The Schemes of the Devil

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:11). “Schemes” is translated from the Greek word “methodeia,” from which also the English word “method” is derived. Other translations for this word are: “cunning arts, deceit, craft, and trickery.” As Christians we have to expect to be deceived by the devil’s deception and trickery. It is for this reason that Jesus warned us on numerous occasions about deception, false teachers, false christs, etc. As Christians we don’t appear to take these warnings very seriously, judging by the amount of different teachings and denominational doctrines we follow rather than God’s Word. The opening Scripture from this letter to the Ephesian Church was written by Paul in approx. 60 A.D.; about 60 some years after Jesus taught the Lord’s Prayer to His disciples. I found it a bit troubling to be accused of starting a new cult by teaching people to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ. I certainly never said that this should be done because I SAID SO, but because the Bible gives us examples. Cult leaders usually insist that THEY BE FOLLOWED, I believe that I have strongly suggested that we would re-read the Bible and pray: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened (Eph.1:17,18). I actually went as far as posting this under a separate thread. If I insisted that I wrote the Book of Ephesians you have a point and I would hope that the moderators would shut me down immediately. I asked Greg Gordon permission before I posted my first post. As an aside, cult leaders as a norm don’t ask, they push their point. On my own website I don’t ask permission, I just explain what I believe the Lord has shown me. If you don’t agree, I will NOT be offended, and I have never asked anyone to follow ME. I believe that in the case of SI, I have asked permission and asked you to judge for yourself, you will bring account to God for your own actions; I certainly won’t do it for you. I pray for the Church now, but this burden will be lifted when I will be in glory. Hallelujah!I may be wrong, but if the entire Body of Christ would agree to pray to the Father through Jesus Christ, would we have become a cult? Personally, I have no problem facing my Savior on judgment day and explaining to Him that I took Him and His servant Paul seriously when both He and Paul actually gave us detailed prayers as how to pray. Personally I am very grateful that both Jesus and Paul gave us actual real examples, AND, when we understand what Paul is asking it is mind boggling as powerful as they are. These two prayers in Ephesians are so explicit about what it is that He is asking the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for, that it fills me with awe that God took this man and took him into heaven (physically or by vision) and that Jesus personally instructed him: For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:12) and, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven (2Cor.12:2)Before I close this post and write the next one, I want to address one more thing that jimbob raised about John 14Hans, sorry but Jesus did give us permission to ask HIM in prayer,"Whatever you ask in my name, that will I DO, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in MY name, I WILL DO IT."John 14:13&14.JimbobIt looks like you went on my site. Did you read this page?http://www.thefinalcall.net/?Eternal%26nbsp%3BFather:Ask_Me_In_My_NameThe KJV and the NKJV don’t translate this verse the same way as other translations. I will add to this page, because there are still more considerations that may play a role in the correct understanding of this Scripture. I would not hang my prayer life based on this “contested” Scripture. I do appreciate your challenge very much and thank God that He has allowed this.Bless you brother.

Hans, I also do not hang my prayer life on that scripture, nor do I pray to anyone but the Father, by the authority of the shed blood of Christ, and through the power of the Holy Spirit. I did challenge you! The dogmatic proclamations on your website warrant a challenge! What I would like to know is this, did you challenge yourself before you began the website? What I mean is did you pray to the Father to remove any vain imaginings and any self aggrandizing fantasies that have followed your dreams and revelations? Do you know for a fact that the Father wills you to do your website? If we don't follow HIS WILL our efforts will not produce fruit will they? Why do you suppose the Father led you to discuss these things with (Wilkerson?)only to have the door closed? In fact you have had many doors closed,are you SURE this is Gods message for the end times and YOU are called to be His messenger?I'm not trying to be funny here, but do you see yourself as Elijah, come to restore all things before the return of the Lord?I am sure these questions sound mean spirited, and they are not meant to be, but the gravity of your claims does warrant serious testing,and if found true then they will be brought to light and heard by those who are waiting to hear.I will be praying for you, pray for me also, Bob.

This is plainly prayer to "Jesus'“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7:59-60, KJVS)

What I mean is did you pray to the Father to remove any vain imaginings and any self aggrandizing fantasies that have followed your dreams and revelations? That's good :-) I think I'll use that!

Dear Brother Bob,Edit: No, I don't think I am Elijah.I cannot explain everything I have sought my Father about, since I have been seeking and confirming several words and dreams since September 2000. I don’t know why the door was closed w.r.t. David Wilkerson, I trust that God had His reasons. I am taking this more seriously than you may realize and will be open with you and share the prayer I pray regularly and even tonight, before I read your post and started writing this response:Dear Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that You will not use me to be a part of the deception that is on the Church of Jesus Christ. I pray that You will allow dialogue and the opportunity to share with everyone who is willing to study Your Word. Please, let me not lead anyone astray, if I offend anyone of Your children, please shut me down, if need be take my life. The Church is Your reward for Your Son Jesus Christ, and Father I want You to have all the glory and please don’t allow me to offend You or Your Son, or sin against the Holy Spirit. Father, this is the Bride of Your Son, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please have mercy on the Church that She will see what it is You have declared in Your Word, through Jesus Christ Your Son our Lord and Savior, Amen.Just while I am writing this I prayed it again with my wife, agreeing in the Name of Jesus, knowing that He is in our midst. Dear Bob, the last thing I want to do is to blow my own horn. I have given my life to my Lord, and if anyone wants the glory, take it. My reward is in being allowed to lift high the Name of Jesus to the glory of God the Father.I have prayed for you earlier after I read your post and will continue to do so. I thank you for praying for me as well. God bless you Bob.

I have read , as many of you all have , probably thousands of words on prayer , including the great prayer examples of the bible. But I think it goes beyond a formula or method.(I do use the prayers of the bible however). As deep speaks unto deep.....I believe prayer comes from the deep recesses of our being where we have come to rest in what and who Jesus is and we approach GOD in all His fullness fully trusting in Jesus and we make known all before His glorious presence.I say that because I have dear brothers who don't consider a pray as such unless it's pre-fixed by "In Jesus' name" , and while I understand thier actions here , sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch. :-(

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.This is the introduction of the enemy of the Church of Jesus Christ. The very first thing he does is question if Eve had heard it correctly. Was she really sure? This is the very first thing we have to remember about the devil, he will cause us to question God and His word. The response of Eve gives us another clue: she adds to the commandment of God and responds that she and Adam were not allowed to touch the tree. What is the lesson? Stick to God’s commandments and don’t reason with the devil. Why? Just as we understood from the Greek word for schemes [methodeia = cunning arts, deceit, craft, and trickery] in the first post, do we see here that the serpent was more subtil = shrewd, crafty, sly, etc.When we study the temptation of Jesus by the devil in Luke 4:1-13, the devil quotes Scriptures to Jesus. All that Jesus does is respond to the quotations of the devil with three quotes from Deuteronomy. He didn’t reason with the devil; He didn’t question him; He didn’t rebuke him, He just quoted Scripture. Is there anything in this account of the temptation from which we can learn? We saw that Eve added to God’s commandment and fell into sin. Jesus didn’t add a thing; He just quoted three direct references from Deuteronomy, and the devil left.I quoted Ephesians 6:11 in the first post. Let us now consider Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Here comes that word FINALLY. Paul is coming to the conclusion of the letter to the Ephesian Church. He has shared a lot of information about who we are in Christ, Ch.1:3-14; how we are changed from “dead in sin,” to “alive in Christ, and made one body as Gentiles with the Jews, Ch.2:1-22; then he explains the revelation of the mystery that has to be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realm THROUGH the Church, Ch.3:1-13; Paul follows this with an exhortation to unity, explaining that Christ gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to the Church, to equip and build up so as to attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God; I break this with the question that Jesus expressed in Luke 18:8: nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The NASB gives a footnote which reads: The faith. The unity of The faith, which the entire Body of Christ is called to achieve. The same unity He prayed and asked the Father for in John 17:23. Why would Jesus even waste His breath, if this question wasn’t valid?This entire letter to the Ephesian Church is a blueprint to Stand Firm Against the Schemes of The Devil. Paul explained in detail our position as Christians in Christ. There is however something in this letter that addresses being “filled with the Spirit.” This is the critical part the Church needs in order to Stand Firm. If we take away from this; if we attempt to question Who the Father is, Who Christ is, Who the Holy Spirit is, and don’t even bother to pray for understanding of the Revelation Paul prays for, the Church will not understand who She is and what Her position in Christ is. She will not be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.From the early beginning of the Church, questions were raised about the Trinity. Where these questions initiated by God and given to the Church to examine under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or was someone attempting to cause division? Paul was taught by Jesus Christ, surely he must have known what he did when he wrote the prayers in Ephesians 1:15-23 and Ephesians 3:14-21. Would he have misunderstood what Jesus taught him? Brothers and Sisters, I know that I make some strong statements. The reason that I believe I was given two names, is because I asked our Father to allow me to speak to someone who would have credibility. If I wanted glory, I would have carefully guarded this as my own. Who would I be kidding, God’s Word as my own? If Jesus found it necessary to quote straight Scripture references and the devil walked, why would we consider praying in a certain way, a formula? If the Church of Jesus Christ was united in Her understanding and teaching of the knowledge of the Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I wouldn’t be sitting here. I would be lying on the beach somewhere with my feet up, enjoying my retirement. Brother Bob, I love traveling. I traveled all over this globe from the age of twenty till I retired (lost my job) at the age of 57. If I wanted aggrandizement, fame, or just making a name for myself, I can think of at least 10 other things I could be doing right now. Yet, I thank my God that I am allowed to serve Him, because He is the One who gives me His Joy, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I have to confess it took me a few years to get to this point.In the next post I will continue with the book of Ephesians.

“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7:59-60, KJVS)Hi Hans,Had asked about this elsewhere as well.Remember, you did say something to the effect of "I don't see how anyone could (would?)ask Jesus or the Holy Spirit for anything".Nothing critical in intent, just trying to understand why you feel so adamant about this.

Dear Mike,I am not adamant about this by reason of logic. I believe it more to be what is inside of me. I will leave it for SI to test it. I am preparing the next post for this thread, and I hope to have it posted before tonight. I only pray that you will ask the Lord for wisdom, as I am sure you are.God bless you,

HansIn response still to your insistence that all prayer be to the Father alone, I wonder if you have considered Christian hymns which are often just 'prayers' with music... Your ban would eliminate hundreds of traditional hymns. The following one is just one of hundreds by Wesley alone.O Thou Who camest from above,The pure celestial fire to impart,Kindle a flame of sacred loveUpon the mean altar of my heart.There let it for Thy glory burnWith inextinguishable blaze,[or, Unquenched, undimmed, in darkest days,]And trembling to its source return,In humble prayer and fervent praise.Jesus, confirm my heart’s desireTo work and speak and think for Thee;Still let me guard the holy fire,And still stir up Thy gift in me.Ready for all Thy perfect will,My acts of faith and love repeat,Till death Thy endless mercies seal,And make my sacrifice complete.This is very clearly prayer to 'Jesus', while this one is plainly addressed to the Holy Spirit.Come, Holy Ghost, our hearts inspire,Let us Thine influence prove:Source of the old prophetic fire,Fountain of life and love.Come, Holy Ghost, for moved by TheeThe prophets wrote and spoke;Unlock the truth, Thyself the key,Unseal the sacred book.Expand Thy wings, celestial Dove,Brood o’er our nature’s night;On our disordered spirits move,And let there now be light.God, through Himself, we then shall knowIf Thou within us shine,And sound with all Thy saints below,The depths of love divine."Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. It would seem to be the consistent evidence of history that Christians from Stephen onwards have prayed (and sung) to 'Jesus'.

I wonder if you have considered Christian hymns which are often just 'prayers' with music...I was just thinking this same thing earlier this morning as I was listening to the old hymn 'I Surrender All'...All to Jesus I surrender; all to him I freely give; I will ever love and trust him, in his presence daily live. Refrain:I surrender all, I surrender all, all to thee, my blessed Savior, I surrender all. 2.All to Jesus I surrender; humbly at his feet I bow, worldly pleasures all forsaken; take me, Jesus, take me now. (Refrain) 3.All to Jesus I surrender; make me, Savior, wholly thine; fill me with thy love and power; truly know that thou art mine. (Refrain) 4.All to Jesus I surrender; Lord, I give myself to thee; fill me with thy love and power; let thy blessing fall on me. (Refrain) 5.All to Jesus I surrender; now I feel the sacred flame. O the joy of full salvation! Glory, glory, to his name! (Refrain) Also, while reasoning this out from Scripture I was considering the following verses as they relate to this topic, first from John's gospel...For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (Joh 5:22-23)Would not honoring the Son even as we honor the Father inculde asking things of Him?And also this verse...But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1Co 8:12)If we sin against Christ in this manner, shouldn't we ask Christ Himself for forgiveness?In Christ,Ron

Brother Ron (InTheLight),I am sorry, but I will address your post in my next post, I am answering some previous ones in this one.Ron B, you said:In response still to your insistence that all prayer be to the Father alone, I wonder if you have considered Christian hymns which are often just 'prayers' with music... Your ban would eliminate hundreds of traditional hymns.Ron, do you really think that I don’t know that? Don’t you realize that I know the implications of the things I say? I know very well that some – and maybe for some of you, many – of the things I say sound preposterous. They appear outright ludicrous if you consider all the implications as they pertain to worship, prayer, and Christian living in general. It is therefore a miracle that God has allowed this to be posted. It is for exactly this reason that I understood Him to say that the Church wouldn’t listen. I understand the objections of Jimbob very well. Especially since less than ten years ago I led an entire congregation in prayer to the Holy Spirit asking for exactly what Ernest O’Neill, R.A. Torrey and many highly regarded men of God have taught. I want to underscore this one more time: I DON’T INSIST YOU TO DO ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO PRAYER OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER, BUT TO CONSIDER THE CONTEXT OF SCRIPTURE WITHOUT THE ADDED INTERPRETATION OF ALL PREVIOUS SAINTS. I typed this in capitals, because I still haven’t been able to get some of the font functions to work on this Forum.Dohzman, you said:I say that because I have dear brothers who don't consider a pray as such unless it's pre-fixed by "In Jesus' name" , and while I understand thier actions here , sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.Saints at SI, I want you to consider the statement by Dohzman very carefully: “sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.” This is in line with a very popular phrase which is used very commonly in the Church: God looks at the heart; He doesn’t consider the “formula” as much as He considers the sincerity.I am surprised that you would say that Dohzman, for this statement is not in my Bible. This is a humanistic interpretation of the love of God. This is what my Bible says:Proverbs 128 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early [also diligently], but they shall NOT find me:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:Isaiah 661 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.The key to all obedience is the “trembling” at God’s word. This means that you take it so seriously that it will bring you to tremble, because of Its power and the implications if you change it.Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.Here is Paul writing a letter to the Ephesian Church, and I believe that it is applicable for today to. After all, the devil is still active according to my Bible. In verse 10 Paul started Ch.6:10 with the word FINALLY. Two verses later he explains that we wrestle against principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places.How did Jesus cause the devil to walk? By quoting direct Scripture. He didn’t modify it, He didn’t say: I am the Son of God get away from me. No, He did what we should do too; He used the sword of the Spirit, the word of God. What has happened from the very early days of the Church? We started to debate the Trinity; we attempted to “dissect” God. And, even more troubling, we decided Who God really was. Of course, not everyone agreed with everyone else, so we started to “create” different waves of doctrine, all based on OUR UNDERSTANDING AND EXPLANANTION of Who God really is. We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,” as some of you see this, to stand Firm Against the schemes of the devil. Paul was either by vision or physically (he doesn’t even appear to be certain himself) taken up to the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and he then writes a letter, which by the grace of God still exists today and explains explicitly how we are to stand firm against the devil and his minions, and we discount it in favor of the prayer of a dying man and/or what is written in Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (I say this to with joy and longing as an exclamation more than a prayer, and just in this context, for it isn’t a substitute for the Book of Ephesians).If you are satisfied and continue to ask the Holy Spirit to fill you and anoint you, I am not telling you to stop. BUT, please allow me to continue with the next post. I will, God willing, go deeper into this subject, and pray that you will receive the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Hans, At my conversion I was sitting alone in the wilderness in sand and ashes, with a gun in front of me and making the choice to live or die. Now no one was giving me the "gospel", but I knew if I were to go on living I would have to change. I cried out "SAVE ME JESUS! SAVE ME JESUS!". Did the Father hear that prayer? For it also was the prayer of a dying man.

We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,” What I'm thinking is, that because this account of Stephen's final prayer is in the Bible, then it is part of the "formula". I would consider a substitute to be something outside of Scripture. The Bible says Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he looked and saw God in His glory on His throne and Jesus at His right hand. To Jesus he made petition, receive my spirit and lay not this sin against them.In Christ,Ron

Basically what I was getting at was a kind of, how does Bro. Ron say it?, Magic word. By praying a formula, even the "Our Father Prayer " can be a formula, we make God out to be our servant and seperate from Him His soverienty. By in large people think that by adding Jesus name or praying to the Father in Jesus name it's like a "magic word" that makes the pray acceptable. Our prayers must be born out of a relationship and a walk of obedience to His Word , with honesty from the heart at all times.

Ron (InTheLight),If we sin against Christ in this manner, shouldn't we ask Christ Himself for forgiveness?1 John 17 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.If I am correct, the context of this Scripture would lead us to confess our sin to God the Father and receive forgiveness from God the Father, because of the shed blood of Christ. Christ already paid the price all the sin of the entire world “once for all,” so we can obtain freedom from the clutches of the devil.1John 22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.1 Peter 318 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;Bob (jimbob),I quote the following excerpt from:http://www.thefinalcall.net/?Perfected_in_Unity“A number of years ago, I met a young lady who was a Bahai. She had a beautiful spirit and I wanted to share my faith in Christ with her. I thought that she would make a beautiful Christian. One day we met and I started to share with her about my love for Jesus. I also asked how she came to be a Bahai. She smiled and said: “Silly, I was a Christian but I wasn’t being fulfilled. I knew there had to be more, so I asked Jesus to tell me. “He” told me that I should become a Bahai. I know that “he” led me on the right path because now I experience the fullness of God.”To this day I still wonder what would have happened if she had asked the Father in Jesus’ name?”After your testimony jimbob, I have to conclude that may be she wasn’t “pre-destined.” But I don’t even want to go there, for it is another distraction. I praise the Lord for you, that He answered you. Yours is not the only testimony I have heard. I know a number of people who have had similar experiences as yours, yet one of my best friends committed suicide after similar cries unto the Lord. His weren’t answered. I talked to him for months; he was serious and desperate. The worst thing was that it was clear that just before he died, he attempted to get himself free from the cord he had rigged. Jimbob, it almost caused me to walk away from my belief in God. We can go into a long debate why or why not, but it will only sidetrack us from where I believe we should go, before we question every step. There is a point that has to brought into this: our reconciliation to the Father. It is a critical part of this. Dear friends, I don’t have all the answers, all I have is the Bible and what I believe the Lord has told me. I am willing to complete to share what I believe He has shown me, or, just go to my website, for I wrote it there too. If you believe that the prayer of Jesus to His Father in John 17:23 is displayed through the Church of the year 2005, I will cease and desist. This is not a threat, please don’t even think that. If it wasn’t for the Joy in the Lord I have, I would run from this. Just writing it on my own website is much simpler, but this Forum allows a discussion. Let us please keep an open mind and consider the topic at hand in light of the schemes of the devil who – the Bible tells us – is transformed as an angel of light.

Hi hans, you have an interesting angle on things, you said: I am not adamant about this by reason of logic. I believe it more to be what is inside of me. Is this personal revelation, been scrutinized by the breadth of scripture? It appears to me that what you are saying is correct, but partly so. There are many versus that have been quoted that throw another light on the interpretation of the word of God in regards to this matter.This is dangerous stuff you are posting here, by saying these things you are closing any doors to possible genuine doubts and concerns of where your 'insides' are going... ...do you really think that I don’t know that? Don’t you realize that I know the implications of the things I say? I know very well that some – and maybe for some of you, many – of the things I say sound preposterous. They appear outright ludicrous if you consider all the implications as they pertain to worship, prayer, and Christian living in general. It is therefore a miracle that God has allowed this to be posted. It is for exactly this reason that I understood Him to say that the Church wouldn’t listen. If you browse through the archives of this site you may come across a group of threads dealing with the prophetic call, ministry and outworking of it. There was one member of this community who starting posting as in speaking in the first person for God. It caused quite a stir, because he basically had the same thinking that you have posted above for validating his message ie God gave me this message, and he knew that you wouldn't believe me sort of thing . Please be aware at this stage of my postings on this topic I have'nt even begun to speak about your reasoning on prayer. At the momment there is just a flag waving. You asked us at SI to test what you are saying, and to me I have a check, the whole truth is not there.

Quote:By in large people think that by adding Jesus name or praying to the Father in Jesus name it's like a "magic word" that makes the pray acceptable. Our prayers must be born out of a relationship and a walk of obedience to His Word , with honesty from the heart at all times.Jesus Speaking,John 14:13,14 (New Privilege In Prayer)And whatever you ask in My name that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If you ask ANYTHING in My name, I will do it.If you ask anything in the name of Jesus, that he will do. If and only If it is aligned with God's perfect will. Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.Walking in Obedience to his word, is walking in love. It is walking in obedience to his commandments.When making your petitions and your request known to the father in prayer, if your heart is not right, you will know in your spirit.From my own personal experience, this is when I've had to stop, repent ask the Lord to create in me a clean heart, (Psalm 51:10)release any past hurts and offense, forgive and start over.It is then and only then, that I have been able to seal my request with the name that is above all names, (In Jesus Name)

You asked us at SI to test what you are saying, and to me I have a check, the whole truth is not there.At the moment I am still struggling to get a hold on what Hans is advocating here. I have visited the website and can pick up the atmosphere but what is the issue here? Are you saying that if all prayer is made to the Father alone that something will change somewhere. Are you just wanting us to stop using the phrase 'in the name of Jesus' ('though I haven't used it for decades!)? Or are you trying to say something about the relative 'importance' of the Father and the Son? If it is the simple message The Father reconciled the entire world to Himself through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.We must pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.If we pray differently, we are disobedient. as displayed on your website, then I reject that as a 'word from God' to the church at this time.

Though I respect Hans' belief and sincerity, I would have to disagree too. After reading his statements, he has basically made all of our conversions questionable. As a sinner your first prayer has to be to Jesus for it is His blood that washes away all sin. This has to be correct because God cannot look upon sin, so you could not enter into his presence without the blood "being applied". I really don't believe this "who we pray to" issue is bothering God as much as some would think. First God is not the author of confusion, and by making God the Father the one whom all your prayer and supplications go to, it sort of diminishes Christs and the Holy Spirits role in our lives. Christ is the focal point, all praise and Glory is to go to Him, He is your elder brother, the great High priest, King og kings and Lord of lordsHe is the Savior of your soul. In fact God the Father even steps (relinquishes His due Honor and Glory) aside and commands all honor goes to Jesus Christ, His son.

At the moment I am still struggling to get a hold on what Hans is advocating here.I have been following this discussion with interest. Regrettably the basic proposition is still unclear to me. I don't know if I am just being dense... Some of the components of this discussion remind me of the accounts of disputes with the semi-arians at the council of Nicea. I wonder if all of this is pointing to an oblique doctrine that Christ is similar to the Father, of similar divine "substance", but still subordinate. Am I missing something or can we rule this implication out?Thanks,MC

Dear SI Church,I have read your comments, exhortations, and warnings. I appreciate the candor by which some of you have responded. I have a difficult time reconciling some of the things I read in my Bible with the things you say. Maybe you can do me a favor, and explain your interpretations of some questions that many practices in worship and prayer raise in my mind, and things taught by the different well-known teachers and pastors from the past and present.What is your explanation for the fact that we have Christians who accept the gifts for today and those who don’t? Did God change? Did the Holy Spirit, the Giver of the fruit and gifts, change? This is what a large part of the Christian Church teaches. Don’t we need discernment anymore? Or are there two Holy Spirits, one for the “gifts died with the Apostles,” or, the “gifts are for today.” Praise God that God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, hasn’t changed. When we declare that the working of the Holy Spirit changed, while God didn’t change, aren’t we speaking for God? God certainly didn’t inspire anyone to write this in His Word.Someone states that God isn’t necessarily “bothered about who we pray to as much as some would think.” Forgive me, but isn’t this speaking for God, the same thing some are telling me that I do? The God in my Bible never changes. It seems that He was more “strict” in the Old Testament than in the New Testament? Or maybe, He still is just as strict about worship except WE have decided that He isn’t.There are many versus that have been quoted that throw another light on the interpretation of the word of God in regards to this matter.Please Zeke, give me just one so I can address it. And who’s interpretation did I change, God’s or man’s?Why did the Father reconcile the world to Himself through Jesus Christ? Is it something we should concern ourselves with, or is it a non-event? It is exactly this fact that is confirmed by the Holy Spirit who is the Seal of our reconciliation to the Father. It is the same Holy Spirit we are given as the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out Abba! Father! When you say that it makes no difference and we continue to pray to Jesus or as many do, to the Holy Spirit, are you not speaking for God? Forgive me if I am confused about this interpretation, but the Holy Spirit of God, described in God’s word as the Spirit of Adoption, who – as far as read my Bible – makes me cry out Abba Father; why would He instead cause me to cry out Holy Spirit please anoint me, please show me what has to be cleaned up in my life? Is this God speaking, or is it men’s interpretation?John 1613 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.I am not going to argue about whether you pray to Him or not. I talk to Him but I think He is a spirit of Jesus…..I don't exalt (=praise, sing the praises of) the Holy Spirit. He always glorifies Jesus. That is what Jesus said, "The Holy Spirit will not bear witness to Himself, and He will always bear witness to me." (Ernest O’Neill; The Holy Spirit brings a clean heart).if we think of the Holy Spirit only as an impersonal influence or power, then we are robbing a Divine Person of the worship which is His due (R.A. Torrey; The Personality of the Holy Spirit).First is the Scripture spoken by Jesus; then a quote from Ernest O’Neill, followed by a quote from R.A. Torrey. If we worship the Holy Spirit, how much should we worship the Holy Spirit? Why doesn’t Ernest O’Neill worship the Holy Spirit? Or is it like all the other different interpretations we have, God really isn’t so particular about it all, for He looks at our heart. Do you know what Jesus said about all this? If you love Me, you obey My commandments. When Jesus in John 16:13 states that the Holy Spirit doesn’t speak on His own initiative, but takes from Jesus and shows us what is to come, and Jesus told us to ask the Father in His (Jesus) name, and Paul in Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 3 prays to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and asks for the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus had told us that the Father would give the Holy Spirit to those who asked……Why do you say that I am misinterpreting Scripture? Why do so many insist that we talk to the Holy Spirit, while it is NOT specified in Scripture, while the Scriptures I quoted are?Who is speaking for God here? Am I, by quoting His Word, or are it those who give their own interpretation of it?If I, by making these statements form a cult and/or lead people astray, I am guilty as charged.

Hi brother :-) I've read through the posts again but I can't find where anyone specifically stated that we should pray to the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost per se'. The Lord God is ONE God. He has revealed Himself to us In Jesus Christ who is very God , Like the sun -- you have the core, the effulgence, and the invisiable sun rays, that would be simular to the God Head. One God. You can't remove any part and have God. I kinda think :-o maybe I know where you're coming from, somewhat :-( , Can I ask you a question: Did you have a rehma or was the Word of God enlightened to your understanding in a manner that instructed you in a course of action? As pretains your personal prayer life?

We take the prayer of a man who is being stoned and just about to die, and use it to substitute the “formula,” as some of you see this, to stand Firm Against the schemes of the devil. Paul was either by vision or physically (he doesn’t even appear to be certain himself) taken up to the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and he then writes a letter, which by the grace of God still exists today and explains explicitly how we are to stand firm against the devil and his minions, and we discount it in favor of the prayer of a dying man and/or what is written in Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (I say this to with joy and longing as an exclamation more than a prayer, and just in this context, for it isn’t a substitute for the Book of Ephesians).Whoa there Hans...Isn't this reading a bit much into things? Where did you extrapolate all that from, by just a mention of a scripture that was brought forth to be taken into consideration...Brother there is no ulterior motive here, honestly. This happens quite often unfortunately. There was no reaching to a formula, never even occurred to me to make that connection. Hans, I honestly can hear your heart in this and don't think you are far off at all... maybe it's in going too far, but if this wasn't so dogmatic and didactic I can see where you are making some excellent points. There is a great deal of misappropriated things that you have pointed out.But this is rather confusing;Dohzman, you said:Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I say that because I have dear brothers who don't consider a pray as such unless it's pre-fixed by "In Jesus' name" , and while I understand thier actions here , sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Saints at SI, I want you to consider the statement by Dohzman very carefully: “sometimes it cheapens the very prayer to the very God it was intended to touch.” This is in line with a very popular phrase which is used very commonly in the Church: God looks at the heart; He doesn’t consider the “formula” as much as He considers the sincerity.I am surprised that you would say that Dohzman, for this statement is not in my Bible. This is a humanistic interpretation of the love of God. This is what my Bible says:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Isn't this part of what you are bringing out? The very issue of making an anything goes approach or in this case a formalistic 'add on' as Dohzman pointed out....Hans, I really think there is a high amount of understanding where you may be going with this... It just seems there is an 'always' quality to it or more so "only". It is quite natural to pray directly to the Father... and surely the excess's ought to be mentioned, it just seems to go too far.Hope you do take Zekeo's thoughts to heart though, we have been through this before. Remember that there are many, many saints that come through here and I am glad that they will hold us and each other accountable to the best of understanding of the scriptures. So a challenge it is not necessarily, not with a motive of anything other than helping each other. Questions and considerations.

Hi Hans, seeing as this was a direct question, I have to honour your enquirey:Please Zeke, give me just one so I can address it. And who’s interpretation did I change, God’s or man’s?I may be picking on something that may be a sideshow, but it is the scripture in acts about Stephen praying to Jesus. In the context of what you are saying this may prove nothing, but in contrasting your position that you have taken it indicates that Jesus does indeed receive prayer, and hear it. And the Father does'nt seem to have an issue with it.In regards to interpretation of things, the scriptures that you have posted indeed point and validate the direction of your 'insides' (I don't want to use reason/logic, because of your comments about it).And I'm not trying to be funny or treat your postion with scorn, I'm trying to work with what you have given us. The problem however is that there is this scripture which says 'pray to the Lord of the harvest...' it is generally accepted that the Lord of the Harvest is Jesus, not that I am at all trying to split the triune God. It shows that as much as what you say is true, there is scripture to pull your position to more central application.The two versus by no means are proof enough to build a doctrine of 'thou shalt not pray to the Father' but are there to keep a position such as yours in tension. From my limited experience of life and the Lord, going down this avenue as with any truth can lead us to a cul-de-sac of our knowledge of him and of His work in the world. It is sobering because we can get to the position that because this one truth is lacking in the church the church is a mess. From our position, if people just grasped this one truth we would reach perfection, and all the problems would dissappear. This position normally comes from focussing to much on one angle of understanding the word 'the way we see it'. Anyone who has studied church history will know that the problems in the church are allot more diverse and varied than just this one issue.I hope you are getting what I am saying, I am trying as best I can to treat what you are saying with respect and not just dismiss it.

What is your explanation for the fact that we have Christians who accept the gifts for today and those who don’t? Did God change? Did the Holy Spirit, the Giver of the fruit and gifts, change? This is what a large part of the Christian Church teaches. Don’t we need discernment anymore? Or are there two Holy Spirits, one for the “gifts died with the Apostles,” or, the “gifts are for today.” Praise God that God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, hasn’t changed. When we declare that the working of the Holy Spirit changed, while God didn’t change, aren’t we speaking for God? God certainly didn’t inspire anyone to write this in His Word....and you think that all this will be cured if we only pray to the Father? How shall we enjoy the 'communion of the Holy Spirit' unless we talk to Him? and such talk would be prayer. As it happens much of my prayer is to the Father and I don't use the 'sign off' of 'in the name of Jesus' but to say that to commune with the Son and the Spirit is disobedience is presumptious.What do you make of this statement? John 14:23 (KJVS) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. If I came and made my home with you, would you never talk to me?Here is my favourite 'song'“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Rev. 5:9-10, KJVS)Are those who sing this song 'disobedient'?

Han's,On your website you claim to call the church to unity by praying to the Father only. Yet the only thing your proclamation has produced is dis-unity! In my opinion your idea (if followed) would create yet another schism in the body, as is evidenced by the fact that it has been adequately refuted by the members of this site, yet you seem to be unwavering in your belief.I was once a Seventh Day Adventist so I do know something about the cultic mindset. I fear you are already well down this pathway. Listen to what the others here have said to you, drop the dogmatism!If you indeed want to follow the Fathers will than I implore you pray THIS prayer;Father I submit my mind to Your Mind, my thoughts to Your thoughts, my spirit to Your Holy Spirit. Father remove all of my vain imaginings, delusions of grandeur, and clear my mind of any precepts that are not from You.Friend, you seriously need to step back from your computer for a couple of weeks and pray that prayer for a while.

Dear Church at SI.Let us begin at the beginning. When God gives mankind a rule, a precept, a commandment if you wish, and we modify it in the slightest, have we not placed ourselves above God? Who was the one who desired to receive the glory that belongs to God? Satan, he is the one who desires the worship that belongs to God. Satan is the enemy of God and of the Church of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that he is transformed as an angel of light, as are those who are deceived by him.2 Corinthians 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Every time we place ourselves above the Word of God or attempt to give a different explanation to His Word, we run the risk of being deceived by an enormous intelligent, certainly much wiser being than we are. We have only one hope and that is Christ. Under the new covenant under the Blood of Jesus, we have an assurance and a blessing that none of the Old Testament saints had.It is for that reason that Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesian Church explaining in exact detail HOW WE COULD STAND FIRM against the schemes of the devil. We have to consider who Paul is. He was the well educated and very zealous persecutor of the Church when he was present at the stoning of Stephen. Was he present when Stephen cried out just prior to his death? Acts 758 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.It would appear that Paul (still called Saul) was present when Stephen committed his spirit to Jesus. Yet, a number of years later, after Paul has been taken into the third heaven and taught by Jesus, and writes a very well defined letter explaining how to stand strong in the strength of God’s mighty power, he doesn’t once mention the prayer that Stephen made and he doesn’t even begin to suggest any differently than is recorded in this letter to the Ephesians. However in this letter he demonstrates how he prays for other believers. Paul never mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Didn’t Paul know about this “sure” way to overcome every fleshly temptation? Did Paul lead the Ephesian church astray by teaching them to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit as he so eloquently did? If anyone was justified to pray to Jesus, it was Paul, for he – except for the third wave prophets of the 21st century – is the only one who actually spoke to Jesus face-to-face (being it in a vision or in the flesh). The question that has come to my mind many times is, why, if Paul bothered to write this, do we “improve” on the written word? Do we have a better revelation? If we very carefully study the prayers in Ephesians and consider all the teaching in this letter, why do we argue? First Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father. As I explained in other posts, the use of verbs in the imperative, indicate: one MUST. He mentions the fact that we should ask the Father in his name not once, but a number of times. From the very early beginning man has attempted to define God. We have very well educated scholars explaining how we can understand God and how we can justify the relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Does this not bother anyone of you; putting a definition on God? The infinite wise God; the everlasting God; the omnipotent God; the Holy One of Israel, we are explaining Him and how we can interact with Him? Is it really God Himself who causes us to do that? We cannot now or ever will, especially in the fleshly state we are, be able to justify changing anything that God has told us to do. There is no way that we can outsmart the devil, unless we stick to the written word. As soon as we “interpret” it, will we loose and be deceived. Jesus came to the earth to do two things: He paid the price for our sin, that is, He saved us from our sin, AND He restored the relationship between the Father and us. As the seal – the spiritual confirmation – He promised the fellowship with the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible the Holy Spirit makes us want to cry out Abba! Father! Paul in His letter to the Ephesian Church prays by example to the Father in to context of standing Firm Against the schemes of the devil. I asked that we could stick with the Bible and not man’s interpretation of the Bible. If man’s interpretation had been correct, there would be One Faith and One Body of Christ.Having just read jimbob’s last post, I will do exactly that. God bless you all.

Paul never mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Didn’t Paul know about this “sure” way to overcome every fleshly temptation? Did Paul lead the Ephesian church astray by teaching them to pray for the filling of the Holy Spirit as he so eloquently did? If anyone was justified to pray to Jesus, it was Paul, for he – except for the third wave prophets of the 21st century – is the only one who actually spoke to Jesus face-to-face (being it in a vision or in the flesh). This is very strange logic...“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”(Acts 19:6-7, KJVS)... this refers to the events which took place at Ephesus and the unalterable story of the Ephesian church. It is always important to read the whole scripture in the context of all scripture, otherwise we come to unwarranted conclusions.“Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (Matt. 4:7, KJVS) The phrase 'be being filled with the Holy Spirit' from Eph. 5:18 does not cancel out the record of a crisis in which a man receives the fulness of the Spirit;“And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 9:17, KJVS)I think you have come to a point where you are striving too much to establish a single point and to demolish all others. I personally think it is most appropriate (and most natural) to pray to the Father, but I regard the very name of Jesus as a prayer "Saviour" which I pray constantly. I also find an instinctive cry to the Spirit for continual fillings. Your error is to in trying to create a watertight doctrine in which it becomes, in the words of your web page, "disobedience" to pray to the Son or the Spirit. This takes your point much too far and makes it self-destructive.