Beauty in Roman Catholicism

So should we accept Mormons as "Christians" since they claim they believe in "Christ", even though by their own teachings Christ and Satan are brothers? Catholics may love Christ, but that doesn't negate the fact that they believe that His death at Calvary was insufficient to pay their sin debt. Why else do they continue to "sacrifice" Christ in the eucharist when He died once and for all in order that we may be saved. Why do Catholics believe that they must suffer here on earth or in Purgatory to pay for their sins when the Bible says that our works are as filthy rags? After all, didn't Jesus say "It is finished" on the cross? Is there beauty in Catholicism? Sure, but the harlot has beauty as well.

I took a look at the site and it seems very intriguing. I have to agree that there is a need to slow down, get rid of all the hectic voices within us and around us, and be silent before the Lord. Just like attending church, or any religious activity, this can be either helpful or unhelpful – the difference lies within your own hearts. If you are truly seeking the Lord, he will reveal himself to you, for he has promised to do so. If entering this experience is what you need, then God can open the doors for you to take part. The main thing that I would be concerned about is if the leaders try to take control of your mind, will, and emotions. That is not necessarily a fault of the program but of those who lead it. As you know, that happens in any church – including our evangelical churches. It is always wrong to usurp the place of the Spirit. On the other side of that issue, I must add, that no one can control us unless we let them. That is why we must submit to the Lord first and formost.I agree with you that the RC has many helpful forms of worship that Protestants have tossed out because of fear and prejudice.Here is another thought that has been true for my own life: Sometimes God puts us in unfamiliar territory just to undo some of the patterns, traditions, and viewpoints that we are stuck in. (but don’t realize) That helps us to see things differently, more objectively perhaps. That is why changing denominations can be helpful. Does that help?Diane

Krispy and Tex_Hill, Neil has asked for thoughts on a specific organization and has also included a web link. Why don't you read it and make comments on any aspects of the article that you may be concerned about. That would be more helpful than blanket judgments against the entire denomination. Diane

Neil isn’t asking us to consider the RCC gospel. He is asking us to appreciate specific aspects of their spiritual life and practice. We Protestants may not like mystery…we like our theology to fit together like gear and cogs that tick along like Newton’s laws. This worked great during the past 200 years, but is showing itself insufficient in an age where people no longer have faith in Newtonian physics, and even modern secularism. We sometimes act as if the Gospel is a machine that can be disassembled and explained in a technical manual. Yet 21st century people are wondering if man can know anything from mere apologetics. Not even science is foolproof anymore...this is a new day of opportunity for the Church.So, if we must use phobic words like “mysticism” or “harlot” then let’s do so only for ideas that are heretical to the gospel, not our personal sensibilities. I don’t see any problem for Neil if he finds that reading and listening to the scriptures via the Lectio Divina method fruitful. It sounds like Neil wants to immerse himself in fellowship with the Word, and to bathe in the words of God. "“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you”Personally I feel we place too much emphasis on volume reading…i.e. through the bible in a year and such. I can remember spending months meditating the first few verses in John 1, going over and over them trying to emerge past the text into the reality they contained. Admittedly I could not ever do so but having utterly failed did enable me to see that Christ is both knowable and unknowable.(divine and unsearchable) Within my rediscovery of the enigmatic mystery of Jesus, there is awe and worship of Him. (edit: eternal, non created...)If vital doctrine is not being challenged then I say it sounds like a blessed refuge Neil. We shouldn’t think God’s arm is so short that he can’t reach into the various expressions of Christian faith to touch mankind. Jesus saved even during the dark ages.Christianity is older then the 18th century! If we are only willing to go back as far as Wesley then maybe we are spiritual dandies unable to face the world as it is. We not only have the legacy of the Roman church to dig through, but also the eastern orthodox, the Celtic, and the South American traditions. In a few hundred years, should the Lord tarry, we will have new Christian traditions from southern hemisphere nations and Asia. Are we willing to believe that all of these peoples of different cultual expressions can remain of one Spirit? It’s too bad that the word “ecunemical” has come to mean heretical because Christ is coming back for one Church and they all won’t be Pentacostals.These other church traditions may not have the important sola fide doctrines that we hold to, but they have noble merits in other areas such as spiritual poverty, piety, and devotion that the 21st century American church is in sore need of. We are not wrong in our focus, but we are incomplete in our spectrum…Neil’s post is a welcome recognition that there is more at the table of the Lord then the spiritual hamburgers and milkshakes being marketed by mainstream Christianity.I know much of what I said here can be misconstrued...for what it's worth let me confess my belief that the finest hour for the church (western) was during the reformation, just so you know where my head and heart is. (I'm old school)Yet, I do not think it was the only hour of the church...MC

Hello neilgin1.You are to be commended for your enthusiastic search and understanding of the word of God. It is truly inspiring. May the Lord bless you in your pursuit.But, and I hope you take no offence from this. I believe you are entering a path that is not Biblical. I do believe Annie's warning is real and good. Thomas Merton was the person that is most known in the contemplative prayer circles and if you check out his life you will notice the close connection with eastern mysticism. He was a RCC.I read through the explanation of this kind of prayer-reading-the-word to get closer to God. To engage into this prayer you are required to;1. Silence the mind by focusing on the breath.2. Silence the mind by repetition of a word or phrase etc.3. Silence the mind by focusing on a subject.Further on the imagination also will play a part in this type of activity.By breaking down the scripture you are reading and meditating on it you will not understand the whole meaning but will enter into a mantra relationship with a word instead of a relationship with the Word who became flesh and dwelt with us. Matthew 6:7 tells us not to use vain repetitions and this kind of prayer will surely lead to that.I believe you are entering into something that will lead you away from the God, and His word that you have the desire to know in a deeper way. I believe you also want a subjective experience with God or at least this prayer thing will lead you to that, but do you really know if it is the risen Lord you will meet in these encounters? One of the leading proponents of this kind of prayer is Richard Foster. He says; " I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance that is not divine guidance. While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on the nature of the spiritual world, we do know...there are various orders of the spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection..."All dark and evil spirits must now leave".Further in the same book there is a warning;"Contemplative prayer is not for the novice. I do not say this for any other form of prayer. All are welcome, regardless of proficiency or expertise, to enter freely into adorationand meditation and intercession and a host of other approaches to prayer. But contemplation is different. While we are equally precious in the eyes of God, we are not all equally ready to listen to "God's speech in his wondrous terrible, gentle, loving, all embracing silence".Prayer:Finding the heart's true home. Richard Foster.Dear Neilgin1.Where do we find this prayer approach in the Bible? You already have an access to the throne of God, don't use an alternative way that will lead you away from God. Heb 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. With lovejouko

Hi Jouko,Is there a possible link between what you are saying and meditation?

Hello ZekeO.Depends on what kind of meditation you are talking about? TM certainly has. I used to have a lot of time waiting for the train going home and there was a lot of TM:s on offer, but for some reason I was never tempted to find out what it represented. I thank the Lord for that. There were times when I felt very lonely, but thinking about those times now, I see that my relationship with the Lord wasn't what it should have been. Being lonely and not having the right relationship with the Lord is a very good place for satan to plant and lead you into something that isn't according to God's will.Meditation means, and this I had to check to understand, I'm a Finn after all;Think deeply or focus one's mind for a period of time, in silence or with the aid of chanting, for religious or spiritual purposes or as a method of relaxation. Then you have; meditate upon which is think deeply or carefully about something, plan mentally; consider.I believe we are talking about emptying one's mind in this context, the contemplative prayer. I can't find that in the Bible. I can find this and more though:Psa 49:3 My mouth shall speak wisdom; And the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding. Psa 119:97 Oh how love I thy law! It is my meditation all the day. Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers; For thy testimonies are my meditation. Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. I'm no expert by any imagination. If you would like something to read, visit www.lighthousetrails.com they have some good books by people who have been involved in these types of meditations.Blessingsjouko

Dear Neil I remember periods in my christian walk where there has been a dryness or sense of distance from God, whether due to my own fault or simply God teaching me to walk by faith and not emotion. One thing i must say is that we are vulnerable at those times and satan seizes his advantage to make approaches. Confidence in our own ability or maturity to handle ourselves in his terriority can become our downfall. I must admit i have been attracted many times by the serenity and sense of peace that Catholism seems to express, but unless one "guards their hearts" you can become ensnared, much like people i know who having been in a period of "seacrhing for truth" have rejected the gospel and embraced islam claiming it made more sense to them. Entering into and gaining a closer connection with God will always be by the route of simplicity, obedience and humbleness of Heart "become like a child" brother, and Christ will come to you. Renounce all pride, spiritual and carnal submit to Pastoral counsel lest you be led astray, satan is a master of enticing via good intentions. My continual and daily prayer is "God give me that child like faith, keep me from pride lest i fall, lead me in the way of true brokenness and contrition". Proverbs 30:7-9 Two thing have I required of thee; deny me not before I die: 8 remove from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: 9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.Neilgin1 wrote:I've been looking for a place to go on retreat during what promises to be to be a trying time in my life, starting 7 Oct. There happens to be an AoG "honorBound" retreat, but that just doesn't sing to my heart.What my spirit is really crying out for is a comtemplative monastic sort of retreat, and I was lead to place that looks just what I'm looking for, and it happens to be a Benedictine monastery.The whole point of this post is that I found a paper on "lectio divina".A VERY ANCIENT art, practiced at one time by all Christians, is the technique known as lectio divina - a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God. This ancient practice has been kept alive in the Christian monastic tradition, and is one of the precious treasures of Benedictine monastics and oblates. Together with the Liturgy and daily manual labor, time set aside in a special way for lectio divina enables us to discover in our daily life an underlying spiritual rhythm. Within this rhythm we discover an increasing ability to offer more of ourselves and our relationships to the Father, and to accept the embrace that God is continuously extending to us in the person of his Son Jesus Christ. That just set me on fire, and it happens to be something which originated out of the roman church.let me give you the whole URL:Lectio DivinaMy point of the whole post is this, within the roman church, I'll bet there are more things we can appropriate for worship that point us towards the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and the worship of God......away with popery...yes!! away with the worship of idols...yes!! away with priestcraft and superstition...yes!!But I feel , that their are beautiful elements of communion that we can keep, AND that their are those WITHIN this church, who love Jesus with all their hearts.My spirit tells me if we work overtime to shriek at how apostate and hellbound they are, we play into the hands of the enemy who wishes to divide the WHOLE Bride of Christ. I believe we should love and embrace all brethern who love Jesus.The Lectio Divina is about loving Jesus.

Neil,Several years ago I worked for the US Census Bureau in the field visiting many and/or all the places in any given community. One of these places was what is called locally a monestary. I looked forward to going there, having heard a lot of positive things about it. They offered programs just like you described. I have met people who have been thee and declared it wonderful. Before I went I asked the LORD for discernment when I went there - this having nothing to do with census work, please understand - but with spirituality and their work. Neil, I went there and met the head of their group. And Neil, the place was so COLD, FRIGID. The woman looked at me with hard eyes. There was NOTHING there that spoke of the loving kindness of Jesus, the kind they want to portray to the world. I asked God and he answered. The answer was a loud NO. Just thought I would share my experience and hope it might be a help...ginnyrose

With all the above said, I felt compelled to write re yr original subject.1st, tks for sharing. Many of us understand yr context; sorry the usual RCC baiters and haters used it as a sounding board.LK 11:49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." NIV 2nd, as far as any beleiver from the Republic of Texas should be concerned, their big job should be to stop all the murder that is done in the name of cap punishment. At least the RCC has got that right.3rd, Jews are still God's chosen people. And most under His wrath.Lastly, I would say that there is no Scripture that implies that anyone who worships with Roman Catholics cannot possibly be led, or fed, by the Holy Spirit.

I feel that if we merely respond with a knee-jerk reaction, we’ll miss some important and useful insight… which hit close to home. Religious repetition and patterns have always been very appealing and comforting, perhaps because that gives a sense of stability, predictability, and control. Taize, a popular from of worship in the RCC uses simple repetitive chant-like songs. The purpose of this activity, according to Brother Rogers, the founder of the Taize Commumity ( I can’t find the article) is to free the mind of the clutter of life, an get focused on spiritual truths. In itself, that is not a bad idea – we could use help disciplining our minds. Br. Rogers wished to avoid putting any offensive words in the chants. This sensitivity can also have a down side, making us a slave to political correctness and those who are easily offended. I notice that Jesus was not afraid to “offend” people – esp the pride of the religious leaders. He loved them too much to passively allow them to continue in their delusions.Having said all that, I noticed that the charismatic circles have been chanting for some time, though they would likely be offended to hear it labeled as such. They call it Praise and Worship, experiencing the Spirit, having a “touch”, soaking, or whatever other terms. In itself, that can have good aspects to it. However, contemporary music is often used as a medium to work up the mood into an ecstatic state “of worship” through extended repetition. The mind goes passive, supposedly so it can be filled with the Spirit. The worshippers seem spaced out, in a trance, with glazed-over eyes while they are “worshipping”. However, after watching some people who have been practicing this ritual for an extended time, I’m convinced that their religious habits have not benefited their minds. I can’t hold a conversation about anything too deeply spiritual. Through repetitive mindless religious activity, they have lost the ability to think, discern, understand, judge wisely. Church worship, generally speaking, can be put under this same umbrella. A vast majority of Sunday worshipers leave their brains at the door when they walk into the church. They don’t want to think, just feel good. They don't question what should be questioned. There has always been heavy criticism directed towards any form of worship that is not one’s own preference – old or new, protestant, or RC, charismatic, or traditional… But the bottom line is this: Each participant must think for himself. He must not sell out his mind. Even a Scripture reading is meaningless if he doesn’t actively meditate on it himself and take it to heart. So, the responsibility rests on the worshipper. The great spiritual thinkers of the past, ex Thomas a Kempis, Brother Lawrence, St Francis of Assisi, etc did not passively submit to the religious trends of their day, even though they may have remained in it. They used their MINDS, and as a result they had something of immense value to offer to countless generations. Their writings transcend any denominational boundaries. Diane

Amen, Lahry.God BlessNellie :-)

The beauty of Christianity appeals to the Spirit,Just thought you should change the word Christianity to Christ. Christianity (religion) appeals ot the flesh. The beauty of CHRIST appeals to the new nature - not the old. Diane

With all the above said, I felt compelled to write re yr original subject.1st, tks for sharing. Many of us understand yr context; sorry the usual RCC baiters and haters used it as a sounding board.LK 11:49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." NIV The key to this verse is that the man was casting out demons in Christ's name. The Catholic Church is certainly not working in Christ's name today, nor has it at any time in history. The Catholic Church has done more to hurt the cause of Christ than any other entity. It's only concern is itself. Why else force priests to be celibate and to give all their possessions to the Church.The Catholic Church is also not for us by a long shot. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The Catholic Church has never rescinded the decrees that led to this terror. As a matter of fact, even today Protestant missionaries have been threatened with imprisonment in countries where the Catholic Church is the official state church. Doesn't sound like they are for us does it.2nd, as far as any beleiver from the Republic of Texas should be concerned, their big job should be to stop all the murder that is done in the name of cap punishment. At least the RCC has got that right.Wrong again. Perhaps this would help:The Bible and Capital PunishmentBy Gregory KouklI. The Bible and Capital PunishmentA. Capital punishment was commanded by God in the Old Testament.1. It preceded the Mosaic Law.Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.2. It was based on the dignity of man, i.e. man's transcendent value.Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.3. It was commanded in the Mosaic Law.a. Twenty-one different offenses called for the death penalty in the Old Testament.b. Only three include an actual or potential capital offense, by our standards.c. Six are for religious offenses.d. Ten are for various moral issues.e. Two relate to ceremonial issues.4. "But King David wasn't put to death for his capital crimes."a. David understood what justice demanded in this case: "As the Lord lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die." 2 Sam 12:5b. If God chose to set aside punishment, that doesn't mean the punishment is unjust when it is executed. God was the one who required capital punishment in many instances.B. Capital punishment was assumed in the New Testament.1. God ordains governing authorities:a. Jn 19:11 Jesus answered [to Pilate], "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above."b. Rom 13:1-2 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.c. 1 Pet 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.2. Those governments may practice capital punishment.a. Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.b. Acts 25:11 If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar.C. Jesus' ethic of love and forgiveness doesn't disallow capital punishment.1. "But Jesus would forgive."a. This argument proves too much. 1) It becomes an argument against any punishment what-so-ever.2) What should we do with the criminal we've forgiven? a) Life in prison instead of capital punishment? b) But Jesus would forgive.b. Jesus never challenged the validity of the death penalty. 1) In Jn 8:3-11, for example, there were no witnesses left to testify against the woman caught in adultery (the Law required at least two witnesses).2) Jesus actually upheld the Law here, He didn't abrogate it, but He did so in a way that wouldn't allow the evil designs of the Scribes and Pharisees to be accomplished. c. Jesus asked God to forgive, not Caesar; He didn't suggest civil punishment or capital punishment was inappropriate.d. We must argue for the coherence and consistency of both Testaments. 1) The question is not, "Was Jesus right or was Moses right?" 2) We must also factor in Paul and Peter.2. "Jesus was crucified."a. I'm not sure what the point is here? Yes, Jesus was the victim of capital punishment, but what follows from that?b. The real issue regarding Jesus was not capital punishment, but His innocence. 1) Peter assails the act of handing over an innocent man to godless executioners.2) Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (Acts 2:22-23)3. But what about forgiveness?a. God's mercy is always available in His court. b. Man's court is another matter, governed by different biblical responsibilities.D. One simply can't say that capital punishment is patently immoral on biblical grounds.1. Jesus did not "abolish the Law," He fulfilled it, but not in the sense that all laws are wiped from the books. Then we would have no punishment for any biblical crimes.2. Matt 5:17-19Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------II. Retributionism vs. RehabilitationismA. Each position is based on a particular view of man.1. Rehabilitationisma. Man is sick, needing healing.b. Man is a machine needing fixing.2. Retributionisma. Man is a free moral agent who makes choices for which he can be held responsible for.b. Man is worthy of praise, resulting in reward, or blame, deserving punishment.B. The case for retributionism1. Man a free moral agent.a. He is capable of choosing good or bad behavior.b. He may be influenced by his environment, but not ultimately controlled by it.c. We have an immediate awareness of our moral natures, that we freely make moral choices.d. It seems to make sense to praise and reward good behavior. If we're not responsible for our choices neither blame nor praise make any sense.e. If we are not free agents, then we are determined and therefore not responsible for our behavior, either good or bad. B.F. Skinner was right; we've got to bite the bullet and realize that we're "beyond freedom and dignity."2. Crime is not pathological, deserving rehabilitation, but moral, deserving punishment.a. The goal of justice is penal, not remedial, moral, not therapeutic.b. Two purposes of capital punishment:1) Justice demands punishment of the guilty. 2) Goodness demands protecting the innocent in society.a) "Capital punishment is to the whole society what self-defense is to the individual." The Ethics of Life and Death J.P. Moreland, p. 115. b) Dennis Prager: "We have a war going on here between murderers and society, but only one side is allowed to kill."3. The punishment should fit the crime (lex talionis).4. Capital punishment fits capital crimes (crimes that involve the loss of life).C. Objections to retributionism1. Arguments that prove too much.a. Many arguments against capital punishment prove too much because they apply with equal force against any punishment at all.b. "Capital punishment is applied unfairly."1) Even if this were true, the injustice here applies to those that got away, not to those that got punished. It's never unjust to punish a guilty man if the punishment itself fits the crime (lex talionis). The injustice is remedied by applying it more often, not less.2) Better unequal justice than no justice at all.3) If one man is paid for a job (he gets what he deserves) and another isn't, how do you rectify the inequity? You don't take away what the first man deserves, withholding his pay because the second man didn't get paid. That would double the injustice.c. "Innocent people get condemned."1) This is a criticism of any system of justice, not a particular type of punishment. Life is flawed, not capital punishment.2) Why must we accept a philosophy that says it's better for 100 guilty people to go free than for one innocent person to be condemned?3) Guilty people repeat crimes that injure and even kill other innocent people.4) "But death can't be undone." No punishment can be undone.5) Our attempts at improving justice here must be at the level of the process of adjudication making any determination of guilt more trustworthy.2. Other objections:a. "How can you be for capital punishment but against abortion" (the "seamless garment" argument)?1) The term "Pro-life" is actually a misnomer. Our case is not for every one's life or every form of life. Pro-lifer's are against the unjust taking of innocent human life, particularly the life of the unborn child.2) The right to life is not an absolute; it can be forfeited. This moral right is only prima facie; it stands only until challenged by some greater law, like justice or protecting the lives of the innocent.3) We also have a right to freedom, but it can be properly overridden with incarceration when certain conditions are met.4) An unborn child has committed no crime that forfeits its life.b. "Capital punishment is cruel and unusual."1) It's not cruel and unusual, but rather the exact punishment that fits the crime.2) This is an appeal to the language of the Bill of Rights, but the ones who wrote those words believed in capital punishment. If one wants to redefine the term for modern times, then he cannot argue from the Bill of Rights itself, because that has the old definition.c. "Capital punishment doesn't work; it doesn't deter crime."1) It always deters the offender. Dead people don't commit more crimes.2) If it lacks in deterrence, it might be because it is not widely exercised or not done speedily enough to be a threat.3) The principal goal of capital punishment is not deterrence, but punishment. In that way it works every time.d. "Why not a life sentence?"1) Confuses a life sentence with a death sentence. 2) It's unjust (doesn't fit the crime) because the criminal only loses liberty, not life.e. "This kind of death is undignified."1) In one sense, all death is undignified.2) Argues only against certain aggravated forms of capital punishment and not capital punishment itself.3) In the final analysis, the question is not the dignity of death, but its equity or justice.f. "There's no opportunity of to reform the criminal." Justice is the goal of punishment, not reform.g. "Capital punishment violates human dignity."1) It is specifically because of man's value and dignity that we punish his moral wrongdoing. We don't punish animals for stealing or killing (we don't punish them, we remove them for our safety).2) We hold men morally responsible because of dignity.3) "It is based on the assumption that normal adult beings are rational and moral beings who knew better, who could have done otherwise, but yet who chose to do evil anyway, and who therefore deserve to be punished." JPM p. 1184) Arguably it is undignified to force rehabilitation on free moral agents who don't want it.h. Roman Catholic objections1) The Catholic position against capital punishment is somewhat ironic given their position on purgatory, in which even when God forgives a sinner, still he must suffer for his own sins. 2) What of the practice of penance?3rd, Jews are still God's chosen people. And most under His wrath. Wrong yet again. God's wrath is equally against those who have rejected Christ's work on the cross.Lastly, I would say that there is no Scripture that implies that anyone who worships with Roman Catholics cannot possibly be led, or fed, by the Holy Spirit. I guess if I worship with Mormons then I can be led, or fed by the Holy Spirit as well. What's the difference, both weaken the Savior by adding works to salvation and changing His deity? The Mormon's change it by claiming that Christ is a created being while the Catholic Church does so by making Mary a deity.

Neil, thank you for posting this thread. It has given us a chance to wrestle through our own convictions – and ask why we believe the way we do. An incredible memory returned to me – out of this whole thread, and I want to share it: For years I was a Christian who thought I was saved because I had asked Jesus into my heart. But really I was just another pleaser, and religious conformists, and very critical. I joined in on that religious parade you spoke of. I had a poor sense of worth, and, so I it felt good to put down other religious persuasions. (in those days we Baptists thought we were the best) Then several years later, I was truly born from above, and given new life in Christ. I saw everything through different eyes. It was like suddenly seeing color for the first time.I will never forget one day sitting alone in a Catholic Church. In front of me was a life size, true to color crucifix. Suddenly it became almost real. There was my beloved Savior dying for me. I wept and wept. It was a very holy time, there, alone with God. I don’t think I could have experienced that depth of worship if it wasn’t for a supernatural work of the indwelling Spirit. For years I had been told that the crucifix was evil, and I know that ingrained mindsets don’t typically change. (apart from a miracle) I now believe that God can make dead symbols, rituals, and pictures, liturgies etc come alive with Spiritual reality – but only those who can see, will see. The symbols, of course are not the real thing, but when you've experienced the real, then the symbol has so much more meaning. It's like looking at a photo, when you know the real thing that it represents. All that has nothing to do with "lectio divina"Diane

Annie.I thank the people that have made me aware about the new age teaching and its practices that are slowly creeping into protestant congregations. Sadly I can now see the same thing happening in one of the largest Finnish congregations here in Australia, all because they've taken onboard teachings that are at best very suspect and at worst totally against the Word.Neil.He is risen indeed. Why then use an alternative way? Believe on Him, not a practice.As for going through a terrible time, we all do that at one time or another. Mine has been going on for some 18 months. You know what, there is a purpose behind this "madness". Personally, I hate it, but then again, I've been all sufficient but it's all crumbling. May the Lord have mercy on me. Not a lot of help here, but it pains me to see people using a fake when the real deal is available. It feels just like the snake in the Jungle Book when it sings "Trust in me", and the purpose behind that trust is totally false.With Blessingsjouko

I would not like to feel the spiritual conflict of going to a place where another spiritual system was in control,This is a legitimate concern. Yet, to be honest, if I applied this, there would no church that I could go, for everywhere there is a pervasive spirit of worldliness, and other stuff - often going way up into the higher powers that be. And even if it started good, religous organizations have a tendency to drift. Even my home is ruled by worldly philosophies , and I can do nothing about that. There are forces beyond my control. Our very world is fallen and under a curse, and really there is no ideal place free from the stain of sin. That is why we must learn to separate ourselves within our own hearts, and never give our hearts to any man - even a good one. We must have good personal boundaries and not allow anyone in that "for-God-only" space. Then, anywhere we go, no matter who is there, we can worship God. I thank God that he can lead me out of a corrupt religous system if he chooses. He has done that. But then also he lead me to serve as Music Minister in another place that is far from ideal. I could add a lot more about what God is teaching me through that, but that is another topic.

Dorcas, thanks, and a short answer to your question, yes. I do hope you believe me that I'm not after any pity etc. Neil begun with saying that his trial is coming along and he needed to be closer to the Lord. He has got the right attitude in time of trials, but it should also be like that in other times. Trials are there to make us stronger but that won't happen until that good old self takes a beating. Catherine Marshall wrote in one of her books about a retreat where the participants decided that they wanted to forget self and be more Christ like. Well, the Lord obliged and pain followed but o what a relief when you're not in "charge" anymore. The Lord has been gentle with me although circumstances have changed drastically over this time of 18 months. You are a good bunch of people, diverse in thought and doings. Finally to Neil, may the Lord be with you in anything you decide to do.Blessingsjouko