Born Again By What Means

1 Peter 1 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Peter states that it is the word of God that causes one to be born again. This has been my experience how about you?In ChristJeff

Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Here is another description of the means by which we are born from above. To understand this parable is key to understanding all other parables.13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?The incorruptible seed breaths life into those who hear.In ChristJeff

Another facet of a beautiful truth. Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free . Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man:how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.O precious Gospel that leads us to the LightHow great thy strength to break the powers of night.

Likewise: John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.The Spirit of God works on the heart, the words that Jesus speaks, these words bring life. In ChristJeff

Psalm 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. 107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. 109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. 110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. 111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. 112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. Do our passions align with these words written in Scripture?They should.In ChristJeff

Do we find that our lives are beginning to reflect the Light of Life that we see in the Holy Scriptures. Is our name written in the Book of Life?Is not the Holy Scriptures the "Book of Life?"In ChristJeff

Peter states that it is the word of God that causes one to be born again. Christ is referred to as the word in John 1 - so in a sense this is true. After all, Christ promised us his life - the abundant life which is the Spirit dwelling in us. It is the Spirit which births us - born (from above) John 4:5 "No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." It is a supernatural work. Apart from this divine work, we are just living the Christian life in our own strength - according to the uncrucified flesh. It may feel Christian, but in the end Christ will say, "depart from me, I never knew you." In a sense you are right. However, if we interpret those words to mean that reading the Bible and trying to follow rules in it is an indication that we are saved, then we are deceived. Diane

Sister Diane wrote:In a sense you are right. However, if we interpret those words to mean that reading the Bible and trying to follow rules in it is an indication that we are saved, then we are deceived. I agree with your thought here. Many search the Scriptures and think that they know the Eternal Life. Jesus spoke of this condition in John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Jesus declared that these men whom He spoke to did not have God's word abiding in them. He declared that these men are following other men, and not God. What does it mean to have the word of God abiding in them? Remember, Jesus judged them for the absence of God's word abiding. This means that God had already supplied the grace necessary for this to occur.Deut. 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. In ChristJeff

James 1:17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. 19Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.Here we see once again that the Scriptures are the root from which one receives salvation. verse 18, 'Of His own will He begat us by the word of truthverse 21, "...and recieve with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.""Why are the Scriptures able to save your soul if you are a doer of the word? In ChristJeff

Duet. 8:3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.Here again we see that God points us to His word. Why is it so important? Why do we talk about being born again; many times only speaking of a one time experience? In ChristJeff

Duet. 64 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.Thoughout the Scriptures we hear this exhortation. Whether it is from Moses, James, Jeremiah, John, or Peter, it is always the same.Duet 30,19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”"That you may obey His voice..."What does it mean? How does His voice implant His word in the believer's heart that he can obey? In ChristJeff

Jer. 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Also, Hebrew 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. These two verses speak of what God promises to do for those who enter into the new covenant. How does His words fill our minds and our hearts? How does this act by God cause us to be born from above? How does this act of God cause us to know His salvation? In ChristJeff

To add something from a few posts ago, the word is seed. It is planted, watered and the fruit of the implanted word is salvation.This is I believe is the way with anything of God. You asked the question about being again, that is the greatest fruit that any seed of the word can bring.Rushing,

Brother Zeke wrote:that is the greatest fruit that any seed of the word can bring.Yes, YES, YES!God BlessJeff

I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. It's good to see this reference brought into the discussion. I have to admit that a few years ago these words meant little to me, at least, not what they mean now. I'm glad the Spirit worked in me to bring me into Christ and make his Word alive in my heart. There are just some things that we cannot properly explain or comprehend unless we have been/are there, and this new covenant promise is one example. Just about everyone who is faithful in some kind of Christian church BELIEVES that they are saved/born again, or whatever terms they use in their denomination. And so, once someone BELIEVES they are God's children, then they also believe any that verse that applies to the saved also apply to them. They also think that they understand. I've been there, so I speak for myself. It seems like deception can overrule amazing inconsistancies in one's understanding of the word and its application. Diane

Roadsign, Acts 10-1 – Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no Partiality. But in every nation WHOEVER fears him and works righteousness is accepted by him.Rom 10-10 – For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION. For the scripture says who ever believes on HIM will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is RICH to all who call upon Him. For “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED”.Deu 10-17 – For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. Why would the writer of Hebrews warn those according to the failures of most of OT Israel?In ChristJeff

I might be sailing into stormy seas with this comment, but God does not save everyone who [font=Arial]calls[/font], but he certainly saves everyone who [font=Helvetica]calls[/font]on the name of the Lord.I am not emphasising loudness but am emphasising the readiness of the heart. There is a crying to God which catches his heart and there is a crying to God which does'nt.Mt thinking in this regard has been styled by a book by Walter Chantrey called 'Todays Gospel - Synthetic or Authentic'. It will explain allot about what I mean.

Why would the writer of Hebrews warn those according to the failures of most of OT Israel?Because the righteous shall live by faith. It is trusting and believing that his word is true, in faith, and in that keeping faith, believing that he who promised is faithful and will accomplish that which he intends for his word.

A. W. Tozer wrote:'Only a faith that moves the life can save the soul.'Also'We can prove our faith by our committal to it, and in no other way. Any faith that does not command the one who holds it is not a real belief; it is a psuedo belief only."In ChristJeff

Again, Psalm 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. 107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. 109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. 110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. 111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. 112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. The writer of Psalm 119 speaks of God's law. Jeremiah speaks of this same law as does the writer of Hebrews. The promise of God to write His law in the hearts of those who are His; is what seperates His people from the desires for what this world has to offer. We have seen this verse many times yet have you witnessed the word in the way that the writer of Hebrews speaks of?Hebrews 4: 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. How does this precept in this verse speak to the work of God placing His law into one's heart? How does this work cause one to be born from above?In ChristJeff

Sister Dorcas wrote:'believing what God has said to you'. When one begins to recognize His voice as you have testified; one begins to look for Him more and more each day. He lights our path. We see the light even in the dark places. We see the Light of Life.Amen SisIn ChristJeff

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, "...so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord."Has your soul been stirred by His presence? Has the words that you have heard impacted you in such a way that you see another part of the truth that is found in the Holy Scriptures. Job 3325 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. Times of refreshing brought by His presence brings a newness to life in this body that we have. 27 \tThen he looks at men and says,\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,\tAnd it did not profit me.’ 28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. 29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man, 30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life. The word of God becomes something much more than the carnal mind can comprehend. When one comes to understand this precept, one begins to recognize the "truth" in the events of life daily. The carnal life will deminish so that His life can increase. The newness of Life is the abundance that comes from the fountain of life. The living water quenches our thirst in a way that the carnal life could not.In ChristJeff

This idea of refreshing and newness of life is encouraged by Peter in the following verses.1 Peter 2:1-5 "Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, as NEWBORN BABES, desire the PURE MILK OF THE WORD, that you may GROW THEREBY, IF INDEED YOU HAVE TASTED THAT THE LORD IS GRACIOUS. Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ..."Throughout the Holy Scriptures we find this exhortation to grow by feeding on the word of God. For what purpose? Peter declare that our heart should be to "offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." A babe in Christ is not able to do this is he?In ChristJeff

"""Peter states that it is the word of God that causes one to be born again."""Who is the Word of God. Christ in us is our new birth. The Holy Spirit Teacher of The Christ in Us is part of that new birth. The Son and The Father who make their abode with us, is our new birth. Amen1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Who liveth forever? Christ in us, and us also in Him.In Christ: PhillipHi Linn :-D

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.Even a babe in Christ can be used for His good pleasure.It is not what we do or don't do, but Who we are in ChristEphesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.In Christ: Phillip

Yes it is Christ in us that saves us. Yes it is by grace through faith that we have access to all things that come from Christ. And when a babe in Christ praises the Lord it is because the Lord has worked upon the heart. But listen again to the parable which precedes all other parables.Listen to how these people recieved the word of God in their heart. Listen to what happened in the lives of those who recieved the incorruptible word.Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. What do you see in these verses? What do you want to hear? Is the word of God living and penetrating your minds and hearts as you come to terms with these Scriptures? This is how the word works on the hearts of those who submit. In ChristJeff

Is. 28:9 \t“Whom will he teach knowledge?\tAnd whom will he make to understand the message?\tThose just weaned from milk?\tThose just drawn from the breasts? 1 Corinthians 2: 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. These Scriptures point to a precept concerning those who are "babes in Christ." There is something that has not yet come to fruition. That is, the babe in Christ, knows very little of the things of the Spirit. Listen to John teach about maturity in Christ.1 John 2: 12 I write to you, little children,\t\tBecause your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I write to you, fathers,\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.\t\tI write to you, young men,\t\tBecause you have overcome the wicked one.\t\tI write to you, little children,\t\tBecause you have known the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers,\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.\t\tI have written to you, young men,\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one. How does John differentiate between those who are babes, young men, and fathers in Christ? The word of God abiding in the believer, is this not the promise of the New Covenant?In ChristJeff

Is. 55:1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,\tCome to the waters;\tAnd you who have no money,\tCome, buy and eat.\tYes, come, buy wine and milk\tWithout money and without price. 2 \tWhy do you spend money for what is not bread,\tAnd your wages for what does not satisfy?\tListen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,\tAnd let your soul delight itself in abundance. 3 \tIncline your ear, and come to Me.\tHear, and your soul shall live;\tAnd I will make an everlasting covenant with you—\tThe sure mercies of David. What is Isaiah speaking about here? What is it that satisfies and can't be bought with money? What everlasting covenant comes when we incline our ear to Him?In ChristJeff

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, Througout Scripture the word of God satisfies those who hear. The writer of Hebrews testifies of the goodness of the word of God that is the heavenly gift. Listen to other Scriptures which speak of a man's appetite being satisfied. Ezek. 3:3 And He said to me, “Son of man, feed your belly, and fill your stomach with this scroll that I give you.” So I ate, and it was in my mouth like honey in sweetness. Psa. 119:103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,\t\tSweeter than honey to my mouth! 7 \tThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;\tThe testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; 8 \tThe statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;\tThe commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 \tThe fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;\tThe judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 \tMore to be desired are they than gold,\tYea, than much fine gold;\tSweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 \tMoreover by them Your servant is warned,\tAnd in keeping them there is great reward. 12 \tWho can understand his errors?\tCleanse me from secret faults.13 \tKeep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;\tLet them not have dominion over me.\tThen I shall be blameless,\tAnd I shall be innocent of great transgression. 14 \tLet the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart\tBe acceptable in Your sight,\tO LORD, my strength and my Redeemer. Now search for how the following Scriptures also speak of God's provision for those who would hear.Deut. 32:13 \t“He made him ride in the heights of the earth,\tThat he might eat the produce of the fields;\tHe made him draw honey from the rock,\tAnd oil from the flinty rock; Psa. 81:16 \tHe would have fed them also with the finest of wheat;\tAnd with honey from the rock I would have satisfied you.” Who is the Rock from which the honey comes. 1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. Have you tasted the heavenly gift? In ChristJeff

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; What law does this speak of? Is it the Old covenant or the New covenant? Again here is the description of the New Covenant.Jeremiah 31: 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Now what law does this Scripture speak of?Psa. 40:1 \tI waited patiently for the LORD;\tAnd He inclined to me,\tAnd heard my cry. 2 \tHe also brought me up out of a horrible pit,\tOut of the miry clay,\tAnd set my feet upon a rock,\tAnd established my steps. 3 \tHe has put a new song in my mouth—\tPraise to our God;\tMany will see it and fear,\tAnd will trust in the LORD. 4 \tBlessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust,\tAnd does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. 5 \tMany, O LORD my God, are Your wonderful works\tWhich You have done;\tAnd Your thoughts toward us\tCannot be recounted to You in order;\tIf I would declare and speak of them,\tThey are more than can be numbered. 6 \tSacrifice and offering You did not desire;\tMy ears You have opened.\tBurnt offering and sin offering You did not require. 7 \tThen I said, “Behold, I come;\tIn the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8 \tI delight to do Your will, O my God,\tAnd Your law is within my heart.” 9 \tI have proclaimed the good news of righteousness\tIn the great assembly;\tIndeed, I do not restrain my lips,\tO LORD, You Yourself know. 10 \tI have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;\tI have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation;\tI have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth\tFrom the great assembly. 11 \tDo not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O LORD;\tLet Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me. 12 \tFor innumerable evils have surrounded me;\tMy iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up;\tThey are more than the hairs of my head;\tTherefore my heart fails me. 13 \tBe pleased, O LORD, to deliver me;\tO LORD, make haste to help me! 14 \tLet them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion\tWho seek to destroy my life;\tLet them be driven backward and brought to dishonor\tWho wish me evil. 15 \tLet them be confounded because of their shame,\tWho say to me, “Aha, aha!” 16 \tLet all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;\tLet such as love Your salvation say continually,\t“The LORD be magnified!” 17 \tBut I am poor and needy;\t\tYet the LORD thinks upon me.\tYou are my help and my deliverer;\tDo not delay, O my God. Look again, what law is this? Yes it speaks of Jesus but also David. 6 \tSacrifice and offering You did not desire;\tMy ears You have opened.\tBurnt offering and sin offering You did not require. 7 \tThen I said, “Behold, I come;\tIn the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8 \tI delight to do Your will, O my God,\tAnd Your law is within my heart.” Who only can cause a man to have a "new song?"3 \tHe has put a new song in my mouth—\tPraise to our God;\tMany will see it and fear,\tAnd will trust in the LORD. A carnal man knows nothing of the new song. He knows nothing of the sacrifice that God requires.Do you taste the sweetness of His word?In ChristJeff

Again, why does Paul continue to pray and exhort those are babes in Christ? Why does Paul pray for the believers to grow in wisdom and understanding?Eph. 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Listen to for what God's desire is for those who call on the name of Jesus.13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; What does perfection or more correctly maturity do for a believer in Christ?Paul identifies a stumbling block for those who are babes in Christ.14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,Now listen to Luke 8:Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. What Paul warns of is of the same consequence that Jesus identifies in the above Scripture. Jesus says that the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts.Empty doctrines of men steal the means by which the SEED can become fruitful. The trickery of men who seem to be godly are in fact the shepherds who steal and rob. These are men who claim the name of Jesus, yet their doctrine honors men who remain as the sons of disobedience. What might some of these winds of empty doctrine look like?In ChristJeff

The Lord Himself told us what He meant by "being born again'. He gave us the illustration of Moses in the wilderness who, when the Isrealites sinned and were being bit by serpents and dying, lifted up the bronze serpent and those who looked upon it lived.To be born agian is to believe into the Lord Jesus Christ who was lifted up on the Cross as the brazen Serpant who was judged for our sins.To be born again is on the basis of Christ's redemption, to be born of the Spirit to become children of God in Life and Nature. It is to be forgiven and regenerated with God's Life in Chirst to be children of God.To as many as recieved HIm. to them He gave authority to become the children of God who were.. born of God.Our human spirit through the fall is dead. It is dead to God and for all practical purposes disfunctional. It has no life and we are separated from the Life of God and we live by our fallen soul life.But through the redemption in Christ, He forgives us and regenerates us with His resurrection Life making us children of God. That is we recieve His very Life and Nature and become members of the "species of God".To be born of God is to be a child of God with His indweling LIfe and Nature. We are organically united with the risen Christ and share His Eternal Life and we are indeed children of God possesing His LIfe and His Nature. IN the end we shall be like Christ Himself fully redeemed, transformed and transfigured into His image and likeness and permeated with His Life and Nature to be His many brothers.This is what it means to be born agian.Graftedbranch

To understand the New Birth, we have to understand the process Christ underwent. In incarnation, Christ came as the Only begotton Son of God from all eternity. He is the Eternal Word made flesh.He was not only the Son of God but He was also the Son of Man. IN His divine Nature, He was the Only Begotton Son of God, but in His humanity he was the Son of Man and part of the old creation as the Seed of David through Mary.ON the cross His humanity which was part of the Old creation (the last Adam) was put to death. But in resurrection His humanity was glorified. Christ who "came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of Holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 1:3,4 RcV)Footnote RcVIN resurrection His humanity was brought into the divine sonship and he become not only the "only begotton Son of God" but also the First Born Son of God in resurrection. First born implies many to follow.AS the grain of wheat which was alone, He was sown into the ground to die, but in resurrection He brings forth much fruit and He is now reproduced in all His redeemed believers who become the many sons of God with His Life and Nature.IN Resurrection the humanity of Christ was glorified and permeated with the Divine Life bringing Man into the Divine Sonship. Now, as partakers of Christ we too enter into the Divine Sonship sharing His Eternal, Divine Life.To be born again or born of God today means to be begotton of God to recieve His Divine Life and to enter into His Divine Sonship sharing His life and ultimately His glory.IN incarnation Christ was the Only begotton Son of God made flesh. IN Resurrection Christ is the Firstborn among many brothers who share in His Divine Life and are born of God.When Christ was resurrected, He said to Mary, Go to My brothers and tell them I ascend to My Father and their Father, My God and their God. IN resurrection Christ has brought us into the Divine Sonship and HIs Father is now our Father, His God is now our God.This sonship is not merely a legal standing or "adoption" as many hold but rather is is an organic relationship. God is genuinly our Father and through Christ we are His genuine children with His indwelling LIfe and Nature. Peter tells us that we have been made partakers of the Divine Nature.Ultimately this finds its furition in the New Jeruselem which is the Wife of the Lamb, the City of God which is the consumation of God's redeemed, regenerated, transformed, conformed, and transfigured saints who are permeated with the gold of the Divine Nature and are the perfected bride of Christ.Just as Eve was taken out of Adam and fashioned to be Adams Help Meet from His very life and nature. So too the church as the Bride of Christ is fully constituted with His Divine Life and Nature to be His perfected Bride, the Wife of the Lamb and the dwelling place of God for all eternity.This is what it means to be born againGraftedBranch

"Before His incarnation Christ, the Divine One, already was the Son of God. By incarnation He put on an element, the human flesh, which had nothing to do with divinity. That part of HIm needed to be sanctified and uplifted by passing though death and resurrection"

Graftedbranch; AmenAnd who is the Word of God? We are born again by the Christ that has been birthed in us. Words don't live but Christ does. He is the Living Word, the born again don't need the words written in our heart, for Christ is now our spiritual heart, born again by the Word of God. Christ is the Word and the Author thereof, which makes the Word Living. What is born again of Spirit? Christ Himself in us the Hope of Glory. What is born again of soul? The Holy Spirit Teacher to teach us the Christ that has been born again in us by the Father. What is born again of flesh? Not yet, but quickened to be able to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit Teacher and the Father who has come with Christ to live in us in Spirit. Christ Spirit birthed in us, New Creature. The Holy Spirit birthed in us, by Christ, Teaching The New Creature who this Christ is and will teach us Christ forever. Spirit, Perfect in Christ, Soul mind becoming perfect in Christ by the Teaching of the Holy Spirit and body will be perfect on resurrection morning when we receive the resurrected corn of wheat that can enter the Kingdom of the Father and rule with Christ in the Fathers House.The word does not need to be written in the Hearts of born again birthed of the Father's son's and legal children of God with His Nature birthed in us. There is a difference in a created people the son's of Israel and the Birthed Children of the Father. Created son's of Israel need the word written in their hearts because Christ has not been born again in them. They would not be son's of Israel if Christ is in them, they would be son's of the Father, Christ ones, for there is neither Jew or Gentile in Christ. The Born Again are new creation race of birthed children not created but Born From Above with Father God's DNA which is Christ In you The Hope of Glory.Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.In Christ: Phillip

Words don't live but Christ does.Christ as the Living Word is the eternal expression and revelation of the Father. Hebrews 1:3 tells us "He is the effulgence of the Father's glory, the impress of His Substance.The Word is God revealed and God declared. Christ is the Eternal Living revelation and declaration of God. The Bible is the written Word of God. The Bible is God' breathed. It is the Holy Pnuma breathed forth in words written to convey the Living Word who is Christ.It is through the Word of Christ that we are born again, The Words of Christ convey the Living Christ into us as the Spirit. The spirit touched,Thy Word recieved,Thy Life is thusIn Me conceived.GraftedBranch

Romans 10:5-11 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.wE DON'T NEED THE LAW OR WORD WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS FOR THE WORD HIMSELF IS ALREADY IN US WHO BELIEVE. WITH OUR HEART WE BELIEVE UNTO SALVATION AND WHO IS OUR HEART, BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH THAT IS IN US? THEN WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION. HE HAS BECOME OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS NOT THE LAW OR WORD WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS, WHICH IS MENT FOR ISRAEL AND HIM RULING THEM FROM THE THRONE OF DAVID IN THE NEW JERUSALEM WITH THE BORN AGAIN AT HIS SIDE.1 Corinthians 1:23-24 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.THIS IS THE WORD WRITTEN I OUR HEARTS.1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.IN CHRIST: PHILLIP

Brother GraftedBranch:My pursuit in this thread is to go beyond the definition of what born again means to the believer. My pursuit is to discuss according to Scritpure the "means by which one is born again."As a side note, your nickname states that you are grafted in. There are other branches fed by the same God whom you were grafted in amongst. These branches, these generations, preceded the church age. Just a thought.In ChristJeff

Brother PhillipBy what means have you come to know Christ?In ChristJeff

I have come to know Christ by the Holy Spirit convicting revelation that I need a Savior. Then by the revelation that I am born again of Spirit and now have The Risen Savior birthed in me. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This Christ is the living breathing New Creation Person who is now my life. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: This revelation is given by the Holy Spirit Who has come to reveal this Christ in me the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ is the only thing that we need to know. This new Person Jesus Christ is our salvation. 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Christ in me, revealed by the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit teaching me Who this Christ is, knowing that we are one even as the Father is One with Christ. Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. My salvation is all of God and none of me and the more of Christ I become, the less I become, until one day It will be all of Christ in me as God intended before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,In Christ: Phillip

As a side note, your nickname states that you are grafted in. There are other branches fed by the same God whom you were grafted in amongst. These branches, these generations, preceded the church age.John 14:17 Even the Spirit of Reality, whom the world cannot recieve, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you.John 7:39 But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to recieve; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.Col. 1:18a And He is the Head of the Body, the Church; He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead...1 cor. 6:17 He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit...__________________________________________________________________I guess my name takes people to Romans 9. Perhaps I should change it to "Abiding Branch"My name is in reference to John 15 where the Lord establishes the organic relationship of the belivers to HImself in Life. That is He is the Vine and we are the Branches. This relationship is not one of covenent nor of legal standing (though these are true) but in this passage it refers to our relationship in Life.It's purpose is "fruit bearing" and shows that by abiding in Christ, the Sap which is the Spirit flows from the Vine through the branches and causes the branch to bear fruit for "Apart from Me you can do nothing."In the End in the New Jeruslem, which is the consumated "Wife of the Lamb" according to Rev. 21:2,9 are both the Old Testament Saints (the 12 Tribes 21:12) and the Church (21:14)as One Wife, One Bride, and one City of God.But the Church is unique today in being in direct union with the crucified and risen Christ. 1 cor 6:17 says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit". The Church is the "Body of Christ". That is He is the Head and she has His very Life and is His expression on the earth.This reality was not known prior, even in the Gospels prior to His crucifixion and resurrection because as John 7 says, "the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorifed". That is the Spirit as the Spirit of the crucified and glorified Christ.Not until the eve of HIs resurrection did the Lord Jesus appear to His diciples and breathe into them saying "recieve the Holy Spirit'(JOhn 20:22). IN the days of HIs flesh He was with the Diciples but not within them (John 14:17). Now, "though we have known Christ after the Flesh, we know HIm thus no longer."Today we know Christ because though He was with us, now He is within us as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).This the OT saints did not know. The Spirit of God came upon them and empowered them and inspired them but He did not indwell them as thier Life. They were not in organic union in their spirit with Christ. This is unique to the Church in the Church age as the Body of Christ.In the Old Testament the Presence and dwelling place of God was first the Tabernackle then the Temple. The Holy of Holies was God's dwelling place and the Temple was God's house.However in the New Testament, the Church is the house of God, and our bodies are the temple of God and our regenerated spirit is the dwelling place of God. Ephesians 2:21,22 - In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy Temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.Grafted (Abiding) Branch

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;Romans 7:4 - So then, my brotherrs, you have also been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to Another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God.The law spoken of here is the Law of the Old Covenant. But what does it convert the soul from and to? The law can change our behaviour but it cannot give us life.But for the New Testament believer the Law works in another way.The Law is a picture and revelation of the Charecter of God. It tells us what God is like and what His standard of rightousness is. However as we know from Galatians, Romans and the rest of the New Testament (and our experience confirms), the Law has no power to give life but can only condemn us because in our natural being we have no capacity to obey it or fullfill it. We cannot act Like or live up to the standard of God's Law because we simply are not God.Under the New Covenant the Law which is outward and written in stone has been fulfilled by Christ because as the manifestation of God in the flesh, He manifested the Character and attrubutes of God in His human virtues.IN Christ's death He not only paid the penalty for our breaking the Law on our behalf, He died to its juristiction (Romans 7). And as those who have been joined to Him by baptism into His death (Romans 6) We are also in Christ dead to the Law's juristiction.Today the Law for us tells us the Nature and Charecter of God who is in Christ who is now within us. Rather than seeking to apply the Law to ourselves and endevoring to keep it, rather we pray, "Oh Lord Jesus, thank you that you are the embodiment of the Living God. Thank you that you have died to redeem me from the curse of the Law. Thank you that I have died in you to the Law and it has no more claim on me."And we pray, "Thank you that this Law is a revelation of your Nature and your attributes. Thank you that you live within me. Lord Jesus, manifest your rightousness in me. Live your Life in me. Thank you that you are my indwelling Life and you are rightous and holy and perfect."When we come to the commandments, expecially in the New Testament, we know that they are the revelation of Christ. This is how Christ is. And they tell us what Christ living in us looks like. And when we come to a commandment instead of applying it to ourselves, we apply it to Christ who is within us and we Pray, Lord Jesus, live this out in me."We might also confess saying, Lord Jesus, you know I have no capacity in myself to live this way. But thank you Lord that You do. Lord Jesus, gain me, Live in me. Make this a reality in my experience. The Lord never fails to respond to such prayers and we find the reality in our experience often immediatly.IN this way we enjoy as Romans 8 says, "The rightous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit"As Handley Moule in His hymn says, "Thus shall I find a wakeful power, within me felt yet Not of me...And the result of such living is not having our self built up in self rightousness but rather we become broken vessels of the rich treasure of the Living Christ within us. When people touch us they do not touch our self rightouse piety. Rather they touch the Living God Himself and we are just broken vessels who contain this rich and Eternal treasure.Galatians 2:19,20 For I through law died to law that I might live to God. I am crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the fatih of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.Footnote RcV. The law requires us as sinners, to die, and according to that requirement Christ died for us and with us. Hence, through law we have died in Christ and with ChristGraftedbranch

Graftedbranch, where did you get these truths? Why is so hard to get Christians to understand this Christ that is in them, that they may see their death on the cross with Jesus, that they are as dead to sin as He is. That they may see their new life in Christ is His life lived through them and unless they give their mind to Christ directed by the Holy Spirit teacher, that the Christ in them is mindless. We have the mind of Christ but won't give it to Him so He can come forth as us, instead of me working incessantly to be like Him and never working His works. We must learn from the Holy Spirit how to let this power of Christ work in us and through us by His Mind that has been given us.1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I (Paul) may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in One Spirit, with One Mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;He is revealed in us now by the Holy Spirit. Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:He came in the flesh as the Jesus of Nazareth, He is come in flesh of the believer, He will come in flesh and our flesh will be like Him. This is His coming, there is no second coming, that will be just another dispensational shift in His already coming and coming in us now and coming in the millennium all of which will constitute His coming. There is no 2nd coming in the new testament.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:The law spoken of here is the Law of the Old Covenant. But what does it convert the soul from and to? The law can change our behaviour but it cannot give us life.But for the New Testament believer the Law works in another way.The purpose of the law never changes. The law was and is still today given to condemn all according to the flesh. 1 Timothy 1:1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. AlsoNeh. 10:28 Now the rest of the people—the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the Nethinim, and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to the Law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, everyone who had knowledge and understanding— 29 these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God’s Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes: Scripture says that they entered into the curse. (29 "these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse..." The law of Moses is always a curse to those who attempt to walk by their carnal minds. There is another law at work which frees all from the curse. Rom. 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. If one is elected by grace does the nature of God's favour differ in those who are His?In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:In Christ is the only thing that we need to know. Amen. Job 19:25 \tFor I know that my Redeemer lives,\tAnd He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 \tAnd after my skin is destroyed, this I know,\tThat in my flesh I shall see God, 27 \tWhom I shall see for myself,\tAnd my eyes shall behold, and not another.\tHow my heart yearns within me! Job 33: 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. 27 \tThen he looks at men and says,\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,\tAnd it did not profit me.’ 28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. Job speaks of the same thing as you. All we have to know is Christ. Yet by what means are we introduced to Christ?You have used many Scriptures to support your thoughts; why?In ChristJeff

When I was saved by believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, I didn't have a clue what had happened. I knew that God was real and that Jesus Christ was His Son. It has taken 30 years for the Holy Spirit to reveal this Christ in me, to the point that He has become my life and my all. When I was saved nothing seemed to change, I still had all the flesh pulls that I had before I believed. I could not keep what I knew God would have me do. I kept sinning and feeling guilty and condemning myself and was always defeated in my Christian walk. Then I read that there was not supposed to be any condemnation for those that are in Christ. I started to understand that the organized church was not teaching this, they were always putting me under condemnation, you must be baptized, you must attend church every time the doors are open and you must become involved in the ministry of the Church, this just did not compute with what I was reading in scripture. So I fought with the Church to try and find this freedom that I was supposed to have. I could not put scripture together, Law and Grace that is. I knew God's Law was perfect and I knew I could not keep it. Then one day I picked up a magazine about Life in the Son. That began a new journey in my Christian Walk. The magazine is produced by a X Pentecostal Minister, who came to know these words, Life in the Son. The greatest problem I had to overcome was the word that the author, Warren Litzman, was using a lot in his writings. The word was birthing, I hated it and made myself change it to born again every time I read it or heard it. Well I finally came to grips with the word birthing and it now to me is the single most precious word I know of. I came to the realization of a period of 5 or 6 years that this Christ the Son of God was truly birthed in me. Gal 2:20 and Col 1:27 became real and alive in me. The Holy Spirit, My own precious Teacher of this Christ, which came from John 14,15,16,17 revealed this Person Jesus Christ to me in a new and living way that I had been seeking all my life and was not able to obtain the oneness I craved of knowing this God who was supposed to be my Father. This past six years has been supper walk with Jesus Christ who is now my Spirit and the teaching of the Holy Spirit Who is now my Teacher and keeper of my Soul and Mind and He will be with me forever as Jesus Christ promised He would send Him from the Father. That is how I can now truly say, It is Christ and Him crucified, and this is all that I want to know, and all else will be directed in my life and that life in the Son will be the very Air I Breath, My All in All, He is the one in whom I live a move and have my being. All my life I believed there was a God but I had no idea How Much He wanted to know me and have this Personal oneness with me, can you believe that The God of this Universe wanting to have me as His son, just so He could show how much He loves me and is teaching me how I can love Him, and this makes Him happy. Wow, it beyond all comprehension, but I can testify to Its truth. My Father loves me and I am just beginning to know the true desire of my own heart and that is to Love Him, which He teaches me every day by the Life I now have in His Son, His only Begotten Birthed Son now birthed in me. I am a son of God, can you believe that? The tears flow every time I think of this miracle of miracles, my own Brother Jesus Christ leading me into His and My Fathers Love. I am incapable of making this Oneness with them understandable in mans words, but the Holy Spirit will make a way for every son and daughter to have this oneness with Them. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: When I was saved nothing seemed to change, I still had all the flesh pulls that I had before I believed. I could not keep what I knew God would have me do. I kept sinning and feeling guilty and condemning myself and was always defeated in my Christian walk. Could this be Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Then I read that there was not supposed to be any condemnation for those that are in Christ. I started to understand that the organized church was not teaching this, they were always putting me under condemnation, you must be baptized, you must attend church every time the doors are open and you must become involved in the ministry of the Church, this just did not compute with what I was reading in scripture.Gal 3: 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? The word was birthing, I hated it and made myself change it to born again every time I read it or heard it. Well I finally came to grips with the word birthing and it now to me is the single most precious word I know of. Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. I came to the realization of a period of 5 or 6 years that this Christ the Son of God was truly birthed in me.John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”Gal. 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, The Holy Spirit, My own precious Teacher of this Christ, which came from John 14,15,16,17 revealed this Person Jesus Christ to me in a new and living way that I had been seeking all my life and was not able to obtain the oneness I craved of knowing this God who was supposed to be my Father.Psalm 11999 \tI have more understanding than all my teachers,\tFor Your testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients,\t\tBecause I keep Your precepts. 101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,\t\tThat I may keep Your word. 102 I have not departed from Your judgments,\t\tFor You Yourself have taught me. 103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,\t\tSweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;\t\tTherefore I hate every false way. 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet\t\tAnd a light to my path. 106 I have sworn and confirmed\t\tThat I will keep Your righteous judgments. All my life I believed there was a God but I had no idea How Much He wanted to know me and have this Personal oneness with me, can you believe that The God of this Universe wanting to have me as His son, just so He could show how much He loves me and is teaching me how I can love Him, and this makes Him happy.1John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us. The tears flow every time I think of this miracle of miracles, my own Brother Jesus Christ leading me into His and My Fathers Love. I am incapable of making this Oneness with them understandable in mans words, but the Holy Spirit will make a way for every son and daughter to have this oneness with Them. Amen.Neither could Paul make other men understand. That is why he always prayed for the believers. Amen Brother PhillipEverything you have experienced is in Scripture. I may have not framed every thought as clearly but your thoughts will always reflect Scripture.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. In ChristJeff

My very brother Jeff, by the Christ that is in us both. Brothers in Christ doing His work, may we yield even more and become less as He becomes more. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.In Christ: Phillip

Hi Linn,Who is the Holy Spirit? What did Jesus say He would do? Where does the Holy Spirit do what He was sent to do. The Holy spirit is the Comforter and Teacher as per John 14,15,16,17 where Jesus promised He would not leave us without comfort. The Holy Spirit will teach us all things. John 14:16-21 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. By the Holy Spirit we at that day will know that Jesus is manifest Himself in us. Is He come? Yes He has come, He is in us and now is the Spirit that gives me the life of the Father. Is the Holy Spirit come. Yes He is come and is no longer with us, but is in us forever. If the Word Himself is with and in us and the teacher Himself is in us and with us forever, then why do we need the Word of God written in our hearts when our hearts already are Christ in spirit and and the Holy Spirit is our knowledge for He is in our mind and soul as teacher all we do is listen to Him and Christ is manifest to in truth and life in Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. The word needs to be written in someone's heart that does not have the Holy Spirit already their, and that would be Israel that has not been born again by believing in the Christ of God the Father. Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: He is not a God to us but we are to pray this way, Our Father who art in Heaven. He is our Father and we are not His people Israel we are son's of God and Joint heirs with Christ to the Father's house with Christ the first Fruits. All that the Father has is The Son's and all that the Son has He has given to us.Do you see the difference and why I said we don't need the word of God to be written in our hearts, because our Spirit is Christ in us the Hope of Glory and the Holy Spirit is in our soul mind teaching us this Christ by direct revelation knowledge. Revealed in our Hearts not written in our Hearts. For the Letter kills but the Spirit of the Law is Life, which is the Word of God Himself, the complete fulfillment of the Law, Christ Himself birthed in us and is the Living Word, life in us. No need to be written on or in our hearts, He is our all in all, which includes our Hearts, that is the Heart of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:"Do you see the difference and why I said we don't need the word of God to be written in our hearts, because our Spirit is Christ in us the Hope of Glory and the Holy Spirit is in our soul mind teaching us this Christ by direct revelation knowledge..."God works in many ways to make Himself known to all, so that all are without excuse. I hear what you are saying. Yet I wonder about the clarity of your message to those who are babes in Christ. These children can be swayed by every wind of doctrine. I have read about the Chinese home church. God has revealed Himself to His people, many times in demostrations of His power. They come to Him, they seek Him, they know that He is. Yet testimony after testimony speaks of what comes next in their life. They pray for Bibles to be sent to them. They hunger for the word of God that is written in their own language. They memorize whole books so that in the event that they are imprisioned they have the word without the need for paper and ink. I hear testimonies of how families tear out pages of Scripture and make copies and then exchange for other pages of Scripture. I hear of the hunger that God has placed in them for His word. This I have experienced in my own life. God teaches me line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. His worderful mysteries are revealed in a way that I always marvel at how His truth once hidden is slowly being unraveled in my mind and heart. I guess as we thirst and strive for greater understanding, God will in His wisdom work out His salvation in us. It is we who endeavor to explain where He has brought us; we strive to let His light shine in the darkness of this world; this we too are just learning to frame or comprehend what He has revealed to us in a way that others might follow. Forgeting the things of the past, let us look onward to the call of Christ in our lives. God BlessIn ChristJeff

The purpose of the law never changes. The law was and is still today given to condemn all according to the flesh. Romans 7:1-6 Or are you ingorant, brothers, (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law lords it over the man as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he is living but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law regarding the husband. So then if, while the husband is living, she is joined to another man, she will be called an adultress; but if the husband dies, she is free from the law. so that she is not an adultress, though she is joined to another man. So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to Another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God...But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter..._________________________________________________________________________________________The Law never changes and it's purpose never changes. But our relationship to it changes. In the flesh and in our natural state, It condemns us. But in Christ we died to it and in Christ we are free from its condemnation and its juristiction (Romans 7-8:1, Gal:2:19,20)For the Christian as one who is "dead to the law through the body of Christ", the law serves another function. That is it reveals to us the nature and charecter of this One who is within us, who desires to live His life through us. The Law's realm is the Old creation. The realm of Christ is the New Creation which is not in Law but in the Spirit.On the Cross the Lord Jesus terminated in HImself the Old Creation. And with it all the Laws and ordinances. And In resurrection brought into being the New Creation which is in Life. That is God is in the New Creation as its base, Its element, and its expression. Galatians ties the Law with the flesh and condemnation. And Galatians ties the Spirit with Faith and Eternal Life. And according to Paul in Galatians, "nothing avails but a New Creation."THe Spirit within us testifies to the work of Christ on the Cross. The Spirit does not direct us to the Law but to Christ. The Spirit reveals Christ to us and manifest Christ in us, the hope of Glory. And as we behold the Lord, we are transformed into the same image from Glory to Glory, even as through the Lord Spirit.Romans 7 shows us a man who is trying to live according to the law in the energy of his flesh. Romans 8 shows us a man living by the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus".Graftedbranch

Is He come? Yes He has come, He is in us and now is the Spirit that gives me the life of the Father. Is the Holy Spirit come. Yes He is come and is no longer with us, but is in us forever. If the Word Himself is with and in us and the teacher Himself is in us and with us forever, then why do we need the Word of God written in our hearts when our hearts already are Christ in spirit "When we come to the divine Word, nearly our whole being is involved. We must come with a heart which seeks after God, with a clear, sober mind, and with an open spirit. If we open our spirit to God and to His Word, we can touch God Himself behind the printed page. It is not just a matter of reading with our eyes, understanding with our mind, or seeking with our heart; it is also a matter of touching God in our spirit. If we exercise our whole being in this way, we not only receive a revelation, but some divine element revealed and conveyed by His Word will be transmitted into our spirit. So, Ephesians 6:17-18 says that we have to "receive...the word of God, by means of all prayer and petition..." We should take the word of the Bible not only by reading and studying, but also "by means of all prayer." We should read and study the Bible prayerfully; that is, we must exercise our spirit to contact the Lord by prayer with the reading of the divine Word."- Spirit and Life by W. Lee First, in 2 cor the "words (or laws) written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit" is the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant where the law is outward and written in stone.We need the word of God because in the written Word is the revelation of Christ and the Spirit uses the written Word to convey the Lviing Word.As we feed on the written Word while exercising our spirit to pray and contact the Living Lord Jesus, the Spirit opens up the writtne word and conveys the Reality behind the Word into our spirit and through it enlightens our minds, renews our hearts and sanctifies us. The Lord Jesus prayed to the Father, "sanctify them in Truth, thy Word is Truth?.Sanctification is by the Spirit through the word, Apart from the word the Spirit has no means in which to impart the Truth to us. The Spirit uses the Word and as One Saint said, "The Spirit rides best in His own Chariot.Grafted Branch

I don't see how anyone can be born again without the word being written in their heart.Amen. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of chirst. And in 1 Thess. Paul says, 'Knowing, brothers, beloved of God, your selection; because our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, even as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake...It is the Word spoken and recieved in the power of the Spirit that begets us. Not the Word only, nor the Spirit only. It is the Word by and in the Spirit that comes to us in power and regenerates us and conveys the living Christ to us.And the power of the Word spoken is determined by, "What kind of men we were among you for your sake.."That is, Only when we ourselves are in contact with and constituted with the Living Christ and living Christ as our Life and our pattern is the Spirit able through us to impart the Living Christ into others through our words.IN other words, we cannot lead another somewhere we are not and only if we are living Christ and abiding in Him and One with Him are our words effective and our words conveying the power of the Spirit.Grafted Branch

I am sorry I don't have the intellect or ability to get the understanding of what I am saying across. It is simply that I am trying to say the the Word Himself in in our Heart and we don't need it to be written if Jesus Himself is our truth, given by the Holy Spirit Power that is in us. Anyone can read the written word, but the power of it is in the Giver, a Person, Jesus Christ. Please don't misquote what I am saying, I am not saying that the Word of God is not important because it is the only way to salvation by Jesus Christ Himself who Is the Word, directed and revealed by the Holy Spirit in our Minds. Maybe I am getting Heart and Soul Mind mixed up in what I am writing. To me the Heart of a man is where the two edged sword divides the soul and spirit. The heart is where the Spirit of Christ dwells and the soul of a man is where the Holy Spirit teaches us to know and where He will be forever revealing this Christ that is in us. This is where I see that if Christ is in us then we don't need the Word written in our Hearts. I see The Holy Spirit using the Word that is in us to bring forth this Christ as us. This is a knowing not a writing, with the speaking of this knowing we are led to salvation. Christ is the Word, He is my Heart and if that is what God meant when He said "He would write His Law in their hearts, OK, but I don't think that is what He meant, for it was not written to the Christian, but to Israel.Keep going and maybe I can get this straight in my own mind and then Know what the Spirit is saying for the ears I have to Hear, and the sight I have to see.2 Corinthians 3:14-17 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; (which vail is done away in Christ.) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Then The Word of the Law will be written in their hearts.Where is the Spirit of the Lord? The Spirit of the Lord is my Spirit by being born again of Spirit and water. The washing of water by the Word, and Who is the Word? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.In Christ: Phillip

Quote;But, the other point is, I don't see how any Christian can think they are exempt from the effect of scripture. While I realise that some of it appears to be solely historical account, being the word of God, it has amazing power to speak through the Spirit, of eternal truth. I want every drop of that truth to penetrate my understanding, if at all possible. I don't want to come to verses and think they don't apply to me somehow. That's just my personal view of the necessity of eating the whole book - the whole word.I understand exactly what you are saying. When Christ was birthed in us we have all the knowledge of God in us. It is the Holy Spirits responsibility show us this knowledge, waiting to rightly divide the Word of Truth that is in us precept upon precept and line upon line. It will happen. It is God who wills amd does His good pleasure in us. The more we ask the more we will receive especially when we ask with the right motive for God won't give us a stone when we ask for the Bread of Life. We are all baptized into one Spirit The Spirit of Christ. God knows exactly how much we can handle and how to keep us from being puffed up with the surpassing knowledge we have in Christ Jesus, by the thorns we receive, praise God for the Thorns.In Christ: Phillip

Romans 9:25-33 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.Do you see that Israel has been completely cut off?Then Israel has nothing until the remnant that is saved specifically out of Israel is Gods.This remnant is not the born again, for the born again son's have no title Jew or Gentile. Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, (Question; Was Israel redeemed?)that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.There has to be a difference in son's and remnant of Israel, not son's. You cannot commingle son's and son's of Israel, they are not the same. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.Then the remnant that is Israel of God will receive the promises and covenants promised by God to them alone. They will be under the rule of Their King, Jesus on the Throne of David in the New Jerusalem. Back under the Law and that is when God will write His Law in their Hearts and then their righteousness will be of the same faith that we have now, which is of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Again that is why we don't need the law written in our hearts, it is already there by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.What justifies us if we cannot keep the Law? Christ, yes Him alone justifies us, in fact He Him has been made by the Father our Justification. What justifies us? The keeping of the Law before God, and and this makes us righteousness, that is why the fulfillment of the Law is birthed in us by Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:In Christ: Phillip

Quote:""Unless you had received the spirit of adoption - (that is, the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father on account of your faith in the Son) - you (and I) would not be sons, today.""It is not my faith but the Faith of the Son of God. Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?Even for Abraham it was not his faith but the faith of God Himself that God counted to him as righteousness. Now Christ has been made that righteousness in us, not counted to us but made.1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Glory in His faith not mine.Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Seed? If so, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross, It was Christ. He is the Seed and the birth is of that Seed from the Father. A Father cannot be a Father unless the Seed is planted in the Bride. The Holy Spirit is not the Seed, He is the barer of the Seed, just like Mary's miracle conception. We are an epistle of Christ, a living letter given to the world that His work will be accomplished on this earth. Israel could not do it, so He has to do it Himself in the son's the Father has birthed by The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ. This is the difference I am speaking of.The son's of the Father can do it, not by our works but by the Works of the Christ that is within us. We must separate the son's of Israel and the son's of God. In salvation since the Cross we have this Seed in us. Israel does not, for the Seed had not been planted in the ground, to bring forth much fruit, Christ The corn of wheat. Any person can come to Jesus Christ by believing the He is the Son of God and He is born again in the believer, be it Jew, Gentile or any other race, creed, or nationality, which means nothing, only the Christ In us the Hope of Glory. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, not Israel, they have been put on hold until the purpose that God sent Jesus Christ to the Cross for has been accomplished. God killed His only Begotten Son that He might gain son's by legal and by nature of Christ being birthed in us. Legal Heirs by Birth not by Law. We don't have to worry about Israel, God has already taken care of that.In Christ: Phillip

We know He had to die and rise again, though, to fulfil His calling in every way, and it's because of this that the Holy Spirit is available since Pentecost and, that Gentiles can be saved.This may seem a small point and not quite on topic, but the Holy Spirit was breathed into His diciples on the eve of His resurrection (John 20:21) a good 50 days prior to Pentecost.We have to understand the the Spirit is not separate from Christ, He is the Spirit of Christ and He was inbreathed into His diciples as the Spirit of the resurrected Christ regenerating them and comming into them as their indwelling Life.The Spirit which was poured out at pentecost, while the same Spirit, He was poured out as the Spirit of the Ascended Lord of Glory. The one indwelling is related to Life while the other, the baptism of the Spirit is related to "being clothed with Power from on High." IN John 20:21 the Lord Jesus breathed into them saying, "recieve the Holy Spirit' While on the day of pentecost the Spirit "sat upon them" in cloven tounges of fire. The one is internal, the other external as an enviornment. To be baptised is to be "immersed" and the baptism of the Spirit is an immersion in the Spirit as a clothing and environment. It is to be "clothed with power from on High" That is, the power of the Ascended Christ. But to be regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit is to have Him within us as our Life, Christ in you, the hope of glory. And that occurs when we repent and believe into the Lord Jesus and are born of His Spirit to be children of God with His Life and Nature.We have today both aspects of the Spirit. That is we have the indwlling Spirit through regeneration as our Life to sanctify us and to conform us to the image of Christ, and we have the Spirit available to us as the Spirit of Power for the accomplishing of His work in preaching the gospel and in building up the church.One is related to resurrection and Life, the other to ascension and Power. Graftedbranch

Just wanted to say "Amen" Phillip. I like your posts.Graftedbranch

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:This may seem a small point and not quite on topic, but the Holy Spirit was breathed into His diciples on the eve of His resurrection (John 20:21) a good 50 days prior to Pentecost.No small point at all, in fact, this is actually in line with this thread. The Scripture you have sighted in John 20:21 is clarified by Luke 24:Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on highDo you see that He opened their understanding that they might comprehend Scripture? (verse 45) Do you see the means by which God uses to save those who would hear?In ChristJeff

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter; that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. This reads in the Greek. John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father , and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you (This word with has the same meaning as in, as a part of) for ever ; Even the Spirit of truth ; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not , neither knoweth him : but ye know him ; for he dwelleth with you , and shall be in you . I will not leave you comfortless : I will come to you . Yet a little while , and the world seeth me no more ; but ye see me : because I live , ye shall live also . At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father , and ye in me , and I in you .This word is the Holy Spirit, parakletos another Comforter , This is who the Father will send, not in the place of or making One of the two but a separate entity besides Jesus Himself. He then says He Himself Jesus Christ will not leave us comfort less; comfortless; orphanos Which means an orphan, or fatherless, Then Jesus Says He will come also and make sure we know the He is in the Father and The Father in Him and us in Him, which leaves us not Fatherless but one with Christ and The Father, and The Parakletos, which is our Teacher, You cannot make the Holy Spirit Christ or Christ the Holy Spirit or The Father either of the other Two. They are one God with three individual ministrations of the manifestation of God. Has Christ come? Do we know that He is one with the Father and One with us? Yes we have all Three In One living in us, that is what Paul specifically said in all His epistles. "Christ in me the Hope of Glory."We must not commingle law and grace, and we cannot commingle What God Has set forth as His Plan for Salvation by making the Holy Spirit Christ and the Christ being the Holy Spirit. Christ is life unto God the Father where we live and move and have our being, "No One can come to the Father but by Me." The Holy Spirit is our Heavenly Revelatory Person of the God Head to reveal the Truth of Christ in us and the Sealer of the Seal that makes us Christ Ones. Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,This will upset a lot of people, but the truth got Jesus Killed for this Truth. There are some in my church that feel the same way about me.John 20:21-22 Then said Jesus to them again , Peace be unto you : as my Father hath sent me , even so send I you . And when he had said this , he breathed on them, and saith unto them , Receive ye the Holy Ghost :If you look closely Jesus breather on them not in them and they received the power upon them to accomplish the commission they had been given. They still had the Holy Spirit to come at Pentecost and then The Holy Spirit would be in them not on them, Jesus claimed this to be true when He said, "John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The Holy Spirit can only be in you when the Father answered The Prayer of His Son, and that was at Pentecost.In Christ: Phillip

If you look closely Jesus breather on them not in them and they received the power upon them to accomplish the commission they had been given.In the Greek, the work is "into". The RcV translates John 20:21-22 this way: Then Jesus said, peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, so I also send you. And when He has said this, He breathed into them and said, "Recive the Holy Spirit"Brother, I believe you have got things reversed. It is here that the Lord Jesus breathed the Spirit into them. It is in every case concerning 'Pentecost' that the words, "upon" clothed with, baptised with, sat upon, etc. are used. I like the footnote in the Recovery Version:22 This was the Spirit expected in 7:39 and promised 14:16-17,26; 15:26; and 16:7-8,13. Hence , the Lord's breathing of the Holy Spirit into HIs diciples was the fulfillment of His promise of the Holy Spirit as the comforter. This fulfillment differs from the one in Actes 2:1-4, which was the fulfillment of the Father's promise in Luke 24:49. In Acts 2 the Spirit as a rushing, violent wind came as power upon the diciples for their work (Acts 1:8). Here the Spirit as breath was breathed as life into the diciples for their life. By breathing the Spirit into the diciples, the Lord imparted Himself into them as life and everything. Thus, all that He had spoken in chs. 14-16 could be fulfilled. " Footnote John 20:21 RcVThe fruit of this "inbreathing of the Spirit" is seen in the prayer and "one accord" which preceeded Pentecost. After breathing Himself into them as the Spirit the Lord's physical appearance to them became less and less frequent. He was weaning them from His physical manifestation to knowing him inwardly as the indwelling Spirit.2 Cor 3:17 And the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom1 Cor 15:45 The First Adam became a Living Soul, the Last Adam became a Life Giving Spirit.Graftedbranch

In Luke 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.What does this say about the means by which God has ordained for His children? Why did Jesus breathe the Holy Spirit upon them? What is the result of His action? 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on highWhen Jesus said,"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you," He at that moment in time gave them the Promise. What was the result of receiving "the Promise of My Father?"In ChristJeff

This is the word in John 20: 1720. emphusaoSearch for G1720 in KJVSLemjusaw emphusao em-foo-sah'-ofrom 1722 and phusao (to puff) (compare 5453); to blow at or on:--breathe on.See Greek 1722See Greek 5453That is why they were waiting in the upper room for the Holy Spirit to come and give the power of the Holy Spirit within them. That is why the tongues of fire appeared on them to signify as an outward showing what had just happened, receiving the power of the promise Jesus has made to them. Luke 24:49 Is the interpretation of John 20:, I am giving you the promise of the Holy Spirit which is upon you and with you but will be in you. That is why they began to speak in all languages that needed to be spoken of the 12 that all could be understood in their own language and the crowd not understanding how this could be, for they are all drunk, and Peter assured them they were not. This is the power of the Holy Spirit in it giving the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jews. Repent and be baptized, Paul brought the message of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, believe and you will be saved, which he said was the final Gospel to fulfill the Word of God and Paul even called it his Gospel, the Word of God. Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip

Job 32:8 \tBut there is a spirit in man,\tAnd the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. In ChristJeff

Sorry Brother Phillip. But the Spirit at Pentecost was "upon them". "You shall recieve power after that the holy Spirit has COME UPON YOU and you shall be My witnesses..."The Spirit in John 20 is related to resurrection. Christ has not yet ascended to the throne of Power. But at Pentecost, the Spirit was poured out in power, the Power of the Enthroned Christ who is Lord of all. This is the reality of Pentecost.The Reallty of John 20 is the reality of regeneration and recieving the Lord as Life.Graftedbranch

Hi Jeff,What has separated soul and spirit of a man? The Word Himself. Hbr 4:12 For the Word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Now that my spirit is His Spirit my spiritual soul has been separated that the Holy Spirit may work in my soul mind and Christ's Spirit is now my spirit. John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, >>>He will guide you into all truth:

Graftedbranch, Yes the Spirit was upon them because they had not been give the revelation of The Holy Spirit that was in them. Just like Christ was in them, which they did not know until Paul came with the final Gospel and told them of the revelation of Christ in Him that he souly by revelation direct from Christ had been given. No one else ever knew this mystery until it was revealed to him.If you look at John 20:23 you will see the power Christ gave them and specifically to the Apostles only to forgive sin and turn sinners over to Satan. This was not resurrection power. The only other person Christ gave this power was Paul and no other person's after him.1 Corinthians 5:4-5 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Finally, "so send I you" As Christ had the power to forgive sin and turn the children of their father the devil over to satan or to destroy the flesh to save the spirit, this is that power Christ gave his Apostles the 12 only and Paul. This was a power which the primitive apostles exclusively possessed with Paul.In Christ: Phillip

Hi Jeff,This is the finish of the previous post to you.The Teacher of The Christ in you, This is the word guide in the Greek; Hodegeo: to teach, guide, lead.For He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Thus born again of Spirit by Christ in me. Then the renewing of the mind to the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit. This is the word shew; Anaggello: to announce (in detail):--declare, rehearse, report, show, speak, tell.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: Thus born again of Spirit by Christ in me. Then the renewing of the mind to the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit. This is the word shew; Anaggello: to announce (in detail):--declare, rehearse, report, show, speak, tell.I do not disagree at all with the outcome of which you speak. The renewing of the mind will take on the substance of Christ. Yes, this is salvation. Amen. Yet I ask this question. What was it that the Corinthians were lacking?First Paul states, 1 Corinthians 1:1Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. I see in these Scriptures what you speak of in your testimony here in this thread. Yet there is something more which Paul identifies as a situation that all those who are given the gift of Christ must still come to possess. 1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? Is this the Scriptural precept which you are presenting here?In ChristJeff

Yes Jeff, absolutely.The new Christian can not perceive the idea of another Person being his life. It takes direct revelation from God to understand this concept of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Just like Paul, he was going along doing the things of a good Jewish Israelite in killing these Christians and destroying the Church, probably the meanest man alive at that time, but God chose to knock Paul down, blind him, holler out of Heaven at him and tell him, he was going to suffer for His name sake. Then Jesus Christ proceeded to reveal that He the risen Savior was going to live His life through Paul. This revelation took 3 years and was from that time on, all that Paul could speak of, This revelation that Christ was in him, and that the Holy Spirit would guide him and teach him all thing he needed to know, that Paul might accomplish his commission that for all believers that Christ is given by the Father in birthing His Son in him. This is the mystery that Paul is revealing to all believers, in all his epistles, 146 times Paul speaks of this mystery of Christ in you. As new babes in Christ the Church is not teaching this and that is why we have so many different denominations and we are not all of one Mind, the Mind of Christ, if we were we would all be speaking and teaching the same that the Church might present every man perfect in Christ. So without the Church doing this, The True Body of Christ is giving this truth to those that have ears to hear and eyes to see by the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit who this Christ is and what He has done to make Jesus Christ in us our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption and all else that pertains to a perfect man in Christ Jesus the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: This revelation that Christ was in him, and that the Holy Spirit would guide him and teach him all thing he needed to know,2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Would you say then that when Paul teaches about being sealed with the Holy Spirit, that this guarantee is not just a doctrinal belief, but much more. The Spirit Himself makes known to you that He is with you and seeks to guide you. Is this how you understand what the seal of the Holy Spirit means in a much more deeper, satisfying way? In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:As new babes in Christ the Church is not teaching this and that is why we have so many different denominations and we are not all of one MindHow could we be of one mind unless we hear His voice? Isaiah 30:21 \tYour ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,\t“This is the way, walk in it,”\tWhenever you turn to the right hand\tOr whenever you turn to the left. This is the only way that we might know how to be one in Christ.In ChristJeff

Brother GraftedBranch:Psa. 19:7 \tThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;\tThe testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; According to Scripture, which law only is able to convert the soul? In ChristJeff

Finally, "so send I you" As Christ had the power to forgive sin and turn the children of their father the devil over to satan or to destroy the flesh to save the spirit, this is that power Christ gave his Apostles the 12 only and Paul. This was a power which the primitive apostles exclusively possessed with Paul.Brother Phillip,These are interesting points, however the difficulty is I don't see where this is anywhere substantiated by Scripture. What we need to see is that the Spirit is directly related to Christ. Following the Lord's imbreathing of the Holy Spirit into His diciples, there were no casting out of devils or forgiveness of other's sins, The Only fruit was that they were in one according awaiting the day when the Promis of the Father would take place. That is the outpouring of the Spirit in Power. And that took place only after the Lord Jesus ascended to the throne of Power.The Spirit is the Spirit of christ. He cannot be separated from Christ.I like Andrew Murray's word in "The Spirit of christ":"From His nature, as it was glorified in the resurrection and ascension, His Spirit came forth as the Spirit of His human life, glorified into the union with the Divine, to make us partakers of all that He had personally wrought out and acquired, of Himself and His glorified life. In virtue of His atonement, man now had a right and title to the fulness of the Divine Spirit, and to His indwelling, as never before. And in virtue of His having perfected in Himself a new holy human nature on our behalf, He could now communicate what previously had no existence,-a life at once human and Divine. From henceforth the Spirit, just as He was the personal Divine life, could also become the personal life of men. Even as the Spirit is the personal life principle in God Himself, so He can be it in the child of God: the Spirit of God's Son can now be the Spirit that cries in our heart, Abba, Father. Of this Spirit it is most fully true, 'The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."Andrew Murray - The Spirit of Christ Ch 6Graftedbranch

Quote:"""Psa. 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; According to Scripture, which law only is able to convert the soul?""" Did it? If it could, Christ did not have to come and He died in vain.In Christ: Phillip

John 20:19-23 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.This is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) This is the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Ephesians 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom (this is the Spirit of Christ 1Cor 1:30)and revelation in the knowledge of Him:(This is the Holy Spirit) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;(By The Holy Spirit) that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, (Christ's calling) and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance (This is Christ and His inheritance is Col 1:27)in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power (God the Father)to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,This was the baptism of The, and with The and into The Holy Spirit. Acts 1:2-5 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he >>through

I don't know why but the posts are limiting to only specific space allocated and must be posted again to finish the post.Page 2the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.Then They were filled with the Holy Spirit, Not before.Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (((And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,))) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.There was 120 waiting for the Promise which included all the apostles except Judas. Acts 1:13-15 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)In Christ: Phillip

esus breathing on them may have primed them for the sound of a mighty rushing wind, such as they later heard on the day of Pentecost, but, they were the same unregenerate people they had been before the crucifixion - though they were on a steep learning curve as to God fulfilling prophecy.Brothers,I submit that the only reason that there is a problem with this scritpure and the fact that they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit on the Eve of Christ's resurrection is only because of tradition. That is preachers have preached that "the Spirit did not come till pentecost" for so long and this scritpure has been ignored for so long that it just goes against our preconcieved idea.The fact is there is absolutely no reason not to assume that they were regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit when Christ breathed on them and said, "recieve the Holy Spirit". IT is implied in the text.As to their being in "one accord" on the day of Pentecost, this exact senario was repeated again, when they again (after pentecost) were in "one accord praying and they were suddenly "filled with the Spirit' This was following pentecost and they again were filled.Sorry to say but much of "pentecostal doctrine" has grown up around much misinterpretation, ignoring of scritpure, minemphasis, and very sensationalistic views. And the Reality of the Spirit as the Spirit of the Crucified and resurrectect Christ has been ignored.IN most circles the Spirit does not even seem to be in any way connected to Christ. He is seen as another One, who comes to take His place and perform miricals, etc. But His relationship to the crucified, resurrected, and ascended Christ is absent from most's treatment of the Spirit.Graftedbranch

Sister Dorcas wrote:By the way, this request should not be taken to imply that I agree with Phillip's position entirely. I do, however agree with him that until Pentecost, there was no infilling of people, with the Holy Spirit.Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”Here is another section of Scripture which speaks of Christ giving the Holy Spirit to the 11 Apostles. This section speaks of the same event in John 20.Look very carefully to what verse 49 actually says. "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you..." The moment Jesus said this it occurred. The infilling of the Spirit happens many times in the OT Scripture. This is nothing new, God and His promises are the same for all men. Num. 27:18 And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him; Neh. 9:30 \tYet for many years You had patience with them,\tAnd testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets.\tYet they would not listen;\tTherefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. Is. 57:15 \tFor thus says the High and Lofty One\tWho inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:\t“I dwell in the high and holy place,\tWith him who has a contrite and humble spirit,\tTo revive the spirit of the humble,\tAnd to revive the heart of the contrite ones. 1Sam. 10:6 Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 1Sam. 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Is. 11:2 \tThe Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,\tThe Spirit of wisdom and understanding,\tThe Spirit of counsel and might,\tThe Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. Is. 42:1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,\tMy Elect One in whom My soul delights!\tI have put My Spirit upon Him;\tHe will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. Is. 61:1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,\tBecause the LORD has anointed Me\tTo preach good tidings to the poor;\tHe has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,\tTo proclaim liberty to the captives,\tAnd the opening of the prison to those who are bound; Is. 63:10 \tBut they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;\tSo He turned Himself against them as an enemy,\tAnd He fought against them. 11 \tThen he remembered the days of old,\tMoses and his people, saying:\t“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea\tWith the shepherd of His flock?\tWhere is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, Ezek. 2:2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. Ezek. 11:19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, Joel 2:28 \t“And it shall come to pass afterward\tThat I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;\tYour sons and your daughters shall prophesy,\tYour old men shall dream dreams,\tYour young men shall see visions. 29 \tAnd also on My menservants and on My maidservants\tI will pour out My Spirit in those days. Mic. 3:8 \tBut truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the LORD,\tAnd of justice and might,\tTo declare to Jacob his transgression\tAnd to Israel his sin. Mal. 2:15 \tBut did He not make them one,\tHaving a remnant of the Spirit?\tAnd why one?\tHe seeks godly offspring.\tTherefore take heed to your spirit,\tAnd let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. Luke 4:18 \t“The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,\t\tBecause He has anointed Me\tTo preach the gospel to the poor;\tHe has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,\tTo proclaim liberty to the captives\tAnd recovery of sight to the blind,\tTo set at liberty those who are oppressed;James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? This is what this thread is all about. Will we continue in the doctrines of men or will we seek to understand His word through the power of His Holy Spirit. In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:I don't believe the man had a change of nature. I don't believe the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop walking in sin, such that he had now no need to partake ever again of the sacrifices or the Day of Atonement.1Sam. 10:6 Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. What kind of man did the Spirit of God create in Saul?I have asked this of Graftedbranch, what law only is able to convert the soul?Psa. 19:7 \tThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;\tThe testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; Brother Phillip answered that it is the Law of the Spirit of Christ. I concur with him that this is true. Yet David also knew of this law. How else could he please God for we know that the law of Moses condemns and cannot change the nature of the carnal mind. Do we who have the indwelling Spirit have the same yearning for our Lord as David had for his Lord? In ChristJeff

The writer of Psalm 119 knows he cannot keep God's law. Listen to his prayer for God to empower him, to enable him not to lie.25 \tMy soul clings to the dust;\tRevive me according to Your word. 26 \tI have declared my ways, and You answered me;\tTeach me Your statutes. 27 \tMake me understand the way of Your precepts;\tSo shall I meditate on Your wonderful works. 28 \tMy soul melts from heaviness;\tStrengthen me according to Your word. 29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,\tAnd grant me Your law graciously. He looks to God and His gracious law to remove the way of lying in him.Listen again for his next prayer.33 \tTeach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,\tAnd I shall keep it to the end. 34 \tGive me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;\tIndeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart. 35 \tMake me walk in the path of Your commandments,\tFor I delight in it. 36 \tIncline my heart to Your testimonies,\tAnd not to covetousness. 37 \tTurn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,\tAnd revive me in Your way. "Make me walk in the path of Your commandments," Do you hear what he is praying for. He knows that in himself there is no power to obey. He knows the way by which God's grace enables him to obey. By what means does God enable His people who know Him?In ChristJeff

Let's approach this question a different way, then. Jesus breathed on the disciples. How did that change them? (Supporting scripture?)The first fruit, Which is actually prior but is tied in because it is the fruit of Christ's resurrection, is that He said to Mary in 20:17 ... but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." And in keeping with this word he came to them and breathed on them saying, "Recieve the Holy Spirit".This was the first time the Lord Jesus ever refered to them as such and never before called them "brothers" except in a prophetic way. Because He had been crucified and resurrected, they now are brought into the divine sonship sharing His LIfe and recieving the "Spirit of Sonship, in whom we cry "Abba Father'It is the indwelling Spirit that unites us with the crucified and resurrected Christ and brings us into HIm and HIm into us and causing us to share through His redeeming death and resurrection Life, His divine Sonship.And prior to this (breathing on them), the diciples were never ever "in one accord" and there is not even a record of them "praying" just asking the Lord to "teach us how to pray".But here in Acts prior to Pentecost. we see the diciples gathered togeterh in the upper room. We see them in prayre in in one accord. Fruits of the indwelling Life of the Lord.Also following the Lord's resurrection but prior to pentecost, we see Him as our brother pointed out, on the road to Emmaes, "He opened their understanding and began from Moses and the prophets to reveal to them all the things concerning Himself. This is as was promiesed, "When He, the Spirit of Reality shall come, He shall guide you into all the Reality and He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you." And the diciples testified, "did not our hearts burn within us as He walked with us along the way?"These are all fruits of the Spirit who is the Spirit of the glorified and resurrected Christ.But on Pentecost, according to the promise of the Father, the Spirit was poured out "upon them" and "clothed them" with power. This is like the mantle of Elija. It is an emersion in the Spirit.The best illustration is that to recieve the Spirit as Life is like drinking the water, but to be immersed in and clothed with is like being put into a pool of Water. One is external as an envorinment and the other is a drinking of the Water of LIfe to be internal.We need both aspects of the Spirit. We need Him as our indweling Life to regenerate us, to sanctify us and to conform us inwardly to Christ. We also need the Spirit as poured out at pentecost as our Power for preaching the gospel and doing the work of the Ministry. ONe is related to Life, the other to service and preaching.The biggest point is that we first need to know Christ as our indwelling Life to prepare us for the 'outpouring of the Spirit in power". If we have "power" but not the inward knowlege of Christ as Life, we can be puffed up. If we don't know Him inwardly, then "works of Power" only make us taken up with sensationalism and a desire to see, "miricals" and such, which sad to say is charestic of many who advocate the 'penecostal experience". But when we develop our inward knowlege of Christ through the Spirit, we are prepared to be those who can be used in the work in power.Graftedbranch

Sister Dorca wrote:You are not suggesting King David was born again, are you?Yes.Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Paul teaches that Isaac also was born of the Spirit just like us. In ChristJeff

Brother, Jeff.Issac was born of Abraham according to the flesh, but He was the child of the promise. Issac is a type or picture of being "born of the Spirit'and Ishmael of one "born of the flesh, just as Issac was a type of Christ being offered on Mt Moriah. It is typology.This scripture is not suggesting that the OT saints were born agian in the way New testament Saints are. IN fact in John 7 It is written when the Lord Jesus was speaking of Living waters flowing from our inner most being, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom they were to recieve, but the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified.The Spirit as the Spirit of the crucified and resurrected Christ was "not yet" because Jesus had not yet been glorified.IN the Old Testament, the Spirit came upon them. He inspiried them. He empowered them. But He did not indwelling them as their life. It required Christ to go through the 2 processes of becomming flesh (John 1:17 and becomming the Life Giving Spirit in resurrection (1 Cor 15:45) to be able to enter into us as our indwelling Life and to bring God into us and to take us into God.This is why when Jesus was glorified (in resurrection), He could now breath into them saying. "Recieve the Holy Spirit" (John 20:21)Graftedbranch

Other questions: if the disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them, what about the other 109 people in the 10 day prayer meeting which preceded Pentecost? Do you think they were born again? If so, when and how?Pentecost only happened one time. There has never again been a recurence of the sound of a rushing mighty wind, and the "cloven tongues of fire" which sat upon each of them". However the reality of Pentecost is with us even now. That is the outpoured Spirit of the Ascended Lord.In the Same way, Christ's breathing into them was a one time occurance, but the reality of Christ indwelling us and regenerating us when we believe into Him is with us today just the same. That is when we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and beieve in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead we are saved and regenerated and recieve the Divine Life of Christ. I am sure that following His "breathing into them" they went and told the others and they too experienced the reality of the indwelling resurrected Christ. Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come, but of the inward work of the Spirit regenerating them and bringing them into the reality of the Divine Sonship. The Lord Jesus said in John 1, "to as many as recieved Him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His Name... who were born of God." And concerning our oneness with Christ and in Christ, the Lord prayed in John 17 "I pray not for these alone but also for those who believe into Me through their word". Christ does not appear to each one of us physically and breath on us or into us. But He comes into us when we call on HIm and believe into Him. And even though the Spirit does not decend on us with the sound of the mighty wind and sit upon us with cloven tongues of fire, we too enjoy the reality of the outpoured Spirit who clothes us with power to do the work of the New Testament ministry.In the same way today, if we are believers, we don't need to plead with God every day to regenerate and indwell us again, but rather we need our eyes opened to see and know the reality of His indwelling us. So too we don't need to plead with God and "tarry" for the outpouring of the Spirit for the work, but rather we need to have our eyes opened to see that Christ has been enthroned and the Spirit is poured out and He is available to us for the work God has called us to do. We need to do more thanking and rejoicing to enter into the Divine Realites than to plead for God to do some new thing. Our great need is revelation, having the eyes of our heart enlightened to see the economy of the mystery.Graftedbranch

Brother Graftedbranch wrote: IN fact in John 7 It is written when the Lord Jesus was speaking of Living waters flowing from our inner most being, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom they were to recieve, but the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified.There is another place in the book of John where Jesus prays to the Father that He be glorified and this takes place well after John 7. Do a word search and find when our Lord was glorified.In ChristJeff

There is another place in the book of John where Jesus prays to the Father that He be glorified and this takes place well after John 7.The Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 that the Father would "glorify Him with the glory which He ever had with Him before the world was."This was just prior to His crucifixion and resurrection. He was glorifed in resurrection (Acts 3:13-15). Resurrection was His glorification (1 cor. ch. 15). Resurrection was the Father's answer to His prayer in John 17. His glorification was completed in His ascention where He had bestowed upon HIm the Name which is above every Name. "This Jesus whom you crucified, God has made both Lord and Christ". He was glorified intrinsically in resurrection and extrinsically (outwardly) in ascention.That the outpouring of the Spirit is directly related to Christ's exaltation is evident in Acts2:33 "Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having recieved of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hast poured forth this, which you see and hear"Watchman Nee says concerning this verse "Because the Lord Jesus died on the Cross, I have recieved forgiveness of sins; because the Lord Jesus rose from the dead, I have recieved new life; because the Lord Jesus has been exalted to the right hand of the Father, I have recieved the outpoured Spirit. All is because of HIm. Nothing is because of me." The Norman Christian Life pg. 88Graftedbranch

I am sure that following His "breathing into them" they went and told the others and they too experienced the reality of the indwelling resurrected Christ. Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come, but of the inward work of the Spirit regenerating them and bringing them into the reality of the Divine Sonship. So one set recieved by being breathed on and the others by the telling of it?Was not this a pledge prior to that which was poured out? Something seems amiss with "Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come"Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. What about Thomas then?And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them. (p) Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13.John Gill

What about Thomas then?John 20:26,27 And after eight days, His diciples were again within, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though the doors were shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace be to you. Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing"John 20:26,27 tells us Thomas was yet, 'unbelieving'. The Lord said to him ... And do not be unbelieveing but believing.Paul in Romans tells us, "if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved."We are regenerated when we believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead.Graftedbranch

Sister Dorcas wrote:I don't believe the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop walking in sin, such that he had now no need to partake ever again of the sacrifices or the Day of Atonement.First Sis, it is not my desire or intent to force any belief of mine upon you. What I have found in Scripture this I too have struggled with for a long time. The struggle is always between what I thought once and what Scripture is revealing now. Many times it does not agree with what men teach now. For example, I once listened to sermons that were recommended here at SI by Zac Poonen and in one of his teachings he said the same thing that you have said. Poonen teaches that God did not provide the means by which men could satisfy His law until the day of Pentecost. Yet in the Psalms I hear men asking God for the grace to enable them to overcome their sin. These are the Holy Scriptures divinely given to us. The prayers written down in Psalm 119 were sung over and over and over by those who lived in the OT times. Does not the word of God have power upon those who hear? Would not those who sung the Psalm 119 ask the same question that I myself am asking at this very moment in time? There is an old saying in Calvary Chapel bible college teaching, where God calls He provides. Search the Scriptures, seek to hear the prayers of the saints of the OT times. The mystery of Godliness spoken by Paul to Timothy are found in the OT Scriptures. Keep on keepin on Sister.In ChristJeff

Have always had a rather large problem with the rap Thomas gets, none of the other disciples were yet 'believing' prior to seeing the risen Lord either. Certainly they were all confused, scarred and in great apprehension. What seems to get missed is something that we all could learn from... he didn't take anyones word for it. "Untill I see...Just as well the point is what the Lord said, but it is also what He had been saying all along, before he was crucified.One of things often forgotten is how it was also Thomas who said "Let us go and die with Him". Confused, yes. But "doubting", I think it's on the wrong lines...

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:The Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 that the Father would "glorify Him with the glory which He ever had with Him before the world was."John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.We often speak of the glory of the cross and look at this moment in time and say, "from this point forward does God provide." Yet there is more to this thought. Jesus prays to the Father to "restore" the glory that was temporarily given up by Him, so that He might accomplish the work that was foreordained before the foundations of the world. The glory Christ had after the cross is no different than the glory He posssessed before He became man. So if one's doctrine limits Christ's work the glory that came after the cross, then does one really believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? This is not meant as an attack but just to point out what do we really believe and why.Based on Scripture we know that Christ asked the Father to give back to Him the glory that He had prior to becoming man. The nature of the glory that Christ speaks about in John 17 speaks of those whom He saves. The spiritual precept of becoming one with Christ and the Father goes back to Genesis 3:15 does it not? I'll stop for nowIn ChristJeff

So if one's doctrine limits Christ's work the glory that came after the cross, then does one really believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? This is not meant as an attack but just to point out what do we really believe and why.Yes indeed, Christ's glory which he laid aside was restored to Him. Only there is a new element. It is the same glory but that glory is now restored to Christ as the resurrected God/man. In His resurrection His humanity was glorifed with the Divine Glory. And in ascension, He as a Man was "given the Name which is above every Name".It is the same glory but this Christ who is eternally the Only begotton Son of God and shared in the Father's glory, has become in incarnation a man and as a man He was crucified and resurrected as the Firstborn Son of God and now is enthroned. There is a Man in the glory.And we too according to 2 Thess. 2:14 are destined to share in His Glory."To which also he called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."Graftedbranch

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:Issac was born of Abraham according to the flesh, but He was the child of the promise. Issac is a type or picture of being "born of the Spirit'and Ishmael of one "born of the flesh, just as Issac was a type of Christ being offered on Mt Moriah. It is typology.This doctrine of teaching about "typology" limits one's understanding of what is really going on in the OT. I once accepted the doctrine of typology. But this is a very superficial attempt to explain what is really going on. There is a spiritual precept throughtout Scriptures which teaches that man either grows in the likeness of Satan his father or repents and is born, is adopted by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Search for the Scriptures where Jesus speaks about what it means to become one with the Father and Himself. If one grows in the likeness of Jesus he or she actually begins to reflect His nature here on earth. This spiritual oneness I believe is reflected throughout Scripture. So when one speaks of typologies and applies it to various individuals of the OT, I see it as the real thing. I see Christ and His work in these examples. Scripture is given to us so that we might see and understand. The Spirit of God has always desired to transform man into the image of His Son. In ChristJeff

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:Yes indeed, Christ's glory which he laid aside was restored to Him. Only there is a new element.Jesus according to Scripture is the same always, just as the Father and Holy Spirit. There is nothing new. God cannot become greater than He is. Question: What did Jesus do with His glory before He became man?In ChristJeff

This doctrine of teaching about "typology" limits one's understanding of what is really going on in the OT.It is Paul in the New Testament which utilizes the Old testament in the way of types and shadows. For instance in 1 corinthians we are told that the Rock which followed them (in the wilderness) was Christ. We are told that Christ is our Passover. We are told that Christ is the Manna. The Old testament is used in the New Testament extensively in the way of Types and pictures and shadows of the New Testament realities. The book of Hebrews is full of references to the Old Testament in the way of Types. Such as "Melchesidek being a type of Christ as the Hight priest." And the Good land being a type of the believers rest in Christ. In fact in Galatians 4:22-25 in the passage under question, Paul states specifically that this is a type in vs. 24 "These things are spoken allegorically, for these women are two covenants, one from Mount Sinai, bringing forth children unto slavery, which is Hagar..."This is a New Testament principle of interpreting the Old Testament. It is not a new thing. It is derived from the Scriptures themselves.We cannot apply the Old Testament to ourselves today in the way it was applied to those who lived under the Old Covenant. We have to interpret and apply the Old testament in light of the New Testament and in the principle of the New Testament as those who are under the New covenant.Today there is no outward temple, there are no sacrafices, there is no Shekinah glory manifest in the Tabernackle. There is today only Christ. And Christ is the end of the Law for rightousness to them that believe. Christ is the substance of all the types and shadows of the Old testament.Graftedbranch

Jesus according to Scripture is the same always, just as the Father and Holy Spirit. There is nothing new. God cannot become greater than He is.Intrinsically as God Christ is immutable, He is unchanging and eternal. But who can deny that in God's economy, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us?" And as 1 cor. 15:45 speaking of Christ in resurrection, "The Last Adam became a Life Giving Spirit".These are two "becommings" of Christ. Before Christ's incarnation he was only God, He did not have a human nature. In incarnation He became a man. Something he was not before, He did not have humanity, He had only divinity.In His Divine nature Christ is unchanging and immutable. But in taking on created humanity he subjected himself to the limitations of humanity. He grew, he hungered, he was thirsty, he was crucified and died. His glory was concealed and only revealed on the mount of Transfiguration briefly of which John testified, "We beheld His glory, Glory as of the Only begotton of the Father". And Peter in his epistle testifies of the same.Glory is God expressed, The Glory of God was concealed in Christ. By death his Glory was released and in resurrection his dead humanity was permeated with the Divine Glory. In Resurrection Christ's humanity entered into the Divine glory. And in the end as those who have partaken of Christ, we too shall share in His glory.2 Thess 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ"Graftedbranch

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:It is Paul in the New Testament which utilizes the Old testament in the way of types and shadows. For instance in 1 corinthians we are told that the Rock which followed them (in the wilderness) was Christ. We are told that Christ is our Passover. We are told that Christ is the Manna. The Old testament is used in the New Testament extensively in the way of Types and pictures and shadows of the New Testament realities. I see it in a different light. Paul uses these examples to point out where one should go to understand what he is talking about. I believe that Jesus revealed the meaning of the Scriptures that Paul already knew in the OT. We see another example of this thought when Jesus walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. Jesus did not reveal anything new but revealed Himself in the OT Scriptures. Their hearts burned within them. The word of God revealed will not fail to accomplish what was intended. Have you ever searched for the "Rock" in OT Scriptures?In ChristJeff

I see it in a different light. Paul uses these examples to point out where one should go to understand what he is talking about.The light we should have is the Light given us in the Scritpures. In the passages aluded to, Paul is using the OT in the way of Types. "Christ our passover has been sacrificed" etc. And expecially in Galatians 4:22-21 He specifically tells us he is using these scritpures "allagorically" That is as a type.Brother, we need to understand the Word in light of the Word and in the Way the Word shows us and according to the usage of the OT in the New. Your view is not in accordance with the usage of the OT in the New. IT ignores the plain reality that the NT uses the OT in the way of Types and shadows.Surely the Old Testament is literal and its events are literal in the record, But their signifigance to us is in typology and the revelation of Christ int them as Christ is the reality of all the types and shadows and pictures in the Old Testament.Graftedbranch

Sis wrote:I acknowledge that King David had a prophetic understanding of the work of Christ, including when God would not impute sin to him, but, to claim that he was born again - or that anyone in the Old Testament was born again - puts John 3 into a different light... not necessarily a correct one. A.W. Tozer believed as I do. I am not alone.In ChristJeff

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:The book of Hebrews is full of references to the Old Testament in the way of Types. Such as "Melchesidek being a type of Christ as the Hight priest." And the Good land being a type of the believers rest in Christ. Melchezedec is Christ. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=978&forum=36&97In ChristJeff

Joh 20:22And kai when he had said epw this touto, he breathed on (emjusaw) them, and kai saith legw unto them autoV, Receive ye (lambanw) the Holy agioV Ghost pneuma:(emjusaw) 1720. emphusaoSearch for G1720 in KJVSLemjusaw emphusao em-foo-sah'-ofrom 1722 and phusao (to puff) (compare 5453); to blow at or on:--breathe on.Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.(lambanw) 2983. lambano Receive Ye the Holy SpiritSearch for G2983 in KJVSLlambanw lambano lam-ban'-oa prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove)):--accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).In any tense or any context this word; receive ye, does not mean the indwelling of Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 in being filled.Ac 2:4And kai they were plhqw all apaV filled (plhqw)with the Holy agioV Ghost pneuma, and kai began arcomai to speak with lalew other eteroV tongues glwssa, as kaqwV the Spirit pneuma gave didwmi them autoV utterance apojqeggomai.(plhqw)filled; 4130. plethoSearch for G4130 in KJVSLplhqw pletho play'-tho pleo pleh'-o (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form pimplemi)to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time):--accomplish, full (...come), furnish.This is when the Holy Spirit filled the believers that were waiting in the upper room to receive the Promise Christ had given of the Comforter the Father would send at the prayer request of Jesus Christ.Even then still they did not understand what had happened, it took Jesus Christ and His intervention by direct revelation to Paul to explain that Christ Himself and His Spirit was now birthed in the believers, and that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ and that He, the Holy Spirit would reveal all truth about Christ in you the Hope of Glory and that He The Holy Spirit is One that gives the Gifts of Christ to man and distributes them as He, the Holy Spirit pleases.1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit , dividing to every man severally as He will .This is the Holy Spirit as "He will," not the Spirit of Christ.Christ and His Spirit thereof is the Seed that is Born Again in the Believer, any time you see the Spirit referred to as being completed it is the Spirit of Christ and anytime you see The Spirit working or moving or teaching or giving truth, It is the Holy Spirit doing His work in us, the Work of Christ has already been accomplished on the Cross, in Him a New birth, a new creation race of People, Christ-ones. Jesus Christ is our life, the Holy Spirit is the teacher, mover, power and worker in us of this Christ Life.1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Ephesians 3:4-5 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Revealed, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, this is not the Spirit of Christ that has been birthed in us. The Holy Spirit after Pentecost is always the Worker in us. Christ was the Worker when He was with them, that is why He had to leave so the Holy Spirit would come. Christ said, "We have no need to fast as long as He is with us" but we need to fast always because we want Him to be not only in us, but with us, this is our Fasting. Luk 5:34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? Luk 5:35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. In Christ: Phillip

Brother wrote:In fact in Galatians 4:22-25 in the passage under question, Paul states specifically that this is a type in vs. 24 "These things are spoken allegorically, for these women are two covenants, one from Mount Sinai, bringing forth children unto slavery, which is Hagar..."Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Is this true or not? One is either adopted into the kingdom or one remains in bondage to sin. What promise allows us to enter into the kingdom?In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.Luke 24: 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”Jesus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?In ChristJeff

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:These are two "becommings" of Christ. Before Christ's incarnation he was only God, He did not have a human nature. In incarnation He became a man. Something he was not before, He did not have humanity, He had only divinity.What did Christ do before He had only divinity? What was His work?In ChristJeff

What did Christ do before He had only divinity? What was His work?Colossians 1:16 "Because in Him (Christ) all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things and all things cohere in Him."John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."This is the work of Christ before incarnation. He was with God and Was God.vs. 14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."Graftedbranch

esus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?The promise of the Father was the outpoured Spirit according to many of the prophecies of the Old testament. But the inbreathing of the Holy Spirit on the eve of Christ's resurrection was the fulfillment of the promise of Christ in John 7 and John 14. That is the Spirit of Christ as our indwelling Life in resurrection.The Promise of the Father is related to the outpoured Spirit in power, the Power of the ascended Lord. But the promise of the Spirit as our indwelling Life as the Lord gave in John 14 is related to His resurrection, our regeneration and our "knowing that He is in the Father and we are in Him and He is in us" As also in John 7 "But this He spake of the Spirit. But the Spirit was not yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified.Jesus was glorified in His resurrection. the Spirit of the resurrected Christ was breathed into His diciples regenerating them and bringing the Divine Life into them. At Pentecost the Spirit was outpoured according to the "promise of the Father" in power because Christ had been exalted to the "right hand of the Father".Life is related to resurrection, Power is related to ascension.Graftedbranch

Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.The word spirit in Greek is pnuma or "breath". The Holy Spirit is the "Holy Pnuma" or Holy breath.I don't think it could be plainer, Christ as the resurrected God/Man breathed into (onto) them and said, "recieve the Holy Spirit". If His breathing onto them and saying, "recieve the Holy Spirit does not imply that He breathed onto them "the Holy Pnuma" Then I believe that we are talking about two different passages of scripture.Whether it is onto or into, the meaning and implication is the Same. The Resurrected Lord breathed to them the Holy Pnema or Spirit and said, recieve the Holy Spirit.Why is is so hard to admit that there is possibly two aspects to the Spirit? The Spirit as resurrection life and the Spirit poured out as Power. One quietly internal, the other with a loud rushing wind for power for the work. Why is this a difficult thing to see. Is is just becaue it is not the traditional view?I suggest that in many circles the Power of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit according to Pentecost are emphasised but the inward work of the Spirit in revealing and imparting Christ into us as Life is not known or preached.The Spirit as Power for doing great and miraculous things is preached and emphasised but the Spirit as our inner life is neglected.That these two aspects are real is evident in the testimony of many servants of Christ. They may have been saved and regenerated for a long while, but they did not know the outpoured Spirit in power till some specific time in their ministry. Surely we need both aspects. We need the growth and maturity of Life by the indwelling Spirit and we need the power for the work of the gospel and building up the body of Christ.Graftedbranch

Hi Jeff, Re: Brother Phillip wrote:Quote:Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.Luke 24: 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”Jesus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?In ChristJeff To wait in Jerusalem until the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, My promise is upon you, tarry until the Holy Spirit is sent with Power from the Father on High.Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.Pentecost is the fiftieth day from Passover, when Jesus ask them to tarry in Jerusalem, He had already been with them for some time from His resurrection, teaching them and showing Himself resurrected to over 500 persons. It was just a few days they had to tarry until Pentecost was come and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, when the 120 had tongues of fire on their heads to signify what had happened inside them Christ in them the Hope of Glory and the Holy Spirit power Worker Teacher for this miracle that had just been born again in them, the Spirit of Christ's Seed.John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. He had not gone when He breathed the promise upon them.No more squabbling over such a mute point, Christ has come and so has the Holy Spirit.If I am wrong please forgive me. In my spirit I have given the truth of the Word as I have been given it. If I am wrong I am sure the Holy Spirit will forgive me and show me the truth and I will repent. I know Christ is my Life and The Holy Spirit is my Teacher thereof.In Christ: Phillip

No more squabbling over such a mute point, Christ has come and so has the Holy Spirit.Amen Phillip,The fact is that Christ is both resurrected and ascended. The Spirit has been given both as resurrection Life and also Power. He is both our indwelling Lord and life as well as our Power for Service. He is both. The Sequence of His comming or the order of events practically for us is not an issue.The only issue is in understanding both aspects of the Spirit. The One as our indwelling LIfe and the other as our clothing, our mantle, for the accomplishing of the work of the gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ.The Fact is, Christ is ressurected and we have "Life in His Name" and Christ is ascended and we have the "Power of the Spirit from on High. We need both and we have both.The intrinsic significance is in realizing the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. IN 1 cor 15:45 we are told that in resurrection Christ, "became a Life Giving Spirit". Only through going through the Process of crucifixion and resurrection is Christ able now to "breath Himself into us as the Life Giving Spirit". The Spirit who in John 7 "Was not yet because Christ was not yet glorified", when Christ was resurrected, "Was" because Christ was glorified.When Christ was among the Diciples He could be with them but not in them. But now having gone away to the Cross and death, He has now returned to them as the Living Resurrected Christ and now as He promised, "He is with you and shall be in you". That is, He was among them as Jesus in the flesh. But now He is breathed into them as the Life Giving Spirit. Paul said, "though we have known Christ according to the flesh, we know Him thus no longer".2 Corinthians 3:17 says, "And the Lord is the Spirit". And vs:18 says, "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit"This distinction is also seen in the Lord Himself. He was concieved by the Holy Spirit and obviously the Spirit was always within Him, But at His baptism the Spirit decended upon Him for the work of His ministry. In the Same way the Spirit was breathed into His diciples as their indwelling Life in John 20:21 for their New Birth, and the Spirit was poured out upon them 50 days later for the work of the New Testament Ministry.Graftedbranch

I understand this verse to mean that until Christ had returned to heaven, the Holy Spirit was not available to be poured out.Brother, These are good points. I did not mean to suggest that anyone here was deficient in preaching the New Birth. Rather I spoke of some circles who emphasis the Gifts and miricals and works of power to the neglect of Christ as our indwelling inner Life. If John 20:21 were not in the Bible it would be much simpler. We would just take all the promises that Jesus Made in John 7 and John 14-16 concerning the Spirit as our indwelling Life and lump them in with "the Promise of the Father" and the day of Pentecost.But John 20 does not allow this. Some who are determined to cleave to their view that it all happened at pentecost have demonstrated various ways of explaiing this verse such as "a pledge". But there is nothing in the text to suggest such a thing but the plain text offers up the conclusion that Christ breathed to them the Holy Spirit as He said and they recieved the Holy Spirit just as He said.Just as in Genesis 2 God breathed into Adam the breath of life, So here the Resurrected Christ has "breathed into them the Eternal Life".I have no problem with seeing two events. One inward, the other outward. In every case in reference to the promise of Pentecost it is said, "upon, clothed with, baptised (immersed into), etc. all words which indicate something external or an envoronment. Like being immersed in water. Or having the Spirit poured out upon you. But the promise of John 14 is different. It says, "He shall be in you". In none of the references to the Spirit in John 14 is the words "upon, clothed with, or poured out upon" used. Rather John in his gospel uses words such as "whoso shall drink of the water I shall give Him". And "He who beieves into Me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water", and "He who eats me shall live because of Me." All phrases which speak of the inner life and inner indwelling of the Spirit. They imply a taking in, a recieveing, a drinking, an eating. And these are related to Life (by LIfe I mean the eternal Life of God), and not power for service or doing miricals. This is significant.In fact both the gospel of John and his epistles emphasis the eternal Life, the new birth, the fellowship of the Divine Life, Living Water, Christ as our food and drink, and all things related to the inner Life. This is John's burden.I suggest the Scriptures present a broader picture than our common theologies allow for. But we must take the Word and hold our theological constructs and our dearly held concepts up to It's light and not the other way around.Graftedbranch

Sis wrote:Please correct me if I've misunderstood you. You are saying that Tozer believed Kind David had been born again? I transcribed this from a sermon found on SI. "The man God finds, elects and saves, and gives of His illumination of His Spirit, is not necessarily morally better than the other. I don’t think Jacob was morally better than Esau at all. And I don’t think David was morally better than Saul.I don’t know about Abel and Cain they had the same parents, they had no heredity at all. There were no lines that went back to anywhere, you know they started from scratch. Their parents were the same two people. And their parents had no parents. So they had nothing to inherit. They were two people that did not inherit anything. Except directly from their parents. So they must have been very much alike. But there had happen something to them inside of them and that was what mattered. One of them inside of him was an unregenerate man and his spirit was the spirit of the world. The other man somehow, by some mystery of God, had found the new birth, and that inside of him was the Spirit of God. And so they were sore points one with the other. They couldn’t get along. And yet I don’t think that Abel ever quarreled with Cain. But Abel’s offering was accepted, and Cain said, “That bigot I’ll get him.” He wouldn’t engage him in dialogue, He, he says that he knows God. He says when he offers a lamb God accepts a lamb, and I don’t like that. And so he took him out and killed him. They were two brothers and yet they were two spirits never the less. Contrary spirits, contrary one to the other. Now who are these, who are these, who is this Abel, who is this Jacob, who is eh, eh, David. Who are these? That in the midst of a fallen world, managed somehow to get through. They, they that are touched and ?????? sent. When God lays His hand upon a man, And God calls a man until they hear. And God speaks and rouses them and they wake. And God enlightens them. And God moves upon them. This, this makes a Christian…. He hears that God is calling him. And so that, that touch of God comes on him. He hears that call. My sheep hear My voice. My sheep know My voice. And they follow Me. But the stranger they do not hear. Blessed are they for they shall find mercy said Jesus. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven…."Here is the sermon in full:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=303In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:I've been thinking about the scripture you quoted on p10 and I recognise the prayers in Psalm 119 as being very similar to what you or I might pray. But isn't that just it? When we begin to seek God, we bring an Old Covenant mindset to our thinking about Him. We can't help that, because we have guilt and are growing more and more aware of our sins and sinfulness. 29 Remove from me the way of lying,And grant me Your law graciously. Do you think God answered his prayer? If so how would God go about dispensing His grace on David?In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:And under the Old Covenant, men and women knew they could not rid themselves of sin. They had to sacrifice.There are two pictures that Scripture portrays of the nation of Israel. One picture speaks of many who did not mix faith with the gospel, and the second group, the remnant did believe the gospel. Thoughtout the OT we are given examples of the broad road people and the narrow road people. Hos. 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD;\tFor He has torn, but He will heal us;\tHe has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 \tAfter two days He will revive us;\tOn the third day He will raise us up,\tThat we may live in His sight. 3 \tLet us know,\tLet us pursue the knowledge of the LORD.\tHis going forth is established as the morning;\tHe will come to us like the rain,\tLike the latter and former rain to the earth. 4 \t“O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?\tO Judah, what shall I do to you?\tFor your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,\tAnd like the early dew it goes away. 5 \tTherefore I have hewn them by the prophets,\tI have slain them by the words of My mouth;\tAnd your judgments are like light that goes forth. 6 \tFor I desire mercy and not sacrifice,\tAnd the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. 7 \t“But like men they transgressed the covenant;\tThere they dealt treacherously with Me. 8 \tGilead is a city of evildoers\tAnd defiled with blood. 9 \tAs bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,\tSo the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;\tSurely they commit lewdness. 10 \tI have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel:\tThere is the harlotry of Ephraim;\tIsrael is defiled. 11 \tAlso, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you,\tWhen I return the captives of My people. 6 \tFor I desire mercy and not sacrifice,\tAnd the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.How does knowledge of God satisfy the law? Jesus said:John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.Throughout the OT God required that His people know Him. Those who lacked understanding were judged unfaithful and guilty of spiritual harlotry.In ChristJeff

Graftedbranch wrote:John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."This is the work of Christ before incarnation. He was with God and Was God.Have you ever wondered why God appointed Melchezedec High Priest? What was Melchezedec's work? In ChristJeff

Have you ever wondered why God appointed Melchezedec High Priest? What was Melchezedec's work? Not much is said of him. He is refered to in Hebrews as a type of Christ. Christ is said to be a high priest after the order of Melchezedec. And the Type is brought out in the fact that there is no mention of Melchezedec origins as a type of Christ, who is eternal and has no beginning or end of days. And also his supperiority over the Aronic priesthood because Aron was in Abraham's loins and Abraham offered tithes to Melchezedec.Was Melchezedec Christ? Possibly. The Scritpure does not say he was. It only says Christ is a priest "after the order of Melchezedec".But there are "Christophonies" in the Old Testament. The "Angel of the Lord who appeared to Joshuah was a "Christophonie".I did not mean to imply that Creation is the only work Christ did before His incarnation. But that He acted as God. Everything the Triune God ever does or has done is from the Father, through the Son and by the Holy Spirit. Even Creation (Genesis 1).We also have God appearing in human form to Abraham. But this does not imply that Christ had humanity, Just the ability to assume human form as He did with Abraham.To have humanity, Christ had to be born into it.John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.Romans 1:3,4 Concerning His son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the Dead."

One of them inside of him was an unregenerate man and his spirit was the spirit of the world. The other man somehow, by some mystery of God, had found the new birth, and that inside of him was the Spirit of God.I think brother Tozer is overemphasising this. I don't know his view on this. Surely the Spirit was upon some in the Old Testament in a way that He was not upon others. And He worked in them and there was a conversion and experience of the Spirit within them. As David prayed, "take not your Holy Spirit from me". But in the saying of this there is the intimation that there was the possibility of His departing. Something of which the New Testament is unfamiliar. The Lord Jesus said, "And He shall be with you forever".Christ had to go through the economical processes of incarnation, human living, crucifixion and resurrection as the "Life Giving Spirit" (1 Cor 15:45) to be able to impart Himself into us as the "Spirit of Jesus Christ." The Spirit of Jesus implies his humanity. The Spirit as the "Spirit of Jesus Christ" was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified in John 7. And this is the testimony, that God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the Life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life (1 John 5:11,12)Graftedbranch

The intrinsic significance is in realizing the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. IN 1 cor 15:45 we are told that in resurrection Christ, "became a Life Giving Spirit". Only through going through the Process of crucifixion and resurrection is Christ able now to "breath Himself into us as the Life Giving Spirit". The Spirit who in John 7 "Was not yet because Christ was not yet glorified", when Christ was resurrected, "Was" because Christ was glorified.Agreeing with what does end up being a point of squabbling, because ultimately it has happened... Just wondering if sizing these two subsets together have any relevance:Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. At what point was He glorified? It just seems difficult to try and force the issue that His breathing on them was all that is being extrapolated, that a necessity has to be made of distinguishing this into such clean lines.There are many other verses that come to mind that do not seem to fit this so neatly and, well, I am back to that mystery thing again...Act 8:14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Act 8:15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: Act 8:16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Just as mysterious and interesting is in other discussions we have had in regards to personal testimony. Some very 'instantaneously', date's, time and places, others with a backward glance, knowing at some point a transaction must have taken place but without recollection to an 'event' even. Something about this verse that is telling;Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Just a small point Mike, but if you will notice in your Bible in this verse, the word, not yet "Given" is in italics. That is it means it is not in the origional but believed to be implied.The Actual Greek wording is "for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."I like Andrew Murray's word on this in "The Holy Spirit""The glorifying of Jesus and the streaming forth of His Spirit are intimately connected; in vital organic union the two are inseparably linked.. If we would have, not only the Spirit of God, but this Spirit of Christ, which 'was not yet,'but now is, the Spirit of the glorified Jesus, it is specially with the glorified Jesus we must believingly deal.We have the most intense personal interest in knowing and understanding what it means that Jesus is glorified, that human nature shares the life and glory of God, that the Spirit was not yet, as long as Jesus was not glorified. And that not only because we are one day to see Him in His glory, and to be with Him in it. No, but even now, day by day, we are to live in it. The Holy Spirit is able to be to us just as much as we are willing to have of Him, and of the life of the glorified Lord.From His nature, as it was glorified in the resurrection and ascension, His Spirit came forth as the Spirit of His human life, glorified into the union with the Divine, to make us partakers of all that He had personally wrought out and acquired, of Himself and His glorified life.And in virtue of His having perfected in Himself a new holy human nature on our behalf, He could now communicate what previously had no existence,-a life at once human and Divine. From henceforth the Spirit, just as He was the personal Divine life, could also become the personal life of men. Even as the Spirit is the personal life principle in God Himself, so He can be it in the child of God: the Spirit of God's Son can now be the Spirit that cries in our heart, Abba, Father. Of this Spirit it is most fully true, 'The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."Exerpts from, The Spirit of Christ by Andrew MurrayGraftedbranch

Hi Grafted Branch,We meet again. The segment you have quoted for Andrew Murray, [His statue is in our town], struck such a vital chord with me. I had to look them up and post them.For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Rom 8:15 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal 4:6I am not entirely sure how this post has gone, or if it has developed from the opening post to something profound, but I shall once again have to do some serious reading, here and where Dorcas is pointing.:-P

Brother GB wrote:thing the Triune God ever does or has done is from the Father, through the Son and by the Holy Spirit. Even Creation (Genesis 1).So does the NT Scriptures explain the mystery that has always existed and always operated to bring grace necessary for salvation of all men?The priesthood of The Order of Melchizedek had a function ordained by God. This function is not like the Aaronic priesthood according to Scripture it is something more. Why did God provide this Order of Priesthood prior to the Law of Moses given on Mount Sinai?In ChristJeff

Sister Dorcas;You might also wade through this threadhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4949&forum=36&238In ChristJeff

So does the NT Scriptures explain the mystery that has always existed and always operated to bring grace necessary for salvation of all men?Ephesians 3:8,9 To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the Gospel and to enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughout the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things.."The Mystery "Hid from the ages but now has been revealed, Is God's economy. That is God's Eternal purpose to despense Himself into man to be His very Life and nature, to make us sons of God and to be His expression on the Earth.This is why he created man in His image and likeness. This was the purpose of the Tree of LIfe in the Garden as opposed to the tree of the knowlege of good and evil which generatred independant fallen men, separated from the life of God. God created all the animals "after their kind" but He created man to be "after God's Kind". God's purpose from the beginning in creating us was to have in us many sons with His life and nature to be His expression on the earth, to deal with His enemy and to exercies His dominion on the earth.Adam was created by God but Adam never had the Divine Life within him. He never ate of the Tree of Life which signifies the Life of God in Christ. Adam was a creature of God in the image of God and Likeness of God but without the indwelling Life of God. Adam was a created being but not a son of God. He did not have God's Life. He needed to partake of the Tree of Life to recieve the Life of God to be a child of God. After the fall he was barred from the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:22-24)The Mystery hid from the ages was hidden because of man's fallen condition. God had to go through the entire plan of redemption in Christ to bring man back to His origional purpose which has never changed. He went through the entire econnomy of the Old Testament to reveal His purpose in shadows, in types, in prophecies,and in figures (Hebrews 1:1-3). But in the fullness of time, the shadows were done away with and the Reality has come and the Mystery has been revealed.What we have at the end of the Bible is the completion and fulfillment of God's eternal purpose. That is the New Jeruselem, which is composed of all the redeemed from all the ages who are constituted with the Life and nature of God and are His expression, and manifest His glory in the new earth for all eternity.The New Jeruselem is the Wife of the Lamb (Rev. 21:9) and the dwelling place of God. She is to Christ a Wife and counterpart fully constituted with His Life (the River of the Water of Life) and the Gold of the Divine Nature (The city was of pure Gold, transparent as glass), as Eve was formed of the substance of Adam (a type of Christ and the Church - Ephesians 5:32). And to the Father it is the City of God, the dwelling place of God and bears the Glory of God.Graftedbranch

Graftedbranch,Do you know Warren Litzman?In Christ: Phillip

Brother GB wrote:Adam was created by God but Adam never had the Divine Life within him. He never ate of the Tree of Life which signifies the Life of God in Christ. Adam was a creature of God in the image of God and Likeness of God but without the indwelling Life of God. Adam was a created being but not a son of God. He did not have God's Life. He needed to partake of the Tree of Life to recieve the Life of God to be a child of God. After the fall he was barred from the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:22-24)I do not believe as you. Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of one tree only. Where in Scripture do you find that Adam before the fall, was forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life? He went through the entire econnomy of the Old Testament to reveal His purpose in shadows, in types, in prophecies,and in figures (Hebrews 1:1-3). But in the fullness of time, the shadows were done away with and the Reality has come and the Mystery has been revealed.Job 1925 \tFor I know that my Redeemer lives,\tAnd He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 \tAnd after my skin is destroyed, this I know,\tThat in my flesh I shall see God, 27 \tWhom I shall see for myself,\tAnd my eyes shall behold, and not another.\tHow my heart yearns within me! For Job, his Redeemer is real. Who is his Redeemer?In ChristJeff

I do not believe as you. Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of one tree only. Where in Scripture do you find that Adam before the fall, was forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life?Brother, if you read what you quoted me as saying it says,:He did not have God's Life. He needed to partake of the Tree of Life to recieve the Life of God to be a child of God. After the fall he was barred from the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:22-24)Notice this says "after the fall He was barred" and Genesis 3:22-24 is quoted which is after the fall. Prior to the fall God said, "of every tree in the Garden you may eat freely, but of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil you shall not eat of it..."I nowhere suggested that Adam was forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life before the fall. In fact the whole point was that God intended Adam to eat of the Tree of Life in order to recieve His life and to be a child of God with HIs indwelling Life and Nature. The tragic fact is Adam failed to eat of the Tree of Life. If he had he would have had God's life within him and he would not have fallen to Satan's temptation and would not have eaten of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. Gods provision for Adam was the Tree of Life. And God's provision for us today is also the Tree of Life which is just Christ Himself who is, "the Way, the truth, and the Life" and "In Him was Life and this Life was the Light of men".Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:If he had he would have had God's life within him and he would not have fallen to Satan's temptation and would not have eaten of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil.This is where our differences are. I believe Adam before the fall did have God's life in him. You see the Scriptures teach that all are given a choice to obey or disobey. What Scriptures teach is that man is able to refuse God's grace. Just like when Paul teaches in Romans 8:Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Do you hear what Scripture says?In ChristJeff

Adam in the garden had the breath of live in him, but he did not have a nature or life force of diety. That is why there was two trees to choose from. The life of God in the tree of Life which is Christ's nature of the Father, or the tree of the knowledge of God and evil which is satan's nature and life force of diety which Adam chose and became the first Adam was just a life giving soul, that was ruled by the nature of his choice, which was of his father the devil, who was a created being also, that is why Adam so agreed with satan to his lies. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. To get to the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus it takes the Word, the living Word, Jesus Christ's Spirit to exchange satan's rule of the flesh soul to the parting of the soul and spirit and even to the body that we might have the new life force and nature which is Christ Jesus born again in the new creation race of people which are now Christ-Ones. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Now we are saved in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ, we are being saved by the Holy Spirit who works in our soulish part which is our mind teaching us this Christ that is in us, and we will be saved on resurrection morning when we get our new bodies, just like the Body of Jesus Christ that He has now. Philippians 3:15-21 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: >>>>Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

This is where our differences are. I believe Adam before the fall did have God's life in him. You see the Scriptures teach that all are given a choice to obey or disobey. What Scriptures teach is that man is able to refuse God's grace. Just like when Paul teaches in Romans 8:Well brother, God's Life is His Eternal Life. It is God Himself. Adam had a human spirit but He did not have the indwelling Spirit of God. God gave him a choice. He chose to go the way of independance. That is the record of Genesis 3. Not my opinion.There is no record of Adam's eating of the Tree of Life. And in the New Testament we are shown that Christ is the reality of the Tree of Life. "in Him was LIfe, and this Life is the light of men"And Christ said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in yourself."And also, "He who eats Me shall live because of Me"Christ is the Tree of Life, He is the "Vine tree" and that the Tree of Life is a "Vine Tree is seen in Revelation because it grows on both sides of the River of the water of Life which is the Spirit.Graftedbranch

Zech. 3:8 \t“Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,\tYou and your companions who sit before you,\tFor they are a wondrous sign;\tFor behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. Zech. 6:12 Then speak to him, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:\t‘Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!\tFrom His place He shall branch out,\tAnd He shall build the temple of the LORD; Christ is the Tree of Life, He is the "Vine tree" and that the Tree of Life is a "Vine Tree is seen in Revelation because it grows on both sides of the River of the water of Life which is the Spirit.Who is the Branch? And to whom do these Scriptures apply?In ChristJeff

Who is the Branch? And to whom do these Scriptures apply?Not sure the point of this. but Christ said, "I am the vine and you are the branches."But without getting too far off point. Christ is the Tree of Life. "In Him was Life"John 5 says, God has given us eternal Life, this life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the Life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life.Eternal Life is not an everlasting existance but rather Eternal Life is God's Life which is eternal in nature. To have eternal Life is to have God's Life. It is to have God within us as Eternal Life.The Tree of Life in Genesis 2 signifies God's Eternal Life of which Adam never partook. The Tree of the Knowlege of good and evil signifies the fallen satanic independant life devoid of God's Life.Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:But without getting too far off point. Christ is the Tree of Life. "In Him was Life"Job 33:30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life. Is this the Light you are pointing to?In ChristJeff

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,The Life I am refereing to is God's Life. And this Life is in His Son, Jesus Christ who "is the Life". If we have the Son of God we have the eternal Life of God which is in His Son. If we do not have the Son of God we do not have the Life.John said in His gospel, "These things I write to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal Life (my paraphrase).Graftedbranch

Brother GBIs this the Life you speak of?John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”Is this same Life spoken of in Job? Job 33:30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.Is this same Life spoken of in Psalm 36 an example of the Life you speak of?Psa. 36:9 \tFor with You is the fountain of life;\tIn Your light we see light. In ChristJeff

Is this same Life spoken of in Psalm 36 an example of the Life you speak of?Brother Jeff, I would have to say it is. in in Psalm 36 we see a wonderful picture of the Triune God.They are saturated with the Fatness of Your House, and You cause them to drink of the Rivers of your pleasures, For with you is the Fountian of LIfe.The Fatness of His house speaks of Christ as the offerings, the River of His pleasures speaks of The Spirit as the river of the Water of Life, and the Fountian of Life Speaks of the Father as the Source of Life.In this verse we have the Triune God with the Father as the Source, the Son as the Fatness, and the Spirit as the River of His pleasures.Graftedbranch

Here is another wonderful view of Christ in the OT. How is this a sign for King Ahaz?Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Who is this Child that eats curds and honey? In ChristJeff

Here is another Scripture which in some men's minds conflicts with dispensational theology. Here is another chance to believe or not to believe what is says. Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. There is no indication that the dwelling of the Spirit in John was temporary. How does this Scripture speak to your heart? Do you reject it based on man's doctrine or do you submit and search the Scriptures in a new way because you believe?How does this Scritpure show you the intents of your heart?In ChristJeff

Your title states Born again by what means, then you skip to Lukes account of John the Baptist conception and birth. I do not see a connection can you please connect the dots or clarify it for me please?

Does the Holy Spirit deal with man the same as He did before Pentecost as He does after Pentecost? Is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ the same manifestation of God? Is the Holy Spirit the Incorruptable Seed. Who died on the Cross, was it Jesus Christ the Son of God or the Holy Spirit of God? Are the jobs attributed to the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ the same.Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Is this The Holy Spirit in you the Hope of Glory?Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Were you Crucified With the Holy Spirit or Christ? Do we live by the Faith of the Holy Spirit or the Son of God. Is "Himself" the Holy Spirit?Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Was the Holy Spirit "The Holy Thing" that would be born of Mary?The reason for all these questions is, we must separate the work that is done by each Person of the God Head, They are One God, but there is a certain accomplishment for The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, leading to "Born again of what", Christ is our new Life, that is sure when it comes to scripture, The Holy Spirit is our Teacher, that is sure from scripture also, and the Father is "Our Father Who art in Heaven, this is sure from scripture. If we don't place the Members of the God Head in their proper Jobs and what They as God in us do for our salvation we commingle and misuse the accomplishment of God's Plan. We misuse The Holy Spirit and make Him Christ or Make Them One and that takes away from the power and how They are used in our lives as Born Again Christians. When it is all over Christ will make Himself subject to the Father and God will be All in All. The Holy Spirit will not be needed on this earth and since Pentecost He is in us forever and the Father/Son will receive back to Himself the Holy Spirit and God will complete His Plan and He will be the only one we have to Love and deal with as our Father, which is God's intention from the beginning, He wanted son's in His House.There is a difference in a vessel being filled and if in drinking from it continuously needs to be filled, and the vessel having the unquenchable water as the vessel and in the vessel forever, no need to be filled anymore.In Christ: Phillip

Dear Phillip: I disagree with most of your reasons for asking the quesitons. That aside, if you ask over 8 questions in one posting, you should at least state your answers or position on each question first.Sincerely,macbug

macbug,Lose the haughtiness. There are 16 pages here to read through, if you are unfamiliar with the nature of how things develop in a particular posting you will be at a loss to begin dictating how things ought to be.

Brother Phillip wrote:Does the Holy Spirit deal with man the same as He did before Pentecost as He does after Pentecost? Is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ the same manifestation of God? Is the Holy Spirit the Incorruptable Seed. Who died on the Cross, was it Jesus Christ the Son of God or the Holy Spirit of God? Are the jobs attributed to the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ the same.What was God's purpose in revealing the High Priest Melchezedec to Abraham? What is the work of the Order of Melchizedec?Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Was this mystery among the Gentiles only for the Gentiles? I ask this question to point to how many use this Scripture.Is this The Holy Spirit in you the Hope of Glory?By what means does God reveal to you the Glory? How has the substance of your hope been changed, been renewed? Has our lives begun to live the parables of Scripture or have we chosen to remain captive to our old man? Was John the Baptist a captive to God or man?The reason for all these questions is, we must separate the work that is done by each Person of the God Head, They are One God, but there is a certain accomplishment for The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit,All was accomplished before the foundation of this world. The teachings of dispensational theology acknowledge the work of the Father and is blind to the work of the Son and the Spirit in the OT. Somehow we accept the doctrine of the Trinity yet we fail to want to search the Scriptures to see that this doctrine is really true. When one see the work of the High Priest Melchizedec and the work of the Holy Spirit creating faith in the OT saints one begins to realize how true the doctrine of the Trinity is.Just some thoughtsIn ChristJeff

Quote:Was this mystery among the Gentiles only for the Gentiles? I ask this question to point to how many use this Scripture.This mystery was among the Gentiles. Not for them alone, the Mystery Paul reveals is not for any specific race, color, nationality, creed, or religion. It is for Christians, Christ Ones. Paul was primarily revealing this mystery to the Gentile, that was his job specification, Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles, but he spread it to all that would hear with ear's to hear and eyes to see. He became Jewish to the Jews, under the law and those not under the law, to the weak he became weak: 1 Corinthians 9:22-23 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.This is the Gospel of Christ given by direct revelation from Himself to Paul and us. We are no longer Jew's or Gentiles'. We are Christians. They were first called Christians in Antioch. Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, To reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:Christ had never been revealed in any person before Paul, who was the first, I said, "revealed," not that He was not already there after His Ascention but no body knew it. That is why God chose Paul, one of the meanest men in the world who was killing Christians for the Jewish religion and was profiting in his endeavor. We can scream about the Old Testament and that Christ was there and it is certain that He was, but He was not Born Again in the Believer by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. This is not dispensationalism, this is the truth of the Word of God. Paul uses dispensations, just because he used the word are we not to believe him. 1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;The Word of God was waiting to be fulfilled from the foundation of the world to the revelation given to Paul, that we might know by this Gospel how we are to be judged.Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.We will be judged by this Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, not what we have done but by who we are in Christ, what we have allowed Him to do in us. I must decrease and He must increase Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.The truth of Christ in us: Phillip

I apologize I thought maybe this site would be different. It is not. You got your Romans vs. Protestants, liberal vs. conservative. Everyone quotes and quotes but very few communicate, good luck you can have it.

Brother Phillip:Luke 7:22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.Luke 9:6 So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere. Did Jesus preach a different Gospel than Paul? Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the Gospel that did not even speak of the death that He would die on the cross. Really what is the Gospel? Has it ever changed? In ChristJeff

Did Jesus preach a different Gospel than Paul? Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the Gospel that did not even speak of the death that He would die on the cross. Really what is the Gospel? Has it ever changed?Romans 1:1-4Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.Brother,Why do we have a New Testament? Why do we have the book of Romans? Why do we have the epistles? Why do we have the book of Hebrews?The Gospel of God is concerning His Son who was born of the Seed of David according to the flesh and designated the Son of God... out of the resurrection from the Dead.The Gospel is concerning Christ, incarnated into humanity, crucified for our sins and raised from the dead.The book of Romans is 'the Gospel of God'The diciples preached the "gospel of the Kingdom" which was at hand.Upon the Lord's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascention, with the outpoured Spirit the diciples preached Christ, crucified, and resurrected and salvation through faith in His Name.The Gospel includes the Kingdom, it's reality and it's comming manifestation.The Gospel is concerning Christ. Christ is the center, the element, and the content of the Gospel.Christ was the Kingdom of God in their midst. Now Christ is the Kingdom of God within His believers. In the comming Age Christ will reign along with His regenerated believers in the full manifestation of the Kingdom of God in the earth.There is one gospel with many facets but with only one center and focus. Christ. "We preach Christ as the gospel" - PaulGraftedbranch

Quote, RookieDid Jesus preach a different Gospel than Paul? Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the Gospel that did not even speak of the death that He would die on the cross. Really what is the Gospel? Has it ever changed? As Graftedbranch has said, not a different Gospel but Paul preached a fulfillment to the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.This is the Gospel that Christ preached to Israel.Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul preached a Gospel of the Kingdom of God in Heavenly places, where we are seated with Him.1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Israel would not have been seated in Heavenly places, they would have been seated with Him as King on this earth if they would have accepted Him as King ruling from David's throne. Since they rejected Him that part of the Gospel has been put off until the 1000 year reign of Christ from that throne of David in the new Jerusalem ruling over His earthly Kingdom with Israel preaching to the world that Christ is Lord and King and the birthed, born again children of God will be ruling with Him from our Father's House. These are resurrected priests of God and Christ.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.These are Israel, Kingdom priests on this earth.Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. In Christ: Phillip

Brother GB wrote:Why do we have a New Testament? Why do we have the book of Romans? Why do we have the epistles? Why do we have the book of Hebrews?To reveal the mystery that existed since the foundation of the world, that Jesus Christ, High Priest, of the Order of Melchezidec, saves those who live by faith. The revealation of this mystery did not stop God from saving the OT saints, the NT just reveals what was once hidden but always present in the lives of those who were saved by grace through faith. Romans 11: 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Here Paul teaches that there were 7000 saved by grace during the time of Elijah. Not by works but by grace, those who listen to God and did not bow their knee to Baal. Now we know that carnal man has not the ability to reject Satan's ways that is unless God provide the grace necessary. This is the Gospel that Jesus teaches man.Matthew 5:3 \t“Blessed are the poor in spirit,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 \tBlessed are those who mourn,\t\tFor they shall be comforted.5 \tBlessed are the meek,\t\tFor they shall inherit the earth.6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.7 \tBlessed are the merciful,\t\tFor they shall obtain mercy.8 \tBlessed are the pure in heart,\t\tFor they shall see God.9 \tBlessed are the peacemakers,\t\tFor they shall be called sons of God.10 \tBlessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.Matt. 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.Matt. 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.All the elements of a life lived in faith according to the provisions of the Holy Spirit are the evidence that Jesus teaches in the Beatitudes. If you read the OT carefully you will find the evidence of the Beatitudes in the lives of those who lived by faith. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Israel would not have been seated in Heavenly places, they would have been seated with Him as King on this earth if they would have accepted Him as King ruling from David's throne.What was Abraham's view of this? Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. Abraham's hope was revealed to him by God in that he would live in the heavenly country. In ChristJeff

""Abraham's hope was revealed to him by God in that he would live in the heavenly country."" Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Only Christ is the Promise, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:18-20 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.This is the beginning.Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Was this preached to Abraham? They only sought a Heavenly home. They did not seek Christ and understand that Christ would be Born Again in them as we do.In Christ: Phillip

""Are you saying you don't see yourself as a priest of the kingdom..... right now?""No, I was separating the priest's of this earth which is Old Testament saints that will rule in the millennium on this earth, from the Kingdom of Priest's that rule with Christ in the Fathers House, the Body of Christ. Ye must be born again, why won't everybody understand what Jesus was saying. We have not excuse to ask the question as Nicodemus did, "John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Nicodemus did not have any idea what this birth was and either did Abraham. God has provided for His own be it the Church the Body of Christ or Israel in the millennium on this earth or The Body of Christ in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and all else at the Great White Throne Judgment after the millennium when all that are left will be judged. We must rightly divide the Word and not commingle Law and Grace, or old testament works salvation with new testament faith salvation. There is a difference of those that are in Christ and those that looked forward to the promises of God to Israel and old testament saints who have not Christ in them. They will worship Him in the New Jerusalem in the millennium. We worship Him now in our birthed new life with Him in us. All we have to do is kneel and close our eyes and we are in complete fellowship with Jesus Christ, He is in us and we need nothing else to bring us into His presence and we can crawl up in the Father's Lap and come boldly to the throne of Grace, for our Daddy will not in any way cast us out. Christ is our life and He has made us one with Himself and our Father. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.According to Paul's teachings in Scripture when will the OT saints and the NT saints be made perfect?Was this preached to Abraham? They only sought a Heavenly home. They did not seek Christ and understand that Christ would be Born Again in them as we do.John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”3 \t“Blessed are the poor in spirit,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 \tBlessed are those who mourn,\t\tFor they shall be comforted.5 \tBlessed are the meek,\t\tFor they shall inherit the earth.6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.7 \tBlessed are the merciful,\t\tFor they shall obtain mercy.8 \tBlessed are the pure in heart,\t\tFor they shall see God.9 \tBlessed are the peacemakers,\t\tFor they shall be called sons of God.10 \tBlessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.Is it possible to be a disciple of Christ and not have the Holy Spirit? 6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.What is it that fills those who hunger and thirst for righteousness? Who is Melchizedec? What was His priestly duties? It is said that He was both King of righteousness and peace and that Abraham gave a tithe to Him.In ChristJeff

What really is the Good News? What fruit is experienced by those who know the Eternal Life and the Father?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1140&forum=36&43In ChristJeff

Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Christ. If Abraham knew that Christ would be in him and All Israel knew that Christ would be born again in them, why did God choose Paul to bring this mystery, which you say Abraham already knew, then Paul was just someone that God really did not need because All Israel knew this mystery. Why send Paul?Why is there going to be a new Jerusalem with Christ on the Throne of David, if all Israel already knows that Christ is their Savior and King and they are already perfect in Christ. Why not just skip all the promises God made to Israel if they are already fulfilled in Christ?All we need is a new heaven and new earth, no millennium no, Judgment Seat of Christ, no Great White Throne Judgment, no promises to Israel, God can just skip all the generalities and go straight to National Israel and just put them together in one basket, and we all live happily ever after.If we are all perfect in Christ there is no reason for us to stay here and why does not God just take all of us now? Really if you look at it that way Christ did not have to go to the Cross. I really don't think God's perfect Plan that has been worked out, the exact termination as He pleases, is going to be what we choose to believe but I really think that it is going to be His way. Paul tries to give us the truth about Christ in us The Hope of Glory, and all we do is try to make Israel and works the means we are seated already in Heavenly Places with Christ, only because we believed. We don't need Paul, we just need to pull Israel back into the Picture and God will be very pleased with us. Uh, Oh, I forgot these scriptures. These are for me. Galatians 1:6-17 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.Three years with Christ wasted?Sorry, I am not trying to pervert you. If this is too much, forgive me, I am still renewing my mind to the Mind of Christ, and will always be. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Christ. If Abraham knew that Christ would be in him and All Israel knew that Christ would be born again in them, why did God choose Paul to bring this mystery, which you say Abraham already knew, then Paul was just someone that God really did not need because All Israel knew this mystery. Why send Paul?The Scriptures of which you speak, speak of the grace that would come to the gentiles at a time when an unfaithful generation of Israel would be broken off the tree. As you read through the OT you will find the work of Christ in those who lived by faith. The substance of their faith was rooted in the same vine that our faith finds it's nourishment.Why is there going to be a new Jerusalem with Christ on the Throne of David, if all Israel already knows that Christ is their Savior and King and they are already perfect in Christ. Why not just skip all the promises God made to Israel if they are already fulfilled in Christ?Not all Israel knew God through Christ. Only by grace through faith does one come to know God and the Lord of Hosts. Paul teaches very clearly about the work of Christ. Romans 5: 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. In these Scriptures Paul teaches that we are reconciled by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Yet much more than this, "we shall be save by His life." I do not seek to diminish His loving sacrifice for a sinner like me. But much more I find victory in the Life that He shares with me. It is the Life that saves. This Life is the Lord of Hosts in which the OT Scriptures has much to say. Galatians 1:6-17 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: This grace that Paul speaks of in Galatians is the same that he speaks of in the generation of Elijah.Romans 11 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. In ChristJeff

Romans 11:22-25 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.All that believe will be grafted in Jews' or Gentile. Were they grafted in while they were still the tree? I don't think so, that is impossible. For in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. Are we the Christ ones jealous of Israel? No, no a thousand times no, are they jealous? If not why are they trying to get the promises in any other way but Christ. They cannot, and will not until God is ready to save all Israel.Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.For the fathers' sakes. Comp. De 10:15. He had chosen their fathers to be his peculiar people. He had made many promises to Abraham respecting his seed, and extended these promises to his remotest posterity. Though salvation is by grace, and not from human merit, yet God has respect to his covenant made with the fathers, and will not forget his promises. It is not on account of any merit of the fathers or of ancient saints, but solely because God had made a covenant with them; and this purpose of election would be manifest to their children in the latest times. As those contemplated in the covenant made with Abraham, God retained for them feelings of peculiar interest; and designed their recovery to himself. It is clear here that the word election does not refer to external privileges; for Paul is not teaching the doctrine that they shall be restored to the external privileges of Jews, but that they shall be truly converted to God. Yet this should not be abused by others to lead them to security in sin. No man has any security of happiness, and of the favour of God, but he who complies with the terms of his mercy. His command is explicit, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou will be saved, nor can there be safety except in entire compliance with the terms on which he is willing to bestow eternal life. I will birth My Son in you, hear ye Him.I praise God for Israel, because Christ was brought through them to the Born Again. Not because of them but because of God and these are the gifts and calling of God which He will not go back on His Promise. Israel a special called out people of God through whom God would bring a Son that would save all that are given to Him by the Father.But now the Glory of God is in Christ and Christ is in us and all that believe now are in Christ which is truly the Hope of Glory.Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:All that believe will be grafted in Jews' or Gentile. Were they grafted in while they were still the tree? I don't think so, that is impossible.Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Scripture teaches that the gentiles, the wild olive branch was grafted into the holy root. These wild branches were grafted in among them,What holy branches were the wild branches grafted in among?In ChristJeff

for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? We were not by nature grafted into the tree. They by nature were the tree and branches cut off. Even they will be grafted back in and we are grafted into the same tree. There is only one tree, that tree is Christ by Nature of the Father. The Tree of Life which is Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.To be a Jew inwardly is the same for a Christian. It is not the outward appearance of religious piety or works lest any should boast. It is the inward regeneration of the heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If Christ is not all and in all that believe, there is no salvation that the Father can give, even by Grace or Faith. It must be of God who has made Christ in us our righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and redemption. There is no other branch that the Father can accept and graft into Christ except the branch which is Christ and one with Him, Born Again by His Incorruptable Seed, which is Christ only. There is only one way to the Tree and that is by the Tree Himself.In Christ: Phillip

John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.Is the Vine different from the Olive Tree? The ancient tree of old testament is the stock that Israel was grown from. Still yet, who is the Root? Israel may be the root and branches but where did the seed come from. If God had not chosen Abraham to be the barer of the Seed that all nations would come under in its defeat of sin and death, there would be no tree or branches or grafted in or regrafted in branches at all. The Tree is Holy because God chose the seed by which it would grow. Why were the branches broken off, because the Church was to be grafted in? No, the branches were broken off because of unbelief. There are three great scandals in the history of the religious history of the Church, be it Jewish or Christian. 1. The killing of its own Prophets and Christ Himself by the Jewish nation. The horror of the Roman inquisition and the Hatred of the Jews by so called Christians. There is another and that is rejoice that Israel has been cut off, and we Christians see ourselves as better than They were. God will not be mocked, Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. The Church has a bad way of either trying to get into heaven on the coat tails of Israel or instead of because we are better.Now comes the Vine which is different from the Olive Tree and how it deals with Jew and Gentile. The Vine does not differentiate between the two, for all are either in the Vine or are not. If we abide in the Vine, we abide in Christ. This is completely different from the Olive Tree. If you try to commingle the two you miss the Salvation of Christ and re-enter the the Old Testament way of Salvation which is by works and the Law kept to make one's self approved unto God, which was a complete failure on man's part. With Christ in us, it now depends upon Him and the Power of the Holy Spirit in bring God's children to their place in His House. Again we must rightly divide the Word of Truth that we might be approved, rightly dividing the Word of God. We are in a complete new Testament. Which fulfills the Word of God.Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Do we see the tree that Israel was and where the Vine gets its origin. The Tree is not the same as the Vine and cannot be grafted, for an olive branch will not take in its graft to a vine. An olive tree cannot produce grapes.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:This is completely different from the Olive Tree. If you try to commingle the two you miss the Salvation of Christ and re-enter the the Old Testament way of Salvation which is by works and the Law kept to make one's self approved unto God, which was a complete failure on man's part.There is no salvation according to the works of the Law. Never can a man enter into salvation by keeping the Law of Moses given on Mount Sinai. Scripture teaches that salvation comes only by grace through faith.Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ What covenant does this speak of? This oath that God made with them is given prior to the law given on Mount Sinai. What covenant existed 430 years before the Law given on Mount Sinai?In ChristJeff

Sister Dorcas quoted:The olive - going back to the Ark (Noah's) speaks of the end of God's wrath in a different way from the vine. The olive speaks of an outward peace - an anointing - of light to show the way - direction. (There must be a lot more, but, I'm not claiming expertise.... just drawing attention to a few obvious things.)Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said: 2 \t“Oh, that I were as in months past,\tAs in the days when God watched over me; 3 \tWhen His lamp shone upon my head,\tAnd when by His light I walked through darkness; 4 \tJust as I was in the days of my prime,\tWhen the friendly counsel of God was over my tent; 5 \tWhen the Almighty was yet with me,\tWhen my children were around me; 6 \tWhen my steps were bathed with cream,\tAnd the rock poured out rivers of oil for me! Zech. 4:1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?”So I said, “I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. 3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.” 4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, “What are these, my lord?” Zech. 4:5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?”And I said, “No, my lord.” Zech. 4:6 So he answered and said to me:\t“This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:\t‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’\tSays the LORD of hosts. 7 \t“Who are you, O great mountain?\tBefore Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!\tAnd he shall bring forth the capstone\tWith shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!” ’ ” Zech. 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 9 \t“The hands of Zerubbabel\tHave laid the foundation of this temple;\tHis hands shall also finish it.\tThen you will know\tThat the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 10 \tFor who has despised the day of small things?\tFor these seven rejoice to see\tThe plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.\tThey are the eyes of the LORD,\tWhich scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.” Zech. 4:11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” Zech. 4:13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”And I said, “No, my lord.” Zech. 4:14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.” Is. 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,\tAnd a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 \tThe Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,\tThe Spirit of wisdom and understanding,\tThe Spirit of counsel and might,\tThe Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. 3 \tHis delight is in the fear of the LORD,\tAnd He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,\tNor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 \tBut with righteousness He shall judge the poor,\tAnd decide with equity for the meek of the earth;\tHe shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,\tAnd with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 \tRighteousness shall be the belt of His loins,\tAnd faithfulness the belt of His waist. 6 \t“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,\tThe leopard shall lie down with the young goat,\tThe calf and the young lion and the fatling together;\tAnd a little child shall lead them. 7 \tThe cow and the bear shall graze;\tTheir young ones shall lie down together;\tAnd the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 \tThe nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,\tAnd the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. 9 \tThey shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,\tFor the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD\tAs the waters cover the sea. 10 \t“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,\tWho shall stand as a banner to the people;\tFor the Gentiles shall seek Him,\tAnd His resting place shall be glorious.” 11 \tIt shall come to pass in that day\tThat the Lord shall set His hand again the second time\tTo recover the remnant of His people who are left,\tFrom Assyria and Egypt,\tFrom Pathros and Cush,\tFrom Elam and Shinar,\tFrom Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 \tHe will set up a banner for the nations,\tAnd will assemble the outcasts of Israel,\tAnd gather together the dispersed of Judah\tFrom the four corners of the earth. 13 \tAlso the envy of Ephraim shall depart,\tAnd the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;\tEphraim shall not envy Judah,\tAnd Judah shall not harass Ephraim. 14 \tBut they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;\tTogether they shall plunder the people of the East;\tThey shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;\tAnd the people of Ammon shall obey them. 15 \tThe LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;\tWith His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,\tAnd strike it in the seven streams,\tAnd make men cross over dryshod. 16 \tThere will be a highway for the remnant of His people\tWho will be left from Assyria,\tAs it was for Israel\tIn the day that he came up from the land of Egypt. Oil comes from the rock at times in Scripture. Oil comes from the Olive branch in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is always in the middle of these pictures in Scripture. Psa. 80:1 \tGive ear, O Shepherd of Israel,\tYou who lead Joseph like a flock;\tYou who dwell between the cherubim, shine forth! 2 \tBefore Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh,\tStir up Your strength,\tAnd come and save us! 3 \tRestore us, O God;\tCause Your face to shine,\tAnd we shall be saved! 4 \tO LORD God of hosts,\tHow long will You be angry\tAgainst the prayer of Your people? 5 \tYou have fed them with the bread of tears,\tAnd given them tears to drink in great measure. 6 \tYou have made us a strife to our neighbors,\tAnd our enemies laugh among themselves. 7 \tRestore us, O God of hosts;\tCause Your face to shine,\tAnd we shall be saved! 8 \tYou have brought a vine out of Egypt;\tYou have cast out the nations, and planted it. 9 \tYou prepared room for it,\tAnd caused it to take deep root,\tAnd it filled the land. 10 \tThe hills were covered with its shadow,\tAnd the mighty cedars with its boughs. 11 \tShe sent out her boughs to the Sea,\tAnd her branches to the River. 12 \tWhy have You broken down her hedges,\tSo that all who pass by the way pluck her fruit?13 \tThe boar out of the woods uproots it,\tAnd the wild beast of the field devours it. 14 \tReturn, we beseech You, O God of hosts;\tLook down from heaven and see,\tAnd visit this vine15 \tAnd the vineyard which Your right hand has planted,\tAnd the branch that You made strong for Yourself. The Lord of Host is the Shepherd that this Psalm sings to. He is the Rock of their salvation. There is none other by which men can be saved. I too do not understand clearly what I see at this moment. Yet as time goes on just like for Daniel the dream becomes clearer. Those who remain in the vine become one with the vine.In ChristJeff

Zech. 3:6 Then the Angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:\t‘If you will walk in My ways,\tAnd if you will keep My command,\tThen you shall also judge My house,\tAnd likewise have charge of My courts;\tI will give you places to walk\tAmong these who stand here. 8 \t“Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,\tYou and your companions who sit before you,\tFor they are a wondrous sign;\tFor behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. 9 \tFor behold, the stone\tThat I have laid before Joshua:\tUpon the stone are seven eyes.\tBehold, I will engrave its inscription,’\tSays the LORD of hosts,\t“And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 \tIn that day,’ says the LORD of hosts,\t“Everyone will invite his neighbor\tUnder his vine and under his fig tree.’ ” AlsoZech. 6:9 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 10 “Receive the gift from the captives—from Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah, who have come from Babylon—and go the same day and enter the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 Then speak to him, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:\t‘Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!\tFrom His place He shall branch out,\tAnd He shall build the temple of the LORD; 13 \tYes, He shall build the temple of the LORD.\tHe shall bear the glory,\tAnd shall sit and rule on His throne;\tSo He shall be a priest on His throne,\tAnd the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’ Zech. 6:14 “Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.” In both of these sections of Scripture we find the Branch which speaks of Joshua the high priest but also look to what is given him.And shall sit and rule on His throne;\tSo He shall be a priest on His throne,\tAnd the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’ Now we know that only one can occupy both the throne and also function as the priest on His throne. This Scripture also speaks of those who the Lord has brought back from the captivity of Babylon and other places during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. Do you see that this Branch speaks of both Christ and Joshua? Do you see that this Branch is Holy?Now look to Romans 11:Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Here the branches are holy in verse 16. Some of the branches were broken off in verse 17. Then a wild olive branch was grafted in among them." So from this Scripture we know that the wild olive branch was added to other holy branches that were not broken off. I believe each one of these holy branches speaks of each generation of people who are saved by grace through faith. This is the promise that God spoke to Abraham. Genesis 17: 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. This promise is given to each generation. Those who live by faith will become the holy branch of their generation. Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. This covers the covenant that Paul teaches about in Galatians that was made to Abraham. Why does Paul speak of only two covenants, the everlasting covenant given to Abraham and the covenant given to Moses on Mount Sinai?In ChristJeff

What covenant does this speak of? Only the covenant with Israel.This oath that God made with them is given prior to the law given on Mount Sinai. What covenant existed 430 years before the Law given on Mount Sinai?Without the Law there was no sin, but the Law made sin exceedingly sinful. Sin abounded from the first command, thou shall not partake of the tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or you shall surely die. All Parish from one sin of one man, passed on to all mankind, all are saved because of the Blood of the second Man, Jesus Christ. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.Merge these two and you have the Law of Grace in Christ Jesus. First believe unto our birth as son's, then as son's we can obey His commandmentsIn Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Only the covenant with Israel.The Law of Grace was in place during the time when Joseph, Judah, Simeon, Levi, and all the other brothers and all their children lived in Egypt. What is that we find spoken of in Ezekiel? They disobeyed God. They would not give up their false worship. So God then gave them the Law of Moses. They would not listen to His voice, so He gave the the written Law. The Galatians experienced the same, listen to Paul warn them.Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The covenant made with Abraham is extended and present in all the generations that followed him. The 42 generations spoken of by Matthew preceding Christ were given the same access to enter into His rest. Please see that Paul makes no new revelation as to how one is saved. "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? God spoke to Abraham. God spoke to Joseph. God spoke to every generation that followed for 42 generations. What is it that creates the faith that saves? Hearing the word of God this is the point where faith finds it's beginning. In ChristJeff

Galatians 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Who is the Faith, when did Faith come? Before Christ came all were under the Law, even those that new it not. Faith for salvation was shut up until Christ would come and reveal it to those that would believe. That Faith is of Him, Through Him and by Him. There is no revelation of faith that is of God unless it is by The Faith Of Jesus Christ. All have faith, but none have the Faith of Jesus Christ unless it is given by the Father. My faith takes me to the store and gives me learned abilities to accomplish the buying of what I believe in to keep me alive and comfortable. Same faith to drive a car and get where I want to go. My faith will do all to give me life on this earth and be what I and others want me to be. I live on this earth by this faith which is given to all men. There is the faith of man and the Faith of God. It is different and to receive it we must believe in it. If we believe God about His Son, The Faith of Jesus Christ will be birthed in us.Then we can say we live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.By Christ that has been born again in the believer we can live and move and have our being in that Faith, The Faith of Jesus Christ. This Faith does not need to be reckoned to us as righteousness, because it is Righteousness in all the essence of God Himself in His Son. Please see the difference in what God has done in His Son and the Cross and new life in Christ. This is truly the Body of Christ His Church. We have no promises that will take place when we believe because the Life of Christ in you is the Hope of Glory. Not by anything that we did or do, our righteousness is now of Christ, not counted because I believed God about what He told me to do, but because He because I believe Him, He has put righteousness Himself in me and now my Faith is His Faith, this is a Christian.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Galatians 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Phillip, I don't remember which thread you posted your testimony of how you at first struggled for years trying to keep the law. And then one day something happened. Would you say that your experience parralleled the Scripture you cited above?In ChristJeff

Travail of Soul is the rebirth a very painful, agony filled, and violent, ugly repentance. There are tears, pains and sufferings, it is humble sincere spontaneous, honest and complete. It was no accident that Jesus used the term born again, back in those days, there was no medications, C-sections etc. It was dirty, painful and most of all VERY Loud with absolute no restraint what so ever everything came out so to speak. Then repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat until Jesus comes or He calls us home.

Getting back to the parable of the sower. Jesus identified this parable as the key that unlocks all the other parables. Mark 4:13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? What purpose does the incorruptible word of God serve?In ChristJeff

Cybercarbon wrote:Travail of Soul is the rebirth a very painful, agony filled, and violent, ugly repentance. There are tears, pains and sufferings, it is humble sincere spontaneous, honest and complete.The incorruptible word of God brings this to all who enter in. The parable of the sower highlights the work of the word of God in the hearts of those who would enter in. In ChristJeff

Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Here it says that God placed His word in the hearts of these individuals. It then says that Satan comes and takes the word out of their hearts.The Travail of the Soul is thus prevented. These things are spiritual and not of the flesh. What philosophies, what empty deceits might Satan use to prevent the Travail of the Soul so that one might enter into His rest?In ChristJeff

Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. I just wanted to again point to the promise of the New Covenant. Jer. 31: 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” It is God who places His law on the minds and hearts of His people. In Luke 8:12 we find that God has sowed His word in their hearts and Satan has come to steal what was sown in their hearts. We also see that there may be a difference in that the word of God is sown, but has the law of God taken root in the mind and heart? How does Satan steal that which was planted by God?How does this event impact the salvation of this individual?In ChristJeff

Sister Dorcas wrote:That said, it's the goodness of God which leads people to repentance. Repentance is not a punishment, it is simply the word we use to mean 'change of mind'I believe this last statement to be the focal point. Many talk about doubt as being the root that causes one to stumble. The ideas we hear today of unbelief seems to always focus on the beginning of one's repentance. Yet, I believe that Scripture points to unbelief that is rooted in choosing not to hear, not to submit to the "change of mind" that God is revealing to those who have the word of God in their heart. It is God's grace that proves to man that He is faithful. His mercy is continually present in the lives of those who have His word in their hearts. His grace revealed through the work of the Holy Spirit reveals the opportunity that He extends to us daily in the precept of repentance. In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:I'm sure there is a type of unbelief which represents a decision not to hear the word of truth, but, there must also remain with the unbeliever, the ability to begin listening to the word of truth, if so desired........ else how would preaching the gospel make any difference? In the sower of the seed parable all 4 groups have already received the gospel. All believed. But what happens in the lives of the first three groups? They do not continue on in repentance. This is the unbelief which prevents one from entering into His rest. God's voice is always ready to direct, yet in the first three groups what prevents the hearer of the word from entering into His rest? In ChristJeff

I was just listening to Jackie Pullinger talk about new converts. Well, she said that the first thing they do with these new converts is teach them to pray. No Bible at first. Rather, they teach them to have a genuine relationship with their creator first and foremost, so that they don't always need to pick through doctrine of what's "ok" or "not ok"- they already know.Would be cool to see more of that.Grace and Peace...

Sister Rebecca wrote:I didn't actually say that because I was caught off gaurd. Sometimes I really don't know what to say to people that say such things without offending them.Anyone have any suggestions?Jesus gave this command:Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,We often believe we obey the command by telling someone of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We ask them to pray along with us and then we go on about our own business. Yet look more closely to what Jesus asks of us. He commands: "Go therefore and make disciples..." What does it require of us? It requires our time and love to continue on in the lives of the new born. Just like a baby, they need care and training in the word of God. They need to see a witness of Jesus Christ in our own lives. Don't shrink back from that women. Come alongside of her. God Bless In ChristJeff

Brother wrote: No Bible at first. Rather, they teach them to have a genuine relationship with their creator first and foremost, so that they don't always need to pick through doctrine of what's "ok" or "not ok"- they already know.The Bible and doctrine many times conflict with each other. Throw out the doctrine and let Him teach us through His word. There is a testimony from the Home Church of China where they have a hunger for the word of God. Each family would take a page or a chapter of the Scriptures and reproduce the word of God. Then they would trade for other pages. Brother Yun who participates in the Back to Jerusalem ministry wrote of the circumstances you speak of groh-frog. He said that at first the outside missionaries would smuggle in thousands of Bibles to the Chinese home church. The home church was vibrant and powerful. Then as time went on, the boxes of Bibles also contained doctrinal books of various kinds. Brother Yun then testified that divisions began to take root in the Chinese home church. His wish was that these missionaries would continue to supply the Chinese church with Bibles and that they should keep their other publications to themselves. A newborn needs the milk of the word of God. Without the word there can be no foundation built upon the Rock.In ChristJeff

Sister Dorcas wrote:Depends if they are saved when they start to doubt, but, doubt is very paralysing. If they are saved, they need to address the reason they are so swayed away from the truth.It is God's work to remove the doubt. He begins by proving to us that He is real. Look to Scripture in the Gospels. Through signs and wonders Jesus proved that He was sent from the Father. Many who first followed Jesus because of the signs and wonders fell away because of the hard teachings that Jesus continued to develop as He discipled those who chose to remain. Read though the Gospels with the mindset of searching for the progression in His discipling of those who were left. This progression parrallels the sower of the seed parable. The carnal man cannot escape from doubt because it is God's responsiblity to transform him into a spiritual man. Paul always points to this dilema that exists for all men. What is his recommendation to the carnal man? Romans 85 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The Spirit of God will provide our the daily bread, are we willing to eat? This is where unbelief destroys the path.In ChristJeff

Dorcas wrote:""Preaching the word must have the intrinsic power to break through that unbelief in some people. The ultimate unbelief though, is to have heard of Jesus Christ, and been made aware that He is the only source of salvation, and still to choose not to believe in Him and not to receive His grace through faith, and be saved from sin and hell for ever.""Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.You are speaking of the Seed that is not planted on fertile ground and Satan takes it away. Only by the Grace and Faith of Christ are any able to be born again by the Incorruptable Seed and that Seed take root and bring forth fruit. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.It is by His Faith that we are saved. John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.The bride is given Him by the Father and whom He has given Him He will loose none except Judas. That includes all the Body of Christ the Church.John 3:32-33 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. He that hath received His testimony hath set to His seal that God is true.All things have been given to the Son and that includes all those that will believe because of His testimony that is birthed in us. The Holy Spirit came for this purpose to convict of sin and give birth and seal the Christ that is in us.John 3:35-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.The Father has given the Body of Christ the Church to the Son and upon this revelation Christ said, "I will build my Church."Merry Christmas and Happy New Year LynnIn Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:You are speaking of the Seed that is not planted on fertile ground and Satan takes it away. Only by the Grace and Faith of Christ are any able to be born again by the Incorruptable Seed and that Seed take root and bring forth fruit. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.The incorruptable seed is also planted in the hearts of those who fall away because they choose to submit to temptations. The seed sprouts into a living plant. The incorruptable seed also sprouts into a living plant in the lives of those who continue to live for the affections they have for the things of this world. Luke 813 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. Many look to the Spiritual experience of being Born Again at the moment when it sprouts. Your thoughts seem to suggest that the seed never sprouts in the hearts of the first three groups. Am I wrong in how I framed your position?In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff,Who is the Seed, not what is the Seed. If Christ be born again in the believer there is no turning back for Christ cannot deny Himself. The Father would not place His Seed in the believer if it were not going to take root and produce the Fruit of Christ, that is what the Cross is all about. Pure Grace, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. If the ground is not prepared by the Planter of Seed, there might be a few seed that take hold and produce fruit. That is not the Planter we have as a Father, He knows if the Holy Spirit does not prepare the ground, why even plant Seed. The Seed He is planting is to precious to be frivolous in His sowing. Our Father is the perfect Farmer and He will get His Crop. Matthew 13:27-30 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.Who will tell the harvesters when, where, what and how to harvest His perfect Crop? If there is seed that is planted it must die first before it can take root and produce wheat. There is seed of the tares, from whence do they come, yea they both are planted by the Same Farmer, but tares will not produce fruit unto the Wheat of the Father's House. Also those that are not planted in fertile ground, and spring up and die. It is the Farmer that knows the Seed that will be fruit unto His Seed, Jesus Christ being that Seed which is Incorruptable. Study the seed and see that Seed of the Father is Seed unto salvation by Christ Jesus birthed in the Born Again, His Seed and His Seed only.Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The remnant is the only ones that Satan is after and the only ones that will overcome because Satan has been defeated when it comes to God's Children, guess who wins, we do because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the Cross.In Christ: Phillip

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. How are we to be perfect? I am not perfect to myself, I am not perfect to anyone else that is of this earth. I am perfect to The Father, because God, when He looks at me He see's His Own Seed Jesus Christ His only begotten Son in me. That is what makes me perfect before the Father and the only one by whom I can be seen as perfect righteousness, which the Father has made for those that are His. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Even this is being revealed to those that birthed of the Father. That we became son's of God in spirit at our new birth and are becoming son's of God in our soul mind, with wisdom and righteousness being sanctified and redeemed by the Glory of God that is Christ Jesus our Lord, and we will be complete in every aspect as son's when we receive our glorious bodies, the same as Jesus Christ our Lord. On resurrection morning.Amen.2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; First we have birth, "delivered" Second we are receiving a new mind, "Doth deliver" Third will receive our resurrection bodies, "will yet deliver us"2Cr 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. We are being delivered unto death every day for His sake. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.We are to rejoice in our death with Him, that we might be glorified with Him as His Body the Church. He said His death was the Cross and looking to it, He said it was His Glory. We must die daily and see ourselves on the Cross as dead to sin as He is. 1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: This is the completion of all that I have brought to mind in this Post.Colossians 1:13-29 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.In Christ: Phillip

Sis wrote:This implies a much bigger effort on the part of the potential believer would be required, to prevent this choking by 'the care of this world' and 'the deceitfulness of riches'..... don't you think? (Not rhetorical, if you please.)Paul speaks of this condition that restricts the believer because he or she chooses to have affections for this world.2 Corinthians 6:12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open. 2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:\t“I will dwell in them\tAnd walk among them.\tI will be their God,\tAnd they shall be My people.”17 Therefore\t“Come out from among them\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.\tDo not touch what is unclean,\tAnd I will receive you.”18 \t“I will be a Father to you,\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,\tSays the LORD Almighty.”Here Paul identifies the stumbling block which prevents the believer from growing into maturity. Please remember that God's work produces a people that are "called out." The "affections" for this world, are the thorns and weeds which which have the ability to prevent one from producing the fruit of maturity.In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip asked:Who is the Seed, not what is the Seed.Within the context of the parable of the Sower:Mark 4:14 The sower sows the word.Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. If the Scriptures say that the "seed" is the "word of God." Then I must believe it. If I choose to not to hear whose problem is it: mine or God's?1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Only Christ is incorruptible, Scriptures prove that until everything is made perfect we live in the corruption of this body. According to 1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again" speaks of the beginning of the walk with the Word. But what does Paul always say about those first born again immature children? What is his prayers always? Is it not that we, the church grow into maturity? The work of His Holy Spirit reveals Christ in us working to save us from the corruption that is in this earthly body. 1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. The Word of life, the eternal life reveals the fellowship we have with the Father and Son through the Holy Spirit. It is the learning of His life that saves us. How does God accomplish this? What does Scripture say? It all begins with the Father sowing the word of God in the hearts of men, women, and children. We are saved by grace through faith. How does faith come? Is it not the word of God? I was just reading from Smith Wiggelsworth thoughts on the Holy Spirit and this is what he said:"When the Spirit of the Lord is upon us, we do not impart words but life. Words are only for the purpose of understanding what the Word is, but the Word itself is really life-giving."Deut. 8:3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD. Do not choose to overlook the importance of the word of God and how understanding His word is the means by which we know "the Life."In ChristJeff

The Parable of the Sower, It says is likened unto a man. The Good Seed is the Word of God and the tares are the Lies of the Satan. All life comes from God good or bad. Satan cannot create life, he can only lie to that life by the tares he sows. "good seed" (Sperma of God) "tares" (false grain) One is life and the other is death because Adam who was Life and became a tare, death.By the Word of God. Who is the Word of God and why is it living? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. This Word is Jesus Christ Himself.The offering of Christ was in the garden, which was the Tree of Life. If Adam would have eaten of the tree of Life he would have been just like the believer now in which we have partaken of His Body and Blood, which had to become a new covenant to redeem us from death. Do this in remembrance of Me. Adam chose the offering of the tares which are a lie and fell from Grace and Life that could have been in Christ without the Cross. But we know the rest of the Story.Believe it; Jesus Christ is the Word of God and He is living and full of Grace and Life and Peace, and He is living in God's children, for He is now my Spirit, which I am born again into. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.Is He come? Is He birthed in you? What Life do we now live in the Flesh? "The life I now live in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God." Gal 2: 20In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:The offering of Christ was in the garden, which was the Tree of Life. If Adam would have eaten of the tree of Life he would have been just like the believer now in which we have partaken of His Body and Blood, which had to become a new covenant to redeem us from death. Do this in remembrance of Me. Adam chose the offering of the tares which are a lie and fell from Grace and Life that could have been in Christ without the Cross. But we know the rest of the Story.Before Adam and Eve's rebellion, did not Adam and Eve know the Eternal Life? Was not the tree of life available to them?In ChristJeff

I was searching for churches to attend when we move to Pennsylvania this summer. Dave Wilkerson of the Time Square Church has established a ministry school in Grantville Pa near to where we will be relocating. I read one of the Sunday sermons which speaks to what the focus of this thread is. The pastor uses the word of God to frame the Truth of the life discovered in Christ. The word of God brings understanding to one who is abiding in Christ. By the word of God one is trained for the work He has prepared beforehand. There is nothing new in the contents of the gospel. What man discovers that is new. The new covenant's power is a spoken promise to each individual. The promise of the Holy Spirit will alway reveal the Truth that Scripture contains. Check this sermon out.http://www.mzsom.org/mzchs_serm_TWI_0001.htmChrist was in the garden with Adam and Eve. Christ was with Abraham. Christ was with Jacob. Christ was with Joshua. Today is the day of salvation. This has never changed since Genesis 3:15In ChristJeff

""Before Adam and Eve's rebellion, did not Adam and Eve know the Eternal Life? Was not the tree of life available to them?""The answer is: they new God and God is eternal life, but they had not chosen eternal life for themselves. By choosing to believe a lie they chose eternal death, and only the seed of Eve's offspring would would be the way back to life and that offspring, pointing to Jesus Christ, He would bruise the head of the one that lied to her, the devil, and then Christ and Christ only would be their salvation and eternal life. That is why they were kicked out of the garden, so they would not partake of the tree of life and live forever in eternal hell without reconciliation with the one that lied to them. You see, Satan knew that Adam and Eve had a free choice of whom they would serve and become children thereof. "YOU are of your father the devil." Act 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, This is Paul's expression of Who was revealed to him for three years in the desert, Jesus Christ Himself. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul is not an angels but he is completely and without any turning his Lords, Jesus Christ. "whose I am" Pro 23:7a For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: This is what Adam and Eve thought in their hearts, this sermon that the snake is preaching is what God would want for us to be just like Him, so they ate. My paraphrase. Then in their hearts they had chosen Satan as their father because they believed his lie. Then they had a nature and were condemned to life without God just like the father they believed who had been cast out of heaven.Now we who believe in Christ and His work on the cross, God by His Grace has given us new birth and the old has passed away and all things have become new. We are now children of the Living God our new Father through His Son Jesus Christ in whom we have believed.1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.Satan in no longer our witness in ourselves, but Christ Jesus in whom we have believed, He is now our witness in ourselves. Satan out and Christ in. Now we are perfect in spirit and are being made perfect in soul (mind) and will be perfect in body on resurrection morning.Hbr 4:12 For the Word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Again who is the Word? Yes Jesus Christ has divided our soul and spirit that He might become our Spirit. Our old spirit was not the Spirit of Christ, but the spirit of Satan. Our spirit and soul were one at one time but now with Satan split out of us our spirit is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:That is why they were kicked out of the garden, so they would not partake of the tree of life and live forever in eternal hell without reconciliation with the one that lied to them. Prior to the rebellion they had eternal life according to Scripture. Act 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, This is Paul's expression of Who was revealed to him for three years in the desert, Jesus Christ Himself. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.Christ revealed Himself to JobJob 19:25 \tFor I know that my Redeemer lives,\tAnd He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 \tAnd after my skin is destroyed, this I know,\tThat in my flesh I shall see God, 27 \tWhom I shall see for myself,\tAnd my eyes shall behold, and not another.\tHow my heart yearns within me! Christ revealed Himself to DavidPsa. 110:1 \tThe LORD said to my Lord,\t“Sit at My right hand,\tTill I make Your enemies Your footstool.” When God reveals Himself to man throughout Scripture, who is it that man sees? In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Hbr 4:12 For the Word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Again who is the Word? Yes Jesus Christ has divided our soul and spirit that He might become our Spirit. Our old spirit was not the Spirit of Christ, but the spirit of Satan. Our spirit and soul were one at one time but now with Satan split out of us our spirit is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.Phillip I hear your heart. I hear the testimony of Jesus that is in you. It is God's desire for us to grow in understanding. You speak of Paul's experience as being greater than all others that have written books of the Scriptures. I do not see this in Scripture. If I had to choose which Apostle or Prophet were given greater revelation it would have to be John, Moses, Ezekiel, Joshua. Your thoughts on the spirit of a man being replaced does not conform to Paul's teachings.1Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, The Corinthians have been given the testimony of Christ, yet Paul continues to teach about the nature of man's spirit and God's Spirit.\tThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. Paul teaches that man has his own spirit and God's Spirit is given to us to teach us the things of God. Remembering that Paul declared that the Corinthians had been given all utterance and all knowledge, the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you. Yet what does Paul say of the Corinthians? 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.They are still choosing to follow their own spririt are they not? What does Paul say of these believers? Is not the word of God the primary focus in Paul's ministry to them. He said that they were not able to receive the solid food but he had to continue feeding them the milk. Paul charged that they were still carnal. How is this possible if they have the testimony of Christ in them?In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Now we who believe in Christ and His work on the cross, God by His Grace has given us new birth and the old has passed away and all things have become new. We are now children of the Living God our new Father through His Son Jesus Christ in whom we have believed.You often speak of the new creation as being something that Paul was first to understand. Yet what does Scripture say?Job 33:24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;\tI have found a ransom’; 25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.The book of Job also speaks of a newness of life. For God restores His righteousness in man. And where do the righteous sit?Job 36:7 \tHe does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;\tBut they are on the throne with kings,\tFor He has seated them forever,\tAnd they are exalted. What kingdom do these righteous occupy?In ChristJeff

Sis wrote: Something, somewhere, about 'the incorruptible seed'.... has penetrated my spiritual understanding,Is. 28:10 \tFor precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,\tLine upon line, line upon line,\tHere a little, there a little.” This is how God works His word into the hearts of those who will listen. The understanding becomes clearer as He causes us to wrestle with the things He brings to our minds. At first we know there is something to be understood but we can't quite grasp what He is doing. Precept must precede precept, we learn line by line as we continue to be fed by His word.Be patient and know that He will satisfy those who hunger for His righteousness.God BlessIn ChristJeff

We also see that there may be a difference in that the word of God is sown, but has the law of God taken root in the mind and heart? God has distinguished or seperated man from all other parts of His creation by the gift of both spoken and written language. This is not the only thing that seperates man from the rest of His creation. Having said this, what purpose does His word, not the Word, serve as the means by which He has chosen to act upon man? How does His word become the law written by Him on the hearts that believe? In ChristJeff

Sis quoted: for if you do these things you will never stumble;11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That entrance will be supplied to you abundantly, the door by which we enter, is pointed to by the word of God. The parable of the Sower illustrates the narrow and the broad path. The parable of the Sower highlights 3 ways that leads to the broad road and one that leads to the narrow road.The narrow road changes the substance for what we hope for. That substance is acquired as you have pointed out Sister Dorcas, by listening and then doing. Deut. 11:18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. In ChristJeff

His words become a law written on our heart. What is the difference between hearing the word and [ that] word becoming a law that governs our life? In ChristJeff

Quote:Jeff wrote;"""They are still choosing to follow their own spririt are they not? What does Paul say of these believers? Is not the word of God the primary focus in Paul's ministry to them. He said that they were not able to receive the solid food but he had to continue feeding them the milk. Paul charged that they were still carnal. How is this possible if they have the testimony of Christ in them?"""Because they did not know what Romans 6 says and walk in Christ instead of by their own works. Read Romans 6 carefully about 10 times and not in our own understanding but by the revelation of The Holy Spirit, who and what we are in Christ. I don't see where any old testament prophets or new testament apostles had this truth and the completeness of Christ in us and what He is doing for us and not us doing for Him. Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Abraham, Moses, Ezekiel, Joshua, none of these were baptized into Christ's death. The Corinthians did not know it either, that is why Paul spent so much time with them. That they might know the Glory of Christ in them, a miracle of miracles that no one could have had or understood, before it was revealed to Paul and given to new believers in Christ who had known nothing but the Law of Moses and certainly could not understand that God was going to put another person in them and that their salvation would be by Him and only by Him and all they had to do was believe what God said about His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ in us would be our Teacher from then on. I agree with you about John, he had a special revelation of Christ that was because he loved Jesus so much. He taught us who Jesus is, not the history of who He was as a man. Jesus is no longer Jesus of Nazareth just as we are no longer men and women of earth, He is now Jesus the risen Lord and He lives His life in us and we are no longer of this earth either. That is what the Corinthians had to learn and what we have to learn today. Only Paul and a little of Peter and some of John's writing have this truth in them, no matter what you call old testament prophets or apostles which did not have this truth of A Person, Jesus Christ, being birthed in the believer is The Hope of Glory that we posses which nobody could before it happened, have this miracle of Christ in them. Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Not Christ in Abraham or in Moses or the apostles because He was with them not in them until Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit would seal us into Christ and His Life in us the Hope of Glory.2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Whose life do we now posses that could not be possessed before He was resurrected, ascended and come back in the believer, the Person Jesus Christ The Son of God, born again in believers, not the man Jesus of Nazareth.This is just 2 scriptures in Romans 6, there is much much more and in studying it more we will find that it is endless of the possessions we have in Christ of who we are in Christ, and what we will become by the Christ that is in us which we our soul minds will be learning for all eternity, We have the Wisdom of Christ and will Have the Wisdom of Christ for ever and it will never end.1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.In Christ: Phillip

Sis wrote:I'm surprised at your picking this excellent verse from the Old Testament, rather than any in the New Testament, which exhorts to walk in the Spirit,I chose this verse to illustrate that God's work in man does not change. It is the word of God that points man to God. God has determined that His word precedes faith. Man is saved by grace through faith. And yes Sis, the law that saves is not the one that was written on tablets of stone, a law that is weak because it is depended on the flesh. The law of the Spirit frees us from the bondage of the flesh. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Because they did not know what Romans 6 says and walk in Christ instead of by their own works. Acts 18:9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.” 11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Now in this Scripture Paul spent 18 months teaching the Corinthians. He who had the revelation of Christ taught only of Christ and Him crucified. So I am sure that Paul taught all things for the salvation that is in Christ. So all these who were not even apostles had the truth that Christ revealed to Paul. Yet Paul could not talk to them about the things that are spiritual because they had not chose to seperate themselves from the yoke of this world. How does the word of God penetrate a man's spirit in a way that enables him to put away his affections for this world? In ChristJeff

Brothe Phillip quoted:Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Paul stated this as both a truth and an exhortation. Why the exhortation?In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Whose life do we now posses that could not be possessed before He was resurrected, ascended and come back in the believer, the Person Jesus Christ The Son of God, born again in believers, not the man Jesus of Nazareth.Is the source of the "light" and the "life," different in these Old Testament saints?Job 33:28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. Job 33:30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life. Psa. 27:1 \tThe LORD is my light and my salvation;\tWhom shall I fear?\tThe LORD is the strength of my life;\tOf whom shall I be afraid? Psa. 36:9 \tFor with You is the fountain of life;\tIn Your light we see light. In ChristJeff

Quote: ""Is the source of the "light" and the "life," different in these Old Testament saints?"" The source is the same, the outcome is different.Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our Father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. "Us" are future Christians, not Israel Isa 63:16Abraham be ignorant--acknowledge us not; though we be not, "according to the flesh," the children of Abraham and Israel. We need not understand these words of Gentiles in contrast with Jews. They are rather the prayer of the whole church, Jewish and Gentile; neither Jew or Gentile in Christ and they contain an intimation that, in the days of the Messiah, "the children of Abraham" shall no longer be reckoned according to outward descent. Compare Ro 4:11-12. though Abraham . . . Israel--It had been the besetting temptation of the Jews to rest on the mere privilege of their descent from faithful Abraham and Jacob (Mt 3:9; Joh 8:39; 4:12); now at last they renounce this, to trust in God alone as their Father, notwithstanding all appearances to the contrary. Even though Abraham, our earthly father, on whom we have prided ourselves, disown us, Thou wilt not (Isa 49:15; Ps 27:10). Isaac is not mentioned, because not all his posterity was admitted to the covenant, whereas all Jacob's was; Abraham is specified because he was the first father of the Jewish race.Cf. Isa 1:2; 64:8. Israel, collectively, the national Israel, recognizes God as the national Father (Source) (cf) Ex 4:22-23, Doubtless the believing Israelite was born anew (cf) Joh 3:3,5; Lu 13:28 but the O.T. Scriptures show no trace of the consciousness of personal sonship. (OUTCOME) The explanation is given in Ga 4:1-7.Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, (OLD) but a son;(NEW) and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. There is a difference between a created son of Israel, the children of Jacob and the Christ birthed in the son's of God by Christ in them. Heirs of God and Joint heirs with Jesus Christ.We are the Bride of Christ as oneness with husband and wife oneness, but our oneness is by the Seed of The Father the Incorruptable Seed Jesus Christ birthed in us making us The Seed of God not the seed of Abraham. Israel is the wife of God and a wife is not seed kin to the Husband. A wife can be divorced. Son's cannot. You ask about the difference, this is it, Christians are Christ Ones, Born Again by Incorruptable Seed of the Father and son's of God. Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through ChristWe could not be heirs until Christ adopted us and was birthed in us and sealed by the Holy Spirit. No sonship until after Pentecost, then the Holy Spirit seals each believer into Christ and Christ could not be sealed in the believer until the atonement was complete in His ascention and return in being born again by Water and the Spirit in the believer. Not possible before the fullness of time appointed by the Father. Christ's promise of the Comforter is the express appointed time, by Christ saying My Father will send Him to you. Then Christ could be sealed in the believers, but not until after Pentecost.In Christ: Phillip

Quote;Paul stated this as both a truth and an exhortation. Why the exhortation?That we think of ourselves as and in being crucified with Christ, resurrected with Christ, adopted by Christ as son's, and even to the birth of His Spirit into and in Union with our spirit, by the Holy Spirit sealed and with the Mind of Christ, and His Father as our Father.1 Peter 4:1-2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. This is the will of the Father. Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.The Holy Spirit now reveals these truths in us that from Pentecost until now, that Christ is being revealed in us from Glory to Glory and my life is now Christ, which until Paul was given this truth the early Church did not get it, and we hear nothing until Paul began teaching this truth some 15 years after Pentecost. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. This is why the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, to reveal this Christ in us. The great Pentecostal Preacher, Peter did not mention the Cross as Paul did, Peter preaching; Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. Peter is still teaching about the Man Jesus, and repentance and baptisms. Paul is preaching about The Christ that is in him, a Person and His only life.1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.1 Corinthians 2:14-16 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.This is how we receive the things of the Spirit by the Mind of Christ. For it is of the Mind of Christ that the Holy Spirit receives of Christ, the things that are of Christ. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Christ had to be with the Father before He could send Him from the Father. Hence Pentecost. After which we can receive the things they could not bear yet. John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you. It is shown in Paul and all those that know the Christ that is in them the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, (OLD) but a son;(NEW) and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.I ask you once before in this thread, concerning the Scripture you point too. From memory of your testimony, I recall that you spoke of living under the law and experiencing powerlessness and frustration. Then there came a point of change. Does your testimony parallel the thoughts of Scripture above?Not possible before the fullness of time appointed by the Father. Christ's promise of the Comforter is the express appointed time, by Christ saying My Father will send Him to you. Then Christ could be sealed in the believers, but not until after Pentecost.How do you see your own experience with God? Is it dispensational theology or is it real? Were you as a child kept under the law until the appointed time by which God introduced you to the seal of His Holy Spirit?In Christ Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:That we think of ourselves as and in being crucified with Christ, resurrected with Christ, adopted by Christ as son's, and even to the birth of His Spirit into and in Union with our spirit, by the Holy Spirit sealed and with the Mind of Christ, and His Father as our Father.Do you see this Scripture as a practice of "Self-realization?" How can one know what Paul speaks of unless one is willing to accept Paul's teaching in Roman 8:13"For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."I believe Pauls statement is more of an exhortation to point the believer in the same way a John does in 1 John. That is, if you say you are a believer, are you really living according to the ways of the Spirit. Scripture speaks more of what is reality. What is the process. The outcome is predestined. We who believe will become more like Christ. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:This is how we receive the things of the Spirit by the Mind of Christ. For it is of the Mind of Christ that the Holy Spirit receives of Christ, the things that are of Christ.The Corinthians were given the mind of Christ yet they were not spiritually mature. What is it that prevented them from know the Spirit of Christ?In ChristJeff

Sis quoted: we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be,This is the predestined work of the Son of God. It is the "nature" of the work that is predestined. 10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness, is not of God,The Scripture above speaks back to Genesis 3:1515 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;\tHe shall bruise your head,\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.” 9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, Notice the thought presented here about His seed. Again look to Genesis 3:15. The woman is the Holy Spirit, the word of God becomes the Seed in the hearts of those who do not practice lawlessness. The manifestation of the seed becomes the Seed that saves. Matt. 7:23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’Matt. 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,Matt. 23:28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.Matt. 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.The practice of lawlessness prevents the seed from becoming the law that is written in the hearts. The law of the Spirit of Christ governs those who hear and obey. The manifestation of this law in the heart reveal the Seed to us. In ChristJeff

The law that God writes on the hearts of His people is defined by James.James 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. This is the only law that saves. For it to be a law that governs one life one must do what one hears. This is the essence of the law that frees.Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. If one carefully reads this section of Scripture and then compares it to the Scripture in James you will see that both men are teaching the same principle. One must follow the word and by doing so one will put to death the deeds of the flesh and thus will live. The only way one can achieve death, thus freedom from the bondage of sin, is by following the Holy Spirit. Now how one begins to understand the things of the Spirit by obeying the word, now that is the mystery that everyone must experience for themselves. The substance of this mystery replaces the hopes of the flesh with the hopes of the kingdom. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”Jesus wants all to "learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly of heart." For those who find Him to be the gentle and lowly teacher, their hearts will cry out Abba Father. This is the perfect law that frees us from the bondage of sin, bondage to the flesh, and bondage to the carnal mind.So we must hear and then do. What is it we hear? Is it not His word?In Christjeff

Jhn 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.What is the common denominator in these scripture? Know!!! With the Now as a given.This is why the Corinthians did not KNOW, Quote: "The Corinthians were given the mind of Christ yet they were not spiritually mature. What is it that prevented them from know the Spirit of Christ?" from Jeff.1 Corinthians 1:3-7 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: They had it. They did not know and believe.This is the problem> 1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?I am Catholic, and of Mary. I am a Baptist and of John. I am Pentecost and of Peter. Rapture, resurrection, 1st, 2nd. Works of the Law, works of Love. Grace or works? And on and on and on.We must come to this knowing, 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. What Day you say, Matthew 6:33-34 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Answer, this day, now, this is the day of salvation and Christ is our life and has been made to every believer, 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Who is our life? Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. When He appears we are already with Him and appear in His Glory.Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. We already Hid with Him and will appear at His coming. 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:What Day you say, Matthew 6:33-34 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Answer, this day, now, this is the day of salvation and Christ is our life and has been made to every believer, Brother Phillip has experienced these thoughts that he writes about above. He knows the path that his Lord has led him down. Phillip speaks of the "Word" that is in his heart. Phillip always speaks of something greater. Phillip knows that he will always decrease and He will always increase. This is salvation. Brother Phillip speaks of a problem, a stumbling block that prevents the Corinthians from "knowing Him." Paul says that they have been given all things in Christ. They have access to the mind of Christ. Yet there is unbelief that prevents them from entering into His rest. In the parable of the Sower, what is the nature of the things that keep the people from believing as Phillip does?In ChristJeff

In context of the sower of the seed parable, what does Asaph tell us about his relationship with the world and with God? What do you see in Psalm 73? In what ways was he tempted? What was the outcome of his thoughts? What everlasting notion does he praise God for? In ChristJeff

Lynn and Jeff,Psalms 73:22-28 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.May God richly bless you and may your quest in our salvation lead you to God our Father by the Christ that is in us. Amen. I praise God for your oneness in Him and your presence in His Kingdom and that I have your kindred spirits to refresh me by His truth. Thank you. 2Cr 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with us all. In Christ: Phillip

Psalm 732 \tBut as for me, my feet had almost stumbled;\tMy steps had nearly slipped. Here Asaph speaks of things which he discovered to be a trap, a stumbling block. He looks back to a point in his walk where he experienced some of what the first three groups of people stumbled on and did not become fruitful. Listen to his testimony about the world and its vanity.In ChristJeff

Psalm 733 \tFor I was envious of the boastful,\tWhen I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 \tFor there are no pangs in their death,\tBut their strength is firm. 5 \tThey are not in trouble as other men,\tNor are they plagued like other men. 6 \tTherefore pride serves as their necklace;\tViolence covers them like a garment. 7 \tTheir eyes bulge with abundance;\tThey have more than heart could wish. 8 \tThey scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression;\tThey speak loftily. I myself remember the times where as I read Scripture, and began to understand what a disciple of Christ should experience, I too was envious of those who seemed to live in prosperity. Satan tempted Jesus by offering Him the riches of this world. Satan in like manner steals the word of God out of the hearts of those who allow envy for the lifestyles that seem prosperous. Satan's efforts can be masked in the preaching of the "prosperity gospel." Satan's efforts can be seen in those who preach that God loves you just as you are and never point to Jesus as the source from which all who hear will enter into the law of liberty. These shepherds always point to men and not to Him through whom we have access into all mercy and grace. These shepherds have entered not through the gate but have climbed over the fence to steal.Satan's ways can argue for the happiness of the individual is of most concern for this life. The pursuit of freedom will satisfy the yearning in one's heart. Freedom to do and pursue the dictates of one's own heart is the substance for which man must strive. This is, of course. a lie. For the carnal mind is enmity towards God and cannot please God. If one searches the Psalms one will find the many ways Satan steals the substance for what we hope for. The word of God attacks the strongholds of Satan [that] he has sown in our hearts. Many stumble when envy is allowed to continue to feed the desires for this world. In ChristJeff

Psalm 7313 \tSurely I have cleansed my heart in vain,\tAnd washed my hands in innocence. 14 \tFor all day long I have been plagued,\tAnd chastened every morning. 15 \tIf I had said, “I will speak thus,”\tBehold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children. 16 \tWhen I thought how to understand this,\tIt was too painful for me— 17 \tUntil I went into the sanctuary of God;\tThen I understood their end. In these verses we hear of a struggle that once filled Asaph's life. He saw the world for what it was. He speaks of his own suffering as a consequence of being a member of "the generation of Your children." He speaks of the temptation of giving in to the pull of the world. 13 \tSurely I have cleansed my heart in vain,\tAnd washed my hands in innocence. Job mentions the same thought in his suffering. This suffering is a consequence of following God. Why? The work of God will begin to destroy our hopes that bind us to the ways of this world. God roots out and pulls down and destroys. This is the cross that everyone takes up who are of the "generation of Your children." This is the death that we share in with Christ. This is not a moment in time but an experience that continues as God sees fit. 14 \tFor all day long I have been plagued,\tAnd chastened every morning. In the sower of the seed, the first three groups fall short in this experience. This is a time where the soil is being prepared. And the first three groups choose to remain alive for the things of the world. Luke 812 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. Asaph points us to the Path.16 \tWhen I thought how to understand this,\tIt was too painful for me— 17 \tUntil I went into the sanctuary of God;\tThen I understood their end. Understanding comes when we too go into the sanctuary of God. In ChristJeff

Sister Lynn wrote:If one comes to Jesus as one is, and does not fall into the ground of Christ, identifying with His death, there can be no new life..... in reality.We all come to Jesus as we are, dead in our sins. We all have the gift that is freely given to us, the opportunity to live because of the Life. We all rely on our carnal mind, yet Christ exhorts us to take His yoke upon us, and learn from Him. We do not know or understand how it is that we must die with Him for we have no understanding, only the mustard seed of faith. The precept of death to the old man, being buried with Christ, is a precept that He himself teaches each of us. We know according to Scripture that this precept exists. We know that Christ commands us to take up the cross daily, yet the death of the old man, in the life of a believer grows continually in its power to empty us of self-exaultation and self-governing. Paul testified of this experience. 1Cor. 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Now we begin this life trying to live according to the law. We only find condemnation because the carnal mind can not deliver us from ourselves. This experience causes suffering. Yet Christ is there teaching us to hear His voice. As we begin to follow Him in obedience, we begin to see more clearly the wonderful ways Christ, leads us to this death. Along with this experience of death, comes the experience of Life. We begin to experience the filling of His Life. This work of God, this grace, changes the substance for what we hope for. That is why His burden is light. Only by the Spirit can one satisfy the law of God. Eph 1 "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."The sealing of the Spirit, many look at as legal term just like the precept of being baptized into Christ's death. Yet it is much more. As the Spirit guides us we begin to realize the effective working of God's grace through His Spirit leading us to "absorbing" the 'Life" that becomes salvation, the redemption.The sower of the seed parable exhorts us to continue on. The parable warns us what to look out for along the path of redemption. Salvation is realized as we grow to be one with the Father and the Son, through the Holy Spirit. It is always what we are, not what we say we are. Scripture always gives us light to reveal the conditions of our hearts. According to Scripture, belief creates. It all started in Genesis 3:15. We begin believing and doing the things which pleases Satan. God sends the woman to birth the Seed in us. Ramble ramble ramble sorry sisIn Christjeff

Psalm 7322 \tI was so foolish and ignorant;\tI was like a beast before You. 23 \tNevertheless I am continually with You;\tYou hold me by my right hand. 24 \tYou will guide me with Your counsel,\tAnd afterward receive me to glory. 25 \tWhom have I in heaven but You?\tAnd there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. Asaph looks back to a time when he realized the foolishness of his carnal mind. He sees himself as a beast before the Lord and His glory. This understanding comes from the Lord through the Spirit. How does he know the counsel of the Lord? How does he know that he will be received up in glory? How can one who is supposedly not born of the spirit according to dispensational theology, have a heart like his? 25 \tWhom have I in heaven but You?\tAnd there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. When the martry Stephen was about to die, to whom did he look upon? In ChristJeff

25 Whom have I in heaven but You?And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. Whom do we the born again have? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Whom do we have, we have Christ Jesus in us and we are already seated with Him in Heavenly Places. Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church (the body of Christ) the manifold wisdom of God, In Christ: Phillip Not earthly but heavenly.

Br Phillip1Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1Cor. 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. According to these Scriptures which body are you at this moment in time, the natural or the heavenly?In ChristJeff

Thankyou Sis.In ChristJeff

I am in a quickened body of flesh that contains the Birthed Spirit of Christ In me, which is now my spirit. The Spirit of Christ is the Heavenly Places by which my spirit is there. My soul Mind is learning this and my mind is being renewed to the Mind of Christ. My Body will be perfect in heavenly places like His glorious body.Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 3:9-12 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him. (Jesus Christ) We need more than our own faith for this mystery of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. We need the Faith of Jesus Christ to reveal it to us by the Holy Spirit our Comforter Teacher. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.In Christ: Phiilip

Hi Jeff, Your ramblings are wonder of Gods truth, I enjoy them tremendously. It's the questions I have to deal with. :-? :-? :-?

Brother Phillip,I hear your testimony of the "Life" you have found "in Christ." I ask these questions, to maybe, root out the truth that you have experienced. I myself search daily to come to greater understanding of what God has wrought in us. And I don't see much farther than a few days at a time where I might be in that search. And then to communicate where I have been is another process of growth that often times results in stumbling and groping for the words that might direct some to know Christ as you know Christ. My prayer has been for a long time that God show me how He saves. So maybe I might exhort others to grow beyond the elementary principle and oracles of God. Foregive me as we struggle to understand, to grasp, the beauty and the miracle of salvation.God BlessJeff

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. We often exhort one another with this Scripture. This is Paul's solution to the problems that he sees for all who believe. Look to the Scripture that precedes this exhortation. Col. 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Look to where Paul points the believer. "Set your mind on things above, not on the things of the earth." Now listen once again to Asaph's testimony. 24 \tYou will guide me with Your counsel,\tAnd afterward receive me to glory. 25 \tWhom have I in heaven but You?\tAnd there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. Look at Paul's statement in Col 3:4 and compare it with Asaph's words in Psalm 73:24. Both speak of a glory to come. Look to what happens with a heart that seeks the counsel from above, (Asaph's testimony in 24 and 25) and compare this with Paul's exhortation found in Col 3:1-4.The spiritual precept brings about a change of heart that saves because of what we as believers are called to focus our eyes upon. It is this desire that God births in us that overwhelms the influences that are earthly.Remember the sower of the seed parable? Are not the first three groups impacted adversly by their earthly influences?In ChristJeff

Col. 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. After this exhortation by Paul, he continues to develop what he has, if you will, drawn a picture of one who has been "raised with Christ." Listen to the Scripture that follows:Col. 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. Col. 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, Here we hear Paul teach those who have been "raised with Christ," "to put to death," "to put off" all the things that resemble the earthly or old man. In Psalm 73, Asaph also considered the ways of the sons of disobedience. 3 \tFor I was envious of the boastful,\tWhen I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 \tFor there are no pangs in their death,\tBut their strength is firm. 5 \tThey are not in trouble as other men,\tNor are they plagued like other men. 6 \tTherefore pride serves as their necklace;\tViolence covers them like a garment. 7 \tTheir eyes bulge with abundance;\tThey have more than heart could wish. 8 \tThey scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression;\tThey speak loftily. 9 \tThey set their mouth against the heavens,\tAnd their tongue walks through the earth. Paul and Asaph speak from the same point of view don't they? The only difference being that Asaph speaks of his own experience and Paul exhorts others to come to the same understanding that Asaph and Paul have already recieved from God. Both Asaph and Paul recognize and then teach about those things which can cause one to stumble. Why do they labor on this point? Again how does the parable of the sower and the seed fit with these Scriptures?In ChristJeff

24 You will guide me with Your counsel,And afterward receive me to glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but You?And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. You will guide me, from and outside position with counsel. And afterward, That is if your guidance my whole life makes me acceptable, after the obedience has given me acceptance to glory. Desire upon earth, again, "on", which is outward and earthly desire from self no death but outward death in the grave in the earth.Col. 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. Raised with Christ, already in Christ and raised with Him, to above where Christ is, not earthly but heavenly all inward and heavenly. Things above, not of this earth, already death unto life, hidden with Christ in God. Our life already hidden with Christ in God appearing with Him in glory. All inward, appearing with Him, setting our mind of things above and where are we, in Him is how we set our mind on things above, again inward, from death to life seeking those things of Life which are above, again inwardly spiritual things above in Christ.The big difference is the first is receiving counsel from the outward counsel and having to keep the Law on this earth.With Paul, in Christ, inward change in spirit, seeking things above, inward in heavenly place we are already seated with Christ Jesus. Inward life in above places in Christ in life already done on the Cross. Two completely different types of salvation with different ends. One inheriting the earth the other already in heavenly places in Christ. One by works the other by Grace through Faith.Asaph was still working outward on earth, Paul's, the work is already done by Christ and we are already dead in Christ and seeking the things of Christ which are in us from above, all inward.Christ in us the Hope of Glory, or God outside council of working for salvation knowing that God is in Heaven and hoping to be their. The other knowing we are already seated there with Christ, knowing our heavenly home is in Gods House which Christ is preparing for us. By grace through faith, so much more that by the works of the Law with grace unto obedience. The two sound the same in context, but are completely different in outcome, one to reigning with Christ in the Father House, the other being reigned over on this earth.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Christ in us the Hope of Glory, or God outside council of working for salvation knowing that God is in Heaven and hoping to be their.Psalm 91:Psa. 91:1 \tHe who dwells in the secret place of the Most High\tShall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 \tI will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;\tMy God, in Him I will trust.” Where is this secret place? In ChristJeff

Now again, Paul exhorts those who have been "raised with Christ, " Col. 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. We see that even as we are viewed as being raise with Christ, there is that which also seperates us should we continue in the ways of the old man. Paul preaches this many times throughout his letters to the churches. Listen to Asaph's thoughts about his relationship with the Lord and also about those who have not perservered. Psalm 7325 \tWhom have I in heaven but You?\tAnd there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. 26 \tMy flesh and my heart fail;\tBut God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. 27 \tFor indeed, those who are far from You shall perish;\tYou have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry. What is it that seperates us from Christ, is it the world, is it other men, is it the powers and principalities? No. "For indeed, those who are far from You shall perish; You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry."In the sower of the seed, what is the substance of the harlotry of those who Satan steals the word out of their hearts? What is the harlotry that causes men to fall away when tempted? What is the harlotry that chokes out the "life" becase they pursue the pleasures of this world. The harlotry exists in what we hope for that is not of God. It is our own heart's desire that causes us to be far from Him. Again listen to Asaph words about himself.26 \tMy flesh and my heart fail;\tBut God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Asaph is speaking of dieing to oneself is he not? "My flesh and my heart fail..." In ChristJeff

Colossians 1:24-27 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:The secret place is that which has been revealed to the Body of Christ the Church and the glory of this mystery of Christ in you. We no longer have to be under the shadow of His wings for protection and salvation, it is now the Christ in us that is our strength and our protection and salvation because we believe God concerning His Son. This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, Hear ye Him.Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.Even Moses and Elijah were there and for the first time were seeing His Glory and purpose planed before the foundation of the world which They created for this purpose. Ge 1:26Ver. 26. God had now prepared all things necessary for man's use and comfort. The plurals us and our afford an evident proof of a plurality of persons in the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, which all abide in the believer which was not possible before the Cross. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.All Three of the One God in us, the son's of God, new birth, new nature, new creatures, the old has passed away and all things have become new.No more abiding in the shadow of His wings, but the perfect mystery revealed to His Saints, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

"You have destroyed all those who desert You for harlotry."Yes but you cannot destroy those in Christ, for:Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (not things past) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Nothing, Nothing, Nothing can separate us form the Love of God and Who is that? Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen and Amen.Why must the Old Testament way of salvation be commingled with the New Testament way. You cannot commingle Law and Grace or Works and Faith. Either the Faith of Christ in us will show the world our Faith or our works are not based in Christ. Our works are what the world is so tired of seeing and it being called Christianity. Let it be the Faith and Works of Christ in us that the World sees'. Then the greater works that Christ spoke of will come forth.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (not things past) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Yes, God persuaded Paul of this. And yes, God has persuaded you brother. My point is focusing on those according to Scripture, in the sower of the seed, who never come to be persuaded of this truth. All groups received the word of God sown in their hearts, yet there are those where Satan stoled the word from their hearts. There were those who submitted to temptation and fell away. There were those whose life was choke out of them by their pursuit of the pleasures of this world. They themselves had not experienced being "persuaded." No man can persuade another of this truth, only the "increase that comes from God." In ChristJeff

I am persuaded that you are right. You also have a heart for those that are suffering under the old taskmaster and their old husband whom they have turned back to, even though he is defeated, just like Israel wanted to return to Egypt. Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.The woman is the believer, the dead husband is Satan, and the new Husband is Christ, "another Man." May we be instruments of Christ, God willing, that He that is in us might reach all those that have been given Him.This also is Satan' greatest lie for the born again. When the Church says repent and be baptized come to Church and get plugged into the ministry of the Church and study your bible and go to bible study and prayer services and you will grow in your salvation and become of benefit to God. Then Satan says, you see you can't do it, you are worthless and no matter what you do you will never be good enough to get to Heaven. But if the Church would keep the old testament separate from the new testament and preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul has given us, they could say do you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Now that you believe, Christ has been born again in you and you now have all the righteousness you will ever have. You now have a new Teacher, the Holy Spirit and He will guide you into all truth. Now we start to renew your mind to the Mind of Christ that is birthed in you, be patient because God will not give you more than you can handle. But you need to be assured that you are saved to the utmost and nothing will ever take it away from you and most of all you are now a son of the most high God and a brother or sister to Jesus Christ Himself and all that your Father has is at your disposal as He knows you will be able to handle it you will receive it. Now you must know that I see Jesus in you because I see Jesus in me, let us go in Christ and tell all those that God sends to us who This Christ in us is.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: their old husband whom they have turned back to, even though he is defeated, just like Israel wanted to return to Egypt. Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.I have not come across many that understand this Scripture as you do brother. Amen. The woman is the believer, the dead husband is Satan, and the new Husband is Christ, "another Man." May we be instruments of Christ, God willing, that He that is in us might reach all those that have been given Him.I have always looked at the "dead husband" as being the law. The law is given as a tutor leading to Christ. The taskmaster is identified by PaulGal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”Gal. 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. The law condemns and cannot make anyone righteous, yet the law keeps one under guard until faith comes. Then Satan says, you see you can't do it, you are worthless and no matter what you do you will never be good enough to get to Heaven.I believe the law is responsible for this. Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. God BlessIn ChristJeff

Psalm 91:Psa. 91:1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most HighShall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;My God, in Him I will trust.” David prays in Psalm 51,6 "Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden parts You will make me to know wisdom."Psalm 91 speaks of a "secret place." Psalm 51 speaks of "truth in the inward parts, and the hdden parts..." Is this secret place this inward parts, this hidden parts a description of the heart of man? The sower of the seed parable is centered on the heart of man. By what means does God enable man to have a heart for Him? We know that Paul teaches that it is impossible for man to accomplish this. Romans 3In ChristJeff

Psalms 51:5-7 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.Already in iniquity and entering life into this cursed ground unable to change ones own heart, mind, or even the works to be able to approach or please God. God Himself desires truth in our inward parts, which we cannot accomplish on our own. Begging cleansing by hyssop which is an earthly cleansing agent is all we can ask for, because it is the only way we can think of as to be clean, or by water or by anything we can clean ourselves to be presentable to God on our own. Even Christ would not accept the hyssop which is also a pain reliever until all things were accomplished, so He would not give any thought or appearance of depending on any earthly agent to decrease His suffering, for the Father first then us.God Himself must do the washing, not the outward but the inward and the secret place that we cannot reach by our works. Only being born again of the Water and Spirit of Christ will the inward parts be exchanged, not just changed but exchanged for a new Heart and a New life and that is again Christ in us the Hope of Glory. By birth we can now have the inward part the same as Christ, the New Mind of God Himself in Christ Jesus, and The Holy Spirit doing the job of Teacher that we are able to renew our minds to the Mind of Christ. The old man with Satan as my father out, exchanged for the assurance of a new mind with the New Man birthed, Christ in and God as my Father.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?Were we baptized into Abraham or Moses or Israel or anyone else except Jesus Christ? Absolutely Not. The next question, Was Moses or Abraham or any person Baptized into Christ or the Holy Spirit before Pentecost? The only other question we can bring forth is was The Spirit of Christ Himself born again in any believer before Pentecost and the promise of Christ's answered prayer of the Father sending the Comforter Teacher, The Holy Spirit. The only answer can be possibly a very few apostles as Peter, Whom Christ said only The Father in Heaven had revealed to Peter that Jesus Christ was the Son of God the Messiah, but still they did not know the experience of New Birth and needed the Holy Spirit to reveal it to them, and they did not even know this until It was revealed to Paul and Paul only whom God chose from his mothers womb to reveal Christ In Him that he might reveal it to the world, including Peter. Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: And Peter agreeing, finally: 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Acknowledging the wisdom of Paul. In the last words we hear from Peter are in agreement with Paul's Gospel: 2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. Christ in a man. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: Begging cleansing by hyssop which is an earthly cleansing agent is all we can ask for, because it is the only way we can think of as to be clean, or by water or by anything we can clean ourselves to be presentable to God on our own.Jesus counsels the church of the Laodiceans:Rev. 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.Both David and Jesus speak of the condition of man who lives in corruption. We in the flesh, yet born again, yet with Christ in us, still carry with us "the shame of your nakedness.." while still in this body. Jesus exhorts the members of the church of Laodicea to buy from Him gold refined by the fire, this gold will provide a white garment that covers the shame of man's nakedness. Whether it is hysop or gold, one thing is clear. The life we receive from the Lord does not change the nature of our flesh. It remains corrupt while we still live in this body. We know that hysop, gold, or white garments are used to illustrate the intent of the grace that is dispensed to us. God's intent is to lead us from faith to faith, seperating us from the desires of this world. The intent of God's grace is to free us from the bondage of our carnal mind. David knows that sacrificing the blood of bulls cannot create in him a new heart. He prays for God to do so. This new heart, what will it's desires be? That is God's work, a work that is unreachable for man. Hysop covers the smell of death. Gold represents the desires that can only be created by God in man for Him. In ChristJeff

Quote: Jeff wrote; which I completely don't agree with by degrading the Cross of Christ."Whether it is hysop or gold, one thing is clear. The life we receive from the Lord does not change the nature of our flesh. It remains corrupt while we still live in this body. We know that hysop, gold, or white garments are used to illustrate the intent of the grace that is dispensed to us. God's intent is to lead us from faith to faith, seperating us from the desires of this world. The intent of God's grace is to free us from the bondage of our carnal mind." Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen."Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich;" 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: This is the Gold we buy from Jesus Christ, even He is our Faith and our Purchased Salvation. Gold even our Faith, which is in Him and refined by Him and that is what we are becoming, which is the Golden Faith of Christ Himself in us the Hope of Glory.I see my cup being filled with refined Gold and the dross is being poured off. Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. This is our Gold, Christ HimselfWho is our sanctification? 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.In Christ: Phillip

Amen brothers, you sound like Christan and Faithful and hopeful in their discourses from the The Pilgrim's ProgressI am Jumping in here abit late, but this caught my eye...You mentioned Psalm 91:1-4 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.”now readMattew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thouthat killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! All these allude to the Passover, and in this mathew verse, Jesus was lamenting because he wanted to be there Passover Lame.There is another thing that I wunder if I could prsuade you to see...Christinyou wrote: The woman is the believer, the dead husband is Satan, and the new Husband is Christ, "another Man." May we be instruments of Christ, God willing, that He that is in us might reach all those that have been given Him.Romans 7:2-3 "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."The husband is not satan at all, not even the law it's self but the requirements of the Law that was against us. The law is what bound her to the husband.Colosians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. The requirements are told best in thisGalatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.AndJames 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.THAT YE MIGHT BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD. Because it passeth knowledge, I guess this is a statement that we will not understand. But I see a different quality to this fullness which we have in the love of Christ. Ephesians 3:16-18 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;Do we dare believe that this is true. Not because of ourselves or even having the knowledge of the Old Testament and believing in a Messiah but by the power of God in Christ Jesus it is possible for those that are born again not of corruptible but of Incorruptable Seed, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.Ephesians 3:19-21 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.This says we can, as no other has ever known, by the Glory of the Church by Christ Jesus. In the church or, by the church, Ephesians 3:10-11 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: The church is to be the instrument by which the glory of God will be shown; and it is by the church that His praise will be celebrated. This is the True Body of Christ the Church which is established by Christ the Head being born again in the Saints. "Throughout all ages, world without end." There is a richness and amplification of language here which shows that Paul's heart was so full of the subject, and that it was difficult to find words to express his conceptions. No version or even purposed person as Paul can fully express the meaning. It is, literally, "unto all generations of the age of ages," or "unto all the generations of the eternity of eternities, or the eternity of ages." It is the language of a heart FULL of the love of God, and desiring that God the Father might be praised without ceasing for ever and ever, and even this cannot express the fullness of what God has done in Christ Jesus who is in us which is all the Hope of all the Glory that God is due, in us and from us and all creation.In Christ: Phillip

""The husband is not satan at all, not even the law it's self but the requirements of the Law that was against us. The law is what bound her to the husband.""And the Word of God is infinite and beyond all we can think or perceive in our own intellect. It takes direct revelation from The Holy Spirit our Teacher to come to these understandings.Yes I see what you are saying and it is another truth in revelation and tomorrow even much, much more.In Christ: Phillip

Brother L wrote:You mentioned Psalm 91:1-4 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.”now readMattew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thouthat killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! All these allude to the Passover, and in this mathew verse, Jesus was lamenting because he wanted to be there Passover Lame.Especially look to what Jesus says, "How often would I have gathered her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"I see Jesus looking back to the many generations of the past and to each one saying, "you were not willing." The husband is not satan at all, not even the law it's self but the requirements of the Law that was against us. The law is what bound her to the husband.I agree in this clarification. The focus is on the precept of being married. Scripture teaches that marriage of two becomes one in Spirit. So being married to the first husband, means that one is bound by the law and thus dead. When one dies to the first, the adulterous situation is resolved. Also in this Scripture is the precept of Adultery. Througout the OT, we hear the prophets declare that God hates Adultery in the Spiritual sense. Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.This thought by Paul is then expounded upon in Roman 8: 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. By submitting to the Spirit one is freed from the first husband and death. What does this say to those who are of the first three groups described in the sower of the seed?In ChristJeff

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.I'm sort of butting in here, but I can't help but be very shocked to read these words - esp the use of the word, "carnal". I don't use the KJV, so I missed this for years. Years ago I was taught that "carnal" Christians were saved, but just didn't live very Godly lives. I see no such notion here!!!!! And it is sooooo obvious. My how I was deceived! How could they have done that - those who were so careful to expound Scripture accurately? Only in recent years did I come to realize that a "born again" person who doesn't live the new life, is, in fact, not born again!! I discovered that truth in Scripture. Diane

Has not satan used the Law of God against God's Creation with Adam and everyone since except the born again which the law is no longer our tutor or governors, by teachers. Our teacher is now the Holy Spirit of Truth Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law,-- (Were they redeemed?) (Only in the millennium) (Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in)--, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.This includes all peoples of the earth regardless of their nomenclature, Jew or Gentile, bond or free, etc. How do we receive adoption of son's? Certainly not by the Law or even the promises to Israel but to The Promise not as seed's but as Seed, Christ Jesus Himself.Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Christ is the only Incorruptable Seed we can receive that fulfills that one promise of Abraham and his seed.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. And who is the Word? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.IN Christ Phillip

The husband is not satan at all, not even the law it's self but the requirements of the Law that was against us. The law is what bound her to the husband.This is the reason I said the old husband is Satan.Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.The woman is a believer going back into her old husbands, Satan, even though the body is dead she wanted to go back, to Satan and his ways like Israel wanted to go back to Egypt, it is hard to not turn back to the old familiar ways. Staying in the new Husband which is Christ, is being not carnally minded, as Israel had to wonder in the wilderness for forty years until all that chose not God parishes and would not enter the promise land.In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:Has not satan used the Law of God against God's Creation with Adam and everyone since except the born again which the law is no longer our tutor or governors, by teachers. Our teacher is now the Holy Spirit of Truth No, satan has not used the Law of God. God Himself used and still uses His Law.How does God proove our sins? He uses the Law.Our sins are the evidence of the Law that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been washed away by His atoning blood, then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment. How is the Law used? The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the law and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we sin, it also shows us why we need to be changed most of all.We are under Grace, but we are not to be lawless, because that is sin. We are still under the Law of Christ: 1Corinth. 9:21 to them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law.Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. This is the reason I said the old husband is Satan.Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.The woman is a believer going back into her old husbands, Satan, even though the body is dead she wanted to go back, to Satan and his ways like Israel wanted to go back to Egypt, it is hard to not turn back to the old familiar ways. Staying in the new Husband which is Christ, is being not carnally minded, as Israel had to wonder in the wilderness for forty years until all that chose not God parishes and would not enter the promise land.The context of the the woman and the husband, is being bound by the law to him. What is that which bindes her to him? It would be the requirements of the Law.If we don't keep requirements of law, we are guily under law.How do we keep the requirements? If it isn't through faith, it is by works.Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.But, keeping in context of the the woman and the husband, the chapter goes on and explains the battle between an uregenerate person with the law.Paul explains that the battle is trying to fullfill the law in the flesh.So then the Husband must be the requirements of the Law, which is to fullfill all the law.

roadsign wrote:

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.I'm sort of butting in here, but I can't help but be very shocked to read these words - esp the use of the word, "carnal". I don't use the KJV, so I missed this for years. Years ago I was taught that "carnal" Christians were saved, but just didn't live very Godly lives. Diane

"But under the law to Christ." Bound by the law enjoined in Christ; under the law of Love and affectionate gratitude and duty to Him. We will obey His commands; followed by His Mind that is in us by Holy Spirit instructions; seeking His honour; yielded to His will. In this we violate none of the rules of the moral law. And Paul here intimates, that his and our grand object is to yield obedience to the law of the Saviour, which is the excellent way, 1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way, which is Love. This is the governing purpose of our life. The greatest reason for obedience is the Love of God that is Christ in us. And this would guide a man right. In doing this, we would never violate any of the precepts of the Law of Christ, for Christ obeyed them, and enjoined their observance. He would never feel that he was without law to God, for Christ obeyed God, and enjoined it on all. He would never feel that The Church, the Body of Christ came to set him free from The law of Love, or to authorize licentiousness; for its grand purpose and aim is to make men holy, and to bind them everywhere to the observance of the pure law of the Redeemer, by Christ, and us in Him being son's and daughter's of our Father by His great Love which he gave at the Cross.In Christ: Phillip

Sis. Diane wrote:I see no such notion here!!!!! And it is sooooo obvious. My how I was deceived! How could they have done that - those who were so careful to expound Scripture accurately?First, do you see the power of the Scriptures brought to light by the Spirit. There is nothing in life so valuable. Gold and silver do not compare to this treasure. Secondly, I would not say that you were deceived. It is just that those who teach do not understand. Many times in the OT God through His prophets declares that the backsliding shepherds only heal superficially. Look to what Paul warns Timothy about concerning the church in the end times. 2 Timothy 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! There are many who outwardly display a form of godliness yet their testimony denies the power of God's grace. How can this happen? They have never come to submitt to the leading of the Holy Spirit. They continue to live an adulterous life. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:This is the reason I said the old husband is Satan.In a way, yes, I see what you are saying. According to God's declaration, Genesis 3:15, \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;...The end result of living a spiritually adulterous life will infact define you ultimately as the seed of Satan. The salvation of Christ will not take root. One will not be transfered into the Seed of the Woman. We are one or the other, we cannot be in both. Yet there is a distinction that I must make. The carnal mind, according to Scripture can be influenced by both Satan and the Woman. All temptation, all sin comes from the spiritual influence of Satan. Everything that is true, everything that is good comes from the Woman. The law was given to instruct us of God's precepts, ordinances, judgements, and commands. In this way, God declares to creation His rules. Yet, left to our carnal mind, we do not know how to perform those things which satisfies God's law. How do we learn to love God with all our being? How do we learn to love one another as God has always required? So when we begin to learn of God's ways according to Scripture we begin to see and then in our own effort, try to obey the Law. It is this endeavor by us, I believe, that Paul teaches of in Galatians, that we as children, enter into a relationship which amounts to being under a tutor, a govenor. What do we learn from this as children? Rom. 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. What does Paul say of this understanding that God has worked in him? 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. Do you see the words, "how to perform what is good...'?According to the carnal mind, we do not know how to perform what is good. Paul states:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? It is this law, the law of death, that all creation has been subjected too. This law of death is the lack of understanding, no man can know God unless God reveals Himself to man. This is the law of the carnal mind. With this carnal mind, we have a choice to listen to the spiritual world of Satan or the Woman, the Holy Spirit.Listen to Paul solution. Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. The most important words of Scripture for those who enter into the fullness of the gospel are these. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.What is the result of this consequence for those who walk, who live by faith?2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Only by the Spirit will we KNOW how to put to death the deeds of the body. What does God say of this work?Psa. 116:15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD\tIs the death of His saints. In ChristJeff

Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. In these three situations, what might we say of these who hear the word, who God has placed His word in their hearts? What has not taken place? Listen to Paul's testimony...Phil. 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, Paul is willing to give up everything "for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ..." This knowledge is not just appropriating Scripture and saying that we believe what the Scripture may be conveying to us. For Jesus said, Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that\t‘Seeing they may not see,\tAnd hearing they may not understand.’Many do not see. Why? The answer is found in the first three groups. In ChristJeff

Phil 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, Being conformed to His death, is what seperates us from the first three groups. I believe we know in our hearts when we hear the preacher telling us a lie. I believe the Holy Spirit gives witness to this. But we know that in the last days, many will surround themselves with teachers who tickle the ear. The first group allow Satan to steal the word of God out of their heart, lest they should believe and be saved.Being conformed to His death will free us from that which tempts us. If we die to this world, will not our hearts be free from the fear of men? If we die to this world, will it not mean that the lustful pleasures that we once sought no longer satisfy. Being conformed to His death will reveal the futility of living for the comforts and pleasures this world has to offer. How many suffer finacial bondage brought about by our desire for the pleasures that this world seeks? How many have not time for God and His people? How many have no time for family? Oh how easily the word of God is chocked out of our lives. But, many have tried to find peace through their own efforts. They live according to the law. But what does Scripture say to those who have patience? Luke 8: 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.Psalm 1199 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?\tBy taking heed according to Your word. 10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments! 11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,\tThat I might not sin against You. 12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!\tTeach me Your statutes. 13 \tWith my lips I have declared\tAll the judgments of Your mouth. 14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,\tAs much as in all riches. 15 \tI will meditate on Your precepts,\tAnd contemplate Your ways. 16 \tI will delight myself in Your statutes;\tI will not forget Your word. This person knew the answer.In ChristJeff

Luke 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 2 Timothy 22Tim. 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. In this section of Scripture we find that Paul warns Timothy of one particular instance where Satan steals the word out of their hearts. Paul exhorts Timothy. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Do you see the point on which Paul rests on? "the word of truth"In ChristJeff

Luke 86 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. In the book of James we are given some instructions:James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. These Scriptures teach how to protect the weak, the sick who lack moisture, who "wanders from the truth."In ChristJeff

Luke 87 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. Jesus taught this, Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.Where do we at this moment in time find ourselves. Do you despise the manifestations in people that worship mammon bring to light? Or are you indifferent to this precept? Do we have one master or do we live in adultery? The word of God is powerful, "and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."What is the word discerning in our hearts? In ChristJeff

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. The word, law, here needs some attention. We rarely think of this word in connection with New Covenant, and yet here it is. I am more inclinde to think: "The Spirit has made me free." which is true, but what of this: the law of the Spirit has made me free. And how does this law make us free. I think I know, but I want to know more clearly. Diane

Sis Diane wrote:The word, law, here needs some attention. We rarely think of this word in connection with New Covenant, and yet here it is. Psa. 119:1 \tBlessed are the undefiled in the way,\tWho walk in the law of the LORD! 2 \tBlessed are those who keep His testimonies,\tWho seek Him with the whole heart! 3 \tThey also do no iniquity;\tThey walk in His ways. 4 \tYou have commanded us\tTo keep Your precepts diligently. 5 \tOh, that my ways were directed\tTo keep Your statutes! Meditate on these words of Scripture. What does it mean to walk "in the law of the Lord? Are they just words, then we are governed by our carnal mind and subject to the law of death. Or is the Spirit involved as one reads and meditates on the words of God. The Spirit will reveal things never understood by the carnal mind. Do we struggle to know His words, or do we struggle to hold onto men's doctrine. Everyone who honestly seeks will struggle for the first and begin to see the wonders of the truth as it unfolds in our own lives. In the beginning I struggled to hold onto men's doctrines. There is no peace in this pursuit. Peace is realized as God reveals His perfect truth in us. God gives those His promise that they will live in a state of blessedness. In verse 5, the psalmist, reveals that in himself he cannot direct his own way. He seeks God for the grace necessary to "walk" in His ways. 7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments. Seach the Scripture for the meaning of judgements. What does it mean to one who learns of God's righteous judgements. How do these personal judgements of God impact the life of the one whom God judges continually. What is the underlying purpose of His judgements? 9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?\tBy taking heed according to Your word. The word of God, the Holy Scriptures penetrate our being. The work of the Scriptures will bring about questions like the one in verse 9. Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. Look to this verse, where is the word of God? Why does God reveal His word? What does this phrase mean? "that you may do it."The word of God is incorruptible, those who hear begin to understand that incorruptibility. I will continue, out of time.In ChristJeff

Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.I think that this verse is saying that God's laws are not merely written on stone tablets, or somewhere far away, where we have to go to discover them. They are written on the conscience. "Gentiles... show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciense also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing." Romans 2:16 But I don't think that this is referring to the "law of the Spirit" as applied to someone born again. (in the real sense)There is something still missing here in my mind, maybe it has to do with the definition of the word: law. Think of scientific laws, or natural laws. They are not a list of dos and don'ts as we think of laws. They form a prescribed, preprogrammed predictable system that governs the universe. Well what of Spiritual law? Likewise it is not merely a list of rules we obey, but far more. It is a spiritual operational system that governs our lives - distinct and very different from natural laws.The law of the Spirit might include such aspects as divine revelation and miracles, supernatual insight, operation of the gifts and offices, and also qualities such as faith, love,and self-sacrifice (beyond human natural faith and love, and self-sacrifice) The Kingdom of God is not of this world. It is governed by spiritual laws, not natural laws.... The law of the Spirit has an eternal perspective, not temporal. ...and much more.... which would make a good study.It should also keep us from mixing up the natural with the spiritual.. and maybe understand the New Covenant. Does this make any sense? Diane

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts , their conscience also bearing witness , and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ;)What is the heart? 2588. kardiaSearch for G2588 in KJVSLkardia kardia kar-dee'-ahprolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).The heart is the mind will and emotions, feelings, thoughts and learning center of the soul. It is separate but connected to the spirit of a man. The spirit of a person before salvation is of Satan, and can only know the things of the world. When a person believes God about His Son and Jesus Christ comes into our spirit and we now have the Spirit of Christ, which is rebirth, of water and the Spirit, we are regenerated and can know the things of heaven. Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. Not of this earth but of the Kingdom of God. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Now I see. The physical with heavenly indications. Jhn 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner [or no], I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. For never in all the world has this happened because no man could see until Christ gave blind eyes to see.John 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. Which we all were.Everybody wants to make all these one when it comes to a person. If we don't rightly divide them we will never come to the understanding of how God does His work in the believer. Body, Soul, and Spirit. The Body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? In other words the body is just a clay pot quickened to hold all that the new birth contains. The soul or heart of a man is where the renewing of the mind comes from. Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. What is the perfect will of God? That we know that we have the Mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit who deals in the heart of us that are saved, will teach us this truth. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.The Holy Spirit dwell in the soul of man and also is the power of the spirit of a person. The only thing left is the spirit of a person, that is where Christ dwells, that is we no longer have the spirit of our father Satan because Christ defeated him at the Cross. By being born again we know possess the Spirit of Christ, that Satan out and Christ in. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.This is what Christ was talking about when He said that this would happen before it happens so we would understand and believe. John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.What are we to believe? John 14:26-28 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.He is telling us that the Comforter will come and be in us not with us, and He is telling us that He Himself will come and He will be in us also. The Holy Spirit to teach us all things. Jesus Christ to be our New Nature in Spirit, the Life we now live we live by the Faith of the Son of God. Then God the Father also coming to make His Abode with us. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.So, The Holy Spirit our Teacher in our soul, heart. The Spirit of Christ our new Life in Christ our regenerated nature, and God the Father ruling and reigning over the complete person, by the power of His Spirit that controls our learning and the power of the Spirit of Christ that is in us. The Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross. The Body quickened to contain this Deity and the seed that must be planted in the ground, die and then on resurrection morning a new body that will produce the fruit of the Seed that is Born Again in us, The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ and we will be just like Him.In Christ: Phillip

Sister Diane wrote:Think of scientific laws, or natural laws. They are not a list of dos and don'ts as we think of laws. They form a prescribed, preprogrammed predictable system that governs the universe. The law of the Spirit is also a preprogrammed system which God has established before the foundation of the world. This system that governs the universe, is also predictible. It is predictable, in that those who live by this law, will be conformed into the image of Christ. The scientific oberservation of this law is found by one who endeavors to recognize how this law affects one's heart. The path that one takes is not predictable. For the Lord lights the path. This is what seperates the Spiritual world from the natural world. Our carnal mind cannot not comprehend the Spiritual. So what has God given us to open the door to the Spiritual? 1Pet. 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, How has God ordained, or pointed to the means by which we come to understand the law of the Spirit? It is by faith. Listent to these words, "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth." What does this say about the way one enters into and remains on the lighted path? The next words are,"through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again,..."These words of Peter also are the same as 1 John. These words of Peter are also the same as Pauls. Only through the Spirit do we hear the commands of how to perform what we did not know according to our carnal mind. And finally, Peter points to the source from which understanding comes. It is the incorruptible seed, the word of God. God has ordained that His word is the key to finding the things of the Spirit. It is the key which opens the door to Jesus. It is the power of the incorruptible seed, the word of God that changes the condition of one's heart. It is the incorruptible seed which reveals the law of the Spirit to us. The manifestation of this law in the hearts and minds of those who believe reveals the Salvation that changes us into the image of the incorruptible Jesus our Christ. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:So, The Holy Spirit our Teacher in our soul, heart. The Spirit of Christ our new Life in Christ our regenerated nature, and God the Father ruling and reigning over the complete person, by the power of His Spirit that controls our learning and the power of the Spirit of Christ that is in us. The Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross. The Body quickened to contain this Deity and the seed that must be planted in the ground, die and then on resurrection morning a new body that will produce the fruit of the Seed that is Born Again in us, The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ and we will be just like Him.I here what you are saying yet, we are given many many examples of men who have strayed from the truth, they have wandered away. This is just one example,Revelation 2:‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. In this example they have Christ, yet their love has deminished, how is this possible according to your teaching Brother Phillip? In ChristJeff

Sister Diane wrote:he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross. In 2 Timothy, Paul instructs Timothy 2Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, Paul exhorts Timothy to share in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God who has saved us and called with a holy calling...Then Paul speaks of situations which cause him to suffer. He warn Timothy that he will also experience this suffering. We are all called with a holy calling. For those who are like minded...2 Timothy 2: 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Then Paul identifies two men who through their teaching have overthrown the faith of some. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. What might Paul mean when he says, "18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;Could he mean that the effects of this teaching causes some to see no need to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God?" Might the teaching of the prefection that comes with the ressurection be misapplied to one's life as he lives in the corrupt body? Might one be miss led into thinking that Salvation is complete with a one time prayer? What might the result of such teaching look like? 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You see these men teach a form of godliness, maybe a doctrine which secretly dismisses the responsibility of man to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit. For those who teach, we are already perfect, is the manifestation of this teaching reflected in John words:1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. How is faith overthrown?In ChristJeff

Hellloo Rookie,"""In this example they have Christ, yet their love has deminished, how is this possible according to your teaching Brother Phillip?"""The reason is they don't know what I am trying to teach. They are saved as by fire, by believing on the Lord Jesus, yes even to those that believe on His Name. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: They don't know that Jesus Christ Himself Is in them and they keep trying to be pleasing to the Father by what they do and never find who they are. The more they try the more they fail, and even if they clean up their own lives it is still not the Oneness that God wants us to have in Christ Jesus, Who is not born again in them and they are saved. Then comes your favorite parable; Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away; Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. It does not say that they loose their salvation it says they cannot repent, because of Satan's lies, the seed sown on all other ground in the parable, which leads them astray. This is the Churches fault, because they are still teaching works righteousness, again works righteousness not Christ righteousness. I could go on and on but I think you get the picture, do do do and become and don't don't don't and be pleasing. Our righteousness is not in what we do but in whom we have been exchanged and now are the son's of God in Christ Jesus. Amen. Because God has made Him righteousness in us. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. If we do and don't because of who we are, fruit will come forth by the who we are, Christ in us the hope of Glory. In Christ: Phillip

Quote:"""he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross."""The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.It does not say that eternal life is in the Holy Spirit it says that eternal life is in Christ. It does not say the he that has the Holy Spirit has life, it says that he that has the Son has life.The Holy Spirit is our Teacher of this life and He will always teach us this Christ forever.Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Christ is the Life, The Holy Spirit is the Teacher thereof.

"""he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross."""The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.Phillip,I think the quote was yours origionally (not mine, as Rookie said) And, I appreciate your clarification, Phillip. Being conformed to His death will free us from that which tempts us. If we die to this world, will not our hearts be free from the fear of men? If we die to this world, will it not mean that the lustful pleasures that we once sought no longer satisfy.We can safely assume that to the extent that we struggle with sin, we are not conformed to his death. Rookie, Many thanks for the references related to the "Law of the Spirit." Clearly, the life lived according the the Law of the Spirit is radically different. The law of the Spirit opperates by an entirely different power, different set of values, producing a different outlook, different citizenship, different way of relating to fellow humans (the law of love), different perception, (eternal not temporal, spiritual not natural).... Spiritual laws supercede, even defy natural laws.... They produce abundant life = gain rather than loss (death). ... ultimately eternal life. By the law of the Spirit we can understand God's ways, KNOW him.... receive divine enlightenment, prophetic revelation, we are empowered to die to "self", ..... and much more Diane

No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away; Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. It does not say that they loose their salvation it says they cannot repent, because of Satan's lies, the seed sown on all other ground in the parable, which leads them astray. I feel that a huge assumption is made when we say that those who have heard the word, had some fall on the soil of their hearts, tasted the goodness of the Spirit. were born again. The Bible does not say that. Jesus pointed out that many Christians have a false sense of salvation. It should not be surprising then that Scripture frequently warns us to check ourselves out; for example, Jesus said, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us – even eternal life” I John 2:24Paul wrote: "Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test." 2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)Peter wrote: “… be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome in the eternal kingdom of our Lord.” 2 Pet. 1:10Clearly, although spiritual birth can only come from God and be sustained by his Spirit, we are responsible to make sure that it is genuine. We are commanded to check for evidence in light of Scripture (not according to our own standards).In Scripture we learn that initial experiences with God's truth and light does not assure eternal salvation, as Jesus’ parable of the sower and the seed reveals: “… the rocky places is the man who hears the word (seed) and at once receives it with joy, but since he has no ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble and persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” see Matt. 13:18-23 “Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word (seed) from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved . Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no ROOT. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away… …the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop.” Lk. 8:11-15Imagine that you once planted an oak seed in your garden. Then you leave it for many years and get occupied with life’s affairs. You assume that because you once planted it, it is growing into a strong tree. In your mind you picture a healthy tree, and may even tell your friends about it. You may write a poem or song about it.However, you never actually go to look for evidence. From your window you may see the little fence you put around the plot, and the stake in the ground marked with the date you planted it. But if you would look up close, you may discover that weeds have taken over and there is no evidence of an oak tree at all.That can happen when the seed of God’s word is planted in our hearts. In our minds we may still recall that wonderful day we received it into our hearts, the awesome experience, the tears, the walk up to the altar, the ecstatic peace. We may remember how much we meant it and how zealous we were to live for God. However, memories of the past are not trustworthy criteria. Jesus said that even seeds that sprout quickly and initially seem to show signs of life do not ensure eternal salvation.The book of Hebrews uses Israel as an example of a people who received many seeds, and yet their faith never took deep root in God. The Israelites in the desert had tasted God’s blessings, and even had the presence of his Spirit. God saved them from the world, that is, from Egypt and later from surrounding enemies. He saved Israel from starvation and from thirst. I suspect that he miraculously spared them many times in order to give them many opportunities to repent and receive eternal salvation. However, in the end, except for a few individuals who “took root”, Israel produced no “crop”, and so God did not spare the unbelievers from the eternal consequences. They "never entered his rest." Heb. Even in Jesus’ day, as a nation, Israel refused to believe, and instead they trusted in their inherited status with God and their own righteousness. And so Israel, apart from those who took root (remained) in Christ, was rejected by God and become a broken-off branch.Israel's history serves as a warning to us: We too cannot base our salvation on the times God rescued us in the past; we cannot trust in our cleaned-up life, our works, and our denomination. History has proven that even the best Bible-believing churches stray from pure faith within a very few generations.Judas is another example. He was called by Christ just like the other disciples were. However, his association with Christ did not guarantee his eternal salvation. Likewise today, there are many who have responded to God’s call, and even zealously worked hard in his vineyard. But Scripture does not allow them to use that as criteria for salvation.Countless professing Christians are so assured of their salvation that they never examine themselves to make sure it is real. They are confident that because they “got saved”, they have eternal security, even though they live according to their own standards, continue to master their own lives, follow the ways of the world, or trust in the church. Sadly, they are not trusting in God’s salvation but in their own salvation. They will perish on the final day, unless they repent.I believe that one reason false assurance is common is the way salvation is presented. It is made too easy and allows for too much compromise. Very little is said about Christ's requirements. Also, people assume that faithful adherence in their church is proof of salvation. Few question this.Jesus, on the other hand, let seekers know the cost up-front. I suspect that one reason he discouraged half-hearted commitment was because he did not want anyone to have a false sense of eternal security. That would be worse than being pagan. At least pagans do not assume to be saved.We need to know what a "well-rooted tree" looks like, or we will not know what to expect. The Bible gives plenty of criteria by which we can examine ourselves and know where we stand. The first epistle of John is an excellent example. In it John wrote: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” 1 Jn. 5:13 Diane

Brother Phillip wrote: No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away;Luke 812 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Do you see that one must continue to believe and through diligence one is saved. Paul is always exhorting us to grow into maturity. In verse 12 Satan has stolen the word of God out of their heart. With the loss of the word, these people continue to grow into the seed of Satan. 2 Thes 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. In this verse, the people err because they did not recieve the love of the truth. In the sower of the seed, the word of God was sown by God in the hearts of the individual. And then Satan comes and steals the word out of their hearts. It is the love of the truth which overcomes the works and deceptions of Satan. The love of the truth, what power creates this love?In ChristJeff

If you are not born again, are you really even a Christian?

Brother Phillip wrote:The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.I agree with this totally. It is the Holy Spirit that creates the New man. The new born will have a DNA that will cause us to be conformed into the image of His Son...The Holy Spirit is the power by which God has chosen to change us in a way that resembles the Son of God. The "Life" is a way of describing the manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We will begin to understand how Christ suffered. We will begin to understand how the Father loves the Son. We will begin to understand why the world must hate us. We will begin to understand how Christ loves us by giving us what is His through the Holy Spirit. This is the nature of the spiritual union between us and the Father and the Son. This whole transformation is summed up in these few words.Genesis 3:15"....her Seed;..."In ChristJeff

Sister Diane wrote:We need to know what a "well-rooted tree" looks like, or we will not know what to expect. The Bible gives plenty of criteria by which we can examine ourselves and know where we stand. The first epistle of John is an excellent example. In it John wrote: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” 1 Jn. 5:13 DianeVery well said in all that you have written about the sower of the seed parable. But this last statement is especially precise. Many pastors will teach out of a Dallas Seminary Dispensational Theology type text. The verse in 1 John 5:13 is explained just the opposite of what you have so clearly written above. How many are lost, because men teach that we are already made perfect by what Christ did on the cross. Yet these same people never seem to experience the "Life" that John and Paul write about. They never learn to love the truth.In ChristJeff

If you are not born again, are you really even a Christian?There are countless who have been in a courtship with the Lord for years, but they never do get marrried. We lump a lot of people in the catagory, "Christian", not only people but things too, ex: music, buildigs, organizations, t-shirts, ball-caps. Words tend to gain their definition by how they are used (or misused) It means very litte to me that someone calls themselves a Christian. That is such a broad term. Frankly all who are under the vast universal umbrella if "Christianity" is a Christian. (but that doesn't mean that many of them entered by the narrow gate.There is a time that we just have to abandon commonly used terms, and learn how to recognize and define the real thing. Diane

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."Do you see the two aspects, first reconciled by His death, secondly, and much more, are we saved by His life.Most teach that there is no seperation of these two aspects. The love of the truth will save us from deception. We must learn to love what the word says above all other desires.In ChristJeff

having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."In my mind this says: We have been restored to God, and also we have been saved from death, the effects of sin (condemnation), the bent to sin. There is also a future salvation - we are saved from eternal condemnation. I think most people only think of the last kind of salvation - from hell. So "salvation" is merely an eternal life insurance policy - quite possibly void at that. Diane

How many are lost, because men teach that we are already made perfect by what Christ did on the cross. Yet these same people never seem to experience the "Life" that John and Paul write about. They never learn to love the truth.Might I add a thought: They also never learn to persevere, or see the need. John said: “For everyone born of God overcomes the world.” 1 Jn. 5:4 He did not say that some of those who are born again will be overcomers. Instead, he said, "everyone" who is born of God will overcome the world. That means that no worldly Christians will be in heaven. This would harmonize with the teachings of Jesus who clearly taught that you cannot be in two places at once. You cannot have your affections in this world and remain in him at the same time.On the final day, only overcomers will enter heaven. It would seem that it is what’s at the end of the journey that counts, not what was at the beginning. "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life which is in the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7Diane

Thanks, Diane.I totally agree that the term "Christian" has lost its original meaning. We are known by our fruit. I believe the coming persecution will definitely weed out those who are true believers.

If you are not born again, are you really even a Christian?John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Look closely to what Jesus is teaching here. First, He promises that IF you abide in My word, then you shall know the truth, and then it is the truth that set one free. Free from what?Then look closely to Jesus' teaching about sin. First whoever commits sin is a slave to sin. That is all of us. Then Jesus says that those who remain a slave do not abide in the house forever. Then Jesus says, "but a son abides forever. Therefore IF the Son makes you free, you will be free forever. Romans 8 teaches the same thing. Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Here Paul teaches the same thing about sin and death, and the means by which we are freed from the body of death. The law of the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." The choice to reject or submit to the Spirit is freely given. All live in the House for a time, yet only those who perservere, these take on the image of Christ.What does it mean to live in the "house." In ChristJeff

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. In ChristJeff

I have given examples in Scripture where in the sower of the seed, the first three groups fall short and do not find Christ.Now what does Scripture say of those who become fruitful?Luke 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.Look to these words,"having heard the word with a noble and good heart..." What does this say of the condition of the heart? Is it harden because of sin? Or is it like the heart of David?Psalm 5116 \tFor You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;\tYou do not delight in burnt offering. 17 \tThe sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,\tA broken and a contrite heart—\tThese, O God, You will not despise. We know that all men are born dead. Their heart is wicked. Yet here we hear of the noble heart and good heart, the broken and contrite heart. Heb. 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Is anyone listening to what the word of God is showing them about their own heart?In ChristJeff

A broken and contrite heart...what picture does Scripture paint of those who are Jesus' disciples....3 \t“Blessed are the poor in spirit,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 \tBlessed are those who mourn,\t\tFor they shall be comforted.5 \tBlessed are the meek,\t\tFor they shall inherit the earth.6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.7 \tBlessed are the merciful,\t\tFor they shall obtain mercy.8 \tBlessed are the pure in heart,\t\tFor they shall see God.9 \tBlessed are the peacemakers,\t\tFor they shall be called sons of God.10 \tBlessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Do you see yourself in this picture?In Christjeff

Those who learn of this blessedness learn through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who learn of this blessedness become poor in spirit, mourn,grow in meekness and mercy. Those who learn of this blessedness will have learned it because they have hungered and thrist for righteousness. These aspects of learning do not come without sacrifice, dilligence, and patience. These aspects of realizing the nature of the one who is called a son of God comes to those who continue on and perservere. God is faithful to fill those who do so. Our Lord the Lord of the Sabbath has commanded this of us...Matt. 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”Matt. 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”What do we learn as we observe this ordinance?In ChristJeff

If one remembers the first three groups in the sower of the seed parable, we are given different aspects from which to learn or to be warned about the ways others have fallen away from the truth. All who come to the Lord as He has sown His word in our hearts will come to see these warning signs in our own lives. False doctrine, sin, and the love of this world impacts all of our lives. It is the work of the Scripture, by the Holy Spirit that points out, or warns us of those things which seperate us from our walk with our Shepherd. This relationship between Scripture and our hearts and minds, is the source from which living water flows. It is the bread of life. This living water brings repentance from dead works. This living water and bread brings strength to those who drink and eat...56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”John 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” John 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Again....63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." What is the purpose of communion? In ChristJeff

Sis wrote:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Amen...What does Paul teach the Corinthians who have been given all the spiritual gifts in Christ?1 Corinthians 11:“Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. There is much to see in this ordinance that Christ has given to us. In Christjeff

All of these are we in Christ Jesus. These are the perfect Law that Christ fulfilled in Himself and by He that is in us we are becoming these. We cannot use these to take the temperature of our salvation in and of ourselves, then we put ourselves back under condemnation. Example:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.If I am not poor in spirit the kingdom of heaven is not mine.4 Blessed are those who mourn,For they shall be comforted.If I don't mourn, I won't be comforted.5 Blessed are the meek,For they shall inherit the earth.If I am not meek, I won't inherit the earth.ETC, ETC.6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,For they shall be filled.7 Blessed are the merciful,For they shall obtain mercy.8 Blessed are the pure in heart,For they shall see God.9 Blessed are the peacemakers,For they shall be called sons of God.10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.These principles are Christ and by Him we accomplish all of them. I rejoice and am exceedingly glad that in Christ we have great reward, and by His strength and His Cross we are saved and becoming His sermon on the Mt. To the world, Not by my power but by His might.Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;In Christ, by His glory, by His strength and His might, by His Spirit that is in me: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:These principles are Christ and by Him we accomplish all of them. I rejoice and am exceedingly glad that in Christ we have great reward, and by His strength and His Cross we are saved and becoming His sermon on the Mt. To the world, Not by my power but by His might.There is no condemnation for those who are abiding in Christ. Yes, it is Christ who will bring you to understand what it means to be poor in spirit. Yes, it is Christ who will lead you to mourn. Yes it is Christ who will teach you what if means to be meek. Yes it is Christ who will lead you to thrirst after His righteousness. For those who see this path, for those who walk this path, they understand that there is no condemnation. Instead of condemnation they are filled with blessedness. Is this your understanding Brother Phillip?In ChristJeff

Wesley wrote in his sermon, The repentance of Believer'sIII. 1. From what has been said we may easily learn the mischievousness of that opinion, — that we are wholly sanctified when we are justified; that our hearts are then cleansed from all sin. It is true, we are then delivered, as was observed before, from the dominion of outward sin; and, at the same time, the power of inward sin is so broken, that we need no longer follow, or be led by it: but it is by no means true, that inward sin is then totally destroyed; that the root of pride, self-will, anger, love of the world, is then taken out of the heart; or that the carnal mind, and the heart bent to backsliding, are entirely extirpated. And to suppose the contrary is not, as some may think, an innocent harmless mistake. No: it does immense harm: it entirely blocks up the way to any farther change; for it is manifest, “they that are whole not need a physician, but they that are sick.” If, therefore, we think we are quite made whole already, there is no room to seek any further healing. On this supposition it is absurd to expect a farther deliverance from sin, whether gradual or instantaneous. (thought to be continued)He claims that this teaching is not merely a harmless mistake but has great enormity of consequence to those who believe in this manner..He states....No: it does immense harm: it entirely blocks up the way to any farther change; for it is manifest, “they that are whole not need a physician, but they that are sick.”In ChristJeff

Is this your understanding Brother Phillip?In ChristJeffAS far as the Holy Spirit has brought me in this miracle of Christ in me and still seeking to know Him. Yes.In Christ: Phillip

Wesley also wrote in the same sermon: "That He would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hands of our enemies should serve Him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him, all the days of our life” (Luke 1:74-75)3. You have therefore good reason to believe, he is not only able, but willing to do this; to cleanse you from all your filthiness of flesh and spirit; to “save you from all your uncleannesses.” This is the thing which you now long for; this is the faith which you now particularly need, namely, that the Great Physician, the Lover of my soul, is willing to make me clean. But is he willing to do this to-morrow, or to-day? Let him answer for himself: “To-day, if ye will hear” My “voice, harden not your hearts.” If you put it off till to-morrow, you harden your hearts; you refuse to hear his voice. Believe, therefore, that he is willing to save you to-day. He is willing to save you now. “Behold, now is the accepted time.” He now saith, “Be thou clean!” Only believe, and you also will immediately find, “all things are possible to him that believeth.”4. Continue to believe in him that loved thee, and gave himself for thee; that bore all thy sins in his own body on the tree; and he saveth thee from all condemnation, by his blood continually applied. Thus it is that we continue in a justified state. And when we go “from faith to faith, when we have faith to be cleansed from indwelling sin, to be saved from all our uncleannesses, we are likewise saved from all that guilt, that desert of punishment, which we felt before. So that then we may say, not only,Every moment, Lord, I want The merit of thy deathbut, likewise, in the full assurance of faith,Every moment, Lord, I have The merit of thy death! For, by that faith in his life, death, and intercession for us, renewed from moment to moment, we are every whit clean, and there is not only now no condemnation for us, but no such desert of punishment as was before, the Lord cleansing both our hearts and lives."There is such a miracle that man cannot see with eyes that don't see or hear with ears that don't hear. Paul is not just saying that we have the Spirit of Christ in us, which is true, but he is saying in the first person, we have a complete person, Jesus Christ in us, in jars of clay with such a transition he calls us new creatures. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. From I, I, I, to Christ living in me, to My life by His Faith in the my flesh, The Son of God. Do we really understand what this is saying? This is a declaration of a complete new life in Christ Jesus. Oh, That God would grant the Holy Spirit to reveal this to the body of Christ the Church. God has made us new people that no other people at any time has seen or known. Not Adam, Abraham, David, or any other person in the scriptures. But a new person, man, how ever you want to look at it, but we are a new Creature in Christ Jesus. 1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;Of Twain, Jesus Christ and the Believer, One new man. Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Put On: Search for G1746 in KJVSLenduow enduo en-doo'-ofrom 1722 and 1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively):--array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:Father Help us to see Him, not only in ourselves but in each other, that we might love one another as He loves us, NOW.In Christ a new Creature: Phillip

Brother Phillip I understand what you say here in quoting from the same sermon...but what is important here is to continue to lay the groundwork for those that have not yet come to understand the mystery that Paul speaks of here and strives as you strive to bring to words of what importance it is to all who find God...Colosian 2: 1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Everyone must find this treasure for themselves...Here is the continuation of the thought that Wesley brings forth..2. On the contrary, a deep conviction that we are not yet whole; that our hearts are not fully purified; that there is yet in us a “carnal mind,” which is still in its nature “enmity against God;” that a whole body of sin remains in our heart, weakened indeed, but not destroyed; shows, beyond all possibility of doubt, the absolute necessity of a farther change. We allow, that at the very moment of justification, we are born again : In that instant we experience that inward change from “darkness into marvellous light;” from the image of the brute and the devil, into the image of God; from the earthly, sensual, devilish mind, to the mind which was in Christ Jesus. But are we then entirely changed? Are we wholly transformed into the image of him that created us? Far from it: we still retain a depth of sin; and it is the consciousness of this which constrains us to groan, for a full deliverance, to him that is mighty to save. Hence it is, that those believers who are not convinced of the deep corruption of their hearts, or but slightly, and, as it were, notionally convinced, have little concern about entire sanctification . They may possibly hold the opinion, that such a thing is to be, either at death, or some time they know not when, before it. But they have no great uneasiness for the want of it, and no great hunger or thirst after it. They cannot, until they know themselves better, until they repent in the sense above described, until God unveils the inbred monster’s face, and shows them the real state of their souls. Then only, when they feel the burden, will they groan for deliverance from it. Then, and not till then, will they cry out, in the agony of their soul, Break off the yoke of inbred sin, And fully set my spirit free! I cannot rest till pure within, Till I am wholly lost in Thee. Let us continue on in our pursuit to bring forth in words what we ourselves have discovered...God Bless In ChristJeff

Sister DorcasSis, it is a wonderful experience to find the jewels, the treasures that lie waiting to be understood in the OT...The reading of the OT will never be the same.God BlessIn ChristJeff

Continuing from Wesley's sermon...3. We may learn from hence, secondly, that a deep conviction of our demerit, after we are accepted (which in one sense may be termed guilt, ) is absolutely necessary, in order to our seeing the true value of the atoning blood; in order to our feeling that we need this as much, after we are justified as ever we did before. Without this conviction, we cannot but account the blood of the covenant as a common thing, something of which we have not now any great need, seeing all our past sins are blotted out. Yea, but if both our hearts and lives are thus unclean, there is a kind of guilt which we are contracting every moment, and which, of consequence, would every moment expose us to fresh condemnation, but that He ever lives above, For us to intercede, His all-atoning love, His precious blood, to plead. It is this repentance, and the faith intimately connected with it, which are expressed in those strong lines, I sin in every breath I draw, Nor do Thy will, nor keep Thy law On earth, as angels do above: But still the fountain open stands, Washes my feet, my heart, my hands, Till I am perfected in love. As one reads and contemplates the words of Wesley, also consider the ordinance of communion which Christ has established for His church.In ChristJeff

Quote:"As one reads and contemplates the words of Wesley, also consider the ordinance of communion which Christ has established for His church."May I be so bold as to change the word ordinance to: also consider the love Commandment of our communion with Christ which is His Body the Church. Matthew 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.Mt 26:29Will not drink henceforth--drink it new with you; he means to say, "The time for my drinking with you the literal fruit of the vine is over; the kingdom of God is about to be established"-- this was by his propitiatory death, resurrection, assension, and the outpouring of his Spirit--"henceforth I will drink with you the spiritual new wine of the gospel"--new because it belongs to a new dispensation--"in my Father's kingdom." This was fulfilled to the apostles in a special sense, in the extraordinary measure of Christ's presence and Spirit bestowed upon them at Pentecost as his earthly instruments in establishing his kingdom. Compare Lu 22:29-30. It is fulfilled to all believers in a same sense, in the communion they have with Christ in His earthly church; and it shall have a perfect fulfilment to all His true friends in his heavenly kingdom.Ephesians 3:16-19 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.Remember Me in Love all the days of our lives and beyond all eternity. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, (((who loved me,))) and (((gave himself for me.)))Me, In Christ: Phillip and all me's said, Amen.

Brother Phillip wrote:May I be so bold as to change the word ordinance to: also consider the love Commandment of our communion with Christ which is His Body the Church. You may be bold Brother Phillip. It is a wonderful thing that God works in us so that we might ourselves experience..John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”I used the idea of ordinance to imply that Jesus has established this memorial of His death as a practice that He has commanded us to do. There are reasons for the "practice" of this meal...Paul writes of this ongoing practice which brings to light why we do this...1Cor. 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. What is Paul teaching here? Why, according to Paul, do we enter into this practice?In ChristJeff

Paul writes about partaking of communion...1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.In the second letter to the Corinthians Paul again speaks of the need for the Corinthians to "examine" themselves...2Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. What does this mean?In ChristJeff

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.What is Paul teaching here? What is the underlying precept for why we are to continually commemorate His death? In ChristJeff

I think, now it is me thinking, that communion is an awesome, dignified event. And it should be considered an event. As the Lords death was an event so should this meal. Isn't a cool picture to see the bread as one solid piece of bread prior to breaking it, it is distributed to all present in smaller pieces, yet still apart of that original lump of bread. Christ is that bread, the bread from Heaven. As He is us so we are in Him, as we are many people but in one body. Is Paul alluding to this fact of the bread when he talks about many members but one body? Then look at the wine. Where does it come from but a grape vine. Grapes are pulled off, mashed together and poured in a cup (simply put) and it becomes one drink. So the blood of Christ is one drink to all. I can't put it into any greater words than that. I am sure there are more explanation than that and maybe some high-fallutin', theological words that could wrap it up better, but from a simple untrained person, in which the Spirit of Christ dwells, that is what I get out of it. Can there be any truth to what transubstantiation stands for? AS the catholics believe? Jesus says, "This is my body...this is my blood." Jesus is not saying, this is a symbol of my blood or a symbol of my body, but rather, "this is!" It seems to me the catholics have it half right and the christians have it half right. Any more thoughts out there?

Brother Ruach34 wrote: Is Paul alluding to this fact of the bread when he talks about many members but one body? Then look at the wine. Where does it come from but a grape vine. Grapes are pulled off, mashed together and poured in a cup (simply put) and it becomes one drink. So the blood of Christ is one drink to all.This is a very clear description of what will happen in the body of Christ if the individual members do as Paul exhorts them to do.Communion with Christ will bring unity to the body. But what is it that prevents this unity? Jesus says, "This is my body...this is my blood." Jesus is not saying, this is a symbol of my blood or a symbol of my body, but rather, "this is!" It seems to me the catholics have it half right and the christians have it half right. Any more thoughts out there?I think of it just the opposite, the catholics have it half wrong and the protestants have it half wrong. For if we would enter into communion with our Lord, we would not have to worry about doctrines. We would find much joy in fellowship with our Lord and one another. Unity in Christ is a result of knowing Him.In ChristJeff

I guess it depends on how you look at your cup, either half empty or half full. They are both wrong, you cannot receive half of Christ in you. When Christ is born again in the believer, we get all of Him. When we are baptized into the Holy Spirit our Comforter Teacher, we get all of Him. We have God the Father in us also. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.Where are we to Go? John 14:28-29 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.To the Cross and receive the fullness of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Not Half, but ALL. IN Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: When Christ is born again in the believer, we get all of Him. When we are baptized into the Holy Spirit our Comforter Teacher, we get all of Him.Paul wrote to the Galatians 4:19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. These people began in the Spirit but what happened to them? In ChristJeff

Brother Steve wrote:In these traditions, the ceremony is seen not as a specific channel of divine grace but as an expression of faith and obedience of the Christian community.I believe the Lord intended it to be a "divine channel of grace." Jesus is Lord of the Sabbaoth. What might He reveal to one concerning faith and obedience? In ChristJeff

Quote; Jeff wrote: "These people began in the Spirit but what happened to them?" They were being coaxed back into the Jewish way of worship and the keeping of the Law. Paul is persuaded that they will overcome in Christ Jesus, and helps them understand how to do it, and what would happen to those that were trying to put the yoke of bondage upon them again, and keep them from the liberty in Christ. The ones that troubled them receive there judgement. Galatians 5:1-10 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Steve wrote:The Catholics can believe whatever they please, but I will continue to take Communion in remebrance of Christ, and in what He did for me on the Cross and at the resurrection.I agree with you in terms of your thoughts concerning the Catholic traditions. Paul teaches us that there is more than remembrance of what He did and is doing in us. This same precept is also written in 1 John 1:1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. The idea of confessing our sins to our Lord is taught by both Paul and John. Paul writes, 1 Cor. 11:1Cor. 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you:He himself received it from Jesus...1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. There seems to be more to the thought of how we should remember our Lord.IN ChristJeff

Brother Phillip quoted:Galatians 5:1-10 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. So one has to stand fast in the liberty that makes us free. Otherwise we can fall back into the yoke of bondage. In ChristJeff

Brother Steve wrote:I really don't understand exactly what you are trying to say. As a Christian, with a personal relationsip with Jesus Christ, we are to confess our sins to Him everday of the week, at all times. We are to confess them when we think an evil thought or of doing an evil deed, even though we don't follow through with the act. We are also to confess them when we do commit the act of sin.I here what you are saying that we should do. I myself fall short. But the intent of this discussion is to point out in a sense, what most do not do. All that you have said is correct. Yet Paul found that the Corinthians were not living according to the call of Christ in their life. This is the emphasis made by Paul and not me. 1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. What kind of sickness is Paul talking about here in those who have Christ?In ChristJeff

"""So one has to stand fast in the liberty that makes us free. Otherwise we can fall back into the yoke of bondage."""This is the bondage of our minds. We can never fall in to the bondage of Satan ever again. Our birthing is Christ in us by the Seed of our Father. At the instant of our birthing we got the whole bucket of Grace, Christ in us, The Holy Spirit teaching all things that Christ gives Him for us, Instant full heirs by our adoption into the Family of God, Christ was made all things to us pertaining to salvation and godliness. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:Check this out very carefully, In Christ, He made us the wisdom of God. WOW! God in Christ made us the righteousness of God. Even more WOW! God in Christ put us to the intension of what God intended us to be before the foundation of the world, to that intent Christ in us with the full capacity of the Nature of God, WOW, now that is sanctification. God in Christ redeemed us, not just saved us but made us all that Christ is, and ever will be. Now that is a son of God, and we will keep finding out that the more we know Him the more we have available and will become in Christ to the Father, not by my works but by His. Paul's statement: "To know Him" and to preach Christ and Him Crucified is so much more than we even conceive or think. 2Cr 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me. 2Cr 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but [we do] all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. As we do for each other.Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,In Christ: According to the Power that works in us, Phillip

Christinyou wrote:"""So one has to stand fast in the liberty that makes us free. Otherwise we can fall back into the yoke of bondage."""This is the bondage of our minds.We can never fall in to the bondage of Satan ever again.This is bondage to the Law, not our minds.Christ was made all things to us pertaining to salvation and godliness.2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:At the instant of our birthing we got the whole bucket of Grace,We still need more gace though!Hebrews 4:16[ Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.Check this out very carefully, In Christ, He made us the wisdom of God. PhillipYou'd better look at that verse "very carefully" again.1Corinth 1:30 But by Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,It says that Jesus is the wisdom of God to us.

"""You'd better look at that verse "very carefully" again.1Corinth 1:30 But by Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,It says that Jesus is the wisdom by God to us."""That is the difference in the NIV and KJV, or what ever version you are using, taking Christ out of us by birthing and putting Him to us by our own faith which will not work. Became to us, or made unto us. Became is of us, made unto us is of God. Also "by Him" takes it out of being Christ in us "Of Him". 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:KJVThis to, speaks for itself.NIV: 2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:KJV: 2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; ((seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;)) whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust."Partakers of His Devine Nature" is His own Glory in us by His Spirit. Not called to Glory1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.1 Corinthians 1:23-24 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness; but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.Where is our power? Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.Colossians 1:27-28 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;This is our birthright from God. Without it we will never understand the thing of God. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."by the Word of God", who is the Word of God? John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.Christ is the Word, Christ is the Incorruptable Seed in us, Christ is our wisdom, Christ is our righteousness, Christ is our sanctification, Christ is our redemption. In Christ, our ALL: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:Christ is the Word, Christ is the Incorruptable Seed in us, Christ is our wisdom, Christ is our righteousness, Christ is our sanctification, Christ is our redemption. In Christ, our ALL: PhillipAmen, brother.I would like to add that Christ is our God, Christ is our brother, Christ is our friend.

Brother Phillip wrote:This is the bondage of our minds. We can never fall in to the bondage of Satan ever again. Our birthing is Christ in us by the Seed of our Father. At the instant of our birthing we got the whole bucket of Grace, Christ in us,When you point out that, "This is the bondage of our minds," I would also inject the word "carnal." What does Scripture say of the carnal mind? We have a choice. Paul writes, Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. We do have all things in Christ, yet Paul continues to warn those who live according to the carnal mind. In ChristJeff

Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:It is Christ that brings wisdom to man though the Holy Spirit. It is we who have access to this wisdom by faith. 1Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, The substance of this grace is wisdom and it come to us by Christ Jesus. We are not Christ Jesus...we are sons of God being conformed into His image by the effective working of this grace for those who obey.Paul writes that some of these Corinthians were sick. Is Paul speaking of a physical sickness or a spiritual sickness? In ChristJeff

Br. Logic wrote:This is bondage to the Law, not our minds.When we live according to our carnal mind we are then under the bondage of the Law...In ChristJeff

"""So one has to stand fast in the liberty that makes us free. Otherwise we can fall back into the yoke of bondage."""Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.Put this verse in context, it is bondage to the Law and not our minds.If you want to mention about our carnal mind, refer to Romans 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.However, the carnal mind accords to the flesh: Galatians 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, :21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like......On the other hand you did sayThis is the bondage of our mindswhich seems to be diferent than what I just gave.I think you meant false beliefes and lies that are accepted that keep souls in bondage which the Truth shall set free.this is another subject all together.

What breaks this carnal mind? 2 Peter 1:2-11 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."PARTAKERS OF DEVINE NATURE"What are we to add to our Faith that MAKES US DEVINE PARTAKERS OF THIS GOD NATURE, it comes by Jesus Christ that is birthed in us? Adding first Virtue, what is virtue? Strongs says, it is most "excellent manly praise". Then where do we go? The knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by the Teaching of the Holy Spirit. Then where? With this great knowledge of Christ in us the Hope of Glory we must become temperate, this knowledge puffs up and we must not show this puffiness in our presenting the Gospel of Christ in you The Hope of Glory. Then Where?To Temperance add patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. Well we finally made it. All that Christ is that is in us and Whom we seek, The Seed of Him in Knowledge, and kindly dealing with each other and the world, Love, Love, Love. Jeff you are right we are not the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ. There is only One begotten Son of the Father, but He has been birthed in each one of Us and by our new nature, We have become son's of God, with all the attributes and possibilities of Christ at our grasp. Let us keep our minds on these things and the Fruit of Christ by the Holy Spirit will rule our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Then we are becoming: Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is a present statement, not a becoming statement, "Be ye Therefore Perfect", and even as our Father is? How can this be? By The Perfect presents of Jesus Christ in each one of us who have been born again by this Seed of the Father.Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. This is a present statement, not a becoming statement, "Be ye Therefore Perfect", and even as our Father is? How can this be? By The Perfect presents of Jesus Christ in each one of us who have been born again by this Seed of the Father.In Christ: Phillip When Christ said this, He was instructing us in the sermon on the mount. Therefore this would be an obediance statement:If it were just a "present statement" wouldnt' it say, "Ye are Perfect"?It sais Be ye Perfect, therefore, the question is How?By doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:16We also need to be patient: James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.And to bridel our toungue James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Hello Logic,Quote:"When Christ said this, He was instructing us in the sermon on the mount. Therefore this would be an obediance statement:If it were just a "present statement" wouldnt' it say, "Ye are Perfect"?It sais Be ye Perfect, therefore, the question is How?By doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:16First, The sermon on the Mt. Is the addition of perfection to the complete fulfillment Of the law. No man can do what Christ did by the Law. No man can even come close, and that is completed by Christs' statements when He said, "but I Say".Where is the perfection then? It can only be in one place. That is by the Perfect Seed of Christ in us. Man on his own cannot keep Moses' Law or the Moral Law of God. There is only One that keeps the Perfect Law of God and that is Christ. Perfection is not attainable in the seed of man, only Perfection is attained by the Perfect, and Christ is the only Perfect. Then how are we to be Perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect? By the Perfect Seed planted in us at birth. Not like Nicodemus going back into his mothers womb, but by the Spirit of Christ the Seed of the Father and His Life Born Again in us. Now we can say we are Perfect in Spirit, becoming Perfect in soul (MIND) and will be Perfect on Resurrection morning. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];Our Life is Christ: 1 John 5:11-20 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. This is the Perfect of Matthews statement by Christ.1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.Who's Seed remaineth in him? Christ's Seed remains in us.John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the (((Son of God is come,))) and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Where are we born again from and into? We are born again in Spirit by the Seed of God. Is God Spirit? Absolutely, By the Incorruptable Seed of A Spiritual Father by The Spiritual Seed of Jesus Christ, The Seed of God.The Question is not how we do it, but in Who we are. By knowing who we are, we are perfect. Our mind is now the Mind of Christ in soul and we are renewing it in patience to perfection that is the Mind of Christ, which we now have.We have the Mind of Christ and the Renewer, The Holy Spirit in us and the Father is there also.John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.What are His Words? John 14:26-29 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.Is He Come? YES!!!!! John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.This is not logical but spiritual declaration of Jesus Christ Himself. "I IN THEM" Holy Spirit revelation.In Christ: Phillip

Brothe Logic wrote:which seems to be diferent than what I just gave.I think you meant false beliefes and lies that are accepted that keep souls in bondage which the Truth shall set free.this is another subject all together.The manifestations that you quoted from Galatian are a result of something much more basic. We miss the mark, the righteousness of Christ, without hearing the Holy Spirit. The carnal mind can know that God's laws are wonderful yet without the Holy Spirit's guidance we will always miss the mark. Paul in Chapter 7 of Romans explains this and summarizes this whole chapter in this verse... 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. In our carnal mind, we know that nothing good can come from us. In our carnal mind we strive to do what the word of God teaches us. Yet what does Paul pin point as his short commings? "but how to perform what is good I do not find." This is in essences the reason why we ourselves, in our own carnal mind, cannot perform what is considered righteous before God. It is only by the Holy Spirit's guidance, sharing God's mind with us, that we are told how to "perform what is good." This is the liberty that Christ speaks of. The Holy Spirit frees us from our carnal mind by giving us the guidance that comes from our Lord Jesus Christ.In ChristJeff

rookie:&Christinyou:Amen & Amen!!!!I love those verses 1John 3:9 & John 5:18

Hi Jeff, I agree and just add more evidence.You quoted: "but how to perform what is good I do not find." We must not leave it there, Paul also said, "Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.""I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" He will deliver us from this body of death and He giving the Holy Spirit for us what we need to overcome this performance and teach us even how to over come this not know how to perform that which is good. 1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. God knows how to perform in us that which is pleasing to Him. 1 Corinthians 3:17-18 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. Our foolishness is to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit He requested from the Father to teach us all things that are in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.Let us not misuse the Holy Spirit. He is our Teacher and the Power of The Mind of Christ that is in us. But the Holy Spirit is not Christ. Christ is our Life and the Holy Spirit is the Mover and Shaker and Teacher of what Christ is and by His life we live. 1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by Him. Taught by the Holy Spirit. Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The Holy Spirit withhold nothing, even the power to overcome the how to, "how to perform what is good I do not find." In self no, but in Christ by the Holy Spirit, Yes. Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Even things we don't understand of even thought of, The Holy Spirit will reveal even this to us. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.This idea of being blind and forgetting that one was purged from his old sins, also speaks to the what Paul is teaching to the Corinthians and James to the dispersed. 1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. In all three of these sections of Scripture we find that what I believe speaks to being spiritually sick. The idea of being perfect to me the way I understand it, is not found in our corrupt bodies but in our understanding that comes from living in fellowship with the "Life."Paul exhorts the PhillipiansPhil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil. 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. There is a sense of progression in terms of maturity. Paul is always stressing this point. Just like Peter whom you quoted above: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.What do you see concerning this idea of spiritual sickness?In ChristJeff

I just found another Scripture which speaks of the need of healing because of sickness...Heb. 12:12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. In ChristJeff

Our hearts and minds are separated by the two edged sword. That is the Heart of our Spirit is Christ and the heart of our soul is The Holy Spirit. We must see that a spirit is not the same as a soul. They are one in our body of flesh as Christ is one in our Spirit and the Holy Spirit is one in our soul. The Spirit of Christ is in us, that being who we are in spirit. The mind has The Holy Spirit dealing with our soul, that being what we were and who we are becoming. The flesh still has the old body pulls, but the Spirit is a new creature in Christ Jesus. The old body pulls that are left over from our old nature, was our nature when we were of our father the devil. The new Spirit pulls are showing us how to overcome the old man we used to be. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus and becoming new creatures in and by His presence which is now our spirit joined to His Spirit which is our new life in Christ Jesus. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me. This is who we are, not what we are by what we did. The Holy Spirit is now responsible to exchange what we were to what we are by Whom we are, In Christ is the Whom. In the Spirit is Whom we are becoming. Who we are is a Person, Jesus Christ is that Person. What does Born Again mean. New birth of the living water of Christ and by the Spirit of Christ. Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [Him] (Christ), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;What we were, to who we are becoming.Ephesians 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;This who we are becoming in Christ Jesus by the power of The Holy Spirit which is in our soul mind and bringing us to the Perfection which is in our spirit in complete union with The Spirit of Christ that is now our spirit.Colossians 3:10-12 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge (in soul mind)after the image of Him (Spirit) that created Him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;We are coming to this Mind which is in Christ Jesus and Powered by the Holy Spirit, our Teacher, the empowering One. 1 John 5:12-13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. The Son is our life and the Father's Seed in us is the greatest act of Love the World will ever know. This is the Spirit of Christ In us. "that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." This is the work of the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Colossians 3:14-18 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him. Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on Love, which is the bond of perfectness.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:We are coming to this Mind which is in Christ Jesus and Powered by the Holy Spirit, our Teacher, the empowering One. 1 John 5:12-13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. The Son is our life and the Father's Seed in us is the greatest act of Love the World will ever know. This is the Spirit of Christ In us. "that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." This is the work of the Holy Spirit.Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Here Paul teaches about a battle between the Spirit and the flesh. Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Here Paul exhorts us who live in the Spirit, to also walk...Gal. 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Here Paul speaks of a choice, one brings corruption to the one who sows to the flesh, the other one who sows to the Spirit recieves everlasting life. This idea of corruption seems to also speak of the other Scripture which talks about being blind, lame, sick, and dead. When Paul writes that one has the choice to sow according to the flesh and that this act brings corruption, to me this person has life in the Spirit and does not obey the Spirit. The disobedience brings on spiritual sickness.What do you think?In ChristJeff

"The disobedience brings on spiritual sickness."What do you think?I would rather say obedience brings spiritual life.Is this not what we are to keep our minds on.Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I guess it depends on whether your cup is half full or half empty. Be ye filled.Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.I would rather keep my mind on these things and share them with the brethren and leave the things of the world to God. 1 Corinthians 13:4-13 Charity (Christ) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (Christ) envieth not; charity (Christ) vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, (Christ) then that which is in part shall be done away. (The in part has been done away with) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, (In Christ)I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then (IN CHRIST) face to face: now I know in part; but then (IN CHRIST)shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, (Christ) these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Christ)Is Come.1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.Is He come in flesh, not has He come, or He did come in the Flesh, but is (present tense) He come in flesh. Our Temple is flesh and Christ is in this temple, but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Christ has come in the Flesh of Men and quickened these bodies to House His Spirit that lives in us."All things work together for good to those that are called according to His purpose.""He who's mind is kept on thee, thou shall keep him in perfect peace. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:I would rather say obedience brings spiritual life.Is this not what we are to keep our minds on.The OT Scriptures are given to us as an example so that we may not fall as those who heard the gospel during Moses's time and died in the wilderness. Likewise those who Isaiah warned...Is. 28:15 \tBecause you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,\tAnd with Sheol we are in agreement.\tWhen the overflowing scourge passes through,\tIt will not come to us,\tFor we have made lies our refuge,\tAnd under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.” Likewise the Pharisees of Jesus' day thought the same...Luke 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Likewise James warns us of the same....14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Going back to the parable of the seed, the first three groups who turned away from God first became spiritually sick did they not? Others were healed and stand as a testimony of Christ's work in them...In ChristJeff

Christinyou wrote:"The disobedience brings on spiritual sickness."What do you think?I would rather say obedience brings spiritual life.Is this not what we are to keep our minds on.No, not obediance & dissobediance nor Flesh & spirit.We can never please GOD dwelling on iether of them.The only thing, or I should say The only person we should keep our minds on is Christ and Him alone, Jesus.The problem comes when we keep our minds obediance & dissobediance or Flesh & spirit; we become cursed with the law.We must not resolve anything but to come to Jesus and love God, that will keep us from sin. If we resolve anything else we come under the law because any effort on our part is following the law, and there is a curse for that Rom 10:4-5 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. :5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Here is another Scripture which speaks of sickness...Is. 1:3 \tThe ox knows its owner\tAnd the donkey its master’s crib;\tBut Israel does not know,\tMy people do not consider.” 4 \tAlas, sinful nation,\tA people laden with iniquity,\tA brood of evildoers,\tChildren who are corrupters!\tThey have forsaken the LORD,\tThey have provoked to anger\tThe Holy One of Israel,\tThey have turned away backward. 5 \tWhy should you be stricken again?\tYou will revolt more and more.\tThe whole head is sick,\tAnd the whole heart faints. In ChristJeff

Thinking about sin and sacrifice and the Law and Sabbaths and on and on, did not get Israel anywhere.Acts 28:25-29 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, (This "one word" is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, Paul's Gospel) Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.Let us keep our minds on Loving our Father, Loving His Christ, and Loving the Holy Spirit and He will keep our minds of the salvation of God sent to us. God quickeneth all things including our minds, our Love, our obedience, our all in Christ Jesus our Lord and Life.What a beautiful word; 2227. zoopoieoSearch for G2227 in KJVSLzwopoiew zoopoieo dzo-op-oy-eh'-ofrom the same as 2226 and 4160; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):--make alive, give life, quicken.1 Timothy 6:13-21 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. Let us keep what has been committed to our trust.We are not committed to sickness but to Love and Life in Christ Jesus.Philippians 4:4-9 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:What a beautiful word; 2227. zoopoieoSearch for G2227 in KJVSLzwopoiew zoopoieo dzo-op-oy-eh'-ofrom the same as 2226 and 4160; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):--make alive, give life, quicken.This idea reminds of this Scripture...Job 3325 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. Yes Brother you are correct in that we all should dwell on the things of God and His promises to us. Yes this is the path. Yet how many among you brother Phillip live as they believe? How many live a "Life" that testifies of Christ's work in their lives? How many among you seem to be sick?In ChristJeff

Quote: by Jeff, just for him. Job 3325 His flesh shall be young like a child’s,He shall return to the days of his youth. 26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, (Jeff, and me too)He shall see His face with joy,For He restores to man His righteousness. "Yet how many among you brother Phillip live as they believe? How many live a "Life" that testifies of Christ's work in their lives? How many among you seem to be sick?"Is that not up to God to send those that have the Words of Healing to the Lost and suffering?Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.Luk 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He will send us, our responsibility is to Hear Ye Him and Go.Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.Where is Christ in this world? Ask and He will send us as Him.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.Where is Christ in this world? Ask and He will send us as Him.Ask and He will send us as He sent Christ...Christ is the One who heals, we can sow and water. Psa. 6:2 \tHave mercy on me, O LORD, for I am weak;\tO LORD, heal me, for my bones are troubled. Psa. 30:2 \tO LORD my God, I cried out to You,\tAnd You healed me. Psa. 38:3 \tThere is no soundness in my flesh\tBecause of Your anger,\tNor any health in my bones\tBecause of my sin. Psa. 41:4 \tI said, “LORD, be merciful to me;\tHeal my soul, for I have sinned against You.” Psa. 103:3 \tWho forgives all your iniquities,\tWho heals all your diseases, Psa. 107:20 \tHe sent His word and healed them,\tAnd delivered them from their destructions. Psa. 147:3 \tHe heals the brokenhearted\tAnd binds up their wounds. Christ is our Salvation... Amen BrotherIn ChristJeff

Does Scripture teach that "a new creation" can become spiritually sick? If one again considered the parable of the sower, and look to Scripture which speaks of those who received the word in their heart and yet do not become fruitful. Then consider the exhortations of the Apostles, how they taught about spiritual sickness, how then do these Scriptures come together?Again here is one exampleHeb. 12:12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. Heb. 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears. Scripture speaks of Esau's fate many times. What did he forsake? What can we forsake? Who alone can heal?In ChristJeff

rookie wrote:Does Scripture teach that "a new creation" can become spiritually sick? If one again considered the parable of the sower, and look to Scripture which speaks of those who received the word in their heart and yet do not become fruitful. Then consider the exhortations of the Apostles, how they taught about spiritual sickness, how then do these Scriptures come together?Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.The reason is that the others didn't understand. Nor did they recieve it with tears of repentance but only with joy.Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and recieve it with joy.They do not concider that they must die and loose their life. Hebrews. 12:12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.strengthen the hands which hang down and lift them up in prayer, thanksgiving and praise:and the feeble knees to pray on with out ceasingand make straight paths for your feet the gospel of peace.We must not only die dayly, but buried out of sight. The stench of the dead self will frighten awy souls for Christ.

Brother Logic wrote:They do not concider that they must die and loose their life. Yes, I believe with you that this does not occur to those of the first three groups in the parable of the sower. Yet I would like to add to this thought. We who follow Christ may begin to try to die to oneself according to the flesh. In this situation, we live in the strenght of the flesh, and therefore cannot please our Lord. We remain trying to make perfect the flesh according to the law. Yet dieing in Christ, I find that as we learn from Him through the Holy Spirit, it is this understanding which enables us to "put to death the deeds of the body."The good soil is created through His work in us. Prov. 9:9 \tGive instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser;\tTeach a just man, and he will increase in learning. 10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. This comes through our life with the Holy Spirit. Proverbs 3:11 \tMy son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,\tNor detest His correction; 12 \tFor whom the LORD loves He corrects,\tJust as a father the son in whom he delights. 13 \tHappy is the man who finds wisdom,\tAnd the man who gains understanding; 14 \tFor her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,\tAnd her gain than fine gold. 15 \tShe is more precious than rubies,\tAnd all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 \tLength of days is in her right hand,\tIn her left hand riches and honor. 17 \tHer ways are ways of pleasantness,\tAnd all her paths are peace. 18 \tShe is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,\tAnd happy are all who retain her. A death to self will come to those who find that "Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace." In ChristJeff

Here is another thought in Scripture pretaining to the parable of the sower, and specifically those who find themselves in the midst of the choking weeds...1Tim. 6:6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. These who stray from the faith are those who seek the treasures of this world..."...rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition." These things that one pursues "drown" men in this Scripture, these things "choke" in the parable of the sower...In ChristJeff

rookie wrote:The good soil is created through His work in us.Wouldn't it be the unsaved who has good soil, since they are just recieving the word to be planted?How is it then, that it would be His work in them who are yet unsaved?I say it is the Law working in them to convict them of sin and how much they need to be saved.Galatians 3:24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Any farmer knows that good soil takes work, the soil of the river bottoms and may be better soil than the desert, but it still takes work to make them grow fruit. Desert can be turned into beautiful land with water and use. River bottom soil must be plowed and leveled and used also to bring forth fruit good eating.

The same is for the unsaved, the Holy Spirit must make the ground able to receive seed. The unsaved does nothing to receive the Seed. When the ground is ready to accept the Seed, The Planter gives Seed and is tended by the farmer to keep weeds and insects and anything else that would keep the Seed from bring forth good fruit.

At the instant of the Seed being planted, the Holy Spirit seals the Seed (Christ) in the ground (believer) and the old weed that was there dies and the new Seed, Incorruptable begins its work Old seed out (Satan) new Seed in (Christ).

The Great Farmer, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, have done the work to prepare the soil to receive the Incorruptable Seed of the Son of God. Then a complete new plant brings for good fruit. A new creature in Christ Jesus. The soil did nothing. The Law could never change the weed, Only by the Grace of God and the Power of the Seed of Christ and the Teaching of the Holy Spirit is a new creature born again by Christ in them.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Logic wrote:

I say it is the Law working in them to convict them of sin and how much they need to be saved.

Did any of us know the depth of Scripture and what power the Scripture has to conform us into His death when we first believed?

We, in this generation have been taught, to try to point to a specific moment in life and we ourselves declare we are saved. Scripture teaches that God speaks His promises to us through the Holy Spirit.

In the parable of the sower what does it say of those whose hearts represent the good soil?

Luke 8
15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Matthew 13:

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Understanding that is brought about with patience bears fruit.

Have to go, out of time...

In Christ
Jeff

2Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

Paul teaches that we are a new creation, yet he also teaches of the inward man being renewed day by day.

In the parable of the sower, the first three groups do not continue in this growth which Paul speaks of here in 2 Cor: 4:16. The last group continues on in the word that is planted in them. The outward man is perishing, that is the hopes he once had are dieing. The inward man is being renewed daily, that is God is changing the substance of what the inner man hopes for.

What is the result? The bearing of fruit.

In Christ
Jeff

2Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

What is the nature of the work that takes place in "the inward man" who "is being renewed day by day."

Why is this necessary in the life of the believer?

In Christ
Jeff

2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him: This new man is Christ in us, and yet individual in all that we are before God our Father as individual as each snow flake, son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Dorcas wrote:

We can decide to go against how we are feeling and thinking, and we can force the body to do what it should, until the old mindset is broken. That is hard work, but, sometimes, if one has chosen, knowingly, to sin in the past, one has to keep choosing not to sin, until "to sin" does not present itself as an option.

The combination of the new mind and new action, is how the inner man is strengthened through obedience to the Spirit.

How does what you have said above reflect the Scripture below?

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

When wisdom enters your heart, and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you,

6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Dorcas wrote:

He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.

Yes!

It is He that has always preserved the way of His saints.
Wisdom and understanding enables the saints.

As you described the process in the earlier post, this Scripture also portrays what you yourself have come to understand...

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,

This instruction given to us by Solomon points to the process of "renewing the mind daily." The outward man will also diminish as a result of this process. If the death of the outward man is the focus, we live according to the law given on Mount Sinai. If the death is the result of the process of "the renewing of the mind daily," then we live according to the law of liberty.

In Christ
Jeff

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

"The Yoke of bondage is the Law of sin and death.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Christ is the Law of Liberty, free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This Scripture comes to mind which speaks of knowing the Holy One...

Prov. 9:10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

To know Christ through the law of the Spirit is to understand the liberty which frees us from the bondage of sin...

In Christ
Jeff

I wrote:

This instruction given to us by Solomon points to the process of "renewing the mind daily." The outward man will also diminish as a result of this process. If the death of the outward man is the focus, we live according to the law given on Mount Sinai. If the death is the result of the process of "the renewing of the mind daily," then we live according to the law of liberty.

This Scripture defines what I have said above...

Prov. 14:14 \tThe backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways,
\tBut a good man will be satisfied from above.

To be described as a backslider, one first has had to travel the path with our Lord. A heart that continues to be filled with the ways of the carnal mind, a heart that may even seek to mortify the lusts of the flesh in one's own understanding will always be considered to be backslidden. The most perfect way is found when the heart seeks to be satisfied from above. The source of this grace will overcome the outward man. The satisfaction that comes from above replaces the old man's desires for his own ways; with the discovery of the grace that finds it's roots in the Life of our Savior. The Holy One will direct the Holy Spirit to give us what is His. The substance of this wisdom is Christ.

In Christ
Jeff

Dorcas: What wonderful truth in the Yoke of Freedom.

Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The whole Word of God is so alive and wonderful, but we have this Advocate with the Father. In being the only way to the Father, not by seeking God in a Temple made with hands and sacrificing the blood of animals for the temporary covering of sin. The Advocate in this scripture is pointing to the Parakletos, The Comforter, the Intercessor, The One that Sent the Holy Spirit, The direct representation of Jesus Christ and the Father, The Holy Spirit Parakletos who speaks of Jesus Christ and reveals Him that is birthed in us.

1 John 2:1-5 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

What are His commandments? Love commandments, if we do them we know that we love Him. I think of them as Freedom Commandments, New Creature Commandments. This truly is of Freedom. What a difference from the yoke of bondage, the law bondage.

Being set free, In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

"The Yoke of bondage is the Law of sin and death.

The Yoke of bondage is just the Law, the Law of sin and death is something different.

This verse best describs The Yoke of bondage:
[b]Colosians 2:14[/b] [color=990000]Blotting out [b]the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us[/b], and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [/color]

The Law of sin and death is a result of the law working in us to show us the need of salvation.

[b]Galatians 3:21,22[/b] [color=990000]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[b]:22[/b] But the scripture has concluded [b]all is under sin[/b], that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.[/color]

The law shows us that we are all under sin and the penalty there of is death.
That is the law of sin and death.

So, in other words, the Yoke of bondage brings to light the Law of sin and death.

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Advocate in this scripture is pointing to the Parakletos, The Comforter, the Intercessor, The One that Sent the Holy Spirit, The direct representation of Jesus Christ and the Father, The Holy Spirit Parakletos who speaks of Jesus Christ and reveals Him that is birthed in us.

This is what Solomon wrote about in this Scripture...

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,

When wisdom enters your heart... the substance is Christ.

In Christ
Jeff

Br. Logic wrote:

So, in other words, the Yoke of bondage brings to light the Law of sin and death.

This is how I understand it also...there is much that gets confused when we speak of "the law."

Have you ever considered this Scripture:

Genesis 26

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

In Christ
Jeff

Because that Abraham cobeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What charge was Abraham given, What did God tell Abraham to do, What was Gods charge to Abraham, what were Gods commandments at that time, what were Gods statutes for Abraham, and what Were Gods Laws for Abraham before the Law of Moses was given?

What is Egypt for? Abraham to go to Egypt Isaac not to go to Egypt and Jacob to God into Egypt.

e 26:5
Ver. 5. Here was a covenant made between God and Abraham; and as, if Abraham had broken the condition of walking before God required on his part, God had been discharged from the promise made on his part; so contrarily, because Abraham performed his condition and believed God and Abraham offering his son Isaac God engageth Himself to perform His promise to him, and to his seed. But as that promise and covenant was made by God of grace, as is evident and confessed; so the mercies promised and performed to Abraham and his are so great and vast, that it is an idle thing to think they could be merited by so mean a compensation as Abraham's obedience, which was a debt that he owed to God. So if there had been no such covenant or promise made by God, and which also was an effect of God's graces to him and in him, there would be no Seed, not as of seeds but of Christ the Seed. So it was not Abraham's righteousness, it was because he obeyed God in the offering of his son Isaac, which is a perfect picture of what God was going to do with His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, that all might be saved that believed in Him.

Abraham's righteousness was only reckoned to him, just like our righteousness has been made by the Christ that is birthed in us, not of works lest any man should boast. We cannot boast and either can Abraham.

Because of God's Grace just like Abraham, God see's in us the righteousness of His covenant of the Seed Jesus Christ in us as our righteousness.
There is no righteousness in any person no not one. So this scripture is of God's Grace because Abraham believed God when he offered his son and believed God. Abraham's sacrifice was earthly, and even then and earthly ram was given in Isaac's place, which is the temple offerings later to come by the Law of Moses.

There is such a Grace in Christ Jesus that no other beings have received, which is Heavenly and our lives are put in all blessing and changes in us that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We are a complete new creature in Christ Jesus which Abraham did not have and will not have until Christ reigns on David's Throne on this earth, of which we are not part of except to rule and reign with Christ from our heavenly place already being prepared for those that are in Christs Jesus, which is our hope of Glory. Abraham's hope of glory is earthly the Born Again Hope of Glory is Christ in you, heavenly.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

We must rightly divide the scripture and see the Great Grace and blessing we have wrought in Christ Jesus that is Born Again in us that the Jewish high Priest did not even understand.
John 3:10-12 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Do we understand so great salvation we have received in Christ Jesus? Ephesians 1:4-9 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:

Notice all the capitals, H

We cannot mix Abraham and Christ, it just won't work, God has to this made it clear, our only salvation is in Christ and If we don't have Christ in us the Hope of Glory, we are still Abraham's children, not son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip asked:

What charge was Abraham given, What did God tell Abraham to do, What was Gods charge to Abraham, what were Gods commandments at that time, what were Gods statutes for Abraham, and what Were Gods Laws for Abraham before the Law of Moses was given?

This is what Abraham experienced in his relationship with his God.

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.

This section of Scripture defines the substance of His grace and what that grace enables those whom He foreknew to become.

By what means has God provided for us to understand the righteousness that exists in God? Will the grace of God create in His saints anything other than Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Here is another example, this time just the opposite of what Abraham experienced.

Isaiah 30:

Is. 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” says the LORD,
\t\t“Who take counsel, but not of Me,
\tAnd who devise plans, but not of My Spirit,
\tThat they may add sin to sin;

Here Scripture teaches us that those who rebelled devised their own plans. These children did not listen to the One who counsels.

Later on in this Chapter...

Isaiah 30:

8 \tNow go, write it before them on a tablet,
\tAnd note it on a scroll,
\tThat it may be for time to come,
\tForever and ever:
9 \tThat this is a rebellious people,
\tLying children,
\tChildren who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 \tWho say to the seers, “Do not see,”
\tAnd to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
\tSpeak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 \tGet out of the way,
\tTurn aside from the path,
\tCause the Holy One of Israel
\tTo cease from before us.”

This all points to the grace of God and the faith of men. Do
we accept the words of the Counselor as did Abraham, or do we rebell as those who God judged in the generation that live around 562 BC?

In Christ
Jeff

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Quote: Jeff: "This is what Abraham experienced in his relationship with his God."

Where does it say that?

This is what Christ did on this earth as Jesus of Nazareth the man whom we know no more as a man but as God in us.

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.

There is only one Son that accomplished wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. That was Christ Jesus at the Cross. Abraham did not have any Idea that Christ would be born of a Virgin, Offer Himself to Abraham's children, be crucified by them, die on a cross, be resurrected, ascended, and return in the Born Again Children of God. Abraham was called on this earth to be the father of all that believed that God is One God, and this was Abraham's great purpose. He also was the father of us all in this belief, that God is One God.

Abraham could not have Christ in him as we do. The Messiah to Abraham was the promise of him being the father Of many nations as in the 12 tribes of Israel.

Romans 4:3-6 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Ro 4:4
Verse 4. Now to him that worketh, etc. This passage is not to be understood as affirming that any actually have worked out their salvation by conformity to the law so as to be saved by their own merits; but it expresses a general truth in regard to works. On that plan, if a man were justified by his works, it would be a matter due to him.

Because of Abraham's believing God (faith) it was made unto him righteousness (reckoned). Because of our believing what God says about Jesus Christ, He is made our righteousness by the Father birthing Him in us.

Jeff, why don't you look for Christ in the New Testament, this is where we will find Him for the Body of Christ the Church and individuals thereof. Four fifths of the Bible is for the world and Israel and have good teaching about the Christ to come and good for reproof and morals and knowing God and who He is. Only one fifth of the bible is for the Church the Body of Christ. The Gospel of John and his epistles, all of Paul's Gospel including Hebrews, some of Peter, especially Peter's epistles.

The Old Testament is wonderful and the leading of God to the Christ that is in us with mysteries and shadows. The completion of Christ and His Work in us is what I have stated above. Especially the Mystery of Paul,

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

In the Mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

There is only one Son that accomplished wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. That was Christ Jesus at the Cross. Abraham did not have any Idea that Christ would be born of a Virgin, Offer Himself to Abraham's children, be crucified by them, die on a cross, be resurrected, ascended, and return in the Born Again Children of God.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

How might one understand this testimony of Jesus in light of your testimony Phillip?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff Wrote: Quote;

"John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

How might one understand this testimony of Jesus in light of your testimony Phillip?"

In Christ
Jeff

Phillips Testimony.

"There is only one Son that accomplished wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. That was Christ Jesus at the Cross. Abraham did not have any Idea that Christ would be born of a Virgin, Offer Himself to Abraham's children, be crucified by them, die on a cross, be resurrected, ascended, and return in the Born Again Children of God."

Yes Jeff, Jews that ask Jesus if He was better than their father Abraham, were of their father Abraham and We are of our Father God and His Son. Even Jesus took away father Abraham and said pray in this way: Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Not our father Abraham which art in the grave. John 8:53-54 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Big difference Abraham is "dead", Christ is alive in us.

Abraham did rejoice to see the day of Christ, but he did not have Christ and the Father in him. Abraham will see the day of Christ when He rules form David's Throne on this earth.

We have the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. John 14:22-23 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If Christ is in us and Christ and the Father are one then both are in us... John 17:11-12 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

And last, that not only are They in us but we are in Them and in each other because of Them. We are not in Abraham, he is dead, and so are his works if God had not proclaimed him righteous. Abraham was only righteous because God declared it, because he believed God and what he said to him about his son Isaac and that God is the only One and True God. That is why Abraham's Faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, but the True Righteousness had not come yet. He Jesus Christ has not come and He is our righteousness not reckoned because we believed but Fact by God's Promise and Proclamation, "Christ has been made in us our righteousness," Now revealed in the believer. Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: He is made our righteousness not reckoned. Reckoned is only how we are to see this truth as fact.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Big difference Abraham is "dead", Christ is alive in us.

Matt. 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Abraham is not the focus, but Christ. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Abraham will see the day of Christ when He rules form David's Throne on this earth.

Matt. 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Is there a difference in the kingdom of heaven spoken of here and what you believe?

In Christ
Jeff

Absolutely not, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be with Christ when He is on the Throne of David and they will be His spokesmen to the Nations of the earth. They will be hear for 1000 years. We will be also but we are ruling and reign from The Fathers House. We are the Heavenly beings seated with Christ in Heavenly places already and all of creation will rejoice at our revealing. Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

In Christ: Phillip

Jeff, what does born again mean to you? Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe the Jesus Christ is all God now and was all man?

Brother Phillip asked:

Jeff, what does born again mean to you? Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you believe in the virgin birth? Do you believe the Jesus Christ is all God now and was all man?

First, being born again and the Life that follows I hope to continue to develop in this thread. Secondly, Yes Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. Thirdly, No, I still believe that Jesus is still man and still God. He still has a body that has the nail marks in His hands and feet. He still has the gash in His side that Thomas examined.

In Christ
Jeff

Being Born Again of what or whom. What follows, what life or whose life?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John's born again:
Born:
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o

from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Again:
509. anothen
Search for G509 in KJVSL
anwqen anothen an'-o-then

from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Peters: born again,
313. anagennao
Search for G313 in KJVSL
anagennaw anagennao an-ag-en-nah'-o

from 303 and 1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again):--beget, (bear) X (again).

Born again of Whom.

Incorruptable:
862. aphthartos
Search for G862 in KJVSL
ajqartoV aphthartos af'-thar-tos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 5351; undecaying (in essence or continuance):--not (in-, un-)corruptible, immortal.

Seed:
4701. spora
Search for G4701 in KJVSL
spora spora spor-ah'

from 4687; a sowing, i.e. (by implication) parentage:--seed.

Who is the seed?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him : and he cannot sin , because he is born of God .

his

Being Born Again of what or whom. What follows, what life or whose life?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John's born again:
Born:
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o

from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Again:
509. anothen
Search for G509 in KJVSL
anwqen anothen an'-o-then

from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Peters: born again,
313. anagennao
Search for G313 in KJVSL
anagennaw anagennao an-ag-en-nah'-o

from 303 and 1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again):--beget, (bear) X (again).

Born again of Whom.

Incorruptable:
862. aphthartos
Search for G862 in KJVSL
ajqartoV aphthartos af'-thar-tos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 5351; undecaying (in essence or continuance):--not (in-, un-)corruptible, immortal.

Seed:
4701. spora
Search for G4701 in KJVSL
spora spora spor-ah'

from 4687; a sowing, i.e. (by implication) parentage:--seed.

Who is the seed?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him : and he cannot sin , because he is born of God .

his

\t
Being Born Again of what or whom. What follows, what life or whose life?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John's born again:
Born:
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o

from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Again:
509. anothen
Search for G509 in KJVSL
anwqen anothen an'-o-then

from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Peters: born again,
313. anagennao
Search for G313 in KJVSL
anagennaw anagennao an-ag-en-nah'-o

from 303 and 1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again):--beget, (bear) X (again).

Born again of Whom.

Incorruptable:
862. aphthartos
Search for G862 in KJVSL
ajqartoV aphthartos af'-thar-tos

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 5351; undecaying (in essence or continuance):--not (in-, un-)corruptible, immortal.

Seed:\t
4701. spora
Search for G4701 in KJVSL
spora spora spor-ah'

from 4687; a sowing, i.e. (by implication) parentage:--seed.

Who is the seed?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for (his) seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

his

Sorry guys, I don't know what happened, had to go to page 2. To finish.

his autos
846. autos
Search for G846 in KJVSL
autoV autos ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare 848.

Remember, Baffling Wind. Autos:

4690. sperma
Search for G4690 in KJVSL
sperma sperma sper'-mah

from 4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication, offspring; specially, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting):--issue, seed

1 Peter 2:2-6 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
\t\t\t\t\t\t
Thereby:
:
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

Remember, Baffling Wind.

846. autos
Search for G846 in KJVSL
autoV autos ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare 848.

"through the idea of a baffling wind)"
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. This is the Holy Spirit.

The Water born of:
Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Who is the Water?
\t
John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst
again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him (shall be in him) a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Again the mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. The Incorruptable Seed of God Himself, birthed in the believer springing up to everlasting life.

The Holy Spirit birthed in us, and the Water, Christ Seed birthed in us.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Revealed by: Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Comforted from where?
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be ((((in you.))))

In Christ and In the Holy Spirit which They Both are in me: Phillip

Brother Phillip,

These are all good definitions of the way God reveals salvation to man. Yet there is much more which pretains to how the word of God is the agent chosen by God to bring man out of the grasps of Satan's world. Throughout Scripture we find that righteousness is of God alone. We find that God gives His righteouness to those He has foreknown before the foundations of this world. We are taught this in the book of Job.

Job 33:

25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.

It is God who establishes His righteousness in man.

Job 15: Teaches us the same principle that Paul teaches us in Romans 3

14 \t“What is man, that he could be pure?
\tAnd he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
15 \tIf God puts no trust in His saints,
\tAnd the heavens are not pure in His sight,
16 \tHow much less man, who is abominable and filthy,
\tWho drinks iniquity like water!

In Job we are taught that there are those who God considers blamless just like those who Paul teaches of...

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

In Job we find that those the Father loves He corrects...

Job 5

17 \t“Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects;
\tTherefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

In this last section of Scripture we find that this correction "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Do you see God's righteousness and the means by which the OT saints reap the fruit of His righteousness?

In Christ
Jeff

Ok Jeff, run back into the old testament but you won't find Christ in them or even a future knowledge that Christ would be in them, another Person would be their life. It was first revealed to Paul. Hidden from all eternity. You can chase all the shadows and promises in the old testament you want to but you cannot put Christ in Abraham or Job.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

No one could be perfect as we can in presenting every man perfect in Christ by the knowledge of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. He is the Perfect one and no one has Him unless he Believes what God has said about His Son. Revealed in Paul, where He has never been before as the resurrected living Son of God that is born again in us.

Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Is He revealed? Paul says so. Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Ok Jeff, run back into the old testament but you won't find Christ in them or even a future knowledge that Christ would be in them, another Person would be their life. It was first revealed to Paul. Hidden from all eternity. You can chase all the shadows and promises in the old testament you want to but you cannot put Christ in Abraham or Job.

Phillip, I asked earlier about the righteousness of God and who alone represents that rightousness. You answered correctly, Jesus Christ. You answered correctly that there is no righteousness in man except for the righteousness that God causes to dwell in man, that righteousness is our Lord.

I have found these Scriptures to affirm what you your self have come to understand. However you somehow do not want to acknowledge that these precepts are also found in the oldest book of the Bible.

The emphasis of this thread is speaking to the incorruptible seed which is the word of God. It is given so that we might grow in our understanding and our relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The word of God is powerful and it will cause one to struggle with how one believes. Yet if one rejects the whole counsel of God, in doing so one is also choosing to remain blind.

Let the word of God, the incorruptible seed sprout in you.

Psalm 119:

7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,
\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 \tI will keep Your statutes;
\tOh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.

In Christ
Jeff

Our Lord commands us to engage in the ordinance of communion. He says to do this in rememberance of Him.

Paul teaches about this practice...

1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Paul teaches that we need to examine ourselves. Why?

Jer. 17:10 \tI, the LORD, search the heart,
\tI test the mind,
\tEven to give every man according to his ways,
\tAccording to the fruit of his doings.

Why does God do this?

Job 36

7 \tHe does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
\tBut they are on the throne with kings,
\tFor He has seated them forever,
\tAnd they are exalted.
8 \tAnd if they are bound in fetters,
\tHeld in the cords of affliction,
9 \tThen He tells them their work and their transgressions—
\tThat they have acted defiantly.
10 \tHe also opens their ear to instruction,
\tAnd commands that they turn from iniquity.

What is the promise for those who listen?

Psa. 32:2 \tBlessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
\tAnd in whose spirit there is no deceit.

In Christ
Jeff

Just like in Job 36 we find the same teaching in Psalm 32:

3 \tWhen I kept silent, my bones grew old
\tThrough my groaning all the day long.
4 \tFor day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
\tMy vitality was turned into the drought of summer.
\t\t\t\tSelah
5 \tI acknowledged my sin to You,
\tAnd my iniquity I have not hidden.
\tI said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,”
\tAnd You forgave the iniquity of my sin.
\t\t\t\tSelah
6 \tFor this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You
\tIn a time when You may be found;
\tSurely in a flood of great waters
\tThey shall not come near him.
7 \tYou are my hiding place;
\tYou shall preserve me from trouble;
\tYou shall surround me with songs of deliverance.
\t\t\t\tSelah
8 \tI will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
\tI will guide you with My eye.
9 \tDo not be like the horse or like the mule,
\tWhich have no understanding,
\tWhich must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
\tElse they will not come near you.
10 \tMany sorrows shall be to the wicked;
\tBut he who trusts in the LORD, mercy shall surround him.
11 \tBe glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous;
\tAnd shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

If we live in the light of these Scriptures, we reap the wisdom that comes from our Lord. Our Lord frees us from living according to the Law of Moses by teaching us, by guiding us, by conveying us from darkness into the light.

Psalm 119:

9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.
10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;
\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,
\tThat I might not sin against You.
12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!
\tTeach me Your statutes.

Ask and you shall receive...

In Christ
Jeff

""What is the promise for those who listen?

Psa. 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.""

Who is the promise for those that hear?

Only one Spirit that has no deceit, The Spirit of Christ that is birthed in you.

Better than being blessed for something none of us can accomplish on our own. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Only one way to be perfect and blessed. Christ being the blessed One that is now our life.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted...

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Paul always points to Christ as our only hope, yet in teaching others Paul gives us insight as to how he views life in this world...

Phil. 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

What is Paul teaching here about himself? "that I may gain Christ"

In Christ
Jeff

Paul richly knew he had Christ in Him and he says all the time that all he wants is Christ. To know Him, preach Him, Christ and Him Crucified, living in the believer, That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. We are seriously missing the truth of what Paul is speaking when we just use Christ as the crutch to bring about Christianity in ourselves by outside influences of Christ only being with us in this place.

Paul uses the first person when he says Christ in you the Hope of Glory and 146 times in the rest of his epistles. It is not our lives we live anymore it Christ in us that is our life. When will we ever get this straight. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me"

Everybody always says Christ is with you and may Christ richly bless you, sweet sweet spirit in this place. This is all completely not what Paul and John are saying. "he who has the Son has life",, 1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

How much more must we hear to believe that we are a new creature, we are Christ Persons' We have a new life in us, Jesus Christ. We are like a new model car, not a fixer upper. We have a life time warranty, eternity.

I have not even started with Paul yet, but I hope you get the Picture of Christ in You The Hope of Glory. How can we not see it? I know I sound like a broken record and I did not see it either until it was revealed by the Holy Spirit. It took 25 year of study to come to the understanding of Christ in me. For six year that revelation has changed my whole life. It is no longer I who live but Christ that live in me. So when the dispensation of time was Wright for Me God by His Holy Spirit revealed His Son in me. Just like Paul. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

How much more must we hear to believe that we are a new creature, we are Christ Persons' We have a new life in us, Jesus Christ. We are like a new model car, not a fixer upper. We have a life time warranty, eternity.

If I may add to your analogy..."We are like a new model car,"

I see it as..."We become newer than a new model car," for "today is the day of salvation."

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Even the "new model car" is not perfected according to what Paul teaches here in this Scripture.

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff

Christ is our Model. New Model in Spirit,Done. becoming a New Model,becoming done, and will be a New Model on resurrection morning, will be done. On earth as it is in Heaven.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. The Flesh.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death,(Model Done.) and doth deliver: (Model being Done) in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; (Model will be Done)

In Christ: Phillip Done,Spirit being Done,soul will be Done.body.

Sorry Phillip for not responding I have been moving all our earthly belongings to Lancaster PA...

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Here Paul is teaching something different than you.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death,(Model Done.) and doth deliver: (Model being Done) in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; (Model will be Done)

You are correct in saying that Christ is the Model...yet we a new creation are not the done Model.

Paul speaks of not apprehending, not being perfected, yet he presses toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Why does Paul go to great lengths to encourage, to exhort, to correct those who are the new creation?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The done model is our spirit. The Being done model is our soul-mind. The will be done model is our body.

You cannot improve on the Spirit of Christ. It is perfect and thus making our being one in spirit by the Spirit of Christ born again in us, that is the done part. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of The Father One Spirit with the Holy Spirit? We know the answer must be Yes, and that from the Word.

Is the Spirit of Christ and our spirit one Spirit? Same answer. Yes, making us the Body of Christ by the same Spirit. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. That is the Spirit of Christ which is now our spirit.

That is the Done part. Do you believe in the tripartite being, that is body, soul, and spirit? Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In Christ: Phillip

Paul writes...

2Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Likewise Isaiah writes...

10 \tI will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
\tMy soul shall be joyful in my God;
\tFor He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
\tHe has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
\tAs a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
\tAnd as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

What does Paul mean by wanting to be clothed? Is he refering to the Holy Spirit as that which clothes him?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip asked:

That is the Done part. Do you believe in the tripartite being,

This doctrine I have not studied....

I have for the most part given up on men's attempts to define these things according to formulas and definitions. I believe in the power of the Holy Scripture which are illuminated by the Holy Spirit...to give understanding according to His time and ways....

This is according to His promise in the new covenant..

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You wrote: ""What does Paul mean by wanting to be clothed? Is he refering to the Holy Spirit as that which clothes him?

In the same frame of mind when he said put on the whole Armour of God. What is the Armour of God. It is Christ working in all three areas of our body, soul, and spirit. That is where I came to the word tripartite man.

Like Paul I want to be clothed with Christ, that is simple, if you have a coat in the closet and don't use it you are unclothed for harsh cold times. Like the Armour. Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
2Cr 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand in the three parts of our being, our body, quickened, our spirit now the Spirit of Christ, our soul mind now filled with the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Stand in the three parts of our being, our body, quickened, our spirit now the Spirit of Christ, our soul mind now filled with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that the body remains corrupt according to Paul's teaching.

1Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1Cor. 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 \t“O Death, where is your sting?
\tO Hades, where is your victory?”

There will come a time where perfection is accomplished.

Heb. 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

In Christ
Jeff

Psalm 119:

130 The entrance of Your words gives light;
\t\tIt gives understanding to the simple.
131 I opened my mouth and panted,
\t\tFor I longed for Your commandments.
132 Look upon me and be merciful to me,
\t\tAs Your custom is toward those who love Your name.
133 Direct my steps by Your word,
\t\tAnd let no iniquity have dominion over me.

"The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple"...Direct my steps by Your word, and let no iniquity have dominion over me."

The psalmist has come to realize, to understand how God's words impact his life. He speaks of light. He speaks of understanding. And then he prays that God continues to direct his steps so that "no iniquity have dominion over" him.

In the teachings of Solomon, listen to the exhortation given to those who love simplicity.

Prov. 1:22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.

Solomon then points to the means by which the simple are delivered from simplicity. In the following Scripture we hear of wisdom, and that God speaks to the simple and the foolish. We hear that the content of what is spoken consists of the truth and not the lie. We hear that the words spoken are righteousness.

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
\tAnd understanding lift up her voice?
2 \tShe takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
\tBeside the way, where the paths meet.
3 \tShe cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
\tAt the entrance of the doors:
4 \t“To you, O men, I call,
\tAnd my voice is to the sons of men.
5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,
\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 \tListen, for I will speak of excellent things,
\tAnd from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 \tFor my mouth will speak truth;
\tWickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 \tAll the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
\tNothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 \tThey are all plain to him who understands,
\tAnd right to those who find knowledge.

We all begin as a child without understanding. Our sins are forgiven, yet salvation grows as we walk the path lighted before us. Listen to the promise which Solomon speaks of.

Proverbs 9:
10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Who according to Scripture is the "Holy One?"

What does knowledge of the Holy One bring to those who hear?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister asked:

Jeff, don't you think this means our 'mortal' bodies are being quickened now? As long as we walk in the Spirit?

I am not schooled in the details of greek and tenses. Upon looking up the word "quickened" strongs placed this word in Romans 8:11 in the future tense.

According to Strongs definition of future tense given here:

5776 Tense - Future

The future tense corresponds to the English future, and
indicates the contemplated or certain occurrence of an event
which has not yet occurred.

If one were to take Romans 8:11 in relation to the Scripture that surrounds it we find something different.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Is Paul teaching that the mortal body benefits from the indwelling Spirit?

Listen to other Scriptures which speak to this idea.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rather I believe Romans 8:11 speaks in the same way as 1 Peter 3:

1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

And 1 Corinthians 15:

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Do you see, according to what is promised in the future, that which Paul is teaching in Romans 8:11. This aspect also is spoken of in the book of Hebrews.

Heb. 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

In Christ
Jeff

Colossians 3:1-5 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is
hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

If we are risen with Christ, our old nature is dead, and now that we have the Mind of Christ, we are the ones that accomplish and do what follows verse 5 in Col 3.

Colossians 3:5-8 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Who mortifies the body? Who puts off all these?
anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. You'd do it.

Colossians 3:9-10 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Who does not lie to one another? Who puts off the old man? Who puts on the new man in Christ Jesus? You'd do it.

The New man is renewed in knowledge. Where is the knowledge after the image of Christ renewed? In your mind by the Holy Spirit with the Spirit of Christ and the Mind of Christ.

Again how is this accomplished. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

We are dead and hid with Christ in God. Christ is our life, and when He appears we will appear with Him in Glory.

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Quicken; 2227. zoopoieo
Search for G2227 in KJVSL
zwopoiew zoopoieo dzo-op-oy-eh'-o

from the same as 2226 and 4160; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):--make alive, give life, quicken.

Shall; Same word in the Greek. 2227. zoopoieo
Search for G2227 in KJVSL
zwopoiew zoopoieo dzo-op-oy-eh'-o

from the same as 2226 and 4160; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):--make alive, give life, quicken.

The only thing that brings Shall and Quicken together is the copulative word also. 2532. kai
Search for G2532 in KJVSL
kai kai kahee

apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

I see no future tense in this "shall also quicken" but a particle, copulative and cumulative in tense. But should read, quicken even therefore also quicken.

Again who does it? "but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." We do it. We do it because we have been quickened by the Spirit of Him so we would have the nature to accomplish the Quickening we have been given.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

If we are risen with Christ, our old nature is dead, and now that we have the Mind of Christ, we are the ones that accomplish and do what follows verse 5 in Col 3.

Why does Paul continue to correct those who have the mind of Christ?

Why did the Ephesians suffer so much correction from Paul and Timothy?

How is it that the Ephesians left their first love?

Is it because they chose to follow the flesh or the Spirit?

The answer is found in this Scripture..

Proverbs 14:14 "The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, but a good man will be satisfied from above."

That is where Christ sits in the heavenlies.
In Christ
Jeff

Jeff, you must know that a change has happened to those in Christ.

Your Question: Quote, "Why did the Ephesians suffer so much correction from Paul and Timothy?"

Answer, They did not know the Christ that was in them. Paul would have no other reason to show the Ephesians the epitome of our Salvation, That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Then the backslider in heart, when that Proverb was written had no knowledge of the Mystery of Christ in them the hope of Glory. Christ had to come and be Crucified on the Cross to sit in the Heavenlies so we could sit with Him. This is where Christ is, He is in you and you in Him, you are a new creature and a new man in Christ Jesus. It is your choice to stay in the old man, but it is much better for the believer to know his born again status in Christ and make a new life in Christ Jesus rather than stay in the old man syndrome and never reach the place on this earth that God intended us to be in Christ Jesus, making us a new man and son's of God.
That is why Paul keeps correcting, as in all his letters. They did not understand what great salvation they truly have in Christ Jesus and it is like having a first love then leaving because their hearts and minds were not kept on Him. Keep you heart and mind one Him. As in reference to marriage love your wife in Christ as you know God loves you, and in reference to the Church love your wife as Christ loves His bride the Church and is One with Her and gave Himself for Her, don't leave your first love, give yourself for Him. He gave Himself for you. And me and all those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

That is why Paul keeps correcting, as in all his letters. They did not understand what great salvation they truly have in Christ Jesus and it is like having a first love then leaving because their hearts and minds were not kept on Him.

I do not disagree at all with your message Phillip. What I am trying to root out is the fact that Paul and Timothy continue to exhort all believer's of the truth of our position in Christ.

How does one come to understand this truth? Does it eminate from the carnal mind or from the Spirit that is in us?

In Christ
Jeff

Sis wrote:

These verses are in the present tense completely, apart from the condition of the indwelling Spirit being obeyed, the consequence of which - future - will be the quickening of our mortal bodies.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (present tense - emphasis mine)

According to the above Scripture, Christ the forerunner demonstrates to us the path. Christ died a physical death and then the Father through the Spirit raised Christ body up.

Do we differ, in God's plan, from our Forerunner that is Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Sis wrote:

Without doubt, the flesh life - inasmuchas it sins - must be mortified, but, if our bodies are not quickened in this life, you are suggesting God means we are to try to serve Him with unredeemable flesh - that only vehicle we have - that body which is made in His own image

When God created Adam out of the dust, was it his body that resembled God's image?

In Christ
Jeff

"""Do we differ, in God's plan, from our Forerunner that is Christ?"""

YES! How could they be in a Christ that is not attainable by the birthing of Christ in them. The resurrected Christ could not be in them. He was with them as the Holy Spirit was upon them, but not in them or them in Him. Theirs is worldly our is Heavenly. Just like our resurrection, theirs is unto this earth our is unto the heavenly place Christ is preparing for us. We are a new creation, not the oldness of the Law in temple rights, but the newness of us now being the temple. The Holy of Holies is not longer in Jerusalem. The Holy of Holies is our Quickened Bodies, Minds, and Souls. Without the Holy of Holies there is not availability to come boldly to the Throne. Israel cannot even have a Priest that can have their sin's forgiven anymore. The only Holy of Holies is in Christ and by believing that Christ is the Son of God, then all that believe have that availability in them, Born Again son's of God. Now we who have Christ in us can still have the High Priest availability to the Father by the High Priest, Jesus Christ Himself bring us the the Throne of God by His Sacrifice, the Blood is on the altar forever and we have gone in the Holy of Holies through the rent curtain and have immediately access to the Father by the High Priest that is our new life. The veil no longer separates us for the Father, The Word of God plainly states this, come boldly to the throne:

Hebrews 4:12-16 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

How could we go to the Throne of Grace which is far higher than the mercy seat in the earthly temple, which no man can reach now. It does not exist. The Throne of Grace does exist, and it is in Heaven and we can approach it boldly because we are one with the High Priest Himself, old is earthly, new is heavenly.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

"""Do we differ, in God's plan, from our Forerunner that is Christ?"""

YES!

The point of my question is tied to the Scripture which Sister Dorcas posted.

Romans 8:

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

First, in verse 10 Paul teaches that if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin...

What is Paul saying here... "the body is dead because of sin..."

Is he refering to our bodies made of the dust or is he speaking of spiritual things?

In Christ
Jeff

Psalm 71:

15 My mouth shall shew forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof. 16 I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD: I will make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only. 17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works. 18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come. 19 Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee! 20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

In this Scripture what significance does the word "quicken" have in the last verse?

Is this not the same as what Paul is speaking of in Romans 8:

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The first part of the verse speaks of the Father by the Spirit raising up Jesus from the dead. The second part also speaks of the same promise for those who now have His Spirit dwelling in them.

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Dorcas wrote:

I can testify this is not my experience of His work in my flesh. I believe my mortal body is already being quickened, and will, finally, be totally transformed by resurrection.

I have experienced those things which cause my heart to cry out to Him. I have experienced being totally emptied of myself, without thought of anything pretaining to the body while worshiping Him. All that I could do is cry. I have had two dreams which frame the path that I am on. These things or experiences do not affect my flesh but transforms my desire from that of the old man to the hope and desire to know Him. My flesh is dying yet my spirit is being renewed. My physical body is growing old and withering like the grass in autumn.

Psa. 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

Psa. 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa. 119:88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.

Psa. 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Psa. 119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Psa. 119:149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment.

Psa. 119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

Psa. 119:156 Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.

Psa. 119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.

These Scriptures speak of spiritual life.

In Christ
Jeff

Yea, Jeff

We must decrease and He must increase.

John 3:27-30 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the Bridegroom: but the friend of the Bridegroom, which standeth and heareth Him, rejoiceth greatly because of the Bridegroom's Voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.

We are the friends, that is what Jesus now calls us until resurrection morning. Friends of Jesus, Adopted son's of The Father, with the Incorruptable Seed of the Father rebirthed in us. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

In Christ by the Seed of the Father: Phillip

Paul writes in Romans 8:

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Ephesians 1:

Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

In both of these sections of Scripture we find that Paul is teaching that we have been given the Holy Spirit as the
"guarantee of our inheritance" by the Holy Spirit we are "waiting for the adoption, which is the redemption of our body."

Paul teaches that the body we now have is dead because of sin,

Romans 8: 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Then he teaches "but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

In the life we now live in Christ, does Paul's definition of the new creation include our corrupt bodies?

In Christ
Jeff

Psalm 103

Psa. 103:1 \tBless the LORD, O my soul;
\tAnd all that is within me, bless His holy name!
2 \tBless the LORD, O my soul,
\tAnd forget not all His benefits:
3 \tWho forgives all your iniquities,
\tWho heals all your diseases,
4 \tWho redeems your life from destruction,
\tWho crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5 \tWho satisfies your mouth with good things,
\tSo that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.

Is this a picture of salvation?

In Christ
Jeff

Our bodies with Christ in this temple which the Holy Spirit says is His and has quickened the flesh by His presence in us, is how the flesh overcomes the old man and becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Any one in Christ that thinks they can be a Christian within this body of flesh without the Holy Spirit quickening it will never reach maturity in Christ.

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

What the Holy Spirit sows is in the soul that is being renewed, this flesh we now live in by the Spirit of Christ is quickened by the Holy Spirit to contain the life that has been born again in us because we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, now able to be planted and bring forth fruit. The Incorruptable Seed can now be capable of the same resurrection as Christ. We will have the same body as He does. Bringing forth the dead in Christ and those that are alive and in Christ at the Rapture are the only ones that can bring forth fruit, Christ being the first fruit.

We have already been changed in Spirit by the Christ that is in us, for the old spirit died on the cross with Christ. The soul is being renewed to the new life of Christ in you the hope of Glory by the Holy Spirit. The body is quickened and contains the Seed that can be planted and bring forth fruit. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Oh that we might see what God has wrought in Christ Jesus to the effect, we are new creatures in Christ Jesus never before on this earth, as Paul states many times.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Unless Christ is our quickened spirit The Incorruptable Seed cannot bring forth fruit unto the Soul being quickened by The Holy Spirit that Is now in this temple of His. That is why the flesh has been quickened and now contains Life of God that when the body is planted or changed in the twinkling of an eye, it can now bring forth the flesh and bone that can enter the Kingdom of God in our Father's House. Without the Incorruptable Seed being in the new creature it cannot bring forth fruit, Christ being the first fruit. That is why our body will be just like His, It now has the Life of the Incorruptable Seed in it, and being quickened by the life of the Seed which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, it can know the things of the Kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Spirit of Christ in the believer is now the perfect Seed that can bring forth the things of the Kingdom of God directed in our Soul being renewed to that Spirit by the Holy Spirit and the body now quickened by the Holy Spirit can bring forth the body of flesh and bone that is just like Jesus Christ being the first fruit and us capable of the same fruit, By His Incorruptable Seed born again in us.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In Christ: Phillip

Our bodies with Christ in this temple: By which the Holy Spirit says is His and has quickened the flesh by His presence in us, is how the flesh overcomes the old man and becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Any one in Christ that believes they can be a Christian within this body of flesh without the Holy Spirit quickening it will never reach maturity in Christ.

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Are we dead? If crucifixion causes death, we are dead to this world.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our rest is in being justified in Christ, by His Faith. Without Christ being in a person there is no justification. God has made Christ our sanctification and righteousness, this is Justification by the Christ that is in us. We no longer live, but are alive in Christ and dead to sin. Where death is, sin no longer has any hold on the dead. All the sin of the world was in the cup that Christ drank, and His body is the only Body that could do that. The old testament saints did not have this capacity, for their sin was still in the cup and Christ had not drank of it until the Cross. Our Cross is the Cross we hang on with Christ, our death is the death of the Cross with Christ. Our new life is the same resurrection of Christ, if we died with Him we live with Him. He is in heavenly places and we are seated with Him in Spirit and Soul and quickened in body and will be seated with Him in the same kind of Body as He has. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Saying that those that were under the Law are saved the same way after the Cross is frustrating to God, because Grace is frustrated and Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Dorcas and Brother Phillip,

There are different kinds of promises that God makes with those whom He promises to be God to them. There are promises that impact the individuals life in respect to the predestined work that He has planned for the individual. Other promises are highlighted by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount. Then there is the promise of the Resurection.

If we are new creatures according to how you have described in these last posts, why then does God's plan include the resurrection of our bodies?

In Christ
Jeff

Mark 4:13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

14 The sower sows the word.

One's life is founded and perserved by the word of God. If you look to this first parable you will see that Jesus has described that which determines eternity for each individual.

11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that
\t“Seeing they may see and not perceive,
\tAnd hearing they may hear and not understand;
\tLest they should turn,
\tAnd their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

The mystery of the kingdom of God finds it's revelation according to the word of God. This mystery is taught by Paul who has received the stewardship of explaining it to the Gentiles. This mystery of Christ in you is the elementary principle spoken of by the writer of Hebrews. This elementary principle defines the plan that the Father has predestined in Christ before the foundations of this world. Yet according to Scripture we are continually given examples of those who have recieved the promises of God and those who have denied God. All of these things are elementary according to Hebrews 6:1-3

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

When the author of Hebrews exhorts the believers to leave the elementary priciples of Christ, he also points to something more. "Let us go on to perfection..." Throughout Scripture we are encouraged to mature, to grow otherwise the believer remains simple in his understanding of God. Perfection has nothing to do with the flesh or the body. Listen to Paul's exhortation,

Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:

I labor to divide and define how God saves according to the Scriptures. Throughout Scripture it is knowledge of God and when applied, becomes the wisdom of God to the individual. Where does all wisdom that defines righteousness emaninate from? Jesus

How do we recognize Him? According to Scripture, how do we know that we are born from above In Christ? What is the proof?

In Christ
Jeff

2 Corinthians 5:1-9 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.

Present or absent from the body is not the important part of salvation, but that we may be accepted of Him. Where are we accepted?
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His Grace, wherein He hath made us accepted ((in)) the Beloved.

There is a mystery of how the body, soul, and spirit function. There is a scripture that seems to give us a blue print of how it works.
It says we have a body, It says we have a spirit, it says we have a soul. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God divides these into three in one, just as the God Head is also One God with three different mechanisms of God in dealing with man.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If we have a spirit and Christ is now that Spirit, there is a clear division of soul and spirit, yet being one in context. If our spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, which scripture defines as a new creation creature. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We who believe now have the Spirit of Christ in our spirit which was dead and is now made alive in Christ. This is part of the mystery Paul is speaking about which was hid to all creation and is not revealed to the Saints, the birthed son's of God, by which it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Then we come to the soul in which the Holy Spirit is the life of the soul, the mechanism by which we know this Christ that is in us. Next Post.

In Christ: Phillip

Rookie wrote

Peter states that it is the word of God that causes one to be born again.

just popping in but saw this interesting post. In response, according to my experience also, it comes through believing God's written word (1 John 5:13). Also one must come as a little child (Luke 18:17), therefore pride would be a hindrance. One must rest on the word, but also upon Jesus Himself who the word reveals (1 John 5:11, 12). This must come from the heart - will, emotions, reasonings must cooperate (Rom 10:9, 10). One must receive Him as an act of faith (John 1:12) Then He gives power to become the sons of God.

It is a divine act: birth by the Spirit (John 1:13). It is a mystery, "The wind bloweth where it listeth....".

Evidences of being Born Again:

One escapes the corruption in the world because a new nature has been implanted within (11 Pet. 1:4).

One overcomes the world (1 John 5:4).

One is delivered from the practice of sin, and a single act of sin has been provided for by appeal to Jesus Christ our Advocate.

The Born Again believer loves God; the center of interest goes from self to God (Rom 5:5). Love to the bretheren follows automatically (1 John 3:14).

The means of this transformation is by keeping our eyes upon Christ Jesus (11 Cor. 3:18).

Praise and thanks be to God for the wonderful new life He has given, and for leaving The Word of God in written form, that we might confirm our own experience and learn from Him.

Linda
:-)

Brother Phillip quotes:

2 Corinthians 5:1-9 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

In this part of Scripture Paul speaks of "this tabernacle". He is refering to our earthly bodies. Then he speaks of a "building of God" which is "eternal in the heavens." He speaks of groaning for something we yet do not have. Then he speaks of clothing which is not of this earth. He speaks of not wanting to be "found naked".

What does Paul mean when He talks about being "naked." What does this imply about the nature of our earthly bodies?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Linda wrote:

just popping in but saw this interesting post. In response, according to my experience also, it comes through believing God's written word (1 John 5:13). Also one must come as a little child (Luke 18:17), therefore pride would be a hindrance. One must rest on the word, but also upon Jesus Himself who the word reveals (1 John 5:11, 12). This must come from the heart - will, emotions, reasonings must cooperate (Rom 10:9, 10). One must receive Him as an act of faith (John 1:12) Then He gives power to become the sons of God.

Amen Sister, the word does reveal Jesus to us.

Evidences of being Born Again:

The evidence you give is correct and Scriptural. The evidence is the result of what according to Scripture? I ask not to burden you but to search with you.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Rookie wrote

The evidence you give is correct and Scriptural. The evidence is the result of what according to Scripture? I ask not to burden you but to search with you.

Brother Jeff,

I am happy to search with you, I have questions too. The evidence is a result of the Holy Spirit baptizing a believer, by receiving power from on high.

Linda

We have been solemnly commissioned by God as His ambassadors in this cause. We have been sent to make known the terms and the way of reconciliation, and it to be our duty to proclaim these terms on as wide a scale as possible, and with the utmost zeal and self-denial. It is God's glorious plan of reconciliation; and on the grounds of the atonement made by the Redeemer, we can now offer salvation to all mankind; and as all might be saved, we ourselves are bound to offer the terms of salvation to as many as possible,
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; The grand argument for urging sinners to be reconciled to God, is the fact that Christ has died for sin of the whole world; and therefore the apostles, especially Paul's revelation of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, all apprized of this fact, sought as we should seek to urge as many as possible to become a friend of Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

We have a building of God. Robinson (Lexicon) supposes that it refers to "the future spiritual body as the abode of the soul." Some have supposed that it refers to some "celestial vehicle" with which God invests the soul during the intermediate state. But the Scripture is silent about any such celestial vehicle. It is not easy to tell what was the precise idea which Paul here designed to convey, Perhaps a few remarks may enable us to arrive at the meaning.

(1.) It was not to be temporary; not a tent or tabernacle that could be taken down.

(2.) It was to be eternal-in the heavens.

(3.) It was to be such as to constitute a dwelling; a clothing, or such a protection as should keep the soul from being "naked."

(4.) It was to be such as should constitute "life" in contradistinction from "mortality." These things will better agree with the supposition of its referring to the future body of the saints than anything else; and probably the idea of Paul is, that the body there will be incorruptible and immortal. When he says it is a "building of God," (ek qeou,) he evidently means that it is made by God; that He is the architect of that future and eternal dwelling. However, we understand this of the mansions which God has fitted up for His people in heaven, and which the Lord Jesus has gone to prepare for His brothers and sisters whom are called son's of God. John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. This place where we will be naked before all and without shame as God prepared Adam and Eve before the Fall. Then clothed in the White Robes of Righteousness that is the Christ in us.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Linda stated:

The evidence is a result of the Holy Spirit baptizing a believer, by receiving power from on high.

I agree. I look to this Scripture as the defining proof given to each child that God has promised to be God to them.

Eph 1:13-14

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the prasie of His glory."

He Paul identifies that once believing, God gives the Holy Spirit as the guarantee of our inheritance. The continual witnessing of the Holy Spirit that we are His children is the proof that we will be ressurected in the day of our Lord. The Holy Spirit is the power that brings to bare the word of God in our lives. It is the Holy Spirit teaching us to recognized Jesus's work in our lives. It is the Holy Spirit illuminating the things we witness happening in our lives that are found in Scripture. The parables become life experiences. The psalms become our song. The proverbs becomes for us wisdom that comes not from man but is of God. It is the truth that never changes..

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip quoted:

(3.) It was to be such as to constitute a dwelling; a clothing, or such a protection as should keep the soul from being "naked."

There are other Scriptures which talk about nakedness and also those of being clothed. All in all I believe Paul desires to be further clothed with the covering that finds it source in Heaven. This covering shields the believer from shame due to his current condition. In Psalms 103:10-

"He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust."

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

we can now offer salvation to all mankind; and as all might be saved, we ourselves are bound to offer the terms of salvation to as many as possible,

Christ in you, defines the terms of salvation. As we grow, all we have to offer, is how He taught us to recognize Him in our own lives. All we can do, is testify of what He has accomplished in us. That is, how He has lead us down a path that has changed the substance of what we hope for.

The treasure that is realized by a believer can only come from the increase that is of God...

In Christ
Jeff

Yes Sister Dorcas...Amen

This thread has meandered all around, yet it keeps coming back to the word of God. The partaking of the bread of life refreshes, and washes the filth of the world away. The partaking of the bread of life does quicken and makes alive what was one dead. And what does this feeding bring? A new hope never understood by the carnal mind. It is the word of God which has the power to transform those who are fed the manna from heaven...

In Christ
Jeff

Getting back to the parable which unlocks all other parables,

Mark 4:13, "And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?"

I have covered to some extent the ways of the first three groups of people. Jesus depicts or identifies how many stumble and do not come to understand the depth and the width of the love that God has for them.

Now I will attempt to talk about the promise that is given to those of the fourth group.

Mark 4:20,

"But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit; some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."

Do you hear the promise? What is required?

In Christ
Jeff

"But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it,

Many teach that the good ground speaks of those who have been born again. Yet I believe that the first part of this verse is connected to what follows...

The ground is good because they hear the word, and they accept it.

The gift is freely given. Jesus many times proclaimed truth followed by this exhortation...He who has ears let him hear.

I believe we have spent, at least in this generation much to do about trying to define the what, when, where, of being born again. We ourselves point to one emotional time where God quickened our hearts. Yet, many have only the testimony of that moment. Nothing follows, yet we say we are born again.

But what does Scripture teach about the relationship between God and his children? Paul always talked about knowledge and wisdom. Paul always prayed that his fellow brother and sister would grow in knowledge, in understanding, in wisdom.

Well where does this knowledge, understanding, and wisdom find it's source?

In Christ
Jeff

In Christ
Jeff

The Ground is good because the Sower has prepared it for planting. All other ground is sinking sand.

The Seed that is planted is the Word and who is the Word. Back to the birthing again. No man can come to the Father except by the Seed of Christ in him. No man can say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless it is revealed to him by the Father. The good ground is the only ground that can be planted and Fruit come from it. The Father prepares the ground The Father plants the Seed which is Christ a Person and the increase is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Man has nothing to do with preparing himself, that is good ground, only the Father can do the cultivation, Plant the Seed, The Seed of Christ producing the Fruit theirof, The Seed planted in the good ground has never been planted in that ground before and what comes forth is a completely new creature full of fruit of the Seed Planted. 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word of God? John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

WE believers comprehend it because the Holy Spirit Comforter has been sent to reveal this Word, Jesus Christ that is birthed in us because we now believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Seed that is planted is the Word and who is the Word. Back to the birthing again. No man can come to the Father except by the Seed of Christ in him. No man can say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless it is revealed to him by the Father.

When you say that it is God who sows the Seed in them, does this also apply to this group?

Mark 4:

14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

When Scripture says that "the word was sown in theirs hearts," do you accept it for what it says?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister wrote:

Anyone who has done serious planting, (or decorating!) knows that preparation is paramount to a fruitful outcome.

This thought reminds me of this Scripture...

Ephesians 2:
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Do you see the part where "God prepared beforehand," what is this really speaking about?

In Jesus parable, the seed is the word. Initially, it is out of sight in the ground, as the unborn child. Only as it germinates (develops) and breaks through into the light, is it recognised as thriving.

In these two groups the seed germinates and is visible for all to see. But what happens?

Mark 4

16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Remember, the seed itself is incorruptible...

In Christ
Jeff

aww the never ending cycle of life to the farmer
seeds, roots and fruits
fallow ground, good ground,bad seeds good seeds, deep roots, shallow roots and off shoots, bad fruit, good fruit. one waters another weeds....

Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
:-)

I know my post has nothing to do with being born again......but we are always a work in progress growing from Glory to Glory

It takes a Father's Seed to make son's. The Ground which the Seed is planted in must be soil according to bringing forth or the Seed that is Planted cannot be good seed. By the wayside is not the prepared Ground. Can Satan abort the Incorruptable Seed planted by the Father? The answer is no, for Christ is the Seed.

Christ orders Satan aside when it comes to good ground prepared by the Sower. Why would an intelligent Sower put good Seed by the wayside. It is like crop dusting, when a rice field is planted some of the seed spills over and falls by the wayside and is not intended for the ground that has been prepared to be a rice field, by the One saying where the Seed is to be planted. The same is as the world, They hear the word and their heart was not prepared, and comes forth The ,Oh well, the Seed will spring up but because it is in the wrong place and does not receive water and fertilizer it dies quickly.
The same Seed is for the whole world but only the good ground prepared will bring forth fruit unto salvation. The Seed sowed in the World must be sown in Good Ground or the Seed will not grow and Christ will say I never new you even if the ground thinks the seed is in them because they heard from the Good Ground What Good Seed in Good Ground will do for them. Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

The Heart of man is deceitfully wicked and if the Heart is not prepared the Seed will not take root or grow in the good heart ground prepared by the Sower.

Again, all other ground is sinking sand.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Michelle wrote:

aww the never ending cycle of life to the farmer
seeds, roots and fruits

Why do you suppose that it is a never ending cycle?

Why do we wrestle with this parable?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Ground which the Seed is planted in must be soil according to bringing forth or the Seed that is Planted cannot be good seed.

Matthew
13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

Luke 8:
Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

According to Scripture all the seed is good because it "is the word of God."

So God does not sow bad seed, so then where does the responsibility according to Scripture lie?

In Christ
Jeff

"The Ground which the Seed is planted in must be soil according to bringing forth, or the Seed that is Planted cannot be good seed."

This is not saying that God is planting bad seed. The ground must be God's ground, because if the seed does not come forth it would be bad seed if it were not God's Seed which can never be bad Seed because it is the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ. Good ground will bring forth fruit unto Good Seed. No man can till his own ground or plant any seed that will bring forth fruit unto salvation or fruit.

Only God is the Husbandman and the same thing goes for the Vine and the Branches. What are the commandments of Christ? Love one another. If you believe in me, you believe in Him who sent me. If the Spirit of Christ be in you, the Spirit of my Father is also in you because you believe in me, and I will also send you another Comforter the Holy Spirit, be ye fill with Him and I am my Father will come and make our abode with you. These are His Commandments.

John 15:1-17 I am the true vine, and my Father is the Husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.

God prepares the vine just like He prepares the ground for the Seed. He knows exactly where to plant the Vine and exactly what branches to prune and exactly which branches to throw away. He knows exactly how to jib and girdle the grape vine bearing branches to bring for the biggest Grapes and the exact time when the sugar is at its peak for the biggest and sweetest fruit.

God will not allow bad fruit or bad Seed, because the Seed is Christ and the fruit is of Christ in us the Hope of Glory, not of self which are bad branches and are burned.

In Christ: Phillip

**Side note**

This is an extremely long thread. Can anyone sum up what you've discovered and went through? 48 pages is ALOT of reading that I don't have time for...haha, I'd just like to read it, not really get in the discussion.