MUST SEE!!! MUST SEE!!! CHECK THIS OUT!!!

Check this out! Go to this church website and at the bottom of the page you will see a banner called "fire without brimstone" click there. Is this the new big "workshop" to hit the churches? I know this church is on the cutting edge of the Saddleback - Willow Creek curriculum/sermons series type of stuff.Kensington Community Church

I am shocked at how many professing Christians like to make jokes by mocking the scriptures. Jesus would not have been invited to teach there...

At first I thought it was a joke. Now I'm just sad, no..... heart broken :-o I'm not so sure I'd want to stand before Almighty God on the day of judgement giving that kind of counsil.

huh? :-? Please tell me what I missed? There is something that I am supposed to be seeing, but quite honestly, what?Maybe I'm just backslidden. Please pray that I wouldn't tolerate compromise.8-) :-P

You people went to those councils yet?Perhaps you should check it out before judging it.Have to admit that it doesn't look that appealing to me at first glance..

If you click on the banner "fire without brimstone" it takes you to the seminar page with its description I'll paste it here for you to see,, than you can judge for yourself. Fire Without Brimstone: New 1-part, four hour workshop (replaces Contagious Christianity)“You shouldn’t stand on a street corner and use a bullhorn to share your faith! And you don’t need to go door-to-door in your neighborhood either. Part of our Base Camp series, learn why evangelism isn’t what you think it is through interactive teaching, table discussion, and movie clips.” There it is , judge for yourself.

I have already signed up and am definitely going to this. You are right Greg, this is flat out lies, and someone needs to be a voice of Truth. I hope to take a couple dozen DVD’s of “Hell’s Best Kept Secret” and maybe “True And False Conversions” to pass out to the attendees, if the Lord is willing. Does any one know where I can get a couple of dozen of these DVD’s or any other resources that would be good to take with me. Anyone from the Detroit area that wants to go with - just let me know. Please pray that the Holy Spirit will speak through me and I may give a strong and good witness for Jesus Christ.

ChristiskingI'm sure if you contact Ray Comfort's ministry they will be more than willing to help you out

They are probably on this site. If you have a DVD burner, just use that.

You shouldn’t stand on a street corner and use a bullhorn to share your faith! And you don’t need to go door-to-door in your neighborhood either.A wrong spiritIt's the spirit behind it that speaks volumes. And a little bit of that spirit is being revealed through these two words: "You shouldn't..."I don't sense any kind of balance here. I don't sense any kind of love for the lost or love for those who preach Christ in these words. If they had read their Bible, they would have read: "What does it matter? The important thing is that in every way...Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice." (Phil 1:18)Now...to clarify this verse a little bit, it doesn't say: "What does it matter? The important thing is that their intentions are sincere...". I've heard this argument being used so many times: "but they do it with the right intensions". They sure do...but the Gospel isn't preached! So Paul says that he rejoices in the preaching of the true Gospel, even though the motives of those who preach are false. He doesnt rejoice in the preaching of a false Gospel, even though the motives of those who preach are true! ...and in this case...both the intentions and the Gospel are false. The intention is to provoke, not to win the lost to Christ. And the Gospel is false, because Jesus never says that we should not preach the Gospel on a street corner or whatever. He even says: "Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled.Not a "should not", but a "need not always"I don't know if I'm going to step on anyones toes, but I say this with a sincere heart and a desire to see Christ magnified in this world through us...by God!Though I sense a wrong kind of spirit in the words of these people by saying "you should not!", I believe there is room in the Bible for a "not necessarily always need to". I don't necessarily agree with the people who say "you must go out and preach the Gospel on the street corners" as well. It's not a matter of "should", it's a matter of being in the will of God for your life. Oh, but let me clarify this once again, since so many people use this only as an excuse for not sharing Christ with people. You've probably heard this time and time again: "Well, I don't think I have the gift of being an evangelist". What nonsense! It's just like you see someone drowning and you say: "I don't think I have the gift of saving this poor fellow". How in God's name are you able to not share Jesus Christ with the people around you??The point I'm trying to make is very simple:"I held back nothing of what is profitable, so as not to announce [it] to you, and to teach you publicly and in every house..." (Acts 20:20)And a little but further on, Paul says: I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself...(20:24)For some of us, God has the calling to go and preach the Gospel on the street corners. On others He has placed an intense calling of living out the Gospel. Others have received the calling to teach the Gospel. Some of us may have a deep calling from God to pray for people (and let no-one take this calling lightly...as long as prayer doesn't become a subsitute of obedience!).And what's the purpose of it all? A purpose driven life? Forget it! Our chief end has to be the glory of God! Not our hapiness, nor our success, neither our ways of preaching Christ. Brothers and sisters...let us press on to know Him and to make Him known. By the way we live, speak, make choices, take a stand for Him, dress, pray, love, fellowship etc.And finally, for all of us may this be(come) true (and this certainly is a point of improvement in my life):"Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Col 1:27-29)In the One who deserves all glory and honor!Paul

Paul, excellent reply :-) In Him, Chanin

Just go to the home page and click on About Us and read what's there

This church is very, very, very successful in the eyes of man. But are they successful in the eye of God? They had over 20,000 Christ seekers come to hear their version of the gospel this past Easter. Is this a good example of how motive does not justify ones actions? Here is a story from the Detroit News.Church plans to create 40 more houses of worship :-o Kensington Vision looks to reach 250,000 :cry: By Amanda M. Wolfe / Special to The Detroit NewsTROY -- Officials at Kensington Community Church believe in sharing. The 6,000-member nondenominational Christian church, whose one-hour services include popular music, dance and drama performances, video presentations and a religious message, want to establish at least 40 similar churches across the globe that reach 250,000 people by the year 2020. The 20/20 Vision initiative strives to "look beyond the success of Kensington and try to make what's found here available to people everywhere," said Nick Boring, director of the effort. "We are the vessels to let the world know who Jesus is," said Debbie Cavender, who has been a member of the church since 1991. "You can't do that on just our church campus on John R and Square Lake Road." More than 12 churches have already been founded, Boring said, including seven in Michigan. Part of each new church's mission is to found newer ones, he said. The Vision initiative began six years ago when Kensington Senior Pastor Steve Andrews decided to act on the church's mission statement, which says, in part, "To turn people who think God is irrelevant into fully devoted, equipped and mobilized followers of Christ through the ministry of local churches." Fifteen percent of Kensington's $4.8 million budget is devoted to the expansion, Boring said. Church officials devised two ways to develop churches. One was to send members out to start other, similar churches. Genesis the Church of Royal Oak, which was established by Pastor Steve Norman about three years ago and aimed at people under 30, was the first of these internal church plants. The other way was to finance and give guidance to churches as they establish themselves. Kensington and B. Jaya Sankar created an alliance with Sankar's Christ Evangelical Mission church in India in December 2000, and 43 other affiliated religious institutions are the result of his work in the region. His church also founded a school, a medical clinic and two children's homes. Eric Winter, director of finance at Kensington, will leave in August with a group of 30 Kensington adults and 20 children to help found a new church in Salt Lake City, Utah. "We're selling our homes and quitting our jobs," said Winter, a six-year Kensington member who is moving with his wife, Paula, and two young children. "We are not planning on coming back." The program is working, Cavender and other Kensington church members said. "I think we've accomplished more than I thought we could" with the 20/20 program, Cavender said. "Our growth has been a blessing." Winter agreed. "I think it is going well," said Winter, who gave up his Kentucky bookkeeping and accounting business to work for the church six years ago. Such devotion is not unusual, Boring said. "Our church is aimed at those people who walked away from church and said they don't want to have anything to do with God," Boring said. Kensington was started in September 1990 by a core group of about 30 people whose first services were held in the cafeteria of Bloomfield Hills' East Hills Middle School on Kensington Street, said Karl Nilsson, communications director of the church. It is funded entirely by donations, Nilsson said. After moving many times, the church now occupies a 40-acre campus at John R and Square Lake Road that includes an arts school and broadcast center. Services are held three times Saturday and twice on Sunday. Once a month, the church also invites musicians of any faith to perform and lets other artists display their work. Amanda M. Wolfe is a Metro Detroit free-lance writer. :-o :cry: :-o :cry:

Christisking :-o :cry: :-o :cry: Not being at all immersed in the failings of this 'movement' what about this above article caused you to cry?

ZekeO,The message this church is preaching and reaching people with is straight from the pits of hell, wrapped up and presented in a Jesus package. When a false gospel is preached to hundreds of thousands of people, it is terribly sad to me.As Bomar said - “Jesus would not have been invited to teach there”

Fire Without Brimstone: New 1-part, four hour workshop (replaces Contagious Christianity)“You shouldn’t stand on a street corner and use a bullhorn to share your faith! And you don’t need to go door-to-door in your neighborhood either. Part of our Base Camp series, learn why evangelism isn’t what you think it is through interactive teaching, table discussion, and movie clips.”I think I read it too fast when I saw this on that site.. :oops: Like what Dez said.. 'Should not' is not biblical at all in this case.Thats like saying that streetpreaching is wrong. Which is not.And tnx for pointing to the text dohzman!

Mark 6:[11] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.[12] And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

From what I am seeing on an increasing measure in the churches, like this one is this.I'll give you an example from scripture than an observation. They quote a scripture like John 8:32 you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. They will build a entire message on being free, and who wants to be free etc....but they neglect to properly quote the entire scripture in context and what the whole dialogue between Jesus and those Jews who heard that was. oh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. So what we have is a sermon that doesn't make any requirements or exact any committments on the hearers. Jesus' teachings call us to discipleship. To a serious committment to God and a holy lifestyle, seperation from the world and testifying on His behalf what great things God has done in our lives (obedience).I'm seeing an increasing number of individuals who , Like Lot's daughters husbands have no real relationship with Jesus Christ, but thier "in the family " never the less. They never left Sodom :-( . I see alot of what I call half-baked christians, that's the result of the message these soft user friendly churches produce.

I think they've changed their statement, now it say's: “You don't have to stand on a street corner and use a bullhorn to share your faith! And you don’t need to go door-to-door in your neighborhood either. Part of our Base Camp series, learn why evangelism isn’t what you think it is through interactive teaching, table discussion, and movie clips.”

That's funny that they would change it. Hummmm :-(

Maybe someone who read this thread contacted them in regards to the wording they used? I admit it sounds much more palatable with “don’t have to” instead of “shouldn't". But, I have been to this church numerous times and am familiar with the messages and gospel they preach. So I am not too hopeful that they are teaching a Biblical way of evangelism. Instead, it is most likely a “life style” “non-offending” (i.e. minus sin, the cross, blood, judgment, hell - or any other offensive parts of the gospel message - not that we go out looking to offend people, but most here know exactly what I am talking about) “humanistic” form of evangelism that really has no Biblical basis. The Joel Osteen “christianity light” sort of “easy-believe” stuff. But I will be there for the class so I will let everyone know what is taught and post a report after the class. Unless, of course, they ban me from the class. LOL :-P I understand that a lot of these churches have a form of Godliness and at first glance appear to be just fine. It is this very subtle and sometime slippery type of humanism and easy-believism that leaven the whole loaf. It’s not that you would stand up during their service and say “that’s a lie” or “that’s heresy”. Some of what they say is pretty bad but mostly it is what they don’t say or leave out as to not offend. Listen to there Easter message from 2005 and most will see exactly what I am talking about. http://kensingtonchurch.org/messages/stream.php?message=2005-03-27_daveIf you listen to this - you might want to go wash your ears out wish a couple of Leonard Ravenhill or Art Katz sermons. ;-) Here is the exact wording from the salvation message written in the interactive bulletin- (I was there and I still have mine - I went to the Saturday night performance)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~“Jesus says:Come to me. That is my invitation. Come to me and I will give you rest. I didn’t create you to do life by yourself. Let me carry your dreams, your weakness, and your failures. If you’ve tried everything, but life has left you in need of something else... Come to me, and I will give you life...life to the full!Love, jesus (that’s right Jesus is spelled with a lower case “j” on the bulletin - it is written in an artsy, Old English type font, so I’m sure it was unintentional, but nonetheless )R.S.V.P.jesus, here i am. i, ___________________________, give you my life” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Then after signing with the provided pen you were instructed to tears off the perforated R.S.V.P. portion at the bottom of the page and walk up on the left side of the stage (set up like a fishing dock, with wading pools under the dock ) then throw the R.S.V.P. portion off the dock and into the wading pools and lastly exit on the right side of the stage. You were instructed that you were saved and that all of your sins were forgiven both past and future and forever. I know some may say I am being overly picky and fussy. But I think that I am not alone in thinking that this is not the the salvation message of the New Testament or the Gospel, a watered, easy to swallow form of a gospel,o a false gospel, yes, but it is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I think that Ravenhill, Reidhead, Katz, Poonen, Wilkerson, Tozer, Comfort and most of the people on this site and in this form would agree with that assessment. Am I wrong? Does anyone think , yep that’s it, that’s the Gospel and calling of Jesus Christ, that’s what we should be telling and instructing people?

Watered down version of the gospels lead to watered down versions of believers.. The worst thing is that you don't realize it when you are watered down and else you get really insecure when someone tells you that you are wrong.I don't think your picky, I would not use such a message either to attract people to make a choice and have then expect to end up in heaven anyhow. There is no easy ride, there is the cross.Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it.Jesus is not lieing. How then can we soften up the messages to leave out the offencive parts? That only leads to unchanged people. Since how can the Holy Spirit convict people when not the whole Truth is preached?I've experienced fakeness in my own life.. You don't become a follower of Christ to get into religion. Thats not what Jesus asks, thats not what will save you...

I believe you are correct Warrior. Not only this church, but the many more who are like them and their clone churches, are producing false converts by preaching a false gospel. They are just making people comfortable as they travel the wide path of destruction, instead of turning then to follow the narrow path to heaven. The sad thing is that they do have a form of Godliness and think they are on the right path. That is why it makes my so sad when I read about the hundred of thousands of poor souls who are being deceived by such organization. I think this probably what Paul meant when he said - “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.” 2 Cor. 13-15So is what is our responsibility, in the face of such falseness sold and packaged as Truth? What was the Apostle Paul's example of how to deal with false gospels and false teachers? What were Paul's instruction to Timothy and Titus in such matters? What were Paul's instructions to the Churches on such matters of false gospels and false teachers? What about instruction in the rest of the New Testament? How did Jesus deal with falseness in the church? Do George Fox’s methods seem appropriate?

Pat, perhaps it might be informative for you to study the Reformation, particularly the Anabaptist movement and how they related to Zwingli, et al. There was Conrad Grebel, Felix Manz, George Blaurock among others. Study these saints of old. They were not passive in face of error, and that is why they lost their lives, too. I am not too optimistic, but I think Bible-believing Christians are in for some severe persecution in the not too distant future in our country! Wish I could think otherwise!!!May God grant you Holy Spirit inspired boldness to speak His Truth and not your own (which can be flawed)!ginnyrose

ginnyrose , Unfortunitly you are right on in your observation. I ministered to a church where the Lord moved with great conviction on the entire church and the altars were filled, I had an elder of the church follow me around crying "this is a man of God hear him" , that bugged me! Never the less one year later when I went to book that church I was told that the leadership was afraid to have me come back because of current "issues" they were going through. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise thoughs issues probably had the word sin in the middle. The churches have become big buisness and they can't afford to have the boat rocked, with with conviction of sins.

The modern church is about bodies, bucks, and bricks rather than to honestly confront sinners about their state before God. If there's no conviction of sin, there is no Holy Spirit power.People are afraid of a straight message because some may be offended and leave. If a church has issues, that's a tell-tale sign.I'm reminded of a passage in Ezekiel 34:9-11 which says: "9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them."I'm praying that as God's judgements begin to fall there will be a restoration of Christianity in the west.

Hi SI brothers and sisters,As I stated befor I would be back to give a report. I went to the “Fire Without Brimstone” four and half hour evangelism training seminar this morning. I will be sharing some information as to what was being taught in the seminar. I feel it may be beneficial for us to know what people are being told and taught before hand, for we are sure to run up against some of this stuff on the streets. Also, watch for this coming to a church near you. It is good to go into and visit the websites of churches in your area.(especially mega / seeker sensitive / or word of faith churches) You may find great opportunities to witness to people who are actually seeking God and falling under deception.First off we watched a video by Rob Bell from Mars Hill Church (one of the fastest growing churches in the country) entitled “Bullhorn Guy” about street preachers and tract distributors. It was like watching Satan himself!!! The street preacher was portrayed as some psychotic mean unloving ax murder obsessed with hell. I couldn’t find the whole video online (you have to buy it) but here is a short clip. ( the guy walking down the hall way is Bullhorn Guy with a box of tracts ) please watch this video clip. I wish so bad I could find the whole video for everyone to see. You would fall out of your seat -it was truly unbelievable.Bullhorn GuyHere is a picture of Bullhorn Guy from the videoHere is a quote from the first page of the work book/instruction manual.Quote:“Session 1 : Evangelism in the 21st. CenturyThis session will help you understand your role in fulfilling the Great Commission, clearing up some common misconceptions along the way. Here’s a snapshot of what we’ll be discussing in the first session:- Using a bullhorn isn’t the best way to share your faith- You don’t need to talk about Jesus to evangelize- It’s important to analyze the soil before planting any seeds”Most who know me from this forum know that I am not one to mince words or sit silent. But, I try to never do anything outside the will of God and I felt God was telling me to sit quite and listen. Only be the grace of God and peace that passes understanding was I able to do so. (my wife thought I had gone insane) I made it all the way to the end without uttering one word (even during Q&A time) At the end the Lord spoke and said now is the time. I was able to give powerful yet calm argument to many of the issues talked about in the seminar, with many scriptural references. Of course I was shut down after about 10-15 min with “I think we will just end here”, but I was able to speak with many people afterwards personally, pass out copies of “True and False Conversions” by Ray Comfort, and had many people thank me for bring up the issues I had. They said they were glad I had spoken up. PRAISE GOD! To my surprise the people were very open to what I was saying .I’ll post some later. You may be VERY surprised at what is being taught.

How about let's drop all the programs and just start walking in the Spirit? If we're truly walking in the Spirit, will He (the Holy Spirit) deceive us?

"You don't need to talk about Jesus to Evangelize"Excuse me but this must have been written by Satan. After all the last name on Satan wants mentioned to anyone is Jesus. What name or person are we supposed to talk about? My friend I feel for you but you did the right thing. The best way to deal with this is exactly what you did -- hear them out (I call it giving them enough rope to hang themselves) and then ask questions they have a hard time answering. This is the gospel presentation form according to Satan because if you follow what they are saying it will cause you to do nothing but wait for someone to ask you about your faith. Let's just hope someone asks about Christ. Talk about justificaition of timid Christianity. Man I wonder what the Apostle Paul would think of this. If they follow his advice Mars Hill would have never happened. Irony there, huh? Blessings.

Here is some more quotes from what was taught- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~“Sharing the AdventureSection 2: Separating Fact From FictionFour Myths Of EvangelismMyth 1-I need to talk about sin and salvation to evangelize.Myth 2-Evangelism isn’t my spiritual gift so I am off the hookMyth 3 - The primary reason I should evangelize is to keep people out of hellMyth 4 - I am responsible for my friend’s salvation” page 7 Fire without Brimstone: Evangelism in the 21st. century. Take special note of Myth 1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~“Sharing The AdventureSession 2: Sowing - You can’t Harvest What Isn't PlantedSession FocusEvangelism techniques like knocking on a strangers door or stopping someone in the airport are no longer effective. Instead evangelism works best through relationships...And as you are building the relationship, you can sow seeds of the gospel that will eventually lead to harvest. He is a snapshot of what we’ll be discussing in this session:- Letting people walk away (just like Jesus did)- Sharing your faith without sharing the gospel- Spending more time in your neighborhood than at church” page 7 Fire without Brimstone: Evangelism in the 21st. century. Seed sowing was presented as dropping little hints or making a brief mention about something spiritual or inviting some to church. The seed wasn’t presented as the gospel, but rather a part of the gospel that wasn’t offensive or hard to hear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~“Use Trigger words and sentences (to test the soil)Trigger phrases pull a superficial conversation into a personal direction, but without force, so the other person is not made to feel uncomfortable. A trigger phrase tells a person you are open to revealing a bit of your life if he is curious. It leaves a question hanging between you. If he asks it, you know he cares. If he doesn’t care enough about you to ask the question, what makes you think he will be open to you presenting the Gospel? - by Michael Simpson - Permission Evangelism” page 16 Fire without Brimstone: Evangelism in the 21st. century~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: Well, the only myth I would agree with is number 2 --sounds like I would fail the class.Brother if I would go to this thing I might get kicked out. Ordained Assemblies of God minister and all thoguh I am. I can't think of a more Spiritless form of Evangelism. Not only are we going to preach a different gospel, but we are going to do it with a chicken heart.I think Ray Comfort talks about letting people walk way too but only after they have been confronted by the fact they are sinners in need of God. This is because he does not believe that number 4 is a myth -- the watchman that does not sound the trumpet is definitely guilty of the blood of those killed. I agree that we need to spend time in our neighborhoods -- preaching the gospel. Tell me -- what do they do to the command -- GO and PREACH the gospel. Must be someoen else that said it besides Jesus :roll:Blessings Brother -- I don't know how you took it.

Quote:"Brother if I would go to this thing I might get kicked out."That is what I was expecting to happen. I never thought for one second that I was going to make it to the end, even with the little information I had before I went.Quote:"I don't know how you took it."Only by the grace of God and obedience to the direct command I felt God was speaking to my heart. As I stated before it all worked for the good as I was able to make powerful, calm and influencing argument in the end. Many people seemed relieved that there was someone there to stand up and question what they were teaching. PRAISE GOD!

Praise God Patrick,I believe the season is upon us to expose the darkness. It's time...How many of these "seekers" were actually seeking the real Jesus but ended up with the cotton candy Jesus instead? My heart goes to those who are really seeking Jesus but can't find him in this post-modern age. I know that Jesus is drawing them out of this foolishness.

Quote:“I believe the season is upon us to expose the darkness. It's time...”I agree 110%. I feel as though I am the only one going into churches to witness to and minister to the lost and deceived. I have said before and still it is my opinion and warning that there will be many who have been shown the truth but refused to share it those who are deceived by the church who will stand on judgment day with bloody hands. The church is one the of the most neglected harvest fields in the world.Quote:“How many of these "seekers" were actually seeking the real Jesus but ended up with the cotton candy Jesus instead?”Many, many, many, and many are very open to hear about the real Jesus. You would be surprised how many wonder and seek and have questions about what they are being taught, but all they find is smooth sugary talk and deception. Many are refreshed to hear the truth - and many hate the truth and cling with both fists to the cotton candy nonsense they love as it melts away in their hands and gnash their teeth at you.Quote:“My heart goes to those who are really seeking Jesus but can't find him in this post-modern age.”Then please brother go into these churches and preach the truth. Pass out tracts, pass out CD’s, talk with people in the lobby, join a small group, call out their pastor and stand up for the truth of Jesus Christ.Here is a great article that speaks about the subject.TODAY'S "UNSAVED" CHURCH It is an interesting fact that Charles Finney spent his entire ministry preaching to professing Christians. And yet he was called the greatest 'evangelist'! What he was doing was evangelizing the church people - because he found that most of them were not living in a state of true salvation at all. The church was 'unsaved'! Thus his first calling was to the believers of his day - to see them converted. -Just like Jesus and the apostles were called first to the Jews - the 'believers' of their time. Finney found himself preaching piercing salvation messages his whole life in church buildings, Bible Colleges and so-on. The "Christians" must be saved. Actually, you see this pattern in most Revivals down the centuries. In many cases, what Revival was, was the church coming into true SALVATION for the first time. They THOUGHT they were saved before, but they had been under a delusion. When the 'Revivalist' arrived and preached to them, suddenly they saw that they were undone and in a lost state, and multitudes were converted. Revival almost always begins with the church. I believe it is no different today, especially in America where church attendance is very high (-around 40 percent) - the highest percentage in the world. Everyone agrees that there is a lot of 'nominal' Christianity and 'social' Christianity going on - as well as a huge number of people who attend churches where they are told they are 'saved' when clearly they are not. It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that most of these churches are like "holding pens" for the damned - telling people that they are 'OK', when in reality they are headed for destruction. Personally, I find this very hard to take. What will God do to the preachers who are lulling the flock to sleep in this way? And when will men be found who will dare to tell the "Christians" that many are not 'saved' at all - but still in their sins? -Such is the role of the true prophets of God. Such is the role of the coming "John the Baptists". Of course, Finney was hated and despised by church men for saying such things. How DARE he preach in such a way that assumed that many 'fine church members' were unsaved? How offensive and ill- mannered! But Finney had such a passion and a burden to REACH THE 'CHRISTIANS' with the gospel. -And this was exactly what God had called him to do. Today we see exactly the same thing in the West as Finney saw in his day. We see a church that is very largely UNSAVED. A truly "saved" church (in the New Testament sense) behaves and looks and sounds utterly different to what we have today. Even in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles we often find many "previously-saved-but-no-longer-walking-in-it" believers. Friends, this is not a state of 'salvation'. The Bible is very clear that only those who CONTINUE in New Testament Christianity and who "overcome" will be saved. These people are lost. You are either walking as a 'new creature' in love with Christ or you are not. If you are not walking in it then do not assume you are "saved" - no matter what some preacher tells you. It is all or nothing with God. The Bible tells us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling". I would be very surprised if more than a quarter of the West's so-called "Spirit-filled" believers are actually walking with a clean heart before God. What on earth do they think will happen to them on Judgement Day? Added to this, we have millions upon millions of 'mainline' believers who literally NEVER get the opportunity to find out about "FULL" salvation. -The Holy Spirit is never made real to them, and many have never been fully BAPTIZED in water, either. Now, we have already discussed elsewhere how people became Christians in the Bible. We know that there were THREE THINGS that always needed to happen when someone wanted to become a Christian in the New Testament: (1) Repentance (2) Water Baptism (3) Being filled with the Holy Spirit. -Every time, these were the three things that happened STRAIGHT AWAY. (-See Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:12-20, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6, Acts 22:16, Heb 6:1-2, Mk 16:16-18, etc.) As I have said before, the doctrine of "Asking Jesus into your heart" does not exist in the Bible, and personally I would come very close to calling it a lie from the pit of hell, because it falsely assures people that they are "saved" just because they have 'prayed a little prayer'. It is very dishonest and totally unscriptural. So we know that a basic "New Testament Christian" is someone who has: (1) Repented (2) Been Baptized (immersed) in water, and (3) Been filled with the Holy Spirit So how on earth do we reach all these vast millions who are being duped with this half-Christianity of "Asking Jesus into your heart" - but never hear the full gospel? What on earth can be done to get this message through to them? This is a burden that is very much on my heart. And I am convinced that only the coming "John-the-Baptist" ministries will have the anointing to break through the walls of 'Religion' to reach these people with the truth. We are talking about millions upon millions of precious souls here. And they are people who DO BELIEVE in God. But they have been lied-to, and the real truth has been denied them. I am convinced that the coming harvest will BEGIN IN THE CHURCH. It will begin with converting the "CHRISTIANS". -This has always been God's order. "First in Jerusalem, then in Judea...." I am deeply burdened for the church in the West. Let the new "Charles Finney's" arise. Let the trumpet sound go forth. The message of PIERCING REPENTANCE must be heard in the land once again. And the idol of "Mammon" must surely be one of it's key targets. I am convinced that such prophets must arise for Revival to come to the West in these days. "For the word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword." -May this mighty sword be brought to bear on the walls of Religion and false 'assurance' in these days. by: Andrew Strom

Thanks Brother Patrick,I'm simply doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I have mailed out a significant number of tapes which are quite convicting, as well as some other things.The Holy Spirit is still dealing with me on this attitude of heart which must be changed. If I judge someone in my heart, it's very difficult to pray for them. That's not to say that there's a time and place for confrontation.I've had to confront people this year in some very awkward settings (e.g. at a funeral involving my cousin's suicide, at another funeral of my grandfather, several homeless people in different cities I've been in during the last few months, and to a street preacher).When we truly walk in the Spirit, there is a direct confrontation with sin and the Lord is still dealing with me because I'm still too big and God is too small.Thank God he is reducing me but until the work is finished, I would be presumptuous if I went out and did something in the flesh.Thanks for the encouragement...

What do you call walking in the Spirit?

It's simply obeying what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I don't have some deep theological understanding of this but it's very clear to me when I walk in the spirit versus walking in the flesh.So for example, when my cousin killed himself I spent a considerable amount of time praying and the Lord told me to go the funeral and I went. He said to speak to this one and that one and I did and the Holy Spirit gave me words to say. It's certainly not something I wanted to do in the flesh.The Holy Spirit has also told me to help my wife with the dishes and help cleaning up the house and I denied it for a time and the conviction was so heavy I said okay Lord I'll do it.Walking in the spirit simply means being obedient to what the Holy Spirit says to do. I like a passage from Isaiah 30 and here's one verse (verse 21) I find to be true: "Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."I find the Holy Spirit to be quite specific in His demands and that I as I submit to Him, I hear His voice more clearly.Here's the definition of the Greek word walk in Galatians 5 from the Thayer lexicon:1) to proceed in a row as the march of a soldier, go in ordera) metaph. to go on prosperously, to turn out well2) to walka) to direct one's life, to liveWhen I submit to what the Holy Spirit asks, I find great joy welling up in my heart. It's the exact opposite of my natural disposition.I finding it to be the joy of my heart to obey Him but sometimes it's rather difficult because the Holy Spirit will expose hidden things in my heart.What does it mean to you?

Habakkuk3,I’m not trying to come down on you brother and I understand that we must be obedient to the Spirit and not act according to our flesh. My flesh wanted to jump up and shout “LIAR! FOOL! HYPOCRITE! FALSE TEACHER!” with the fire and passion of John the Baptist, but the Spirit was telling me “No“. So I obeyed.I know that many see what is happening in the church and see many “seekers” being sold a false Jesus and a false gospel. I know first and foremost that we must pray about what we see going on, but in our prayers I feel we should include seeking God as to what he wants us to do about it. If God clearly tells you He wants you to do nothing then you should obey what the Lord speakers to you. But I am convinced that the Lord is waiting for and wanting His people to seek how they may be used by Him in the face of these great deceptions and false gospels being preached. The Lord may use people in different ways, like I said, join a small group, talk with people in the lobby, pass out tracts, pass out CD’s, and He may even call some to speak in the manner of a George Fox. The church today is one of the most neglected harvest fields in world and I believe the Lord is seeking harvest workers.Here is the last quote from the class I will post and it is probably the worst of all.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~“For many unbelievers, evolution is an obstacle to faith. They assume that evolution disproves creation, thus demonstrating that the Bible is in error. But evolution doesn’t have to be an obstacle to Christianity. One can believe in evolution and still receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” It doesn’t say, “If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and also believe in seven-day creation, you will be saved.” Dan Story - Engaging The Closed MindedPage 21 - Fire Without Brimstone - Evangelism In The 21st. Century~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I supose I understand being lead of the Holy Spirit in two completely different ways. The one is more of an inward type witness or leading. It will work directly with the other. The other is simply obeying the written Word of God. Taking the principles and precepts found in it and applying them to life on a daily basis. I take a great deal of comfort knowing that simple obedience to the written Word can be as much walking in the Spirit as learning to discern the inter voice of God. In my case, it's safer too. I see so much in the church that makes me mad as I talk to christians who justify why they were lead contrary to the Word of God, they almost always place the blame on the Holy Spirit's leading and it's been very difficult in the past to get these individuals to even consider the Bible and doing it as even being a spiritual act.I see brothers who have had a great deal of buisness success pass by other brothers and sisters who were known to be almost without food, and then justify thier actions as they just wasn't lead to help. :-( I'm seeing far too many abuses being done by thoughs who claim to be lead of the Holy Spirit, my thoughts are that most use that as an excuse to neglect the Word of God written and delivered to us and the voice they hear is the self voice. Now so no body misunderstands me, I make the above statements on a broad stroke generalization and don't mean here to imply anyone individual here on this website directly or indirectly :-)

Now I understand your question Dohzman. I see so much in the church that makes me mad as I talk to christians who justify why they were lead contrary to the Word of God, they almost always place the blame on the Holy Spirit's leading and it's been very difficult in the past to get these individuals to even consider the Bible and doing it as even being a spiritual act. This is grevious and I would question whether or not these folks are believers? How can I follow Jesus and then turn around and blame Him for any sin. Sin is always a choice that we make. I can't see that anyone in the New Testament doing this. In Isaiah 1 we're exhorted to "Come now, let us reason together" says the Lord and every time I've done that it's ended up with me repenting.I'm not judging these folks but they sorely need our prayers. God help us if we claim the Holy Spirit told us to sin. That's even more wicked than what Adam and Eve did which was to say "the devil made me do it."I've only been truly following Jesus for a few years and I'm finding that the Holy Spirit is very specific about many things. Don't defend yourself when someone attacks, don't even that type of food and once I obey, then there is such a peace in my heart. It's a bit hard to explain but His voice is always consistent with the Bible and generally speaking I will have to deny myself in some specific way. Not always but this happens more frequently than anything else.Living in the Washington DC area I had become an aggressive driver of sorts and the Lord said "No" to my aggressive ways. So when someone cuts me off which happens frequently in a major metropolitan area and anger rises in my heart, then the Holy Spirit tells me to repent and then to pray for them. The anger has not arisen in quite some time but there are many other things He is still working on.This is not an attack on those mentioned in your post but rather a call to prayer for those who are deluded. Would the Holy Spirit ever lead me (or anyone else) into or endorse their sin?

Easy believism is the greatest sin modern man has accepted, that is along side come and accept Jesus to go to heaven, I had always thought the sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was a holy life. I like what Finney states in Sanctification.

This makes me wonder, people in European and VS churches are mostly not persecuted or harassed in any (serious) way.Not saying that this should happen, but it opens the way for how you define it 'easy believing'.If easy believing leads to unholy and unchanged lives that would be bad.How much people might fall away when persecution gets in! But perhaps alot Christians would wake up too. Just like the story where Solomon decides to cut the baby in half just to see who the real mother was. The woman who lied didn't care much about it, but the other womans motherly feelings came up... What if God would allow severe persecution to....Well if the church keeps embracing the world in a fast rate satan doesn't even need angry mobs of people harassing Christians as alot people will be entering the wide road anyhow.Hopefully the HS will give us and myself boldness to witness our faith if we will ever live to see persecution. And boldness and courage to uncover darkness.It's easy to judge the people who practise 'easy-believism' but many of them probably have no clue about whats wrong with it.And I can't say that my life is in such a state that I can point out all the errors to people and don't be judged myself. Doesn't the remaining darkness still present in my heart has to be replaced with the Light of Gods glory first before I can point out other peoples darkness? Not that I need to be perfect to uncover darkness, but ending up being a hypocrite is not the way to go. I need to continue to pray that the Lord has His way in me more often and often so He can use me powerfully to uncover darkness.I'm not someone like Paul (yet) who could say the following:Phil 3:17 "Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern" (NKJV)[edit]Oh and welcome too on SI! Have a blessed stay here :-)

Easy believism is simply where I can have my own life and Jesus too. There's no cross to carry, no denial of self.Doesn't the remaining darkness still present in my heart has to be replaced with the Light of Gods glory first before I can point out other peoples darkness? It's a process, I'm not quite through the process yet because I still see parts of my life separate from the life of Christ. I trust God that he'll finish the work. I'm reminded of what Jesus told Peter. "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."What will life be like when persecution comes? I don't know but I pray that we get ourselves ready.

Let me carry your dreams, your weakness, and your failures.I think these words sum up the shortage in the gospel presented here. This gospel tells us to let Christ come and bear you up and support you in your dreams... That is your worldly dreams for yourself in this world.Absent is the message of the Cross. I like Tozer's words that whan a man takes up his cross, he is going to die. He does not turn and say to his loved ones, "I will see you later". A man on a cross has no more plans for himself. No, the cross is an instrument of death to our life in this world and ushers us into a new Realm of the resurrection Life of Christ which is lived, "unto God".Our dreams for ourself in this world are terminated by this Cross. Christ does not come to help us live our dreams, but rather terminates our dreams and brings into us His Vision (as Paul said, I was not disobedient to the Heavenly Vision) which is in resurrection and it is unto God and for the building up of the body of Christ to be His expression on the Earth. Christ did not come to help us express ourseves and to find our self realization, He came to bring us into union with Him, to apply His Cross to our natural life, that we might deny ourselves, take up our cross, express Him, and do the Will of God.Graftedbranch

Wow, I live pretty close to that church. Was actually thinking of visiting there, pretty soul wrenching to read there website :(