I don't know if I should actually post this thread yet or not. Its been tearing at me for some time, and I don't think this particular topic is fully divulged in my thinking or my patience.Basically what I want to say is the header: I am not special. Every time I ask a teacher whether or not I'm special, I will almost unanimously get yes. The few who don't state so qualify it with comparison to an overwhelming topical aptitude. If I were to ask my family if I were special, they would undoubtedly say yes. And if I were to ask many of my friends, the bulk would also disagree with me. So then why don't I believe I'm special? Simple. Because I'm not.I am not unique. There is no talent within me that I would ever suggest is greater than even a quantity of "gifted" individuals throughout the course of history. I am not entirely inept in any given field I've found, either. My level of intelligence is comparative to the vast quantity of individuals I've met (this is an entirely different (but related) topic.) Being 21, my knowledge base is not incredibly pronounced. I am neither overly athletic or athletically incapable.I am not spiritually magnificent or incredible. I am not a "remnant." I am a member of God's house. There is nothing within my experience that I have not seen another individual experience in a similar degree. I have met ten-year-olds with more spiritual maturity than I possess. I have never dealt with the occult personally, nor (to my knowledge) any of its derivatives.There is nothing about me that makes me stand above creation.Why then, should I treat myself as if I am? Why should I look at the world and say I am so different? What makes me special? Why should I believe such things?Don't get me wrong. God makes it pretty clear He loves us. He also loves us unilaterally. This is not the point I'm trying to make. Yes, it really does appear that I'm special if you compare me to a mushroom. That applies even if you were to compare me to a dog, a dolphin, or a duck-billed platypus. But why should I look at my next-door, unsaved neighbor and say to myself, "I am special?" Does God love him less? Did God give me more talents? WHY AM I SPECIAL?To the crux of the matter, this is a humanist argument. Its right there in Manifesto II. Part of the evolutionary theory. Each individual is special. Pets are people, too.I wish I could say this is a warning. Maybe it is. I have managed to convince a godly friend of this - although it was a fight. He'll probably never call me special again. In fact, I think he even agrees with me. One person I would consider spiritually more mature than myself. Maybe I could convince one of you, tonight. This is a multifaceted argument, and at least 3 solid points permeate this post. Before you reply with, "You really are special, and..." try to find all three of them. Read over them and consider them. Then, if you think I'm a crackpot, feel free to tell me I'm special because I'm a lunatic.(*Note: This post was written with the express intent of triggering reactions - although not necessarily on the keyboard. Grammatical mistakes mostly intentional.*)I really do want answers - although an answer doesn't necessarily have to be a contradiction. This is a simple argument to dismiss and I would appreciate your time and effort.
I am not special.
Pets aren't people too ? :-o Ha, only playing. I'm an animal saver, what can you expect out of a nut that takes more in then she can afford and has a wild bird hospital in the bathroom. Oh and I save bugs too. Haaa.You'd have to define "special" I think.Pride Stinks, if that's where you're going here, but I feel each person created is special.I don't feel I'm special, for as many reasons as you don't feel you are .... but yet, I see everyone else as 'special' because I feel the Love that God feels for them. I don't "possess" that love for all, as He does, but when I do feel it, I understand how He feels about you or others and feel to Him, you are special.I believe all are, Saved and unsaved.But the saved are the jewels in His crown.We're to see others as better than ourselves, so I think, I half agree with you completely :-D .If we see everyone on earth as special, but not ourselves, wouldn't that be O.K. ?My daughter is special to me and I tell her she is, but she also knows that I believe, my neighbor's daughter is special too, and everyone's daughter is, and if my daughter got jealous because I thought all daughters are special, then she wouldn't be understanding the Love of God... luckily, she understands me when I let her know she's special.As long as we don't make anyone feel they are "Special-ER" than anyone else. That's where you'd need to define special again though ... 'cause your wife may be specialer to you than other ladies, in a sense.I dunno, I reckon I'll meet ya half way on it.You're special and I'm not and I'd prefer to keep it that way ... until God Himself shows me otherwise.His Love to you.Annie
I am really fired up about this subject, because I've been exploring it myself for a long time. I would like to share some things which I have come to believe are true and which have made me realize, I am really special.You see, if you read in your Bible, you find that God chose the nation of Israel to be the nation out of which all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Genesis 18:17-18 says, "And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing tht Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by him?" That's pretty special, wouldn't you say? Why did God choose Abraham and the nation which would come from his loins? Were they special? I don't have the time right now to look up all the scripture to support my 'theory' here, but do the research yourself. God chose Abraham and the nation of Israel because they weren't special. He said they were the least of all nations. God likes working in this way because he gets lots of glory. Another thing which I have come to believe is true, is this: God loves everyone, but God does have favorites. He will bless whom he will bless, and he will curse whom he will curse. If God has chosen you, then that makes you special, because God doesn't choose everyone. He chooses some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. And it's His perogative. He's the creator, he can do what he wants to with his creation. So, if God has brought you into his family, you are special, not because of anything you've done, but because God Almighty has picked you out of the crowd. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that overwhelming love and grace? You've been chosen by God to be a vessel of honor! Now, go forth and glorify God. Love, Dian.
Dian,He will bless whom he will bless, and he will curse whom he will curse.Haven't we moved on to 'whoseover will may come'? And(NKJV) Revelation 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Dorcas, moved on from where? Wasn't the lamb that was slain, slain from the foundation of the world? What have we moved from? Love, Dian.
Dian, I'm a little sensitive about the whole topic of cursing and the suggestion that God is still in the business of cursing whom He will curse, upsets me. Yes, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but the Father still had put into operation various curses, which, my understanding is, were abolished when the cross actually came to pass in the fulness of time.I understand there is power in words, and blessing and cursing are still a reality, but, my understanding is also that God has bound Himself to His word, to bless those who accept Christ and keep His word, build their house on His word, live by his word, speak out His word, testify to the truth of His word and allow themselves generally to be living epistles to the world.We may be speaking at cross-purposes here and I'm open to be corrected but, that's what I had in mind - that since Christ, 'whosoever' may opt out of the curses to which they were subject because of sin, and now, God has commanded the blessing to all who believe. Even of old, God did not 'curse' indiscriminately, but, until the greater revelation of His heart, it was hard to understand the context in which He 'cursed' From what you said, I took it you are saying God still curses whom He will curse, in an active way. Whereas my understanding is, all the cursing has been done, and is being outworked on those who finally, still do not believe.
GrannieAnnie,It is interesting that you should choose to view the rest of the people of this world as special, but discount yourself. I don't really have the time to dig in and do the research right now, but I have been told many a time by people that a negative pride is still pride.I have no hard time defining special to me. There are a few people in this world who are quite special to me, and I doubt anything will ever change that. If my wife (hypothetically speaking) were not more special to me than another woman, then there would be the makings of adultery.But am I more special to God? Saul was special to God. He prophecied with the prophets. He was an excellent leader and a solid Israelite. But he made choices that were not akin to God's desires because they seemed more merciful or better. He didn't consider the ramifications of some of his actions two and three generations down the road before deciding to go against God's will. And so he was replaced by a young man no more special than he. This man chose to act more steadily upon God's will. He lost it a few times and did several things in direct discord with established acceptable practice according to the Mosaic covenant. But he listened and made more of those hard (and mostly unfathomable) choices (specifically for his country). Really, does what happened through him make him more special in God's eyes, or does it show God allowing gratitude?I guess this means to me that special is a sort of particular elevation. Am I to be elevated by thinking myself "special?" And if everyone is so elevated, doesn't that make it worthless?Jesus was special. I don't think Elijah was special. I don't even think Moses to be more special. They're heald in high regard because of an example they set, but that does not make them "special" per se.Dian,I don't know if what I just typed would help clarify my stance on this for you. And I won't ever say that that impress to you is not correct. However from pretty much the same exact line of thinking that derives that for you, I get the exact opposite response. Abraham chose to listen and do things according to God's statements. I don't think his mediocraty had anything to do with it, really. You'll notice along the way he payed tribute to other godly men. Once again, I don't know if God's proposition of him really made him special. But he did as God asked, and God held to his promise.For that same token, was Paul special or did he merely possess the skills and desires necessary for God to impact him so readily? God made him to be useful, and rallied him to that cause. But He also made Peter, Jeremiah, and me. I doubt that he would ignore me any more than any of these figures. I also doubt that he would ignore my neighbor so.dorcas,I doubt I'll ever come to the conclusion that the Father started acting differently after the cross. He isn't a teddy bear to me now any more than He was to Moses (whom he held right until the time a major promise was to be filled, and then denied this son its end.) I doubt He would tell Israel that blessings and curses would be passed through generations and not hold true any more than He would ignore that same thing in us. And I know that curses are effective.If God can curse David and his whole family, the man who's line He would bring His Son (and that supposed change) through, why should I consider myself exempt?
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:In Christ,GaryE
PTywama3 saidI doubt I'll ever come to the conclusion that the Father started acting differently after the cross. He isn't a teddy bear to me now any more than He was to Moses (whom he held right until the time a major promise was to be filled, and then denied this son its end.) I doubt He would tell Israel that blessings and curses would be passed through generations and not hold true any more than He would ignore that same thing in us. And I know that curses are effective.If God can curse David and his whole family, the man who's line He would bring His Son (and that supposed change) through, why should I consider myself exempt?Thank you for giving me a question to chew on....Your first sentence to me holds two ideas together, which need to be separated. 'I doubt I'll ever come to the conclusion that the Father started acting differently after the cross.'The first 'idea' is 'the Father'. I agree with you that the Father is the same eternal I AM.What changed in time was that the Word - His Son - became Flesh and dwelt among us.Picking up my mention of 'the cross', (the second 'idea') there is a world of difference in the relationship between God and man before it and God and man after it. Here are a few scriptures.2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Hebrews 2:14, 15'.. that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Acts 21 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: Hebrews 109 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, [covenant] that he may establish the second [covenant].10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
He [the Father] isn't a teddy bear to me now any more than He was to Moses Perhaps I should check up what you meant by 'teddy bear'..... but in the meantime, I will say the Father is not a pushover, nevertheless, He was well-pleased with the work of His beloved Son, who was obedient. (Mark 9:7, Matt 3:17,) That's the deal - obedience. After that, we all have the same access to the Father, through grace. A great deal has changed through the abolition of the Old Covenant and Pentecost, the beginning of the day of grace, through faith.John 5 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Romans 5:1, 2Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Thank you for bearing with me. I wanted to show you why I believe what I do. Do you see how I connect the cross with comfort in God? And why I'm not sure what you mean that the Father is not a 'teddy bear' and would as readily curse NOW as He has in the past? Jesus Christ was made a curse and the curse for us, as Gery showed from the scripture.
Hi PTywama3,What does your capabilities have to do if you are faithful to God, following Him and such?What does how other people see you, thinking your unique or not in their opinion... Does that have any to do with you and God?No matter how good you are, how many talents you have or how special various people will 'brand you'.. its worth nothing if God sees this different.
GaryE wrote:Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:Jesus did redeem us from the curse of the law... but He hasn't yet redeemed us from the curse of the fall.. ie. Child birth pain and Thorns and thistles
Hi PreachParslyJesus did redeem us from the curse of the law... but He hasn't yet redeemed us from the curse of the fall.. ie. Child birth pain and Thorns and thistles I don't quite know how to refute this, but I don't agree we are in the same position as Adam was. Something has changed.Spitfire saidAnother thing which I have come to believe is true, is this: God loves everyone, but God does have favorites. He will bless whom he will bless, and he will curse whom he will curse.Do you believe this?
by PTywama3It is interesting that you should choose to view the rest of the people of this world as special, but discount yourself. I don't really have the time to dig in and do the research right now, but I have been told many a time by people that a negative pride is still pride.I don't know about "research", nor your sources for your first post ... it all sounded rather secular to me to begin with, but I figured, "Aw, why not, it's late, this thread looks like fun, why not post."The verse that I quoted in my first post was the one that came to mind ... 'to think of others as better than yourself.'So what would the research, say about that mind set ?To me, the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, and maybe I just got thrown by the source or resources being used here or something.I thought, to declare that "I'm not special, and no one else is neither" sounded rather cold, in that, The Creator created us out of LOVE, the same way children are desired by a couple.Aw, I'll just let someone else figure it out,,, I think this one's over my head :-D. :-?
Dear Brethren,Am I special because I am nothing special or is it because I really am special?"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; you who then were not a people, but now the people of God, those not pitied then, but now pitied" (1 Peter 2:10)In His love,Gery
Do you believe this?Yes.Perhaps I should clarify myself (if that's possible).I do not believe that anyone desires God apart from God drawing them unto himself. My life is living proof. Chances are, anyone who is on this website and searching for answers is here because God is drawing them. Otherwise, they would have no desire to know God. To me, if God isn't drawing a person, that, in itself, is a curse. I believe in divine election and predestination and believing this has completely transformed my walk with God. I'll tell you why.I was supposedly 'saved' when I was 10 years old. I can't remember a time in my life when I wasn't conscious of God. I've always had a love for God, but I never really followed Christ. In my early adulthood, I supposedly got the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. I still lived very sinfully. Finally, when I was 36 years old, I left my husband for another man. I was so frustrated with trying to be a 'good christian'. I had no power to do right. I hated myself. I really wanted to give God my all, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. My life spiraled down into a huge mess. Finally, slowly, I began to seek God humbly. Over the course of about 4 years, I finally came to God. I'm not sure exactly when I finally surrendered, but I'm sure it has happened now.Looking back, I see that I could not come to God on my own. He drew me. He loved me before I was ever born. He chose me to be his daughter and He finally brought it to fullness. All those years I tried to come to God with some merit of my own were futile. He had to wear me out. Then, when I was spent, he showed me his great love and I see that he loved me before I was ever born. I saw that, really, I've been coming to Christ since before I was born, not because I had some desirable quality, because I wasn't even born yet, but because God, himself, chose me. Now, I follow him because I love him and I love him because he first loved me. There isn't the struggle anymore. Everyday I get up and I want to follow Christ, because I realize the awesome priviledge it is to be chosen.Do I feel special? You better believe I do. I feel about as special as Joan of Arc and I can't wait to die for him if that's what's in store for me. I could never have mustered this on my own. God has revealed himself to me in a way that has eternally changed me and I am eternally grateful. Sincerely, Dian.
HA ! that subtitle I put on here is from an old comedy, so it's meant to be funny. In the movie, the guy kept coming back in the room, in and out repeatedly, saying that.Anyhow. I think, after reading Nee, Hudson Taylor, oh my, the list is long on this topic, there's one thing we're gonna HAVE TO face, that if we're out to discuss PRIDE (gosh, I wanted to put that in red font, but don't know how), that as 'they' said, like Hudson Taylor, at the END of his own incredible life ... that we ALL are guilty and WILL BE because of what is called SELF, until the Lord gets us to our glorified state or we die first.FLESH = SELF = PRIDE.So I think, Any discussion on "pride", should be approached with fear and trembling, because it was Satan's fall, and the root of all sin, but boiled down, it is just SELF, and anything that does not originate from GOD and comes from "self", (as in words, thoughts, actions, all of it) is pride, which is "independence from God". Acting, thinking "autonomously".So if this is the case, that this thread is going at "Pride", then if we're not careful, the whole thing may just be the posting of our own, from the first post to the last and as Hudson Taylor said, something to the affect that "even my greatest prayer, my best sermon, etc. etc. I see the taint of "flesh""Flesh is self is pride, it is Cain's sin, to act according to our own way or thinking, apart from HIM.So the greatest reply I could ever give in my lifetime to a post, will still have that piece of Flesh in it, if the likes of Hudson Taylor and many other great old guys have said that of themselves. And Paul in Phil 3.Whenever I see a topic on Pride, or posters accusing others of Pride, from what I've read of the 'old guys', that is Pride.Ho-hum. I just feel, it's best to be careful on this, and especially not to use secular sources on such an important (from God's point of view) topic. With my tinge of flesh here also, till He returns. Phil 3:9-14Peace.Annie
dorcas wrote:Hi PreachParsly
Refute it? You can't refute it (I hope this doesn't come off rude) unless you can find a woman that has a natural birth and has no pain or the world is rid of thorns and thistles. You won't be completely redeemed from the curse of the fall untill you get a glorfied body. What do you mean that we are not in the same position as Adam? In some ways we are (physical death, pain and everything else that was caused by sin).Jesus did redeem us from the curse of the law... but He hasn't yet redeemed us from the curse of the fall.. ie. Child birth pain and Thorns and thistles I don't quite know how to refute this, but I don't agree we are in the same position as Adam was. Something has changed.
As I read your post I notice you use the personal pronoun "I" often. Let me say something, I do not think I am all that special either. In fact when I really stop to think about it, I am not. All the good I have has come directly from the LORD of all Creation. I have contributed noting except dependance on Him, or a helplessness. If you look at me, I am insignificant, short, limited skills, getting old, running out of gas...BUT I have Jesus and that makes me special in His eyes and that is all I need. And then I follow that with obedience. Seems to me you are focusing too much on yourself. Look around and see if you can find someone who is in worse shape then you and go see what you can do to help them. And make this a lifestyle. Try it and then come back and tell us what happened! ginnyrose
Ginnyrose, you sure do speak well for someone in 'our' shape. :-) I really related to the self-description you gave and glad I can get old (I am or feel old) and run out of gas around folks like you. We all are "the gathering of the insignificant", and I like how you placed it all.Thank you !
GrannieAnnie,Thank you for taking the time to think over and respond to my post. To answer specifically why I would say it isn't quite God's intentions for us to view others as more important (or, in my relative definition, elevated above i.e. "special") comes from a somewhat redundant source.In the ten commandments, God lays down that we should not covet what is our neighbors. Lev. 19:18 says pretty specifically "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD."When the lawyer asks Jesus what the greatest commandment is in Matthew 22, he responds with (22:37) "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."To love my neighbor more seems to me to be in contradiction with this principle. I don't believe its secular at all. And the principle behind each and every little child being quite special is very much a humanist argument - which is pretty much the epitome of secularism. I'm not joking.FIFTH: The preciousness and dignity of the individual person is a central humanist value. Individuals should be encouraged to realize their own creative talents and desires. We reject all religious, ideological, or moral codes that denigrate the individual, suppress freedom, dull intellect, dehumanize personality. We believe in maximum individual autonomy consonant with social responsibility. Although science can account for the causes of behavior, the possibilities of individual freedom of choice exist in human life and should be increased....[Eleventh]Although we believe in cultural diversity and encourage racial and ethnic pride, we reject separations which promote alienation and set people and groups against each other; we envision an integrated community where people have a maximum opportunity for free and voluntary association.Nutshell, Humanist Manifesto II. It is not stated as well as in the Humanist Manifesto, but the ideology is still similar. I think a key phrase is "we believe in maximum human autonomy..." A common philosophy has been (and is being taught at the university level) that each individual is separate and controls their own reality (and is hence their own "god.") This completely ignores some major logical points, but aside from that is a very influential and quite widely spread philosophy. From that we get the point that I am a very important person in the universe. In fact, I am like the biggest influence in the universe. If you don't believe that, I'm special. Everyone can agree to that and little kids like it a whole lot. - The humanist influence on western educational systems is incredibly pronounced. It has been ingrained in us for generations. The Humanist Manifesto was produced in 1933, but the effects of it across the educational system can be linked back much farther... Darwin is a stellar example. Tylor's theory on the evolution of religion in humanity is another. I'm pretty sure that's not the technical term for it, but history buffs might know what I'm talking about.The emphasis on this argument isn't quite what it seems to be. I am not special. Why do I believe it? Well, tradition. I like to ignore tradition, it got me thinking. Logic - if everyone is special, than no one is special. Unilateral elevation is more like inflation than progression. Particular elevation (whether positive or negative) would suggest a meaningful specialness. If I am not special, but everyone else is, then in fact, I am indeed the only special one. See, I went the other way, and being worth less makes me more unique, different, and in the end, special. This is not a secular argument, but a logical one.I will not deny perception. The humanist viewpoint of perception has some validity. It recognizes that perception is a key part of the human psyche, but it fails to bridge the gap between perception and truth. Truth is unilateral - perceived truth may not be. I'm attempting to acknowledge the former.There are definite passages in the bible that show God's immense love for us. Jer. 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Another example quoted all the time is Psalm 139. Yet at the same time, God didn't tell me He called my name before I was conceived to be a prophet to the nations. Nor am I the chief musician of David.Don't get me wrong - my argument is not that I am worthless... far from it. But there is a limit to my perception of my viability.And on to Ginnyrose,I recently spent two months in Africa, for which I spent all of my money as well as other people's (in preparation for and supporting the local Indian (from India) missionaries,) gave away my bibles (which disgruntled me greatly,) and spent a lot of time being incredibly uncomfortable. I would hazard to say that maybe a handful of the individuals I came in contact with could be considered in similar or better shape than me - in terms of fiscal and educational standings (let alone oppourtunities.) This is when a very large part of this concept was lodged in my mind. I found out how much God cares for these people: the Muslims who profess to love me and yet thier doctrine demands my death, and the Christians who don't have a pastor trained at all in the historical background of the church or its various theologies. The pronoun "I" was more readily used to emphasize the fact that this is a practical, personally important, and very much self-borne (not born) concept. Believe me when I say that my walk is not limited to a keyboard.
Hia PTywama3,I'm familiar with the manifesto, but what has that to do with where 'we' derive our Truth from ?There is, as you say, a grain a truth in almost all things, but we don't negate a Biblical truth on the basis that it is found in 'secular' or humanist reasoning.When the Word of God tells us to "esteem others as 'better' than ourselves", what is it saying ?Thanks for your answer friend.Annie
Annie,This has become quite the conversation. :)Umm... lessee. I Can't get around Jesus's words. To me the gospel holds that much more weight.This particular passage seems to have a lot to do with humility. The passage goes on to show Christ doing this very thing, but not considering Himself lower than God. I am lower than God, but Christ yet esteemed others more. I am not a biblical scholar, this is merely an opinion - and the Greek is quite a bit over my head.I think it is possible to set others before me and yet maintain a righteous belief that I hold value in the sight of God. This isn't necessarily setting others above me (and hopefully not me above others). I don't think I'm entirely misinterpreting it, either.
Just edgewise, but ....Perhaps it could be put this way. You are special, now get over it. :-? You are not special and that will have to go as well...In other words, and have been much in reading Oswald Chambers so pardon the runoff, we are a bundle of contradictions, the feelings come and go, we are both at the same time, a paradox.Chosen, favored, yet mere worms, of unclean lips. Of our selves we can do no good thing. Used to think that was a contradiction, "apart from Me you can do nothing"... Same there. Surely we can do plenty of good and accomplish many things... in this life, but what of eternity?One of the dangers of present-day teaching is that it makes us turn our eyes off Jesus Christ on to ourselves, off the Source of our salvation on to salvation itself. The effect of that is a morbid, hypersensitive life, totally unlike our Lord’s life, it has not the passion of abandon that characterised Him. The New Testament never allows for a moment the idea that continually crops up in modern spiritual teaching—“I have to remember that I am a specimen of what God can do.” That is inspired by the devil, never by the Spirit of God. We are not here to be specimens of what God can do, but to have our life so hid with Christ in God that our Lord’s words will be true of us, that men beholding our good works will glorify our Father in heaven. There was no “show business” in the life of the Son of God, and there is to be no “show business” in the life of the saint. Concentrate on God, let Him engineer circumstances as He will, and wherever He places you He is binding up the broken-hearted through you, setting at liberty the captives through you,† doing His mighty soul-saving work through you, as you keep rightly related to Him. Self-conscious service is killed, self-conscious devotion is gone, only one thing remains—“witnesses unto Me,” Jesus Christ first, second and third.“The Father abiding in Me doeth His works” (John 14:10 rv). Our Lord habitually submitted His will to His Father, that is, He engineered nothing but left room for God. The modern trend is dead against this submission; we do engineer, and engineer with all the sanctified ingenuity we have, and when God suddenly bursts in in an expected way, we are taken unawares. It is easier to engineer things than determinedly to submit all our powers to God. We say we must do all we can: Jesus says we must let God do all He can.“As the Father taught Me, I speak these things” (John 8:28 rv). The secret of our Lord’s holy speech was that He habitually submitted His intelligence to His Father. Whenever problems pressed on the human side, as they did in the temptation, our Lord had within Him self the Divine remembrance that every problem had been solved in counsel with His Father before He became Incarnate (cf. Revelation 13:8), and that therefore the one thing for Him was to do the will of His Father†††, and to do it in His Father’s way. Satan tried to hasten Him, tried to make Him face the problems as a Man and do God’s will in His own way: “The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing” (John 5:19 rv).Are we intellectually insubordinate, spiritually stiff-necked, dictating to God in pious phraseology what we intend to let Him make us, hunting through the Bible to back up our pet theories? Or have we learned the secret of submitting our intelligence and our reasoning to Jesus Christ’s word and will as He submitted His mind to His Father?The danger with us is that we will only submit our minds to New Testament teaching where the light of our experience shines. “If we walk in the light”—as our experience is in the light? No, “if we walk in the light as He is in the light . . .” We have to keep in the light that God is in, not in the rays of the light of our experience. There are phases of God’s truth that cannot be experienced, and as long as we stay in the narrow grooves of our experience we shall never become Godlike, but specialists of certain doctrines—Christian oddities. We have to be specialists in devotion to Jesus Christ and in nothing else. If we want to know Jesus Christ’s idea of a saint and to find out what holiness means, we must not only read pamphlets about sanctification, we must face ourselves with Jesus Christ, and as we do so He will make us face ourselves with God. “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” When once the truth lays hold of us that we have to be God-like, it is the death-blow for ever to attempting things in our own strength. The reason we do attempt things in our own strength is that we have never had the vision of what Jesus Christ wants us to be. We have to be God-like, not good men and women. There are any number of good men and women who are not Christians.The life of sanctification, of service and of sacrifice, is the threefold working out in our bodies of the life of Jesus until the supernatural life is the only life. These are truths that cannot be learned; they can only be habitually lived.Our Lord on How to ThinkChambers, O. The moral foundation of life : A series of talks on the ethical principles of the Christian life. It is edgewise, not sure if it address's the question adequately, if at all. Not special, no not special, beyond that and far below it. Look at the Lord, how He became nothing as to His own will and abandonment to the Father, and yet there is no one more worthy of...hmmm, seems it would be difficult to apply that word it's not even near the same category.Better quit at this point.
Hi Mike,Just one question. Did ya get a chance to read all the posts from the first one on ?I know you shur is busy bro.Love,Annie
Hi Ann,A fair assessment there, at the time no, only had read a handful but backtracked through it all. Had the same similar thought, better to get a definition and after seeking one out ...Short:spe•cial \\"spe-shel\\ adj 1 : uncommon, noteworthy 2 : particularly favored 3 : individual, unique 4 : extra, additional 5 : confined to or designed for a definite field of action, purpose, or occasion — special n Merriam-WebsterLong:specialspe.cial \\'spesh-*l\\ \\-(*-)le-\\ aj [ME, fr. OF or L; OF especial, fr. L specialis individual, particul]ar, fr. species species 1: distinguished by some unusual quality 2a: PECULIAR, UNIQUE 2b: of, relating to, or constituting a species : SPECIFIC 3: ADDITIONAL, EXTRA 4: designed for a particular purpose or occasion INDIVIDUAL, RESPECTIVE, CONCRETE mean of or belonging to one only. SPECIAL stresses having a quality, character, identity, or use of its own; ESPECIAL may add implications of preeminence or preference; SPECIFIC implies a quality or character distinguishing a kind or a species; PARTICULAR implies a distinguishing mark of an individual; INDIVIDUAL implies unequivocal reference to one of a class or group; RESPECTIVE implies reference to each one of several in the order named; CONCRETE suggests individuality and actuality of existence or experience - special n SYN syn SPECIAL, ESPECIAL, SPECIFIC, PARTICULAR,Ye old Websters of 1828:SpecialSPECIAL, n. A particular. [Not Used.]The phrase [not used] I believe is in the context of "rarely used". Tried to find a better clarification and couldn't come up with one, but it does seem from the usage of [little used] elsewhere that Noah Webster had in mind that it is "used" infrequently (in his day), for some background on him: http://www.bible-researcher.com/webster.htmlTo really make this whole word play even more ... interesting :-? There is a sense of taking "not used" to a full literal sense.Not used.Guess where I was going even last night with a tired brain is still similar;1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. A particular favorite, especially 8-) since the blunt reality is in scrapped knees from so much him that thinketh...The context being all that came before;1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.What things?Without going back over it all, the gist of it seems to be along the same lines of;Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. So in one sense it is to do away with the word altogether. Does God love you? Are you the apple of His eye? A man\\woman after His own heart?My FatherMore correctly,Our FatherJoh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Pretty all encompassing, but 'special'? ...In this context of questions raised it seems to be a very poor choice of 'word(s)'. The element of pride as was well mentioned (a whole other element) sneaks in.Surely we are not just mere curmudgeons in His sight, we have nothing of worth "of ourselves" in the sense that...Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Finding this more difficult to unravel than I thought...There was a post awhile back about whether we ought or not to take pleasure in doing something good for the Lord and that can be similar to this I think.What better sense of ... pure pleasure, than to have the sense of the Lords Presence, peace... it is well with my soul? What would any of us want to hear at this fleshly end than, "Well done good and faithful servant"?The problem with this particular word and the questions brought forth is in either wallowing in our unworthiness which is or ought to be evident enough (Woe is me I am undone, I am a man of unclean lips, depart from me) if we have come to a realization of the possibilities we are capable of, the short step back to the gutter that many of us came out of, where our whole thought life once lived... Or it is to give ourselves credit for something we never accomplished in the first place. Can we say "I am glad that I found the way out?" Or is it "Thank God He did it, all of it..." Not trying to open up that whole realm here, personally find that "predestination" is after the fact from our standpoint.Really it seems to be totally codified here:Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. We are not 'better than' anyone. It's as if this whole line of thought could be erased from our inner man as well as the opposite, that we are somehow completely worthless. Far be from it! If the 'mainspring' as Chambers is want to put it, has been changed the whole manner has been altered, gloriously altered. I would prefer "peculiar" any day of the week. We ought to be the strangest, 'weirdest' people on the face of the earth. Human containers of the Living God? How utterly preposterous! We don't 'flaunt' it, we would perhaps not even recognize it unless we continue in that constant navel gazing (not always a bad thing, it can bring oneself to a real sense of being tired with thinking about ones 'self'... ughhh)Maybe the short way of stating all this is;We are loved, beloved.We give back out what has been worked in, hopefully... and might I add 'unconsciously'?Remember "the joy of the Lord"?Do we have that?Despite it all, despite the conditions and certain circumstances, troubles and misunderstandings and a thousand other things that come our way each and everyday?Peculiar in being "quick" to forgive.Peculiar in "the love they have for each other"Peculiar in suffering all manners of insults and injuries perceived or otherwise.Peculiar in manner, at the very core of our being.That would be as close as I would want to come to 'special'. And it is very much why when we begin to fight amongst ourselves over much trivial things, snipping and bitting and so forth that the grievousness just takes hold, we ought not to be this way.Are we 'proud' of our salvation, in the sense of... it goes right back to the Pharisee no? Or are we heartbroken that those outside "don't get it", don't ponder the great realities of eternity, of their very soul, of the fast approaching death?Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
GrannieAnnie,LOL! Hey, one thing that does happen when we age is our sense of humor comes in handy because we have to use it a lot!! (BTW, did you notice the younger generation does not laugh as much as older folks?). On the other hand I am only 58 but to the youngsters on this board we ARE old enough to be their moms and therefore old...at least according to our children..:-)ginnyrose
ginnyrose :-) Yes, I've noticed that ("BTW") part.I thought it was only me ... but we were raised on "better cartoons" or something .... ho-ho-ha !The cartoons in this last so many decades have so much violence and all, and I still love the old cartoons. Ha !I don't watch TV anymore, though it's handy right here if something comes up, but we have some oldie cartoons on VHS. I don't think you and I live "that" far from eachother. Wanna come over and pop some in ? Ha !Yup, we're OLD alrighty, but age makes ya appreciate 'the JOY of the Lord IS our Strength'.God Bless you richly ginnyrose.Amen.Annie
Aw shucks Mike.I thought you'd at least comment on "Seeing others as Special" and not ourselves as being "special", as the verse I brought up twice, was what I was trying to say from page one. Yeeeeesh !Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better 5242 than themselves. G5242 huperechōFrom G5228 and G2192; to hold oneself above, that is, (figuratively) to excel; participle (as adjective, or neuter as noun) superior, superiority: - better, excellency, higher, pass, supreme.Excedes the english definition of "special" by quite a bit, doesn't it ?I give up PTywama3. I think I'm just too "OLD" for this sorta stuff.I'm gonna go plug in one of my cartoons.:-P Annie
I think its good to have a low and humble opinion about one's self...But as a believer in Christ to think you are not special is a folly...In Christ you are: A Son of GodA Friend and Disciple of Jesus ChristOne with Christ in spiritBought with a priceA member of Christ's BodyChosen and adopted by GodRedeemed and Forgivena Citizen of HeavenGod's TempleGod's WorkmanshipSalt and LightHolyAnd thats just the tip of the iceberg. In Christ my friend, you are special. http://www.ficm.org/whoiam.htmKnowing your identity is one thing, living it is another.
I guess this is what originally struck me...What comes to mind usually when you hear this word used in everyday conversation?Is it this equation?;Special= betterMore precisely ~ better than?If it's used to describe each other have we then setup a caste type system? A 'ranking' of sorts?And doesn't this then go against what we know from the Lord?For those who have been brought out of the darkness we are surely better off, but certainly not better than. Re-reading the original post here it appears that is where he was going with all this.Think this is important in how we view each other and view those who are without the Spirit of the living God. If we see the whole of God's reconciling the world unto Himself as a we\\them mindset isn't this the root problem of the Pharisees? The equivalent of legalism and a multitude of wrong motives for reaching the lost?In Christ you are: A Son of GodA Friend and Disciple of Jesus ChristOne with Christ in spiritBought with a priceA member of Christ's BodyChosen and adopted by GodRedeemed and Forgivena Citizen of HeavenGod's TempleGod's WorkmanshipSalt and LightHolyAll true absolutely. And just as it was mentioned, "esteem others as 'better' than ourselves",See now that in the midst of writing this out that a better response had come in from David and I see where he is going with all this...Perhaps the preferred word is "Blessed" Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.