As I promised in my previous post "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil" here is a look at something that comes out of the TRINITY debate:Why do Christians pray and ask Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and/or the Father? In order to justify this, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit must not only be God, but must also be equal or one and the same. The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are God, not many Christians will argue this, even though some do. I believe that they are. Many teach that the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are co-equal. My NASB study Bible does. I believe that this is incorrect. There is enough Biblical evidence to prove that the Father is not co-equal to the Son. I have written enough about this on my website that I will not repeat myself here. The great difficulty that the TRINITY debate has brought to the Church of Jesus Christ is division. As people in my present church and in previous churches have pointed out, sometimes full of exasperation: this has been debated for years, who are you to argue? Good point, or maybe not. Who are we? Are we as mankind with our finite minds able to understand God? Can we with certainty prove one way or the other? We must be certain if we can declare that it is quite alright to pray and ask Jesus or the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus Himself told us NOT too. Frankly it boggles my mind how man can make declarations about the Godhead that are contrary to Scripture. If there are passages that cast even a shadow of doubt on other passages, maybe it would be advisable to just obey what Jesus told us to do, rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other.In John 16, Jesus teaches His disciples about prayer for when He has left them “in that day,” that is, after He will have ascended to be with the Father. This is after He has already taught them the Lord’s Prayer on an earlier occasion. When He taught them the Lord’s Prayer he used verbs of which the mood is imperative. This means: you must say, or you must pray. Most of us know that we address the Father in the Lord’s Prayer. In John 16:23 Jesus tells His disciples and I think us too, that “in that day,” when He is with the Father, to ask Him nothing or no question. He tells them - and us - to ask the Father IN MY NAME; He repeats this in verse 24, and again in verse 26. Paul, in Ephesians 1:15-17 asks that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will give the (a) Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him to the Ephesian Christians. This is a reference to Isaiah 11:1,2. Nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to, or given permission to, or even asked to pray to the Holy Spirit. Not even to worship Him. We are however certainly told to ask the Father in Jesus’ name, even for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13). Why do so many of us not do this; why do we disobey?..."fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith"...(Hebrews 12:2a)I can quote a number of Scriptures where we are told to obey all that Jesus taught and commanded us. The Bible tells us that if we don’t, we sin.If we as the Church could only agree on this point alone, wouldn’t it do something to improve the unity of the Body?Is asking Jesus for anything sin? You answer it for yourself, I already have.In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect as one (John 17:23)The Father's Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net
Is asking Jesus for anything Sin?
My question for you is. How can something be the same, but not co-equal? Explain this please.
Hia Hans,The Father exalted Jesus and gave Him a name above every other name. Is it possible that God the Father gave Jesus His own name, Eternal Father?No where in God's Word, is Jesus ever called The Father. Quite the contrary.The only verse that's used, that I mentioned on the other thread is Is.9:6, but as I said there, In the Hebrew, that is more properly translated, "Father of Eternity".In the Hebrew, there's an "of" between there, to put it simpley.To add some language notes here...The everlasting Father "The Father of the everlasting age" - Or אבי עד Abi ad, the Father of eternity. {Clarke}Literally, it is the Father of eternity, עד אבי 'ĕby ‛ad. {Barnes}The correct pronunciation in Hebrew is the Father of eternity in Hebrew =Abi-Ad . Among the ancient Hebrews the term " Father of ", was always used to indicate he who possessed the thing that followed. God the Father is called the Father of Spirits (Heb.12:9) and the Father of lights James.1:17 this again does not mean a literal begetting of light nor Spirits. It shows Gods ownership and being the source of life as the Father of Spirits. The Father of lights is a term interpreted in Judaism to mean he is the source of the moon, the sun and stars. For example in the Hebrew understanding the "Father of" strength -means strong; the ‘Father of" knowledge -means intelligent, the ‘Father of" peace -means peaceful, the "Father of" glory -means glorious. So the Son is called the Father of eternity meaning he is eternal, he is the source of eternity. This does not indicate he is the person who is the Father, Prince of Peace is a term never used of the Father, since it is a Son who is a prince.The Septuagint version is, "the Father of the world to come" πατηρ του αιωνος μελλοντοςJust a few verses to go along with this ...Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto 'MY' Father, and 'your' Father; AND TO 'MY' GOD, and 'your' God.Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before 'My' Father, and before his angels. Rev3:21" to him who overcomes I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with 'My' Father on his throne." In His Love.AnnieEdited myself: I had to fix this in places. We only differ on the one quote I placed above and the equality issue.Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask 'of the Father' in my name, 'He' may give it you.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to overload here.YeshuaIsMyGd's question should be answered first.It is a very good question and would you say Hans, that the same vs., Is. 9:6 shows equality at the same time ?Thanks for your patience.Annie
Is asking Jesus for anything sin? You answer it for yourself, I already have.Though your intent is nothing short of well meaning Hans, this seems to be just as dangerous as you proposed with... "rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other."Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:14 - If ye shall ask me anything in my name (ean ti aitēsēte me en tōi onomati mou). Condition of third class with ean and first aorist active subjunctive of aiteō. The use of me (me) here is supported by Aleph B 33 Vulgate Syriac Peshitta. Just this phrase does not occur elsewhere in John and seems awkward, but see Joh_16:23. If it is genuine, as seems likely, here is direct prayer to Jesus taught as we see it practiced by Stephen in Act_7:59; and in Rev_22:20.Robertson's Word Pictures~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~in my name, either calling upon it, he being equally the object of prayer with the Father, or making mention of it, pleading the merits of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; whatever was according to the will of God, was for his glory, and their real good, he would do it for them, as well when absent from them, as present with them.John Gill~~~~~~~~~Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. There is a point where this stretches credulity brother, it is not a sin to ask Jesus for anything. If you read carefully what you have stated here, there is an emphasis on praying and asking and you are proposing we should do neither to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit...We must be certain if we can declare that it is quite alright to pray and ask Jesus or the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus Himself told us NOT too. Frankly it boggles my mind how man can make declarations about the Godhead that are contrary to Scripture. If there are passages that cast even a shadow of doubt on other passages, maybe it would be advisable to just obey what Jesus told us to do, rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other.The Lord most certainly told us to ask. This is not a matter of building up a 'doctrine', think about the last part of your quote there, about disregarding the other.Something else to consider here, relating to Acts 7:59; 7:59 - Calling upon Godhe word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient mss. or versions. It should have been rendered, “They stoned Stephen, invoking, or calling upon, and saying, Lord Jesus,” etc. That is, he was engaged “in prayer” to the Lord Jesus. The word is used to express “prayer” in the following, among other places: 2Co_1:23, “I call God to witness”; 1Pe_1:17, “And if ye call on the Father,” etc.; Act_2:21, “whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord,” etc.; Act_9:14; Act_22:16; Rom_10:12-14. This was, therefore, an act of worship; a solemn invocation of the Lord Jesus, in the most interesting circumstances in which a man can be placed - in his dying moments. And this shows that it is right to worship the Lord Jesus, and to pray to him. For if Stephen was inspired, it settles the question. The example of an inspired man in such circumstances is a safe and correct example. If it should be said that the inspiration of Stephen cannot be made out, yet the inspiration of Luke, who has recorded it, will not be called into question. Then the following circumstances show that he, an inspired man, regarded it as right, and as a proper example to be followed:(1)\tHe has recorded it without the slightest expression of an opinion that it was improper. On the contrary, there is every evidence that he regarded the conduct of Stephen in this case as right and praiseworthy. There is, therefore, this attestation to its propriety.(2)\tthe Spirit who inspired Luke knew what use would be made of this case. He knew that it would be used as an example, and as an evidence that it was right to worship the Lord Jesus. It is one of the cases which has been used to perpetuate the worship of the Lord Jesus in every age. If it was wrong, it is inconceivable that it should be recorded without some expression of disapprobation.(3)\tthe case is strikingly similar to that recorded in Joh_20:28, where Thomas offered worship to the Lord Jesus “as his God,” without reproof. If Thomas did it in the presence of the Saviour without reproof, it was right. If Stephen did it without any expression of disapprobation from the inspired historian, it was right.(4)\tthese examples were used to encourage Christians and Christian martyrs to offer homage to Jesus Christ. Thus, Pliny, writing to the Emperor Trajan, and giving an account of the Christians in Bithynia, says that they were accustomed to meet and “sing hymns to Christ as to God” (Latriner).(5)\tit is worthy of remark that Stephen, in his death, offered the same act of homage to Christ that Christ himself did to the Father when he died, Luk_23:46. From all these considerations, it follows that the Lord Jesus is a proper object of worship; that in most solemn circumstances it is right to call upon him, to worship him, and to commit our dearest interests to his hands. If this may be done, he is divine.Receive my spirit - That is, receive it to thyself; take it to thine abode in heaven. Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Check the passages mentioned throughout there as well, brother again, don't think your intent is wrong in the slightest, but nor is it a necessary statement you are making.
Hia (I like that) Annie,We don’t differ of opinion, trust me. I don’t for one moment believe that Jesus and the Father are the same. I do realize that some of my statements may give a wrong impression, so I will rephrase some of what I wrote that led to the quote: “The Father exalted Jesus and gave Him a name above every other name. Is it possible that God the Father gave Jesus His own name, Eternal Father?”Thank you for that input. The objective of what I am trying to say is that we can debate the Trinity for another 2000 years, and still not come up with the right answer, because we are not the infinite God and have only finite minds. Hence Jesus’ command to obey all HE taught us, and not what WE try to justify with different Scriptures.Joshua: I am writing another article on the “subjection” of Jesus to the Father, after His last enemy has been destroyed, so that the Father will reign over all. 1 Cor. 15:22-28; Rev. 10:7 and Rev. 11:15-17. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1Cor.15:28). If Jesus is co-equal to the Father, why will He be subjected to the Father?Thank you both for your response, God bless you,In His LoveHans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23)The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net
Hi Mike,Thank you for your response and comments. I have all the commentaries you quoted and others. I have discussed this subject with a number of pastors and ministry leaders. These discussions included all the points you quoted and even more. I have studied this and prayed about this since I lost my job in the spring of 2001. I want to respond to you, but I need some time.Thanks again and God bless you,Hans Prang
Can I make an early plea here, for a very measured look at this subject? Hans, you may feel frustrated, but, there is much to explore yet, to give your thesis a context, which does not (and I believe you are drawing to our attention to something worthy of understanding deeply and making it our practice) undermine other scripture.The main thing I wish to say in this post, is, the order is changing - it is set to change (Col 1: 15 - 20). However, when Jesus was here, what He taught is what we should be going on with. I think that much is simple. John 1029 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and Father are one. 38 '.. believe, that the Father in me, and I in him.'When we read in John 17 about unity, we are talking about a spiritual unity through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which, when applied to both Acts 7:59 and Rev 22:20, is not the issue. In both these verses, the speaker is speaking directly to Christ about two things Christ can do - 'receive' Stephen's spirit, and 'come'. Neither of these are what I would call 'through' prayers. We come to the Father through Christ John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. The 'by' is not supposed to indicate that we stop at Christ... it is more that being found in Christ, we are conducted by Him into the Father's presence, through the operation of the Holy Spirit. That's one reason it makes no sense to pray to the Holy Spirit. His job is different - not to answer prayers the way the Father answers them when we pray in Jesus's Name. Philippians 29 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; The prayer-related reason His Name has been exalted, is so that, coming 'in His Name' puts us above all these things too. That's one of the ways that prayer works. Our faith in His Name, is that His Name is above all and therefore carries authority against which no other power can effectively resist. In this sense, when we pray, it is not 'our' faith, which has made the difference to being answered affirmatively by God, it is that His faith took Him through the cross and into glory, where He is rightfully exalted above every other spiritual power - but not His Father. Look at Ephesians 1, from v17.'That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. According to this, the church is filled with the fulness of HIM that filleth all in all - Christ. If we are 'the body of Christ' and therefore have authority to 'pray in His Name' there has to be another - the Father - to whom we are looking for the answers to our petitons.I've only scratched the surface of this and may have said most of all I know already, but let me say, the dynamics of my prayer life for many years has been based on praying to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit, who makes the life of the Son real in me, according to the resurrection power which the Father Himself, brings to bear, or uses to work His life in me.I hope this is not a controvesial thought. If you are willing to look at the dynamics of us in Him and Him in us, then we can only pray in Jesus Name, and not 'to' Him as such.This may not be what has been coming out of our mouths at times, but the Spirit searches the hearts and knows how to communicate appropriately with heaven on our behalf and through the Spirit, heaven reads our hearts too. The Father longs and intends to bless His children (the brethren of Christ - Heb 2:10) and overlooks our theology, I feel sure. But, the effectiveness of a prayer life may be balanced on disentangling our thinking and bringing it into line with a wide variety of verses which all bear on our fuller understanding (and I make no big claims here; I've heard this preached and I find it works).EDIT: please read my next post before responding to this one. Thx.
Since posting earlier, I've realised I also talk to the Lord Himself. I've no idea if this qualifies as 'prayer' or, would be better difined as 'fellowship'.... it is at an almost subconscious level in the Spirit and many facets of His glorious Person are acknowledged - worshipped, enquired after, allowed to challenge my own condition. The 'otherness' of Himself is a key aspect of this and I can't explain it except in terms such as Rev 5:12 - '...Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.'
dorcas, not to get off topic. But I thing prayer is fellowship, just with Him.The real topic, I will refrain from speaking, to see how it all unfolds.
The word pray means 'ask.' The Bible says 'ask and ye shall receive.' Many people asked things of Jesus, and Jesus granted them. They prayed to Jesus for things, and got them. When Peter began to sink in the water, He said 'Lord, save me.' Jesus in return 'stretched forth his hand, and caught him.'Jesus forgave the man's sins who was lowered through the roof. Then healed the man as well. Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 is foretold to be 'The mighty God, The everlasting Father.' Jesus also said, 'I and my Father are one.' I know that some of the Scriptures don't speak of the Holy Ghost like they do of Christ. How we should pray "in" the Holy Ghost and not "to" the Holy Ghost. I don't think it is heresy if someone's says 'Spirit, fall afresh on me.' I do think that the Scriptures make this distinction, because the Holy Ghost is in us, while the Father and the Son are in heaven. So it is the Holy Ghost giving us the urge to pray to God in heaven, but the Holy Ghost is still God.So it is sort of like God reaching His hand down and touching your heart to pray to Him. Yet He doesn't want you to pray to His arm, but to Him, though the arm of God is still 100% God.
Thank you Hans. I appreciate your answer and willingness to look at Is.9:6 through the language in it.by YeshuaIsMyGd on 2005/9/17 0:07:16My question for you is. How can something be the same, but not co-equal? Explain this please.Now as our brother has already stated, I too must admit that I have a problem with stating 'They' are not Co-Equal. If 'They' are not, as our brother had initially asked, then how can "they" be One God, as in Gen. chpt. 1 gives the "plural" Eloheim .... As does the Shema Deut. 6:4. ?Thank you again for your patience.Love in Him.Annie
Dear brothers and sisters,I thank you for the opportunity to share more and bringing me to my knees. I am very much humbled. I have read some of your threads on this forum and through them seen the love you have for our Lord. I become also more and more aware of the fact how easy one can read material of someone, and not being able to directly interact, get the wrong impression. I am not frustrated; if I give that impression, please forgive me. I am saddened and driven to prayer for the Church daily, asking the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for unity in the Body of Christ.What I write I don’t do lightly, for the consequences of teaching error or leading anyone astray, i.e. away from our Lord, are very grave. This is the reason I asked for time to respond to brother Mike and through this, to all of you. The question I asked through title of this thread is: Is asking Jesus for anything Sin? This is a deep question with a great number of consequences if addressed correctly. I purposely didn’t say: is praying to Jesus sin, because it isn’t. Prayer is worship, we are to worship Jesus. Psalm 2 is very clear in verse 12 when the imperative statement is made: Kiss the Son (KJV), or Pay homage to the Son (NASB). It is clear in the context of the Psalm that this is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Lord. If we don’t pay homage, He will become angry and we will perish. The most difficult passage with respect to “asking,” is John 14:14. This passage is translated differently in today’s Bibles. The KJV states: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do (it), and others such as the NASB: "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do (it). This Scripture is one of the most difficult ones in light of the title of this thread and John 16:23: And in that day ye shall ask me nothing (KJV), "In that day you will not question Me about anything (NASB). I have read a number of commentaries and explanations and it doesn’t matter how long and how hard you study this, there is always someone who has a deeper and better understanding of languages, manuscripts, etc., etc. As I have written before, I have discussed this with pastors of different denominations and the like (those that were willing to, many weren’t). Some were very honest when they said: you have easy talking, I have a family to feed, or, this is my job, or, this denomination’s doctrines agree the most with what I believe.Do we not realize that if we as Christians would interpret the Bible the same way that we would be one IN THE SPIRIT. One with the Father, One with the Son, and, One with one another through the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Do we also not realize that this would eliminate the need for denominations? The leader of a para-church organization said to me: “Do you know what you are asking? That would be the end of our ministry!”This is the reason why I started my previous thread: The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8b). Paul states it very plainly in Epehsians 6:11,12. He refers to the wiles or schemes (methodeia) of the Devil. The Greek word methodeia may also be translated as: trickery, cunning arts, deceit, etc. The armor that we are to wear includes the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. As long as Satan is able to make us disagree with one another, he will have succeeded. It is with the Word that Jesus defeated Satan; we have to use the same. If we don’t agree, Satan has rendered us ineffective.I don’t want to make this post too long, since some of my young friends tell me that anything long will not be read by them. Please bear with me; I will address the Trinity further in another post on this thread shortly.In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23)The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net
In this post I will share what I have gleaned from the Scriptures to support my understanding of the Trinity.I took God at His Word when in the spring of 2001, I disregarded as much as possible by His grace alone, my denominational preferences and turned to: ‘Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. ‘You will seek Me and find (Me) when you search for Me with all your heart. ‘I will be found by you,’ declares the LORD… (Jer.29:12-14). I reasoned that if I believed God for the promise of eternal life, I also had to believe that He would reveal Himself to me when He knew that my motives for my seeking Him were pure.There are a number of issues that can be discussed from 1Cor.15:22-28. For the purpose of the issue that “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are co-equal,” I will as much as possible attempt to stick to this one topic only. I will quote passages taken directly from 1Cor.15 from the NASB95. “then comes the end, when He [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.” It is evident from this passage that He (Jesus) will hand the kingdom to God the Father. “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.” In this passage it clearly states that the Son Himself will be subjected to God the Father. “Subjected,” the Greek word “hupotasso” means: submit to one’s control, be subordinate to.“but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets” (Rev.10:7). The mystery of God in this context refers to: “then (comes) the end, when He [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.” This becomes clearer when we read what happens “when the seventh angel is about to sound.”“Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign” (Rev.11:15-17). This passage tells us that when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, the Lord God (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) begins to reign, although I can see that someone may argue that “the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,” implies that both Jesus and the Father have ownership of the kingdom, but the quoted passage ends with the Lord God Almighty has begun to reign.In light of these Scriptures, it is impossible to say that Jesus is the same as, or co-equal with the Father, except for a period of time during the Church Age when the Father: “…He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church” (Eph.1:20-22). This is were the equality of all believers, or oneness of the Church, comes in with Jesus and the Father, when we read: “and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Eph.2:6,7). This is what Jesus asked the Father for in John 17.Then there is still the issue of the Holy Spirit and His role and equality with the Father and the Son.I will wait to see if this post gives rise to more comments or questions before I post the next item.God bless you abundantly,In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23).The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net
Hans,First I would like to say that I do appreciate and agree with your comments about being willing to forget everything people have taught you in light of trying to understand Scripture by personal Spirit-guided reading. I also appreciate your unity of the body of Christ comments. I believe that God's holy people should unite, also.Anyway, concerning the trinity, remember that 'no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.' We must put together all verses on a subject to get a doctrine. Scriptire does speak of Jesus handing the kingdom over to the Father, and it is obvious Jesus was often obediant to the Father during His entire life.However, Jesus also taught in John 10:30 that "I and my Father are one." So in other words, Jesus has always been, and always will be, as well as the Holy Ghost. All other things were created (earth, angels, us, etc). Jesus' very name implies that He would save us from our sins, so this was the plan of God before the creation. So Jesus' mission was to seek and save that which was lost even before the creation. So he left heaven to do this. Therefore, He was God's servant, doing God's will, and yet still God. There is no simple way to explain the trinity, but all three are 100% God, and yet Jesus is obediant to the Father, as the Holy Ghost is obediant to Jesus. I mentioned in another thread how the Holy Ghost was like God's arm. Still God, but the part of God directing you toward the Father using the arm. Jesus was God put into a human being. Like a king and a prince.When an earthly king dies, and the prince becomes the king, the father did not lose his stature, it passed on. But when God is put into a prince, the Prince of Peace is not like an earthly prince, in that he is still obediant to the Father, but only because he was also 100% flesh. Jesus was not exalted to sit at the right hand of God, until the flesh He embodied fulfilled all the prophesies. Obviously he was given that stature when He sat down at Father's right hand. When a heavenly King has a Son, he passes on rule, and still keeps it, because He will never die. So they rule side by side, but one is still Prince, and one the Fatherly King, but both still God. Jesus was not created, but was the aspect of God that came to ransom His creation.Those who overcome, will also be heirs with Christ, and shall obtain part of the same inheritance. This does not change the fact the we are not God, and that both the Father and Jesus still are. So my take is that Jesus is obediant because He was the part of God that became a missionary directly sent to earth, and probably so that we could never look at God and say, 'he doesn't know what it is like to be human.' That's one reason Jesus is the judge, become His becoming flesh put Him in a position of obediance to the Father, but also made him our peer so that He could judge us, just like in civil court (a jury of peers).
In light of these Scriptures, it is impossible to say that Jesus is the same as, or co-equal with the Father,Dear Hans.As soon as I heard that you and your wife go to the Nursing Home to minister, my heart strings were pulled.You've had a nice temperment here on the forum and we all, I know, appreciate that peace from folks.I only ask you to pray.You mention first off that you have "dreams" or visions, which I don't doubt, and you just posted Art Katz's sermon on "False Prophets", and knowing what the O.T. says, that no matter what a "prophet" says that's true, if they bring another God, then we shouldn't listen.I'm not asking anything more than that you pray and be open to some of the brothers here.Right now, I feel this is a man's thing to go into, to discuss the co-equality.I mentioned Eloheim in Genesis One and in the Shema ... so for now, that is all I think I should do.Besides Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The verses through-out the Old and New are so numerous pointing to HIS Co-Equality, I only pray you are open.In His precious Love.Annie
Dear Letsgetbusy, Annie, and all other brothers and sisters in the Lord,I agree 100% with Letsgetbusy. It was never my intention to take away from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to Whom I have committed myself to go where ever His Spirit leads me. All I meant with the “co-equal” discussion is that: “the Father is greater than I” (Jesus’ own words); the Father commanded Jesus, and the Father is the head of Christ. How I wish I could speak to you face to face. This whole thread came as the result of a very strong personal conviction (which I believe to be from God) and of something that someone wrote as response to an earlier post I wrote, regarding prayer for others, i.e. standing-in-the-gap, and unity in prayer. This thread was meant to bring us here:Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, died on the cross in order that His God and our God (John 20:17) could reconcile us to Himself, His Father and our Father (2Cor.5:19 and John 20:17).I understand that when the veil in the temple tore from top to bottom, at the time that Jesus yielded up His Spirit (Matt.27:50,51), He opened the way for us to enter the Holy Place by His blood (Heb.10:19,20). God has sent the Spirit of His Son, the Spirit of adoption, by which we cry out Abba! Father! (Rom.8:14-17 and Gal.4:4-7). We, by Jesus’ blood are granted to come before the very throne of the Father, and call Him Father. This is the point of this thread:Do we acknowledge the incredible sacrifice of our Lord and Savior, by which He fulfilled the requirements of His Father, so we could again come in His presence, when we continue to ask Jesus, and not use the PRIZE He so sacrificially paid by His blood? Do we follow the example of all the apostles in the New Testament, who always addressed the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Where in the Bible are we ever told to ask the Holy Spirit directly? My last questions: Is it wrong or less effective to ask the Father through Jesus Christ the Son than to ask Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit directly? If its is not wrong to ask the Father through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, led by His Spirit, would it not bring some more unity to the Body, if we did? Do we, through all this consider the Holiness of the Godhead.Annie. I appreciate you very much. It hurts very much when one has spoken the Word of God to elderly people, and they died not accepting because the one speaking isn’t a priest of a certain church. It is extremely exiting when someone asks you when they are over 90 years old and have gone to church their entire life: Why do I have to be born again? My wife and I are also palliative care volunteers. It is so amazing to ask the Father to give us an open door with someone who is on the threshold of eternity and who has been deceived their entire life. My wife has been given the opportunity by our Lord on several occasions to pray with someone like that. Praise God.
EDIT: You'll see how closely I posted after LetUsPray. I hope my comments do not complicate this thread. Please try to not let them do so... EDIT end.Annie,Not taking sides here, just want to mention for all readers, my personal understanding, which is that references to Jesus are specifically to the Word made Flesh. The only begotten Son of the Father always was, is and will be as 'the Word'. But as 'the Word made Flesh', one is forced to look from eternity, to time- earth- and sin-bound nature.In my thinking, this alters - not the truth of what it true in eternal terms - but, what WAS true during the time that He (the Son of God) was made a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:7 - 9) when He became also the Son of Man.When listening to JESUS speaking, for the Father, to mankind, we are hearing something slightly different from the Logos, I believe, although the two are compatible, obviously, or we really would be in trouble! I think it's ESSENTIAL the perspective on who Jesus was as a Man, is held in focus while discussing His teaching on prayer, because He was speaking to us as men, with instructions as to how to pray to the Father whom we did not yet know by the Holy Spirit.The dynamics of the relationship between God and man was changed so dramatically by the Incarnation and Christ's victorious accomplishments, that even the prayer life of OT saints has to be interpreted within different parameters from those of us in the Spirit now, and those who are not yet born again but seeking to know God in the light of the knowledge of Christ.I know you're a stickler for the written word and I'm not against that, but, as you yourself have said many times, CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.That's another plea from me, which I hope you will be able to factor into your thinking through this.In a way, if the Son was made LOWER than the angels, it is OBVIOUS His relationship of equality (if that is what He had) also must have altered.With regard to AUTHORITY we know from what Jesus said to the centurion, that His authority had been delegated to Him by the Father. In other words, His POWER was dependent on His SUMISSION to His Father's will.In the same way as my children are also human (same substance as me) and 'equal' because they are not more or less human than I am, I cannot doubt the equality of the Son with the Father or their unity in the Holy Spirit, but, the very use of terms such as Son and Father, implies a precedence of the Father to the Son. Just like my children were not here before me.I'll leave it there, I think.
LUP,I hear your question, and I have pondered the same thing. Since Scripture seems to put Jesus in service to, but yet in equality with, the Father...Phil 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"...I will continue to pray to the Lord Jesus Christ, until I read a Scripture that tells me not to.Jesus always prayed to the Father, but here is the question: Who else would He pray to? Jesus had to pray to the Father. On the other hand, many, many, people in Scripture prayed to Jesus, and He never corrected them. So I would say you are not losing out to pray to the Son versus the Father. I pray to both. They are seated side by side.
Christology in and of itself is a study from Genesis to Revelations.Many of the verses given on this page, were spoken by 'The Logos', "after" He had taken human form and during ... but After He returned to His "former Glory" ... EQUALITY WITH GOD AND 'IS' GOD ... He took back all authority and His former Place.The Holy Spirit, is called "The Spirit of God" and also "The Spirit of Jesus" .Just as you have a spirit ... The Holy Spirit is so much ONE with Christ and The Father, that HE is called by Both their Names.Jesus took the form of SON, at conception, but He is going to return as THE LOGOS, as He was from eternity past and is presently (Rev.19).He also, to add to the MYSTERY of His Equality, will return with a New Name. He and the Father are so much so ONE, our little pea brains cannot fathom such co-equality, and no matter how much we say that may be right ... to take one ounce of The Logos' Deity away from Him is very dangerous ground.With Love and all due respect and honor to The King of Kings.Annie
I would only ask that those who speak for Jesus will check out how many times HE used the only words the Jews understood to be GOD .... Jesus said, "I AM" and also the other O.T. Quote, 'I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA - THE BEGINNING AND THE END.'Please be careful here, pray and study more before you teach anyone WHO JESUS IS.Thank you and God Bless you all.Annie
Dear Annie,'..to take one ounce of The Logos' Deity away from Him is very dangerous ground.If that is a possible interpretation of something I said, it was not intended to be or even vaguely implied. If anything I was thinking of the difference between 'the Logos' and the words He spoke ... that's all. In the light of John 174 'I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...' it is clear that He was completely on earth while He was the Word made Flesh. In no way does this detract from His Deity in my mind. I hope this is now clear.
Dorcas, I was responding as I have been, since before your post sister, on the "Co-Equality" and the TriUnity of God. The 'Equality' of the Three in One.That has been my sole objective in every post to this thread so far and all that I am concerned with.God Bless you.Annie
Thank you all very much for your patience.Jesus said: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:32).I don’t want to drag this out, nor do I want to be smart. I only seek truth and love in the Body.I am totally sincere when I ask you this. What did Jesus mean when He said:“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you” (John 16:23).If I have offended anyone, please forgive for this is the LAST thing I want to do. This is also my last entry on this thread, unless more thank you's are in order.God bless you all,
Hi Hans,As I posted to ya on page one.... I ONLY disagreed with ya on the "non-co-equality" statements, that you posted more than once.Christ 'did' give an order of prayer and as I said, I do agree with you on that.Pray to the Father, by the Authority of Jesus, and IN the Holy Spirit... so you've gotten no complaint from me on that.I'm not 'offended' at all personally.I think we are to "die to 'personal' offense" eventually in our walks.But I can't say, Let's agree for peace & unity, because that statement, in and of itself, is not Scriptural. Jesus said, that won't happen, so did Paul.Love will always be there between us, but we won't agree on saying Jesus is not Co-Equal with The Father ... that's all.Love you and Lord prosper your ministry to the Nursing Home and I just have asked that you also stay open on just this one point, that actually is a biggie... though does not affect our love for each other.Always.Annie
LUP,Ask all the questions you want. Please search out the Scriptures and pray that God gives you insight, as our answers our second rate.This take is the best I have heard on praying in Jesus' name. John R Rice explains these concepts in his sermon and book 'Prayer, Asking and Receiving.' Dr. Rice explains how this verse about asking in Jesus' name is the only time in Scripture that this is mentioned. Praying in Jesus' name is not mentioned in any of the books after the gospels, or was never mentioned during the Lord's prayer, in the garden, the cross, or anywhere after.Rice's take is that basically our pattern for prayer today is based upon incidentals, rather that fundamentals. Most people today feel that they must use lots of thee's and thou's in the beginning of their prayer. That they must kick up gold dust and tickle the feet of the angels and so forth. When in actuality, the prayers God answered in the gospels were prayers such as, 'Lord save me, God be merciful to me a sinner,' and sometimes no words verbally, but yet an obvious prayer of the heart shown by action.What Rice's take is concerning our praying in Jesus' name, is basically praying in His authority and in His will. When we pray for things that honor Him, we pray properly. In other words it is the same as what James says, that we 'receive not' because we 'ask amiss.' Anything asked just to satisfy our own lustful way is not getting the attention of God. So it is not being asked in His name. When we pray a prayer that is not honoring God, but we say 'in Jesus' name' at the end of the prayer, we are just signing our name on the document, instead of the signature of Him. So we aren't really even praying, we are just going through a motion.This being said, it is not necessarily wrong to say 'in Jesus' name' at the end of a prayer, but important to realize that all of our prayers should be done in Jesus' authority, or in other words, we should pray properly regardless of whether we say that at the end or not. So whether we say 'in Jesus' name' at the end of the prayer or not, when we pray 'amiss' we are not praying in His name, or in other words in His authority. He does not hear our prayers when we ask sinfully:Isaiah 59:2 "your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
:-( This is not an attack on any one person, but a defense of The Triune nature of God.I've tried to let this go. I've tried to just go to sleep and wait and see if some other scholarly brothers on here would catch page 2.I posted that I was waiting and wanting a male to do this. My heart is sorta busted up by what went on and the things said.I tried so hard to not go reread page 2, but the thing has been haunting me all day and night.Is there anyone else here who has studied Christology at Bible School ? Anyone who sees themselves as Christocentric or the Bible as being such, from O.T. to N.T. ? I'm so sad, I can just about type this ... but I've got to at least get part of this off of my chest, because others have no problem with doing that with me.I'll make this part one and pray someone will do part 2 for me ... We're talking about "Jesus" here and CO-EQUALITY if anyone wants to contribute ....~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (he,-not in the Greek) they went backward, and fell to the ground.He called Himself "I AM". In the "present tense".Why did they all fall to the ground ? Not on their faces, but backwards.That moment could have given them a space of time to repent, but as Wesley said, "probably the priests among them might persuade themselves and their attendants, that this also was done by Beelzebub; and that it was through the providence of God, not the 'indulgence' of Jesus, that they received no farther damage."~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he,-not in the Greek) ye shall die in your sins. Joh 8:24 - If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in Joh_8:58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exo_3:14. J. Wesley**********************************I am (εγώ ειμι) the words are rather the solemn expression of His absolute divine being, as in Joh_8:58 : “If ye believe not that I am.” See Deu_32:39; Isa_43:10; and compare Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58 of this chapter, and Joh_13:19. Vincents**********************************The phrase egō eimi occurs three times here (Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58) and also in Joh_13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in Joh_8:58. Robertson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. “Verily, verily, I say unto you; I do not only say it in private to my own disciples, who will be sure to say as I say, but to you my enemies and persecutors; I say it to your faces, take it how you will: Before Abraham was, I am;” prin Abraam genesthaî egō eimi, Before Abraham was made or born, I am. The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator; well therefore might he make himself greater than Abraham. Before Abraham he was, First, As God. I am, is the name of God (Exo_3:14); it denotes his self-existence; he does not say, I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last, immutably the same (Rev_1:8); thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Joh_1:1; Pro_8:23. Secondly, As Mediator. He was the appointed Messiah, long before Abraham; the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev_13:8), the channel of conveyance of light, life, and love from God to man. This supposes his divine nature, that he is the same in himself from eternity (Heb_13:8) M. Henry*********************************I am: That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude, who were exasperated at it to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Exo_3:14; Isa_43:13, Isa_44:6, Isa_44:8, Isa_46:9, Isa_48:12; Rev_1:8 R.A. Torrey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~From page two. This verse was mentioned.....1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.God . . . all in all--as Christ is all in all (Col_3:11; compare Zec_14:9). 1Co 15:28 - - When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the one infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal. And yet, as there appears to be a personality essentially in the infinite Godhead, that personality must exist eternally; but how this shall be we can neither tell nor know till that time comes in which we shall See Him as He Is. 1Jo_3:2. Adam Clarke*********************************that God may be all in all; for by God is not meant the Father personally, but God essentially considered, Father, Son, and Spirit, who are the one true and living God; to whom all the saints will have immediate access, in whose presence they will be, and with whom they shall have uninterrupted fellowship, without the use of such mediums as they now enjoy; all the three divine Persons will have equal power and government in and over all the saints; they will sit upon one and the same throne; there will be no more acting by a delegated power, or a derived authority: God will be all things to all his saints, immediately without the use of means; he will be that to their bodies as meat and clothes are, without the use of them; and all light, glory, and happiness to their souls, without the use of ordinances, or any means; he will then be all perfection and bliss, to all the elect, and in them all, which he now is not; some are dead in trespasses and sins, and under the power of Satan; the number of them in conversion is not yet completed; and, of those that are called many are in a state of imperfection, and have flesh as well as spirit in them; and of those who are fallen asleep in Christ, though their separate spirits are happy with him, yet their bodies lie in the grave, and under the power of corruption and death; but then all being called by grace, and all being raised, and glorified in soul and body, God will be all in all: this phrase expresses both the perfect government of God, Father, Son, and Spirit, over the saints to all eternity, and their perfect happiness in soul and body, the glory of all which will be ascribed to God; and it will be then seen that all that the Father has done in election, in the council and covenant of peace, were all to the glory of his grace; and that all that the Son has done in the salvation of his people, is all to the glory of the divine perfections: and that all that the Spirit of God has wrought in the saints, and all that they have done under his grace and influence, are all to the praise and glory of God, which will in the most perfect manner be given to the eternal Three in One. Gill*************************************************Before the Incarnation, was there Anyone but One God ?Now onto Future tense .....Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in 'that day' shall there be one LORD, and his Name One. Rev. 10 & 11 were brought up, but not translated properly on page 2, so I'm going to the End of All things to bring those Chpt.s to Light.At the end of Revelation ... when all is brought back under One God ... from vs 3, do you see anything different ? ... Remembering, these 5 verses are one continuous sentence.Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and 'his' servants shall serve 'him': Rev 22:4 And they shall see 'his' face; and 'his' name shall be in their foreheads{Rev 3:12}. Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for 'the Lord God' giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever. Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and 'the Lord God' of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto 'his' servants the things which must shortly be done. Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the prophecy of this book. ETC.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~With Love in Him.Annie
In my experience....I was raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses. What many Christians don't know about the JW's is that they are hard core bible believers. They take it to be literal. So literal in fact, that they do not believe in the trinity. No where in the bible does it state that Jesus is God. When I was growing up, I was taught that Jesus was the first of all creation. He was Michael the Archangel. He was a Lord but not the Lord. God had given Jesus all authority over the earth and heavens, however, Jesus was not and is not God. And so, when I was growing up, I never prayed to Jesus. I would pray to the Father, whose name (Psalms 83:18) is Jehovah. I would pray through Jesus, and in Jesus' name. I was taught to say, "In Jesus' name, Amen." However, I was never to pray to Jesus or worship Jesus. I was never to ask Jesus to forgive my sins. Only God can forgive sins. Only God deserves worship. And God, as I was told, is Jehovah. Then, I was saved, and I realized the truth. All the years of my life I had been praying to the wrong God. I had been decieved. Jesus Christ is the only God whom can forgive sins, and by which someone can be saved. When I came to know Jesus and pray to Him, my prayers were answered. I was saved.In my experience, I have learned there is but one God, and He is Jesus Christ. I could argue and defend this with scripture, parables, and logical arguments, but it will do no good. For all of Christianity centers on this one secret which is hidden from all: Jesus Christ is God.It is hidden from all so that we may believe it by faith. As all Christians with a testimony know, our faith is not based upon a bible or an argument or what someone has told us. True faith is based upon an experience. A testimony is based upon testifying to Christ and the truth of Christ. True faith comes from being saved and knowing you are saved by meeting Christ. We know Christ because He comes down from Heaven and saves us. It is a real experience. I have not met a Christian who could not describe thier testimony, this experience, and tell the exact date.As far as your question, "Is asking Jesus for anything sin?"One of Jehovah's Witnesses would most likely answer "yes" to your question. All I can say is that by my experience, none of your prayers will be answered unless you ask for them from Jesus. Jesus Christ is the only name by which a person may be saved. If it is a sin to pray to Jesus, then how should anyone be saved?
Personally I do not want to jump into a judging mood and say it is a sin or not, but one thing can be said for sure is that, Asking apart from the will of God is missing the mark. We are not told to pray for anything but to pray for His WILL to be done in our lives.Blessings :-)
Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,I break the earlier statement I made, that I wouldn’t continue this thread. It has been suggested that I pray and ask God; I have to consider what others think, etc., etc.I have done that and do that. I am a man of prayer first and foremost. I don’t want to be smart. I dislike hurting people even when I don’t agree with them. I serve a Savior Who dug me out of the pit of despair, Who loves me, and to Whom I have committed myself to follow at whatever cost. A part of that commitment is sharing what He has shown me.The reason that I write what I write is that I prayed and fasted for a period of approximately three months, after the Lord told me to repent on the morning of February 9, 2001. I did break the fast occasionally during that time; otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this. A number of things that I had been taught and had believed changed during that time. These things all pertained to Church doctrine and denominational beliefs.Prior to this morning, my main “ministry” was counseling, mostly deliverance. This was not sought out by me; I tried to run from it many times. It shows a man the most ugly things that mankind does to one another as result of demonic influence. What I learned through this and in the last few years, is that if there is anything that lacks in the Church of Jesus Christ is true love and forgiveness.I have more to say about praying to the Father and about the Trinity, but I am very reluctant to, because we – being human – see things through the glasses of our worldview; in other words, we see them the way we are taught and are comfortable with. We can debate these things until the Lord returns and never agree, therefore I am not sure if it serves any purpose or is edifying.I love you too Annie.God bless you all,
I Love you too Hans,But I must say, that no amount of fasting that I've done, nor ministry that I've done, nor works of faith, etc., can make up for sound doctrine.I mentioned earlier ... We're talking about Jesus here.We call ourselves after "His" Name ... by saing we are 'Christians'.We try to win people for 'Christ'.But yet, we cannot do simple apologetics on Who He is, or worse, we make mistakes on Who He is.This should not be.I hate contention. It makes me ill, physically and emotionally drained .... but my heart was depressed all of yesterday, that some new convert or other young folks, would read here that Jesus is not co-egual with the Father.Just saying that, feels like a ripping in my inside.I would have rathered to come on today and see His People, who are called by His Name, posting their defense of Who He really is, in His entirety, than this end result.I give up on this. I want to hear about HIM, not what we are doing or who we think He is, but what His Word says.Have we nothing to say to what was posted early this morning or yesterday ? I suppose I may as well just go back to the lounge and stay there.And Love has everything to do with it Hans.Always.Annie
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:The father and Jesus are one.In Christ,GaryE
You are right, and I totally agree with you.God bless you.
Hans, I want to understand you.You spent a big post on page 2 basically saying ... and I'll just quote it here ...In light of these Scriptures, it is impossible to say that Jesus is the same as, or co-equal with the FatherDo you see where and why I would post what I did on page 3 ?I am trying to understand now how you really believe.God help us.Annie
This post is to cheer 'all' of us back up. And I know Hans would approve. (We've been PMing. ~ Not to worry, we're cool ! :-) ). Describing "GOD" as "three in ONE", is very hard ... so sometimes, it's just best to let His Word do the talking.I think this only shows us that "God IS Love".One God, in three Equal Persons, yet manifesting as One God in the Beginning and again at the End, but three in the middle. :)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~What is the 'mystery' ?That our Creator God would die for us. One God called 'ĕlôhîym.Gen 1:1 In the beginning God{'ĕlôhîym/plural} created the heaven and the earth. Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him {God created 'for' Himself - by Himself.}Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus ChristWHO ?Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Who is this that came to Adam & Eve in the Garden ? ~~ Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God{'ĕlôhîym/plural} walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God{'ĕlôhîym/plural} amongst the trees of the garden.Who's on the throne ?Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. Eze 1:27 And I saw as the color of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke. Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. The Express Image of GodJoh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. The Lamb = The Creator = God ~Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The Lamb comes out of the "midst" (or middle) of the throne, otherwhere's seen as from "the bosom" of God. Still One God."The Mystery" .... to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God, The New Jersusalem, with GOD. (all that Adam 'had', plus lots more :) Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be 'with them', and be their God. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. ~~NEXT THREE VERSES ARE IN 'RED'.Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. See you there. :-D Amen.
EDIT: I have no idea how the last few posts (on this p4) escaped my attention, but, knowing Greg doesn't like whole posts being deleted, I'll leave this and post what I was going to after it, as well. I am not trying to 'post against' anything that has been said - just for those reading, to get a fuller picture of the relationships God has in mind between us and Him. No way am I attempting (either) to undermine 'Trinity' as an accepted doctrine of the true Church. I think we'd all agree it's the best we can do as an attempt to codify of the ONE who is FAR BIGGER than us - God Himself! EDIT end.Dear all who are watching this thread,A couple of days ago, (roughly) it occurred to me that the important thing about prayer, is to pray in the Spirit - which echoes Samkma's point.Asking apart from the will of God is missing the mark. We are not told to pray for anything but to pray for His WILL to be done in our lives.And in this respect, a 'form of words' is also missing the mark, which is not to say, Hans and Annie, that the form of words is irrelevant - just that it should be guided by the Spirit. This is especially important in the light of these kinds of prayer - 1 Samuel 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken. and thisRomans 826 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Yesterday, in a different thread, I posted thisEphesians 41 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace - one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Now, add these, if you would, please.John 1312 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for I am.14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Thank you GrannieAnnie, and all of you who shared in this. What I attempted to say caused a great deal of confusion. I know what I believe and what I said did not reflect this. The purpose of this thread was prayer. Thank you Dorcas.I agree with Annie and all her posts, but I wasn’t thinking towards the same end. I believe that I confused “equality” with “purpose or role.”I also know that man with his finite mind isn’t able to explain the Majesty and Mystery of Our Infinite Wise God. Who am I to take away from His glory? God bless you all,
My dear brother Hans and sister Annie,Praise the Lord! Even while I was editing the last post, I think we've proved we are all drinking into the same Spirit.I also know that man with his finite mind isn’t able to explain the Majesty and Mystery of Our Infinite Wise God.As I was writing my last post, the Lord brought another scripture to heart. It is long, but, not irrelevant, as unless we know or learn how to pray in the Spirit, we will not be able to stand against the enemy when severe trials come. This has been impressed on me recently, in my reading of three different epistles. In the first chapter of each, persecution is squarely addressed, and, it appears to be linked to the truth of our salvation; that is, our repentance and cleansing, makes us objects for proper persecution. And being so persecuted, we are to endure to the death (Rev 2:10, 2 Cor 1, 1 Pet 1, 2 Thess 1). Will we?See the next post.
John 17:3 Jesus said"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.John 157 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.8 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.9 " As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and your joy may be full.12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.17 "These things I command you, that you love one another.18 " If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also.24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.25 "But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'26 " But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.27 "And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning. (NKJV)
Last nite, I sat and listened to 3 sermons or talks, by Chip Brogden. It was refreshing to hear truths you don't hear from many sources these days.I think with prayer ... our prayer life is only as deep as our revelation of God, of Who He is, and then if we have finally found the way and 'utter necessity' to depend wholely on "walking" in the Spirit as a 'natural' way to walk, then we have some conception of WWJD. He being God, only took the form of the Son at conception to "show us how we are to walk" ... 100% dependent, and not in our own flesh. (thoughts, actions, words, etc. that come from 'just us'.)We can't go from walking in our own strength, abilities, brain power, and so forth, and then 'suddenly' get "in the spirit" to pray.So I'd have to say about prayer, as with any other aspect of being "IN Him", that first our View of Him must be accurately 'mind-blowing' ... to have that awesome "revelation of Christ" that flattens us onto our face ... where we know we've seen 'HIM', to the point of reverent fear plus speechless Love and then to reverence Him to the point that we actually "fear walking in the flesh or our own abilities" ... having that total dependence on Him for words, actions, thoughts, etc. etc. and then the 'praying in the spirit' part is as natural as the "Walking in the Spirit", that we've respected enough to attempt to do during the whole rest of the day/or our days.Just seems without those two things... 'praying in the "Spirit" ' would be sort of just a nice sounding cliche at best.1st ~ to KNOW Him. 2nd ~ WALK in the Spirit.Then we realise ... the whole of Life is Him and not us at all. None of us and all of HIM. When flesh is put to rest.Praise this King of Glory. The Alpha and Omega.Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that 'He is' {Same as knowing He is The Great 'I AM'}, and that He is a rewarder of them that 'diligently' seek Him. Till it's All to 'His' Glory ... is what I yearn, wait and long for.Lord show us how much of 'us' is still in us.
I wish some messages of Bro. Chip Brogden is included here in sermon index.click here
Chip is a wonderful brother in Christ and I have learned so much from him, especially early on. I go back to his writings time and time again. As I have read more and more from past (dead :) authors, I see where he got alot of his wisdom as well. I can see Watchman Nee and T.A. Sparks, as well as Keith Green in themWe had the privaledge of having Chip stay at our house recently when he came to Cinci for a "School of Christ" meeting. It was an awesome time and we had a great time listening to him play our piano and sing Keith Green songs- and a few kids songs too :-) (My youngest wanted to sing John Jacob Jingle Heimersmith(?) over and over) He and I agree on an important key: "He must increase, but I must decrease" Jn. 3:30This has been my key to victory in my own life.In Him, Chanin
Dear ChaninWow that would have been a wonderful time and fellowship with Br. Chip.I have translated few of his articles to my local language to be published soon.I agreeMore of Him less of me.Amen and Blessingssam