Trinity Debate: Need Help

Hey all,I have been engaged in a debate over the trinity of which I believe to be true. These scriptures were raised as defense against it:1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.How do I explain this and still maintain the credability of the bible?Thanks,Blake

Now, I'm not a pro but I would reinforce where Jesus is said to be God. Here's the ones I use most commonly:John 1:1, put together with John 1:14.John 8:58, where Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", which is a referance to Ex 3:14My personal favorite- works well with Jehova's Witnesses, also. These three go together.Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, right?Revelation 22:13, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, right?Revelation 2:8, "These are the words of him who is the First and The Last, who died and came to life again." So the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is the Lord God, right? Well, when did God die and come to life? Jesus Christ!Anyway, tell us how it goes. I'd like to know more about what is said- on both sides. Grace and Peace...

Hi beenblake. i'm not sure what their argument is in reference to the Trinity here ... Are they saying that God can't be Triune because the Father is above the Son, and the Son above the Holy Spirit (although He's not even mentioned here)? ... If that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... i heard a preacher say once that the Bible itself is a trinity, as we His image creation are also ... He said in scripture there's the OT (the dispensation of the Father), the Gospels (the dispensation of the Son), and the NT (from the Acts, the dispensation of the Holy Spirit) ... And that when it comes to us we're spirit, soul and flesh ... When i'm attempting to get someone to understand that God is one in three, and three in one first off i pray God the Holy Spirit's (3) blessing, direction and wisdom in the explaining because He knows the deep things of God (1 & 2) ...1Cor.2:10 - But God (1 & 2) hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit (3): for the Spirit (3) searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God (1 & 2). That's why Christ (2) prayed the Father (1) to send the Holy Spirit (3) to us after His (2) departure ...John.14:[16] And I (2) will pray the Father(1), and He (1) shall give you another Comforter (3), that He (3) may abide with you for ever; [26] But the Comforter (3), which is the Holy Ghost (3), whom the Father (1) will send in my name (2), He (3) shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (2) have said unto you.John.15:[26] But when the Comforter (3) is come, whom I (2) will send unto you from the Father (1), even the Spirit (3) of truth, which proceedeth from the Father (1), He (3) shall testify of me (2): How i like to explain the Trinity is that the Father (1) is the Source (the very Will of the Godhead), thatJesus Christ (2) is the Course (the Word of the Fathers Will), and Holy Spirit (3) the Force (He that does only the Will of the Father (1) via the Word of the Son (2) ...John.16:[13] Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth (3), is come, He (3) will guide you into all truth: for He (3) shall not speak of Himself (3); but whatsoever He (3) shall hear (from 1 by 2), that shall He speak: and He (3) will shew you things to come.So scripture tells us that even though God the Son (2) calls God the Father (1) both His Father and His God, designating from His (2) on lips that the Father (1) is above Him (2), and that He (2) came to do the Will of the Father (1) He (2) says this in ... John.6:[38] For I (2) came down from heaven, not to do mine (2) own will, but the will of Him (1) that sent me.John.10:[27] My sheep hear My (2) voice, and I (2) know them, and they follow me: [28] And I (2) give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My (2) hand.[29] My Father (1), which gave them Me (2), is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's (1) hand. [30] I and my Father are one. Ouch! ... (2) is saying that (1) is greater than He (2), Holy Spirit (3) and anyone/thing else ... (2) puts it right down front that the Father is #1, but then states that (2) + (1) = (1) ... (2) states of (3) in John.15:[26] that (3) "proceedeth from" the Father (1) ... i've always found it fascinating that God in the OT appears as one, but Elohim is plural, like cherub (singular) to cherub-im (more than one) ... From the vantage point of where we now sit in having the Gospels and the NT in explanation, it almost seems (to me) like even back then God was giving a hint to His triuness, that the Eternal One, the I Am that I Am, was actually more than One ... What a mighty, wondrous and loving God we serve who would reveal such an eternal mystery as His own personal intimate makeup to the point that we now know and commune with all three members of the Godhead (3) ... That God the Father (1) would reveal and send God the Son (2) for the benefit of our salvation, and then send God the Holy Spirit (3) to empower us to be earthly servants, representatives, ambassodors, and proclaimers of (2), who always point to (1) ... Man, what a program huh? ... Lastly, this is my all time favorite scripture when it comes to explaning the Trinity ...Mark.1:[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus (2) came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit (3) like a dove descending upon Him (2): [11] And there came a voice (1) from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son (2), in whom I (1) am well pleased. All three members of the Godhead in operation at once! Hope this helps ... And for anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity i've not posted this to argue back and forth, this is just how i believe in and see God's Triuness ... Blessings in Christ Jesus! ... :-D

We are getting into deep water here but technically...f that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... ...is heresy. hierarchy |?h???r??ki| noun ( pl. -chies) a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority. • ( the hierarchy) the upper echelons of a hierarchical system; those in authority : the magazine was read quite widely even by some of the hierarchy. • an arrangement or classification of things according to relative importance or inclusiveness : a taxonomic hierarchy of phyla, classes, orders, families, genera, and species. • ( the hierarchy) the clergy of the Catholic or Episcopal Church; the religious authorities. • Theology the traditional system of orders of angels and other heavenly beings. Hierarchy was 'chain of command' rule. You can create a business org chart of an hierarchy. Trinity is something quite different. It is tri-unity with Father, Son and Spirit being 'co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal'. 'co-' cannot be hierarchical. It is impossible to create an org chart of the Trinity.The Athanasian creed was a reaction against the heresies of its day but if you strip out the doctrinaire elements you still have a good statement, though not one you are likely to use in your evangelism. ;-) The Athanasian Creed has the sentence:He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. That is a very careful steer around the 'heresy' of hierarchy.The Three Classic Creeds of Christendom are The Apostles' CreedThe Nicene CreedThe Athanasian Creed

Thanks bro. Ron ... i will look into the creed links you provided ... But as it stands now i guess i've got a big H (for heretic) branded on my rear :-P ... Because i take literally what Christ said here ...John.14:[28] - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. i looked up "greater" in the Webster's but i remember you telling me a while back that i shouldn't look up biblical definitions in a secular dictionary, so perhaps you may have a source of definition that will clear up my thinking that greater means ... well "greater" ... predominant ... i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth ... But Christ was in heaven in His full second person of the God head glory when He gave the Revelation to John, but Scripture says that God the Father gave it to God the Son first, to pass it on ... All throughout Scripture i see the Father as the Will of the Trinity, Christ as the Word of the Will, and Holy Spirit as the mover and shaker of the Will via the Word ... Although i know all three are God, i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit in that the Word don't say nothing other than the Will of the Father, and Holy Spirit don't do nothing unless He hears it from heaven ... Like this statement you made "Jesus is an earth-time name which the Word chose" over on the other thread ...Creation of Jesushttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7821&forum=35 If i'm in error i pray God to deliver me from it, but until such a time ...well here goes me showing off my big H again, but i don't believe that God the Word chose to call Himself His earthly name but God the Will (the Father did) ... Seeing the Trinity as a hierarchy may get me in trouble with those who don't, but even if i discarded that word i'd still have to say that i believe the Father to be "predominant" and somewhat "superior" in the Godhead for Him to always be the One calling the shots, being the Will, and the other two members acting and reacting accordingly ...

i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son. i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from own particular convictions here. I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity.

Bro. Ron you're a wealth of info ... Thank you! ... You wrote;"This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son."Now i gotta go look up info on Origen ... Hmmmm ... and to find out which Church excommunicated Him ... God is good, as now i'll now what to be prepared for in this arena, for until He shows me otherwise then yes i believe in a heirarchal Trinity ...You continued;"I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from your own particular convictions here."No, at the time i heard this it was by another brother, an older brother in the congregation who believedthat the Father is "greater", to the dismay of the pastor who attempted to tell the brother that Christ said this because He was on earth at the time ... I remember thinking that i agreed with the older brother, but was much to afraid to say so then ... As you can see, i'm no loger afraid ... But as i said if i;m wrong i pray God will straighten me out about Himself ...You ended;"I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity."No bro Ron i've not taken it as you trying to persuade me ... But i am appreciative that now i have some studying to do and am looking forward to seeing whether the research changes my view or further entrenches it ...i love this SI Forum, for i can get no such depth of topics and discussion from anyone in the circle of saints i'm around ... But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?Blessings!

But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense. “who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;” (Phil. 2:6-7, ASV) Submission must be voluntary or it is not submission. He did not do this out of 'duty' but out of love for our race. And the Father's love is measured in that He allowed the Word to submit to the will of God.

To me the servanthood of Christ was God's way of showing He was and is willing to submit to the rules He created. The Scriptures also say that, "For he hath made him to be sin for us." So Jesus should not have have been broken since He did nothing wrong. God just volunteered to do so. Likewise, God sent Himself, this person being the Son, to put on flesh that was cursed.God seemingly shouldn't put on cursed flesh, but He did. Like a king putting on rags.This shows His ability to be more that one person simultaneously, as well as His ability to create through all three persons of the trinity. Also it shows that Father recognized Jesus as flesh, as well as Jesus being God. God was well pleased with Jesus, but also turned His back on the Son, to forsake the sins of the flesh. The acts Jesus did defy all the laws of science and what should be. By our standards, He should have destroyed evil, but He rather paved a way for us. He will do the destroying during the second visit.The submission of Jesus to the Father shows me what all flesh should do before God: submit. So no flesh will glory in God's presence, not even that flesh that Christ was in. Rather the God that was in the flesh of Christ took glory. The flesh took the punishment, while the Spirit of Christ ascended in a glorified body.The Son was God with us, the Spirit is God in us. The Spirit inside of us is 100% God. The Holy Spirit cannot sin. That Spirit that prevails in us will receive glory in heaven at the judgment, not anything of the flesh. Jesus was 100% flesh, and 100% God. The Spirit is 100% God, but was given by a glorified Jesus who overcame the flesh. Flesh is corrupted by the work of Satan, but God has given a way through Christ to 'inject' His Spirit into corrupted flesh. So the Son and Spirit's work is from God. Father and Son are accepting of direct worship. Son and Spirit are in direct contact with flesh. Father and Spirit never came in the flesh. Each person of God does their part in harmony. I see these three persons of God showing us we are supposed to work in unity with the other members of the body of Christ. The Father was never jealous of the Son or the Spirit, but yet all three have constantly worked in perfect unity. I see the trinity as God's way of showing us how to live, as well as his desire to be an integral part of our life. That is the whole beauty of the walk in the Spirit.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Remember that the word "Christ" is Greek for "Anointed", and in Hebrew "Anointed" is "Massiah".This verse is talking about Jesus in his Earthly life. It is also when He was totaly submissive to the Father (not saying that He isn't now, but, they are now unifide) 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Here we must see the word "Lord": kurios {koo'-ree-os}=Definition...1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lorda) the possessor and disposer of a thing1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperorb) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their masterc) this title is given to: God, the MessiahFor Synonyms see entry 5830This word equates Him with God the Father. The fact that God the Father is the only one with these attributes as the Lord Jesus Christ has also. Therefor makes them One in Unity, Perpose and essence.

Bro Ron you wrote;"Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense."Yes, this is pretty much the same thing i heard the preacher say to the older brother about his belief of Christ not being "equal in every sense" to the Father ... But such a reasoning both then and now makes me wonder, because i'd been taught by my own pastor that Christ was God in flesh on Earth, did His being wrapped in flesh make Him less God? ... i came to the conclusion that such reasoning, as you've said you believe my graded view of the Trinity to be, is defective ... Christ on earth, to me, was acting no different toward His Father than He did in Heaven ... To me, in creation, the Father willed it, the Word spoke the will, and Holy Spirit physically brought it to past ... Christ it always seems to me is doing the will of His Father, by speaking forth that will ... So when He came here He let it be known that He came not to do His own will, but the will of the One that "sent" Him ... i bless God for this thread for this has certainly made me pray, seek and more closely define just what i believe about the Trinity ... i suppose it's Christ constant use of the word "sent" that has convinced me that while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...So yes like Origen i do believe Christ to be subordinate to the Father in whatever the sense He meant when He said His Father was "greater" than He ... And so (for me) when Phil. 2 says“who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God", i think Christ was refering to those areas in which He knew Himself to be on the same par as His Father and not the area, which i think has to do with being the all knowing will of the Trinity ... That's whyRev.1: 1 sticks out so much for me - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." ... It has always fascinated me that the final letter(s) to His Bride, we the Church whom Christ said His Father gave to Him, was not written to us by Christ alone, seperate or apart from the Father, but the Father gave Him the Revelation, to give to us ... For me Christ is God the Mediator, what we call down here on earth the "middle-man" ...So yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipotent":1: often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 12: having virtually unlimited authority or influenceMatt.28: [18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.note: Let me say here that i believe had it not been for the fall of man, and God's necessary plan of redemption, there would never have even been a need for the Word to have had to be formally given "all power" in what seems like a new bestowal of the Father to His Son what He already enjoyed in their Oneness ... i could be wrong, but i think that had it not become necessary by Adam's fall for God to intimately reveal His triuness, both creatures of heaven and earth would still only see Him as One in His light, and we wouldn't even be discussing such issues ...And yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipresent":1: present in all places at all timesJohn.1[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[2] The same was in the beginning with God.[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.But no i do not believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omniscient":2: possessed of universal or complete knowledgeMatt.24 - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only"Like Christ statement, i think there are some things that only the Father knows, even in their Oneness, until such time as He reveals it as His "will", and then the other two members of the Godhead know, and react ... So contrary to Origen i don't believe in the independence of the Logos, i think just as Christ said He and His Father are One, and that if we see Him we see the Father also ... i both believe, and concieve the analogy of Father and Son ... And i most certainly don't agree with Origen that Christ is of a different substance than the Father ... i believe both Christ, and Holy Spirit to be God ... If Origen truly believed that Christ was but merely an image comparison or creation to God the Father, and not eternal God Himself as the Logos, then i too think this heretical and would not agree with it ...Now lastly i did find this belief attributed to Origen interesting ..."The Logos is the rational creative principle that permeates the universe. Since God eternally manifests himself, the Logos is likewise eternal. He forms a bridge between the created and uncreated, and only through him, as the visible representative of divine wisdom, can the inconceivable and incorporeal God be known. Creation came into existence only through the Logos, and God's nearest approach to the world is the command to create. While the Logos is substantially a unity, he comprehends a multiplicity of concepts, so that Origen terms him, in Platonic fashion, "essence of essences" and "idea of ideas."i gotta chew on this one some more ... i'm so unfamiliar with so much of the scholarly terminolgy like "Platonic fashion" ...i did do a lot of asking of saints this weekend their thoughts on Christ and Holy Spirit being equal to the Father ... Got a lot of puzzled looks ... Silence on the phone ... Some said they really never thought to much about it ... Some only see Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit are secondary ... But when i began to ask did they think Jesus equal to His Father, i was surprised to find out how many of them refered to the same scripture as myself concerning Christ saying that the Father was greater ... i guess i'm not as alone in my circle as i thought ...Bro Ron i've not posted this as fodder for debate, or in attempts of persuasion, to the contrary - i've posted this out of the thought process this thread, and your comments on Origen, has led me on, and the conclusions i've come to in result ... i still believe as i believed at the onset, but because of this topic my explanation of what and why i believe as i do has certainly been refined ... Anyone interested in a short history of ...Origenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OrigenBlessings all!

while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...So now you see where it has lead you... into a conclusion that Christ never was truly equal with God, and according to this statment, you now include the Holy Spirit in this conclusion. You are not the first person to believe these things but the great classical preachers whose traditional Trinitarian orthodoxy is most represented on this site would have strongly disagreed with you.Your statement, as it stands, is a denial of simple logic. You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has more 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't. There can be no shades in this. If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos.

Perhaps with some liberty...But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)

Bro Ron you wrote;"You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has more 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't."Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ... You finished;"If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos."Call me crazy, but in my mind in the three members of the Godhead if collectively they are three in one, and one in three i have no problem wrapping my tiny brain around the Father being the preimenent and superior One of the Godhead, Christ being the middle One - Logos/Word, and Holy Spirit being the third One - Workman of the Godhead ... i have no problem recognizing and believing in Christ' or Holy Spirit's diety just because i believe Christ points out that the Father is the greater One, and apparently (to me) the all knowing One ... To me the mere fact that Christ and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and One with the Father automatically makes them diety, but as i said to my view the Father seems to always call the shots, while the other two members re-act ...i'll not beat this issue anymore as i've said about all i can say ... But again i say thank you for being one of our Lord's instruments for making me delve into this further, and i pray again that if i'm in error from this He will eventually make my error plain so i can change my way of thinking ... But until that time i'll be believing this issue as i now do ...Keep praying for me brother Ron, as i do you! ... :-D

Bro Mike you wrote;"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)If our Lord made the statement that "the day and hour only the Father knows", but expects me to put together that He was also saying (on the sly) that He knows also because He also made the statement that "I and the Father are one", then He's presented me with a riddle ... God knows i ain't good at riddles, and personally in this instance i don't think He's presented me with one ... So until He makes it plainer to this dim-wit :-P i'm gonna take Him literally at His Word ... Pray for me bro!

As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know.But I can't back this up, just sharing something I've heard. Perhaps this makes sense?

Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ... Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit.

Bro Ron you wrote;"Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit."Well i guess that makes me an "un-orthodox Christian" (which i'm sure is no surprise to you and others on SI ...:-D ), and in the mind of some i'm a heretic (being broad here because i'm not trying to stir the pot anymore than i already have) ... Thank God i'm now not under the early Roman Catholic church and it's popery, or i'd be excommunicated by now for sure, if not burned at the stake ... Thank God for Martin Luther, at least under Protestantism those who may find my view defective won't try to run me outta town on a rail, but will instead pray for my enlightenment ... Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

Thanks Warrior4Jah ... you wrote;"As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know."But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ... Christ in His ministry didn't seem to have any trouble remembering His heavenly home with it's many mansions, His Father, the Holy Ghost, the angels in heaven, why He'd come here and whose will He'd come to do, and that of remembering His seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening ... Seems to me that if He remembered all that, He'd certainly have remembered the day and the hour also, but He said only His Father knew, and that's exactly what i think He meant ...OK i'm done for real now ... it doesn't make sense for me to keep re-hashing an impasse ... As i've said to brother Ron if you think me "blind" in this area, please hold me up in prayer to having my spiritual eyes opened ...Blessings in Christ Jesus ... :-D

Hi Rahman,I hope to encourage you not to give up too quickly, but to study this topic out in greater detail. It is of the utmost importance that we have a right view of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit are both essential doctrines of the Christian faith.Almost all major cults have at their root a false view of Jesus Christ. I think it is one thing to say we don't fully comprehend these things, but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity. The overwhelming testimony of scripture is to the contrary. I have some good notes I would share with you if you are interested. Send me a pm and I'll get it to you somehow. ;-)

Bro. Robert you wrote;"but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity."Bro. Robert did you read my posts? ... i'm gonna say this as humbly as i can but if you did i think you're reading into it what you want to hear, and i'd really appreciate it if you'd go back and REALLY hear what i've posted, and not put "your words" in my mouth ... :-o FOR THE RECORD YOU'LL FIND THAT NO WHERE IN MY POSTS DID i DISMISS CHRIST OR THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE TRIUNE GODHEAD OR SAY THEY WERE NOT DIETY ... WHAT i SAID WAS THAT i BELIEVE THERE IS A HIERARCHY IN THE "DIETY" - "TRINITY" - "GODHEAD" !!!!!!! ... BASED ON CHRIST'S WORDS THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HE, AND THAT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DAY AND THE HOUR ... ...i REST MY CASE ... :-D

There's some good points here. I wanted to take a close look at one thing and make a comment though.To me the servanthood of Christ was God's way of showing He was and is willing to submit to the rules He created. In the western mind set I think its hard for us to understand that what God gave us as Laws, principles, precepts, is in reality what His very nature is like, it is what God is and how He operates in His character. The laws of God reflect His very nature. We quote such scripture as "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". The Eastern mind understands whats spoken to be what is in the heart, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Why would John call Jesus the Logos of God ? Jesus was the very expression of the very heart of God.That's why the written Word of God is so important. Because there is a sense in which we can rest in the doing of it in our daily lives, knowing that in so doing we are in practice walking in the spirit, as long as we neglect not our fellowship with the life of God through the Holy Spirit.

Hey Rahman,I do have some ideas about how this might still function (or not), but then again I haven't really gave this thing a good thought yet or some prayer about it to God. But I don't find it that important for me to get to the bottem of this. (if that is even possible)So I'm not going to respond on the (good) thoughts you brought up against it, besides it isn't my thought anyhow. :-P But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ...Christ in His ministry didn't seem to have any trouble remembering His heavenly home with it's many mansions, His Father, the Holy Ghost, the angels in heaven, why He'd come here and whose will He'd come to do, and that of remembering His seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening ... Seems to me that if He remembered all that, He'd certainly have remembered the day and the hour also, but He said only His Father knew, and that's exactly what i think He meant ...OK i'm done for real now ... it doesn't make sense for me to keep re-hashing an impasse ... A while back I've gone through scripture to check if it was true that Jesus might not be God as someone attacked me on that.Know I verified with scripture that Jesus is God, like the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is enough scriptural evidence to point this out. (and I see that this is not really an issue here)We do seek Truth. God has it there to be revealed to you in His word if you need to know.Still we can't possibly understand all about God now and not everything is written down in His word. As its not the goal of the Bible to explain all things. You know, in case you can't find a clear 'theological' answer or some sort of 'all explaining' answer, it's better to accept that you don't know somethings then to fill up the blanks by yourself and treat that as truth. I'm not saying that you do, but I can very imagine that someone starts to wander off the truth because he just 'needs' an answer. Wanting to know everything can be arrogance in a way.Even if we don't fully understand everything about "God's being" or fully understand His ways we can take His Word as Truth because the Bible doesn't conflict itself.As i've said to brother Ron if you think me "blind" in this area, please hold me up in prayer to having my spiritual eyes opened ...Blessings in Christ Jesus ... I don't know if you are 'blind' or not in this area. Its an area where I don't have all the answers myself and probably not fully ever have. It's not important what I think. Don't get me wrong, its good to get to know more about God. Especially in days that people stray of the Truth and accept nonesense and lies about Him. But.. it's better to get to Him better (which won't happen if someone is living in lies) then only getting to know about Him. Psa 34:8 "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." Oh well, what I am trying to say is to be careful while you seek the truth, stay in Him. (Don't you dare to stray off!!)I will pray for you anyhow and God bless! :-)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good(1Thess 5:21).I have been following this thread with great interest. In all honesty I find it difficult to discuss and define God. That is what the Trinity debate is and has been: an attempt by man to define God. I don’t believe that we are equipped to do this with our finite minds. However when we decide to take this step, we have to consider ALL Scriptures, not just those that confirm the “majority” Trinitarian view. Before, anyone calls me a heretic: I believe in a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t believe that the definition used in most Churches is correct.Rahman, I agree with most of what you say, except that I don’t believe that we can define God, be it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, for the Bible tells us exactly what we need to know. This is one thing that Jesus DID NOT command us to do, yet we do. Some Christians explain that Jesus said that His Father was greater than He, because He had emptied Himself and asked the Father in John 17 to receive His glory as He had with Him before He came to the earth. It is true that Jesus emptied Himself and gave up His glory, but He still said: before Abraham was, I AM. By that statement He indicated that He was God and as such, emptied from His glory but still God, He said that the Father was greater than He. This is exactly what the Bible confirms in other places too, that Jesus – being God – was subordinate to the Father. This is the mystery of the Gospel, reconciliation to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son! This is where the Church receives Her power, from the Father through the Son, by means of the Holy Spirit.Because the Bible tells us that we are to Prove All Things, I want to submit the following Scriptures:1 Corinthians 1522 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Verse 28 is quite clear: When ALL things are subdued unto the Son, the Son shall himself be subject onto the Father, SO that God, the Father, may be all in all.Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.The mystery of God finishes in the days of the seventh angel, as He preached to the prophets!Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned [NASB: have begun to reign].Vs. 15 The Kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord [the Father] AND of His Christ. Vs. 17 Lord God Almighty [the Father] have taken Your great power and have begun to reign! This is a confirmation of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 above.John 1017 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.The clue is in the fact that Jesus states: this commandment I received of the Father. One equal doesn’t command another equal. One equal can delegate to make another equal, but for one to submit to another, the last is greater than the first. The Father is greater than the Son, even though they are both God. The strength and effectiveness of the Church is in the fact that through Christ the Father reconciled the world unto Himself not counting their sins against them. When we don’t recognize this as the Church we will not succeed in being co-workers with Christ in our struggle against the devil.I have written in much more detail about this on my website. Just click on The Father’s Final Call under the list of sponsors on the left of the page.

When we don’t recognize this as the Church we will not succeed in being co-workers with Christ in our struggle against the devil.This is a heavy-duty statement, and I need to think about it and examine related scriptures before I dismiss this thought. I notice that most of our songs and prayers are directed to Jesus, but not many towards the Father. We always seem to encourage children to pray: "Dear Jesus... " Are we distorting their image of God? Should we train them to approach the Father? If so, why aren't we? In some hymnals the one song, "Of the Father's Love begotten" has been changed to "Of Eternal Love Begotten" So there seems to be a bent all around to forget about "Our Father which art in heaven..." What actually is wrong with saying, "Our Jesus, which art in heaven.." How would that destroy our "struggle against the devil" I wonder how well the concept of a mediator is understood - ie we cannot approach the Father without a mediator. How many really WANT to see the Father? Then there is the whole religious segment of the church that makes the Holy Spirit their end pursuit. I can easily see the pitfalls. The Spirit ends up being merely one's own desires (just let the Spirit move you, just follow your heart, yikes!) I can see that putting God into segments is not a good idea - everybody takes their favorite segment, and the full picture gets lost. So we end up with a God created in man's image. Just some random thoughts that pop into my mind.

But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ... You are getting yourself deeper into the mire. God is not only omnscient, He is also omnipotent. That means He has all power, including power over His omniscience. (I would recommend that you re-read Tozer; The Knowledge of the Holy.) Was Christ powerless or did He choose not to exercise His power while on earth? Did He suffer 'amnesia' or did He choose 'not to know' as part of His full identification with the human race?Many preachers will tell you that "God will forget your sin". It is not true because that would be 'amnesia'. The scripture declares that God will 'not remember' your sin; which is quite another matter. If I had full control of my mental faculties I would be albe to 'refuse to recall' to my memory specific incidents. Amnesia is a failure of something to function properly, To 'refuse to recall to memory' is a prerogative of God, otherwise none of us would ever stand before Him. “If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” (Psa. 130:3, KJVS) Is that amnesia? of course not! It is an exercise of omnipotence.In his earthly walk as a true human being who remained fully God, how was Christ to experience our life unless he determined to live every moment 'as a man'? This did not make Him 'not God' but enabled his identification with our race to be complete. He choose not to use His divine powers. A wonderful example of this is the wilderness temptation. Satan's attempt was to get him to behave 'as God' and so disqualify him from being our 'high priest'. “And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:3-4, KJVS)The test here is will be use His divine prerogatives and act as 'Son of God' or will He deny His rights and persist in His human mission? The record makes his choice plain. Luke's gospel tells us that after the wilderness temptation 'the devil... departed from him for a season'. There must have been many instances when the possibility of 'behaving as God' was put before Christ. Your Matthew reference... “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matt. 24:36, KJVS)...is simply another exercise of the same choice. He chose 'not to know'; this is part of his settled choice of "refusig to recall" NOT amnesia.

Before, anyone calls me a heretic: I believe in a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t believe that the definition used in most Churches is correct. Now what does this mean? This is a humpty-dumpty-ism. 'when I use a word it means just what I want it to mean'. You cannot redefine the word 'Trinity' to suit your own view of 'Trinity'. Trinity is not a bible word it is a theological word with a specific definition. If you disagree with the definition you are not a believer in The Trinity. You may have your own views and but cannot redefine the word 'Trinity' to claim that you are 'Trinitarian'.I can't help recall the old Star Trek formual; 'it's life Jim, but not as we know it'. 'Life' is not easy to define, but the word Trinity has a specific theological definition. You can't say 'I'm Trinitarian, Jim, but not as Trinitarians know it'. If the Father, Son and Spirit are 'different kinds of gods' you are no longer monotheist.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, after our likeness,........Gen 1:27 God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them,.....Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us,......Us?

A while back I had a discussion about Jesus being God at workstudy with a workstudy collegue and I also showed this in Genesis.Well it basically was wrongly translated or wrongly written down there according to him. Muslims also don't believe that Jesus is God and that there is only one God. :-(

Hi Rahman,I have been behind the scenes following this thread as I am very concerned for your view of the Trinity. I am not trying to batter or bash or anything, I am trying to dialogue and understand and help convey the orthodox view of the Trinity. Also, there may be many listening that are influenced by the thread so we have to point out the error as it is an essential orthodox Christian doctrine that I don't believe is up for grabs. robertw quote "...but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity."Bro. Robert did you read my posts? ... i'm gonna say this as humbly as i can but if you did i think you're reading into it what you want to hear, and i'd really appreciate it if you'd go back and REALLY hear what i've posted, and not put "your words" in my mouth ... Brother, I have no cause whatsoever to read anything into what you are saying. We are not at enmity or any such thing. I don't dislike you or have any beef with you whatsoever. I am simply concerned for what I am reading and wish to help you if possible consider the topic on a deeper level as to have a fuller understanding of what the biblical basis for orthodox Trinitarian doctrine is.___FOR THE RECORD YOU'LL FIND THAT NO WHERE IN MY POSTS DID i DISMISS CHRIST OR THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE TRIUNE GODHEAD OR SAY THEY WERE NOT DIETY ... WHAT i SAID WAS THAT i BELIEVE THERE IS A HIERARCHY IN THE "DIETY" - "TRINITY" - "GODHEAD" !!!!!!! ... BASED ON CHRIST'S WORDS THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HE, AND THAT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DAY AND THE HOUR ... ...My understanding of your position on hierchy ultimately lead me to consider this post. Bro Ron you wrote;"Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit."Bro. Rahman's reply; Well i guess that makes me an "un-orthodox Christian" (which i'm sure is no surprise to you and others on SI ... ), and in the mind of some i'm a heretic (being broad here because i'm not trying to stir the pot anymore than i already have) ... Thank God i'm now not under the early Roman Catholic church and it's popery, or i'd be excommunicated by now for sure, if not burned at the stake ... Thank God for Martin Luther, at least under Protestantism those who may find my view defective won't try to run me outta town on a rail, but will instead pray for my enlightenment ... My understanding of this post is that you had agreed with Ron's observation concerning your position on the Trinity and then declared yourself to be unorthodox and possibly even heretical. I apologize if I gleaned too much from what you said, but it alarms me greatly. There are varying levels of how we view teachings that are different than the established Trinitarian doctrinal statement. The belief, finally established at the Counsel of Nicea in 325, determined that there are Three Persons and one substance. That is, one ousia and three hypostases. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are homo-ousious, that is, of the same essense and substance as the Father. This is why occasionally you will see the term "Tri-unity."This means that all three persons share in ALL of the divine attributes such as omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience. Nor the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ had a beginning or have an ending. They are not lower disadvantaged demigods and God the Father is the one True God; they are all three Yahwah or Jehovah (which ever you prefer). Variations from this view are seen as :1) Suborthodox: less than orthodoxy, but not explicitly contrary to orthodoxy.2) Hetrodox: varying from orthodoxy in some significant way.3) Unorthodox: varying from orthodoxy seriously, but not quite heretically.4) Heretical: Doctrine which denies one or more essential Christian doctrines in such a way as to bring a division in the Body.In answer to the idea of hierarchy it is important to note that they do not have three individual wills as if one desired to do one thing and another desired to do another. Christ in His humanity said plainly, "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." It was in His humaness that the struggle existed. God Bless,-Robert

Dear Rahman,I haven't had a chance yet to read through all these posts as of yet, although I will. I am excited to hear everyone's responses. However, I did come across your quote and I wanted to make a comment. FOR THE RECORD YOU'LL FIND THAT NO WHERE IN MY POSTS DID i DISMISS CHRIST OR THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE TRIUNE GODHEAD OR SAY THEY WERE NOT DIETY ... WHAT i SAID WAS THAT i BELIEVE THERE IS A HIERARCHY IN THE "DIETY" - "TRINITY" - "GODHEAD" !!!!!!! ... BASED ON CHRIST'S WORDS THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HE, AND THAT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DAY AND THE HOUR ...I do understandy why you are saying that there is a hierarchy in the trinity as established by the scripture I gave, and by the fact Jesus said the father is greater than He. However.....There are a few things you must understand about this. Firstly, Jesus was a man. As a man, the Father was greater than He. Jesus, who is God, was lowered below the angels and came to earth as a lowly human. By this, the Father was greater than Jesus. Jesus said this to establish that He was a man. He had all the same limitations as we do. He suffered under the same temptations and conditions that we do in the flesh. He was completely dependent on the Father. Jesus could and did die. However, by Jesus saying the Father was greater than He had nothing to do with authority or hierarchy.Jesus said that the father gave Him all the authority in Heaven and Earth. This means, Jesus has all the authority. By this statement, He was establishing that He was equal to the father in power. God did not have more power than Jesus, for God had given all His power to Jesus. This is a significant statement. God is not a God who shares His supremacy. God is one God. This is established consistently throughout the bible even by Jesus. God is one. Even the Devil knows this. There is nothing greater than God, and nothing equal with God, other than Himself. And it can be no other way. God is a jealous God. He does not share His worship with anyone. The ten commandments establish this. God hates idols. And so, if God gave His power and authority away to another being, then this makes God the biggest Hypocrit of all. Why would God give away His diety?He didn't give His diety away to another being, He gave His authority away to Himself. Jesus is God.Jesus is God as a man. God established His human identity in Jesus so that we could worship Him in Spirit and truth. How can we worship a God that we don't know?? Before Jesus, God was just some unseen Spirit in the sky. However, when God came to earth as Jesus, we could see actually relate to God as a person. By this, we could actually worship a God we know, rather than a God we imagine. However, Jesus is not less than God in authority or power. There is no hierarchy. When Jesus returned to Heaven, He was again restored to His position above the angels at the right hand of God. He is no longer limited, as we are limited, by the flesh. Jesus says that He is at the right hand of God for a good reason. Nothing He says is by any mistake. And it makes sense. Jesus is God, however, this is something we humans must accept by faith. We are not forced to accept Jesus as God. When we are saved, we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This means, that we make Jesus our God. We submit unto Jesus as our God.Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Who will be at the right hand of God? In Matthew, Jesus talks about seperating out the sheeps and goats. All those that belong to Jesus will be in His right hand. And so, Jesus will be God over all those who have chosen Him, all those who have made Him thier God. For those in Jesus' left hand, they have denied Jesus. They have chosen to make something else thier God. Jesus cannot be thier God. And since Jesus is God, if you deny Jesus, you are denying God. If you deny God, then God rebukes you. So, you see, Jesus is God. (There is no hierarchy). However, His diety will only be recognized by those who believe in Him. Jesus will only be accepted as being God by those who believe Him. That is why those who don't accept Jesus are cast into Hell. They are stripping God of His diety. They are refusing to recognize God as God, and instead are accepting something else as God.When you establish a hierarchy, you are seperating God into three parts. This is a dangerous proposition, especially in the case of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Secondly, you must also understand that while Christ was on earth, He represented all that we were supposed to be. God came to earth to show us how it is done, so to speak. We are Christian, followers of Christ. A follower follows the leader. We are to be Christ-like. We are not Christ Himself, however, we try to be like Him. Based on this, I think it makes sense then why Jesus did so many things like He did. Obviously, Jesus did not come out and say, "I am God." He was trying to teach us how to submit unto God. Notice how Jesus always submitted unto the father. Jesus always gave God credit, and always submitted to the will of God. He did this to demonstrate how we should act. We are to mimic Jesus. Jesus never acted in selfishness. His every action was done in love for our benefit. His every word was for our benefit. Jesus set the example. And so, Jesus, who is God in all ways, came to earth as one of us. He was God and man. Jesus made this clear by calling Himself the "son of God" and the "son of man." However, you should be careful to say there is a hierarchy in the trinity. By this, you are dividing God into three parts. There is no division in God. That is why Jesus said: John 10:30 - (NLT) "The Father and I are one."John 14:9 - (NLT)Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?John 8:19 - (NLT)"Where is your father?" they asked. Jesus answered, "Since you don't know who I am, you don't know who my Father is. If you knew me, then you would know my Father, too."Hope this helps you to understand. In love,Blake

Verse 28 is quite clear: When ALL things are subdued unto the Son, the Son shall himself be subject onto the Father, SO that God, the Father, may be all in all.Here's a couple of clips from John Wesley and Matthew Henry that may help shed some light on this verse...The Son also shall be subject - Shall deliver up the mediatorial kingdom. That the three - one God may be all in all - All things, (consequently all persons,) without any interruption, without the intervention of any creature, without the opposition of any enemy, shall be subordinate to God. All shall say, "My God, and my all." This is the end. Even an inspired apostle can see nothing beyond this. -from John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole BibleThe meaning of this I take to be that then the man Christ Jesus, who hath appeared in so much majesty during the whole administration of his kingdom, shall appear upon giving it up to be a subject of the Father. Things are in scripture many times said to be when they are manifested and made to appear; and this delivering up of the kingdom will make it manifest that he who appeared in the majesty of the sovereign king was, during this administration, a subject of God. The glorified humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, with all the dignity and power conferred on it, was no more than a glorious creature. This will appear when the kingdom shall be delivered up; and it will appear to the divine glory, that God may be all in all, that the accomplishment of our salvation may appear altogether divine, and God alone may have the honour of it. Note, Though the human nature must be employed in the work of our redemption, yet God was all in all in it. It was the Lord's doing and should be marvellous in our eyes. -from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole BibleAlso, when considering the Trinity I believe it is important to always keep the principle of the Cross clearly in view. This is the principle of living for and unto Another. This principle is clearly demonstrated within the Godhead, no member lives for or unto Himself, but Each lives for and unto the Other. The Father intends that in all things the Son might have the pre-eminance. The Son in turn lives to reveal the Father and thus brings glory and pleasure to Him. Likewise the Spirit speaks not of Himself but dedicates His activity to reveal the Son and to realize the purpose and goal of the Father and Son. Moreover the Father and the Son are dependent on the Spirit to fulfill the eternal economy of their Trinitarian purpose. The Triune God is interdependent upon Each Other for the common goals of the triune administration.In Christ,Ron

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1Thess. 5:21).Quote: Hi Roadsign, and thank you to all who contributed to this thread.Good questions and they are all answered in the Bible. If God’s Spirit lives in us, according to the apostle Paul we cry out Abba! Father! The Bible tells us that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Seal given by the Father to all those who confess Jesus as their Lord.If one claims to believe in Jesus as their Lord it means that one has to commits him/herself unto Jesus. That is what the Greek word “pisteuo,” “believe or commit unto,” means. In Matthew 12:28 Jesus says: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. What He is saying is that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit, He casts out the demons. He told His disciples to do the same in His name. The seven sons of Sceva as told in Acts 19:13-16, didn’t have the Holy Spirit, if they had they would have commanded the evil spirit to leave in Jesus’ name, with the power of the Holy Spirit.How do we know that what we do in the name of Jesus is correct? There is really only one way: one of places this is recorded is found in Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.If I read this directly from my Bible it states that I have received the Spirit of Adoption by which I cry out Abba! Father! It is the same Spirit Who tells me that I am a child of God [the Father]. It states even more: If I cry out Abba! Father!, because the Spirit in me causes me to do this, I am an heir of God [the Father], AND a joint-heir with Christ.That is why Jesus came, to save us from our sin and reconcile us to the Father. The Father begat Jesus, not visa versa. The writer of Hebrews declares this in vs. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. The Father declared the Son to be God, not the other way around. The Father can do all that He wants, He exalted Jesus, He gave Him a name above every other name. He gave Him the throne. This is all we have to know, if we continue to explain and justify more, we place ourselves on the same footing as God. Even though Jesus explained that He cast out devils by the Spirit of God, yet when He prayed to His Father, He never mentioned the Holy Spirit as a part of His prayers. Why do we? Paul didn’t, and He told us to imitate him as he was an imitator of Christ. Why don’t we imitate Paul? Who told us to do these things, when the Bible doesn’t tell us that it was God?If Jesus told us to ask the Father in His name, than that is what we must do. If we don’t, we are adding to Scripture. I just read some more on this thread, for that reason I will close with one more Scripture. It is a quote from God’s Word and that is all we have been given to test the truth, and in this Scripture it clearly states that God the Father is the head of God the Son. This is written after Jesus had ascended into heaven. Anyone is entitled to explain that as they desire, but for me it means that the Father is the head of Christ. This lines up with all other quotes from Jesus Himself. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, they are ever present, all knowing, ever lasting, i.e. every Godly quality exists in all Three, since They are all God. But they are not the Same, and yet They are One. Thank You Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that I don’t have to understand the mystery of God, but that You revealed all we needed to know through Your Holy Spirit. Amen.The only practical test we have been given is the fruit of the Spirit. Interestingly the first and main fruit of the Spirit quoted is LOVE. I have non-Christian friends that respond a lot kinder than some of the respondents on SI. So I have found only one true test: the Spirit of His Son in me, and He causes me to cry out Abba! Father! Thank You Father for saving me through Your Son, My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and giving me Your Holy Spirit, by which I cry out: Abba! Father! Amen.

just read some more on this thread, for that reason I will close with one more Scripture. It is a quote from God’s Word and that is all we have been given to test the truth, and in this Scripture it clearly states that God the Father is the head of God the Son. This is written after Jesus had ascended into heaven. Anyone is entitled to explain that as they desire, but for me it means that the Father is the head of Christ. This lines up with all other quotes from Jesus Himself. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, they are ever present, all knowing, ever lasting, i.e. every Godly quality exists in all Three, since They are all God. But they are not the Same, and yet They are One.I think you are missing the point in the first part of this quotation. There are mysteries of godhead which are before and after the story of man's redemption. No one doubts that in the work of redemption the Word became man and that man ascended to the throne of God. The question which has been raised here is whether or not the Word was always subservient to the Father or whether or not that is part of the price he paid for our redemption. His subservience was not out of duty or compulsion but was the voluntary giving of one who knew he was 'equal with God'. If every Godly quality exists in each member of the Godhead, it cannot be that in 'essence' the Word is in any way 'less' than the Father.Campbell Morgan used to say that the Isaiah passage was a heavenly event 'overheard' by Isaiah, and was a conversation within the Godhead;“Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” (Is. 6:8a, KJVS) This is a fascinating concept. We do not know if this is the case but this would certainly accord with what the scriptures reveal of the Word.Another aspect which must not be forgotten is the whole question of the value of the 'blood' which was shed. God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. If, in any measure, the Word is 'less' than the Father is creates a scenario in which the greater submits the lesser to be the sacrifice. This must be a cooperation of 'equals' for the value of the price paid on the cross to be protected.

Even though Jesus explained that He cast out devils by the Spirit of God, yet when He prayed to His Father, He never mentioned the Holy Spirit as a part of His prayers. Why do we? Paul didn’t, and He told us to imitate him as he was an imitator of Christ. Why don’t we imitate Paul? Who told us to do these things, when the Bible doesn’t tell us that it was God?It seems you can't have it both ways here. You ask why don't we imitate Paul? Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus asking Him to remove the thorn in his flesh as found in 2 Corinthians 12. Shouldn't we imitate Paul in this area?In ChristRon

This also brings up some interesting scenerios if the Father is, in essence, greater than the Son, then, according to Paul's description of the relationship between husband and wife being in correllation to that of the Father and the Son, Man is above the woman and a woman is a lessor creation. According to the scriptures anyway, if we are to hold to this flawed interpretation.Scripture also says that Jesus was a little lower than the angels....then are we to assume that one part of the Godhead is not only lesser than the other but also is lesser than its own creation?If I'm to follow the logic of the arguments presented here, that Jesus in the essence of His divinity is lesser than the Father, then these are the conclusions I must draw.

Dear InTheLight2 Corinthians 122 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.In this Scripture explains that he is beseeching the Lord as face-to-face being taken up in the third heaven. This is, outside of the time he speaks to Jesus on the road to Damascus, the only time that Paul speaks directly to Jesus.It is not the way I want it, it is the way I understand Scripture. Paul was taught by Christ directly. Most of us are taught through the Word and by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

There are some passages we need to compare between the Old and New Testaments in order to understand just who Jesus Christ really is. Here are just a few:For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Matthew 3:3)This corresponds to Isaiah 40:3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.LORD in this passage is Jehovah. This is the highest name for God in the Hebrew Language. It was so sacred that Jews would mispronounce it out of reverence. Scribes had to wash themselves before and after they wrote that name. To this day you will hear Jews refer to God as "Hashem"; this word means "The Name." That name is YHWH or the Tetragrammaton.And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev. 22:12)Corresponds to:Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Isaiah 40:10) Here Lord God is Adonay Jehovah. This is God almighty or YHWH as He was known in the Old Testament. God Bless,-Robert

If I'm to follow the logic of the arguments presented here, that Jesus in the essence of His divinity is lesser than the Father, then these are the conclusions I must draw.Since, you cannot see the expression on my face, and the feeling in my heart, I will explain it. I am not angry; I don’t want to prove that I am right. I don’t dislike anyone. I have a passion for God and if you think that I am wrong, I love you anyway. I have a deep conviction of what I believe the witness of the Spirit within me tells me, but I will not be offended if you don’t believe this or agree with it. This is a Forum which stands for seeking truth I have been told and the Bible verse quoted in the heading of this Forum tells us “To Test Everything, Hold on to the Good.” That is what I honestly do. I also honestly have observed that if I want to “worship with the brethren” I have to make a choice, who agrees the most with what I understand from Scripture. If I want to obtain a Christian education I have to choose a College or University which teaches what I believe approaches the truth as I see it. Forgive me; this cannot be led by the Holy Spirit Who, as Jesus promised, would lead us into all truth. In the Christian Church of 2005 we have a multitude of truths. How did we get them? By interpreting God’s Word; not accepting it, but interpreting it. Why don’t we go back to the very beginning? In the Garden of Eden, the serpent said to Eve: Indeed, has God said? (NASB). It wasn’t Eve who interpreted the Word of God, it was the devil. The devil hasn’t changed his tactics, he still asks us: Indeed, has God said?This is the reason why I believe it is unholy to go into a “debate” about the Trinity. It is unholy because it takes away from our God. We don’t have the ability or the insight to decide the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, outside of what the Scriptures themselves reveal. I don’t want to get embroiled in this, it does not honor our God, and it never has. Our God is Holy that is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If Paul writes that The Father is the Head of Christ, then that is not logic of an argument, it is a quote of Scripture. And if my acceptance of Scripture is flawed so be it. Please remember that when Eve doubted, she fell.When we read that the Father begot the Son, and declared Him to be God. That is what God has told us. If Jesus declares that His Father commanded Him to lay down His life. That is what God revealed to us in Scripture. When the prophet Isaiah prophesies: For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6), it is God’s revealed Word, nothing more and nothing less. It is not a Scripture to use in interpreting the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. It is the revealed Word of God, no more and no less.When the Bible declares that Man is the head of Woman, that is God’s Word not mine, or anyone else’s. If we want to interpret this, that’s fine, but it becomes man’s interpretation of God’s Word. All Jesus ever told us to do is to obey Him, not to interpret Him. With all due respect, but in our churches we continue to interpret and then obey Jesus according to our interpretation, and not according to His Word.If it is flawed to believe that when one has received the Spirit of Adoption, and as a result only wants to ask the Father in the name of Jesus, just as Jesus asked His Father, and told us to do the same, so be it: my understanding of having the Spirit of His Son live in me is flawed. But I wouldn’t trade it for this entire world. I believed that if all Christians would accept that when the Bible tells us this, we would hear from the same Spirit, for it is the Spirit of His Son. But time and again, disagreement arises. Does nobody see that the Holy Spirit gives only ONE truth and that this truth should begin with a love and adoration of our heavenly Father, in obedience to the leading of the Spirit of His Son? God bless you all.

In this Scripture explains that he is beseeching the Lord as face-to-face being taken up in the third heaven. This is, outside of the time he speaks to Jesus on the road to Damascus, the only time that Paul speaks directly to Jesus. It is not the way I want it, it is the way I understand Scripture. Paul was taught by Christ directly.I'm not sure that proximity has anything to do with the matter but regardless, it does not follow that Paul was face to face with Jesus when he made this request for the thorn to be removed. It seems the thorn came after the revelations, it was given to keep Paul from spiritual pride. I believe the thorn was persecutions by the Jews during Paul's ministry. If the request of the Lord was made in a face to face encounter with Him, why was it made multiple times (thrice)? In a face to face, wouldn't Jesus have answered the question immediately and put the matter to rest? Why would Paul have made this same request again in the same encounter or in other encounters? Also, if Paul was caught up into heaven wasn't he also in the presence of the Father? But the request was directed to the Son.Just trying to make sense of it all. In Christ,Ron

Dear Ron,So am I. Jesus told us that His Words had to abide in us. When we can't even agree on what words and how to interpret them, can we ever agree?I believe that we make a dreadful mistake by continually interpreting God's Word. We leave ourselves open to doubt and whispers in our ear by the tempter.Christ didn't come to form hundreds of different denominations. He came to build one Church and He promised us One Holy Spirit.I have chosen to imitate Christ by praying the way He prayed, to our heavenly Father. What has happened to me over the last few years is that I cannot pray any other way, it bothers me and I loose the intimacy with my Father.I don't want to go back there. It is for this reason that I struggle with all the different interpretations. One Holy Spirit leading us in all truth, should give us only One Truth.Bless you brother,

I have chosen to imitate Christ by praying the way He prayed, to our heavenly Father. What has happened to me over the last few years is that I cannot pray any other way, it bothers me and I loose the intimacy with my Father.We are called to intimate union with Christ, the pre-emminent One. To me, worshipping, praising, and making petition towards God the Son is just as natural as towards God the Father. There is no loss of intimacy either way. Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus!Ron

Dear Brother Rahman, So until He makes it plainer to this dim-wit i'm gonna take Him literally at His Word ... Pray for me bro!We must be cautious to take the words of Jesus literally. Everything Jesus did and said had meaning that often times was said in ways to hide the truth to anyone who was not a true follower. However, if we take every word from Christ as being literal, then it can lead us in all sorts of crazy directions.For example:Matthew 17:20 - (NLT)"You didn't have enough faith," Jesus told them. "I assure you, even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed you could say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it would move. Nothing would be impossible."Has anyone tried to move a mountain by speaking to it? Have you ever heard of anyone doing this? Does this mean we don't have enough faith? John 3:3-4 (NLT)3 Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never see the Kingdom of God." 4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?Nicodemus took what Jesus said literally. Jesus had to explain further this truth in order that he could understand. Even then, the disciples could not understand what He was saying until the Holy Spirit came. John 6:51 - 53 (NLT)51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; this bread is my flesh, offered so the world may live."52 Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked. 53 So Jesus said again, "I assure you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.There are many more examples. Everything Jesus said held deeper wisdom that requires the Holy Spirit to discern. We must be careful to take every word of Jesus as being literal and exact. Jesus spoke of many spiritual things that there is no comprehension of here on earth. We have a desperate need of God in all things, including wisdom and understanding. I pray the Lord will guide you, and all of us, to a greater understanding of Him. In love,Blake

Dear LetUsPray,If Jesus told us to ask the Father in His name, than that is what we must do. If we don’t, we are adding to Scripture. There is so much I want to say, but I don't have time. I must keep this short and to the point. I was raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe that Jesus was a man. They believe Jesus died for our sins. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. They believe that we need to pray through Jesus. For most of my life, I have prayed. I prayed to the Father, whose name as they said, is Jehovah. I prayed every night ending my prayer with this statement, "in the name of Jesus." I believed Jesus died for my sins. However, for 26 years, I heard no answer from above. We were told just as you said in that quote, not to pray to Jesus. And so, I never did, until the night I was saved. The night I was saved, I called out to Jesus, and He answered my prayers. We are saved by Jesus Christ. That is why we call Him Savior and Redeemer. When Jesus saves us, we accept Him as our Lord and Savior. To accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior means that we submit unto Jesus, and not just as lover, we submit unto Him as God. A Lord is someone who rules over us. A Savior is someone who we owe our life to for saving ours. By this, we willing submit unto Jesus as our God.The night I was saved, I gave my life to Christ. I am called His. I am a Christian. He is mine. Jesus Christ is my God.I don't know any other God besides for Jesus. This "father" figure everyone talks about is a mystery. Have you ever met Him? Have you ever seen Him? Do you know Him by anything other than the bible? I have met Jesus. I know Him personally. He came down from Heaven and saved my life. Everyday I converse with Him. This is the God I know.The Spirit of God is also in you. This Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is God. Jesus is your God. Whether you recognize this with your mind or not, the Spirit of Christ inside you knows this. Lastly, the scripture above says, "Prove all things." Debating helps to prove things. When people debate they share knowledge and are able to weigh all things in accord with each other. This helps us to strengthen and increase our knowledge. I do agree, though, that we should be a bit more loving in our presentation of our debates. We all act very fearful, like cats caught in a corner with our claws poised. However, even so, we should be forgiving of each other. The reason we all speak as we do, is that we care. We believe in what we say. All these words we share are shared with deep passion and love. That is why we all come on so strongly. All things should be done so as to encourage each other and build each other up. At least, that is my goal. And I do hope you take my words in love, for they are not meant to be anything less. In love,Blake

From what I've read, and it's really hard to follow some of the reasoning here, there seems to be some who have circular reasoning as concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Paul calls the Godhead a great mystery. I've always likened it to the SUN , the center(or nucleus) is Like the Father, the effulgence or out shining-- that visiable representation or manifestation is the Son, and the invisible rays or that which effects the earth is the Holy Spirit. That much like a 2 dementional tri-angle with its 3 sides is another way to represent the trinity. In both cases you completely change the object if you lessen or take away any part from the whole.

I admit that I'm no scholar like you people are. There is one unanswered nagging question that goes through my mind as I read the posts. I ask: "So what? I know you all agree in the deity of Christ, and so no one is dethroning him. But beyond that, I'm trying to wrap my mind around something that I can take with me. I haven't found that yet. When it comes to the average person on the street, or in the pew, what REALLY is the issue we are dealing with regarding trinity doctrine? I say, each person has their own theology - largely depending on their background. I once knew a lady who could not worship God as "Father" because if made her think of a mean, punitive deity, so therefore she only worshipped Jesus ( she said) He made her feel better. By the way, this lady abandoned the entire faith, and I do not believe that she ever really knew either the Son or the Father or the Spirit. She had a distant, absentee father and very controlling mother, and still had a lot of forgiveness issues to come to terms with. Everone's view of God is colored by their past experience - even if they may have studied theology classes. So if we want to be helpful, I think we have to move on.... to where the rubber hits the road.Diane

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.There is a certain number that will be in Christ, that is the fullness of the Gentiles and when it is come in. This number and day and the rest of them that are alive and left on this earth who will not prevent the dead in Christ, He know exactly their number also, they are in Him.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Matt 24:36 does not say that Jesus Christ does not know the the day and hour of this fullness of those that are in Christ. It only says man and angels don't know and that we should be listening for His voice and the Trumpet of God and the voice of the Arch Angel, when that day will be revealed and the Body of Christ will be taken home to our Fathers House where each one of us has a place prepared for him. If it were not so I would have told you. He knows the number of places exactly that are being prepared and when they will be finished. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.If you look up the word >only< it does not mean the Father only. 3441. monosSearch for G3441 in KJVSLmonoV monos mon'-osprobably from 3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:--alone, only, by themselves.Jesus did know that the Father did not want this day or hour revealed, and would not answer the question for that reason.You can't use Matt 24:36 to prove that God the Father has more power than Christ or the Holy Spirit. Try Again.In Christ: Phillip

Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.There is a certain number that will be in Christ, that is the fullness of the Gentiles and when it is come in. This number and day and the rest of them that are alive and left on this earth who will not prevent the dead in Christ, He know exactly their number also, they are in Him.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Matt 24:36 does not say that Jesus Christ does not know the the day and hour of this fullness of those that are in Christ. It only says man and angels don't know and that we should be listening for His voice and the Trumpet of God and the voice of the Arch Angel, when that day will be revealed and the Body of Christ will be taken home to our Fathers House where each one of us has a place prepared for him. If it were not so I would have told you. He knows the number of places exactly that are being prepared and when they will be finished. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.If you look up the word >only< it does not mean the Father only. 3441. monosSearch for G3441 in KJVSLmonoV monos mon'-osprobably from 3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:--alone, only, by themselves.Jesus did know that the Father did not want this day or hour revealed, and would not answer the question for that reason.You can't use Matt 24:36 to prove that God the Father has more power than Christ or the Holy Spirit. Try Again.In Christ: Phillip

oops, sorry did not mean to post twice.

I think we have moved on to the edges and thought that a laying down on the fundamentals might help to see the issues more clearly. I have started a new thread godhead.

Dear Diane,So what?I agree that the important thing in all this is to recognize the diety of Christ in relation to ourselves. We are less and Christ is more. When we truly recognize this, we will seek after Him for salvation. In addition, there is a crucial aspect to all this you must realize. God desires our worship. God, as a person with an established identity, wants our worship chosen in love. He doesn't want us to just worship any God or any person, He wants us to worship specifically Him.Exodus 20:3 (NLT)Do not worship any other gods besides me.Exodus 34:14 (NLT)You must worship no other gods, but only the LORD, for he is a God who is passionate about his relationship with you.Deuteronomy 5:9a (NLT)You must never worship or bow down to them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not share your affection with any other god! Mark 12:29-30 (NLT) 29 Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.' The worship we give God is not forced. God wants our love, which means He wants us to worship Him by choice. He wants us to worship Him willingly. He has taken great pains, including death, to make sure that we have this freedom in order to make this choice.How can you worship God if you don't know Him? How can you love God, if you don't know Him? This goes beyond theology and doctrine. What we are talking about is establishing a relationship. You can't have an intimate relationship with a person that you don't know. How many people have fallen in love with each other, and yet have never met? John 4:23-24 (NLT)But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.To worship God in truth means to worship the true God in true love. In order to worship the true God, you must know who He is. In order to worship God in true love, you must be able to choose God by choice without fear of consequence. Jesus made a way for this to be possible. We come to Jesus by faith, by believing in Him. The diety of Christ is not something forced upon us either, it is something we choose to accept willingly. We choose to submit unto Christ as our Lord. The second part says that we must worship God in Spirit. This implies that we must worship God in a specific way. God doesn't want us to worship Him in just any way. Deuteronomy 12:4 (NLT)"Do not worship the LORD your God in the way these pagan peoples worship their gods.God wants our worship to be reflective of Him, to be in Spirit. We could easily go out and do evil things and say we are doing them for God. However, this is not worshipping God in Spirit. To worship God in Spirit, is to be willingly controlled by the Spirit of God, so that our worship brings honor and glory to God. It means our worship is good, and only God can be good. Therefore, in order for our worship to be good, we must be filled with God. Lastly, God is Spirit. So, in order to worship Him in truth, we must do so in Spirit. As you can see, understanding God is an important matter. It is important for the development of our relationship with Him. It is important in our worship to Him. It is important for having our prayers answered. I hope this helps,In love,Blake

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. We as Christ Ones are chosen from our mothers womb to have this Mystery born again in us, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.We were with Christ on the Cross and our old self, the old man that Paul speaks about in Romans was crucified with Christ. It is no longer us who live this Christian Life but Christ who lives in us. This is the power of all that we are as Christians. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.We are one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father. Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].The Holy Spirit is our teacher to learn this Christ that is in us. Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. I don't like to commingle Christ's message of the Kingdom with the Gospel of Paul, which is Christ in you, not Jesus of Nazareth offering Himself to Israel as King. This is a very good scripture that shows that, Seek the Christ who is in you and The Holy Spirit that teaches Him and all these things will be added to us.Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Who is the Kingdom of God? Christ.In Christ: Phillip

"When it comes to the average person on the street, or in the pew, what REALLY is the issue we are dealing with regarding trinity doctrine?"While our held doctrine of the Trinity is a matter of our objective faith, the real issue of the Trinity has to do with our experience of God. For Instance Ephesians 2:18 says, 'We both have access in one Spirit to God the Father through Jesus Christ". This is conserning not our opinion but our comming to and access to God in experience.Unless we realize that God is Triune, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit and that the three of the Godhead not only mutually co-exist but also co-inhere and cannot be separated, We cannot enter into the enjoyment of the Triune God in our experience.I believe most Christians have the view that the Father sent the Son from Heaven, The Son returned and sent the Holy Spirit to take His place. This is a very Trithiestic view of God.The Fact revealed in Scripture is that the Father sent the Son but the Father was also in the Son. Jesus said, "the Father who is in Me, He does the works". This is co-inherence. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. The Spirit is the transmission or outflowing of the Father in the Son bringing the Triune God into us.The Father is the Fountian, the Son is the Spring, and the Spirit is the river of the Water of Life.IN John 14 the Lord Jesus said, "In that day (when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you". This is related to our experience. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in us as the Spirit. And we are in the Son and the Son is in the FAther. Where HE is we are there also. And this reality is made known to us in our experience by the Spirit.1 Corinthians 15:45 says of Christ in resurrection, "the Last Adam became a Life Giving Spirit" That is, in resurrection Christ's humanity was glorified and as He died as the last Adam in the old creation, in resurrection He brought into being the New Creation and as the Life Giving Spirit imparts Himself into us to be our indwelling LIfe when we believe into HIm.And comming into us He comes in in all that He is as the embodimemt of the Triune God, crucified and resurrected. So today the Spirit which we recive includes all that Christ is and all He has accomplished. IN the New Testament the Spirit is called, "the Holy Spirit, the Life Giving Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Holyness, and just plain "the Spirit in Galatians"As Andrew Murray points out in his book, 'The Spirit of Christ" The Spirit in the New Testament is not just the Divine Spirit, but the Divine Spirit interwoven or "compounded" with Christ's glorified humanity so that we recieve not merely the Spirit of God but also the Spirit of God with glorified humanity in Christ.This is also in keeping with the Type of the Holy anointing oil in Exoduse which was a compound of Olive Oil (which always signifies the Divine Spirit) and 4 spices which signify Christ's humanity, His death and its effectiveness, and His resurrection and its power. IT is in reference to this that in John 7 when the Lord Jesus spoke of the rivers of Living water which would flow out of us, it is written, "But this He spake of the Spirit who was not yet because Jesus had not been glorified.Unless we get hold of the reality that the Spirit who indwells us in our regenerated spirit is not just a divine influence, but God Himself and includes everything Christ is and has accomplished, we will not fully enter into and enjoy this rich treasure which has been sown into us.Unless we realize that the FAther is not merely off somewhere in heaven but is in the Son and the Son is in us we will not have the enjoyment of fellowship with the FAther in the Son through the Spirit. And that the Son is not only in heaven enthroned, but He is also within us as the Life Giving Spirit. As It is written in 1 Cor 6:17, He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Our regenerated human spirit is mingled with the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. He is in us and we are in Him. The doctrine of the Triinity is not just for our creed or our profession of faith, It is for us to know and enter into the enjoyment of the Triune God through the redemption in Christ as our indwelling LIfe and Life supply. Until we have this revelation, we cannot have the enjoyment of the reality.Grafted Branch