I went to crosswalk.com and searched all translations for "discipleship" and it's no where to be found. You would think it would be somewhere in the bible considering the focus that modern Christianity puts on it.One of the greatest oppositions to street preaching is that they say we do not "disciple" people, that there is no "follow up".The reason that "discipleship" is not in any bible is because it implies someone is becoming a disciple rather then being a disciple. As soon as someone repents from their sins and believes the gospel they become a disciple. There is no becoming a disciple. You either have repented or you haven't. When you go out and preach repentance, you make disciples out of those who hear and obey. They instantly become disciples of Jesus Christ.No where in scripture is "follow up" mentioned either. Jesus never followed anyone around, people followed Jesus. If someone truly turns from their sin and turns to God then they will follow God whether or not they have to do it alone or with someone. Though, as Paul said, "all men forsook me" it doesn't matter because "the Lord stood with me".That is not to say that we should not mentor someone who wants to be mentored. Rather I am saying don't waste your time doing "follow-up" with a few people who aren't interested, when you could go and preach the gospel to the multitudes. But of coarse if you could get someones # or address so you could witness to them again or mail them a gospel tract, that is awesome.
Discipleship Unbiblical
Jesse, I understand where you are coming with this. But, there is SOME error in it. One way it's correct, the other falliable.It is correct if you say 'we don't need to follow-up on people to keep them Christians'.But it is in error with saying 'we don't need to disciple people'. This link. will provide you with ALL the scriptures that have 'disciples' in the verse, in the NASB translation.Discipleship, in as 'follow me as I follow Jesus' is NEEDED in the body of Christ today, that is RARLY seen; and truly neglected.I believe this scripture proves flaw to saying 'we don't need to disciple anyone'.Matthew 13: 3-9,18-23 (NASB) 3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 "And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 "He who has ears, let him hear." 18 "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." Why do I say this? Many new believers, INCLUDING MYSELF, had a genuine conversion. But no one had me founded on the Word of God. Many 'believers' (some say they aren't Christian, like Ray Comfort, i tend to differ, but still same point) hear God's word and accept it, but with no foundation how can they stand?Throughout the bible, PEOPLE HAD DISCIPLES, to learn or glean from. Or better yet 'mentors/fathers/mothers/mature of the faith' to teach and guide the new believers.Jesus had disciples (duh), Paul, Peter, many, just look up that link I provided.We need to help build the foundation, the foundation is NOT built in a day. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT! It takes work and time. Tears and blood, it takes your entire being and the Power of the Holy Spirit.
It’s sad indeed there would be believers who would actually oppose street preaching, makes no sense to me frankly.Let us give thanks for the one who plants, let us be thankful for the one who waters (mentors, disciples, irrigates) and let us ultimately give thanks to God who alone gives all the increase.! Cor 3:6 “ I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”I will typically have lunch at a particular restaurant once a week here in Kansas City, and each week at the same time there are two fellows seated nearby reading and discussing the Scriptures together . After a couple weeks of seeing this I inquired as to the nature of this meeting and was told of the new convert and the more seasoned believer taking their lunch hour once a week for what they termed “discipleship”. Call it mentoring, watering ect… but it’s a beautiful sight to behold to see the hunger from both these gentlemen.And make no mistake many of us, myself included were some of those uninterested or in an early awakened state folk, but someone(s) wouldn’t give up on us. Let’s allow the planter to be about his Father’s business, and let us allow the one who waters to be about his Father’s business. May we make allowances and room for all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to be in operation as we endeavor to bring in the Harvest.God Bless,TonyS
You could also interpret those verses you posted as the person that falls away had no true understanding of why they needed a Savior. If you know you are going to hell without Him people won't have to follow you around trying to teach you things you don't want to hear. You will yearn for more of Jesus if you realize that is what you must have.
I don't think Jesse is meaning stop teaching/preaching the word. (If I'm wrong Jesse then correct me) From what I get out of his post is that if they are born again, they are a disciple of Jesus. If they are not then keep preaching and praying that they will be. If you are uninterested in God, you need to be born again. Yes teach new converts about the things of God.. but you will not have a beg a new convert to come listen to you, as you would someone who really isn't born again.
As soon as someone repents from their sins and believes the gospel they become a disciple.That would make the terms "disciple" and "Christian" synonomous would it not? I don't think scripture teaches this - (Considering the vast multitude of disciples who were never saved, not the least of which is Judas Iscariot).Dan/\\/\\/\\
A disciple is a follower of Jesus. A Christian is a follower of Jesus. Judas stopped following Jesus, so Judas stopped being a disciple. If he had godly sorrow that lead to repentance, not worldly sorrow which leads to death, he would have repented and started following Christ again as Peter did.A disciple and a Christian are the same thing.I am all for mentoring new Christians. I've had wonderful mentors myself. But they never sought after me, I sought after them. That is a mark of a true convert, they will seek out fellowship and read the Word on their own. I prayed with a man who was so convicted he would barely talk, just this friday. He was a hardcore thug looking guy, but the Law shattered him with conviction. After we prayed, I gave him my card and told him to call me anytime. Rather then getting someones number to follow them, give out your number and see if they truly hunger and thirst for fellowship and learning.Usually when people say to me "I don't like street ministry (aka evangelism) because you don't do any discipleship" what they mean is that I don't get the phone number of everyone I give a tract to. We have replaced biblical evangelism with a man made "follow up". But unless a man repent, he is not a disciple, and cannot be discipled. You don't need to follow unbelievers around and try to disciple them. If someone repents from all their sins, invite them to your church and tell them to come to bible study. But if a man doesn't repent, I wouldn't invite him to come and fellowship at Church. It will damage and pollute the Church. But in our day we would rather the world comes to us, then for us to go to the world (because we don't want to evangelize). The Church is where Christians need to be fed, the highways and the hedges is where Christians are to tell nonbelievers to come into Christ. (to through in my thoughts on the seeker sensative teachings).In the words of Emeal Zwayne "people who need people to walk with God, don't walk with God, they walk with people."
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20 (New International Version) 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Matthew 28:19-20 (King James Version)King James Version (KJV)Public DomainThough naturually understand where you would be going here Jesse isn't there still some things to be considered? That the disciples followed the Lord around for quite some time before being sent out for instance. Of course that is obvious but think there is a lot of danger in 'sending' unripe fruit out into the world ...One of the greatest oppositions to street preaching is that they say we do not "disciple" people, that there is no "follow up".Seems like two different things here, one a following up as if to see if those were either in ernest or in such a way as if it was up to us somehow to do the following and convincing, as you mentioned "to those who are not interested", would agree, this isn't some kind of sales pitch.Fortunately, the Lord has seen fit to do this as was stated with the reasoning of Pauls "Will the eye say to the hand?..." It's definetly a "both\\and", Stephen comes instantly to mind, table waiter, street preacher par excellence and marytr.I know what you mean brother, the meanings we pour into words can take on a life of their own and soon can become something other than or more than they should...Maybe the next time you hear "... we do not "disciple" people" agree with them and ask if they can have their phone numbers to pass on to the hearers since they have such a great concern for them, they would surely love to help them out, no?Beyond that you can always send them here ... 8-)
Salvation and discipleship. Two completely different things. Discipleship not in the Bible? You must have a different Bible than mine. Discipleship is nothing more than taking new believers in Christ and "training them in the way that they should go that they might not depart from it". Yes, I know that verse is for parents to children but the principle is the same. It is taking that new believer, training them on the Word, in Christ into The Way. There are at least three discipleship models in the New Testament. The Jesus model with his disciples. Jesus discipled the twelve who in turn discipled others. Jesus discipled Peter who discipled Mark. This is the one on many model. The Paul/Timothy model. The one on few model. The Mark/Barnabas model. When Mark abandoned Paul, Barnabas took him under his wing. This is the peer to peer model. Paul in a long distance way discipled whole churches with his letters. He recogonized needs or fallacies in that church..spoke to the problem at hand and revealed Biblical truth to that Church. He corrected them..showed them the way they should go. He discipled others by telling them to be imitators of him (Paul) and imitators of God. Not being able to find the word "discipleship" in the Bible means nothing. You cannot find the word Trinity either...Evangelism is extremely important. I do not knock street preaching. However, I do believe that once an evangelist leads someone to Christ it is vitally important for that evangelist to make sure that person gets involved into the local body life. I do believe just leading someone to Christ and not discipling that person is like leaving someone to the wolves. That I am speaking with experience. Discipling is what the spiritual gift of pastoring/shepherding is. Its being responsible for the spiritual health of others. Can you be a Christian and not be a disciple? I say yes. A disciple by definition is someone who accepts a teaching or belief and FOLLOWS that belief. I was saved 10 years ago. During those ten years I did not follow God... I was addicted to porn, almost had an affair and shunned everything to do with God.I almost committed suicide twice. 10 years later I repented of that, and actively started following God. I placed myself in submission to a couple of Godly men...(in case you were wondering, one I sought out, the other sought me out). Was I a disciple of Christ during those 10 years? No, I did not follow His ways. Was I saved? yes, absolutely...but if I had died during that time I would been someone (like Paul said) who would have been saved from the fire...by the seat of his pants.
Okay, let me post more vivdly, hopefully you will understand it all and realize we are all saying the same thing.One, Jesse your orginal post can EASILY be taken a wrong way. It ALMOST sounds like you are saying 'discipleship is of the devil, we don't need to teach them and encourage new believers'.Also, to the rest of the posters. Posting about 'anti-street preaching' where did that come from?? It's like being in a class and the teacher is teaching about math and a student asks the teacher about History. Where is that person's mind? If you go that from what I typed, I wasn't posting anything against 'street-preachers' but against brother Jesse's post. I personally have felt God 'put a seed' within me about street preaching. And I'll let Him finish the work that He has started. By all means, anyone to say 'street-preaching is no good' should also say 'Jesus should've been quite in public, and John the baptist, and Isaiah and the rest of them.' It's riduculous to say 'there is no need for that'. (I'll leave it at that, cause I could talk about how much the church NEEDS and others say 'its fine', and I bet you all could too).Jesse said this "But if a man doesn't repent, I wouldn't invite him to come and fellowship at Church. It will damage and pollute the Church. But in our day we would rather the world comes to us, then for us to go to the world (because we don't want to evangelize). The Church is where Christians need to be fed, the highways and the hedges is where Christians are to tell nonbelievers to come into Christ. (to through in my thoughts on the seeker sensative teachings)."I think that's a biblical principle that people ignore and they brush it off like its just dust on their shoulder. Let's NOT bring leaven in the church, but remove that which is already there.I hope that cleared alot of the stuff up.
Can you be saved without following God's ways? Can you be saved without repenting? (both are really the same question)
You cannot be saved from the wrath of God without being saved from your sin. Forgiveness and deliverance, also known as justification and sanctification, are two seperate shoes, but yet the same pair. You cannot truly walk right with God if you only wear on of those shoes, you need both.If you continued on in sin; sinning, sinning, sinning, and never repenting, you certainly were not saved from your sin. As Tozer would say, you cannot have Jesus as your Savior now and then later decide to have Him as your Lord. That is why "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" Luke 13:3But, Conqueror, I rejoice that you have now repented and do not continue in sin; that you are more then a conqueror of temptation through Christ.To be truest to it's term, I would say that I do believe in what many call "discipleship". I have and am being discipled, and when I lead Christians out on the streets to witness I consider that part of discipleship for them as well. To make an official statement, I would say this; I believe in evangelizing the unsaved, and discipling the saved.However, I do not believe that a lack of follow up is the cause of backslidings. I do not believe that you need to follow around a believer or else he will fall away. Sure, he may fall away, backsliding is possible. But if someone decides to sin and then refuse to repent (which is what makes a backslider), then he is responsible for himself, and not any other. He is a backslider because he decided he loved his sin more then his soul; more then Christ, and he refused to obey God. If a man loves his sin, a man calling him to tell him to repent is only going to be an irritation and a frustation. We should certainly witness to a backslider. But the reason people backslide isn't because of a lack of follow-up, it's because they love their sin (usually, though not always, caused by not preaching the Law before grace). You can't put the responsibility of a mans backsliding on any other person other then the backslider.(ps. The name of the thread was just to get attention.)
Jesse, I found this statement very helpful.If he had godly sorrow that lead to repentance, not worldly sorrow which leads to death, he would have repented and started following Christ again as Peter did.Thanks.Having read the whole thread so far, I guess you guys are all saying something close to each other.There is a great deal of truth in this too - that people will believe into the gospel message which was preached to them.I'm not sure how the call to repentance should be tempered with the offer of healing (for sins committed against the person who is coming to the Lord) but, I believe the lack of separating these issues clearly, also leaves new believers weak; it leaves the church weak. One thing which needs to be made clear to those who need healing, at an early stage in discussing their needs with them, is that Jesus died for all sin - including the sin of those who harmed them. The acceptance of this fact speeds up that new believer's ability to move on in God, even if their own deep healing will be on-going for a while to come.On the subject of 'unscriptural' I'd say quite defintely, the Bible does not say that healing is 'in the atonement'. I'm not seeking to sidetrack this thread - was thinking of starting one on this topic myself - but for you preachers who might not read a thread on healing, I commend to you a study on the example Jesus set in this regard, and also, a study in the Old Testament will show that healing..... ?Well now, what does it show? I'll let you investigate for yourselves. :-)I do recognise repentance is the core call which must sound to all.
Sounds good.
My conclusion is this:Discipleship is good if it's with the right person for the right reason.The right person would be a Christian. Someone who is genuinely desiring spiritual growth.The right reason is to build someone up in the faith, not to keep someone in the faith. The basis of a man's salvation must be Christ, not another man.
Um, i was thinking about this.When Christ called the 12 forward, did He call them disciples instantly? (Not as I can remember)And who else did Christ or anyone in the bible call a 'disciple' and WHEN were they called it? (immediatly, or after a period of time)This is my challenge to firmly root what the bible says. (one way or the other).
Lazarus1719 wrote:My conclusion is this:Discipleship is good if it's with the right person for the right reason.The right person would be a Christian. Someone who is genuinely desiring spiritual growth.The right reason is to build someone up in the faith, not to keep someone in the faith. The basis of a man's salvation must be Christ, not another man.When Paul speaks of bearing with the weak brother the context is that of the freedom we have in Christ and the ones conviction thereof. But in your understanding is there such a thing as a weak brother as a weak believer?
What about the relationship between Moses and Joshua?I do believe that community as exemplified by the Acts 2:42 passage is a form of discipleship.Maybe discipleship is a form of mentoring and accountability.I think you might be missing the mark by saying discipleship is unbiblical.
I do believe just leading someone to Christ and not discipling that person is like leaving someone to the wolvesamen.
ps. The name of the thread was just to get attentionoh man don't that no more, I thought you believed that. the bit about discipleship being unbiblical and all.you also wrote: But the reason people backslide isn't because of a lack of follow-up, it's because they love their sin that line might be fine for ole Paris Reidhead, but in my humble opinion, sinners are slaves to their sin. Love has nothing to do with it, it's old time bondage, slavery, chains and the works. There's a blessed Saviour Who takes away the sins of the world, saves the world, Who cuts the chains and frees the captives.forgive me, I'm preaching to the choir, but bro. Jesse, be careful that you don't fall into the trap of spiritual arrogance, any man can fall at any time for any reason. None of us are exempt from that miserable reality.God bless you beloved brother.
Love has nothing to do with itJhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
coz you and I can sit here and indulge in dueling Scripture's till the Rapture...."We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin".Romans 7:14the reason I took exception with the phrase "loving their sin" was because of the way it views the unsaved sinner, it's my heartspace to look at him or her in much the same way we would look at a baby with soiled diapers.I pray to God to help me love better, to love like Jesus. I wish to view unsaved sinners as helpless and harrassed sheep who are slaves to their sin.
The Love, of SIN....... by ellie.Quotes: by PreachParslyJhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.ellie: agree’s to the above.------------------------------------------------ellie say's: God say’s, not all will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.ellie disagrees: with the Quotes: by Neilgin1 written below.Quotes: by Neilgin1but in my humble opinion, sinners are slaves to their sin. Love has nothing to do with it, it's old time bondage, slavery, chains and the works.I wish to view unsaved sinners as helpless and harrassed sheep who are slaves to their sin.the reason I took exception with the phrase "loving their sin" was because of the way it views the unsaved sinner, it's my heartspace to look at him or her in much the same way we would look at a baby with soiled diapers.ellie say’s: It is obvious Neilgin1, that you have not been subjected, to True Evil Wickedness, Loved by the person, who still after 20 years, perpetrates this to as many as that person can. Cunningly, Deceivingly, Planned by Teams and Wickedly Executed by this person and others. Playing Wicked Evil Games on innocent Human Beings, of all ages. Tin soldiers were too boring; they had no life in them.ellie thinks: this next Quote:by Neilgin1 maybe the profile of its writer.Quote: by Neilgin1the trap of spiritual arrogance, any man can fall at any time for any reason.My Prayer.May God have Mercy on those who are ensnared and entrapped by these people? And those who are victims of these people.I live in the knowledge, that in Gods timing, these wicked people will be exposed.Glory To God who doth fight for us. Amen ellie
ellie say’s: It is obvious Neilgin1, that you have not been subjected, to True Evilhow do you know sister?
Did every one skim over my challenge????Um, i was thinking about this.When Christ called the 12 forward, did He call them disciples instantly? (Not as I can remember)And who else did Christ or anyone in the bible, call a 'disciple' and WHEN were they called it? (immediatly, or after a period of time)This is my challenge to firmly root what the bible says. (one way or the other).That's a three-fold question..
When Christ called the 12 forward, did He call them disciples instantly?Luke 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing [their] nets. Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. Luk 5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken: Luk 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men. Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; It depends on what you call instantly.. A chapter after meeeting them he called them Apostles.
I do believe just leading someone to Christ and not discipling that person is like leaving someone to the wolves There are some exceptions :-And when he got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. However Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, "Go home to your friends and tell them the great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you." - Mark 5:18-19 (NKJV)Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. - Acts 8:39 (NKJV)I think both of these conversions were deep enough not to need discipling.PassingThru
discipleship unbiblical?How would you interpret this passageJohn 21:15-19 "Jesus said to Peter . . . feed my lambs ... tend my sheep ... feed my sheep."if this not discipleship then what is discipleship?I believe more Christians are being narrow minded in the term "unbiblical." They tend to focus on the word than the concept behind the word. From my point of view, with the narrow definition of "unbiblical" I would say that all Bible english words we are using are unbiblical. Why? The Bible is in Greek, Hebrew & some portions in Aramaic. You want to be really Biblical? Speak & write in Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic as used in the Bible. Our english Bible remember is a translation of the Bible. If I may put it this way, "discipleship" is the word use to translate the concept of tending & feeding the sheep/lamb.
Hi Roman!If you read the whole post you can see that the original poster clarified his meaning.
Jesse saysThe reason that "discipleship" is not in any bible is because it implies someone is becoming a disciple rather then being a disciple. As soon as someone repents from their sins and believes the gospel they become a disciple. There is no becoming a disciple.I've been away so this is my first contribution to this thread, although I have read it through.“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt. 28:19-20, KJVS)“Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” (Matt. 28:19-20, ASV)“having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days — till the full end of the age.’” (Matt. 28:19-20, YNG)Jesse,if you are objecting to 'discipleship' as a 'method', and particularly as the shepherding method, I am with you. but that is a modern spin on the concept rather than an exposition of the scripture. Please notice, as Youngs makes clear, that the word 'disciple' in this context is a verb and not a noun. The noun might, as you have indicated, point to a crisis in which someone becomes a disciple BUT the verb points very definitely to a process. Youngs translation will focus our attention on the 4 occasions when the verb 'to disciple' is used in the scripture;And he said to them, ‘Because of this every scribe having been discipled in regard to the reign of the heavens, is like to a man, a householder, who doth bring forth out of his treasure things new and old.’ Matt. 13:52 (YNG)¶ And evening having come, there came a rich man, from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also himself was discipled to Jesus, Matt. 27:57 (YNG)having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matt. 28:19 (YNG)Having proclaimed good news also to that city, and having discipled many, they turned back to Lystra, and Iconium, and Antioch, Acts 14:21 (YNG) Each of these references implies a process. Modern evangelistic practice has tended to focus on the crisis of the proclamation, but the biblical pattern makes it plain that the process of discipling men and women to Christ is the real commission. Neil saysthe reason I took exception with the phrase "loving their sin" was because of the way it views the unsaved sinner, it's my heartspace to look at him or her in much the same way we would look at a baby with soiled diapers.This is perfectly in order as long as it is not our only perspective of the unregenerate; soiled diapers don't require repentance, sin does.
PreachParsly wrote:Luke 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing [their] nets. Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. Luk 5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken: Luk 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men. Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; It depends on what you call instantly.. A chapter after meeeting them he called them Apostles. My next question is, what changed from being 'a normal person' to 'being a disciple'. What is classified as a Disciple? And why, as Ron stated, is it also a process?**I'm talking biblical examples, i could care less on personal experiences, unless it brings light TO A SCRIPTURE...thanks**
This thread got me thinking about this passage“As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8:30-32, KJVS) The passage is often reduced to 'the truth shall make you free' but that is a dangerous shorthand. If we unpack the passage we may see it more clearly. First this was addressed to some who, in some measure at least, had believed on Christ. This is often the purpose of the evangelist, to bring people to a point of 'faith in Christ' but this is not sufficient as the narrative indicates. If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; This is a clear 'if-then' clause. 'being a disciple' then is not the consequence of 'having believed on Him' but of 'continuing in His word'. In other words 'believing on Him' might indicate a crisis but 'continuing' in His word indicates a process, and it is the process which created 'the disciple'.And ye shall know the truthIt is only such disciples, who are continuing in His word, that 'will know the truth'. This kind of truth is not available to 'those who have believed on Him' but only to those who 'continue in His word'. This truth then is obviously not academic truth but dynamic truth; not facts but obedience.the truth shall make you free.It is important to follow the flow of ideas here. It is not 'facts' which make men free. It is the truth received by men and women who are in right relationship to Jesus Christ, and right relationship is not guaranteed by the crisis of 'believing' but by the 'process' of abiding in His word.
Wow, amazing. I totally forgot about that verse.Great Ron.
Hi Ron,It is important to follow the flow of ideas here. It is not 'facts' which make men free. It is the truth received by men and women who are in right relationship to Jesus Christ, and right relationship is not guaranteed by the crisis of 'believing' but by the 'process' of abiding in His word.I am currently reading THE CHRISTIAN IN COMPLETE ARMOURwhich is free online for for those who wish to print it out a chapter at a time or so. I am not far into it- maybe 50 pages- but it is very rich and heavy reading. It is one of the major books Leonard Ravenhill recommends. The points the author makes seem to coincide with your previous post. It is a good read for me because I am very big on obedience- while the author demonstrates the necessity of abiding in Christ and His grace in order to do battle and prevail in our attempt to obey. Yet, the enigma I keep facing in all my studies is the relationship between obedience and justification, and obedience and regeneration. This is a clear 'if-then' clause. 'being a disciple' then is not the consequence of 'having believed on Him' but of 'continuing in His word'. In other words 'believing on Him' might indicate a crisis but 'continuing' in His word indicates a process, and it is the process which created 'the disciple'.It seems reasonable that a person must be regenerated in order to "continue in his word" as 'temporal obedience' seems to be evidence that either the person had not been regenerated in the beginning or they had been regenerated and had somehow "fallen from grace." In either case it seems that there is some kind of a relationship between continuing in His word and being a disciple that effects justification. Is this really just an enigmatic soteriological issue- that can never be fully understood? Personally I cannot believe the Finney approach- but nor can I agree with unconditional eternal security. It seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvation- but the scriptures bo not provide for a future assurance of final salvation. The future assurance seems to depend on the whole "if- then" clause. What am I missing here?God Bless
In either case it seems that there is some kind of a relationship between continuing in His word and being a disciple that effects justification. Romans 117 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 51 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:2 By [or, through] whom also we have access by faith Robert,I'm sure there's more to be said about this (by RonB maybe) but it strikes me that the 'continuing' is all too easily viewed from a distance - as if we are outside it (outside those whom we observe, perhaps, thinking they observe us in the same way) whereas my faith in Him is now. It is always now. Now is the only time it matters. This is what connects me to eternity - the I AM - my 'now' believing.Hebrews 313 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; I think that could say 'if we keep holding'.So while a historic moment of first faith does not ensure the next moment of faith, it's a good start. Only after one has been abiding in 'now' faith for a while, might one be described as 'continuing'. What you said hereIt seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvationis spot on.I'm now wondering if there is a difference between a follower and a disciple?
I heard from a respected brother in the Lord, who devoted 3 entire years, *still continuing i hope* to searching the scriptures and dividing the word of Truth. He doesn't believe in the term 'are you saved' but rather says 'I am saved, going to be saved, and in the process of salvation'. The 2nd one he was convicted about. 'Yet to receive salvation' if you look throughout the bible it speaks about 'waiting for IT to come'. why? because it didn't come yet. I don't want to confuse things.And dorcas, your statement I'm now wondering if there is a difference between a follower and a disciple? Is what I've been feeling about this topic, that something was wrong in my spirit, so I instead challenged everyone. That, really, there IS a differance.Here is a thought to ponder. The crowd that followed Jesus, the 'great multitude', Christ said, it WASN'T for them to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom but only for the Disciples. Why? (You might say that some didn't confess Christ, but they were LITERALLY his followers, and SOME had to at least believe)
Is this really just an enigmatic soteriological issue- that can never be fully understood? Personally I cannot believe the Finney approach- but nor can I agree with unconditional eternal security. It seems most accurate to me that we can only have a present assurance of a final salvation- but the scriptures bo not provide for a future assurance of final salvation. The future assurance seems to depend on the whole "if- then" clause. What am I missing here?So we are restating the old question? We are really asking 'once justified, always justified'. Yes?
Here is a thought to ponder. The crowd that followed Jesus, the 'great multitude', Christ said, it WASN'T for them to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom but only for the Disciples. Why? (You might say that some didn't confess Christ, but they were LITERALLY his followers, and SOME had to at least believe)Perhaps one of the clues here is that some words are 'relational'. Disciple is part of a 'matched pair'; you have to have a 'master' in order to have a 'disciple'. The word 'disciple' implies a 'master'; you can never really have 'disciple' on its own. There is a very telling comment from the Pharisees in “Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses’ disciples.” (John 9:28, KJVS) This plainly speaks of relationship. The Pharisees had no doubt seen from some of Christ's statements that he claimed an ultimate authority; "but I say unto you..." (Matt. 5:22,28,32,34,39,44)"crowd' however is not a relational word. You can have crowd without a relationship. It is interesting to see how many 'relationship' words we use without thinking of the implications; believer, child, brother, son, saved, redeemed, servant, slave, apostle, body, Picking up on your comments about 'believers', I always think it is very significant that John never uses the noun 'faith' in his gospel, but speaks of 'the believing ones' ; this is a construct from the verb. "faith" as the children's chorus tells us "is just believing what God says He will do". It is not a static possession to be measured, but a life process. There are several places in John's gospel where it is made plain that there is a kind of 'believing' which God cannot build on.
Hi Ron,So we are restating the old question? We are really asking 'once justified, always justified'. Yes?Yes. I suppose that is the bottom line. God Bless,-Robert
Robertperhaps that should be another thread?or even a return to this one?
1 cor 3 - "What after all is Apollos? And what is Paul ? Only servants through whom you came to believe, as the Lord has assigned to each his task ... I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow ... ""For we are God's fellow workers ... you are God's field, God's building."It's obvious that brother Jessie is a "seed planter."There are others who are "waterers.""but God made it grow" not all Christians grow, though having received the seed not all grow up into discipleshipBaruch
I had posted this way back and thought I'd re-post it in case it ends up getting buried in posts:My conclusion is this:Discipleship is good if it's with the right person for the right reason.The right person would be a Christian. Someone who is genuinely desiring spiritual growth.The right reason is to build someone up in the faith, not to keep someone in the faith. The basis of a man's salvation must be Christ, not another man.
I totally disagree with saying that descipleship is conditional.Now, there were times when Christ took certain people with him, or spoke to certain people. He Called some of his disciples. He took some to the garden of Gethsemane with him.I believe that descipleship is mandatory. Even after open air preaching, a person can be truly repentant, and if they get involved in a church that teaches false doctrines, that person might be led in wrong directions.I believe you should have one hand forward and one back at all times. Someone who is your mentor, and at least one who you are mentoring. Elders in a church should be involved with the younger generations, or with those who may someday be an elder or deacon. At the same time, it can help to have someone who is your teacher. Now, don't replace that with spending time in the Word and prayer. You must be diligent in your own study. But every person needs accountability, and should have someone to keep pushing them along.Grace and Peace...