Laura Bush Calls Criticism Of Husband 'Disgusting'

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation...The word for nation is ethnos. Ethnic group against ethnic group...

This morning one of the UK TV stations had a story about a family in Texas which had taken in a black family from New Orleans. The home was palacial and the woman of the house commented that they were Christians. We then saw shots of the two women making sandwiches together. The New Orleans woman was overwhelmed at the home in which she had been welcomed but the two women were obviously getting on well together and the white Texan was very relaxed in sharing what God had blessed them with.It was a delight! I was all choked up just watching it. Praise God for straightforward Christian grace and open heartedness. Sometimes it takes a Katrina to reveal what God can do in people.

Thats great Philo! I like to hear a little bit of balance. Just about all I've heard is black vs white concerning the event.

What a wonderful story of the the church being the church. If only the media would speak and show the coverage of all the white Americans helping the black Americans. My wife and I were discussing this a little bit last night and I realized that most of the rescue efforts, the help being offerd and the huge donations of money are being done by white Americans, or at least that is what I have seen. Everything seems to get blown out of proportion but the truth is rarely given.Mike

I agree about the black vs. white thing. It's ridiculous. That's not what it's about. Some people are just taking it to that extreme. I think I saw that televised telethon where West, I guess, started pointing the finger saying that racism was getting practiced against the hurricane victims in New Orleans. Oh man... I knew that wasn't in the script and it made my heart skip a beat. I just felt such anger from that guy and division. So a large number of the victims in New Orleans happen to be black and poor... those are facts, and I think that was pointed out so that something could be done about their situation. There are lots of good stories out there about families opening up their homes, people turning to and relying on God, and several organizations and even nations around the world helping out with the hurricane relief. MSNBC, in my opinion, has been doing a good job covering all the good, hopeful stories and did their part in trying to help like getting medical attention to those in need or reuniting family members that had been slpit during evacuations. They've had several one hour special edition evening news on-site in New Orleans and other places affected by the hurricane and great special Dateline shows giving updates on how the relief has been going. And I've been surprised how much they've chosen to air when people have talked about God being their hope and salvation during this time. They even ended a bunch of news programs with Christian songs, singing about the Lord. I see that as monumental. I see that as a miracle.

As a 55 year old American-African myself, who came thru the thick of the Civil Rights Movement, i can tell you point blank that i can sense racism like a smoke detector detects smoke, and i see NO RACISM in the images my TV brings me of the Katrina survivors ... These days i get more grief for being a open Christian than for being black ...Nay, to the contrary, as i've had to point out to so many of those (saved and unsaved) in my ethnic group, "all i see is a whole bunch of white people helping a humongous amount of black people the best way they can" ... i saw Sean Penn actually in the water helping folk, but i didn't see Jay-Z and P-Diddy, and poor black folk are suppose to be there peeps! ... Things that make you go hmmmmmm ... i expect unsaved black folk, and the so called opportunistic Rev's Jackson and Sharpton to play the race card whenever possible, but it hurts me to my heart when any American-African Christian can't take off the dark glasses of past racial wrongs to allow the clear vision of the Holy Spirit as to what is happening now ... By God's grace and guidance to the point of enabling my good common sense, i can see where the faults lie ... The chain of command and communication in any emergency is local, state and federal, at which point the initial two sadly failed ... It didn't do the poor citizens of New Orleans any good for their Mayor to tell them to get out, instead of firing up all those hundreds of school buses to getting them out, as it also didn't do the left behinds any good to be told by the Mayor to go to the Super Dome when in fact there was no provisions for them when the got there ... And on the state level with the Govenor, her ineptitude is just to great to go into, to say nothing of the archaic laws on the books of Mississippi, Alabama and Loisiana that dismiss the Federal government from any doings in their emegencies because they were so bent our of shape during the Civil Rights years of the Federal governments support of that movement ... But no, it's easier for folk to propigate false witness against ones fellow man, than to sit, glean and gather facts towards the truth ... If anything anymore in America if we do in fact have an "ism" problem it's not "racism", but "classism" ... Today rich, upper and middle class blacks have the same disdain as our white counterparts for those they call "poor white trash", and most modern white folk now know that there's that same class distinction when they think of American-Africans ... There's always something good that comes out of every tragedy, and for this saint if it's nothing but our Lord exposing charlatans and there poisinous self serving messages, by toppling on them their own self built weak walls of personal gain ... Then i say Lord, if they won't repent, then do them like Jericho! ... Thru this, and the other disasters coming, God's about to fix a whole lot of mess that needs fixin ... :beard:

Br. Rahman wrote: If anything anymore in America if we do in fact have an "ism" problem it's not "racism", but "classism" ... Today rich, upper and middle class blacks have the same disdain as our white counterparts for those they call "poor white trash", and most modern white folk now know that there's that same class distinction when they think of American-Africans ... I have a Chinese Brother hear at work whose parents live in New Orleans near the Mississippi River. They are some of those who still will not leave their home. They are in their 70's and will not leave for they fear relocation, According to my friends testimony, back in 1969 during another devastating hurricane, many of the same areas of the city was flooded as they are today. Back then the white population inhabited those areas. After that hurricane, the white population never returned, And now the poorest of the poor took up residence in these same flood impacted areas. So what we are experiencing now are pictures of poverty.The events of 911 impacted the wealth of this nation. It might be interesting to compare the response of that situation to the response of this situation. One might say that the two events cannot be looked at in like manner. What I am pointing to is not the specific circumstances but the response. I heard yesterday that the Insurance companies do not expect to pay out as much as they had to in the 911 incident. Also we are still spending how many billions we don't have to fight terrosist we don't know. Amos 3:11 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:\t“An adversary shall be all around the land;\tHe shall sap your strength from you,\tAnd your palaces shall be plundered.” Everywhere one turns the leaders of the world seem to be more foolish with each passing day,In ChristJeff

The reality is that this is a disaster that could have been avoided had infrastructure money been put into the levee system, which failed.This is an important observation Neil...President Bush’s supposed racism (sic) did not create the graft and negligence of the New Orleans government. In recent years, more money was given to the Army corps of engineers in Louisiana then any other state. Why didn't local government take care of business and why are these same leaders blaming the president? If everyone knew the levees were vulnerable then the state and city governments are accountable. Perhaps the federal government should invade every city in order to save us all from our own lack of responsibility in repairing vital infrastructure. (Just kidding.)Of course in the midst of the crisis, none of this is important right now. Civil rights? Civil rights has always been regarded as a left wing type thing...and therefore verboten to a white evangelical church I see increasingly as a harlot of the right wing in America,Brother, with all sensitivity for your feelings, this is really a politically manufactured statement. I'm "white" and "evangelical" and I care very deeply about civil rights. I am not the composite demographic that popular media keeps talking about. If you are going to stereotype "white" Christians, then how can you denounce racism? When you portray "white" conservative Christians as all behaving the same way, aren't you, in fact, participating in racism? It is provocative but perhaps not productive. I, like many others, have been struck with the almost universal outpouring of support and compassion for the victims of this disaster. I can honestly say that everyone I have talked to is doing at least a little something to help out. In my community, churches, schools, business, and individuals are all giving money and most remarkably, their time. In all of this it is stupefying how transfixed we are by the media. Their opinions and agenda determines the issues we talk about. They penetrate the walls of our homes and tell us how to see the world through their eyes instead of Christ’s. They show pictures of African Americans carrying television sets when they could simply pan their cameras 20 degrees and show us African Americans helping their neighbors. Then they talk abstractly about "racism" when they could report on the help that is coming from not just every sector of America, but also the world, in reaction to human suffering. They play the flute for us, and oh how we dance.Bless you brothers and sisters,MC

Hi Compton...!Very well said. :-)

In all of this it is stupefying how transfixed we are by the media. Their opinions and agenda determines the issues we talk about. They penetrate the walls of our homes and tell us how to see the world through their eyes instead of Christ’s. They show pictures of African Americans carrying television sets when they could simply pan their cameras 20 degrees and show us African Americans helping their neighbors. Then they talk abstractly about "racism" when they could report on the help that is coming from not just every sector of America, but also the world, in reaction to human suffering. Very well said indeed. And thanks Rahamn for a refreshing perspective.

Neil wrote,Quote:"Civil rights? Civil rights has always been regarded as a left wing type thing......and therefore verboten to a white evangelical church I see increasingly as a harlot of the right wing in america, GRIEVOUS!!"AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Brother Neil. This is truth that so many don't want to hear. The current evangelical church in America is a whore and a prostitute in many, many, many ways, but especially to the right wing political American agenda. I am as political as Christ was (not at all)!!! I support neither right or left wing politics, thinking and teaching, but Jesus Christ thinking and teaching , which is neither. I’m most concerned with the Kingdom of Heaven and not the kingdoms of the earth and the world. But those who are fooled into thinking the right wing (George Bush) politics in America is anything but Satanic (as well as left wing (Bill Clinton) American political thinking) are just plainly deceived. Right wing American politics are just as Satanic as left wing American politics.!!! (If not ten times MORE!) And you are absolutely correct, in my opinion, that the white evangelical American church is increasingly a harlot and prostitute of the right wing demonic forces in America.GRIEVOUS!!!We need to be concerned with the Kingdom of Heaven and not the kingdoms of this world!!!Did Jesus lead a thousand or million man march to Rome to protest their political agenda against the Jews and try to get Caesar to pass more moral laws, forcing Roman citizens under law to live more moral lives (like modern Iran or Saudi Arabia) or did He preach the Kingdom Heaven and rivers of living water?Left and especially right wing political American Christianity is anti-Jesus!THANK YOU NEIL for bringing to light such truths!Oh yeah, I am as white as white can be, with red hair, a red beard and the fairest of fair skin. (of northern European, Russian, Siberian and Northern German decent and 100% born and bread American citizen)

Hi Patrick,With all due respect and to Neil as well, might I put forth this challenge? If this be true, then why the compulsion to get caught up in all the rhetoric? It seems a bit all too easy to broad brush everything in this way.There is a bit of a breakdown in dichotomy between these two statements: I support neither right or left wing politics, thinking and teaching, but Jesus Christ thinking and teaching , which is neither.Left and especially right wing political American Christianity is anti-Jesus!Not purposefully trying to prove you but just to give pause to muse on whats back of all this.A part of the problem you might have in the words you have used is in the scriptures themselves. Consider:Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Rom 13:1-7Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 1Pe 2:13-17 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Tit 3:1,2I exhort therefore, that, first of all,supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:1-3To draw out even more, there is the sense of bitterness and bitting criticism, where does this come up from? Am probing deeper here and in a general kind of way. Do we find ourselves often dwelling at the chattering level, where a reactionary impulse comes forth? If these things matter less to us than we propose, then why the penchant to divide up the camps, put a broad brushed label on them, pit one against the other and then dismiss the whole thing as Satanic?It's rather odd that a willingness to use the ways of the worlds thinking, 'their' particular language, to jump into the fray an give editorial comment and then extract oneself from the whole thing as being above it all. Seems to give that impression at any rate. In others words, "Why go there?"It's just food for thought. My opinion is just as worthless as the next but a concern for what we tend not to think about in these things. The finger pointing always has to start with ourselves and my own inclusion is to hear myself think out loud even as the words get typed. Are we asking the wrong questions? Making the wrong 'statements' to the greater body of believers out there? What about the difficulties in other nations and governments represented here? Do we not find it at all strange that these same ones do not come forth with the rhetoric of their representative politics from their particular countries? New Zealand and India and Australia and Britain and so on and so forth? Is it just us Americans who have a wide range of freedom and yes problems, but is it only us and especially as believers that are so taken with these things that a compulsion to just spew forth controversies and get embroiled in it all?Another way of looking at it. 'Right wing' and 'Left wing' is not fact or reality but created. It's to draw a line and setup a certain criteria and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (not in the biblical sense). If you buy into the certain constructs of one 'side' then you are given to the 'party', to it's thinking or at least that is the sentiment behind it. If you hold to neither, than a judgment is presumed and someone will gladly put you into one or the other for you. It's all just a bit too easy when the issues cross over to both 'sides' and then the retractions and backpedaling and manipulating of reason and motive, sticking to 'party lines'... is it any wonder that the great cry of partisan politics comes up so often? Funny thing is, it's their own doing. They created it. The wrong question seems to be not whether Did Jesus lead a thousand or million man march to Rome to protest their political agenda against the Jews and try to get Caesar to pass more moral laws, forcing Roman citizens under law to live more moral lives (like modern Iran or Saudi Arabia) or did He preach the Kingdom Heaven and rivers of living water?No He did not, nor did He get embroiled in pointing out the fact that He didn't.Ever notice in the New Testament how lacking all this is? For all intents and purposes it is primarily ignored in particulars, those that we are want to get all caught up in. Instead it seems to be a submission to the rulers, how that must chaff us! Obviously we don't have to buy into any of it as thought per se, but as to conduct in abiding by the laws set forth that do not supersede scripture.Fully realize that there is a lot of truth still in much of these things and can easily get caught up in over generalizing or attempting to make the complex simple. "Christendom" is quite broad and entails both the nominal and the serious or devout, those, like many here are deeply serious about going on with the Lord. Maybe I am learning from all this interaction, have reversed course often and still am willing to do so.What I am finding more and more as the progression goes on, is to what really matters. How much of the things we can be so passionate about as they are current, fade off into oblivion as time moves forward. Just a look back over some of the things that have been brought out here. An example would be how there was such a great controversy over "The Passion of the Christ". Even before it was released, all the build up and speculations and opinions and presumptions, the great 'revival' that would be spurned on from it. When it was released it was given the once over and the dividing of camps more entrenched. One side supposing and proclaiming the multitudes would be soon ushered into the Kingdom while the naysayers and theologians tore it up over various disputes. And what happened when the dust finally settled? Not much. Where is it now in the conscience of Christians? Faded, past, distant. And to the masses? Did they come screaming into the Kingdom, repenting and turning to the Lord as was pronounced with such assurance?As long as the Lord tarries there will be the 'next thing' to draw away our attention, to get ourselves all up in arms about, one more item to bring about division, one more issue to vehemently oppose until the next one takes it's place. All the while eternity is put on the back burner for another day, death approaches and snaps at our heels. Our hearts are given short shift to concentrate on the topical, the current, the fleeting. Why did our Lord constantly draw our attentions inwardly to the matters at the core of our being and yet we are want to turn away from that? Even right now with such a reality, oddly and maybe paradoxically present in todays current event of great magnitude, the devastation off the coast. It just doesn't get any more 'practical' than this. It's not an object lesson, it's fact and reality in all it's brutality. There is nothing abstract about it nor any opinion necessary other than the presupposing of some who have deemed it necessary to pronounce Gods judgment on whatever particulars they have reasoned out of their fallen heads... Gods judgement is stated and fixed, how it gets worked out in effect... I just wonder at the ease that it comes from our lips often times, that's all, it's to dismiss the question altogether as the Lord did, to ask another and more searching one. If this isn't humbling enough for saint and sinner alike, that we are but dust heading for the wind, I don't know what it will take to bring this home to our souls.And that is perhaps all that I am attempting to drive at, what is going on there?

Hi Christisking and Neilgin1...While I believe that Americans should take a stand on political issues (especially issues that deal explicitly with the cause of undeniable righteousness), I agree that Christians should not "sell out" to either the right nor the left in an issue. I am reminded of what happened when Joshua met the Captain of the host of the Lord:13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.When Joshua asked the angel whose side he was on, the angel indicated that he was on the side of God. I must confess that I don't know for certain whether or not President George W. Bush is born again. I have never met him. However, I know that the President does claim to be a believer, and has given the testimony of his conversion on numerous occasions. But under the same thought, I don't know for certain whether you are saved either. I have not met you. Therefore, I cannot pass judgment on your spiritual condition. Likewise, it would be unhealthy for me to go around judging the heart of any man. We are permitted to judge the actions of a person, or the moral and doctrinal beliefs that people hold. But the heart and condition of a man is only truly understood by God. Unfortunately (and far too often), certain believers feel that they can know for certain a particular person's spiritual condition. Yes, you will know them by their fruit. But all too often, such "knowing" already contains preconceived judgment toward such individuals. Usually, a judgmental person will pick a single piece of fruit -- and judge the entire tree (or even orchard) by that one bad fruit. They are willing to condemn a person based on a such faulty evidence. Such judgmental behavior is immature and can be very damaging, both to themselves and others.I know that the far-left (including Hollywood celebrities, and many in the media) tend to hold quite a bit of hatred and disgust toward President Bush. But much of this hatred for him is due to his stands on certain moral issues (against abortion, against gay marriage, for the teaching of abstinence in sex education, for the teaching of creation and "intelligent design" in public schools, for public displays of religious faith, etc...). On these issues (that the media tends to attack the most), I stand behind the President. It is silly to label those who hold similar values as being "harlots" of the "right wing." Yes, there are those who vote by ignorance. But what is amazing is that the most socially and morally "conservative" ethnicities and races today hold these values, but often vote the opposite (source: 2002 General Social Survey).Should a Christian be involved in the political system? This question could be (and probably has been) debated for centuries. In a conventional two party system (like used in the United States), both parties are often out-of-touch with Christian doctrine, and have histories that demonstrate a lack of faith. I believe that no one (especially believers) should blindly support one party over another. They should understand the issues that are most important, and vote accordingly.Abortion, for instance, kills roughly 3,000-4,000 unborn babies per day! This is one of the major reasons that I vote the way that I do. While the number of abortions per year in the United States has fallen in recent years, there are still nearly a million legal abortions performed in this nation. While it is not always the case, it has become the norm for liberals (mostly Democrats) to support and fight for this practice (as part of the Party Caucus). There are, or course, exceptions for this. There are a few Democrats that oppose abortion. However, that is not the norm. The overwhelming majority support some sort of abortion rights legislation.There are many other issues that I consider in determining my vote. There are issues dealing with homosexuality, civil rights, crime control/prevention/punishment, and "free speech" (both protective and abusive). There are also economic, social and relational issues that also are webbed around the framework of our lives in this nation. A person who leaves the scene of an accident and fails to render aid can be charged with a crime in this country (the "Good Samaritan" laws). These people have the ability to act -- yet do nothing. They attempt to close their eyes and ears to a person in need. Unfortunately, many Christians evidently hold the same such guilt. They blame the entire political system as being "demonic" and fail to use their vote in order to take a stand against certain causes of unrighteousness, or make a difference with their vote. Paul used the political system of the Roman Empire in order to "appeal unto Caesar." He did this in order to bring the Gospel to Rome (then capital of the world), and eventually to "Caesar's household (Philippians 4:22)." God was able to use the local and state political system in order to steer David Wilkerson in his attempt to reach the hurting members of New York City's underworld in the 1950s and 1960s. You can also thank such political processes for your ability to write such a post on this message board today. In certain nations, such free expression would result in the death of both the writer and the reader.Thus, it is important that Christians don't hold a passive role in life. This week, I spoke to a dear old man of God who served as a "missionary" to Chile for many years during the 1950s-1990s. He told me of his struggles of preaching the Gospel to the indigenous people, and the wonderful experiences of seeing such unreached groups come to the knowledge of God. However, he said that the most opposition that he faced came from other ministers. Once, when many were dying from bacteria found in the water, this missionary told me that several of the other ministers just threw their hands in the air and said that this was "the will of God." My friend told them, "No, it was the bacteria in the water that killed these people." He said such pacifism is common amongst some of the older missionaries and pastors who believe that it is wrong to use such "worldly means" to bring about good. Thus, many turn their backs on the notion of bringing medical workers or teachers of anything other than the Bible. The same is sadly true with Christians. They have closed their door to the notion of getting involved in anything outside the Church, fellowship of believers, or Christian home. I have noticed that a few certain believers within the SermonIndex community are often vocal critics of President Bush. They use the forums as an opportunity to state biased political beliefs, and then feign that they are non-political. Interestingly, some of these same believers are very quiet when other politicians (particularly "liberal" politicians) spew hatred toward "conservative" beliefs, or toward the rights of believers in America. Perhaps they are not as "non-political" as they think.I do not consider myself a Republican or a Democrat. I could care less if I am white, black, or multi-racial. First and foremost, I am a Christian. The mind of Christ should dictate my life and my views. In some ways, I would be considered a political conservative. But on some issues, I would be considered a political liberal. I am not certain that an absolute liberal or an absolute conservative truly exists. This concept should be realized before "throwing stones" at fellow believers and considering them as "whores of the right wing." And we must also understand that, contrary to the popular cliché, not everything is "black and white." Only God (and his Word) is totally pure, and only sin is totally evil. None of us are perfect. Thus, there is alot of room for "grey" patience. We are all on the same journey, even though some of us may or may not be on different paths (either broad or narrow). I suggest that we start viewing one another with that same amount of patience. :-)

To the Jews the Romans were among the most cruel occupation force in their history. The silence of scriptures as far as anti-Roman or anti-government rhetorics are concerned is almost deafening. The only thing Jesus directly said about Caesar was for everyone to give him his due.Racial and political issues are often too tempting to get into even for Christians. The issue is at the core never about Bush, for example, but on the authority and position as president... IT is time I believe that we pause and ponder on things that move and motivate us.

GrannieAnnie wrote:We're on the same page MD, but just a different paragragh, as you can see where I agree with you here https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7179&forum=35&2 . But "to know the times", as in "knowledge", is through-out The Word of God. We are to have "knowledge" before we vote or back up anything. "Christians", having "the mind of Christ", Should be the most well versed and knowledgable people on earth, for more reasons then I could begin to post here, else, we make fools of ourselves and witness, in front of a dying world, plus risk being deceived ourselves, in These days.Hi Annie,I understand where you're coming from. However my concern is precisely what you mentioned here. Christ and the apostles had that personal knowledge about governing authorities and yet it never triggered any critical response from them. Their focus was on something else which is the furtherance of God's kingdom. It seems that if the apostles and others were not sent to confront personally the specific sin/s of a particular individual, they covered them (as in "cover their nakedness") by their public silence although I believe they were vocal about this to the Lord.God bless.Rey

Krispy wrote: "These people who are crying racism should look at the mayor of New Orleans (who happens to be African American) and ask him where all the money went that the federal government has sent them in the past (millions and millions of dollars) that was appropriated toward upgrading those levies. It all disappeared... where I come from thats called misappropriation of funds."You mite want to do some more research. the money that was going to the levies were cut by none other then mr.Bush It's also the army corp. that dose the work. when you call some one a thief get the fact's Also at Charity hospital the head doctor had to stand by while the rich were being taken from Tulane by helicopter. his patience were just ignored, two died while waiting, they were later taken out by trucks.there is shame on america for the handing of americans in need

You might want to give this a look, posted it elsewhere but it does appear that there is a bit more to be taken into consideration.Gone With the Water

it does appear that there is a bit more to be taken into consideration.Wow. (edit: amazingly accurate prediction...)I sense the levee of blame is about to break...

Being a traitor to ones country is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You have innocent blood on your hands if you vote for one person who supports abortion.In Christ,GaryE

Hi Neilgin1...This is Chris, but not from Texas. I only attend school here. I'm not actually from Texas, but I was raised on the east coast (mostly in Virginia Beach). My parents now live near Nashville, so I guess I am sort of a "nomad." In fact, I have relatives all over the country (from Hawaii, California to New England), and I have had the chance to visit with most of them. So I feel familar with just about every part of the country, except for the midwest and the extreme south. No, I wasn't particularly referencing you in my last post, although you do often seem to be a very vocal critic of the President or the "right wing" of American politics. I guess that the only concern that I have about such vocal criticism of the right is that you don't seem to be as vocally critical of the left. Yes, those who claim to be believers should hold themselves to higher standards. But as with most men of God in the Bible, the standards that we hold men to often are never obtained by men. Also, such criticism that is directed at particular individuals in politics (or an entire group of stereotypes, like the "white evangelicals" that you mentioned) can often make your message seem directed at individuals, rather than at any type of root cause.Over the past year or so, I have noticed some very sincere believers in the forum direct some questionable accusations at the President or even other ministers. While it is a good thing to question everything (in fact, we are commanded to in I Thessalonians 5:21), it seems that at least some people have posted more from preconceived prejudices rather than inarguable fact. Most of these critics do not know the President. In fact, most have never met him. They rely on resources that come from secondhand sources, or often, a media that is particularly critical of the stand of conservatives on social issues (even if it is hypocritical, as some suggest). In graduate school, one of the first things that we were taught was to stop relying on secondhand sources for information and research (such as books, magazines and even academic or professional journals). All such works, according to the standards of true research, are opinionated and inadvertantly biased. So graduate students are required to travel and research original documents and sources. Recently, I traveled to the Carter Center and the Jimmy Carter Presidential Library. There, I obtained original, firsthand documents that dispelled many of the rumors, myths and "urban legends" about certain key events during the Carter Administration. I believe that all Christians should share such a similar desire to find truth in all matters. Instead of making populist blanket accusations about matters, firsthand or documented truth (or "proof") allows a person to understand the real story of such matters, and not what is reported by the media (or even the "underground" media). Like I said before, most Americans do not know the President of the United States. Yet many of them have made terrible claims about him, judging his heart and motives by what they perceive to be truth. And unfortunately, some people have made statements based on rumors that they have heard or articles published in the media, rather than on unbiased fact. Remember, things are usually not always what they appear to be. Even with this war, some have made blanket accusations about his motivation:"The problem I have with this administration is their tendency towards reflexive deceit as a policy choice. If they are godly leaders, than they model to the world how a believer in Christ does things. To date, the inherent deceit within a publicly acknowledged Christian leader, bush is quite poor, and to a new believer (me) really really depressing."While it is indeed saddening to see deceit being practiced in politics, it is quite possible that the Administration was mistaken when deciding to take action in Iraq. Perhaps, like Colin Powell has repeatedly said, the intelligence of the United States, Russia and the United Kingdom did seem to indicate that Saddam Hussein held weapons of mass destruction that he had at one time indicated that he was willing to use against the United States, the United Kingdom and Israel."If to be a 'christian' means I have to act walk think and talk like bush/rove/delay/frist, i want nothing to do with that, it's fleshly goobledegoop...away with it!!"This is probably one of the biggest arguments used today against becoming a Christian. I often speak to non-believers who use this argument for why they never become Christians. They see alot of hypocrisy from television evangelists or local "believers," and they decide that they are "better off" without joining such hypocrisy. We are never supposed to "walk, think and talk" like anyone other than Jesus. Every other "example" will let us down. Even many of our Biblical "heroes" have some checkered pasts. David was a man of war -- who even murdered one of his thirty "mighty men" because of getting his wife pregnant. He made a terrible example of himself in the eyes of many people. Yet he is still considered a "man after God's own heart." In fact, when Hezekiah cried out to God concerning his health and the safety of his city, God spoke to him through the prophet Isaiah:6And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. II Kings 20:6Other men of God from the Word have made terrible mistakes. Noah got drunk. Abraham chose to discard God's promise and impregnate Hagar. Jacob was a deceiver. Moses hit the rock twice. Peter lived a double standard. We could go on to name many other figures of the faith who made terrible mistakes. I fear that if one of them was an elected official today, many believers would want to impeach him.As I stated in my earlier post, I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. Yes, I am white. And I am evangelical (well, in the sense that I hope to win the lost). But I am conservative on some issues and liberal on others. And I only vote for a particular candidate after much prayer (and often, fasting). There are some issues that stand out more than others, like abortion. While it is conceivable that some conservatives really do not care about stopping abortion, they will almost always do more to stop it than liberals -- especially in their appointment of Judges. Since conservatives took control of Congress in late 1994, abortions in the United States have decreased dramatically (from about 1,350,000 in 1994 to about 850,000 in 2001 -- a decrease of 38%). In fact, the number of abortions in 2004 was the lowest since 1975. During this same period of time, teen pregnancies also decreased by about 20% (source: CDC National Health Statistics, June 2005). Many point to the increased teaching of abstinence as a direct cause for such a decrease. Support for abstinence based sexual education did not come from liberal politicians. On the contrary, many liberal political figures support teaching "practical" sex education (passing out condoms and teaching how to have "safe" sex) to students as young as 9 years old. Anyone remember David Dinkins? If not, there is a sermon by David Wilkerson that speaks about this former Democratic mayor of NYC and his support for groups like NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association), which supports eventually lowering the legal age of consent to 8 years old. Dinkins also supported "homosexual normalcy" education taught in NYC schools (remember "Heather Has Two Mommies?"). Dinkins further supported teaching children as young as the 2nd grade how to use "oral dams" which are used for oral sex. Like I stated earlier, I have never met President Bush, so I don't know that I can judge that he is or is not a real believer. Only God can judge the heart of a man. We are left only with an ability through the Word to judge the actions of a person. But like I stated before, we cannot base "fruit inspection" on a single piece of fruit. How many Christians are willing to burn down an entire orchard because they found one bad piece of fruit. I am just hopeful that such people will not face a similar judgment of their own lives. I implore everyone (as a brother in the faith) to pray for President Bush. Remember that "the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will" (Proverbs 20:1). God can hear our prayers, and act on behalf of this nation. The heart of President Bush is in God's hand. When Bill Clinton was going through all of the Monica Lewinsky affair, I felt that Christians should pray for him, rather than gossip about him. I did not agree with most of Bill Clinton's social or moral ideas. But I saw him as a man that had a great potential to be used for God if he would just wholeheartedly seek God's face. I feel the same way about the current President. If believers would pray for him as often as they speak against him, perhaps some great things could happen. Perhaps America is (or is becoming) Babylon. Should we just sit by and let secular humanish become a norm without opposition? Of course not! But while things can often seem bleak, remember that the God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). Never forget the promise of God, as mentioned in that verse that most of us know so well:" 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."II Chronicles 7:14 :-)

Hi GrannieAnnie...!Thank you so much for the link. There are some great articles found from the theology page found within the link that you sent. While I don't necessarily agree with the article about President Bush, I am grateful that the author seems to allow readers to make up their own minds rather than try to influence the reader to blindly agree with him. As with everything, I will be studying and praying about what is posted here by everyone, and I will ask the Lord to lead us and guide us into all truth.I don't think that anyone who questions anyone or anything (including the President) is a traitor. In fact, I believe that believers should question everything. And I totally agree with your support for unbiased research. It is unfortunate that in the past, some posters have been unable to distinguish between unbiased research and media propaganda (or "reports" disguised as articles) concerning spiritual or political issues. This being said, I am grateful to find people of faith that have seriously considered facts rather than blindly accepting the words of other men.I am so glad that we can still be united in the matters of faith and love, even with such disagreements on matters of politics. I typically do not post anything on political matters, because there have been some heated debates between various believers in the forums. Besides, most of the posters seem rather convinced one way or the other. Replying to such posts often leads to discord, with two sides arguing over which side is correct.I will be praying that God allows a truly pro-life person to occupy the White House in 2008 (as well as the Supreme Court this next term). I love to hear from you, and I take your words very seriously. I have been so challenged and blessed by your posts! :-)

Hi GrannieAnnie...!Thanks for writing back. I went to bed, but my "wisdom teeth" are coming in, and it is just a little painful (enough to wake me up). So, I took a Tylenol and decided to get online until I can go back to sleep (for at least an hour or two before getting ready for Church). Please pray for my jaw. :-P"Anyhow, I sorta had to laugh, not at you, but at something you said. What did you think you would find 'about' Jimmy Carter, at his 'own' Library ?"I'm not certain if you have had the chance to visit any Presidential libraries yet, but they contain a vast amount of documents, files and tapes from each President's administration. In fact, they contain nearly every document -- both good and bad. As for the documents that are deemed "vital" to national security or history, the library usually has a photocopy of every document related to the Administration that is found in the National Archives. Many of these documents have seldom (if ever) been seen by anyone. They are not "owned" by the particular President, but by the Government. Thus, by law, they cannot be altered. They offer a firsthand source for information, whereas books are a secondhand source."About II Chronicles 7:14, I mean no harm, believe me (and I think you know that), but that verse was to Israel."This is true (that the verse is addressed to the nation of Israel). But remember, those believers that are not jewish by race have been adopted and "grafted into the vine." Such believers are the spiritual nation of Israel. And God is "no respector of persons." He shows no favoritism. And we shouldn't forget that a nation is not restricted by territorial boundaries. The nation of Israel once consisted as a diaspora. That promise was just as true during that period as under Solomon."And we are not a "two-party" nation, as someone said earlier.We had 5 parties running this last time, and one of them was a real strong Christian, anti-abortion, etc., guy, who ran under the Constitutional Party."I understand that there are many political parties. But for all practical purposes, this nation has historically been a two-party system. Initially, the election system was not this way. The largest recipient of votes became the President, and the second largest recipient became the Vice President (even if they were from a different party). During the first elections, the two parties were the "Federalists" and the "Democratic-Republicans." Currently, the two major parties are the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Some political theorist believe that the other parties serve primarily as an alternative outlet with little (if any) chance of ever winning an election. Sometimes, these parties "split the vote" and allow one party to prevail without a majority of votes. Because he was a liberal, Democrats accused Ralph Nader to have caused this in 2000. However, there were many other small conservative groups running as well, and their accumulated support outnumbered Ralph Nader. The last time a serious third party candidate directly effected the outcome of a national election was in 1992. H. Ross Perot garnered about 19% of the vote (mostly from registered Republicans). Consequently, President Bush, who was leading substantially in the polls before Perot entered the race, only managed to receive 37.5% of the vote, and Clinton won with a mere 43% of the vote. Some political scientist theorize that this is damaging to the nation's electoral system, because it has become "normal" for a person to win a national election without winning a majority of votes. In 1996, Clinton won with 49% of the vote. In 2000, Bush Jr. won with only about 48% of the vote. Some are beginning to warm to the idea of having a runoff election in order to allow a candidate to receive at least half of the popular vote in order to win the Presidency. But the electoral college would also have to be modified (or disintegrated) in order to accomplish this. Some accuse third party candidates as a vote "thrown away" that creates unfair outcomes for candidates of the major parties. Still, a third party vote can be seen as a serious option for those who believe that both major parties do not represent their feelings."My first post gave a bunch of junk you could type into google and decide for yourself. God help us."I know that you are quite aware of this, but much of the "information" that is found on the internet must be viewed skeptically. While it is a forum for a free exchange of ideas (alot like Athens in Acts chapter 17), much of it should not be viewed as "source material." Many political or Christian websites might seem unbiased in nature, but the underlying intent is often less than honorable. This is true of blogs, reports, journals, and especially true of commercial information and newspapers (like certain liberal newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post -- or even the Discovery Channel). That is why most schools ban the use of internet sources on research papers unless it can be substantiated that such information is both accurate and unbaised.As was pointed out by several people in this thread, there is always another side to most issues. I heard a professor lecture about the importance of real research. He gave a lecture entitled "Why Did Di Die?," concerning the death of Princess Diana. This professor pointed out that if you ask various sources, they will state several various factors that played a part in the death of others. For instance, medical staff will say that Diana died from internal hemmoraging. Engineers will state that faulty automobile or guardrail design killed Diana. Conspiracy theorists will accuse the paparazzi of killing her (by chasing her at high speeds). MADD would say that alcohol killed Diana (since the driver had too much to drink). The paparazzi would accuse the consumer of killing Diana (because the consumer buys magazines with photos of Diana, thus creating the paparrazi frenzy surrounding celebrities). A sociologist would accuse Diana of killing herself, because she was unhappy with Charles, and she was having a secret relationship with Dodi Fayed as a result. A psychiatrist might blame Charles, for causing such feelings in Diana as a result of his ongoing affair with Camilla Parker-Bowles. This list could go on and on. The point is, there are many factors that led to her death, not just one. Some people enjoy simplistic answers to the cause/effect relationship, but it must be remembered that there is sometimes a false causality that is more popular and easy to accept. Like you said, real reseach is the key. A similar understanding can be applied to Christianity today. Well, like you, I have debated posting. I don't like to see such threads erupt into conflict, which sometimes seems to be the case. I just pray that we will all look deeper into truth, and realize that we should question everything that we have been taught in order to actually take a stand on any issue."Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21 :-)

I don't know if this will throw the thread in another direction, but I have a question. Who do we believe, who do we trust?The reason that I ask such questions is that depending on where you look you can find all manner of 'news'. On the one hand you have the mainstream paradigm time/warner/aol Reuters etc. On the other side you have the guys from propoganda matrix and what really happened, alex jones(prison planet)etc.So to phrase the question differently what is the yard stick for measuring the validity of mainstream news, on both sides of the fence?In my country, depending on what language you speak (we have 11 official languages) you get a different news. Sometimes I wonder whats been told them that I am not been told and vice versa? Decisions on where to invest you money, sending your children to school and a whole lot more issues are influenced by what we see and read.So taking this thought a bit further, what do we do in such cases? The bible speaks nothing of insurance policies, endowments what schools to send your kids to and the like, so where do we go for this extra biblical truth? That sounds like a contradiction, but I hope youre getting my point.

Either that, or they get mad at you and accuse you of being arrogant and one who thinks they "Know It All".Actually that is not necessary. Being arrogant is often harder to detect from the side of where the arrogance is coming from. It is also called pride.If you disagree, disagree, but save the cutting remarks. Chris stated some reasonable explanations and his point of view with a modicum of decency never once making any personal assumptions nor character slights.Look at the examples you used:Well, your universities have taught you well.You should work for the propaganda ministry, I mean the News Factory. You'd be great for spinning stories, whether you see that talent in yourself or not.Oh well. Now we are to believe,...Stopped that one short purposefully. This is very much the same continuing problem of "reading into" things that has the trail of bitterness and snideness to it. It does come up here from a few others as well. A challenge to a thought preconceived and then expressed as something never intimated becomes a fact in the mind? No one is telling anyone to believe anything. This is cooked up in your own thoughts. Unwarranted and unnecessary.By time one finishes your posts, they are left to believe that they can never "find the truth out in a matter", no matter where they go, so why even bother.Another assumption and cutting as well.Really Chris ? Your confidence is rather unsettling. Confidence in what secular professors have "taught you" ? Confident enough to adopt that line of thought or belief for your norm and pass it on to younger or more naive Christians ?Where as we are to take your words as something to have more confidence in, just because you say so? What is unsettling is that there is a penchant to do injury at the expense of others even after having gone out of the way to make mention that this is precisely what he would avoid it turning into. But you must go ahead anyway...Let's just sit back and pop another cold one.Childish.That's all I've gotten out of this and it's grieving my spirit really badly right now, to think that you probably believe all that you've said. Has it occurred to you that the opposite might be true?This is a rebuke. If you think that this is more of the same that you would come to expect just because there is a disagreement and therefore proves the legitimacy of your argument you are looking at it from the wrong angle. This is becoming more and more of a poor reasoning from the Lords people. This idea that if I am experiencing opposition than therefore I am 'right'. The very problem with it is inherent in being consumed with attempting to prove oneself by lowering the bar to attack someone personally. Not only the pride in it but you lose all credibility as far as I am concerned.Is this making a presumption as well? Always possible, but when the remarks are right out there for all to see and the frequency of this in others stooping to this level...Notice how none of this even begins to address the issues under consideration? The only recollection I can come up with from the Lord where He even came close to something of this nature was in:Luk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Problem is, He knew all men and we do not.

Annie, I do not know your heart all that well. But enough of it to know that you are passionate and love the Lord. I also realize that these things ought not to have place in any of our hearts, mine included.

You don't know my heart either.You are only reading words in this case, and I can't go into why or excuse what I've said.This talk about the heart of the matter brings to my mind the interesting dynamics of scriptural interpretation. Often when I read a post, I can only read what I read, I respond to what is written, not to the intent of the poster. Some folks, and I include myself in this category, leave to much to the interpretation of the person reading the material. I interpret posts based on what is said, I mean you don't have to be a rocket scientist to tell someone is being short or sarcastic. If you are in doubt, love believes all things even things that may appear to contrary.Thus the true intents of a person can often only be gleaned by frequent use and frequent dialogue between us and ultimately God and his word. How much interpretation of the scriptures is a often seen as a black and white issue without really understanding the true heart motive as to why things are in the bible anyway. I am not in anyway trying to detract from the absolute truth of the word, but more trying to highlight that sometimes our application of the word of God without fully understanding the heart motive behind what is written can lead to bondage and more sadly to a skewed picture of our Father in heaven.Taking this reason to its fullest expression could lead to the danger of never taking the scriptures literally and never taking anything as truth, but you get my heart. 8-)

Taken some time and prayer and some private offline discussion with Ann and needed to confess my own shortcomings here.I was wrong in the manner of how this was addressed in response to the reply to Chris further back in this thread.This thought has been running concurrently of late:First the prose, then the testIn other words, not shortly after a whole long expression of a plea to slow down did I find myself faced with a test here. And I failed it. Did not pray before the posting, let the impulse take over, slighted the whole of slowing down and just reacted. It is a difficult and dangerous reaction to toss out the word 'pride' without first removing the plank and even then it would seem that then the leveling of the charge would be not something to just throw out there after some examination.I handled this poorly.I ask for your forgiveness as I had sought it from Ann in private and now publicly, as it was done here before you all.

Why do we seek a king? Why do we want a politician to be this or that? What purpose does a king serve in terms of the eternal? Why are we stumbling like Israel did in the times of the Judges? 1Sam. 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. 9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”1 Samuel 8:11“This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.” 1Sam. 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” Politics are of this world. Jesus refused to be part of this world. How then should we who are joined with Christ see this world? Those who seek to remain under a king will always be empty of the peace that comes from the King and High Priest. Why, why, why do we seek for the things that will not satisfy?In ChristJeff

Hi Rookie...!I understand your apprehension about government and politics. There are stories throughout history about people who crossed oceans in order to escape the tyranny of a ruler. But remember, these groups did not view government as evil. They just viewed tyranny as such. In fact, the Pilgrims set up the Mayflower Compact, which became the basis for modern Constitutional government:"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereigne Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britaine, France, and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken, for the glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith, and honour of our king and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northerne parts of Virginia, doe, by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politick, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enacte, constitute, and frame such just and equall laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time as shall be thought most meete and convenient for the generall good of the Colonie unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."Thus, not all form of government is wrong. During the period of the Exodus, the Hebrews followed the command and Law of Moses, which set up a simple government consisting of elders. You spoke about the time of the Judges. But remember, after every Judge died, there was a time without leadership, when people "did what was right in their own eyes." During times like these, the nation nearly fell apart. Thus, another Judge would rise who would bring about much needed leadership. The early church itself set up a form of Government. There were apostles and deacons that oversaw the affairs of the Church. Even Paul sought for the approval of the apostles when he met with them. Remember also that America has no king. The founding fathers abhorred the very thought of a leader that would even be modeled as such. In fact, there was a faction of men (under Colonel Nicola) that once sought to make George Washington a "king." He fought the idea -- because he believed that "all kings eventually become tyrants." http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/classroom/civic_virtue3.html Instead, America has a democratic republic. While far from perfect, this nation has stood the test of time. Like it or not, it has recognized "certain unalienable rights" that men still fight for and die for in other nations. When it comes to obeying government, the Bible is explictly clear in Romans 13:1-7: 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.As is true with any nation, a lack of government brings about anarchy. The preceding verses tell us that God has allowed for various government's to come to power, and that we are to be subject to their authority. Jesus himself reminded us to "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." II Peter 2:10 warns us not to "despise government." Paul did not disobey the laws of Caesar -- and even used the Roman political system to "appeal unto Caesar" which enabled him to bring the Gospel into "Caesar's household" (Acts 25:8, Acts 25:11, Philippians 4:22). Of course, our allegiance is first and foremost to God. There are men who refused to adhere to the rule of law if it violated the Law of God (like Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego). But remember, these men still followed the other laws that they were subject to. As was stated before, the leaders of these nations will be held into account for their actions. That is why it is still imperative that we pray for the leaders of nations. There is a view of government that is inspired by a foreboding understanding that this world is deceived, and thus anyone who listens to the government is deceived as well. We all know that the antiChrist will one day enter the picture. There are strong arguments for a pre-trib and post-trib coming of the Lord (I like what Keith Green said: "Pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post-trib"). Regardless, I believe that a true believer that seeks the face of God will not be deceived (remember, it says, "...if it were possible...") by the son of perdition. So what should a believer do? I know that I have spoken to believers that have lived under terrible oppression in Islamic or Communist nations. They came to the United States, and enjoy the freedom of worship that is permitted here. One even told me that not a day goes by that he does not thank God for this nation. Sadly, there are believers in this nation that take such freedom for granted. With the usually bloodless "persecution" that we face in this nation, we forget about men throughout history who were executed for printing Bibles, sharing the Gospel or simply naming the name of Jesus. May God help us to make the most of the opportunity that He has blessed us with in a nation, however hypocritical it may sometimes be, that still allows us such freedom.Esther 4:12-14"...and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"Maranatha! Even so, come Lord Jesus! :-)