This recent comment provokes me to raise something which has increasingly troubled me in recent weeks.Now please, no lengthy theories, use ten words or less for each answer. Please respond via PM. I wonder if the writer realises that this strikes at the whole heart and purpose of the 'forums'. To take a conversation 'off-line' in the way suggested is to deprive the whole community of the opportunity of listening to the discussion. It is the equivalent of entering a common lounge and inviting someone to leave the conversation so that you can continue it in private. In normal space I would consider that a breach of social etiquette. I think it is somewhat similar in cyber-space. At the least, I would suggest that as this is basically 'Greg's Lounge' it would be a courtesy to ask him if it were appropriate to take someone outside to talk to them. I know it happens and I know that some folks spend a fair amount of time in personal pm-ing. My own view is that this deprives people of the some of the safety valves of a public forum. It opens up the way for private and sectarian spirited people to drive secret wedges between the saints and to profer private counsels which would be challenged in the open forums. In my view, this is an abuse of the facility.What do you think?
The use and abuse of 'private mail'.
Personally, I don't think it is worth worrying about.Michael
Ron, I saw that post and felt uneasy about it for two reasons.That demand of 10 words or less is rude and telling the person "how" or "where" to respond is rude.But I think the PM thing is a good question.If Greg is paying for web-space, and all folks do is sign on to PM and not post, which goes on all nite and day here. Just PMing and no posting At All, it just seems, as you say, that maybe we are taking advantage of Greg's lounge, so to speak. We can't say, "I don't think it's worth worrying about", when someone else is flipping the bill for us to come here and express ourselves freely and fellowship at his expense. I dunno. Guess we'd have to ask Greg. :-?
What i was saying, sometimes personal messages are necessary, so to call them bad all over is a bad thing, if people are using only PM and to attack others or to gossip etc, then that most certainly is bad.The 'demands' could be considered rude, especially the way the person who wrote that message.Michael
Hi Ron,My perspective on this is that private messaging is a very helpful facility in this sort of environment. It enables little misunderstandings to be clarified, apologies which are basically private between brethren who don't know each other very well, and questons of all kinds to be answered, without disturbing the flow of threads, some of which would be completely ruined if the entire forum had to keep stopping while this or that was publicly addressed. Like any communication, though, one has to bear oneself before God knowing nothing is secret to Him, and aware He will have His own way of bringing correction, if one is honestly willing to be corrected. Yes a pm can be used to express dismay behind the scenes but, this dismay would find expression in 3D if it were a 3D situation. To deny this is disingenuous. There will always be a need for some things to be expressed privately and working out what falls into this category is part of growing up in Christ.There is always the option for anyone who has a problem with pms, to stop using them completely and to discipline themselves by returning them unanswered, with a short explanation to the sender. This is the same principle as going to the pub with your friends for a good chat but, having a soft drink instead of a beer - if you can't handle beer.
Can I flex my computer geekiness (if that's a word)? PM stands for Private Message. :-P If it does stand for Private Mail, I've never heard it called that. ;-)I agree Ron. There is no reason to post a thread that says something to the effect of "don't respond to this post but just PM me." That takes away from what the forum is used for.I use PMs, but only when I have a quick question/comment about something that really doesn't relate to the thread or if I don't want anyone else to respond (not very often do I do this). I think if you are going to use PMs back and forth frequently, just use Yahoo messenger or MSN.
Oh yeah, well I agree with everyone on here :-P , (ha) PMs from others have been a real blessing to me, and when used to edify or ask personal questions, they sure have helped an awful lot and I am grateful for them.I guess we were just discussing the abuses. Gossip would probably be the burger biggie on that end. Or just using this site 'just' for the PMs and not for posting. That would be using someone else's webspace money for something we could do with our own emails.Edit to say. Good points from everybody, and I especially like SMILIES. :-D
I know it happens and I know that some folks spend a fair amount of time in personal pm-ing. My own view is that this deprives people of the some of the safety valves of a public forum. It opens up the way for private and sectarian spirited people to drive secret wedges between the saints and to profer private counsels which would be challenged in the open forums. In my view, this is an abuse of the facility.I personally think brother Ron is onto something here. There seems to be alot of personal advice being flown around especially in the private discussions. I do see the benefit of this type of communication but when it comes down to serious issues having it in more of a public setting makes sense for accountability purposes. And if the issue is very serious then it SHOULD NOT even being discussed online with someone and you should be talking with your pastor, elders or another godly brother or sister. I do think people should refrain from directing communication into the private but rather allow the communication on certain topics to be in the open. This is a worthwhile issue to be discussed and thought about.
is this not a control issue ?who's in control ... the owner of this site? the creator of a thread ? or the Holy Spirit ?I'm utterly with sister Dorcas, in that to expect PM's to be dis-allowed would be tantamount to in an assembly setting - disallowing any single relationships/friendships to form ... and everything be said "before the Church" utterlyhow very unrealisticif anyone's been around christian discussion boards online, one has easily seen the dynamics of what dorcas said- It enables little misunderstandings to be clarified, apologies which are basically private between brethren who don't know each other very well, and questons of all kinds to be answered, without disturbing the flow of threads, some of which would be completely ruined if the entire forum had to keep stopping while this or that was publicly addressed. It seems the part I've underlined in dorcas' words is basically something Bro Ron is drawing attention to. This is quite an unhealthy picture, and I've seen it too many times to count on other discussion boards, and sadly, on this one.Let us be accountable to Christ, and let His Spirit rule us as we seek to communicate something that is more appropriate 'in private' ... or as we seek to share it with the general audience overall.This would be one big cult with a control center, I think, if we were to dis-allow such private context, would it not ?Bro Ron, I PM'd you last week, as you're well aware ... with words that I'd not have liked to bring to the board as a whole, so as to shield you from having to defend yourself in a public setting. Would you rather I'd had done that ?Wisdom separates what is appropriate for private vs general audience.Sadly 'factions' occur, online ... as in a face-to-face assembly. Let the Spirit deal with the hearts of those that align toward 'faction'.Let the Freedom of the Spirit have reign on this board, and let us all be grown up enough to take accountability for ourselves before His gaze.True fellowship is a River we can't control.baruch
Bro Ron, I PM'd you last week, as you're well aware ... with words that I'd not have liked to bring to the board as a whole, so as to shield you from having to defend yourself in a public setting. Would you rather I'd had done that ?That will be the one where you called me an 'empty gourd' I expect? You wouldn't be the first. When you have been on this site a little longer you will know that I never defend myself, only my ideas.
who's in control ... the owner of this site? the creator of a thread ? or the Holy Spirit ?That's easy, Greg and his fellow moderators, under the guidance and counsel of the Spirit. If I were not willing to submit to the guidance and counsel of the moderators I would not post on this site in the same way that if I could not submit to the guidance and counsel of elders in a local church I would not be part of that church. Refusal to recognise true spiritual authority always results in spiritual anarchy.
Ron is making a very good point. I am with him on this. I am not a big fan of pm's- unless they are to say a quick 'hi' or to relay a needed message.If we settle our 'differences' behind the scenes (via pm's) it can turn into gossip, backbiting and unneccessary talk that could hurt. I like the idea of being accountable for the words we speak. If we can't say something to someone on the forum to someone, maybe it shouldn't be said at all.I think that people can get in the habit of being two faced : "O, i agree with your post, I do not agree with his. Why would so and so say that?" It reminds me of gossip.This forum is different than other forums most people have been on. It doesn't have to follow the same 'routine' as other forums- and thank the Lord it iS different. I would hope that members here would be wiling to put others before themselves and to show self-control (something I need as well).I am not saying that there should not be pm's, just that we need to watch it because it can be a stumbling block, a source of gossip and contention and even manipulation. I definitely don't think we should ever talk about someone else or their post behind the scenes. I have learned this the hard way.But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.Mat 12:36In His love, Chanin
As a second thought, I think that Greg's decision a while back not to allow posts to be deleted (unless absolutely necessary) keeps people accountable for their words. It causes us to think twice about what we're going to say and that they will be lasting- no erasing. I think this was a wise decision. I think we can think of pm's in the same light. Pm's are too easily done very quickly and without alot of thought to the consequences.Just my thoughts... :-) -Chanin
Chanin,Thank you for the comments you are right on and just add to the proper concern that Ron has.if anyone's been around christian discussion boards online, one has easily seen the dynamics of what dorcas said-As stated by Chanin these forums are not the same as other forums on the internet. I believe God has His hand on them in a certain way and praise Him for that. At this time I am going to leave the private messaging in place but I would highly encourage discussions to primarly be done out in the public forums.For the reason that there is name calling, backbitting etc. For example what this brother called Ron is what I would deem one of 2,3 warnings and then I would delete the account from the site. I know there is many bad things happening in the pms that I don't read. I probably could but that would be an invasion of privacy. So as Ron states that behoves the whole question if they are necessary and condone the best behaviour. Please people use this capability rightly.
Satan is the author of confusion here. With the Lord's grace, I will attempt to expose something that should have been kept under wraps ... which will show why there is wisdom in dealing with things that require truth - in PM's.I will set out to show what my words to Brother Ron were about, which he has sought to portray ( by just taking a 'sound bite' from the entirety of many imploring words to him that he was doing a sister a dis-service )in a maliciously negative light.Ron your behavior in this regard, should not be, from one your age .. and your age in Christ.I gave you a straight out rebuke, for your trampling with your Theological Scalpel ... the poem of a sister's heart in here on a thread.If I would have gone to that thread to post my rebuke, that only would have added controversy to this site.Wisdom did not require that I take that course.Greg, may you take this as an object lesson, in the value of PM-usage. Would you prefer, as site administrator, a brother outright rebuking another controversially in a thread ... thereby de-railing it & its theme --- or would you rather it be handled in PM ... if the rebuke was necessary ? If you don't see the wisdom in this, then you may have a raucous board, which there has been plenty of raucousness in past threads in the preceding months.Brother Ron's pride and flesh could not handle being rebuked for being a theological "scribe" over the heart poem of a precious sister on here. Thus he has had to bring this out into the open. And bring this out into the open we will, if that's what you want. ( Greg and Ron )I reiterate, that I've seen these strategems in past instances on discussion boards, which made me shudder to get involved here. I could see such malarkey coming. But yet, a saint here encouraged me to get involved.If you can't handle a simple rebuke in a private PM ( done privately so as not to EMBARRASS you before an entire board, Ron ) .... and your tactic, rather than going before the Lord and asking Him - did I do the sister in question wrong, by trampling on her poem with my scalpel - needlessly ?rather than taking this holy approach, that a disciple would ... you have endeavored to make me look bad.Well done !I saw it coming.I can smell such potential in Christians miles away.Oh the childishness on Christian Discussion Boards ..... what petty kingdoms we build on here .... with our words ... and the fear we have, when it seems that some come in love to us, to offer the 'wounds of a friend' .... and we take that as a mortal threat, and thereby need to bring into the open to smear the 'wounder' ... what ought have remained in private.Greg, may you gain wisdom in this whole affair ... regardless of your estimation of myself ( whom you don't know too well ) or Ron. May you gain wisdom in how to run this board, in future years and months, by this bad example of peevish childishness.I could easily offer evidence to the board of how insensitive was Brother Ron's scalpeling of someone's poem, but I won't -- because again, wisdom requires that I not bring it out into the open, for I suspect that the particular writer of the poem cares not to be in the center of a 'controversy'.Are you going to drag that saint into the 'controversy', Brother Ron .... out of your desire to deflect the spotlight on yourself ? I hope not.If you are a leader in your congregation, Ron .... boy, the Lord has so much to teach you about discretion.How sad that this had to happen ... but how not unexpected.I will be very happy to depart from this petty kingdom, and let Ron declare "victory" to himself and pat himself on the shoulder.I don't need it.Nor does the Lord need me here. But I suspect some need this message board more than the Lord needs them here.Talk about 'faction' and 'heresy' Ron ... look at what you've just done. Seeking to create a 'faction' against lil ole me ..... baruch_48 the big dog that needs to be tarnished as a "name caller"For the record - to Brother Greg .... the full context of my words to Brother Ron were that "when you correct and prooftext someone's precious poem from their heart ... you are being a mere empty gourd"The Lord sees through pedantry, which looks to the correctness of theology, rather than looking at the person's heart.I even told Ron that I agreed with him, theologically on that matter, but it was terrible of him to 'prooftext' the person's precious poem. ( their heart )If the lot of you cannot see my heart innocence in this matter, then jolly ! This is the last I will stoop to defend my conscience, heart, and innocence before the saints.You owe me a big apology Ron .......but it'll take humility before our Lord.Enough said.May this be a learning episode for the Kingdom minded.
And let me add, Brother Ron ... if you and I were to meet face-to-face .. I would stare a hole through you, and you would melt in your guiltiness over this.The Lord have mercy on a brother your age acting this way
Baruch,There is a difference between a rebuke--which is done in love and kindness--and flaming another person. You not only have crossed that line but you've blown it away. Please do not post any further in this thread.Moderator,Jeremy Hulsey
baruch and friends,I'd still rather blame it all on solar flares, or the barametric pressure, because we're getting rain here today for the first time in about a month and a half.All joking aside, I'm posting now, in case I get a name change later on today, and then of course, wouldn't be able to sign on.But, I posted my heart on your thread baruch, on the Revival board, and I guess, after that, really let 'er rip elsewheres.But I hope someone will read it, most especially page 2 of your David Wilkerson thread there.I think you are very human baruch, and I am glad to know that now. I wasn't sure before, and was afraid, but now I'm not afraid of you, because you showed yourself without a fascade.Maybe this second little post may not fly well, but it's no where near what I've done in the past 2 days. :-( Whatever happens, I really like up front honesty and no matter if we argue or not, to not give up on praying for each other. I'll see you guys, here, there, or in the air anyhowz.Love anyhowz too.AnnieJeremy, your post wasn't there when I posted this.Seems I'm misunderstanding things too.
brethrenthis has been a pretty interesting discussion and at this time i feel led of the Lord to say a few things. I feel that whatever is said in a p.m. is said in confidence and is better kept between the parties involved. If one were to betray that, then the other side of the story should be told so that it’s not one-sided. That being said Bro Ron it was not necessary to bring out any of what baruch said to make your acknowledge to everyone that you got a p.m. from him. you could have simply said yes or no concerning the p.m. and stated whether you would rather have had that message put on the forum for all to read or mailed to you privately to answer the question. Whether you meant it or not your response looks like you were trying to paint baruch to be the villain. Baruch is certainly not the first you’ve treated with such contempt but I guess he’s the first to call you out on it. He seems to have exposed in his response a fleshly pride in you bro Ron that many of us here and beyond have been shown and yet have done you a disservice and said nothing about it to you. There is indeed a pride in you that between the Lord and yourself must be dealt with. Brethren let us not be shy of calling out things which are not of God in each other. it’s better to be offended for a time and have the Lord deal with us and correct us than to have to answer to the Lord on the last day for that thing.
I've read all the posts and this is how I use the pm system personally. I think I've pm'ed less than 2 dozen times since coming here. I do feel that much of what is said here should be spoken in the open since the internet , generally speaking, opens itself up to all manner of persons. Keeping things public will keep the temptation for private sins and or the occassion of the flesh , better accountability.Generally speaking if I rebuke I do so publically , directly and in as few words as possible. If I pm someone it's usually to inquire, encourage and pray for someone. I do believe caution should be exercised at all times since we really don't know each other and over time I've observed that most people who post give no details to who they are in the bio- page, but they tend to use these forums as a platform to air thier ideologies. That I believe is wrong, ethically speaking.Commonsense is a good measuring stick to use. God bless Bro. Daryl
baruch_48 , there is a sense in which we have to trust each others heart, the very motive behind the comment or statement. I do believe if thoughs here who write poems, songs stories etc...would be willing to accept wise correction, they could strive to produce somethng of excellence that the Lord would take and prehaps send around the world to edify and encourage His bride.We need to extend the mercy of Christ toward others that we expect to recieve from Jesus :-) I've observed some things about Bro. Ron, he likes to stretch our abilities, make us think, reflect, ask questions. And though we may disagree on somethings, I believe I can trust his heart, the spirit with in witnessing to much of what he writes here. Our Love is suposed to cover each others multitude of sins. Bro. Daryl
Ironman wrote:Baruch is certainly not the first you’ve treated with such contempt but I guess he’s the first to call you out on it.This is a personal observation. There is apparently a common tendency in those who take offense on the posts of others. The subsequent answers become personal. One of the dangers in this kind of forum is to assign motivation to a post. Scripture is very clear that even if the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? I read and reread Bro. Ron's recent and older posts that triggered such personal attacks just to make sure but for the life of me I couldn't find contempt or malice in those. Or even pride. There seems to be a difficulty of dealing with people who oppose or disagree with our ideas. Many times the response was posted because the person is offended. More than once, posts came as a surprise like a viper coming out nowhere to bite because the response is full of bitterness. The answers expose the heart of the person. People and circumstances don't cause us to manifest unChristlike behavior (or posts) but rather just trigger what is in our hearts in the first place. If we are looking for malice or contempt, I believe that disqualifies us from giving an honest opinion because we'll surely find one. This reminds me of what the mother of Samuel Chadwick said: "You cannot tell the truth about people you don't like, and therefore the first duty you owe them is silence."I understand Jesus never defended himself against the personal attacks and insults of others. If ever He did, it was in the defense of the truth and honor of the Father. May He heal us of the wounds that this issue has generated.
There is a great deal of forbearance on this site, a great deal. But and to reiterate this kind of open slander and there is a vast difference between what one might consider 'rebuke' and intent to exalt ones self over another, careless, emotionally charged words without thought, a dividing, a schism, a taking sides... This all will push those boundaries to a breaking point. A part of this forbearance is that reconciliation can be made, openly, wrongs righted, faults admitted, forgiveness sought.Something glaringly missed through this whole issue brought forth is in some of these responses. That they are making the point themselves.First off their is absolutely no room for any of this sectarian spirit here. Public or private. If an issue is bothersome in public here it needs to be addressed where it was found and might I add once again that there is far too much reading into things that ought to reflect a self examination. Again and again and again... A question is not necessarily a statement, but a question. It was mentioned rightly in another thread, many are far too easily offended and sometimes due to a faulty perception other members here are looked at with a jaundiced eye that colors everything and begins to twist the mind towards this "I know your type mindset". It is pure rubbish and grievous. Keep in mind that this is not in isolation but before a whole body of believers that spans great distance in culture, upbringing, spiritual knowledge and yes history. There are some longstanding members here who have greatly benefited this site like our friend Ron, Philologos and I take a great deal of umbrage at this slighting, that is far different from being offended or coming to the defense and furthering a dividing into 'camps'. This is and was the point of this whole discussion at least in part. If you cannot say it in public you ought not be stating it in private. This is intolerable amongst Christians, what manner of Spirit are we?This isn't offensive, it's repulsive. And it needs to stop right now.I would suggest that those who have responded here re-read your own words carefully and mark the haughtiness and open slander, it is overt in some places and uncanny that it is not recognized by the writers themselves. Some of who have made the point of all this explicitly by their reactions, what is seething underneath that brings out these things?Misunderstandings are always going to be present in this medium, but this forecasting, presumptions, reading into things, making assumptions about brethren is appalling. Judging the words or ideas used is right and helpful if we are to learn from each other, but these personal attacks, character assumptions and assassinations, high-mindedness ... how is it that the very things that can be discussed fail to be reflective of the Christlike Spirit that ought to be evident? That the very words of our lips are not indicting the writers themselves? Is it our particular opinions are worth more in this setting than the greater good and that one never knows who may be peering in on these things?And the greatest and foremost thought...Does the Lord not see?
Forbearance Thank you for bringing this subject back up!I want to interupt this thread a moment and comment on how much it makes me grateful, O, how thankful I am that I am not the same as I was when I first came to this forum. The Lord has used this forum to change me and grow me in forbearance. And I knew that I needed to. I didn't see it all happening when it did happen, but I can look back and see it now. Not that I am where I would like to be. I am still learning and pressing on....I can look back two years ago and see how I was presumptious. I was offended easily. I had much "self" to die to still- and probably still do ;-) I can look back and see how I withdrew and sometimes lashed back because of offense. O, how my pride came shining through!If we will just let these things show us what's truly in our hearts and let these things chnage us and grow us to become more of Him and less of us. I look at it like that, what comes against me (sometimes is just coming against my flesh), what tribulations and trials i have (even in arguments, etc...) God is working to make me LESS.Until you really get to know someone.... Let me say as one who has been on this forum for quite awhile (not as long as Ron or Mike :-)) but just when you think you know someone, you don't. God likes to take our prideful, little know-it-all selves and show us that HE is the only one who knows it all- and it doesn't feel nice when that happens. Just for the record, I am only talking about myself here and no one else."...let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"------------I have saved this little bit on Forbearance for a long time and I never get tired of haivng to read it:"Forbearance is reasonableness and consideration in dealing with others. To have forbearance is to deal with others without strictness of legal right. If we would live a calm life, we must have forbearance.Forbearance includes patience and moderation, but goes beyond them. If you have forbearance, you will not argue with others, fight with them, or debate with them. You may have a great deal to say, but you will have patience and moderation in dealing with others and will not say anything in response to provocation or irritation. Forbearance is versus rivalry and vainglory, two negative things mentioned by Paul. Forbearance is also opposed to murmurings and reasonings. Whenever we have rivalry, vainglory, murmurings, and reasonings, there is no calm, no tranquility, no forbearance."In His love, Chanin
Hi TheophilusMD...!I really appreciate your comments. Sometimes, I do feel that the rebukes on the forums can be quite personal, or concern doctrinal positions that are not completely settled. I also feel that such rebukes, as carried out in the forums, do not meet the Biblical standard for rebukes. I wrote the following in another thread a few days ago:Recently, I began reading about the biblical definition of rebukes. I sometimes fear that the rebukes found in the pages of forum threads are far too public than they should be. I am not talking about an open rebuke from Greg (sermonindex). I am talking about constant rebukes from one another over certain issues of doctrine or belief. The Bible is quite clear about the way a rebuke ought to be carried out. First of all, the offense requiring such a rebuke should be obvious from the Scriptures. Secondly, the rebuke is meant to be helpful. Third, the initial rebukes are meant to be private. And if the rebuke is ignored (and the sin is ongoing), the rebuke can become public (first with another person, then with elders, and finally within the Church). If someone still doesn't listen and they openly continue to sin, then there is the step of disfellowship (Matthew 7:1-5; Romans 14:13; Leviticus 19:17-19; I Corinthians 1:10-11; 4:14-21; 5:1; 11:20-21; 13:1-7; II Corinthians 10:1; Galations 6:1; Philippians 2:1-3; I Thessalonians 2:7-11; Hebrews 12:6; Revelation 2:1-21; 3:19). But the open rebukes found in our forums are often heated -- and concern debatable doctrinal positions (rather than sin). And often, they seem to be confrontational rather than edifying. In effect, what starts as a "loving rebuke" turns into a heated argument. May God help us to show such love and compassion in our words!*EDIT*-I have really enjoyed the PM feature here at SermonIndex (even though I don't use it very often). Ever-so-often, someone comes online who hasn't been here for a while, and it is a good way to let us know that they are here! It is also a private way to let someone know that you are praying for a particular situation that a person might not want out in the public. :-)
Having been one who has received similar treatment as what crssck and baruch spoke of, and seeing it done to others from the same sources, I suppose it all depends on 'where' it's coming from. Some can get away with judging hearts and motives and openly rebuking, some cannot. Some stealthfully, others blatantly.Chanin, I too have been 'changed' here ... like most internet places, you have the elite and those who will compromise truth to stay in good with them, or to have a better or safer position with those on top. And those on the top, need no other qualifier for being there but to have the money or desire to buy webspace. No other credentials are required to be an authority or authority figure.Cyberspace has offered anyone the chance to be 'somebody', just by acquiring a URL or by serving one whom has. I've seen people actually make up a non-existent "identity" for themselves with websites and going so far as claiming to be this or that, when actually they were none of that in real life. Claiming to be Missionaries, Pastors, you name it, and making their website to bring glory to themselves. I've even seen entire sites based solely upon what had been plagiarized from others.Never before in the history of the Church, can anybody buy themselves world wide coverage or position.Sort of changes the whole concept of how THE BODY OF CHRIST is supposed to operate.My change is not for hopefulness. It has only caused me to say, despite those I've grown to love, that self-righteousness comes in many forms, some out front, some intellectually stealthfull ... and I'd rather deal with folks who are openly human and who know they are, then those who've worked their way to what they see as some sort of Top or some comfortable position near the top, merely to be somebody or have their place or Some place in cyberspace.The change in me is seeing, that there are different rules for different folks, all dependent on their position on the URL. One can dismember people in the view of the entire world on a public internet site, but others dare not touch those who sit as the Untouchables, on that higher level of this totem pole type system called Christian websites. Totem pole systems do not exist in the actual Body of Christ, but on Christian Forums or websites, they do.The higher one is on this Christian totem pole system, the more the rules change.If you are near the top, you can email each other and discuss the 'underlings', but the underlings PMs will be watched, that they are not doing the same.I know the Forum system very well, because I was in it ... on all levels.Equality does not exist, nor equality in the rules of decency. The same rules we ourselves would require out of our own Churches.The change in me, makes me feel hopeless and feeling that this general pecking order that exists on most 'Christian' Forums, (but should not, according to God's view of The Body of Christ), is the same, no matter what 'appears' to be the spoken goal or focus of the general Site.My change is that, it's been reconfirmed to me that the only safe place, where 'accountability' can really be engaged, is in face to face, flesh and blood, in person type meetings of the Saints.In cyberspace, one can just click here or there and dispose of people ... say things they would never dare say, if face to face in a Church setting, but 'can' here, because of the position they've made for themselves in cyberspace.On websites disinformation about another human is rampant and fairness is secondary to one's desire to maintain their position on The Net.At least if things go sour within the four walls of a church, only those within the four walls are aware of it ... here, because actual faces are not seen, the actual 'flesh and blood' of the person or the time taken to actually get to know someone's life, then 'whatever' can be done to them without a chance of self-defense on their part, those being so blindly judged by those who have climbed closer to the top of the pole, can get away with the subtlest forms of hypocrisy, subtle attack, or stealthful self-righteousness, where we have to just take some people's word for what they say they 'are' or "have become since being here" and the same form of judging and gossip that they do, is phobically watched so that it is not happening between or by the underlings.And what one sees in themselves as "growth", can be nothing more than "compromise", just to be accepted by those is some position or the desiring of some position in cyberspace themselves. They'll even disgrace their own family members to get that cyberspace image. Whatever it takes. Compromising with the True Truth, that we'll all have to stand before God one day about, just to make a name, where they had no name prior to The Internet.This has changed me too. I no longer am a 'forum person' and will stay in the safer places; of being with flesh and blood members of One Body, who have to look others in the eyes when they say things, and cannot take a position of being more of an elite type that can discuss others behind their back but feel justified in doing so, because of their self acquired position or because they flattered their way to be near those who've made their own way to some top.In a good Church, Cast systems do not exist ... flattery for position is seen for what it is, members are not dismembered publicly by the leadership, there is equal accountability because the Pastors and elders can be fired, people cannot be discussed without them being present, the playing field is leveler .... but again, that is only in a Church that sees, in our flesh dwells no good thing, literally sees, and that the hearts of ALL of us are equal (desperately wicked), despite position or what we say we are inwardly and that one cannot buy themselves a position as one can in cyberspace.No, as long as this Cast system exists, it is not The Church. But nothing is hidden from the True Owner of the Universe that cyberspace is just a Very miniscule part of.I can truthfully say, my only benefit of having been here, was those I leave with in my heart only.Either way, see we'll see each other, face to face, sure enough, when The Boss Comes Back.
Whatever the intent is here if this is being directed at this particular forum, none of what you have said applies. This could not be further from the truth.This straw man doesn't exist, why try and prop one up? For life of me where this idea of a pecking order comes from ... this is a self fulfing prophecy, but it has not and will not be one to come to pass here God willing.If you are near the top, you can email each other and discuss the 'underlings', but the underlings PMs will be watched, that they are not doing the same.Again, if that is intended to apply here you are sadly mistaken and that is quite a charge to be leveled without any supporting evidence.I am not sure just what causes these underlining suspicions and accusations it is all rather disheartening. If anything to attempt to be set apart from the 'norm' if it must be put that way, is not to exhalt nor to degrade anybody else's way of going about things. But there has been a tremendous effort of heart, sweat and tears to just attempt to mitigate all that goes on here. To just have some real discussion and sharing of this incredible life with the Lord and with each other. There is such a vast resource here and it is all freely given. How sad that it has to be attempted to be brought down to the gutter of so much triffling over so many misconceptions, that personal injuries are taken to heart so easily and the whole incredible reach just overlooked.There is a different perspective to be seen. From this angle it is one of great humility and yet responsibility and great honor and greater trepidation. There have been many failings and sure to be many more.. I am sorry Annie, but this is just not true and I am sorry if you cannot see it any other way.
I read some of the forum posts - occassionally use PM, but what I enjoy most is listening to and watching the sermons.I said that to say that maybe I've missed it by not reading all the threads, but I'm not sure where all the bitterness is coming from. Greg, Mike, and the other moderators seem to do a great job of getting sermons uploaded and moderating forums. Let's support them, not tear them down. Kendal
I can't say its worth much, but I have two comments.Pride is confusing.And even in public places, it is quite possible to wait for an appropriate time to talk quietly with somebody off in a corner. In a party of thousands, conversations can easily go unabated amongst two.
Mike, I had hoped to not have to come back on to explain what was meant in my "indirect" comments above, but if you'd prefer a living model rather than what you called a "strawman", would that have made it better ?I could bring up last Sunday on the Announcement board, that initially started with emails between some judges who made the final decision together.I could bring up a point by point example of each sentence I wrote, by pulling quotes and showing the very words of those examples ... but I was trying my very best to speak in such generalities, so that maybe some of us could 'see' and not do those things again to others.Even on page one of this thread, there is proof of what I mentioned above, and I could pull that quote and others on the board like it ... but again ... I'm not as monstrous as you may presume. Far from perfect, but not out for blood.I may not prefer this method of communicating any longer, but even with my intent to leave, I kept the generalities as just that, so that , maybe there could be a more open approach and level playing field, so that large exposes would never be comtemplated again, etc. no matter to whom they are directed.I pray that we all can see ourselves in everything we write to others, and not feel that because our "words appear" more "polite or polished" than others, that they may not be just as cutting or arrogant.Words can camouflage an awful lot, if not read with discernment.I didn't write the above out of 'my' being offended, or to bring down a whole system, but that others could possibly see where we are ALL GUILTY, despite our tone or choice of words. And we're ALL GUILTY because we are all flesh, and in our flesh dwellth NO GOOD THING.Or does someone disagree with that also ?We can be saying what appears to be so polite and condescending etc. but it can be the epitome of pride at the same time."I thank God I'm not as mean and nasty as Annie, or ________."
We have practically turned this thread into a witch hunt. I would motion that it be locked.
I think it is worth repeating from p2 of this thread, that sermonindex (Greg Gordon, site owner) said:I know there is many bad things happening in the pms that I don't read. I probably could but that would be an invasion of privacy. We need to trust Greg's word on this.Also, I would say, if you were the person who needed Greg to back you up in a legal case, because of something which had transpired through naive or malicious use of pms, you'd be glad he had the facility to read exactly what had been said privately. His potential access to pms is a safety mechansism which, just like we trust him not to abuse, he trusts us not to attract undue attention to our pms by our misuse of the facility.Even if Greg could not investigate our mail, the Audience of One (thanks, Jesse) is always reading what we write, and searching in our hearts to find an increase there, of the righteousness He died to make available to us.This doesn't mean we stop being natural and human but rather we aspire that our naturalness and humanity become more like His.I have learned a lot about how to use or not use pms since I came to this site, but I take it all as part of my growth as a Christian. Please don't leave this post thinking that I think 'I've arrived'.... Travelling.... that's more like it.
cccchhhhhhrrrriissss, did you get Matt 18:15 also? another way Jesus teaches us how to rebuke in love a right way. any serious talk can be seen as confrontational or even judgmental, but we prayerfully do our best even if misunderstandings come along.(Matt 18:15-17 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more withyou, so that by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Hi rocklife...!Thank you! That is a wonderful passage when confronting a brother or sister in sin. The problem is that many people apply that same passage when having a doctrinal dispute with someone. Unfortunately, I've noticed a divisive attitude that often seems to interfere with discussing certain doctrinal beliefs. I am a believer. I met the Lord while walking out in a field one night at a summer camp as a teen -- and then began my pilgrimage with the Lord. The very next day, I began diligently seeking and spending time with God through prayer and through the Word. After having studied the Word of God sincerely, I developed certain beliefs about various issues. Over time, I have remained convinced of many of these issues. Time and continued study have only served to strengthen such beliefs. But I have also noticed that some of those beliefs have eroded. Now, I am not talking about what is obvious from the Word of God. I am talking about issues that are often debated -- sometimes within the same local Church. My opinion (or stand) on such issues has waivered as I viewed such issues with greater understanding from God's Word. This is to be expected. As you grow, and the more often you honestly and open-heartedly spend time in God's presence, you begin to hear much more clearly. Why, then, is there still so much doctrinal conflict between sincere believers?There are many different believers that frequent SermonIndex. As they enter the forums, they bring many doctrinal beliefs with them. There are:Pentecostals & non-pentecostalsTongues talkers & non-tongue talkers"Christian" rockers & "non-Christian" rockersKJV only & non-KJV onlyOnce Saved/Always Saved & non once saved/always savedPre-trib & Post-tribSingle Judgment & Multiple Judgments"TBN is good" & "TBN is bad""Preacher so-and-so" is good & "Preacher so-and-so" is badConservative & LiberalAmerica is Babylon & America might not be BabylonWatching the Discovery Channel is okay & watching the Discovery Channel is wrongetc...etc...etc...There are issues that I used to be convinced of -- only to later realize the "error of my way." Time and study have changed my understanding of certain issues. But that is good. The Bible instructs us to "test everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21). We sometimes will change beliefs -- realizing that what we once thought was sure was wrong. If we continue to spend time with the Lord, we are daily being molded into His image and likeness. The problem comes when people that are convinced about an issue begin to treat others with a spiritually prideful attitude. There are people who have a very vocal "I'm right & you're wrong" attitude on many controversial matters. Some even become convinced that if you don't agree with their particular doctrinal position, you will spend an eternity in Hell. They forget that they too may not have held that same doctrinal belief as a young believer. I believe that we should be patient with one another in matters of doctrine. Yes, there are some things that are spiritually self-evident. But there are some people who are willing to sever fellowship with a brother or sister in Christ over an interpretation about a particular Scripture (even about something as silly as the true meaning behind "the big toe on the right foot of the beast in Revelation"). It is my prayer that believers on this forum will continue to be patient and understanding with one another. In times of doctrinal conflict, we should share our particular beliefs in love. If someone still disagrees, then we can still encourage one another in the faith. We can pray that God will reveal the truth -- even if He needs to reveal it to ourself.As true believers, there are things that we can all agree on. This includes things like the need for salvation, prayer, worship, holiness, hatred for sin, winning the lost, etc... But on other issues, we must remember that we are all pilgrims, progressing on the same road that leads to eternal life. Some are just starting out -- while others are nearing the end of this road. We should pray about our conversations with one another as we travel. Regardless of disagreements, we must still encourage one another along this road. :-)