You've Been Lied To

Life. Liberty. Pursuing your happiness.These words sound neat- even liberating - to human ears. There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end, it leads to death. Prov 16:25Can I rephrase that ?There is a Way // Humanist doctrine that seems right to a people - but in the end - it leads to Laodecia.Think about Laodecia - and its values. You know the scripture - I won’t quote it [ 3:17]Can we have LAODECIA TODAY - without the human-centered doctrine of ‘we have A RIGHT TO Life, Liberty and Pursuit of human happiness’ ?Humans are so religious ... they’ll even pursue happiness in man-made ‘Religion’. Is there a better way of describing the Laodecians, in theirlukewarmness --- than ‘happy in their comfortable religious forms emanating in Man, but not God’ ?What’s the point, then ?Can non-Laodecian disciples live without “life” ( i no longer live ~ Gal.2:20 ) - “human liberty” ( john 8:36 - 2 Cor 3:17 ) - and "pursuing happiness”( Luke 9:23-25, 14:26b -- Phil 3:8-10 -- Gal 6:14 ) ?Can the Church under harsh Communist oppression in China flourish without these vaunted Western-Laodecian RIGHTS? Sure they can. Read up on the history of 20th Century growth in His Church in China after the Communist takeover in ‘49.We’ve been lied to, my friends ...We don’t need rightsChrist laid His down [ john 19:10 / phil 2:6 - 9 ] - to do the Work of The Father - why do we clutch and clamor over ours ?Why do we think we’re doing a service in God’s name - by fighting democratically/constitutionally - for ‘our rights’ ? Do we realize democracy is of pagan Greece - not Jerusalem?How little we know our own paganness -- as“Constitutional” Christians, playing the harlot with words written unwittingly to pave the Laodecian Broad Path ( Happy Path )to destruction.How little we see of the heavenly City - Jerusalem Above - when our eyes are fixed on Washington, London - or whichever pagan house warmed over by a small dab of ‘christianity’.How ingenious our Adversary is -- insinuating his desires to keep man ensnared in his sin - by insinuating to him the idolatry of freedoms to sin ....... within the Western-Laodecian mix. ( Is there anything more definitive than the country of America, for instance, being a country ‘free to sin’ - and vaunting Its Freedoms to export, for gain -- its “sin culture” around the globe ? )when human freedom is unleashed - sin is unleashed - or do we not yet know this?Why does the Gospel flourish today in areas of theplanet without the chains of Political Freedom ? . .compared to the Gospel ‘move’ in the Cultural West, where we are free ? ( yes, I said chains )Is there a correlation between our “Glorious Rights” guaranteed us by a piece of parchment ( God did not write any modern human constitution, no matter what we’ve been told on this by the Adversary and his powers & principalities in the heavenly places ---Satan loves that we think God ‘guarantees’ our rights to happiness ) -- these glorious “rights” & our Laodecian languishing, today in the West - any correlation ???were First Century hearts free, living under the Roman oppressive yoke ?How many hearts aren’t free in the modern West,today as we’re constitutionally free to enslave ourselves . . .Do we see the meaning of Paul’s declaration: “But, our citizenship is in heaven “ . . ?why the “but” ? if it is but not to contrast with the heart-fixedness of many that name the name of Christ - upon earthly matters ( "civilian affairs" - 2 tim. 2:4) . . .Why aren’t our hearts there ( in heavenly places ) ?Why are we palpitating politically over human “rights” .. as though Christ enjoined us to this battle: Today [ heb 4:7 today if you hear His voice. . harden not - on the political . .]Christ saw Roman oppression whereever He turned . . and so did the apostles. They palpitated not to "work the System" - to change the "Order" of things on earth. [ My kingdom is not of this World, my friends . . ]why are we so worldly, then ?why do we sweat to see 'Religious Men' seek & take office in the land . . in the World, whereever we are . .has there ever been a time in the West, since thefourth century, when western political men did not use ‘the NAME’ ---- in furtherance of their earthly ambition, however well-disguised with apt piousness . . . what a jejune picture this is, then - And we play the harlot with this world System !. . Would not the apostle Paul question us . . if he could be transported to our modern evangelical "Political" age -- and say unto us :“ Are you not acting like 'mere men ?”The worldly -- and the christian laodecians -ought sweat and strive for worldly rights - panting after every article of news emanating from the halls of the american capitol or london’s westminster ~ for they have no KINGDOM ABOVE . . The one whose mind is set on the heavenly Kingdom has forfeited these high places ( lev 26:30, num 33:52 ), when he has enlisted in the King's Army . [ 2 tim 2:4]--- he no longer “warfares” with carnal weaponry [ 2 cor. 6:7, 10:4] --he battles not for rights ...he battles to put himself & his own life on that very Altar --- not the High Places of human political carnality -- but on that Cross to which His Lord bids him come . . . .___by the rivers of political babylon, the Spirit is weeping Today ; the Spirit and the Bride say 'come' ..

broyou know the more i walk with God the more i realize that a great many people are going to be very disappointed on that day of judgement. the word says "for many in that day..."i feel the lack of kingdom-mindedness all around me and a sense that everything as it is now is about to be destroyed and for those who aren't rooted in God, that judgement shall surely sweep them away.

Amen baruch_48 and IRONMAN- I agree 100%“Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” is a Satanic lie. Satan wants every man earth to pursue his own happiness. This is called humanism. America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping.The Great Prostitute, the mother of all whores. Could you write a more accurate description of America today then described in Revelation 18? A Laodecian apostate church and the consumers of the earth. America = religious, political and economic “Babylon the Great” all rolled into one. I know many don’t want to admit it, but is there really anyone left who does not believe that America is the mother of all whores and the Great Prostitute talked about in Revelation?Thanks for the post baruch_48 your assessment of things is right on.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Revelation 18Babylon Is Fallen1After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 3"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality." 4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6"Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7"To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' 8"For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. Lament for Babylon9"And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' 11"And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, 13and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives. 14"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. 15"The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; 17for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!' And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?' 19"And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!' 20"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her." 21Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22"And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Baruch 48, Preach it Brother! Ironman, I always assumed Babylon was Roman Catholism, and the "harlots" she mothered were the protestant denominations. Not very P.C. but when I hear "Christian" radio and preachers from the pulpit praising republican party line as if it were from God, I get a very uneasy feeling about the "Church".

America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping.America is unique in this aspect? I think you pretty much described mankind here. Seriously...it may be impossible to truly appreciate the evil, the atrocities and the suffering that is really going on in this world because of various political and religous systems. For instance, rent the documentary War Photographer and spend 20 minutes with it's scenes of famine, persecution, war, and hatred from around the planet. Your mind and heart will go numb. is there really anyone left who does not believe that America is the mother of all whores and the Great Prostitute talked about in Revelation?This is a strange message for the American church ...if America is the revival of Babylon in Revelation...then why preach repentance? Can prophecy be broken?Why not pray for the annihilation of America? Wouldn't that be praying according to God's will? If America is the great harlot, we should not weep with those merchants...we should rejoice over her destruction.I'm not "defending" any ideology...just asking some questions.MC

Carefully read Revelation 17 and 18. When you compare the description of the two, are they the same? The Babylon of Revelation 17 is drunken with the blood of the saints. She sits on the beast. If one wants to make a comparison with the revived Roman empire and the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, this Babylon cannot be America. Look at the description of the adornment in 17:4 and compare that with the adornment of the various officials of a certain church, who killed ten of thousands who wanted to know God for themselves throughout the ages. Now look at the Babylon in Revelation 18. It is hard to imagine that the merchants of the world will mourn over Babylon of Rev 17, but they certainly mourn over the Babylon of Revelation 18. Revelation 18 describes a powerful nation that will be destroyed, with who the entire world traded. That is not the Babylon of Revelation 17, which killed the saints.Just consider the possibility. Revelation is not an easy book, but there are things written in it that we can glean from.The bottom line is: REPENT, REPENT, and REPENT. Return to your first love, Jesus Christ!

Jimbobi believe babylon to be the world system as it is, being self-sufficient and not needing God and trying to push Him out of everything. the whore of babylon which rides on the beast with 7 heads and is drunk from the blood of the saints i believe to be the catholic church as per Rev 17the bottom line is this, the hour is late and we have no time to spend arguing about this and that at the expense of repentance. we need to be in prayer, fasting, on our hands and knees confessing our sins before God and repenting, repenting, repenting.

First off I'd like to ammend my previous statement about protestant denominations being the whores of babylon, I meant to say APOSTATE protestant denominations. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water!The Bible describes apostate Israel as a harlot, I believe Revelation describes an apostate church as the harlot.We are told to "Come out of her my people so that you will not participate in her sins.."(Rev 18:4)I believe the beast is the world system and the mark of the beast is to think like the world(a mark on the forehead) and to work for the world (a mark on the hand).

Hans,I agree that the Babylon of Rev 17 and 18 seem like two different entities, and am willing to admit that this very well may be the case. I have always thought this to be the case in the past focusing on the RCC instead of the apostate condition of the Western “christian” church as the Babylon of Rev 17. I think we can all agree that there is a great probability that the Babylon of Rev 18 refers to America and certainly not the RCC. But over the past year I feel that the Lord has been really showing me how these two Babylons are actually one in the same. I can easily see how America could be the revived Roman Empire when you compare the history of both. America mimics the Roman Empire in power, society, might, culture, politics, and economics in many ways. A thorough study of the history of both Empires bears this out. I did a term paper in collage comparing and contrasting the two Empires (American and Roman) the similarities are startling and numerous. But, I was always confused about how the verse “drunk on the blood of the believers” fit in with America. I believe that the Lord gave me the answer. Have you ever wondered - “where are all the prophets today?” Or “Where are the men of God in the churches and in this crisis hour in which we live?” God said more than once “you were set apart (I knew you) in your mothers womb” Is it possible that these men of God and believers were aborted, murdered and their blood was spilled in the clinics of “Babylon The Great”? If this is true then America is truly drunk on the blood of believers - How many millions of the 43,000,000 aborted in America since 1973 would has been believers or prophets, or apostles, or teachers, or saints - only God know for sure - but certainly enough for America to be considered drunk on the blood of believers. Even if only 5% would have been saints or believers that 2.15 million believers murders in the clinics of Babylon (America)I understand Revelation is a symbolic and tricky book to understand and interpret at times, and I understand that I may be wrong about America being the Babylon of Rev 17. (I am as sure as a man can be that America is the Babylon in Rev 18) But we might want to consider the possibility that America is both the Babylon of 17 and 18 all wrapped into one. Especially when we look at the condition of the church and America being drunk on the blood of believes and saints. Give it some thought and prayer.I agree with both Hans and IRONMAN on the following pointsQuote Hans:“The bottom line is: REPENT, REPENT, and REPENT. Return to your first love, Jesus Christ!”Quote IRONMAN:“the bottom line is this, the hour is late and we have no time to spend arguing about this and that at the expense of repentance. we need to be in prayer, fasting, on our hands and knees confessing our sins before God and repenting, repenting, repenting.”

Brother Patrick,I just gave a possible interpretation. There are a couple of them out there. This is what came to me after preparing for Bible studies, but I would certainly not stake my life on it. Your take on this may very well be better when you consider the next paragraph:What I do know is that when I got the word that Babylon would burn in the spring of 2001, I was convinced that it was Rome. When 9/11 occurred, in conjunction with the aircraft, I realized that my interpretation of Babylon in this case was wrong, that it was New York.I agree with Neilgin1, even though I am not as up on American politics as you all are, America is in big trouble, unless the Church can get together, repent, and go before God to plead for mercy.

The thing is, is that we have been lied to, for hundreds of years now about this country.... you'd really have to know how our politics have really played a part from the git-go. Who allowed China to go communist, or helped support Hitler...Annie,Are you serious about this? Could you please share the rationale behind this belief? MC

from dorcas:the Spirit and the Bride say "come" . .Amen. Just for the record, Westminster started drifting away more and more in 1967. We're well on the way to all religions being practised with equal 'right', to Christianity, including secular ones. As you say bro, " a country ‘free to sin’ "I'll have a lot more to say on this thread overall ( about who/what is babylon ... i take a broader view than some are taking here -- yes America and Rome are big engines of the later Full Expression of Babylon ( which Rev 17 & 18 both are describing -- Jer. 50 & other places, as well ) )but we need to get our eyes off "America" or "Rome", solely - as That HarlotI just wanted to address Dorcas' above statement about London "drifting away in 1967" ...To my mind, and to the point of my post .... it's not about very recent drifts ( in America or London ..... the bug-bears we moan about, especially in America --- "taking prayer out of schools" ... "taking God out of the pledge of allegiance" )the word "God" was added into the american pledge only in the Beaver Cleaver Laodecian 1950'sand now we're moaning about it being removed by "the Liberals"we need to realize the Founders were "Liberals" ( of their 18th Century age ) .. and their whole revolution was utterly liberal - again - for its timethey only 'used religious language' as a cultural norm .... but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age (EDIT - The very american revolution was an utterly liberal Smashing of Conservativism of the age )( EDIT AGAIN - to quote Patrick/ChristIsKing - America (and much of its western counterparts) is based on humanism, selfishness, pride and greed. This (humanism, pride, selfishness and greed) is the life blood of democratic, capitalistic America. If you take humanism, selfishness, pride and greed out of America the entire country and it's economic and political systems come to a screeching halt. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed are the oil and gas that keep the satanic machine called America running. Humanism, selfishness, pride and greed is the blood that keeps the heart of America pumping. -- I would just add my thought that all world systems are 'satanic machines' ( this goes to the thread - who or what is the god of this world ) ... & also that Patrick's explanation is a perfect description of what was a Liberal explosion in world human history, as the America machine got "pumping"the biggest lie for evangelical christians to get over is that America was founded on this - NOT JESUS, which is a childish fairytale )To my mind, the point is not that "we're drifting now" .... per seThe point is, the very foundations of both America and Britain --- were "drifts from" THE CROSS ( if europeans could ever to have said to be fixed to the Cross in any age since the first centuries ).. we lament the liberal 'fruit' we now reap ( such as formal lip-service prayer for children being quashed [ read Matt 6:5,6 - which also applies to children, not just public religious hypocrites - which most politicians have always been, since the Founding of all modern nation-states] )( this makes me think of that thread of the children crying for 'revival in America' on the FireOnTheAltar site ... religiously, hypocritically, at that young age )America nor Britain need neither be "publicly Christian" or publicly "Rastafarian"they're irrelevancies as to the inner life of the Realmslet 'all religions be practiced with equal right' in LaodeciaAnd let the True Church rise up, in preparation of Jehovah destroying these false Laodecian forms

but out of hearts of political & even religious innovation [i.e. "Liberal" ] - stirred up by the secular Enlightenment shedding abroad during that Age This statement begins to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate history, in a way that makes more sense to me. The thread of history is really more like a spiderweb. Ascibing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. The rest of mankind doesn't get off the hook that easy. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!MC

to take in the entire panoramic vista of mankinds unregenerate historyGood thought, brother .. and this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )"Progress" is the World's "god" ... and the technological/political/economic innovations ( that largely the American "engine" is behind in this world, today ) ... is building up that Final Tower of babel ... which anti-Christ will be at the pinnacle ofGod's allowing the american revolution to happen as it did - sovereignly - is merely to full His prophecy from His panoramic view of the sweep of history ..... to fulfill the conditions of the End, in which a Strong Humanistic Tower is of necessity to be there - to destroy

this is along the lines of my understanding as I study history ( from a crucified approach, not from the Triumphalist "Christian" approach )A crucified approach to history instead of the triumphalist approach? Perhaps we see eye to eye afterall.I have come to believe, that if we are indeed seeing the last days, then there will be one fundamental way to distinguish the true church from the apsotate. The faithful remnant, even in Babylon, will forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...MC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:Ascribing all the evils of this world to America is intellectually and spiritually indefensible. Babylon has been around ever since...since the days of Babylon!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~No one on this thread has ascribed ALL THE EVILS OF THIS WORLD to America. (some yes, but not all) This is ascribed to Satan. And Babylon in concept has been around since Babylon, yes, but this is not what I am talking about. We are talking about “The mother of all whores” - “Babylon The Great” that described about in Rev 17 and 18. This has not been around since Babylon, but these Scriptures are making reference to a SPECIFIC country, nation, system, or organization during a SPECIFIC time period. (the end times) Ascribing the characteristics of this specific country, nation, system, or church described in Rev 17 and 18 to America is both Scripturally and intellectually unavoidable. The match is almost perfect.Not trying to come down on you Compton - just trying to clarify what I am talking about. The points you make are good and I agree with them - all the worlds evils ascribed to America is just dumb and it is true the concept and spirit of Babylon has been around since Babylon - it is just not what I am talking about. :-) I am answering the other questions you posed earlier in the thread and should post them soon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:I have come to believe, that if we are indeed seeing the last days, then there will be one fundamental way to distinguish the true church from the apsotate. The faithful remnant, even in Babylon, will forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Amen MC!!! On this we can agree!!!

the adjunct to all this talk of 'Babylon', which is important & necessary ... but leaves us dry, if we don't go on - from the kingdom of Confusion to the Kingdom of Purity - Zion ... is the way Christians can avoid, even here, on this discussion board .... bearing the fruits of Babylon ( which is discord, confusion, enmity, strife, angst, death )a speaker whose text sermons are here on Sermon Index, but not his audios - Lance Lambert ... preaches strongly on Christians letting go of their rights within the Assembly ( along the truths of the Unity in the Spirit [ eph 4/john 17 ] & the esteeming others more than ourselves in love & humbling ourselves to serve one another [ phil. 2:6-9 / john 13 ] )two sermons he gave in 2003 really hit home to me as the answer to all the squabbles we have ( on discussion boards, or in person )you can find them here:christian tape ministryin the upper right hand box type in "Lambert" .. you'll see 115 links to choose from of his stuff there ... click DATE DELIVERED to organize them chronologically ...... and then type in page 14 at the bottom rightthe sermons are Deny Yourself and Take Up The Cross and Make Love Your AimThis is about discipleship, folks - loving one another in true unity in the church ...all the rest is babylon

forsake the Theology of Glory and rediscover the Theology of the Cross...amen brotherif anyone is guilty in the 'flow of history' - it is Constantine ... as far as being a "glory hound" rather than a Cross-seekerbut he was just a tool of satan's deception that the Lord has allowed ... in the Grand Sovereign Plan --- towards the centuries long culmination in Final Babylon

from christisking:“The mother of all whores” - “Babylon The Great” that described about in Rev 17 and 18. This has not been around since Babylon, but these Scriptures are making reference to a SPECIFIC country, nation, system, or organization during a SPECIFIC time period. (the end times)Can I say something here ? "spiritual Babylon" is what we ought key on It was 'around' longer than physical Babylon in the ancient worldin "her" [ spiritual babylon ] - was found the blood of prophets and of the saints - and all who have been killed on the earth ( the very end of Rev. 18)let's break that verse down:prophets - this includes what Hebrews 12:24 and Jude 11 are speaking to ( the slaying of Abel by Cain ) - as prophetic of the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ . .. . [ After Abel, Nimrod is the next most important figure in "Babylon"s history of Triumphalist death dealing & building cities where death stalks the streets ( Gen 10:9-10 / Gen 11:3-4 ) ]Spiritual babylon includes the blood of Abel ... and all other "saints" mentioned in Rev 18:24, in the Old Test. period & in the 2000 years since the crossTriumphalist christianity has taken the 'way of Cain' ( jude 11) throughout the ages, slaying, rather than being slainRemnant Christians have been slain by the System all throughout medieval times, and then of course, in the protestant ref. periodChrist is the ultimate "remnant Christian" - if I can say thatit's clear if you let Rev 18:24 speak to you ( rather than you try and 'fit' it into a way of trying to 'categorize' Babylon into a single "thing" or "entity" .... ) ... that America, or Rome, or ancient Babylon .. or any geographical locus cannot be what's referred toit must include all the blood shed of anyone ( even heathen in south america under the Incan blood ritual sacrifices or Joe Blow being murdered on the streets of Tacoma Washington or Zulus by the British in south africa under 19th Cent. Colonialism ) ... this is Spiritual Babylonall-encompassing, beyond physicalityit is the Kingdom of Death on earth - everywhere

Brother baruch_48,I understand what you are saying brother and agree with what you are proposing concerning spiritual Babylon. I could be wrong, but I think the destruction described in Rev 18 is talking about a SPECIFIC place. Do you disagree? Do you think spiritual and economic Babylon are one in the same? Or do you separate them?

Compton,Please let me answer a few of the good questions you posed.First of all,Question 1-Quote:“America is unique in this aspect? I think you pretty much described mankind here.”Answer-Yes and no. You are correct my friend in your statement that this is a description of mankind as a whole. But when we look at two major systems of man (political and economic) we must admit that the Democratic and Capitalist systems are more dependant upon and shamelessly promote humanism, greed, selfishness, and pride among it’s citizen then any other political or economic system. This is how America (and it’s western counterparts) stands out in this matter of humanism, greed, selfishness, and pride. I am not saying that we should try to become a Socialistic Monarchy. We should not be concerned with such things and let God work out the earthly kingdoms and focus ourselves on His heavenly kingdom. I am not concerned with America and its political and economic systems or changing them - if God wants Americas political and/or economic systems to fall, they will fall, if God wants them to stand, they will stand - I am just pointing out some facts about them, sin and how they relate to America being the “Mother of all Whores” “Babylon the Great”Question 2-Quote:if America is the revival of Babylon in Revelation...then why preach repentance? Can prophecy be broken?Answer- We should always preach repentance regardless of our interpretation of prophesy . Just because God has for told coming destruction and annihilation does not mean we shouldn’t preach for people to turn from their sins and be reconciled to God. This is actually a very good and Biblical reason to preach repentance. We see this as an example over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again throughout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and right through the end of the Old Testament. In fact, we are told that if we see the wrath of God coming and refuse to sound the alarm and warn others to flee the wrath to come, we will show up on Judgment day with the blood of others on our hands. We should warn people of Gods anger fury and wrath that is about to strike America. We are not to be concerned with whether people listen or not. Most of them are under strong delusion sent by God Himself. Does this mean we should not preach to them - a thousand times NO - but we should expect that they will not listen. We are to be obedient and preach repentance and the Kingdom of God. The holy Spirit will draw who He will.Ezekiel 23"Son of man," he said, "I am sending you to the nation of Israel, a nation that is rebelling against me. Their ancestors have rebelled against me from the beginning, and they are still in revolt to this very day. 4They are a hard-hearted and stubborn people. But I am sending you to say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says!' 5And whether they listen or not--for remember, they are rebels--at least they will know they have had a prophet among them. 6"Son of man, do not fear them. Don't be afraid even though their threats are sharp as thorns and barbed like briers, and they sting like scorpions. Do not be dismayed by their dark scowls. For remember, they are rebels! 7You must give them my messages whether they listen or not. But they won't listen, for they are completely rebellious! Jeremiah 610To whom can I give warning? Who will listen when I speak? Their ears are closed, and they cannot hear. They scorn the word of the LORD. They don't want to listen at all. 11So now I am filled with the LORD's fury. Yes, I am weary of holding it in! ... 16So now the LORD says, "Stop right where you are! Look for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, `No, that's not the road we want!' 17I set watchmen over you who said, `Listen for the sound of the trumpet!' But you replied, `No! We won't pay attention!'Question 3-Quote:Why not pray for the annihilation of America? Wouldn't that be praying according to God's will? Answer-We should always pray that Gods will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Since we don’t know exactly what Gods will is in every or any situation, we should always pray His will be done. The Bible says God will send them strong delusion. Does this mean we should pray for God send strong delusion on our churches instead of praying for revival of our churches. NO. What I am trying to say is that we should pray for the will of God on earth as it is in heaven regardless of what His will is. Whether His will is to send strong deletion or revival or destruction or deliverance, we should pray for His will. We should always pray for Gods will be done - not what we think He should do or want Him to do. Your will God - not my own - no matter what that will is. That’s how Jesus prayed - that’s how Jesus taught us to pray - that is how we should pray also.Question 4-Quote:“If America is the great harlot, we should not weep with those merchants...we should rejoice over her destruction.”Answer-This is absolutely 110% correct. I am not saying I know for sure, just pointing out some very strong possibilities I feel the Lord has shown me. But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment. The angels in heaven will be rejoicing and praising God - the merchants of the earth will be weeping and mourning. You can be with one of the two groups - the angels of heaven - or the merchants of the earth. I can guarantee you if it is America or someone else I will be with the angels of heaven rejoicing and praising God for His justice and judgment. What group will you be with? :-o

Patrick,Thanks brother for your thoughtful answers. I should reflect on them before commenting...I am interested in Baruch's answer to your question...I do want to offer that this topic would be much less volatile if we discussed the attributes of Babylon as a counterfiet to God's kingdom before giving it another name. There is nothing to lose...Perhaps all of us in this thread can agree that having a clear biblical understanding of "Babylon" is more important then the normal eschatological conspiracy speculation that is cluterring our hearts and minds. This discussion is about separating the world system out of the Church. We see Jesus coming to His church with the Sword of His Word to cut fat from bone...to divide the world from the Church right through our own hearts. This is a discussion about the heart of Christianity as Jesus and the apostles meant to convey the Gospel to this dark world.As soon as we clutter our meditation on this topic with all sorts of urban myths and sneaking suspicions about microchip implants and Christian concentration camps...well we can't tell rumors from truth. The whole discussion collapses into fretting and hand wringing.What all of us are yearning for is to see the Church begin to resemble the authentic counter-worldly light she was meant to be. The true church is more then martrys getting their heads chopped off by the anti-christ---We are a beatitude people, who are familiar with the cross before we ever see death....and as Andrew mounted the hill seeing his cross before him he cried out loud enough to be heard by onlookers..."Most welcome cross, I come to you. I have known you in life, and now in death. I have always loved you, through glory or disgrace."MC

Amen MC! Very well put!! I agree 100%!!! We probably agree on more than we disagree on.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Quote:“I do want to offer that this topic would be much less volatile”~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~If I ever come across as volatile or augmentative in this thread or any other thread, I sincerely apologize. For I can assure you that this is not my intent or heart in way shape or form. I do wish to have a polite and sometimes spirited discussion, but I am not trying to prove my own point of view correct in a contentious manner. I know very well I may be wrong, but I wish to share what I feel the Lord has shown me and what my current understanding is at this point in my walk with Christ and knowledge of the Scriptures.

Patrick, I mentioned I might give you some comments on your thoughtful reply to my questions. In the end, I see the substance and validity of your perspective. You have given me much to think about. This question of "apocalypse" has been a compelling one to me recently. I see that the perplexing fascination with end of this world is really rooted in the blessed hope of Jesus' return. I guess I've always known this. Still I feel it healthy to test this fascination from time to time...to make sure that an anticipation for the end times is not rooted in angst or phobia, which are common symptoms of our age.Also, before this thread floats to the bottom of the thread ocean, I wanted to tie off my comments about the "Theology of the Cross." I feel this phrase could become a buzzword in future days...what kind of buzzword I'm not quite sure. For my own part, I trace the phrase back to Luther’s 95 theses, seizing upon it as an expression of holding fast to authentic Christianity. I know there are others, outside of SI, who could seize upon this very same phrase for more liberal purposes, as a way of shaming all of Christendom...not just the bad but also all of it. Years from now...if someone should happen across this thread, know this: when I said that we hope to "rediscover the Theology of the Cross" I wasn’t trying to establish some new vogue post modern liberal counter culture theology. I was simply meaning that we would gladly lay down our own scholarly opinions, our "theology of glory" in order to share in Christ's mind and heart. All of our theological wrangling is not to establish dominant orthodoxy, consensus or “answers.” We long to show this raging world that there is a peculiar sanctuary offered to those who are overwrought by their own evil and disobedience to God: a death to self and a new life in Christ Jesus known as the Gospel.God’s blessings to all the brothers and sisters here at Sermon Index.Mike Compton

Some older thoughts about Babylon and its ongoing significance as a Bible symbol.

Thanks for the link Ron. That is a truly edifying series brother.MC

But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment.It's been a few days and I've given this a little more thought. The following reflections are based on implications I derived from your statements…not necessarily the implications you were thinking of when you wrote them.On one hand I think there is something commendable about you following the course of your theology and logic to its conclusion...regardless of where it takes you.Yet, often when I am following a map to a destination in my car and end up in a dead-end street rather then the place I intended, I can only assume I have misread the map. Accordingly, I have tried to arrive at this destination you have described and in all honesty have concluded that you must have misread your map.To be fair, your conclusions come somewhat close to Augustine’s epitaph for Rome The City of God. Yet, in this masterpiece, which explains to the world why Rome crumbled and why Christianity will prevail, there are already the seeds of western Christendom that you loathe, preserved in conservative American Christianity. (For example, consider the honest conclusion...if men are tortured for breaking men’s' laws, how much more justified it is that they are tortured for breaking God's laws.)1500 years later, Bonhoeffer tried to understand the Christians’ responsibility living in the so-called Third Reich, which certainly showed itself to be a manifestation of “Babylon". I think his attempts to wrestle with being a German and a Christian produced some very interesting thoughts, a few brilliant and a few which are dark and conflicted. Perhaps it was during his participation in a plot to murder Hitler that he arrived at the pragmatic formula "It is better to do evil, then to be evil." (That's quite a loophole!) Yet, not even Bonhoeffer, as outspoken as he was against his government, wanted to see Germany destroyed…defeated perhaps, but not destroyed.Likewise in America, we see manifestations of the world system in full display. Certainly, if evil could be “destroyed” then we would have great reason to rejoice. Yet, this is on the other side of the canyon from looking forward to the destruction of a country. In my own heart, for me to begin with a gospel of wanting to see Christ established in the nations, and arriving at a gospel of wanting to see Christ destroying the nations is an inversion of startling proportions. True, Jesus will one day judge this planet…but I see no invitation for me to sit with Him on that rainbow, even in my heart, and cheer His dreadful work. In fact, I feel that to mentally leap forward to the day of His judgment, to empathize with the Christ that brings fire, skips me out of my present call to pick up my cross. We know that one vital aspect of the cross is that it demonstrates the outpouring of God’s wrath. Yet, as we claim our own cross, let’s not miss the specific nature of the wrath that was upon it…it was for intercession and not projection. This is the fundamental difficulty I have in feeling satisfaction in the destruction of America. The cross of Christ absorbs death away from others...which is a far cry from our religous cross which radiates death outward and away from itself. In an age of individual spirituality the intercessory spirituality of the cross is all but forgotten. Can we, a self-help people, understand the death that Jesus suffered for us; that to share His cross is not to save ourselves while pronouncing death on others? If I accept the cross, aren’t I hoping to die for others for Christ’s sake? So, if I am to be given over to intercession, I cannot rejoice over the destruction of America.All of this is not to mitigate the fear of God or to squelch the message of repentance. Nor am I saying that God does not raise and sink nations for His purposes. I am only saying that I cannot make room for rejoicing over the destruction of America in my heart, and at the same time claim to be filled with the Spirit of God that would lay down His own life for the life of others. Blessings,MC

Hi Compton...!I found your post quite interesting.Every time that I read through the various posts in this thread (or in other Babylon threads), I am reminded about Jonah. Jonah was sent to tell the people that Ninevah was going to be destroyed. Even though the Word from God was final -- it did not mean that God would not relent. Indeed, God did relent. The people repented. You might say that Ninevah experienced a "revival" of sorts. The entire nation repented in sackcloth and ashes. So God did not do what He said he would do. But Jonah was not happy. In fact, he grew angry at God! He told the Lord, "...for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil" (Jonah 4:2). We all know what happened. Jonah found a place outside of the city so that he could watch and see what was going to happen. He even built himself a shelter to keep himself cool. But the sun grew hot. So God planted a vine (gourd) for Jonah to provide some shade for his head. Unfortunately, the next morning, a worm ate the vine and it withered. God then provided a hot wind and a hot sun to make things uncomfortable for Jonah. Jonah became so angry -- he wanted to die! God asked Jonah, "Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd?" Jonah again told God that he wanted to die! And then the Lord told Jonah, "Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" (Jonah 4:10-11). The point is this: Sometimes, Christians seem to almost delight in the death or destruction of the wicked. But that is not the heart of God. Yes, we should preach the truth. Yes, we should tell others the Word that God has instructed us. But do we not remember that God does not delight in the death of anyone? He is not willing that anyone should perish -- but that all should come into repentance.America might very well be the Babylon found in the book of Revelation. There are many references that indicate that it could be. No nation has contained the wealth and prosperity as America has enjoyed (although some historians might argue that it is unfair judging current standards of wealth with say, the Roman Empire). But today, America is indeed both the greatest importing and exporting nation on the Earth. But then again, there are some references in Revelation chapter 18 that seem to indicate that passage is not referring to America -- at least in its present state. For instance, verse 24 states that "...in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." Can the United States of America (about 229 years old) be responsible for the death of all believers since the beginning of the Church (nearly 2000 years ago)?Through history, many Bible scholars have interpreted this passage to mean different things. Some have stated implicitly that this refers to Rome -- or specifically, the Vatican (the "city of seven hills" in Revelation 17:9). Interpretation of that passage has been about as varied as views of who the anti-Christ will be. Babylon has been interpreted to be everything from the actual physical city of Babylon (in Iraq), the Roman Catholic Church, Mecca, the United Nations, London, Berlin, New York (like Brother Wilkerson believes), and of course, America. Some believe that it is more of a spiritual system -- a true rich, modern, harlot Church. Others have argued that it is religious pride and hypocrisy -- where throughout history, some believe that they have done God a favor by killing true believers. What if Babylon is America? Should we stop believing for a move of God? Should we just close our Bibles, sell the house, buy a plane ticket for Jerusalem so that we can "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4)? Or should we stay here and preach? Perhaps America is Babylon. But perhaps it is not the America of today. Pre-trib Christians usually believe that the events of Revelation 17-18 will take place after the Rapture. But suppose that the post-trib people are correct. Does that mean that these events are both inevitable and imminent, and we should thus give up? Or is it possible that there is still hope for America? When God was about to destroy Sodom, Abraham prayed and asked God, "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" (Genesis 18:24). Abraham asked God about the extent of his mercy. The number of righteous individuals it would take for God to spare the entire city went from 50, to 45, to 40, to 30, to 20 and then finally, to 10 (Genesis 18:28-32). Unfortunately, God could not find ten righteous in the city. There was only Lott and his family (but it could be argued that not even Lott was righteous -- as was found in the next chapter). But the point is that God has not changed. His willingness to spare the righteous is just as great today as it was then. Why? Because God is just -- a good judge. He will not punish the righteous along with the wicked. Will believers be here during the great tribulation? I don't know. Keith Green once said, "Pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post-trib." But one thing is for certain -- God will "...keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10). Whether that means we will be here (on Earth) or there, it doesn't matter. We will be in his eye. Remember -- his eye is on the sparrow. Until then, I suggest that we continue to preach the Word with utmost compassion -- seeing the lost (even in America or Babylon) as being "sheep without a Shepherd."Maranatha! :-)

Could you explain this statement for me, please? "In an age of individual spirituality the intercessory spirituality of the cross is all but forgotten. Can we, a self-help people, understand the death that Jesus suffered for us; that to share His cross is not to save ourselves while pronouncing death on others? If I accept the cross, aren’t I hoping to die for others for Christ’s sake?" I must admit that I am somewhat in over my head here, but I cannot help but come to the conclusion that we have emphasized personal responsibility to the point of losing interest in others. Let me prattle a little in general terms.Personally, when I say that we must find the “intercessory spirituality” of the cross, I am groping in the dark to find a way to express that we can not give up hope for this Earth…until it’s appointed time. Now I realize this cuts across the apocalyptic grain of the church…but consider that this may be the very point of the powerlessness we loathe in ourselves. we have dismissed the very world that we profess to bring the Gospel to. If heaven were a DVD movie, we would be pressing the remote right now, skipping chapters and going to the triumphant finale. Maybe we aren’t as comfortable with the Gospels’ plot as we claim. 19th Century humanism depicted man as Prometheus striding and conquering his own problems. Christians fundamentally reacted against this appalling arrogance and reminded man of his humility and weakness before a holy and sovereign God. Fair enough, but mankind has by and large moved beyond 19th century hubris. Yet we continue to pursue the individual holiness message of our forefathers, when what we need a concept of community holiness...a dying not to self but to each other...this begins with hope. Typecasting man as proudly partying his way to hell makes for fiery preaching but it is somewhat askew and incomplete of the full picture. In reality the planet’s people are meditating in fear as evidenced by a global surge away from rationality towards irrational forms of spirituality. Preach repentance yes…but not just from over-confidence and pride. Repent from apathy and pessimism that excuses giving up. Mankind is no longer striding…he is hiding. Each one of us, saved and unsaved, is tempted to retreat back into ourselves and focus on personal maintenance…having accepted that economies will crash, people will die, cities will burn, and that the law of entropy must prevail. We are told to accept these horrible realties, which become a source of great conflict when we have children. In this aspect the Church is no different. This is the very point where we must rise to the occasion. Let’s not think that predicting inevitable disasters like stock market crashes, oil shortages, wars, and famines makes us prophetic. I was learning about that stuff 20 years ago from secular professors in college. Truly prophetic people would continue to have hope for Homo sapiens right down to the last toenail and hair follicle. We Christians may be spiritual beings, but for now remain hairy bipeds sharing in humanity, breeding our share of it’s children, debt, hunger, and disease. Perhaps it is only as hairy breeding bipeds following a Homo Sapien Jesus with dirty feet, and not as glorified saints in white robes adoring Jesus in the heavenlies, that we can truly have fellowship with Christ."Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God: Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." These are profound verses but their perspective is entirely future and in another realm. Consider how dreadful they sound if we subtly alter the wording…"And after Katrina I heard a great voice of much people in the local church, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."Like I said, I am somewhat in over my head on this topic. It just eems to me that rejoicing on Earth over the burning of Babylon, whether this is America or Iraq, makes us unworthy to rejoice in heaven. These are just my current thoughts brothers and sisters,MC

I appreciate you as well Annie! I share your longing to see Jesus return sister.Katrina has nothing whatsoever to do with the destruction of Rev. 18, so you cannot compare the two, Scriptural.Keep in mind, that I was simply trying to imitate the logic of those who apply these verses to current events. In fact, I agree...the scipture wasn't talking about Katrina. Furthermore, my point is that we are not yet those glorified saints praising God over the destruction of Babylon... That is future tense.So, to "long for His appearing" is a bittersweet thing indeed, yet we are to long for His appearing, Scripturally.Bittersweet is a good word for the duality that this issue raises. My only counterpoint to this familiar theme is that we should first long for Christ's return incarnationaly, before we long for him eschatologically. Both are required if the church is be “prophetic.”""I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. Graham makes a popular point but I think it misses something...we cannot have it both ways. If we don't like our religion and state mixed...if that is a form of Babylon...then her complaint is pointless. If Christians are attending schools and involved in government then Christ is still in these institutions. The Lord does not dwell in buildings, He dwells in His people. We do not need symbols of Ten Commandments and Morning Prayer rituals...we simply need Christians who live incarnationally, obediently bringing Jesus into these realms. (edit; another deleted point for another time...)I know to talk about Christ in secular roles borders on absurdity because much of our tradition keeps Christ preaching safely under an olive tree on the hillside or in the temple...far away from the irreligious world we actually live in. But this is the unreality that we have to stretch past if we are going to remain vital to the world. New Orleans is a good example.... there will be some Christians who will be saying "I told you so" and leave, and there will be other Christians, some who are engineers, contractors, even politicians, ect. who will come to live and rebuild the city. The difference between the two groups is profound because only the latter group will have the right to preach the Gospel in New Orleans.Blessings,MC

Her brother is most involved in helping down there and no doubt this woman has sent her good share of aide also, so we should be careful in our judgments on her. Annie, I only disagreed with her intepretation of Katrina. I did not pass judgement on her. Let's not burden unity with consensus! By the way, I think she is an excellent author!... your response sounds sort of "reconstructionism", Pastor James Kennedy style.I don't know what that is. Is it bad? Labels are usually derrogative, so it must be.'If' we live in a country, that God will eventually say, ENOUGH to, well then our hearts must respect HIS Righteousness over our own interests.Most certainly!...for me this discussion, ( living in the "United States of Babylon, ;-)) is about developing a proper understanding of that righteousness should the Lord tarry.I'll pipe down for a while and let others share the bandwidth here. I don't want to champion some new idea...I was just trying to reconcile some contradictions in my mind.MC

Thanks Annie,I looked it up. I knew it as dominion theology which I certainly do not endorse! "Reconstructionists -- also called "theonomists" or advocates of "dominion theology" -- want to impose "biblical law" (or, more accurately, their interpretation of biblical law) on the United States. Under their view, democracy should be scrapped and replaced with a theocratic state based on a literal reading of the Old Testament's legal code.In a "reconstructed" society, government would be dramatically scaled back. Most government institutions, including public schools and various welfare/social service programs, would be abolished and replaced with church-run efforts. Political leaders would look to the Bible, not the Constitution, as the nation's governing document."Wowwee. :eek: I thought I was the one saying we didn't need a plaque of the Ten Commandments in our court houses to have Christ present there (Not against it either...)If only Christians would be filled with Christ's Spirit and fulfill the law. :cry: My perspective is better captured in an Amy Carmichael poem about Christians ministering in a prison. I don't remember exactly but the poem, which depicts a scene of ministers and lay people being checked and admitted through the security gate, ends with this thought. "The warden can't see the One whose invisible feet follow them in." So, we don't need more plaques in these places...we need more Holy Spirit.In all honesty, I was saddened when I read about this belief system. I am glad to say that I don't know anyone who thinks like this. Christian Reconstructionism sounds like a another term for fascism.I am fundamentally a proponent of separation of church and state. A key feature of my version of state/church separation is that I don't believe Christians should be denied participation in their a truly representative government. I believe the only way to keep a real separation is to place Christians on equal political footing with the rest of society...not above and not below. I am fine with a Christian being able to participate and serve according to their secular administrative and judicial qualifications. Just don't tell me to vote for you just because you are a Christian...I'll take it as a deep insult to my intellect and my faith.I was going to bow out of this thread for awhile...but I thought a glance at reconstructionism relevant to the thread's theme. (I'm glad you mentioned it Annie.)Reconstructionism is the worst kind of "worldly"...worldly things dressed up as church.Blessings Annie,MC

Ahh Annie,You are too generous. I just was curious to know what you knew!You are a blessing dear sister.MC

Sorry if this is taking us backwards in the discussion, but I need time to catch up and felt this was important to brother Compton's earlier post. Also - This has been a great discussion - Thank you Compton for the many comments and insights - you are a wise man. 8-) Boy - you guys type quicker then I can read. This is a comment on Compton’s post ”Babylon and the Cross” on page four which was written in response to the folowing quote from me - “But if I am correct and America is the Babylon talked and described in Rev 17&18 and God destroys this great enemy of the Cross we should absolute praise God for her destruction. I don’t care who it is, be it America, The European Union, Mexico, China, Canada, RCC or whoever, we should rejoice with angels in heaven over her destruction. I would warn anyone that whoever it is don’t weep over her destruction, but praise God for His justice and judgment.”I would have to say that I agree with GrannieAnnie and more importantly Rev 18:20Quote:“It doesn't sound, in those chpts that God is too pleased with Babylon and says in Rev 18:20 "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." So it doesn't appear that the poster was being unmerciful here and if we say Rev 18:20 is not our sentiments, then are we saying we are more merciful or holier than God, in a way?So no matter what place Babylon may be, then we have to look at Rev 18 and then 18:20 and try to get the mind of Christ, as He wrote it.”Compton, your comments are inspiring and thought provoking but in conflict and opposition to Rev. 18:20 (the Word, Will, and Heart of God) With that being said your comments remind me of the following:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~--O my soul, my soul! I am pained in my very heart! My heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, Because you have heard, O my soul, The sound of the trumpet, The alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried, For the whole land is plundered. Suddenly my tents are plundered, And my curtains in a moment. How long will I see the standard, And hear the sound of the trumpet? “ For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.” --Righteous are You, O LORD, when I plead with You; Yet let me talk with You about Your judgments. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why are those happy who deal so treacherously? You have planted them, yes, they have taken root; They grow, yes, they bear fruit. You are near in their mouth But far from their mind. But You, O LORD, know me; You have seen me, And You have tested my heart toward You. Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, And prepare them for the day of slaughter. How long will the land mourn, And the herbs of every field wither? The beasts and birds are consumed, For the wickedness of those who dwell there, Because they said, “He will not see our final end.” The LORD Answers “ If you have run with the footmen, and they have wearied you, Then how can you contend with horses? And if in the land of peace, In which you trusted, they wearied you,Then how will you do in the floodplain of the Jordan? For even your brothers, the house of your father, Even they have dealt treacherously with you; Yes, they have called a multitude after you. Do not believe them, Even though they speak smooth words to you. “ I have forsaken My house, I have left My heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of My soul into the hand of her enemies. My heritage is to Me like a lion in the forest; It cries out against Me; Therefore I have hated it. My heritage is to Me like a speckled vulture; The vultures all around are against her. Come, assemble all the beasts of the field, Bring them to devour! “ Many rulers have destroyed My vineyard, They have trodden My portion underfoot; They have made My pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. They have made it desolate; Desolate, it mourns to Me; The whole land is made desolate, Because no one takes it to heart. The plunderers have come On all the desolate heights in the wilderness, For the sword of the LORD shall devour From one end of the land to the other end of the land; No flesh shall have peace. They have sown wheat but reaped thorns; They have put themselves to pain but do not profit. But be ashamed of your harvest Because of the fierce anger of the LORD.” --Then the LORD said to me, “Do not pray for this people, for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I will not accept them. But I will consume them by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.” Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, the prophets say to them, ‘You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place.’” And the LORD said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, whom I did not send, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not be in this land’—‘By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed! And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; they will have no one to bury them—them nor their wives, their sons nor their daughters—for I will pour their wickedness on them.’ “Therefore you shall say this word to them: ‘ Let my eyes flow with tears night and day, And let them not cease; For the virgin daughter of my people Has been broken with a mighty stroke, with a very severe blow. If I go out to the field, Then behold, those slain with the sword! And if I enter the city, Then behold, those sick from famine! Yes, both prophet and priest go about in a land they do not know.’”-- Jeremiah’s DejectionWoe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest. Every one of them curses me. O LORD, You know; Remember me and visit me, And take vengeance for me on my persecutors. In Your enduring patience, do not take me away. Know that for Your sake I have suffered rebuke. Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts. I did not sit in the assembly of the mockers, Nor did I rejoice; I sat alone because of Your hand, For You have filled me with indignation. Why is my pain perpetual And my wound incurable, Which refuses to be healed? Will You surely be to me like an unreliable stream, As waters that fail? The LORD Reassures JeremiahTherefore thus says the LORD: “ If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile, You shall be as My mouth. Let them return to you, But you must not return to them. And I will make you to this people a fortified bronze wall; And they will fight against you, But they shall not prevail against you; For I am with you to save you And deliver you,” says the LORD. “ I will deliver you from the hand of the wicked, And I will redeem you from the grip of the terrible.”Jeremiah’s Unpopular MinistryO LORD, You induced me, and I was persuaded; You are stronger than I, and have prevailed. I am in derision daily; Everyone mocks me. For when I spoke, I cried out; I shouted, “Violence and plunder!” Because the word of the LORD was made to me A reproach and a derision daily. Then I said, “I will not make mention of Him, Nor speak anymore in His name.” But His word was in my heart like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, And I could not. For I heard many mocking: “ Fear on every side!” “ Report,” they say, “and we will report it!” All my acquaintances watched for my stumbling, saying,“ Perhaps he can be induced; Then we will prevail against him, And we will take our revenge on him.” But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten. But, O LORD of hosts, You who test the righteous, And see the mind and heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them; For I have pleaded my cause before You. Sing to the LORD! Praise the LORD! For He has delivered the life of the poor From the hand of evildoers. Cursed be the day in which I was born! Let the day not be blessed in which my mother bore me! Let the man be cursed Who brought news to my father, saying, “ A male child has been born to you!” Making him very glad. And let that man be like the cities Which the LORD overthrew, and did not relent; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon, Because he did not kill me from the womb, That my mother might have been my grave, And her womb always enlarged with me. Why did I come forth from the womb to see labor and sorrow, That my days should be consumed with shame? --“ Behold, I am against you, O most haughty one!” says the Lord GOD of hosts; “ For your day has come, The time that I will punish you. The most proud shall stumble and fall, And no one will raise him up; I will kindle a fire in his cities, And it will devour all around him.” Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Babylon, And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them. At the noise of the taking of Babylon The earth trembles, And the cry is heard among the nations.--Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD’s vengeance; He shall recompense her. Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD’s hand, That made all the earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; Therefore the nations are deranged. O you who dwell by many waters, Abundant in treasures, Your end has come, The measure of your covetousness.”Jeremiah 4:19-22, Jeremiah 12:1-13, Jeremiah 14:11-18, Jeremiah 15:10-21, Jeremiah 50:31-32, Jeremiah 51:6-7And Then..........[font=Arial]the book of Lamentations[/font] :-o

you are a wise man.I'm going to have to show that comment to my kids! :lol: Thanks CIK,As always you provide a thoughtful answer. Exchanges with you are always productive brother.Without disagreeing with you...let me observe that I'm not sure if quoting Jeremiah's dejection and his Lamentations is a case for your perspective or if it's a case for the one I put forth. Perhaps the only way to appreciate God's heart on this issue is to embrace both perspectives...a just righteousness and a deep sorrow over man's destruction.Bless you brother,MC

Quote:"let me observe that I'm not sure if quoting Jeremiah's dejection and his Lamentations is a case for your perspective or if it's a case for the one I put forth."I felt that it provided challenges, thoughts and insights into both perspectives put forth.How we feel or view things before the wrath of falls can change (and remain the same) in certain ways after the wrath of God has come.Although some of our thinking or feeling may remain the same, both us will most likely feel drastically different in certain areas of though and perspective ex post facto.