution, obscenity, wretchedness, and blood would appoint; and over all the pagan world his power is absolute. In the time of Paul all the world, except the Jews and Christians, was sunk in pagan degradation.(3) he rules in the hearts and lives of all wicked people - and the world is full of wicked people. They obey him, and submit to his will in executing fraud, and rapine, and piracy, and murder, and adultery, and lewdness; in wars and fightings; in their amusements and pastimes; in dishonesty and falsehood. The dominion of Satan over this world has been, and is still almost universal and absolute; nor has the lapse of 1,800 years rendered the appellation improper as descriptive of his influence, that he is the god of this world. The world pursues his plans; yields to his temptations; neglects, or rejects the reign of God as he pleases; and submits to his scepter, and is still full of abomination cruelty, and pollution, as he desires it to be.Hath blinded the minds of them which believe not - Of all who discern no beauty in the gospel, and who reject it. It is implied here:(1) That the minds of unbelievers are blinded; that they perceive no beauty in the gospel. This is often affirmed of those who reject the gospel, and who live in sin; see the 2Co_2:13 note; Mat_23:16-17, Mat_23:26 notes; Luk_4:18 note; Joh_9:39; Joh_12:40 notes; Rom_11:7 note. The sense is, that they did not see the spiritual beauty and glory of the plan of redemption. They act in reference to that as they would in reference to this world, if a bandage were over their eyes, and they saw not the light of the sun, the beauty of the landscape, the path in which they should go, or the countenance of a friend. All is dark, and obscure, and destitute of beauty to them, however much beauty may be seen in all these objects by others.(2) that this is done by the agency of Satan; and that his dominion is secured by keeping the world in darkness. The affirmation is direct and positive, that it is by his agency that it is done. Some of the “modes” in which it is done are the following:(a) By a direct influence on the minds of people. I do not know why it is absurd to suppose that one intellect may, in some way unknown to us, have access to another, and have power to influence it; nor can it be proved that Satan may not have power to pervert the understanding; to derange its powers; to distract its attention; and to give in view of the mind a wholly delusive relative importance to objects. In the time of the Saviour it cannot be doubted that in the numerous cases of demoniacal possessions, Satan directly affected the minds of people; nor is there any reason to think that he has ceased to delude and destroy them.(b) By the false philosophy which has prevailed - a large part of which seems to have been contrived as if on purpose to deceive the world, and destroy the peace and happiness of people.(c) By the systems of superstition and idolatry. All these seem to be under the control of one Master Mind. They are so well conceived and adapted to prostrate the moral powers; to fetter the intellect; to pervert the will; to make people debased, sunken, polluted, and degraded; and they so uniformly accomplish this effect, that they have all the marks of being under the control of one mighty Mind, and of having been devised to accomplish His purposes over people.(d) By producing in the minds of people a wholly disproportionate view of the value of objects. “A very small object held before the eye will shut out the light of the sun.” A piece of money of the smallest value laid on the eye will make everything appear dark, and prevent all the glory of mid-day from reaching the seat of vision. And so it is with the things of this world. They are placed directly before us, and are placed directly between us and the glory of the gospel. And the trifles of wealth and of fashion; the objects of pleasure and ambition, are made to assume an importance in view of the mind which wholly excludes the glory of the gospel, and shuts out all the realities of the eternal world. And he does it:(e) By the blinding influence of passion and vice. Before a vicious mind all is dark and obscure. There is no beauty in truth, in chastity, or honesty, or in the fear and love of God. Vice always renders the mind blind. and the heart hard, and shrouds everything in the moral world in midnight. And in order to blind the minds of people to the glory of the gospel, Satan has only to place splendid schemes of speculation before people; to tempt them to climb the steeps of ambition; to entice them to scenes of gaiety; to secure the erection of theaters, and gambling houses, and houses of infamy and pollution; to fill the cities and towns of a land with taverns and dram-shops; and to give opportunity everywhere for the full play and unrestrained indulgence of passion; and the glory of the gospel will be as effectually unseen as the glory of the sun is in the darkest night.Lest the light ... - This passage states the design, for which Satan blinds the minds of people. It is because he “hates” the gospel, and wishes to prevent its influence and spread in the world Satan has always hated and opposed it, and all his arts have been employed to arrest its diffusion on earth. The word “light” here means excellence, beauty, or splendor. Light is the emblem of knowledge, purity, or innocence; and is here and elsewhere applied to the gospel, because it removes the errors, and sins, and wretchedness of people, as the light of the sun scatters the shades of night. This purpose of preventing the light of the gospel shining on people, Satan will endeavor to accomplish by all the means in his power. It is his “grand” object in this world, because it is by the gospel only that people can be saved; by that that God is glorified on earth more than by anything else; and because, therefore, if he can prevent sinners from embracing that, he will secure their destruction, and most effectually show his hatred of God. And it is to Satan a matter of little importance what people “may be,” or “are,” provided they are not Christians. They may be amiable, moral, accomplished, rich, honored, esteemed by the world, because in the possession of all these he may be equally sure of their ruin, and because, also, these things may contribute somewhat to turn away their minds from the gospel. Satan, therefore, will not oppose plans of gain or ambition; he will not oppose purposes of fashion and amusement; he may not oppose schemes by which we desire to rise in the world; he will not oppose the theater, the ballroom, the dance, or the song; he will not oppose thoughtless mirth; but the moment the gospel begins to shine on the benighted mind, that moment he will make resistance, and then all his power will be concentrated.The glorious gospel - Greek ‘The gospel of the glory of Christ,’ a Hebraism for the glorious gospel. Mr. Locke renders it, “the glorious brightness of the light of the gospel of Christ,” and supposes it means the brightness, or clearness, of the doctrine wherein Christ is manifested in the gospel. It is all light, and splendor, and beauty, compared with the dark systems of philosophy and paganism. It is glorious, for it is full of splendor; makes known the glorious God; discloses a glorious plan of salvation; and conducts ignorant, weak, and degraded man to a world of light. No two words in our language are so full of rich and precious meaning, as the phrase “glorious gospel.”Who is the image of God - Christ is called the image of God:(1)\tIn respect to his divine nature, his exact resemblance to God in his divine attributes and perfections; see Col_1:15; and Heb_1:3; and,(2)\tIn his moral attributes as Mediator, as showing forth the glory of the Father to people. He “resembles” God, and in him we see the divine glory and perfections embodied, and shine forth.It is from his “resemblance” to God in all respects that he is called his image; and it is through him that the divine perfections are made known to people. It is an object of special dislike and hatred to Satan that the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on people, and fill their hearts. Satan hates that image; he hates that people should become like God; and he hates all that has a resemblance to the great and glorious Yahweh.Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

Yes, it is for today. The last five Sciptures in my last post are for the New Testament age, and we are in the New Testament age. The truth, though, is that mankind has always been bombarded with demons since the Garden of Eden. Satan's attacks on us will continue until God casts him down before us. It's great to notice that we will say. "That's it? That's the guy that did all this?"Remember that after Jesus was baptized, and then filled with the Holy Ghost, he was immediately led into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.From Luke 3 and 4: "...the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him...And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil"We should expect the same as Christians, especially as Spirit-filled believers. Satan went after Jesus full force after the Holy Ghost fell upon Him. If Christ suffered spiritual affliction while in the flesh, so will we. No need to worry, though, God only allows what will bring Him glory. God won't do anything that will make Him look weak. If we sincerely seek after God, He will make sure that we are victorious in spiritual warfare.

The only problem with attributing this verse to Satan is that it contradicts other verses where God specifically is stated as the one who brought about the deadening of the spiritual senses - as a consequence for sinful choices. Many times God makes claims that he himself is the author of judgments - (using whatever accomplices he sees fit, but that is very secondary) I think we need to be careful not to dull this reality by claiming Satan as the author of judgments. Sinners are separated from God because GOD'S wrath is upon them (as revealed by their blindness etc). That is foundational to salvation. When sinners realize that they are under God's judgment, then they will see the value and need for his mercy. Hell is not made by Satan, but by God, and Satan can't throw anyone there. Of course much evil occurs because God is allowing Satan to tempt man, etc Nevertheless spiritual blindness seems to be the consequence of sin, not a demonic temptation or infliction in itself.Here's another thought: When Adam and Eve followed the tempters lie, then God ejected them from his presence (Satan did not do that) Mankind ended up spiritually distanced from God, and thus followed sinful paths (because they were blind). They could never and must never see their way back to "the garden" because they must never live eternally in their sinful condition. They must now come to God through the cross - through divine enlightenment - and recieve a new life - eternal life. Isaiah 6:9-11. To sinful people: "Be every hearing but never understanding; be ever seeing but never perceiving.... Otherwise they might see.... hear... understand, and turn and be healed." Rom. 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all! 2 Cor. 3:16 Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. To be honest, I never thought about all this before. But it is starting to make sense. DianeDorcus wrote: Perhaps, we should try to make a simple list of all the ways a person can be blinded? - believe in evolution- legalism- hardened conscience- can't hear the Spirit- no awareness of one's sin- evaluates the Bible with a natural mindset. - religious

roadsign,I think we are talking past each other, as I never stated that Satan created hell or would judge anyone. 1) God created man2) Satan corrupted man3) man sinned4) the earth was cursed5) Satan was given dominion of this worldAll evil (not some) has occured because of Satan's tempting man. Sin began with Satan: Satan tempted Eve, Eve convinced Adam, they ate, sin entered the world from Adam. God must judge Satan and us as a result of sin.I would have to disagree (lovingly, of course) with you that the phrase "god of this world" describing Satan would have to contradict other verses. Here are some verses that it harmonizes with:Gen 3:17 "cursed is the ground for thy sake"Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil"Isaiah 23:17 "Tyre...shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world"Matt 13:22 "He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care(s) of this world...choke the word"Matt 18:7 "Woe unto the world because of offences!"John 1:10 "He (Jesus) was in the world...and the world knew him not."John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth"John 15:18 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."and 16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world"Romans 12:2 "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"1 Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God..."Eph 2:2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world..."

Since we're on the topic of temptation, I thought this connection might be at least an interesting quip to throw in:"What was man's first sin?" Man desired the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen.2:17;3:1-6). Therefore, man first coveted divine knowledge, allowing pride to consume his heart and lie to him that he was equal with God.Well, our post-modern society prides itself on "escaping" the "mindless rot of old superstitions" in the name of science. Yet, science comes from the Latin word for " to know", or "Knowledge". So, mankind hasn't truly changed in all of these millenia ("Nothing new under the sun" -Solomon)Which leaves me to wonder why some of my Christian friends are so into paraphsycology. God says that He is to be our power, our focus, and our heart's desire, yet they want to "harness the power of the mind". Isn't that what Satan wants, for us to try to draw from ourselves power that isn't there?Compare: "You can use your mind to lift rocks." -Paraphsycology "If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can say unto this mountain 'Remove unto yonder place', and it shall remove: nothing shall be impossible to you" -Jesus [Matt. 17:20]Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.Paul :-)

1) God created man2) Satan corrupted man3) man sinned4) the earth was cursed5) Satan was given dominion of this worldI can instantly give a verse in justification of 1-4, but why do you say 5)?I do believe, btw, that Satan is the god of this age. This can get a bit confusing in the KJVThe KJV has 'god of this world' but the word is better translated 'age. However the whole 'world' lieth in the wicked one, but 'kosmos'/world is not the same at the 'earth'. Are we talking about territory or spiritual kingdoms?

"What was man's first sin?" Man desired the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen.2:17;3:1-6). Therefore, man first coveted divine knowledge, allowing pride to consume his heart and lie to him that he was equal with God. I think you are running together two things here which may be better understood if we keep them separate.1. It was not 'man' but 'woman' who desired the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The scripture does not imply that her 'desire' was sinful.2. However the woman's transgression was without her full awareness of its implication. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”(1Tim. 2:14, KJVS)3. the 'man' according to the above verse sinned 'with his eyes open'.4. It is Adam's sin which brought the curse into the world, not Eve's“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;” (Gen. 3:17, KJVS)“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Rom. 5:12, KJVS)the KJV's use of the archaic 'thou' is very important here. Adam, not Eve was held personally responsible for what happened, and the earth was cursed because of Adam's action, not Eve's.

Thank you, Philogos. My mind was more on the link between knowledge and science, trying to point out how mankind hasn't really changed since the Fall. Yet, I should've checked those verses, and that is interesting, seeing that that the eldest, and therefore more mature, creation consciously rebelled. Reminds me of the Prophets continual cry against the rulers of the nation, especially against the priests and prophets ("like people, like priest" Hosea 4:9).Keep such vigilance to the Word. It truly is a sad thing to see Christians setting to do that which they see is sinful. Let us crucify the flesh daily.

In the Strong’s concordance God and god/diety (gods) are translated from the same word, both in the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT (theos). So it is up to the translator to choose which one to use. Obviously the “god of this age” it cannot refer to idols or false gods, because they have no power. So why, since KJV, is THEOS assumed to be Satan here? (and no where else in Scripture)Of this age? Is he really THEOS of this age? Obviously not in the sense of false god, because he is real. But THEOS, in the sense of God??? I suspect that the theological debate then is this: Who’s in charge right now God or Satan? Note this: Just before his death, Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.” Jn. 12:31 I think it is not difficult to prove from scripture that Satan does not have dominion (free run) over the world. God is sovereign of this age, and also of Satan. So then we ask: What does Satan do and what does God do? That can be confusing, and lots of people have lots of opinions. Many today believe that God never lets anything bad happen to us, the devil does (or chance). This theological position would easily attribute “the god of this age” to be Satan. Our beliefs are influenced by our concept of divine judgment. We must ask, Does God still send judgments and how is that manifested? This is a major topic, but I’d say that there are plenty of references that prove that he does send judgments (though people can have really wacky notions of this) – ultimately the final judgment – hell. In my earlier post I tried to draw from the wider context of Scripture to show that God brings judgments on us, one significant example being the deadening of the spiritual senses – so that no one can come to God on their own – they must come through Christ. Because of the KJV translation, it has been a common assumption that “the god of this age” is Satan, and I assumed it too. But as I study scripture more and more in its wider context, I have come to believe that “the god of this age” should have been translated “God” . That seems to flow with scripture in general. It fits with God’s character, his justice, and his mercy. ie He blinds the sinner and he opens the eyes of the repentant. That has always been his way. It was God who drove Adam and Eve out of the garden – one of many examples of divine judgment. I noticed the above submitted references to various activities of Satan, but I see that as no reason to assume that Satan also “blinds the eyes” I believe that if we understand God’s justice – ie his ways of dealing with mankind, then 2 Cor. 4:4 will make most sense when we interpret it as God. The gospel message of salvation makes a fuller sense in light of all God’s attributes. Diane

roadsign,I agree with some of what you said, however there are some things I didn't."So then we ask: What does Satan do and what does God do? That can be confusing, and lots of people have lots of opinions."God is in absolute control. Be he has given us freewill to accept or reject him, as He did with the angels. Satan, an angel, rebelled, and caused the rebellion of humans, too. God is still in control, but He is allowing Satan to try God's people, and strenghthen them. But only what He sees fit.James 1:2 " My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations"I would disagree with you when you say...'Obviously the “god of this age” it cannot refer to idols or false gods, because they have no power.'Having power doesn't make a god. A god is made by the worth (worth + ship = worship) given it by people. Exodus 12:12b "...against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD."Lev 19:4 "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God."Judges 10:11a-13 "And the LORD said ...ye have forsaken me, and served other gods"Idolatry continues today. Anyone that changes the attributes of God in their mind makes a god in their own image. Anyone that puts their opinions over Scripture has made a god of themself. You stated: 'I see that as no reason to assume that Satan also “blinds the eyes”'Excerpts from the parable of the sower:Matthew 13:19a "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."Mark 4:15b "...Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."Luke 8:12b "...then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."I would have to say that because Satan is allowed to attack the world with God's permission does not mean 'that God never lets anything bad happen to us.' Satan is the god of this world (or age) because when God creates "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness," Satan won't be given dominion, as he will have been cast down.It seems that you are stating that one who says that Satan has been given power to attack us, must also believe that God no longer judges us. I, again, disagree.3 Questions:1) Going along with your thinking, though, if Satan is not the god of this world (or age), and cannot blind us, how is he able to "deceiveth the whole world," or "lead the whole world astray" (Rev 12:9)?2) If Satan is not the god of this world (or age), what is the "spirit of the world" referred to in 1 Cor 1:12?3) If, as you stated, Satan doesn't blind us to the gospel, then what is Satan doing while God is blinding us?

I am so thankful for America, I am thankful God has me dwell here as a witness for Him. With the knowledge that the bible calls satan a god, including the god of this world, needs to be said with a breaking of one of God's 10 commandments on a very daily basis. No, we don't become righteous by keeping the 10 commandments, but Paul says they are a mirror, our teacher, to show us sin. There is a commandment, for Christians (not saying the unsaved must obey, they can choose to disobey, and police and government should respect), there is a Holy commandment that teaches us God does not want us worshipping and bowing to man-made created things. Flags fall into this category. And there is a pledge of commitment, a pledge of loyalty, to the American flag, being said we pledge our loyalty (allegiance) to this flag, which is also under God. Well, most people who are pledging this loyalty are ungodly, so they are talking to their god, the devil, or other demons, or themself. A christian, a Holy, set apart God-loving person, should not break one of God's commandments written in STONE, and worship a flag dedicated to god, who most people are talking to satan while making this pledge.I hope prayerfully this is considered. God does not like breaking one of His commandments, just because its tradition. Please pray about such things.Remember, the god of this world, Jesus says, is satan. To worship a created thing, when most people are worshipping themselves or satan, is not of God. He calls us out, to be separate and holy. Holy means separate. God, the Creator of all Life, is not the god of this world, satan. Let's seek to please Him, and teach others who He is, this Holy One.

Satan, an angel, rebelled, and caused the rebellion of humans, too. I never disputed this fact, or Satan’s other activities – deceiving man, giving them lies that lead them into deeper and deeper rebellion against God. I ask: Who cast Satan out of heaven? Who separated Satan from God? Was it his choice, or did God do it? I sense that the main point of my argument was missed – that of divine judgment – becoming separated from God. Do you think that it was Satan who separated man from God as a consequence of the fall? I’m sure you don’t. Then consider what that separation might imply. Would it not include darkened spiritual senses - being dead? Being unable to know God's truth? Unable to communicate with God? Consider this: James 1:13 When tempted no one should say “God is tempting me” For God cannot be tempted by evil , not does he tempt anyone; But each one is tempted when, BY HIS OWN EVIL DESIRE he is dragged away and enticed.” James 1:13 (like Eve) Notice that it does not say: the devil MADE him do it. It is his own sinful DESIRE, that made him vulnerable to Satan’s temptations. He did not DISIRE God. This truth harmonizes with Romans which says “They neither glorified him as God, nor gave thanks to him.” In other words – THEY DID NOT DESIRE GOD – unbelief. None can attribute their evil DESIRES to the devil. To do so would be to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their sin. They see themselves as victims of Satan. What a horrible trap to be in. They need to see that their root desire needs to change, or else they will keep on falling into temptation. (an important truth for counsellors to know) They need to desire God – to trust him with their lives. Rom1:24, 26 “God GAVE THEM OVER to sinful desires.”Ps. 81:12 God said: "So I GAVE THEM OVER to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own desires." GOD GAVE THEM OVER are important words. They are even repeated, so we must not gloss over them. It doesn’t say that God MADE them sin and it doesn't say that Satan gave them over. From other scriptures we understand that to mean that unrepentant sinners do not have the benefit of fellowship with God – which includes divine enlightenments, the Holy Spirit, his laws in their hearts and mind (Jer31:33) They are SEPARATED from God because they did not DESIRE God. So they are on the slippery path downward – open to Satan’s temptations.In my first post I listed a few verses that explain God’s part in the fall. Ex “God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all.” Rom. 11:32 That means that he left them on their own. So then Satan is free to delude them without their knowing. Another thought: Romans 2 speaks about the Jewish religious leaders – essentially saying that they were no different than the vile pagans. On the outside they were much better - good, law abiding, religiously dedicated people. But they DID NOT DESIRE God either, Really they did not trust him. So God GAVE THEM OVER and they became legalistic (trust in self), judgmental, hypocritical, etc etc. They do not have the thoughts of God' Spirit. We can apply that principle today, for there are many who, though very “Christian” really unconsciously wish to rule their own lives. As a result, they opened themselves up to the devil’s lies – especially legalism. They too cannot hear the voice of the Spirit even though they know their entire Bibles (think they do). They follow after their own thinking. They are on a slippery slope downward. We see evidence of “Christians” who make very surprising plunges into sin. Really, their fall was much before we ever saw the evidence. For a long time their root desire was to rule themselves, not let God do it. So God GAVE THEM OVER. Much of the sin we see in the world and in the church is the result of God withholding his protection and guiding Spirit. Like the prodigal – he lets them have what they want. It a hard way to learn – but it works, for when sinners realize that they had strayed from God, they can come humbly back to him to plead for mercy. And that is when he opens their eyes, unplugs their ears, gives them understanding – his Spirit within them. And Satan can never take away the Spirit from anyone whom he wishes. Guarantee!

roadsign,First, your last post I would pretty much agree with. I will try to go point by point so we won't misunderstand each other. I wouldn't debate this point if I thought it was unimportant.I understand that you are saying we have a sinful nature. But what I am asking is why do we have a sinful nature? Yes, mankind desired the fruit, after Satan tricked Eve and highlighted it. Then she convinced Adam. We, today, are still responsible to God for being tricked, rather trusting His Word.1) Adam and Eve were capable of desiring things over God because they had freewill to do so. 2) Satan recognized this and tempted them since he was cursed for his own sin, and rebelled against God. So both of these points are true. I am not trying to inflate the second point over the first, I am simply saying that man was influenced by Satan, and as a result fell. I am just trying to put them in chronological order. Satan's work in the garden was to make man fall, and his plan hasn't changed. I am in no way trying to diminish our responsiblity for any of what we do. The devil can't make us do anything.I can't say for sure, but it sounds like you may be saying that man would have fallen even without the serpent's temptation. Regardless, that is not the way the Genesis account carries the event. Covetousness didn't enter Eve until Satan made her question God's Word.So I would agree with you that we have a sinful nature, but sin started because of the serpent's work. That's why Satan is the god of this world. All the wars and death came about from Satan's work in the garden, and his continuing work today, in harmony with our sinful nature. So your last post I basically agreed with. I think that my opinion differs from yours concerning Satan's ability. Without God, Satan will make a meal out of a human being, and they won't even know it. They will even think they are following God.I just don't see how you conclude that Satan doesn't have the ability to blind us today. The last two verses are quotes from God out of Isaiah 44:2a Thus saith the LORD...10a "Who hath formed a god"18 "he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see"If verse 18 is a quote from the mouth of God, who is 'he' that is doing the blinding?So I totally agree with you on our responsibility and God's judgement. It seems that we disagree on Satan's influence on man in the garden and today. Would that be accurate?

can't say for sure, but it sounds like you may be saying that man would have fallen even without the serpent's temptation. Regardless, that is not the way the Genesis account carries the event. Covetousness didn't enter Eve until Satan made her question God's Word.Now this could be another big debate! Which came first the chicken or the egg? desire or temptation. If Eve had desired God, and found him sufficient for her, why then would she even want to consider the temptation? What gave Satan power over her - was it not her wrong desire? I do not believe that Satan MADE her question God's word. She did it by her choice. Note from James: Then we have to ask, is it the desire, or the temptation that is sin? (a straying thought)Anyway, I know that Satan deludes us, tells us lies, and leads us down the garden path (like Eve). Surely that also implies a blinding effect on the mind. After all, Satan would never want us to see the truth. But, still, I cannot believe that Satan is the author of judgment. I don't see God making him the judge of the world. God is just and since the fall man has suffered from the curse that he placed on man kind - one of them being banishment from his presence and Spirit of truth and light. The result of that results spiritual blindness. If the light is taken away we are in the dark. We, today, are still responsible to God for being tricked, rather trusting His Word.I'm not convicned of this, however, we ARE responsibile for making the choice to reject or accept God's solution - his redemptive mercy. (and even that is not possible until the Spirit enlightens us of the need) I can't say for sure, but it sounds like you may be saying that man would have fallen even without the serpent's temptation.Very good point. I never thought of this. Maybe that's why Satan was not removed entirely. That helps me understand the verse, "God has turned all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them." Imagine a human race who did not really want God, but they never fell into temptation. How would they be redeemed? Is. 44:18 from the Amplified version: 8They do not know or understand, for their eyes God has let become besmeared so that they cannot see, and their minds as well so that they cannot understand.

Now this could be another big debate! Which came first the chicken or the egg? desire or temptation. If Eve had desired God, and found him sufficient for her, why then would she even want to consider the temptation? What gave Satan power over her - was it not her wrong desire?This is not really a problem at all. Desire predated trespass, but that does not mean that the desire was wrong.

Desire predated trespassThis is what I thought, but now I am wondering if I'm wrong. Maybe FREE WILL predated desire. Did wrong desire result from Satan's suggestions? Could it have happened without his help? Free will entails the freedom to choose. So Satan is used by God to TEST one's true allegiance. God cannot tempt anyone. (James)That's a bit off the topic..... Regardless - man fell, and lost the ability to choose God without divine assistance. It would be a fascinating study to research what we actually lost in the fall - the implications of the God's curse. Diane

"So Satan is used by God to TEST one's true allegiance." Praise! You got it. God uses Satan to tempt us. "God cannot tempt anyone."God does tempt us, but uses Satan to do so. Satan being called the god of this world is not thereby put into a position of judgement. He is called the god of this world because all the travail, poverty, famine, and death are a result of his foul work that originated in the garden. All the kingdoms rising against kingdoms, wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens, earthquakes, are evidence of a cursed earth, or a cursed world. Why is it cursed? Because of the snake. He's not our judge, he is just responsible for starting all this mess. The world is sinful, not because of God's intervening, but Satan's. Thus, he is the god of this world, not the God of the universe. His sin proceeded man's.

I would half agree with you, annie. As God does tempt us in the sense of trying us. But He does not tempt us to sin.Gen 22:1 "..God did tempt Abraham.."Here are Wesley's comments: 'God did tempt Abraham - Not to draw him to sin, so Satan tempts; but to discover his graces, how strong they were, that they might be found to praise and honour and glory.'So I would, like James 1:13 says, say that God does not tempt us into sin.."Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"..but God does try our faithfulness (Abraham, Job, Paul, etc).We are still commanded to pray that God 'lead us not into temptation.' So it seems that our lack of obediance or lack of faith could cause us to fall into Satan's clutches if we are leaning to our own understanding.

Satan being called the god of this world is not thereby put into a position of judgement. He is called the god of this world by some, not everyone. Thanks, though, for making a clear point that Satan is not a dispenser of judgment. That aught to be very comforting - to know that God himself deals with evil. The word "god": (from Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) THEOS (Greek) in the polytheism of the Greeks, denoted a god or deity (ex Acts 14:11, 19:26, 28:6, 1 Cor. 8:5, gal. 4:8Hence the word was appropriated by Jews and retained by Christians to denote the one true God.In other words, there is no Greek distinction in Scripture between God and god. The translator must choose according to context. The word THEOS is used in 2 Cor 4:4 and the context does not necessarily imply that this THEOS must mean Satan. (discussed earlier)Nowhere in Scripture is Satan himself claimied to be THEOS. It is an assumption to call him a god, which for the most part doesn't probably matter because we all know what we mean. Many scriptural names for Satan label him according to his activity and sphere of operation: The prince of the power of the air (spiritual realm)the king of death Heb 2:14The ruler of darknessThe decieverThe wicked onethe tempterThe accuser of the brethrenAn angel of lightA liarA murdererThe enemyA roaring lion The one, angel of light would make a good discussion.

The recent news releases of the crazy and senseless violence in New Orleans, reminds me of the consequences of living without God's governing Spirit. There is no end to the depth of human depravity. No brakes. Society just goes wild and implodes on itself. And, no doubt, this is only the beginning - a fortaste of what may befall our civilization. (Unless God himself should intervene)We have had a lot of discussion here regarding the possibility of natural catastrophies being God's judgment, but there has been virtually no discussion re a far worse divne judgment - the ABSENSE OF GOD and Spirit reigning in the hearts of man. (as discussed above)Remember back when humanism crept in? Man thought he was wise enough to rule, that man could do better without God, and that civilization would improve. Well, now we see that we cannot live without God. Katrina, just exposed evil that is hidden in the hearts of man. (It also exposes the good) I have come to believe, that, as horrible as natural disasters may be, the far bigger disaster is an ongoing divine judgment of 2 Cor. 4:4. The theme verse of this thread is making more and more sense to me: God's judgment - letting man go his way and grope in the dark by withdrawing his divine light. One resident of New Orleans said: I never realized that my people could be that bad. Really, if he understood human depravity, he would not have been surprised. Because of the catastrophy his illusions were shattered. (thankfully) Isn't that what brings us to God - seeing that it didn't work without him?Diane

There are several different words which are used to express the connection between Satan and ? Perhaps a good place to start is “Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;” (Matt. 4:8, KJVS) Here the word for world is 'kosmos'; it has the sense of an ordered system. It is sometimes said that this is the system under Satan's control, but there are times when the scriptures use this word in a way that implies there are different ways of looking at things. eg John 1:29 (KJVS)The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 3:16 (KJVS)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The world here is obviously not 'geographical space' but mankind in its entirety. If we connect this with Satan's unopposed claims of Matt 4:8 we begin to get a sense of mankind in its entirety under a rogue ruler, and the word 'cosmos' does have a sense of organisation. The associated verb, kosmeo, is always used in a 'cosmetic' sense; Matt. 12:44; 23:29; 25:7; Luke 11:25; 21:5; 1Tim. 2:9; Titus 2:10; 1Pet. 3:5; Rev. 21:2,19 of something being 'worked on' not a random happening but an achieved purpose. The phrase that began this thread 'the god of this age' has some linkage here. The same phrase 'of this age' is used in “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Eph. 6:12, NKJV) The word translated 'rulers' here is 'kosmokratoras' - cosmo-crats. Youngs translation calls them 'world-rulers' but he is plainly not speaking about powerful nation states. So in Ephesians Paul says that 'this age' is under the rule of cosmocrats who maintain it in 'darkness'. In 2 Cor 4:4 Paul speaks of 'the god' of 'this age' who blinds the minds of who do not believe. The question then is 'are they blind because they have not believed' or 'have they not believed because there are blinded'? The essence is that the 'age' is maintained in 'darkness' and the 'mind' is of those who have not believed is in a state of blindness; and that these states are controlled by 'powers'.The word 'god' is one which Christians instinctively apply only to God, but Paul calls the power behind the idols 'gods', even though he tells the Corinthians As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1Cor. 8:3-6, KJVS) The noun 'god' (not the person Jehovah) is frequently used in the Old Testament of persons with authority or power. Here is a classic example “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3:5, KJVS) Most other versions have opted for the statement 'like God' but the KJV is not inaccurate here. (It has to do with the title God being a plural form) The temptation of Genesis 3 is that man would not need to be 'under' anyone's authority but would be a genuinely free agent. (the lie still poisons our race).The word 'gods' (elohim) is translated as 'judges' frequently in the Old Testament. eg “Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.” (Ex. 21:6, KJVS) Among many instances are these Ex. 21:6,22; 22:8-9; Num. 25:5; Deut. 1:16 Angels are also called 'gods' as in “For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.” (Psa. 8:5, KJVS) The word is not only used in it absolute sense as the Only God.Added to this we have the sense of the collision of the aeons. There is an 'age to come'“far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.” (Eph. 1:21, NKJV)“that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Eph. 2:7, NKJV) Both underlined words here are the word 'aion'. The early Christians were living at the end of an aion; “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,” (Matt. 13:49, NKJV)“Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (1Cor. 10:11, NKJV) In this sense we have been in the 'last times' since the public arrival of Christ. His presence marks the beginning of reign of Messiah; the Kingdom of God. This is spreading our net a bit but there is another important link here seen in “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Matt. 3:11-12, KJVS) Notice how the idea of 'a baptism in the Spirit' is linked with the final judgement. What we are witnessing here is the inauguration of an 'age' which will culminate in fiery judgement. This is why Peter's quotation of Joel's prophecy sweeps unbroken from its 'inauguration' to its 'climax'; “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Acts 2:17-21, KJVS) In this sense we have been in the 'last days' since the day of Pentecost. We tend to think of 'the last days' as immanent or beyond the tribulation or something similar; for the early Christians they had arrived and were moving to their culmination is Christ's return.Meanwhile at the interface of 'this age' and 'the age to come' the battle rages. Christians although physically living in 'this age' and already “... have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,” (Heb. 6:5, NKJV)...remembering that 'tasting' in Hebrews does not mean a sample but the full draught “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9, NKJV)This is a thrilling concept; we are in the 'kosmos' but not of it, we are at war in 'the present age' but our supplies come from the 'age to come'. sorry, that is far too long a post... but I couldn't be sure to get back to it if I paused in the middle.

Are all 19 mentions of 'world' in John 17 (KJV) the same 'kosmos'?Yes.

Paul calls the power behind the idols 'gods',Do you mind explaining this. From the reference it seems that the opposite is said - that idols (gods) have NO power. I checked out different translations, and they seems to say the same thing - that the idols (gods) are really nothing. Or are you referring to the power attributed to them in the mind of the worshipper (fictitious power)? Diane

It is simply a demon hiding behind the idol reaping the worship.1 Cor 8: [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 Cor 10[19a] What say I then? that the idol is any thing?..[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to GodThe idol is dumb and unalive, but the devil behind it is taking advantage. Satan does have power, though. But he is powerless against God.2 Cor 11:14 Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.Rev 16:14a For they are the spirits of devils, working miraclesRev 19:20a And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him

"Paul calls the power behind the idols 'gods',"Do you mind explaining this. From the reference it seems that the opposite is said - that idols (gods) have NO power. I checked out different translations, and they seems to say the same thing - that the idols (gods) are really nothing. Or are you referring to the power attributed to them in the mind of the worshipper (fictitious power)? Yes, as letsgetbusy says, the key verses are“What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.” (1Cor. 10:19-20, NKJV)Idolatry is 'fellowship with demons'.

When I visited a pagan tribe in Surinam, South America I saw people who were terrified of forces outside of their control. Demons played havoc among them – even shaking their entire huts. So the villagers erected many shrines and wore fetishes in order to appease these spirits. These idols were gods to them – gods who would protect them from these outside force.It seems to be a human instinct to attribute calamities and troubles to deliberate spiritual forces. However, in their blindness, mankind cannot discern the forces. The villagers, in Surinam thought airplanes were spirits, and were terrified of them. I sense that we in our humanistic culture are no different. We usually attribute cosmic upheavals to “natural” forces. We too have difficulty discerning what is directly from God –(thus many discussion about divine judgment)Paul wisely distinguishes between the object of worship (gods/idols) and the hidden source of manifested power (demonic). We could apply Paul’s teachings to ourselves. We too worship gods that we assume will protect us. In our culture, I would generalize our gods to be institutions: gov’t, insurance companies, medical system, education, CHURCH – all under the umbrella of humanism. We don’t know that they are gods to us until they fail us and we get angry. However, what we too need to be told, is that there are demonic delusions behind our false assumption about mankind: ie that man is somehow better and more powerful than he really is. We are BLIND to our delusions because of our fallen nature and distance from God (as I shared earlier). I realize that most dedicated religious church-goer would strongly refute these words because they are not only blind, but also “stiff-necked”. They don’t want their gods to be uncovered and exposed as fake. We have deified ourselves and in our minds have erected ourselves as gods. I think that this demonic delusion is evidenced in our unwillingness to attribute troubles in our world and personal lives to the product of divine consequences dispensed after the fall us man. To admit that would be to have to admit that we are, alas, rebellious sinners who deserve God’s wrath. (Note that none of the prophets disputed this, but instead, agreed. The prophets were not deluded, nor were they blind, deaf, or dulled in mind.)Satan’s temptation to Eve: “You shall be as gods (or also translated like God) “In the Hebrew the same word for God is also translated god. So here again, it is the assumption of the translator to insert either god or God. Let’s not kid ourselves, Eve was tempted to be God – master of her own destiny, her own salvation, her own ruler. This is what she really DESIRED – preferred more than God being her master. To say that she wanted to be any less is to diminish the implications of the fall. It is to fail to understand the depth our own depravity. (which I suspect was true for the translator of KJV – check that out.)Edit added:To the extent that we want to be our own God (take over his job: power and control, and authroity) we make ourselves into a god (a fake God). We lose our sense of what it means to be human - and that is tragic because it separates us from one anther, and also from God. Our unwillingness to forgive is just one of countless examples. We hold grudges because we wish to usurp the role of the avenger (God’s role) We would rather appease our own guilt and shame with self-made fig-leaves (coverups, blame, defences, good impressions, addictions) than stand naked before God and accept his mercy.I could go on and on and on with examples, and that would be a good exercise. The more we see that bent within ourselves, the more the scales will fall off our eyes, and the more we will recognize the value of the cross. And isn’t that revival?Diane

“You shall be as gods (or also translated like God) “In the Hebrew the same word for God is also translated god. So here again, it is the assumption of the translator to insert either god or God. Let’s not kid ourselves, Eve was tempted to be God – master of her own destiny, her own salvation, her own ruler. This is what she really DESIRED – preferred more than God being her master. To say that she wanted to be any less is to diminish the implications of the fall. It is to fail to understand the depth our own depravity. (which I suspect was true for the translator of KJV – check that out.)The Hebrew of Genesis 3:5 has 'elohim' which is the plural form of 'eloah' meaning 'god'. The two words are together in “They sacrificed unto devils, not to God (eloah); to gods (elohim) whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.” (Deut. 32:17, KJVS)The interesting thing is that the true God is often referred to as 'elohim' - the plural form. This is taken by some as an indirect evidence of trinity, but I doubt it personally. It is more likely the honourific form as when Queen Victoria famously said 'we are not amused', meaning herself. So I don't think this can be proven either way. The history of the translation of this verse is interesting; most go for 'God' but the Geneva and the KJV both have 'gods' and the Septuagint also has 'gods' in the plural. The Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew 'elohim' as the singular 'God', so this was a conscious choice to go for 'gods' here.So, as they say 'pay your money and take your choice'...