Ahhh!! Well-informed 'agnostics'!!

I had a lady today who doesnt go to church who said: "I was brought up in a bretheren church as a little girl, lovely people but they were so legalistic it scared me to bits. I saw so many inconsistencies too, like one guy who gets a pension, even though he owns $6mil in property. Anyway, what I don't understand is how God can say one thing and do a different one. He says to not worry about food or about tomorrow, yet He lets children die of starvation and be assulted and infected with AIDS, isnt that not keeping his promise?"She was on a roll, I stopped her a few times about some other things and explained more, but she was well churched, knew passages off by heart (hated that they made her learn them) and was really a tough one. I let her keep raving because I didnt know what to say! In paticular, I'm a little stumped on the last question... any clues? :-)

Ravenhill says that "the world isn't waiting for a new definition of Christianity, it's waiting for a new demonstration of Christianity." It's a hard one. Sounds like this lady has built up some heavy-duty walls against God. Moreso, it sounds like she has some hard-core scars. Does she have some background that makes her hate the Church, or is it just that she didn't understand?The hearts of men are wicked. And sometimes, no matter how obvious the truth is, we can't force a person to come to know Christ. Ray Comfort has a debate against an athiest about weather or not there is a God. Comfort was amazing- he brought out obvious proofs in things like a banana and a coke can. He tugged at your conscience. Yet still, this athiest was ruthless. He didn't give proofs on why Comfort was wrong, he tore a Comfort's methods.One of the most powerfull witnesses we have, especially with those who know us, is our character. Do they see that we know that what we preach is real, or do they see a "Sunday Christian"? And don't forget prayer.Grace and Peace...

Do you recognize the Holy Spirit in your life? Does It speak to you? How do you know right from wrong? etc. These more personal questions bring the immediacy and availability of the Holy Spirit to the fore. Does God speak to us? Absolutely. Isaiah 30 has this passage: 19 O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. 20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." 22 Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, "Away with you!" The Holy Spirit quickens the heart and says don't do this, do this, don't do that. For example, if I'm upset with my wife, he will say, don't be angry with her and I'll have to go to the prayer closet or find somewhere to pray.How do I know it's God for example when He says don't eat that? I know because once I step into what He has asked me to do, joy rises up in my heart. It's incredible but there no mistaking it for anything else.If it's my flesh or an evil spirit, I won't have the joy. It's rather difficult to articulate but that's the best I could do in a short message...

The only answer I have to these questions is to say that God does give poor people money and food, but He gives it to us to give to them and we keep it instead of passing it on. Here's an analogy (SP!) As a father, I often walk through a town or shop with my children, when they see a collection pot or busker, they want to give some money so I give them some and they give it or put it in the pot. The money is not theirs it's for the charity, if I gave it to them and they ran off and bought sweets with it then I wouldn't be happy. God gives us (in the West) plenty of money so we can help others, but we keep it for ourselves. God does help the needy but He uses us to do it and when they don't get it it is cos we don't give enough. Ravenhil says we will be accountable for every penny we've earned since becoming His, it's an awsome responsibility!

May I play the devil's advocate a little, and maybe say what someone on the street would say?"Well I know about suffering, being brought up in church and all. I know 1 Peter 3:12, "For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”and 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."and Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—"So it is clear according to Christian doctrine, WHY bad things happen in the world. But as children starve, walk across land mines, are abused and infected with AIDS, how can we possible see Jesus' words as truth when He says in Matt 6:25-26 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?"It sounds like an outright contradiction. They starve to death and ar told not to worry?"Note: I know this is a very well versed sounding person, but the one I came across knew whole passages! I don't want to get along relying on someone's ignorance, or distract them. Thats pushy-salesperson style, and not Christian. I always want to give an answer (1 Peter 3:15) :-)

It would be important to note that Jesus is talking to people who would follow Him. This promise is not for those who refuse to follow Him. If my unsaved mom quit her job based on that promise, she would be in a world of trouble. Jesus is almost making a contrast between those who follow Him and those who are in the world (such as those starving children). What is the number one thing the world thinks about (in general)? Survival... getting through today, making it to tomorrow. Here in america it is having enough money to pay the bills, in other countries it is having enough food to avoid starvation. What Jesus said is extremely radical, because to not worry about survival is absolutely crazy in the eyes of the World. How many times have you determined to trust God, and had the counsel of a dozen unsaved (or even, unfortunately, sometimes Christian) friends and family tell you that you are insane? You hear all of the cliche's "God takes care of those who take care of themselves", "We all pray", "Everyone wants to believe that, but how often does it actually work like that?"... well... i have seen it work like that a thousand and one times. But they have never seen it. Why? Because they are not children of God. God has offered this promise to those who would drop lose their lives (including losing all of their daily concerns) and follow Him. He has said that if you drop all of your worries and cares, and follow me, and "Seek ye first the kingdom of God"... then... "All of these things shall be added unto you". Essentially, if you jump off the edge of this cliff in order to come to me, I will keep you from falling. Or, "if you step out of the boat to come after me, I will keep you from sinking."These children may be starving, but they may be spiritually rich. It is sad to think about these children, but it is even more sad to think about the billions who are starving spiritually because they refuse to drop their cares and seek God. What this lady doesnt realize is that whether you were rich and died in luxury, or whether you starved to death on a street in Calcutta, it isnt going to be a very big deal in the end. She is starving spiritually, and we should feel for her just as much as those starving children. She rejects God based on material things, because she cant have an eternal mindset. I think in many of these situations people have disguised their own rejection of God in a false "compassion".

Sir, sounds to me like she is fighting God or conviction and using this question as an excuse to not surrender. Methinks there is a deeper issue involved then why there are poor people. This female reminded me of a quote by Ravi Zacharias: "Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart we are not really battling intellectual ideas as much as fighting for the right of our sexual proclivities (def.: an inherent inclination, esp. toward something objectionable) and our passionate indulgences? ~Ravi Zacharias, Lessons from the Battle of Ideas, 11-21Hope this may help...ginnyrose

Sir, sounds to me like she is fighting God or conviction and using this question as an excuse to not surrender. Methinks there is a deeper issue involved then why there are poor people. Ginnyrose may be on to something here I believe. Many people who are themselves reluctant to help the poor, are still willing to use the poor as rhetorical weapons to produce guilt and shame in others. MC

I'm speaking personally here. There's alot I can't explain about God or His actions , therefore I don't. I usually just let them know I don't have the answer and then ask them something that makes them focus back on the condition of thier own soul.The very fact that that lady wanted to place blame or accusation shows that she had a God conscienciousness. Her next line of defense would be to point to the church or some backslidden christian or some other excuse. Same thing , I refuse to answer for the actions of another, again I usually say "I don't know" and again get them to focus on the condition of thier own soul.If you understand the true function of "conscience" then it will change the entire way you approach one on one evangelism. Always bring the focus back to the individual, no matter what. The Holy Spirit is wonderful at bringing about conviction. He has the full history of the individuals life to draw upon.Rember , we'er witnesses, not professors bringing about some great doctrine :-( We share what Jesus has done for us and others we know. There's something about being real that breaks down walls people put up.

I think in many of these situations people have disguised their own rejection of God in a false "compassion".Sir, sounds to me like she is fighting God or conviction and using this question as an excuse to not surrender.Sometimes these objections are from people honestly seeking truth but more often they are just disguises and excuses. It reminds me of the Jews who always came to Jesus with objections, just like this lady you speak of, they were thinking they had a head problem with Jesus, in their case they thought He was breaking the law. But Jesus would always answer them with words that hit their consciences hard. His words would strip away every disguise and bury every excuse. He would show them that what they really had was a heart problem. In Christ,Ron

Do you recognize the Holy Spirit in your life? Does It speak to you? How do you know right from wrong? etc. These more personal questions bring the immediacy and availability of the Holy Spirit to the fore. I know you believe in a Universal Creator God and evolution, but Darwinian evolution is based on random mutation and such a God must have 'left things to get on with it'. Would such a God still deserve to me called a creator? If God did influence it in 'any' way then it is not Darwinian evolution. Pay your money, and take your choice!I notice that you frequently refer to the Holy Spirit as 'It'. I presume this because you see the Holy Spirit and the 'inner light' as synonimous terms which, of course, they are not. If they were, all talk of 'receiving the Spirit' would be nonsense, wouldn't it?

Now, as a disclaimer: remember I'm only playing the devil's advocate to see what others may say, its nothing against you!JFEdgar: I cant see any evidence in the fact that Jesus was talking to only his followers on the sermon on the mount. Do you know any? Even if He was, there are Christians who die of starvation anyway, so it doesn't really make much sense! I think it's clear Jesus wasn't talking about spiritual food and clothing (In Matt 6) so the rest is more of a digression.ginnyrose: thats a good, point, they could easily have been making excuses. I just want to know what they would say if it genuinely was a stumbling block in coming to Jesus :-) dohzman: That was a really good post, and reminds me that we dont have all the answers and aren't expected to! But to the best of my ability I'll try and grasp the most I can :-P "Remember, we are witnesses, not professors bringing about some great doctrine" thats really good, and reminds me that Im not in trouble evangelising when I just dont know the answers, thanks heaps for that post!InTheLight: again, thats really helpful thankyou so much! this forum is fantastic...philologos: this thread isnt really about the creation vs evolution debate or misconceptions about the Holy Spirit, I know u have been on here much more than I have and probably much wiser and more experienced, so can I ask in all humility and love, that we stay on topic (or start a new thread?). :-) bubbaguy: the issue wasnt really with "Why do bad things happen?" but "Why does Jesus claim this about The Father and we dont see any truth in it?" I mean even in Jesus' day that wouldnt have made sense to them... its interesting, thinking about the stigma around saying such a thing....*gasps for air* wow, long post, i hope i dont shut anyone down with that, keep disucssing! God bless all, this is fantastic, im learning so much! Thankyou all!

What people starving was she talking about? Were those people sinners or saints? Are the promises of God to sinners? (note. I'm not saying there hasn't been a Christian starve to death.. I don't know.. but that would have been my logic.) I would point this out...Reguardless of a persons thought of God, whether he is a mean old grandpa with a stick in his hand or a gentle loving father, they are going to face God on judgement day. God is not willing that any should perish but if he was lawless wouldn't you atleast want to please God, since He is the judge of your soul? Ofcourse we know the truth, God is love, God is holy, and God is just.

philologos: this thread isnt really about the creation vs evolution debate or misconceptions about the Holy Spirit, I know u have been on here much more than I have and probably much wiser and more experienced, so can I ask in all humility and love, that we stay on topic (or start a new thread?). I'll see it I can reconnect to an earlier thread. No offence taken! :-D

Hi Coops,We always have to establish some things when we deal with atheists and agnostics on the "why do bad things happen to good people issue". From a biblical vantage point we have to start off from the right point of reference which is this:It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. (Lamentations 3:22)It was not through God that Sin entered. It is because of God's compassion that Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil. All humanity in Adam deserves to be thrust into the lowest hell apart from God's compassion. We are simply in no position to be making any kind of agreements and certainly God was never in a postion to have to show mercy to man? If you say something like this, "lets rewind the tape a minute and go back to the beginning..." and then start from there, you can easy establish God as merciful and Satan as the one who has come to steal kill and destroy. But like building a building, you have to have that initial point of reference right or the whole survey will be off.

Amen... You can always go back to the begining and show why there is sickness disease and poverty. Which is because of sin and the fall.

If you say something like this, "lets rewind the tape a minute and go back to the beginning..." It was not through God that Sin entered. It is because of God's compassion that Christ came to destroy the works of the DevilIm using that! :-)

I cant see any evidence in the fact that Jesus was talking to only his followers on the sermon on the mount. Do you know any? Even if He was, there are Christians who die of starvation anyway, so it doesn't really make much sense! I think it's clear Jesus wasn't talking about spiritual food and clothing (In Matt 6) so the rest is more of a digression.In Matt. Chapter 5 v. 14 he says "Ye (you all) are the light of the world..." Then He continues along the same thought line and says "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven (v. 16)" You would have to argue that an unsaved person can be the "Light of the World" the "Salt of the earth" and that they are a "Child of God". The last one, I think, would be the hardest. 1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."As for Matt 6 being spiritual things, instead of physical... My personal interpretation is that it is mostly talking about physical things because of Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?" and because it ends with Matthew 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."It says the gentiles seek after these things, and that we are not to worry about them. We are to seek after Spiritual things. If God was talking about Spiritual things, then He wouldnt command us elsewhere to hunger after spiritual things (ex, the beatitudes). Right here, he tells us NOT to seek the things He is talking about, but in contrast to seek after the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. Anyway, those are just my thoughts.Love in Christ,and keep seeking Him alone,Joe

When I was doing the weekly devotionals on Abraham I paused when the Asian Tsunami had struck to share some current thoughts. The final death count was double what was estimated earlier. An thoughtful agnostic, particularly one with a Christian background, might find some things here to ponder.You will Tsunami and the Love of God in the archives.

coop writes:I cant see any evidence in the fact that Jesus was talking to only his followers on the sermon on the mount. Do you know any? Even if He was, there are Christians who die of starvation anyway, so it doesn't really make much sense! I think it's clear Jesus wasn't talking about spiritual food and clothing (In Matt 6) so the rest is more of a digression.“And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:1-3, KJVS)The introduction to the Sermon on the Mount makes it very clear that Jesus left the multitudes behind at this point and then shared these deep truths with 'his disciples'.

JFEdgar and philologos you are right, i as wrong! :-P now that point really helps in explaining things, sorry i spoke too soon, i didnt even bother to read through it, i just asked a friend who has been to bible college and assumed of course he is right...silly me, thanks for correcting it guys!God bless :-)

Philogos,This is what the Lord showed me.Mark 6:32 So they departed to a deserted place in the boat by themselves. BUT the multitudes saw them departing, and many KNEW him and RAN there on foot from all the cities. They arrived before them and came together to him.And Jesus, when he came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So he began to teach them many things.When the day was now far spent, His disciples came to him and said, This is a deserted place, and already the hour is LATE. Send them away, that they may go into the surrounding country and villages and buy themselves bread; for they have nothing to eat.But he answered and said to them, YOU GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO EAT. In other words, Jesus told his disciples, you feed them.

Coops,Not to 'puff you up', but I am impressed by your humility. Unfortunately, i rarely find people who, when they make a statement about the bible, and are confronted with clear verses, admit that they were wrong. Instead, the first reaction is always to defend their point at all costs, and maybe, possibly admit that they were wrong later. Anyway, just wanted to encourage you to "prove all things" so you are never deceived, but also to keep that humble attitude toward scripture, and freely admit when you are wrong. In my walk it is when I have come to the scriptures as a child learning from his parents that the meanings really jump out at me, and the Word is clear. Anyone can find justifications for anything, and prove any point (even Jehovah's Witnesses actually have very good arguments sometimes) but pride makes them blind. If you take the Word at its word, and come to it in humility you wont easily be deceived. Humility is key, and so many are hardened by an intellectual knowledge of the bible which makes them proud, and without charity and humility. It doesnt matter what I know about the bible, in the end, if what i "know" isnt true. It is vain and will actually heap upon me more judgement if I spout my false "knowledge". That is why it is so important (and just plain logical) to earnestly seek God to give us, not correct doctrine, but to make those doctrines which are of Him real to us. What does it matter if I believe in eternal security if I am insecure about my place in Christ, or if I reject it but there is no fear of God in me? Either doctrine is useless if it isnt real to me. Hope that makes sense. Anyway, seek Him and look only to Him, dont get caught up with anything but Christ Himself.