Stop Sinning!

The time has come to address this head on if only to bring some kind of realization. The mandate was handed down in a death sentence, the same one each and every one us is under, our due penalty.Right off the bat forget whatever construct we may be under, Calvinism, Armenianism, all this is becoming one great excusing-ism. If we are to be true to our Lord and to each other in Spirit and Truth this business needs to be closed down, burned down, demolished, destroyed, annexed, annihilated from our lives. Enough!For the moment it might be better off that we construct the idea in our minds that there is NO forgiveness for sin, surely we can pretend this for a bit can't we? We seemingly have little trouble doing it with sin in our lives. Ever the clever pretending, excusing, rationalizing away or the height of presumption and audacity, "It's under the blood", or any of the modern day blasphemy and heretical constructs that keep not only allowing sin to go on with the caveat that sounds something akin to "Try not to... sin" as it's mainspring, it is not "try". It is STOP.One of our own here put it this way. "It is not only that you can, you must." The effectsIf we are ever to be a true witness to a world stepped in sin, we need to come out of it and be something other than it if we are ever to prove this new life we live. Right now hypocrisy reigns and a large part of it fails right at the beginning with an easy believism that is falsely giving assurance of a new birth with the ease of a rubber stamp, "Just accept Jesus." Let us leave off all the clever extrapolations, theological ping-pong, and scriptural cut and paste and get right down to the root of the problem. However you want to slice it, it is putting the cart before the horse. The foundation is not being laid properly, the cost not counted, the admonishen to "take up your cross" and follow Jesus, which is a death march to your self life and to your sin instead being excused away, and attempted to be covered over with a shovel full of dirt, no one suffocates under that. Buried means buried. Baptism means baptism. Dead is dead. This whole idea of accepting and receiving has been so twisted and convoluted that it ought to be banished from our lips and in it's place, "Have mercy on me Lord, a sinner" and a pleading for Jesus to accept US. Spare the arguments, please. There is a place and time for grasping forgiveness and grace, with the horse out front, the cart is what needs to be dealt with.This is directed to us, us who say we hold the Lord in the highest esteem, this poor excuse for excusing away as the self appointed leader of this treatise first and foremost held guilty and liable, accountable to everyone here. Dare I preach it without walking in it.What has given rise to all this? Many things. One sample is that we have a whole bunch of professing "Christian" so called 'men' that are mere cowards and 'we' and I am using that with great liberty, are giving them excuses and pandering, trying to prop them up with a touchy-feely, so called compassionate 'love' that is in effect lying and covering, mere accessories to allowing the sin in their and our lives. "Accountability partners", does this work? Or if one is under this construct, do you lie to the one you are holding yourself accountable to? There may be some help and truth in it, but what about to Whom we are accountable to? Is He not of greater concern? Have we lost a true apprehension of the fear of the Lord? Mighty and terrible, the wrath of the Lamb? "Gentle Jesus"?Again, place for that, but not here, not now.Men, if I am to dare use that word. Do we fully realize that many of our women find us to be but weaklings and cowards, hypocrites and liars, saying one thing and then doing it's opposite? What am I talking about? Many things, one that is so prevalent in our day; Pornography.Will spare no one in this, 'men'. You have good reason to question your manhood if you are playing games with this, because it is no game, no mere weakness, it is I believe this coddling and worldly wisdom and psychology and nonsense that is allowing this to be just one of many 'problems' that need to be quietly and 'discreetly' dealt with. Nonsense! Rubbish! Don't for a minute think I speak from lack of experience, thank God it has been dealt with by the Lord very early on, but that has nothing to do with the temptations that still come and must be fought, the mind driven elsewhere, the fleeing of Joseph, slamming the door on it, turning your eyes away, making a covenant as Job did, whatever. Kill your sniveling flesh and suffer. This needs to be torn out at the root.You men, you think about the ramifications. Lives are being destroyed, your so called 'salvation' is in question. Mark this verse and meditate on it; 2 Cor 13:5. Don't try and wiggle out of it. Get serious. Am almost of the mind to state, go ahead and destroy yourself IF you think you are able to excuse away all your loved ones burdens, shame, damage brought into their lives for your fleeting moments of self pleasure. You know its a lie at the end, you know the guilt that awaits you, the shame, the duplicity. You need to tell yourself that you are but a coward before you "go there". Married men, do you think for a moment that you can excuse away your conduct with a leap of ill-logic to "The Lord will forgive me"? Banish the thought even if it be true. This presumption is exactly what Paul attempted to get through the thick skulls of his day; "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2,3Read it all and hang your hat on; "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Rom 6:7 Will come back to this latter, it is pivotal.Ramifications need to be seared into the conscience and I fear that is a primary reason that this one of many has become so prevalent in our day, even as the impossibility and contradictory carnality of calling ones self a Christian. Stumbling, trips, falls ... put it out of your thinking. We need to stop all this clever dodging. Where is the fear of the Lord? "That we might not sin against Him". Is it not strange that not only can one sin against his own wife and not give a rip about what your selfishness will do to her and your own family, but that one can hold this false assumption that you are accountable to the Lord Himself ultimately. Can you, with a straight face and an honest heart sit before your computer screen, your TV, your magazine, your prostitute ... whatever form you are partaking in and say"Jesus is Lord" ? I defy you to do so. If you think you can you are in strong delusion. Men, we need to regain a sense of meaning in words. Shame. You know what it means in your head, but it needs to be felt and experienced before you even let the thought of this sin to place it's seed in your head or your libido. It is high time to get ruthless with this. Was our Lord waxing eloquent here?;Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. We need to quit taking this as mere advice or abstract thought and take it's true meaning to heart. It means what it means;Stop sinning!\tIf we were as serious as we say we are, if we have all these incredible figures of so called "Christian men" "struggling" with "porn addiction" where pray tell are all the one-eyed, left handed only men walking about?We know what this means, it means to get serious about sin. Radical and ruthless. I'll gladly tell you what I think is a major problem with some of us so called men. Were chicken. We don't want to suffer. Babies. Cowards. We have re-made Jesus into this "little lamb" and heard it perfectly stated the other day, in Gods hands He was, not in mens hands. That is the difference between having a right understanding of true love and compassion and this quasi door mat mindset that has crept into all kinds of things, like excusing our sin. This same Jesus once brought out a whip and drove out the hypocrites and don't think for a moment that He missed nailing a couple of them...Am not advocating a self willed power to overcome ourselves, will get to that. We need the Holy Spirit to so fill our lives and control our actions that our obedience is automatic and without equivocation. I cannot recommend more assuredly than to listen through this series of messages from Earnest O'Neill. http://www.howtolivevictorious.com/They are short 20 to 30 minutes for the most part, if only to listen to a few at least the ones on the Gospel and Romans regarding the Holy spirit. He covers a lot of ground and gives one of the best and simple explanations of what the Gospel is, what our sins is and what the Lord has come to do about it all. These words have stuck right into the marrow regarding the doing away with sin, recalling from the reasoning of excuses... "I can't , I can't, can't", stated, "You can, you can, you can!" "Well, you say, 'What if I sin tomorrow?' " "Then stop sinning tomorrow"The point left to me was, to stop all this bobbing and weaving. The word is STOP. Stop now. Obedience now. we have to quit projecting and interposing all these "what if scenarios".Will leave with this for the time being. The aforementioned verse in Rom 6:7 as well as ...Mat 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus, because he is the one who will save his people from their sins." That word from needs to be seared into our conscience.

Praise the Lord! Awesome and True.Thank you Brother Mike. This is in the same vain of the post I am putting up: Am I a Tare?

Ramifications need to be seared into the conscience and I fear that is a primary reason that this one of many has become so prevalent in our day, even as the impossibility and contradictory carnality of calling ones self a Christian. Stumbling, trips, falls ... put it out of your thinking. We need to stop all this clever dodging. Where is the fear of the Lord?Ramifications...consequences...The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.(Pro 12:15)We are fools to not consider ramifications, this is the biblical definition of a fool; not someone who is uneducated or simple, but someone who fails to consider the eternal ramifications and consequences of their choices and actions. Based on this definition I have lived most of my life as a fool, by God's grace no more!Lord cause me to see from heaven's vantage point the eternal consequences of every choice and action I take, for the glory of your Name. Amen.In Christ,Ron

"Stop sinning!" It scares me to hear this message for often times it drives people away from Christ and causes a great many problems. Hear me out first and let me explain. I don’t mean to criticize, and I hope you take this all positively.It is true that salvation comes from repentance. Christ preached repentance. However, repentance means to “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin.” (From Oxford English Dictionary). Repentance means realizing that we have done something wrong, and then seeking forgiveness for our sins. By this, we realize that we are wrong or lesser, and by this, we are humbling ourselves. The command, “Stop Sinning!” does not preach repentance. It commands that people stop sinning. If this is statement is not communicated properly, it can lead people to think they need to stop sinning by their own accord, by their own will. Often times, this command is coupled with “self-control.” We are commanded to control ourselves. Rather than seek forgiveness for sin, the person who stops sinning proves they don’t need God’s help, rather, they can be good on their own.If people could stop sinning, then they would not need Christ. Before Christ, the Israelites were held under the law. The law claimed that life came through obedience to the law. (Le 18:5 NLT - If you obey my laws and regulations, you will find life through them.) And so, in effect, people could be saved by following the letter of the law. However, as we know, “No one is good – not even one.” (Rom 3:10 NLT)Christ came to deliver us from sin. (As you showed in your post above.) As you said, this is important for we need Christ to deliver us from sin. We cannot stop sinning. We never could. That is why we need Christ. We need His help. Mt 5:17 – (NLT)"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.”Jesus came to fulfill the law because we could not. The law has not been abolished, rather, it is Christ who will uphold it. We never could keep the law and stop sinning. Apart from Christ, we never will. It is impossible for any human to be fulfill the law. Why? If we upheld every letter of the law, and never sinned, we would be “good.” However, “only God is good.” (Matt 19:17 NLT) So, only God is capable of fulfilling the law. Only God is good and can stop from sinning. We cannot. Jesus is most important. He can not only forgive us for our sins, but give us victory over sin as well. He will conquer sin in us. We will not do this by our own will, but by the power of Christ who lives inside of us. All we have to do is turn to him and repent. As established above, repentance is an act of humility. Someone who repents realizes they are lesser and weak. If you are weaker, then you have no choice but to submit. A repentant heart will submit unto Christ. They will bow down before His throne and seek His forgiveness, mercy, grace, and help. I am sure you know all this. You’re probably thinking, “Yes, Yes, I know.” The thing is, when you tell people to “Stop Sinning,” you are not directing them to Christ. The reason born-again Christians are devastated by sin in their lives, is not because they lack self-control, but rather because they are not giving their lives completely over to Christ. They don’t want to give their sin over to Jesus. Rather, in many cases, the person wants to prove they can stop sinning on their own, and maintain self-control. To repent is to give up. It is to admit weakness and defeat. At this point, we become remorseful and sorry. We fall down and call upon Jesus for help. I experienced this first hand in overcoming smoking. After I was saved, everyone told me that I needed to quit smoking because it was a sin. This didn’t seem right to me. How could a God who just saved me from sin turn around and tell me to stop sinning? If I couldn’t do it before, how could I do it after? And so, I prayed about it. I said, “Jesus, I don’t know if smoking is a sin or not. All I know is that I cannot quit. I enjoy smoking immensely. I have tried to quit so many times in the past, and I can’t do it. If you want me to quit smoking, I will quit, but you have to help me. I am weak.”About a weak later, while smoking a cigarette, the Lord told me to quit. He asked me to trust Him. And so, I did. I said, “Okay, I will.” Later that night, I smoked my last cigarette. The Lord carried me through the entire thing.All I had to do is make a choice. Would I trust in Christ and submit unto Him, or would I try to do things in my own strength? That night, I made the choice to trust Him. And now, whenever I feel the Devil tempting me, my first reaction is to call out to Jesus. “Help me!” I then rebuke the Devil and tell him to flee. Jesus never fails me. Therefore, as a fellow brother, I would be careful about telling people to “Stop Sinning.” Because they just might. They might find strength in themselves to stop sinning. And when they do it without Jesus, they are in a worse place than when they were sinning. A person who stops sinning without Jesus is self-righteous. They are made righteous by their own will and command. A self-righteous person begins to think they are God. They think “I am a good person” because of their good deeds.Additionally, sometimes we become so focused on our own sins that we become self-centered and self focused. This is also a dangerous road to walk. “Trust in Jesus” and “Follow Jesus” for anyone who truly follows Jesus would be filled with the Spirit and not seeking after his own good, but only the good of others. They wouldn’t be focused on their sin or their self; rather they would be focused on Christ. A person who is totally and truly focused on Christ would not have time to sin.

Brother Mike, amen. Amen to that true Word.Bleenblake, your definition of repentance, or at least Oxford's, is different than the Bible's or that of the Puritans (and I only use the Puritans because I believe they struck a true chord like no other on this subject of repentance). You wrote:repentance means to “feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one’s wrongdoing or sin.”Feeling remorse or sorrow for sin is actually only one element of repentance itself. The Bible describes godly sorrow merely as a stepping stone to true repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10). True repentance is, as Mike was saying, actually turning around, ceasing from committing the sin, just like when Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." The word 'repent' is also used when God says: "I will not repent of what I have done" etc... it's a turning or changing.There's this incredible Puritan book written by Thomas Watson called "The Doctrine of Repentance" that covers the entire thing indepth. $5.00 at Banner of Truth.God be praised. Let us be men of courage. Let us be Christians.In Christ,-Eli

Rise up, O men of God!Have done with lesser things.Give heart and mind and soul and strengthTo serve the King of kings.Rise up, O men of God!The kingdom tarries long.Bring in the day of brotherhoodAnd end the night of wrong.Rise up, O men of God!The church for you doth wait,Her strength unequal to her task;Rise up and make her great!Lift high the cross of Christ!Tread where His feet have trod.As brothers of the Son of Man,Rise up, O men of God!

Wow. Ernest O'Neill is awesome.

This is a word spoken in season my brother. I have wept over this very subject. It permeates our very culture.If I may bring to memberance a few scriptures...John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ========================================= 1 John 2: 15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. ======================================== James 1: 12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. I don't post very often and to some the message may seem redundant but we need a renewing, reforming, revival that is birthed in prayer. We need a visitation, for in the presence of G_d, we are changed. We need to be transformed in our prayer closet, so the world can be transformed. Mike, your post begs the question... Is the church evangelizing the world, or is the world evangelizing church?

Dear Brother Eli, I agree with what you said. True repetance does mean to turn from sin. Even still, in my mind "stop" and "turn" are two different things. When we stop sinning, we stop. For all I know, a person could stop sinning not because they want to turn to God, but because they want to gain something from it. For instance, I could stop smoking not because I selfishly want to preserve my earthly life, not because I want to turn to God.To "turn" from sin, in my interpretation, suggests that we choose to turn away from sin toward something else. To "turn" suggests that our action leads us to a different course or path. When we turn, our focus, which was initially on our "sin" or "self" has changed. We are no longer facing our sin, rather we have turned and now are facing Christ. When we turn from sin, we are turning toward Christ. Of course, this does suggest that we stop sinning, but when we do stop it is not because we have stopped, but only because of Christ in us. By this, God gets all the glory. Just for the record, I wasn't really disagreeing with Mike. I was just reinforcing his last statement and trying to get him to think a bit about the statement, "Stop Sinning".In Christ,Blake

Yeah, amen brother Blake :-)

Thank You, and again I say Thank You...I am new here but have been lurking for a while. Guess I was testing the water. I am so glad to hear someone stand-up and speak out about sin. Not just sin but sin in the so-called, self-proclaimed christians life. Where are all the watchmen and men of God with backbone and fortitude to call sin:sin, heaven: sweet and hell:hot.

If we are ever to be a true witness to a world stepped in sin, we need to come out of it and be something other than it if we are ever to prove this new life we live.Amen and AmenOh that these words, the realization of them would aid in the cutting away the foreskin off our hearts to the shedding of blood! Am not advocating a self willed power to overcome ourselves, will get to that. We need the Holy Spirit to so fill our lives and control our actions that our obedience is automatic and without equivocation.A.W. Tozer warns that this is serious holy business. We are not to tinker with our soul in this matter. God alone must do the work, and we must be determined in ourselves to seek just that. Thank you Mike...you have spoke well for this woman.Eileen

Actually found that there where some items that may be buttressing the point here:BlakeI was just reinforcing his last statement and trying to get him to think a bit about the statement, "Stop Sinning".GrannieAnnieI'm not thrilled with the "title" either, ( ), cuz it sort of scares the sensitive conscience people away and 'could' draw in the self-righteous, but there are ample Scriptures to prove both your points.Both of these are a help to where I attempting to go and it may be in part an advocating to what you might call a slow conversion. Cannot recall now who, might have been George Whitefield, or the Wesley's, do correct me here, but there was a time when preachers and others were not so quick to placing a stamp on salvation, where there was actual time spent in going through the scriptures to give a proper understanding of what this life entails. Times where the preaching could go on for days, leaving the hearers in the agony of their souls, left to ponder deeply the inward sin without giving any instant reprieve. In our day this would likely be considered cruelty and would wreck a thousand sales pitches to "accepting Jesus".The reason being is as a counteracting against what is so prominent, that of jumping to the cure before the cause has been realized. Of course we mean well and we have compassion and something like this can cause the alarm to go off ... and it could be summed up in "you must give the balance" with certainty and had alluded to that, what I was driving at is ... not now, not yet.The reason for bringing up just one area to begin with is the wondering if the foundation and ramifications were better understood before hand the likelihood that we wouldn't have all this baggage and all these very questionablesalvations. Mark that, this is in no ones estimation, it is impossible to determine all the factors and would never pass judgment on any soul, it is always the same indictment; 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? "Count the cost"Purposefully have stalled to try and get some kind of sanctified pondering in this world of instant everything. The greatest error and my own greatest fear is in mis-representing the Lord, a wrong view of who God is, the workings of the Holy Spirit as a person who dwells in the hearts of believers. Have I arrived? Heavens no!I never will in one sense and thank God for that.Look at Paul after how many years? Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. The issue is one of jumping the gun. In the truest sense to jump the gun in a race is to take off out of the blocks before the sound and what happens when that happens? The runners all come back and start over, line up again and wait. Somewhere along the line Christianity in large part jumped the line and never stopped running. And then the awards are given out even though the whole race is fraudulent.Getting back on track here, in more ways than one there is an oxymoron that is more moronic then 'oxy' if we stopped to think about it.Christian men who are addicted to pornography.Christian men who beat their wives.Christian men who cheat on their wives.... who cheat, lie, drunkards,...Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:7-10There is nothing here sensitive at all and it is good to pause before moving on to verse 11. Why? Because in this day it is to dwell on the happy results, it is that which is being promoted right across the board. It's backward. "Accept Jesus as your personal Savior" not "Men and brethren, what shall we do?". Fully realize the difficulty in making this some kind of ipso facto type statement across the board. One of own here made a great point, believe it was Robert awhile back about making a determination of what is necessary at any given moment, not in catering to the whims of man but to the matter at hand, that which needs to be spoken or given in the moment and only the Holy Spirit can be relied on to make that determination. But He must first be indwelling and we must have some sort of surrender imperfect surely, but ongoing, daily, minute by minute or else we will be either aping conduct or reasoning out of our own devices. The surrender I am speaking about is our so called rights to ourselves, to our thinking, to anything that must be let go of. It is a full surrender and a full obedience and we do not arrive there by some construct of doctrine, nor of a legalistic mandate but by being brutally honest inwardly, in "Spirit and Truth". To give the unconverted anything other than a sheer honesty is to do a clever dodge, a license to sin that is the rankest heresy and it is prevalent in this day.Still feel like this has only begun to touch on the edges. Rom 7:13 Then has that which is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through that which is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Th exceedingly sinfulness of sin.One to dwell on in this whole realm of responsibility;"I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." 1Co 9:26,27Who is doing the work here?

The exceedingly sinfulness of sin.Yes, I believe we have lost sight of this.

It has all ministered to me, but this portion I would like to address.Quote:Purposefully have stalled to try and get some kind of sanctified pondering in this world of instant everything. The greatest error and my own greatest fear is in mis-representing the Lord, a wrong view of who God is, the workings of the Holy Spirit as a person who dwells in the hearts of believers. Have I arrived? Heavens no!I never will in one sense and thank God for that.Look at Paul after how many years? Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. The issue is one of jumping the gun. In the truest sense to jump the gun in a race is to take off out of the blocks before the sound and what happens when that happens? The runners all come back and start over, line up again and wait. Somewhere along the line Christianity in large part jumped the line and never stopped running. And then the awards are given out even though the whole race is fraudulent.---I live my life everyday not asking the Lord, if I were to die today would I go to heaven or to hell, No! but I ask myself if I knew, If I was told that my time was limited -- what would I do for the Lord, how would I live out my last days for him? How can he use me to be glorified, and how can he manifest himself through me to bring glory and honor to the father? All I can think of is surrender, by surrendering to him, and allowing him to mold me, and to make me.Allowing him to start over, if him being the potter and me being the clay, somehow I do not turn Out as he had intended, allowing him to start over. Perhaps as you stated going back to the starting line, and waiting on him.I hear you “Brother” me too, many times I too fear mis-representing the Lord, so much so that many times I feel worthless or not good enough.

Dear Mike, I understand what you are saying, or so I am trying. I have a few responses, hopefully taken all in good heart. Paul says, "know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"What makes a man righteous? Are we made righteous by upholding the law, or by Jesus? Only the righteous will enter Heaven. Additionally, we are made righteous by Christ. If we were once a drunkard before we were saved, we were cleansed by Christ after we were saved. Upon salvation, we are no longer sinners, we are righteous. We may sin, but we are not sinners. Watchman Nee talks about this in the book, "A Normal Christian Life." I will share a quote with you later when I have time to dig it up. Romans 7:13, I think may be better understood in a modern translation. (NLT) But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commandment for its own evil purposes.(NASB) Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.Paul seems to be establishing the point that sin is given power by the law. Sin is made exceedingly sinful through commandment. If there were no laws, how should we be able to sin? It seems to me that Paul is trying to show that the Law was good, but humans were bad. We could not live up to the law. If we read further in this scripture in Romans 7, we see Paul discusses this further. (NLT) "14 The law is good, then. The trouble is not with the law but with me, because I am sold into slavery, with sin as my master. 15 I don't understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do the very thing I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 But I can't help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things. 18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. 19 When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it. 21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin?" Paul is building an argument for Jesus Christ. He is trying to show that we need Jesus to overcome sin because we are too weak. The law conflicts with us. And thus, we need Jesus to set us free from the law. "I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." 1Co 9:26,27Who is doing the work here?Indeed, in this scripture Paul is doing the work. However, why so? If we look at the beginning of the chapter, we discover that Paul is defending his authority as an apostle over the Church. I agree with you that people need to stop sinning. Sin hurts not only the person sinning and God, but everyone. We are all effected by the tragedies of sin.And it seems that it is a relatively simple matter. Just stop. Just stop sinning. It's that simple. It seems that simple. But let me ask, are you without sin? If it were really that easy to stop sinning, then we would all be perfect. However, it's not. As Paul outlined in the above scriptures, our flesh conflicts with the law. To not sin is not natural. The thing is, when people hear such a commandment, "Stop Sinning" they begin to think, "Yeah, that's it, I just need to stop sinning. It's that simple. That's all I have to do is stop." Then they go home, try to stop, and discover that they cannot stop. They are weak. It seems the more they try to stop, the more they fail. They become so focused on thier sin that they lose thier focus on Christ. Next thing you know, they are overcome by guilt and they feel defeated. And then, they begin to question thier salvation and wonder what happened? This is a strategy the Devil uses to get a foothold on good Christians. First, he breaks us down and gets us to commit a sin. Then, when we find that we are weak and can't stop sinning, he uses this as an opportunity to shatter our faith. We should not let the Devil get a stronghold on us. We should always answer sin in the same way, with the blood of Jesus Christ. We should always recognize our need for Christ. We need God's grace. We need Jesus.In Matthew 5:3 (KJ) Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."I believe the first step in conquering sin comes from making a choice. The choice we have to make is: are you willing to give it to Jesus? Once we make that decision, once we decide to give our sin(s) to Jesus, He can then take them to the cross. Although, Jesus said it best as Eli pointed out: Matthew 4:17 - (NLT)From then on, Jesus began to preach, "Turn from your sins and turn to God, because the Kingdom of Heaven is near. "In Christ,Blake

Hi Blake,With all due respect you are still making the point for me, will get there, it is part of what this is all leading up to. You might say it's still in the diagnostic state and part of the reason for drawing the attention towards for instance the problems with pornography as just illustrative of the mentality of many that are naming the name of Christ as their Lord. There is good reason why Jesus stated in that repetitave manner about those who would call out to Him in that fashion.This might be of some help if it needs to be addressed at this juncture:The nation of Israel had sinned and the consequence of their sin was a plague of fiery venomous snakes. The context is so important that I will give the whole section here; And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee; pray unto Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived. (Num 21:6-9ASV)These people are not just sick or inconvenienced, they are dying and they know it. They also know why they are dying “we have sinned”. Conviction of sin is a work of God’s Spirit. They had not been persuaded of the facts of the case by an evangelist they knew it. In fact, they took the initiative, they came to Moses. This is much more like New Testament evangelism where the appeal comes from the congregation rather than the preacher. They are desperate in their plea; this sounds much more like those old ‘after meetings’ too. {underlines mine}The full context here: RECEIVING CHRIST With thanks to our good friend for a very fair treatment of the subject.

More often than not writing can be akin to etching on to a mirror, to see the thoughts developed as if they are just barely ahead of the understanding. That is to say, they can be an indictment to the writer. The short comings are revealed, the duplicity, the same similarities being compared and contrasted even if they may be on another line altogether.Anger. "Righteous indignation"... A fine line to walk. Is it smugness or brokenness? There is a part that wants to just leave off this whole topic, exhausted spiritually, even physically, the part that says "I just don't care anymore".But that is very much the problem and the tension.Perhaps a bit of clarifying. Most things seem to rise up out of particulars, snap shots of circumstances, experiences. There is great deal of expression trying to be formed into some kind of cohesiveness and yet the tentacles are reaching out in all directions. To watch and wait for sin to run it's course... There is a pause to contemplate. Who is long suffering? Toward us?Ramifications. There everywhere. Broken family's, schisms, suspicions and imaginations. Dis-trust. Haughtiness. Sneakiness. Flippant, glib, gut wrenching, heartbreaking.Backsliding.Forgetfulness.Confrontation. If you are not given to this it can be devastating. In times past it would easily have been recognized primarily for a fear of man and surely there is still relics of that, which must be overcome as well. Part of this whole extrapolation is borne out of likely a long buildup and the top got blown off from recent events. To see not only our close loved ones but your own brethren and their loved ones suffering the ramifications of sin... and let me leave off the whole slicing and dicing here. This may prove helpful;"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life". 1Jo 5:16-20There is a great deal that in particulars not necessary to go into but two different confrontations occurred over the weekend. In one the anger rose to such an occasion that it was itself becoming sin, sought out counsel from the brethren here as it was happening. In a flash of inspiration perhaps and hope it was the Holy Spirit leveling me to a simmer.... wrote out the situation in no uncertain words, and made sure that it got into the hands, direct and to the point; 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? It had to be said in this situation and it was exactingly because of the lack of grasping the ramifications of what this sin was causing. Even if devlievering it proved to be crushing. This is where the tentacles come in.In a lot of this bouncing around and trying to draw out the thoughts it keeps coming back to the same thing. There is this new tolerance of sin that leaps to the grace of God and pardons the ramifications. Of course there is forgiveness, but the incredulous thing is that it leaves the victims (not sure I prefer that word) with the baggage, the pain, the sufferings while the offender goes free, or so they think. There may be some wailing and guilt, shame, response, a sorrow for the sin.... but is it repentance? And who am I to judge? But when it is this cyclical, roller coaster like continuance, month after month, year after year... something is dreadfully wrong. It does not escape me that a large part of it is precisely because of churches that will not practice church discipline, will not take the mandate to give one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, whether it be for sexual sins or drug abuse, whatever the leaven that is infecting the Body. It is why this long pause of consideration to the effects and understanding of what sin is because it is in great danger of being completely swept under the rug. Being that our day seems stuck in a either\\or motif the leap is to a cry of "Legalist" or "Liberal" whatever label us mere men come up with.There is something extremely dis-honest about dis-honesty and how it can be carried in the same temple that is supposed to house the Holy Spirit... "Grieve not?" The wonder is, "Is He even present?" Hard words but that is the self examination. If one is to go on blinded by what their own actions are causing others to suffer through and not take a long look at it...The other issue that came about and was a byproduct and even closer to home. The former effecting the same. It is difficult not to get into the details, but it becomes like a broken record and starts sounding like complaints. It was a different approach, it was 'anger' but subdued by sheer brokenness. Even the former situation has been addressed by compassion, reasoning, scripture, logic ... you name it, all of it bathed in prayer, sometimes fasting, perhaps not enough. Came across this, which seemed very fitting:DesolationO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Matthew 23:37-38)The historic Temple was twice cleansed by our Lord; then when He came again to Jerusalem He no longer spoke of it as “My Father’s house,” but, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” A terrible pronouncement, and a terrible possibility in our own lives. It is appallingly true that we may get to the place where Jesus can no longer say of us, “My Father’s house”; where He can no longer give us the benefit of scourging and cleansing, but can only retire, a weeping Christ, over our wilfulness. “How often would I . . . , and ye would not!” You have spurned and despised every messenger I sent, and now I say unto you, “Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”Is yours a desolated life, deserted in soul? Then in plain honesty don’t blame your father or mother or anyone in your family; don’t blame the fact that you had no education, or that someone thwarted you when you were sixteen, or that you were heartbroken when you were twenty-four, or had a business disaster when you were thirty. These things may be facts, but they are not to the point. Nothing that transpires outside me can make the tiniest difference to me morally unless I choose to let it. The desolation described by Jesus was brought on by the people of God themselves and by them alone. Is God saying to you, “You have spurned and hated and murdered My messengers”? If so, it will be a painful thing for your desolated soul to say—“Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord”—Blessed is the one who stabs and hurts and disillusions me as to where I am.A sinner who has never been cleansed by the direct act of the Lord may hear the Gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, and He will do all the cleansing. Compare that condition with one who has backslidden, one who had been cleansed by God, but has allowed the traffic to get back, sensuality, self-seeking, self-interest; the “cattle” are all back, the “doves” and the “money-changers’ tables,” with a deepened and increased element of thieving. It is no longer making more for me and mine, it is a downright thieving of God’s time and opportunities, and God’s sacredness in other lives. That is what a spiritual thief does. Such a soul has to come back to God in desolation. It is no use to tell the backslider to receive the Holy Spirit, he cannot; the Holy Spirit will not be received by him; he has to come back to God in desolation. In the parable of the two sons some of the elements in the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin are missed out—the shepherd goes to seek the lost sheep, and the woman searches for the lost coin; but the father does not go to the far country, the son has to leave the pigs and what pigs eat and come back; and if you have backslidden you will have to do the same. “O Israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and return unto the Lord: say unto Him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously ”. Take with you words and say, “By mine iniquity have I fallen”—by lust, by worldliness, by self-interest, you know exactly what it is. You have been trying to find comfort here and there and you will never get it; your soul is night, your heart is steel; you have spurned and trodden under and despised God’s messengers, and you will only see God when you say, “Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Then says God—“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for mine anger is turned away from him” (Hosea 14:4 rv).Oswald ChambersThe Servant As His LordAll this to say that there is a brokenness that goes past feeling and despondence, depression, it is far from feeling smug about it, it is downright death inwardly, then comes the curious aspect of... am I feeling sorry for my self? Or is it more in line with;2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. And did it stem from:2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is caused to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? Yes, the hope is to come to the same outcome of;"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you." 2Co 7:9-12Maybe the fear is in all the shortcuts between verses 8 and 9.There is a sure hope and a sure Help, yet there is still much to address. Still pausing, painful as it is.

There is something extremely dis-honest about dis-honesty and how it can be carried in the same temple that is supposed to house the Holy Spirit..."Grieve not?" The wonder is, "Is He even present?" Hard words but that is the self examination. If one is to go on blinded by what their own actions are causing others to suffer through and not take a long look at it...No, in spite of all the manifestations of the Spiritual gifts, there is NO love. We still go home and watch pornography. We still talk about our “brothers and sisters” in the Lord. We still cheat on our taxes, etc., etc., etc. All the gifts will pass away, but LOVE never fails. LOVE submits, LOVE surrenders all, LOVE is never offended. LOVE doesn’t watch pornography performed by people who are on their way to hell. LOVE doesn’t curse their “brothers and sisters” in the Lord. LOVE doesn’t steal from the government. LOVE is CHRIST. His Spirit lives in us IF WE ARE REAL.Is yours a desolated life, deserted in soul? Then in plain honesty don’t blame your father or mother or anyone in your family; don’t blame the fact that you had no education, or that someone thwarted you when you were sixteen, or that you were heartbroken when you were twenty-four, or had a business disaster when you were thirty. These things may be facts, but they are not to the point. Nothing that transpires outside me can make the tiniest difference to me morally unless I choose to let it.Father God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ please help me. I believe that your Son died for me. I want to serve Him, but it doesn’t go away. The pain, the shame, the continuing harassment and accusations by these deep rooted thoughts, and those awful invisible things that come at night. I didn’t know how to defend myself when my father did that awful thing to me when I was only 4 years old. I didn’t want to do this. I don’t think it was my fault. I asked my mother for help and she spanked me and said that I was a bad girl. Why does it still hurt? Why don’t I feel Your Joy? I went to my pastor, he prayed with me. Now I speak in tongues, he tells me that I am fine because I am filled with Your Spirit. Dear Lord, I am not fine. I hear in my church that Jesus came to give us an abundant life. Father, this is not abundant, I still feel the pain from so many years ago. I pray in tongues, they tell me that this helps. Father God it doesn’t. Please help me, I am desperate and no one listens. In Jesus name.

Dear brothers and sisters at SI,The prayer in my last post is not a personal prayer. It is a compulation of the cries of the abused women (and some men) I have counseled through the years. It was my prayer, some 20 years ago, and Praise God, He led me to some people who walked with me.I added this, because the Christians who pray these prayers are in all of our churches. They don't even dare talking, because they experience more abuse as a result. And very sadly, yes, they sin and are not able to stop until they are set free.God have mercy on your Church!!!

Dear Dorcas,You said:One thing I found most helpful, was the idea that I was already all God's.That is exactly where people who feel dirty, unclean, and accused have to come to. In the last twenty some years I found only one lady who had been horribly abused, I cried when she told me her story, yet she knew that she was the Lord's and came to a much fuller knowledge of the love of Christ in a very short time. It would be so wonderful if every abused person, or children from occult filled backgrounds could be free so fast.

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." 1st john 3:3-11" For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth" 1st Pet 2:22"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." 1st John 2:1""Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Matt 18:7-9" "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 "But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:22-24"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection"Rom 6:1-5" If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment" James 2:8-13" Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom 4:15" For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" Rom 8:3,4Oh boy, There is so much more where that came from. The word of God is filled with the doctrine of the possibility of never sinning!stop sinningGod bless all of you, Randy

Thank you Randy,I know the Scriptures you quoted at least as well as you do, but I still sin. I don't want to, but still once in a while the flesh gets the better of me.That's not the point I am trying to make. Were you raped Randy, when you were small? Were you systematically abused by "Christian" authority figures?Edit:This is a rhetorical question Randy. I don’t for one moment expect you to answer this. I asked this question because I believe that you weren’t. I asked this because many Christians downplay the real suffering that abused people go through. They haven’t been there and therefore can’t relate to the pain and difficulties of abuse survivors. The reason I asked you this may become clearer when you read the rest of this post. Do you know that when one is hurt badly, one forms judgments? Even at the age of 3, 4, or 5, children form judgments. The Bible tells us that we are not to judge or we will be judged. Our common enemy, the accuser of the brethren knows this to – he actually knows the Bible better than most of us – and he uses it. This is where a real great problem occurs. Who is there to help people, who want to serve God but don't know about judgments and who aren’t discipled about things that give the evil one the “legal” right to oppress them? I can guarantee you that quoting Scripture doesn't work; every one I have ever had the God-given privilege to help walk through the “garbage and dirt” that was piled on them had heard the same Scriptures. Many Christians quote them, all it does for most hurting people is make them more dirty and accused. What does a woman do who marries and wants to be a good wife but can’t, either physically or mentally because the intimacy doesn’t “feel” good? All it does is bring back real painful memories. Some can’t even physically be the wife that God has called them to be. How do you fix that? Medication doesn’t, psychiatry doesn’t, the name of Jesus does, but….who helps them if all it is, “is just their unwillingness to obey God?” Do you honestly believe that a woman in that position wouldn’t just rather recite the Scriptures and get well? You think it is pleasant to have to go to doctors and other specialists who can’t help them either?I have tried to share with the SI family that there are real problems that we cannot quote away with Scriptures. If any of you do, please tell me. If there is someone out there that knows how a woman who was traumatized to a point that when she gets married she cannot physically fulfill the marriage vow, can get healed by quoting Scripture with her, please come forward, because there is a much greater need than you may realize.Please, I am not trying to be smart, I have seen hurting people who are a real target for the evil one and they suffer. If you have experience in this, and I am missing the boat, please fill me in. The clergy of the entire area where I live don’t, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me to get involved with their “difficult” cases. Last year a nine year old boy drove 15 hours through a snowstorm, because where he lived they had no answers. I am very serious when I try to tell you that our Churches are missing something, OR I AM. Please clue me in.

Hi Hans,Hope I am rightly following you here. I think you are showing us a different side of things, that of judging sin and laying a heavier burden perhaps? I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth and in effect think you may be showing even more of the ramifications of sin and how forgetful the actions have of repercussions.And in effect you have gotten right down into the abyss of it by aligning yourself with the sufferers to be of a help to them. I could not agree more that to quote scriptures at someone to bend their wills is not going to be very effective with that motive...Who is there to help people, who want to serve God but don't know about judgments and who aren’t discipled about things that give the evil one the “legal” right to oppress them? I can guarantee you that quoting Scripture doesn't work; every one I have ever had the God-given privilege to help walk through the “garbage and dirt” that was piled on them had heard the same Scriptures. Many Christians quote them, all it does for most hurting people is make them more dirty and accused. With the utmost certainty this is not towards those, grace to the humble, "I desire mercy not sacrifice". Far be it from that. I do realize as it was addressed earlier on here that a certain self-righteousness, a smugness, a high-mindedness can result or be attributed to bringing forth an examination of sin. For the better part this is addressed to professing Christians to examine, to those that are willing to compromise in order to win souls at whatever the cost... and that is the issue really, the 'cost' is that which needs to be addressed is given short shift, dismissed with a "repeat after me" type prayer ... and what I guess is most difficult is that there is a prominence of teaching that centers around a faulty idea that everything is under grace and where I think Earnest O' Neill referenced back earlier made a great evaluation by keying in on the matter. That we are saved from our sins, not just 'in' them. It's a tenuous matter and difficult to express, am feeling my way through this as it goes.The other link was to one of our members well stated and fair treatment of how we may come to the Lord, that of "receiving" or "accepting" the Lord, "into our hearts" and as it was stated, many of us have come that way, it is not so cut and dried always what the intentions may be in any given case, in fact it's down right impossible to make a blanket statement in this regard.I guess the fear is that we can see the results in evidence of a contradiction. The seriousness seems in large part lost, the ramifications and strangeness that 'self' is more important than what the Lord stated in and if it was taken rightly, maybe it expresses both of our points adequately:Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! It is interesting that this all precedes the following verses addressing the seriousness of sin by that one word, "Wherefore".Richest blessings Hans, please correct my misunderstandings here if I am not following you. This has been a very difficult matter of late, being so close to home and to those I love deeply.A matter that causes a lot of self examination as well, not to pine away at it, but to just face it and in effect 'feel' it, the weight of it, the carrying about of it for others in patience and long suffering, being humbled and reflective, grieved... it is the trouble we are in and there is a sure hope by the Holy Spirit, maybe it's time to draw on that, the cure.

God bless you Dorcas for your posts. I will address your questions soon.Hi Mike,I thank you for asking the questions and I Praise and Thank our Lord and Savior for the opportunity to share.In most churches I know, when people have difficulties they are sent to Christian Counseling. The interesting part about this is that one has to have a recognized degree in psychology or psychiatry to be able to qualify as a Christian Counselor. This is partly intriguing and partly devastating, for what psychiatrist taught Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our Faith? The roots of psychiatry and psychology cannot be found in Christianity. I am not going too far with this, because many have written more intelligently about this than I ever will. Hope I am rightly following you here. I think you are showing us a different side of things, that of judging sin and laying a heavier burden perhaps? I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth and in effect think you may be showing even more of the ramifications of sin and how forgetful the actions have of repercussions.Yes we do – mostly with the right intentions mind you – lay heavier burdens on people who struggle with “things” that they really can’t share with most other Christians, because they will be labeled “unclean” and “unsaved.” A number of years ago I met up with a young man who struggled with homosexual temptations. He came from a very dysfunctional home – strict Christians of the worst controlling kind. He knew all the Scriptures, even better than I at the time. He questioned his salvation; he didn’t dare even going to an elder or Pastor because of “fear of man.” Put yourself in those shoes Mike. One day – God forbid – for some unclear reason you start to feel that way. Where do you go? Today there are fortunately some places where one can go if you meet someone who doesn’t judge and you are able to go there. These places are not recognized by most denominations and Christian Counselors will not refer you there either. Shouldn’t we be able to go to the “brethren” in our own Christian fellowship to find freedom? I have been right across Canada, in my former professional position, and also in Europe and have met people everywhere who struggle way beyond the struggles that the average Christian encounters. When some of this is identified as a general rule they are sent to the above mentioned Christian Counselors and the problems are approached from a “Christian Psychological” viewpoint, whatever that is. Most of our Pastors and ministry leaders are too involved with the business of church rather than having time for caring for their flock. And in effect you have gotten right down into the abyss of it by aligning yourself with the sufferers to be of a help to them. I could not agree more that to quote scriptures at someone to bend their wills is not going to be very effective with that motive...On a number of occasions I have wanted to run away from “aligning myself with sufferers;” it is outright hard and very painful. It goes even further than that; the evil one always finds people in the body where you worship that will malign you and undercut your credibility. Sending “people with serious difficulties” away to “professionals” is much easier and cleaner, because we don’t have to get involved. I have “walked” with people who had gone to counselors for years on a weekly basis. When they finally “met Jesus” in a real way, they came to the road to freedom. A case in point: a well-known Christian in this kind of healing ministry came to a large Evangelical Bible College in Canada. The professors spoke mockingly about him to their students and declared that anyone who would attend the talks this man gave would be a fool. This is disheartening and does a great disservice to the Precious Blood that was spilled by our Savior to set the captives free!One thing I cannot answer with certainty: why, when a person commits to serving Jesus and confesses Him as their Lord and Savior, are they not instantaneously set free of all judgments, bondages, and unforgiveness? I believe from what I have experienced, that because not everyone forgives every perpetrator of all injuries caused as soon as they are saved, Satan continues to have a hold of them. It is only after ALL sins have been forgiven from the heart, that a person can be set free. I will be writing more of this on my website when time permits.I hope that this clarifies a bit more of what I have been attempting to share on this forum I will gladly answer more questions if you have them.

Borrowed the following from Do you believe that sin in normal for the Christian? in which Freedcd wrote:Ernest O'Neill believes that sin is NOT normal. He states. "There are thousands down through the centuries that have never believed that sin is normal. To be honest with you, those of you who believe that sin is normal, really want to sin. Now the reason you believe this is, you want the right to loose are temper or to get angry or to do your own thing or to do what you want with your life. You know that even Satin will twist the scripture for his own purposes."Almost fear that this could be brushed off with a wave of the hand; "But of course, it's not normal". And that seems to be a great problem as it enlarges out into everything by doctrine and the 'sin nature', 'perfection', what we of ourselves can and\\or cannot do about it, what has already been accomplished by the Lords dying to it in our stead.There is a muddy sense of this idea that due to this accepted normalcy that many things do indeed get twisted into license at the sake of grace, excusing instead of rejecting it as the new natural repulse that it should be amongst those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling. It is the very thing the Body is trying to reject and eradicate which is both a process and a want of it's removal, but also a submission to the Surgeons knife that we may be healed. For all the self styled surgery we attempt only leaves us more the scared and worse for wear.Strange that which we would have eliminated we can drink back in even after having tasted the freedom from it's bondage.Am reminded of Oswald Chambers as well as Mr. O'Neill's similar sentiments. It's not that we can't, it's that we won't.Won't put sin away.Won't humble ourselves.Won't carry our cross.Won't lay down our "rights"Won't admit.Won't submit.Won't slow.Won't yield.Wont' stop."But I can't...... stop all these things.""It's my nature"Not any longer it isn't.If we would but allow.If we could but give up.If we could but lay it down.If we could but choose.We can be free from sin.We can. We can. We can!It's promised to us.It's freely given.The help and the power to do so.Right now, in this moment.Free from all sin."Sin-less"Outlandish?Only if... We take your eyes off for a moment and sink.We look to tomorrow while it is yet today.We might not lay done what is "possible".We stop projecting "What abouts" and "What ifs".Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. When it comes right down to it, isn't this the whole crux of the matter ultimately?That...To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:19Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:21-23Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:25-27Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:11And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Rev 18:14And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Gen 1:31 Back to normalcy.For now, I know what it is that is the personal problem regarding sin and it is the same.I won't either. We are such arbitrary creatures, hovering somewhere inbetween Romans 6 and 8 (dastardly division breaks) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:1-2I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?Rom 7:21-24"Who" I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 7:25Interesting how this all comes to a point of summerization;There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Rom 8:1-19Normalcy!

You are correct Brother. Sin is NOT normal.Thank you.God bless you.

Let us pray, I must abide in my honesty and say that I don't know the pain that the woman that you have explained would feel or still feels. I want to say to you that there is a vital thing overlooked by far too many Christians today regarding what God requires of an individual. Moral character is predicated of the heart, motive, ultimate intention, and purpose of the individual. You say that you cannot do that which God requires you to do. This, may I say, is a contradiction. Please listen for I wish for you to retract any despondent views of yourself that are really emanations from your desire to be externally perfect. God never asks any person to do that which does not fall within the realm of their ability. The only exception to this is when a person is offered strength that is beyond them. Worry not for your physical ailments so much, but rather that your heart may be according to the will of God. "Cleanse the inside of the cup first and then shall the outside be clean also".I must say that I wonder at people who are in such a state as yourself. From whom have you heard the so called Gospel? A man says to me "I can not stop smoking". I reply "What Gospel have you heard!?"I hope that all of this will be taken as poured forth love. I quoted those scriptures that I quoted in order to evince the fact that there is victory over sin and that no person is necessitated to sin. I did not quote those scriptures in order to try and produce victory in your life.Can I ask you a question that I hope will sting you like an adder, for I think I know the answer already. "Have you ever been baptized with the Holy Ghost?" if so "Are you presently experiencing this baptism?" I am going to be so bold here to suggest to you that all these pains and distresses, though they will probably not leave in an instant, would be so ineffably insignificant in comparison to the things that the Spirit of God places on your heart when you are in such a state as that which is implied by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. A man was praying for me in a prayer meeting one time because my semi truck was having problems. I could not help but think that either the man was shallow or he thought that I was a child in my faith and was trying to condescend. What kind of prayer!? What waist of thought!? Now please don't think it inferred from this that I think God is so high and holy that he does not care for these things. I just wonder that this man did not see the hypocrisy in the church! Is God more concerned for my physical well being than he is for the sanctity of his church!? A prayer such as that, I can't help but think, is so inconsistent with the Spirit of God.Dear people, Have you ever been so filled with and baptized with the Holy Ghost that when you pray it is more like wrenching at your own soul before God for the salvation of this sinning world and the falsely so called Church of Christ? Do you know what it is to have your whole human frame fail utterly before God in prayer?May God speak to your hearts, Randy

Dear Brother Randy,Thank you for your words. To answer your question:Dear people, Have you ever been so filled with and baptized with the Holy Ghost that when you pray it is more like wrenching at your own soul before God for the salvation of this sinning world and the falsely so called Church of Christ? Do you know what it is to have your whole human frame fail utterly before God in prayer?Please click on:http://www.thefinalcall.net/?I_Sought_For_A_Man:Agonizing_PrayerGod bless you Randy

Hello Dorcas, it's my pleasure to meet you.These words followed immedately from this statement 'I must abide in my honesty and say that I don't know the pain that the woman that you have explained would feel or still feels.'Could you please explain how the first sentence is connected to the next two, if at all?Now I do apologize, the post was written in haste. I will try to write in such a way that will make me more understandable. The connection would be that certain ailments caused by a horrible past were regarded as having moral connotations. That God required something that could not be produced because of the ill past. Did Jesus esteem the physical ailments of those in the multitudes worthy of His attention (and therefore His time)?Can you explain how there can be sanctity in the church without the physical well-being of believers?Jesus, no doubt, regarded the physical ailments of the multitudes as worthy of his attention. However, did Christ heal every one with ailments? Was not Paul the Apostle riddled with ailments that the Lord never healed?It is not reasonable to say that because Christ was concerned with the ailments of the people that therefore he regards them as more important than holiness much less necessary to holiness.I can explain how there can be sanctity in the church while there is yet physical ailments by that which I have stated in my previous post, to wit, that moral character is predicated of the heart, motive, ultimate intention, and purpose of the individual. Scriptural Holiness I regard as moral uprightness. Holiness is synonymous with righteousness which consists in being right before God. If moral character is predicated of the heart then it follows that no physical ailments whatsoever can hinder righteousness. The only time when physical well being can hinder righteousness is when a person, seeing the benefits of well being, refuses to eat and live in such a way that is consistent with physical well being.I hope I have answered your questions. If I have not or if I have engendered more then please continue.With love in Christ, Randy

Hi Dorcas, Here is the Websters Dictionary's definition of the word 'connotation.Connotation /Con`no·ta´tion/ (?), n. [Cf. F. connotation.] The act of connoting; a making known or designating something additional; implication of something more than is asserted.So the meaning of my statement would be that the person with these physical ailments regarded the ailments as moral; that their morality was hindered by the ailments. what is the solution for the believer here?I don't know the full meaning of the question here and am not exactly sure how to answer.Is the question "What is the solution for the believer who has problems like the ones in question and is not capable of doing that which would be beneficial?" I answer, if you are incapable of doing that which you know the Lord would have you do then you ought to, first of all, believe that the Lord has some means outside of yourself that you are able to appropriate. And usually that thing which the Lord would have you to appropriate is help from Him. And the primary condition for receiving this help is, for whatever reason, importunate prayer. Secondly, engage yourself in the appropriation of this means outside of yourself. In most instances the Lord would have us to rely on him for this means outside ourself. If you know that such and such a thing is good and you know also that you do not have the capability do produce that good then you ought to seek for some form of help. If the most available, most trustworthy, and most efficient help is God then get to the task of asking Him to help. If you know also that He will help in such a situation as this, and we have that assurance so long as your prayer is not for the purpose of feeding your flesh, then you are bound to keep praying until you receive His help. This I would say is the proper answer for the Christian in any circumstance, if, of course, I have understood the question correctly.I do appreciate your latest post, thankyou, Randy

Hello, Dorcas.They don't automatically assume the morality of the assailant. If you were robbed, you don't immediately become a robber... Do you see what I mean?I do see what you mean and I hope you did not say that thinking that I thought a person assumes the moral character of the offender.Therefore, what is the morally assaulted person to seek the Lord for, if they themselves have not sinned, but, their inner man is weak and their body is physically affected by the strain of such invisible injury?I say that if a person was injured is some way that disabled them from doing the good that they would then they should ask the Lord to ask for help to do that which they can not do. There are many things that we need to approach the Lord for that are not related, directly, to forgiveness.Or, a moral assault (which compromised the spiritual, emotional or psychological integrity of the person) might render their inner man too weak to withstand a further assault on spirit, emotions or mental health?Surely these areas of 'being', even although they may have an affect on the physical well-being of a person, are completely invisible to the naked eye and yet their strengths are essential to the ability of anyone to maintain moral integrity?The only things that are essential in order for a person to be a moral agent is the capability to understand the difference between right and wrong and the faculty of choice to choose either the right or the wrong. I say this to evince the fact that no person can reach the point where they do not have the capability to perform their duty. What does it mean to "withstand a further assault on spirit, emotions or mental health"? Does it mean to continue making decisions that are consistent with righteousness? A person can never be robbed of the ability to make the right choices. I think that I do know what would properly be called spiritual weakness. I see spiritual weakness as a lack in good moral influence. When a person is attacked in horrible, unspeakable ways then they are being unwillingly subjected to an influence that is contrary to righteousness. This ill moral influence can take the form of mental anguish, physical depravity, and many other ways.What I'm unsure is, how can a person who has physical ailments be morally hindered by them?A person is not necessarily hindered by physical ailments. A person who chooses to sin because of some physical ailment does not so by necessity.Must go now.In Christ, Randy

Brother Randy,Jesus, no doubt, regarded the physical ailments of the multitudes as worthy of his attention. However, did Christ heal every one with ailments? Was not Paul the Apostle riddled with ailments that the Lord never healed?And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure (2Cor.12:7)Brother Randy, are you sure that you want to compare the thorn in the flesh given to Paul to keep him humble, to the devastating degradation done to young rape and sexual abuse victims? I cannot and I refuse to believe that my Savior Jesus Christ, who came to set the captives free, would allow a victim of sexual abuse to continue in their pain, so that His grace may be sufficient for him or her.Please consider my post It Is NOT Normal to Sin, But…..? I would also ask you to consider my response to you on the previous page regarding prayer which you didn't answer.I appreciate your sincerity, but I pray that you will ask our heavenly Father for His wisdom regarding this.God bless you.

" Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak" 2nd Cor 11:23-25I don't think that the only things that Apostle to the Gentiles was physically stricken with was his thorn in the flesh. I do not not compare the troubles of Paul with the troubles of the victim that you speak of. You don't think that the Lord would allow a person to endure these pains that you speak of. How do you know this. The Apostle probably thought the same thing about his thorn in the flesh otherwise he would have had no ground to pray for it's removal.Now, please, reason with me for a moment. Are these ailments that you speak of worse than cancer? Are there no Christians out there that have cancer? Are there any Christians out there that have any diseases? Why does not the Lord heal them? Is it because of their lack of faith?Please think on these things because the Lord does have his strength manifested in an individual through their weaknesses. If a person,enduring the pains that you speak of, knows that the Lord does not purpose to leave them in such distress then they should pray for deliverance and the Lord will heal them.As for the question that you wish me to answer, I confess that I do not know which one you are speaking of. I looked on the previous page and failed to find it. For both of our sakes please reitterate the question.Randy

Dear Brother,The below is the question you wrote in your post and my response to it. I copied it again here.QuoteThank you for your words. To answer your question:Quote:Dear people, Have you ever been so filled with and baptized with the Holy Ghost that when you pray it is more like wrenching at your own soul before God for the salvation of this sinning world and the falsely so called Church of Christ? Do you know what it is to have your whole human frame fail utterly before God in prayer?Please click on:http://www.thefinalcall.net/?I_Sought_For_A_Man:Agonizing_PrayerUnquoteTo respond to your comments above in your last post:I know that Paul was beaten and suffered a great deal from the hands of those who opposed him in preaching the Good News.I still find it difficult to compare that or put it in the same light as a young child that is abused by an authority figure.Paul knew the Joy of the Lord. He knew Jesus intimately. Little children, especially when they are younger then ten years old, usually don't know how to forgive; how not to make judgments, hence they don't experience the joy Paul had in Jesus.I will continue on the new thread I posted last night: It is NOT Normal to Sin, But....?Thank you for your responses Randy. God bless you.

Amen brother

I do see the vast difference between what Paul the Apostle went through and what a young victim of those horrible things went through. My point in the whole matter was never that the two were comparable in their substance. My point in the whole matter was that if the person who suffered was confident that God would not let them suffer any longer then they should have confidence to ask Him to heal them. I was suggesting that God could very well use those things that are endured day by day,by this certain individual,for his glory. I think that, psychologically speaking, the gospel is perfectly suited to meet all of our spiritual needs. Are there problems with forgiveness? This is a moral issue and no person has any right to refuse forgiveness from anyone when God has forgiven them. Anyone professing that they cannot forgive has moral issues that must be dealt with in order for them to get to heaven."But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt 6:15I think that God has healing in His wings for all of us if we go to him in prayer.Randy

"I desire compassion and not sacrifice"It amazes me that so many on this site once recieved the love of God shed abroad in their hearts through the hearing of the good news, and then turn their backs on that good news and make righteousness a work. Stop sinning! Is that our idea of the Gospel?Not one of us will EVER be more righteous than the moment Christ united His Spirit to ours! We don't earn righteousness before God, we derive it from a relationship with Him.If God is somewhere "out there" to be used by us to make us holy, then we've missed the point.So we see "sinners" around us that call themselves "Christians", remember that we were once that "sinner" ourselves, stop judging! Start praying!Let's take the beam out of our own eye before we try and remove the speck from our brothers' eye." The Pharisee stood and was praying this to HIMSELF: God, I thank you that I AM NOT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week;I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying "God be merciful to me , the sinner!" I tell you, this man went to his house JUSTIFIED rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

This is a great thread! Here are a couple not-too-long articles that I think go along well. They have ministered to my spirit.Why halfway Christianity won't workhttp://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_altar.htmlDeath to Selfhttp://www.acts17-11.com/death.html Be blessed! D.

Is that brimstone I smell?Amen, and amen I can't help but hear the tone of this opening post. To those who read this short reply to the original thread, I suggest that you start with the oldest post, read it and remember that when it comes down to whether or not you can stop sinning, the answer is Quote:unknown"It is not only that you can, you must."

How about stop crucifing the Son of God afresh!!

Quote:unknown"It is not only that you can, you must." That would be attributed to our own Philologos (Ron Bailey)

O how sin hurts God! Thats why we should stop sinning. O how it grieves God to sin. O that we would pray & fast until Christ be formed in us, until nothing but Christ...until all that this world can offer maybe vile to us.I dont want to hurt my MASTER.Stop sinning...stop hurting God.

Healing waters wrote, Quote: "Amen brother, Stop Sinning is the beginning of the journey. What comes afterwards is shear hell, but if we endure we will overcome the lust of the flesh"Hmm...When I stoped, what came afterwards was love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Did not read all of the replies, but I would just like to say Amen and thanks for the original message. I would like to point anyone who is interested to an author (who was recommended by Ravenhill) named George Asbury Mclaughlin. He has some really incredible writings that I have just started dipping into. They can be found on the Free revival cd that can be downloaded at www.freerevivalcd.com I would also highly recommend this cd to anyone who does not have it yet. Though i dont agree with everything presented, it is a wealth of revival resources from nearly all revival preachers of old.

A confession, a reality ... a plea

Derived out of and over the course of a number of days. It's disjointed and mixed up, may the Lord unravel it if it is to be of any benefit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Two things
I have learned
Nothing more grand
More inarticulate
More precious

Than the Lords Presence

Nothing more grievous
Nor diabolical
Nor crushing
Than to grieve
The Holy Spirit
And to feel

His absence

In both these
Past feelings
And emotions
And all rationale
But not bereft of any of them

It hurts more
Than the conscience knows
Though it does know
Knows in part

Why should I grieve God?
Why?
I have no recourse
No other to blame

Oh my repentance is pure
And my shame is pain
I have that which is sown
And a resolve that even
Needed repentance of

What is it you say
That brought forth,
Just this;

"It's not My will"

And I purposed to
Not obey
And went my own way

Could wish to speak
To what obedience is
How it has been turned
And abused
And laid waste

Yet it is
Breaking
Of a heart
Taken
And relinquished

And

More so
Far more so
The One who
Who came
And gave
And bled
And
Died

Oh wicked heart of man
To turn and grieve the heart of God

And so I purposed
In my sorrow
To never again do this thing
And heard myself say

"Am I liar? Surely I will again ...

... Lord"

And it stunned me.
"Shall I purpose in my heart...
To presume such a thing?"

Oh be it far from me!
It is the scourge of this hour
To presume upon God
To deny
A Holy life
To cease striving to be
Perfect,
As thy Father is perfect.

What is tomorrow's trouble
And yesterdays past
That has today's bearing
Before Thee?

And just as well
Will the Lord have mercy?
Faithful to forgive all manners
On a confession
And a turning away
And a turning towards
With brokenness and a contrite
Spirit
And
Truth

Surely it is so
And surely we oft
Latch unto this promise
Far too easily
Turn from conviction
And make light of it
In the name of
Getting on with it.

And my soul screams
No!

It is not so.
The right verse
At the wrong time

Have been made
To feel the pain
Of my lone decision
Let not the man
State, "Not so hard
on thyself, brother"
To which only recourse is;

"[i]Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God...

But those that be of men.[/i]"

Shall I or we dictate
The Lord's dealings?
Or assuage our guilt
Lightly?

It is no time for
Questions of eternal security
Rather of breach
Upon it

Such rubbish
This world's comfort
And it's counterfeit
Pain killers
Such has the saints
Bought into

No broken
Devastation
No acknowledgment
Of separation
That your sins
Have brought you

Tell my soul
It is not so

That there is no
Breach
When I know
A leaving
To ones own
Devices

Cast back upon
Mine own way
Cast out of His Presence
Need no explanation of
"Apart from Me"
"You can do nothing"

Psa 42:2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

Forget the prose
Let me speak freely
From a broken heart
And with all the raw sincerity I can muster

Do not come to this place of torment
Be it only a taste of an ultimate desperation.
Truly hell is this
This breach
This denial
Left to your own
Devices

I have gone back on my face before the Lord
To wrestle with myself over my sorry state
And the murmurings within;
"Shall I doll out and determine
My own punishment"?
Oh for a true silence
Before you!

"It's not My will"

I heard You loud and clearly
That I never forget this moment
And never again deny Thee

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Stop your wallowing
And play the man"

"Rise up"

"Confess your sin openly before the world"

And hear I thereby do.

I have sinned against Thee and Thee alone
And am staggered and tremble at these words
I repent in dust and ashes
And await Your righteous decision

Oh forgive me ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i]Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.[/i]
Jer 13:16

Woe unto the world because of offences!

... for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee,
Cut them off,
And cast them from thee:

It is better
For thee to enter into life
Halt or maimed,
Rather than having two hands
Or two feet
To be cast into everlasting fire.

And if thine eye
Offend thee,
Pluck it out,
And cast it from thee:

It is better for thee
To enter into life with one eye,
Rather than having two eyes
To be cast into hell fire.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Grieve not!

What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
That grace may abound?

God forbid!

How shall we,
That are dead to sin,
Live any longer therein?

Let this be warning
Look past the fool
And his many words

Take heed that you find this not lightly
And take your sin with utmost sincerity
Deny the easy way out
And the quick remedy

Grieve not...

And give heed
When you hear

"It's not My will"