What Kind of Counsel?

This passage has really stayed with me as I read it a few months ago. I have had my share of needing biblical counsel and I know many who also have need of it. I have always found it interesting that our flesh would like a "counselor" who will let us off the hook, or justify our actions. Yet, if we want to grow and change into His likeness, then we will want the truth. We will want to know what God says about our hearts, our actions and our emotions. This is why I have enjoyed studying Nouthetic Counseling.In Him, Chanin---------------------What kind of counsel do you desire?-The disciple who honestly seeks to let God remold his mind will direct his energies not to sorting out the exceptions, loopholes, or fine points of the law, but to a total surrender of obedient love.The disciplined Christian will be very careful what sort of counsel he seeks from others. Counsel that contradicts the written Word is ungodly counsel. Blessed is the man that walketh not in that.Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface. His interpretation of the secrets revealed may be more palatable than that which the person would have found for himself on the pages of the Bible, for the Word is "...sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13Throughout our earthly lives...we will accept the solutions, answers, and escapes that the world offers (and there are plenty of those), or the radical alternative shown to the mind attuned to Christ's. The ways of the world exalt themselves against God. They sometimes look rational and appealing to the most earnest disciple, but Christ says to us (as He said to his disciples long ago when they had given up), "Do you also want to leave Me?" Hopefully we will answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Your words are words of eternal life".-Elisabeth Elliot (Discipline: The Glad Surrender)

You wrote: The person is likey to choose a counselor who will listen "nonjudgementally" to his story and perhaps make light of or dismiss as unwarrentd whatever guilt feelings come to the surface. No truer words were ever spoken.Thanks for posting this. Elizabeth Elliot has a gift of cutting to the core issue of whatever matter is discussed.ginnyrose

Excellent Chanin,It exposes us for what we really are. Nothing in all creation can hide from him. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. This is the God to whom we must explain all that we have done." Heb.4:12-13Very much find this verse embedded and is in one sense the measuring line of everything that comes alongside it, in our thoughts, in "application" of how we approach scripture, if we are to be teachable. The thoughts that we may be measuring by our own preconceived ideas, if it "fit's" what we already think we might know, instead of it's opposite, submitting even that to the test.And that can be tricky enough as it is, the tendency is to still measure from our angle, not the Lords. Not sure if this fit's rightly here or not but have found it a season of much difficulty in prayer. The first is in this not so curious "resistance" to stop the carnal mind of enmity against the Lord from getting to the place of prayer in the first place. It's the "I ought to be praying, I want to be praying...but I don't feel like praying, would rather do ______" And that can be well intentioned (possibly), reading scripture, a Christian Classic, a book on prayer :-? !!This may seem dissimilar to what you have presented here yet it seems to be much the same in Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.Would have to add Pray to the list.The sheer stupidity in it all is that if we could just discipline ourselves, make ourselves do some things that the flesh recoils at there can be great blessing in it. There is a getting through in prayer even when it is a struggle and that may not be on the timetable we imagine... it could take days, BUT that may be because of one problem itself, and though I know this all too well, the reality and the difficulty could be summed up in just this:Learning how to just shut up.Everything is always clamoring for attention, not only the outward things, but the noise generated in our own heads. What we 'think' we know, what we apt to jump to conclusions on, what we attempt to rationalize or dismiss, even before the Lord in prayer. The question that keeps begging for an answer is "What is it that you want?" And that is in the sense of ultimately, at the very core of our being. The present needs and specifics for whatever circumstances being set aside for the moment to get at a more pressing consideration. "What" or "Who" is it that we are seeking? I cannot think of any higher 'gift' to seek after than God's thought on the matter at hand, which is His will, not in general but in specific, at this moment in time, in this moment of prayer. And to be able to hear anything at all is to shut up everything to be able to hear, not merely listen. To lay everything, every thought, good, bad and indifferent at His feet and be silent. It is a mighty thing sometimes to get there, to a place of utter quietness and silence before Him, but it can be done, it just may take the time and effort to wrestle with ourselves or wrestle it out of ourselves.Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Oh, for this in our prayers. How can we receive any counsel whatsoever from the Lord without it? Is it not the very essence of "Denying yourself"?This is not to open ourselves up to just any old thing in a sort of mystical sense, but purposefully before Him, to "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." Psa 46:10When you can get there, to this place of silence, it is rather amazing what you might find. Often it is in the praise and worship that comes forth even if in the struggle before hand you may have been vexed with any number of troubles, concerns, whatever emotions that had to be subdued. And peace, the rest from fighting against Him, against your own self, the greatest enemy there is. Then it seems we can truly pray and truly intercede for others, gain a truer perspective of ourselves and a clearer understanding of the Lord.The answer personally to the big question from the Lords perspective, "What is it that you want"?Keeps coming back to;Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. That's not mere flowery speech, but from the depths, to be able to share and give back out of the substance of what can only come from Him. It seems an impossibility to share that which we have not received, not from a storehouse of knowledge but from the Counselor Himself. To be clear, what I have found is that getting to this place of silence will bring forth that which has already been absorbed into the spirit, the verses that come to mind, that spring up after everything has been laid down, not that have been sized up before hand. The perception gets altered and you find you can learn something more so that you are willing to learn and willing to let go, willing to see things in a different light...Oh, could go on endlessly with this. Gain silence with the Lord, it's worth every ounce of effort.

Thanks Annie :)here is another good link www.Nanc.org The article page is : http://www.nanc.org/page.asp?contentid=46&sub=7#articlesIn Him, Chanin

Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord, fearing what He will say: Confess. Turn around. Quit that indulgence. Do not pity yourself. Forgive that person. Pay back what you owe. Apologize. Tell the truth. Deny yourself. Consider the other's well-being. Lay down your life.Sometimes a person knows well what his trouble is and for this very reason has not consulted the Lord. This I have continued to experience in my life. What I know from the Holy Scripture is that which I fear. Jesus paints a picture of a person who learns from Him. I fear dieing to self. I fear loosing this life. And according to Scripture, I know that:1John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. I have experienced at times this precept. The work of grace in my life has released me from various things which bind me. It is this love that overcomes my fears. Yet I know that there is much more to come. My heart is not even like Peter's when he said he was willing to drink from the same cup as Jesus would soon do. The Lord said at that time that there would come a day that Peter would willingly drink from the same cup.Faith is the substance of what I have been given to hope for. The counsel of the Lord by the Holy Spirit has given me the evidence of the faithfulness of God to conform me into the image of His Son. When I have submitted to His leading, the evidence of His faithfulness is beyond doubt. It has been good, very good. This substance of His grace causes me to rest from that which I once strived for foolishly. Thinking like the woman at the well, that a man or this world will bring satisfaction, Jesus through the Holy Spirit causes me to seek for His living water. Yet, I still seek in many ways to satisfy this thirst with water that is of this world. As I seek the water of this world, fear is it's evidence. This I know. God bless ChaninIn ChristJeff

After I reread this piece again, I was reminded of a verse in Psa. 1:1:Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of the scoffers! (NASB)And that means the likes of Ann Landers or Dear Abby? I have been convicted on this issue...how many take their advice for life from persons such as this? After I quit reading these advice columns, and read it again, I was shocked....ginnyrose

Alot of Elisabeth Elliot's writings, as well as Nancy DeMoss's writings have been a huge influence on me and has produced much conviction and confirmation that has spurred me on to grow and change.Here is an excellent piece on Godly counsel by Nancy DeMoss (from "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free")+++"In spite of all the talk about poor self-image, our instinctive reaction to life is self-centered: How does this affect me? Will this make me happy? Why did this have to happen to me? What does she think about me? It's my turn. Where's my share? Nobody cares about my ideas. He hurt my feelings. I've got to have some time for me. I need my space. He's not sensative to my needs.It's not enough for us to be the center of our own universe. We want to be the center of everyone else's universe as well--including God's. In his book Finding God, Dr. Larry Crabb offers a penetrating analysis of the extent to which the evangelical church has given in to this deception: "Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are. Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming... We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God. Feeling better has become more important than finding God... As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ into a basis for honoring ourselves rather than seeing those truths for what they are: the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else. ...We have rearranged things so that God is now worthy of honor because He has honored us. "Worthy is the Lamb", we cry, not in response to His amazing grace, but because He has recovered what we value most: the ability to like ourselves. We now matter more than God." Paul understood that God does not exhist for us, but that we exhist for Him:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." col.1:16"...nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." acts 20:24 The bottom line for Paul was: "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." Once that was settled, nothing else mattered much." --Nancy DeMoss

Have you ever tried beginning with the worship? Launching yourself out into the praise by an act of will and continuing until the Spirit catches you up?When it's honest, yes. But ... as a discipline to wrestle away from my own thoughts whether that may come or not.. not thinking of any particular expectations in this particular manner, just to be still. The other question is, have you ever tried getting to the place of silence from praying out loud...? I mean, by saying what's on your heart - all the thoughts and considerations - and just listen and home in on the points which the Spirit quickens to you, and keep homing in until there is that silence? Surely at times, as you mentioned and generally the car, but even without the vocal chords (Difficult with others in the house at an early hour as you also mentioned) there is the unburdening of all these things and often the wonderful sense of silence that just takes over, hadn't thought of it as something to work up to and don't think that is what you are stating perhaps, but it just seems to happen... It's a little different line of thought I may have been trailing, another way would be, what of Gods silence? Just to be in His Presence.Your spirit in fellowship with His Spirit knows the answer.... it just needs to be communicated to your thinking brain.Referring back to the "What is it that you want?" Was thinking out loud there maybe without clarification. It is something that will come up often in prayer. It's both a question of my own generating and would like to think from the Holy Spirit as well. It's to ask an honest question of what is it that I am seeking? This is where it may tie in with the next well said statements that Chanin brought forth. (Briefly, hesitated putting this into this thread here in the first place, would prefer it didn't distract from the areas it touched on, will try something different elsewhere)It does come back to seeking something purely for ourselves and our self interests. That is the "Big question". Surely it varies, but often it's in asking that in an honest matter that I find I really don't "want" anything at all ..."Wantless". Again, tricky. There is many things I do want. I want to know Him as he in fact is. (Katz). I want to know nothing but Jesus as He is not as I might have wrongly perceived Him. I want to understand and I want for instance those here, all of us to understand so they might help me understand better and turn it around and give it right back again. But asking that question also makes one realize just what it is that matters. It isn't what's in my best interest, but what is Gods, better, what is it that He wants? Of me? Of us? And sometimes I can't help but think He would like us to just shut up and listen, :-) That without any particular expectation, just to be in His Presence. It's quite interesting to think on that verse in Revelation...

Chanin,Again, this is so on the mark. Felt it a diservice to start taking quotables out of it. What an apt description. Sorry for the interuptions prior, hope this get's well read.Only the title seems misleading; "Lies Women Believe: and the truth that sets them free". Women? ;-)

Changed my mind, had thought of moving this reply and realized how disjointed it would have been, so I withdrew the effort and put back the original... In other words, never mind....To clarify what I said earlier a little further, it is O Chambers who encourages us to do things differently for the good of our soul - not to be a slave to routine or to have a pet way of doing things practical or spiritual, such that the rut prevents us from being touchable.Oh with much certainty! There are many thoughts from OC that have been driven deep down into the marrow, one that rises to the top is "How unconventional!"also credited with 'if the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'; and I think this is what I was trying to get at by suggesting you take the offensive. I do realise it isn't easy, but, like eating any elephant, it has to be cut into smaller pieces (sorry for very old analogy) and I've put a few suggestions in Eli's old thread 'More than Conquerors'.As OC says, the moment one finds oneself 'disinclined' that is the moment to STOP EVERYTHING ELSE and deal with it before God. Listen, I know I'm preaching to the converted.... Just want to encourage you there is a breakthrough point... It's just a matter of keeping on pushing until you hit it. Think we are both touching on different aspects, this being a multi-faceted Diamond. There is an aspect of Paul's; "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1Co 9:26,27 on the one hand that may be applicable here, applying it to this "being still" (Interesting how this keeps coming up)On the other hand there is the wrestling of Jacob, "Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." Gen 32:26Funny how these can criss-cross, just prior to this was, "When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him." Gen 32:25 Decommissioned in the flesh and yet "I am not going anywhere", still holding on. Not sure I am making any sense whatsoever here, perhaps thats where the whole exercise elsewhere was heading, that of prayerlessness and of silence, of listening and truly hearing ... if there is any goal in it at all it would be to just to get us praying.

This bit of the quote really bothers me, because people can't help arriving in church with these difficulties.I don't think that is what is being stated here. Nancy seems to be putting her finger on the matter with; "... has become the central mission of the church. " and "...absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming..."Look at the verbiage in just that one paragraph, it's telling; "Our", "Self" these are the things that she rightly points out that a large part of Christendom has become... "Your best life now" It's the theme of the age. {*EDIT ~ Was just convicted of this as I was listening to a message from Ernest O'Neill, surely disagree with the philosophy, but the slight was wrong, I recant it, irregardless of motives. http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/ } It would be just as much an error to have no compassion, but I don't think that is what is being spoken of, the emphasis is on coddling sinners and not telling the truth, the greater insult is "We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service."As a result, we happily camp on biblical ideas that help us feel loved and accepted, and we pass over the scripture that calls us to higher ground. We twist wonderful truths about God's acceptance, His redeeming love, and our new identity in Christ into a basis for honoring ourselves rather than seeing those truths for what they are: the stunning revelation of a God gracious enough to love people who hated Him, a God worthy to be honored above everyone and everything else. Very much think she is right, the emphasis is upside down. Had started musing yesterday on this thought;"Honoring the King"Just the implications and what that used to mean. Perhaps another thread altogether.

Hi guys,There are many interesting responses here and I don't have time to get to each individual thing that deserves attention.Mike you are right in saying that it is NOT just women who believe lies :-) . I think some one should write a similar book for men. Actually I do know of one that is pretty close to it and it is called "God's Gift to Women" by Eric Ludy- it dispels the lie of the "brotherhood"- what men have grown up believing is real manhood and reveals what God intends real manhood to be- LIKE CHRIST.I have had my own set of "issues" from the past. I have experienced rejection and pain in my past and have gone through the whole gamut of healing, forgiveness and all of that.O, how do I want to say what I want to say?Here are the words that come to me:accepting responsiblitybeing obedientnot making excuses-and the opposite of these:transferance(blaming others for our problems and mistakes)This is where much counsel takes a wrong turn. It creates "victims". Yes, I have had a bad past. I could blame many of my problems and my actions and attitudes even now (my perfectionist tendancies, the way I treat my husband, my controlling behavior,etc... on how my past effected me.But I won't and don't use excuses. I am responsible for what I know now. If I know something is wrong- then I better do my darndest to let the Lord change me in that area. "Look at Joseph, you talk about a person that was abused and betrayed. At the age of sixteen or seventeen, he was just a kid. His whole family was messed up. You talk about a co-dependent family! His brothers threw him in a pit, soaked his coat in blood, then sold him to traders, who carried to Egypt as a slave, where he was betrayed by Potiphar’s wife, then he's sent to prison, he’s forgotten by the butler, but in all of this he says God was with him.And when he had opportunity to revenge himself with his brothers, he had a fabulous statement to make, "you meant this for evil, but God meant this for good." Joseph had Single Vision, he saw that God meant it for good. Was he a victim? He knew he was victimized, but he knew he stood there by the grace of God and that God had worked through him and through his brothers and through all of those who had abused him for his good and for His glory. Joseph did not see himself as a victim." -Gene Veal(Single Vision Counseling) Because of sin in this world, people in all eras have had terrible tragic lives. But guess what? God still expected obedience and worship. Joseph did that. I am not saying God doesn't have compassion or that we should not have compassion. I think that when we go through certain experiences (which were allowed by God maybe for this very reason) is so that we can have compassion on those who have had similar experiences.The tragedys of Joseph's life were not an accident. God knew what He was doing and what He was planning. He was molding Joseph and He is molding us and creating all kinds of opportunities for us, when we experience pain and rejection, etc... God does everything He does to bring Himself glory.I look back now on my life as a child and young person and I wouldn't change anything. I am who I am today because of my hardships, because I've let God use these things for His good. I can understand people when they feel rejection and I know why they do the things they do. I am drawn to them- to want to help them and bring Truth to them. I know I fall short, but as much as I've been able, I have refused to live as a victim and allow myself to use my rejection and pain as excuses for wrong attitudes and wrong behavior.Seeing ourselves as a victim leads to self pity. O, what a mess we get ourselves into then!There are a couple of wonderful articles at SingleVision Counseling site. A Victim No longerSelf PityWe can look to Jesus as our example:"Whenever your flesh would call itself a victim, if you’ll walk in the Spirit of Christ who you really are, Christ does not have a problem with being a victim. Was there anyone ever victimized as Christ was on the cross? For your sin, not his. You don’t hear Jesus crying he’s a victim. No, he says, if you take up your cross and follow him, you’ll lay down your life for another. Not as a victim at all.""How do we deal with it? The Bible says lay it aside. 'Not my will, but thine be done' is the Christ attitude. The result of referring to what’s happened to you, by referring to yourself as a victim, can result in irresponsibility." -Gene Veal (Single Vision)In Him, Chanin

Chanin,Your testimony proves exactly what I have believed for a long time after counseling females in a crises pregnancy. Far too many people are looking for something that satisfies their inner self, making them feel good. People have been so blinded by this absorption with self that they cannot think outside the box. All they think about is me, me, me, I, I,....In actuality they are guilty of violating the first of the ten commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Meaning they are more interested in serving self then in God and if God can fix it, fine, 'I will allow him to come alongside of me and see if he can fix it' without surrendering their hearts and minds to the One who so longs to come in and make his abode with him/her. In a lot of cases people want to continue in sin without repenting BUT want to CANCEL the consequences of that lifestyle. This is the heart of most people who have been damaged by a sinful lifestyle, either theirs or anothers. We have had women in our church who say they have been victims of abuse and belabored this pass. They say they want help, and we continued to listen and offered advice and love. And they continued their spiel of woe. Now we are beginning to believe they are rebellious people and are shifting blame onto others for their problems. Lies women believe? Yes, this is one of them: "I have been abused." Males, less they are accused of being uncaring, etc, have capitulated and helped no one. Ditto, to the older and wise women. Am I harsh? Sounds like it. The reality is that we have allow rebellious females manipulate the rest of us. To redeem this victim mentalality will require people to stand up and call it what it is and not allow these people to control the group they are a part of. Now to the ones who really are victims of abuse, there is help and it must be given by a loving church family. And it will be done. But you must want help and that includes a complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and ASSUMING responcibilty for your own life AND actions and quit the blaming game. Anything less will never work and the rest of us help no one if we work contrary to this.Likely, there will be people who will believe I have never been abused; don't know what I am talking about; everything always went fine with me. The answer to that is 'no' it has not. But I quit blaming when I realized that on judgement day God is going to hold me accountable for my own actions and to shift blame onto others will never be accepted by Him.ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,yes, I agree. I can use my own life once again as an example. Some of you read recently about my husband's affair this year. I can tell you that it is one long process of "not my will, but Thy will be done". I mean, of course there was the initial dying to self and the forgiveness, etc... but as time goes on there is still so much more that I need to die to every day.It would be so easy to use excuses for harsh tones and uncaring behavior. I mean, I have every right to treat my husband a little badly once in awhile after what he did to me, right? NO. It is so easy to say to myself "I deserve" a little something for what he put me through.I have to fight my flesh that wants to bring old things back up- because "I can". I choose to renew my mind. I choose to obey the Lord.Of course, I have failed a time or two. Sometimes my flesh gets the best of me and I let self pity get to me and then it's all down hill from there for half the day. But I am the one that chose to sit there and let my mind wander back to "it's not fair", "how could he", I don't deserve". But it's sin and it's wrong and it only makes matters much worse for myself and my family.If I would have taken the counsel of most friends and family members, I would never be where I am now with this. They want to let me off the hook, let me have some lee-way. Give me excuses to do what I want, to listen to my feelings, to let me be persuaded by my feelings. That is why I let God and His word be my counselor. He is sufficient for all counsel.The Lord knows I was hurt. I know He cares. But I also know that He says HE is enough for me. That I am to put my trust in HIM and He will take care of me. I can't put my trust in my feelings or my unmet needs.I am responsible for me. For my behavior and my obedience. I am not responsible for my husband's. I am not responsible for my parent's behavior/obedience or lack of it. I am responsible for me.And like you said, Ginny, I will stand one day before the judgement seat and be held accountable for ME.In Him, Chanin

Here is some more from Elisabeth Elliot's "Discipline:The Glad Surrender". This is from the chapter on 'The Discipline of the Mind'."A renewed mind has an utterly changed conception, not one of reality, but of possibility. A turn away form the kingdom of this world to the kingdom of God provides a whole set of values basd not on the human word, but on Christ's. Impossibilities become possibilities.The worldly mind says, "Look, I am human. Don't expect me to love that woman, not after what she did to my family. It's impossible."The word of Christ is, "Love your enemies. Do good to them that hate you." This is indeed impossible, as it was impossible for Peter to walk on the sea, until he obeyed the command. The mind made over from within begins to think Christ's thoughts after Him.The natural mind prefers argument to obedience, solutions to truth. It's immediate response, when the truth is presented, is no. No way. It refuses to be nailed by the truth.The disciple who means to compel every one of his thoughts to surrender in obedience to Christ would do well to test himself by asking:Whose glory do I seek?Is this for or against the knowledge of God?Is it more important to me to understand than to obey?Is it more important to to me to know that to believe?Do I reject a particular truth because it will inconvenience me?"-E.Elliot

Thank you Chanin, Ginnyrose.I look back now on my life as a child and young person and I wouldn't change anything. I am who I am today because of my hardships, because I've let God use these things for His good. I can understand people when they feel rejection and I know why they do the things they do. I am drawn to them- to want to help them and bring Truth to them. Would concur wholeheartedly.

Chanin,Your testimony ought to be distributed far and wide. When we recognize that I, only me am responcible for my own sin[s], that God will only hold me accountable for me it will make all the difference in the world in how I view life and my difficulties. Jesus died for ME, and expects ME to bring MY sins to the cross and find redemption there for ME. I can not do it for another, much as I would like. To soft pedal my sin[s] or anyone else's for that matter will never help anyone. If you want to experiemce deliverance you must take charge of your own life, surrender it to Jesus and then you will get the deliverance you so earnestly desire. Chanin, you said it so beautifully. God bless you, my dear. With your attitude, I think you will make it because Jesus is there to render you assistance...after all He is more interested in you then you are..Is this not awesome? we serve a wonderful God, do we not?! ginnyrose

I think I am going to have to buy this book. E. Elliot says it like it is. I love it!ginnyrose

Lahry, you have brought up some wonderful points!!It is truly time to stop talking about God and to start being like JesusI'm so sick of me I could scream. I'm so lazy I'm not worth the price of a bullet to put me out of my misery. Thank God, it's not over yet. There is still precious little time to submit, surrender, to go to the cross and die, that I might live. I have felt this way many times!!!!!!! I can so relate!He said, "no greater love hath a man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend". Our lives must be invested in others, their physical and spiritual welfare. There is so much more to being a christian, than just talking about it. We must come to a place of being, not just believing. Amen! I cannot tell you how many times this past year or 6 months that the Lord has brought situations to me and his question is 'will you lay your life down?" Even if it is just for someone in your own home, maybe it is for your in-laws, maybe a neighbor, or maybe some in need. But He has made it so clear to me that it is not just about laying down our "lives" as we think about what a life is- but about what our "lifestyle" is. Will we lay down our comforts, our desires- things that make up our own life.I thank the Lord for you Lahry and for bringing us in contact with Troy. You are right, he is the real deal. I thought it was awesome that he used to have a church and he said the Lord told him to go out into the streets to preach and help those who are the 'least of these'.What a concept! BE THE CHURCH, not just go to church or pastor a church! :-) I wish more people could see this.Dan (my husband) is still in weekly contact with Troy and is still doing what he can to give some help. I think we may have started something that my husband is now addicted to :-P He cannot wait until he can go back down there to help rebuild or whatever needs to be done.But whether you help Troy or whether you go to Southern Mexico- the Lord will be with you. I pray that the Lord will direct you and lead you to go where and when He wants. May He open up a door for you so you will know.Reading John Piper's book, "Don't Waste Your Life" has made such an impact on my life lately."I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work." Jn 9:4"Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."–Eph. 5:16 In Him, Chanin

May I suggest you may be in the centre of God's will now and you will know what and where to do and go, if so be God has a different plan for you?I agree. The Lord will give you the revelation and the wisdom to make a move when it's time. :-) In Him, Chanin

I apologize to come in so late, but I want to highlight something that is not often addressed in our churches. I believe that it touches on what has been discussed, but also that it goes a bit further. It deals with LISTENING and UNDERSTANDING what the Holy Spirit tells us.“It's not enough for us to be the center of our own universe. We want to be the center of everyone else's universe as well--including God's. In his book Finding God, Dr. Larry Crabb offers a penetrating analysis of the extent to which the evangelical church has given in to this deception: "Helping people to feel loved and worthwhile has become the central mission of the church. We are learning not to worship God in self-denial and costly service, but to embrace our inner child, heal our memories, overcome addictions, lift our depressions, improve our self-images, establish self-preserving boundaries, substitute self-love for self-hatred, and replace shame with an affirming acceptance of who we are. Recovery from pain is absorbing an increasing share of the church's energy. And it is alarming... We have become committed to relieving the pain behind our problems rather than using our pain to wrestle more passionately with the character and purpose of God. Feeling better has become more important than finding God...”Paul understood that God does not exist for us, but that we exist for Him: "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." col.1:16. "...nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God." acts 20:24 . The bottom line for Paul was: "TO LIVE IS CHRIST." Once that was settled, nothing else mattered much." --Nancy DeMossThese quotes reflect truth, but there remains a problem. Knowing all that, being taught all that, etc., etc, may still leave somebody in bondage. Sometimes more is needed. Example: a number of years ago I (together with a lady from the church I attended at the time), counseled a Christian lady who had been systematically sexually abused for a number of years. Did she love Jesus? Yes, otherwise she would have ended her life. Did she receive proper counsel? No, for she was still tormented. Did she know that she had to “crucify self and that Jesus was All in All?” Yes, but she was still tormented.After we had seen her twice, she called again. During the time she called the Lord gave me a word. Did I run over to tell her the word? No, it was given so we could finally get to the real issue. There were three sexual spirits who physically oppressed her at night. Only through the “word of knowledge,” could we insist and persist until the truth came out. This was so immensely embarrassing for this lady that she couldn’t say it, she had written it down and it took three hours of patiently and lovingly insisting that “there was something else,” before she finally got the letter out of her bedroom and gave it to me. The church is full of well-meaning but judgmental Christians. How does one tell as a Christian – many denominations don’t even accept this possibility – that one is tormented in this way? It is so sad, because one simple prayer and a command in the “Mighty, All Powerful Name of Jesus,” set this lady free, after many counselors, churches, and who knows what else. We don’t have all the answers, but Praise God, we have a Savior Who Does!If we’d only learned to obey, AND listen.

Lahry, Here is a scripture that has challenged me so much: Isaiah 8:12-14a: You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!' In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy. And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it. It is the LORD of Hosts whom you should regard as holy. And he shall be your fear. And he shall be your dread. Then he will become a sanctuary.....(NASB) (Sorry if this translation offends you..). Perhaps this can help you with your fear. I understand this is talking about conspiracies, however, do not most fears depend on uncertainities? This then means we must learn to discern the voice of the Spirit in affairs of life and if questions remain about this all we need to do is ask Jesus to teach you to be able to discern his voice, discern between your thoughts and His voice. When you get this it will give you courage unlike you ever have had before.God bless you in your walk with Him,ginnyrose

Last week I posted under Forum Revival Prayer: If you think this is useful, WILL YOU? Reading through this thread and a number of the posts, I cannot help wonder why so few SI members responded to this question? Paul, in these two prayers, gives us a clear direction to More Of Him, a clear and concise expression of Who Christ is at the same time asking the Father to make it clear to us, SO THAT CHRIST MAY BE FORMED IN US. In Ephesians 2:10 Paul tells us: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.What better way to “according to His will,” ask Him to open the door, so we may walk through it to do the good works He has prepared for us in Christ Jesus. You may not believe this, but God actually does exactly that. He opens the door, and He prepares you for His service. Sometimes it may take quite a long time, if so, then wait IN HIM.

What better way to “according to His will,” ask Him to open the door, so we may walk through it to do the good works He has prepared for us in Christ Jesus. You may not believe this, but God actually does exactly that. He opens the door, and He prepares you for His service. Sometimes it may take quite a long time, if so, then wait IN HIM.Wow! Hans, What timely words for me. I just finished this thread, not planning to respond to it - till I got to these words at the very end of it all. This is just what is happening to me. He opened a door:For a while now, I have been trying to understand the issue of homosexuality and trying to learn how we as Christians can help. In spite of many unhelpful words from Christians, God has not failed to teach me and guide me. I kept on trying to learn, even though there are no homosexuals directly in my life. Well, just four days ago, I got an email from a lady who found me through the web, and she poured out all her pain and grief, and shame that has resulted because she just discovered that her daughter was a homosexual and had hidden it for ten years. She shared how she couldn't talk about it with anyone in the church. (That doesn't surprise me!)Anyway - this mom is truly broken. She has committed herself to Christ and is allowing him to work in her own life - break down her pride and unhealed areas. This is rapidly shaping into a truely touching story of God's merciful hand. As I minister to this mother, and encourage her in her relationship with God, I know that she will be able to minister wisely to her daughter, and the barriers will be broken down. True healing is a work of God, and we are merely his servants preparing our lives to obey him at any time in the ministry of counsel and edification. As we are prepared, he will bring the broken to us. Diane

I know this is kind of getting this thread off track but.....Lahry,Bless your heart!!! I am so glad that you had a chance to go and "be the church" :-). Isn't it amazing that you finally got to meet Pastor Troy in person? I mean, even the fact that my husband and daughter got to meet up with him, through you, through me through Sermonindex! Only God can do that! What divine appts. He is making.What you wrote about helping with the diapers- it so reminded me of Oswald Chamber's biography where he was explaining about the annual Camp meeting they were doing. One thing that remains with us long as we live was not the preaching, not the meetings, nor the marches, nor the testimonies (these were grand) but the splendid, supereffacing service of the students who waited tables, washed the dishes, erected tents, pulled them down and DID THE DRUDGERY. Their lives for 10 days were one unbroken testimony to the blessing of God and to one at least, the impression grew strong, that if our Lord was here, He would still again be hidden and obscure as ONE WHO SERVED.Praise God!In Him, Chanin

Oh, I forgot.... I LOVED the story about Pastor Troy and the police! What a hoot! I can just see it all right now. :-) In Him, Chanin

She shared how she couldn't talk about it with anyone in the church. (That doesn't surprise me!)It doesn't surprise me either. I think the majority of churches (in America at least)ignore masses of hurting broken people. This is why there are so many Christians seeking counsel from secular avenues, because the church refuses to deal with it. The one quote from Larry Crabb, (whom I have alot of respect for) indicated that this seems to be the whole mission of today's church. I'm sorry but I just don't see it. Yes they are preaching feel good messages but they are still ignoring real issues in the lives of people. I'm not sure if they just don't want to deal with it or if they just don't know how. Compassion is required to minister to hurting people. This means being touched with the feeling of their infirmities. Are we not willing to do this? Does it rehash unresolved issues in our own lives that we have stuffed and kept in darkness rather than bringing it to his light where healing can begin. I made a post yesterday in the Healing who gets it thread on Luke 4:18 which I am going to repost a portion of here because I think many missed it because the thread had fizzled.The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruisedbroken=to crush completely, to shatter, break in pieces and shivers, to bruise.heart carries the idea of.....thoughts, feelings, and mind, which to me would represent the soul.I find it intriguing that Jesus specifically referred to this healing as part of his purpose.This kind of healing is usually a process rather than an event. Think about this shattering leading to shivers. These shivers may be buried deep and in various places. Some may surface quickly and be dealt with and others may take some time to surface. Perhaps some event will cause a shiver to surface or it may be that our compassionate, patient physician is waiting for us to mature and grow in trust and dependency on Him so that he can begin to dig around and cleanse those tender areas.Diane wrote The church is full of well-meaning but judgmental Christians. How does one tell as a Christian – many denominations don’t even accept this possibility – that one is tormented in this way? It is so sad, because one simple prayer and a command in the “Mighty, All Powerful Name of Jesus,” set this lady free, after many counselors, churches, and who knows what else. We don’t have all the answers, but Praise God, we have a Savior Who Does! If we’d only learned to obey, AND listen.It deals with LISTENING and UNDERSTANDING what the Holy Spirit tells us.This is key. Look at the various ways Jesus healed blind people. I think this was to show us not to get hung up on methods. There are endless circumstances that could lead to a person being shattered in the heart. Two individuals who may have experienced similar circumstances causing their brokenness may arrive at their healing by different avenues or methods but the Who (Jesus) it comes through will be the same.

This means being touched with the feeling of their infirmities. Are we not willing to do this? Does it rehash unresolved issues in our own lives that we have stuffed and kept in darkness rather than bringing it to his light where healing can begin.I think this is the issue. We cannot minister to the infirmities (vulnerability) of others until we have been sufficiently broken. I've seen this over and over again. Those who have been through the pain of the healing process, can relate, and are not so prone to judge and give unrealistic solutions. While taking counseling courses can be of great value, and while professionals are needed, there is a very, very deep need for an ongoing context of trusting relationship. The latest Barna Statistic reveals that most evangelicals feel they are doing well in this area of relationship. If their self-perception was true, we would be witnessing an incredible massive healing of broken hearts and broken relationships within our churches and communities. My how self-deluded we are!!!! May God do whatever it takes to break us out of our mass denial. Diane(P.S.,HopeinChrist, I do not claim that last quote you made, but I sure agree with it)

I've seen this over and over again. Those who have been through the pain of the healing process, can relate, and are not so prone to judge and give unrealistic solutions.It depends on what you mean by unrealistic solutions. I have been broken many times over and been through an excruciating healing process (with the help of the Lord and His word alone). Yet much of my counsel seems 'judgemental' or unrealistic to alot of people.I think that it is beneficial to have those who have experienced pain and suffering and brokenness to help those who are hurting, but it doesn't have to be that way. It takes a compassionate heart, someone with a heart like Jesus and knows the Truth of His word.I told this to Dorcas in a pm, but when I went through my healing process, I left the church system because I could discern that they wanted to counsel me in a 'humanistic' way. They wanted to give me excuses and lead me down the wrong path. I wanted the truth- even if it hurt. I wanted to be healed the right way, the way God intended. So I left and I let God Himself be my counselor. He was and He did. Seeing Him for who He really was for the first time, seeing my heart for what it was, seeing that I was clinging to worthless idols (yes, becuase i had been hurt, but once you know that, there is no excuse), I just held onto him and obeyed each step of the way. That's what it took.Jesus was broken, He knows what pain, suffering, and rejection is like- how did He react? He said 'not My will but thine be done'. I know that people who need healing don't know this, but they can be taught this. Hurting people can be taught how to recieve healing in a biblical way. We just have to give them the truth, not the truth mixed with man's ideas and phsychology too.Just because someone has not been through a person's exact situation, or been broken to the extreme that they have does not mean that they won't be able to counsel them. They just need to to know the truth of the word and know Jesus intimately. Of course it helps, no doubt. I see from my own tragedys and experiences that i can discern and see a hurting person from a long way off- but my counsel would still be the same counsel God gave me- and yes, it does seem unrealistic to many, but God is not realistic. He is sovereign and Holy.There is no other reason in the world that I could be speaking a couple of times a week to the 'other' women (the girl who my husband had an affair with). The Lord has given me the opportunity to share His love and light with her. To even be her friend and try to counsel her with her own marriage. To the human person this is impossible, it is unrealistic that I should forgive her so soon and even try to befriend her and help her. But Jesus asks that i lay my life down. He asks :will I give up my own comforts and feelings in order that she may be saved and she may have life. I cannot say 'no'. And after I took the step of obedience, my heart was filled with compassion for her. He did it. I just prayed for the strength to obey. I don't see her as the 'other' woman. I see her as a sinner needing a savior. I see her as a hurting person needing Jesus.This is the kind of counsel I receive from the Word and from the Lord. To many, if I was to counsel comeone this way, it would seem like I was harsh or judging them or unrealistic. I am just obeying the Lord.In His love, Chanin

We were talking about ministry, and he related the following about a recent trip to Los Angeles, his home town. He said they were on Hollywood Blvd. They had cast some demons out of some folks so a police car came rushing up too them. The policeman inquired about a report that they had recieved that somebody was casting out devils. Troy said, "that would be us, officer". The policeman asked, "do you have a license to do that". Troy said "sure, you want to see it"? The policeman quickly replied no. Just as he was about to get in his squad car and leave, he turned around and said, "don't you be casting demons out of anyone who doesn't want you to do that". Thanks Lahry, that more than made my day. Strange, that I have twice attempted to address the whole of "being sick of myself", yesterday wrote it all out and then canned it. This morning again thought it had adequate expression and thought I had posted it.... It never showed up...Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with brevity...I know what you mean, what a blessed state to come to.I know Chanin's husband and family have already gotten infected with the grace that God gives to those who will lay it on the line for another. It is so awesome.James is begining to ring in the head lately, just that one verse...

Chanin said: Just because someone has not been through a person's exact situation, or been broken to the extreme that they have does not mean that they won't be able to counsel them. They just need to to know the truth of the word and know Jesus intimately. Of course it helps, no doubt.I agree, having a similar experience is not necessary, nor does it guarantee an ability to empathize. What is helpful is the ability to empathize with feelings and emotions that result from troubling experiences - such as loss, fear, loneliness, shame, and rejection. However, I would think that if one has never known , for example, loss of any kind, I'm not sure how well that person could be able to identify with someone experiencing loss. I agree with you that knowing Christ is important, and that would imply a certain level of empathy with his own life on earth - his loss, his sufferings etc. Paul was eager to identify with Jesus' sufferings. Would that not include such experiences as loneliness, loss, rejection, as well as physical feelings of hunger, fatigue, etc? Surely that would have made Paul a very empathetic person.

I would like to rephrase 'until we have been sufficiently broken', please, because it gives the idea that the Lord Himself is hurting us more that we already are, and I don't think that's what you mean, Diane. I think you mean that the person who needs healing, who has been concealing undisclosed, ill-defined ... um ... past trauma?... old pain? ... undiagnosed illness ... untold sinful secrets... has survived this long by denying that underlying truth (or truths) and now, the cover-up scenario has to be yielded to the Lord - the facade has to be given up. This is what Hope meant by bringing things from the darkness to the light.Thank you, Dorcas for clarifying my use of words, and defining the real intent of my word choice, "broken". It is not a case of being damaged futher, but of being set free from well-fortified defences. We do need to be careful with our words, because others can interpret something very different than we intended. So, again, thank you for your keen discerning eyes. I am concerned for that person you spoke of who has never experienced anything bad in his entire life. I wonder how he will cope when something bad happens. Can education alone prepare him for that?Thanks for sharing about pastors who try to keep the system intact at the expense of the needs of the individual. Unfortunately our pastors must live with a constant dilema - to support the system, or to seek spiritual maturity for the individual. The two often don't go together.Diane

I have been reading through this thread several times. I can’t but help feeling that something is missing. If I have misunderstood the contributors, please forgive me. I want to highlight what I want to say with a personal testimony, not to draw attention to myself, but because walking out our faith in Christ is obeying His Word and the Christian Life experience. In an earlier threat I recounted a situation where the church had failed a hurting lady completely.I hinted at the possibility that “something” may be missed because of a number of reasons. Most cases I have encountered have already been mentioned: Church programs and the church organization overshadow every need of broken people. My experience is that almost every church sends their hurting people to “Christian,” or even secular “experts.” Many of the people I met as a result of the way God worked in my life, had been for years involved in a form of dependency through regular weekly visits with counselors and never finding freedom.Many denominations don’t recognize or systematically ignore the possibility of demonic oppression. Some charismatic denominations or groups declare that it is impossible for a born-again spirit-filled tongue-talking Christian to be oppressed – might I add, even inhabited – by evil spirits. This poses an enormous problem for the Christian who struggles with bondages that don’t seem to go away by fasting, praying, going forward after altar calls, being prayed over, etc. I was saved in a charismatic church. A few months later, after praying with a pastor received the gift of tongues. Strangely enough some of the difficulties I struggled with prior to my conversion didn’t go away. Sure, I was on cloud nine for several weeks, but I came crashing down when my rage manifested itself again and I experienced very strange things, even physical attacks by unseen beings. I was scared as I had never been before. To make a long story short, through time I was delivered of three demons. The last one was the most difficult, because its root was hidden in something that I had no recollection of. It came to the surface when I attended a compulsory counseling session as part of a course. During that session something started actually to speak through me and at one point I saw myself when I was sexually molested as a small child. Praise the Lord that I can hold a crying baby – I have 5 grand-children – or be with a little animal that cries during the night and not hit or kick it. I beat my oldest daughter for the first time when she was only 2 weeks old. The story is much longer, but through it all God was faithful and restored and healed and renewed. We serve an awesome God. The problem I want to identify is that if I would have stayed in the charismatic church, I would have never found freedom. They simply declared that it was not possible for the Holy Spirit and a demon to be in the same body. Most other churches don’t even want to talk about this, so the person in bondage will struggle and be hopelessly defeated in their Christian walk and never experience the abundant life in Christ. My experience is that demons can be in a born-again Christian and they only come out one way: by command in the name of Jesus Christ. I also believe that it is very important that someone who is involved with hurting people has experienced God’s comfort for their own pain, because God’s Word sets the precedence:2 Corinthians 13 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.It is my prayer that ALL who confess the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life will experience the abundant life He promises us.

Bless you Dorcas,You wrote:I used to sit under ministry which suggested I could not be 'born again' if I had a demon, yet, that I had a demon was what God showed me. But so, the moment I disclosed this to another sister, her reaction was to say 'Oh no no no no no. That can't be true!' In other words, disputing what God had shown me. This led to all sorts of difficulty for me. Moreover, it points to a need for Christians to trust each other's judgement in such matters.I thank you for your honesty. This “facet” of Christian ministry is almost covert, except for some groups who sadly again go into excesses. I know that for me, and my walk In Christ, this is a reality. It is my prayer that this may encourage some dear brother or sister out there who seems to be fighting a loosing battle.I agree with some of the posts that one can resist the devil and he will flee from you; I actually quote that Scripture quite often myself. Unfortunately, the reality is that many new, and even some mature, Christians never seem to be able to get to the abundant life promised by Jesus Christ Himself, and continue to be oppressed and effectively lied to by the devil.A number of years ago I visited my son at Bible College. He asked me to talk to one of the students who struggled with great difficulties and physical demonic manifestations at night. She had gone to her profs and lecturers who all told her to “pray about it,” and it will go away. Not even: “I will pray with you,” no, she was sent off by herself; she was desperate and contemplating suicide. This is Christian love in action? This is bearing each others burdens and thereby fulfilling the law of Christ? In a Bible College no less; sadly “this” did not fit “their” theology. In less then 2 hours this girl was completely free. After I called her several months later, she was still free and actually experiencing the real love of Christ that to this point had eluded her. Could she have done this on her own by seeking God? I cannot answer that and we will never know. I share this because I know that there are a lot of Christians out there that struggle. I see this manifested on a regular basis in the lives of Christian leaders who fall for some sin and after they have repented and are set free, will be kicked out by their Christian “brothers and sisters.” I am not referring to those who choose to sin; who actually dabble in some secret activity. I am talking about those who, because of things that were passed to them by adult perpetrators – often Christians – and as a result are in bondage. A little book called Christian set yourself Free, was in circulation a number of years ago. People borrowed it from me quite regularly; I can testify that these people did not get free because eventually their difficulties became public knowledge.It is my prayer that my opening this aspect of What Kind of Counsel, may actually encourage someone who is questioning their faith.Edit, missed this last para while pasting:We are commanded by Christ to LOVE our neighbors; this sometimes means that what we encounter may not be pretty. This “facet” of ministry certainly isn’t that, but it certainly demonstrates the Love and the Power of our Glorious and Mighty King and Savior Jesus Christ.

She had gone to her profs and lecturers who all told her to “pray about it,” and it will go away. There seems to be two common types of "counsel" that are very unhelpful. They are like either a flight response or a fight response: FIGHT or FLIGHT. 1. FLIGHT: denial - go away, let's not talk about it, you pray about it, just claim victory (cop-out) 2. FIGHT: I'll fix you right now. Just do what I say. Just stop the sin. Now, listen to ME (control) Neither of these express love because they leave no room for LISTENING to the person in need. There is no empathy. There is no room for admitting the feeling of inadaquacy and helplessness, of poverty in spirit, of hungering for God's wisdom and insight. Diane