godhead

I think in our studies of the Trinity we might do well to try to start at the beginning rather than jump in half way through the story. One recent post-er on SI asked the question "so what"? The simply answer to that is that this is how God has chosen to reveal Himself, not to satisfy our intellectual curiosity, nor even to inform us biblically but because this is the way He wants us to know Him. This is His 'self-introduction'. I will post a few times on this but will try to do so in 'bite size' posts.IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORDThe Gospel according to John begins with two amazing verses. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. (Joh 1:1-2 KJV)The link to the opening words of the Old Testament is intentional. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV) Genesis does not attempt to explain God but simply declares the fact of his creative work. When the first pages of our Bibles are opened God is already there. The Bible is God’s gift to man and its truths are for men’s benefit. There are many truths that are not in the Bible but here we have all we can ever need to know how God regards men and how we are to regard God.In simple terms this opening sentence tells us that God is ‘older’ than the creation. The scriptures reveal later that God is eternal; without beginning or ending. The phrase ‘in the beginning’ introduces a time frame in which the remainder of man’s story is unfolded; here we find its beginning and in the book of the Revelation we find its culmination. But God began the beginning; when the beginning was begun God already ‘was’. The human mind can only work with events in a time frame. We may use words like ‘eternal’ but our mind is not designed to work with these concepts. God is before time and after time. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psa 90:2 KJV)When John began his story he consciously opens at this same point; in the ‘time’ before time, before the beginning was begun. Those who knew Genesis might have expected him to start with the words in the beginning was God, but he doesn’t. In the first verse he reveals two distinguishable identities; the Word and the one he calls God. He reveals the relationship between these two identities; their distinctive personhood and their unity in equality; theologians call this astonishing revelation – trinity. They have tried to express the inexpressible in careful sentences to exclude error but their statements are by no means the last word. If we read ahead a little in John’s account we read of an event in the history of one of these persons; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (Joh 1:14 NASB) We shall return to this verse later but for now we can use it to further identify one of the persons we read of in the first sentences. The word became flesh i.e. human; a person who was not human became human. As the story unfolds it becomes quite clear that John is speaking about the person known to history as Jesus of Nazareth. Other recorders of events tell the story of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. He is known, to a certain degree, to history and his life was lived in a well known time-frame. He had a beginning, a middle and an end; or so it seemed at first.But the Bible tells us that the beginning of Jesus of Nazareth was like no beginning before it. He was not ‘fathered’ but was virgin born. In fact, the natural birth of Jesus of Nazareth was the Word becoming flesh. No one would speak of an ordinary child, in reference to his birth, by saying ‘he became human’. Someone could only ‘become human’ who was not ‘human’ before he ‘became human’. Who was this then, whose conception was a ‘point of entry’ into the human race? It is to explain this amazing fact that John begins his account as he does. If he was not human before he was human ‘who was he?’or ‘what was he?’ What options do we have? Some religions believe in the possibility of re-incarnation but the Bible dismisses this possibility very plainly; …it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Heb 9:27 NASB) One religious group teach that an angel became human, but again the Bible dismisses the possibility And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb 1:6 ASV) (the word ‘firstborn’ is a honoured title not a biological description) This command to ‘all the angels’ would have resulted in Jesus of Nazareth worshipping himself. What other options do we have in identifying the one who became human? The possibilities have narrowed to only one possible ‘suspect’; God became human. How could this be?John uses a very simple word four times in his opening sentences. It is the verb ‘was’ meaning ‘to exist’. But he uses it in the ‘imperfect tense’ which is the way we, and they, expressed continual past states. It is like opening a door into a room, seeing a seated person and then recounting your experience. “when I entered” you say “he was sitting in a chair”. That ‘was sitting’ is your ‘imperfect tense’. From the moment your story begins someone was ‘already sitting’. When John opens his door upon the ‘beginning’ someone ‘already was’; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. (Joh 1:1-2 KJV). In the beginning, the Word (already) was, and the Word was (already) with God, and the Word was (already) God. The same was (already) in the beginning with God. It is mind-blowing, but it is God’s revelation entrusted to John, and to us.

and the Word was with GodHe then reveals that the Word was with God. Those old Greeks were very precise with their thinking and the use of their words. What does ‘with God’ mean here? The Greeks had a word which really meant ‘together with’ to be used in such circumstances as ‘I worked with my brother’. They had another one which really meant ‘by the side of’ to be used in such circumstances as ‘I stood with my brother’. They had yet another one which really means ‘towards’ or ‘facing’. It not only put two people together it showed which way they were facing; this is the word used here; the Word was face to face with God. Used in this way it speaks of intimacy; there is movement in this word for ‘with’. We are not to think of God and the Word ‘side by side’ but ‘towards’ each other in face to face fellowship.This is a revelation that only rarely peeped around the curtain in the Old Testament. In the Proverbs there is a passage which speaks of Wisdom, but as you read the passage you realise it is speaking of a person rather than a concept. This is the great difference between Hebrew thought and Greek, but we don’t have time to examine it now. Suddenly we hear Wisdom speaking; Jehovah possessed me from the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was anointed from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth ever was. (Pro 8:22-23 MKJV) We are evidently in the same atmosphere as Genesis 1 and John 1. Here someone who testifies that ‘before the earth was’, even in the very beginning He was already. Who was this who was ‘anointed from the beginning’? That is to say He was already established from the very beginning to be the crown-prince. He is, using the phrase as a title and not a biological term, creation’s firstborn one. (Col 1:15)This amazing passage in Proverbs continues Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, (Pro 8:30 NASB) It was not only the Word who eternally ‘faced’ the Father but the Father eternally delighted in the one who was beside him. How long is an eternal day? This passage struggling to convey the wonders in ordinary language speaks of time before time, and of the time before days it says Wisdom was His daily delight. It is a wonderful picture of intimate fellowship between Father and Son through endless ‘days’ in a relationship that never grew jaded and in which there was perfect fulfilment. The delight was renewed ‘daily’. This is not just a passive delight but the constant bubbling of joy; Rejoicing always before Him. Did you think heaven was filled with sober-faced angels? And all this in such a few words… the Word was with God. A next verse has a poignant addition; Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men. (Pro 8:31 NASB) Even before our race was created God delighted in the prospect. It is only picture but it is wonderful one. Before the beginning, or ever the earth was God loved mankind… you included.Being eternal God knows the end from the beginning and mankind’s future was no surprise to Him. He knew what would happen in Eden. He knew what would happen in Gethsemane and at Calvary. In all His delights there was the knowledge of what it would cost to retrieve the race from its rebellion. His ‘delight’ in the sons of men would necessitate the loss of His ‘daily delight’. The most terrible moment in all history is His delight bore the sins of the world and was cut off. A psalm gives an insight into the real passion of Calvary; They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth... (Psa 22:18-21 KJV)

and the Word was GodJohn’s sentence continues and the Word was God. Some religious groups, following the simple order of the original words have retranslated this phrase as and a god was the Word, but the order of Greek words has special significance quite different to the English order. This part will become a little technical but follow it as you are able and be sure to read the last paragraph of this section.In English the order of the words determines the meaning. e.g. 'the dog bit the boy' can only mean one thing. However in Biblical Greek the meaning is usually determined by the 'case endings' of the words. In the above example the ending of the word 'dog' would show the this was the subject of the sentence, and the ending of the word 'boy' would show that this was the object of the sentence. Consequently, in Biblical Greek the word order might be 'the boy bit the dog' but the case endings of the nouns would make it crystal clear that it was the dog that did the biting. The order of the words in Biblical Greek is not primarily to convey meaning but emphasis. So e.g. in our illustration if the full story was 'a boy and a girl were playing with a dog; the boy bit the dog'. If the case ending showed that 'the dog' was the subject then this would have the effect of saying "both were playing with the dog, but the dog bit the boy".??However in a sentence like 'god was the word' something else gives us the meaning. In these "equation" statements e.g. "the dog is an animal" the same case ending would be used for both; the nominative. This would make it impossible to know who bit whom, but the Greeks had a way around that too. The subject noun would be given the definite article 'the'. Now the word order of the sentence can be used to give the required emphasis but we can still identify the subject. The Greek for John 1:1 is "and god was the word". This is an "equation sentence" so how can we know which is the subject? Easy, the subject has the definite article. So why not write "the word was God"? Simply because the writer wants to emphasize something else. It is a way of saying "what God was, the Word was". Everything that God was, the Word was. The lack of the definite article stops us from confusing the identify and person of 'the Word'(Jesus) with the identity and person of 'God' (the Father). The word order tells us that the Word has all the divine attributes of the Father; the word order tells us that the 'the Word' is not 'the Father'. Martin Luther once wrote that the lack of the definite article disproves Sabellianism and the word order disproves Arianism. Here's a little more Bible algebra. If it had said"and the Word was the God"\t-> \tSabellianism (Jesus-Only/Oneness)"and the Word was a god"\t\t-> \tArianism, hierarchical trinitarians (and JWs etc)"and god was the Word"\t\t-> \torthodox trinitarian.So to have used the Greek word order ‘the word was the God’ would have said something quite different. It would have said that there was no difference between the Word and God which is an error still taught by some religious groups. To say the Word was a god would have indicated that the Word was less a ‘god’ than God was. To say, as the Greek order does, says exactly what John wanted to say. There is no confusion of identities, no setting of one above another; and yet perfect union. And to eliminate any possible of an ordered hierarchy we have the final statement. The same was in the beginning with God.In these two sentences we have distinct identity, eternal fellowship, perfect union. As the old creeds used to say One God in Three Persons – Trinity.

All things came into being through HimDo you recall that the Proverbs spoke of someone who was ‘beside Him as a master craftsman’? We are now hearing the same thing in John’s account. Up until now all the only verb that has been used in the John’s sentences is the verb ‘to be’ or ‘to exist’, and the only tense he has used has been the ‘imperfect’. The continuous, in the past, tense. Now he switches verb and tense and we meet the words ‘were made’. This is the first event on John’s time line. The revelations of the first two sentences were not events but unchanging states.Genesis simply says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth but He did so through the agency of the Word and God said… and meanwhile everything came into being as the Spirit of God brooded upon the face of the waters. In fact, the creation is specifically attributed, in the scriptures, to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and without further explanation to the Triune God. John is very specific. It was the unique glory of the Word that brought all things into being. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (Joh 1:3 NASB) This version is trying to hold onto the idea of becoming, and rightly so. Literally ‘all things became’ through Him. It is a contrast with the words used in the earlier sentences. The Word did not ‘become’ in those sentences; the Word was. That is eternal existence, but the creation has not existed eternally; at a point in time it ‘became’ and at another point in time it will cease to ‘be’.and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into beingThe way that John seems to say the same things using different words almost seems pedantic, but John is putting clear space between the creation and the creator. It is vital to what will follow to understand that the Word is not a created being, but eternally co-existing with the Father. The gap between one created being and another can be very great. The gap between angels and men is very great, but the gap between Creator and creature is infinite.All created things had a beginning and will have an end, of one kind or another. The Creator already ‘was’ right at the beginning.Theologians sometimes speak of ‘createo ex nihilo’ meaning creation out of nothing, but in strict terms the creation did not come out of nothing; it came out of God. He is the source of all that ever existed or ever will exist. Paul describes Christ in a wonderful passage in his letter to the Colossians saying He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Col 1:15-17 NASB) Four times in these few sentences Paul refers to ‘all things’; he want to be sure you get the point. Christ is not part of the creation; He is its Creator. It is the same point John is making.

in Him was lifeI don’t think John ever recovered from this discovery. His first letter is a bubbling stream of this realisation. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) (1Jo 1:1-2 KJV) From time to time we may meet someone who is a powerful expression of the grace of God. We might even say that they ‘have life’ or we may describe the inexhaustible energy of a child and say ‘he really has some life in him’. It is important to understand that this is not what John is saying here. He does not say that the Word had life ‘in Him’ but that ‘in Him’ was life. He did not have life; He was life. Life was in Him. Neither is John talking about a superabundance of energy or the sparkling of character. The Life that John had witnessed and attempts to communicate in his letter is ‘that eternal life’.When we use the phrase ‘eternal life’ we are often thinking about its length. We think of Life which is ‘everlasting’; that’s just another English word for the same Greek original. But the essence of Eternal Life is not that it is greater in quantity but in quality. This is the life of eternity and the Word did not ‘have it’, but this life ‘was’ because it is in Him. The life does not sustain Him; He sustains the life.This was not a passing glimpse that John records but Life which was thoroughly scrutinized; it was heard, seen, examined, handled. This was the genuine article. John knew that in touching Christ they had touched God. Can you hear the abiding excitement in his words…and we have seen it! I repeat, I don’t think John ever recovered from this discovery.and the Life was the Light of menThe Word reveals the thought, and the eternal Word reveals God; he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9) This is John’s reason for beginning his record in the way he does. He will move on shortly to the witness of John but he begins by introducing a greater witness. All that men have ever truly known about God has come through the Word. His unique role in revealed history is to be related to God with man in mind and to be related to man with God in mind.Proverbs had described his ‘delight in the sons of men’; literally the ‘sons of Adam’. Do we have any idea how much God has loved the human race? It was so from before the beginning and has continued in spite of Adam’s defection. This is the measure of that love that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son… (Joh 3:16a KJV) The price He was willing to pay to reconcile the rebel.John is still using those ‘timeless’ imperfect tenses. In Him was life, always. And the light was the light of men, always. Wherever there is a revelation of truth to men and women, in whatever culture or era, it has always been because of the Life being Light to men. So far, whenever John has spoken of Christ he uses the ‘timeless’ imperfect tense.It is fascinating that Proverbs also describes Wisdom as a ‘tree of life’. He always was the only source of life and light.

and the Light shines in the darknessJohn now switches tenses from the ‘imperfect’ to the ‘present’. John sometimes uses these present tenses in his vivid narratives. They give an immediate sense to the story, but they can also have other implications. John is not just thinking about the event of the incarnation, but of the continuing process right up to the present moment; the Light is still shining in the darkness.John will move on shortly to speak of the witness of John Baptist, but at this stage he has in mind the continuing witness of the Light. John was a lamp; "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. (Joh 5:35-36 NASB) The lamp was extinguished but the light shines on. There is nowhere so dark that the Light is not still shining there. In that very darkness the Light still shines.and the darkness has not overcome it. This is the way the ESV and a few other versions translates this verse. The KJV has ‘the darkness comprehended it not’. The word can mean ‘apprehend’ but also in the way a criminal might be apprehended. The word was one used of a cat pinning down a mouse. The impression is that the ‘darkness’ attempted to hold down the light, but could not. This impression is carried through again in John’s changing tenses. ‘The Light is still shining in the darkness and the darkness did not extinguish it’.Christ constantly spoke of His death as ‘my hour’ but at the moment of his arrest he said; When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (Luk 22:53 KJV) There was a moment in the history of the Light when darkness was given its opportunity to do its worst. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (Mat 27:45 KJV)Although three hours passed this is, in truth, an ‘eternal moment’ followed later by resurrection.Love's redeeming work is done, Alleluia!Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!Lo! our Sun's eclipse is over, Alleluia!Lo! He sets in blood no more, Alleluia! It always ‘was’; we have discovered another of these ‘imperfect tenses’.Christ was always to have been the source of man’s knowledge of God. It is very specific, the way in which John uses ‘timeless’ expressions to describe the Word but ‘event’ expressions to describe everything else.That was the true LightAgain, John has reverted to his long list of imperfect tenses. He was the true Light; always; He was the Light, the true. This is the first use of one of John’s favourite words; true. It means more than factually accurate. Christ is the genuine Light, by implication, every other ‘light’ is not the ‘genuine’ article. Later John will speak of the True Bread, the True Vine, the True God. Religion has always been full of imitations but Christ’s provenance is clear. He has God’s hall-mark; …for him hath God the Father sealed. (Joh 6:27 KJV)which lighteth every man, coming into the world. Again John switches the tenses. This is not saying that at the moment of everyman’s entry into the world he is illuminated, but that every man is illuminated by the Light that is coming into the world. There is no man or woman who will not, in some measure, be illuminated by that Light which came into the world. The Light, who always was, is coming into the world. These are amazing statements which familiarity can easily rob us of. The Word, who is the unchanging God is ‘moving’, coming into the world. The Creator has constantly ‘entered’ His creation by the Light, just as the sun’s rays have penetrated into our world, but John is moving towards his goal here. He is about to make a carefully prepared statement of breathtaking audacity; a statement that would be an offence to Greek and Hebrew philosophy alike, but he prepares his ground first...

He was in the world, and the world was made by Him. The Word entered his creation. Emmanuel, God with us; God no longer ‘afar off’ but condescending to enter his own creation. The Pantheist believes that God has always been part of the creation but the biblical teaching of creation is that God created the world ‘outside of Himself’ although it is ‘in Him’. There is a absolute difference between God and His creation, just as there is between a man and the thing he holds in his hand. God entered his creation and even at this point John has not made his ultimate statement.And the Word was made fleshNow we have the astonishing revelation. The Word who caused all things to come into being has not only entered our world, He has become part of it. John, by the Spirit, has studiously avoided using ‘event’ tenses for the Word. Each time he has spoken he has said, in one way or another, the Word was… always was. Now the eternal acquires a time line; the Word became flesh.Imagine eternity. It is impossible of course, but we may get glimpses of it. Imagine a sheet of white paper that stretches endlessly in all directions; this is our symbol of eternity. Now imagine a short line drawn onto the paper; this is our symbol of time. Unlike the paper itself it has a beginning and an end. In comparison to the paper it is infinitesimal, but if we ‘zoom’ in we can see its dimensions. As human beings we are intensely conscious of this tiny mark on the endless paper, and we match our own experiences against its dimension but eternity is not part of time, although it can touch time at every point on the line simultaneously. God only is inherently eternal; …the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:15-16 KJV)The eternal became temporal; eternity stepped into time. The Word became part of the time-line as a member of the human race. The poets have tried their best but the concept is beyond human comprehension, as Charles Wesley wrote;God contracted to a spanIncomprehensibly made manThe Word came into being as flesh. He who had no beginning, began. Flesh here does not only mean the body but whole human-ness. This is not God pretending to be man, or God dressed as man, but God become man. He identified Himself totally with our race; he took our body, our mental capacity, our emotions, our hungers, our creatureliness. As all creation is continually dependent upon God so He too became dependent.This was no gesture but an absolute necessity. God was about to make possible a ‘so great a salvation’ that would restore men and women to God’s original purpose, but the agent and sustainer of that salvation had to be a genuine member of the human race. His life and death, resurrection and ascension, would result in a new priesthood but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; (Heb 7:24-26 NASB)Before this could be accomplished it would be necessary for an even more complete identification with the human race. Adam was created in childlike innocence, but his rebellion brought a terrible contagion into our race. At the very moment of Adam’s disobedience that contagion swept through the whole race. This congenital condition has had its effect upon every descendent of Adam, with one single exception. Christ was born, not only innocent, but Holy. The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God… (Luk 1:35 NASB)That Holy Life was lived out in public. John, and others, witnessed it in all its unique glory; … and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (Joh 1:14 NASB)

And dwelt among usIt is at this point that John introduces another wonderful concept. Generations of Bible readers have grown up with these wonderful words, but John’s original there hides a truth hidden from the English versions. There are several Greek words that John might have used to express the fact that the Word had made His home with the human race, but John’s choice is rich with suggestion. He uses a word that means ‘and he pitched his tent among us’. For many this phrase will awaken memories of the boy scouts or family camping holidays but for people like John it would awaken other memories.When God brought His people out of Egypt He gathered them to Sinai and entered into a unique agreement with them, called a Covenant. Three times the people of Israel gave their enthusiastic assent to the conditions. Animals were sacrificed and blood was sprinkled to join the people to an altar and to God. Moses ascended the Mount once more to receive the Law written in stone. While in the Mount, God instructed Moses to take an offering from the people. It was to comprise an amazing assortment of materials; precious metals, precious stones, wood, fabrics, and perfumes. The project would take a whole year while they camped at the base of Sinai. It would require many unique skills and much special empowering to complete. And the project? Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it. (Exo 25:8-9 NASB) God was going to ‘pitch His tent’ among the tents of Israel.This dwelling place of God was to be a tent. It would be, in effect, a mobile palace. God would reign upon a golden throne in the midst of his ‘tribe’. The construction was much like a modern frame-tent to be set within a a courtyard made of 6 foot linen screens. From the outside it would not look very spectacular; God’s glory would be concealed from the casual viewer. From the inside, however, it would be bright with the glow of gold; God’s glory would be revealed to those who had access to the inner quarters. This is not the place to go into greater detail, but God’s tent was an amazing place.Concerning this dwelling place, and in particular the Throne room, God promised Moses; And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. (Exo 25:22 ASV) In this tent where the glory of God was concealed and revealed, God would keep company with Moses. It would be the place of meeting and communion. It would be God’s house; His own personal dwelling place, uniquely. Perhaps we begin to see why John, always so prompt to underline the significance of things, says the incarnation was God tabernacling with men. Will God meet people just anywhere? In one sense, yes, but in another no. This, said the Father on one occasion, is my beloved Son, hear him. Jesus Christ is not one of many ways to God, nor one of many revelations. God will meet men here, but does not promise to meet them anywhere else. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh 14:6 KJV) Not, we must notice, a way, a truth or a life, but the genuine article which is found nowhere else. The was symbolized in the Tabernacle of old; this was the only way to God.God’s word stands true. He will still meet us here, in the person of His Son, and will talk to us. Communications have been restored. In He who is both God and man, God has bridged the gap opened up by sin. If these words should be read by those who find this concept strange please let me encourage you to put it to the test. Come to Christ, just as you are, without any attempt to improve your image. Read John’s story again and as Christ becomes real to you, talk to Him. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Joh 20:30-31 KJV)But the Tabernacle does not end its symbolism just in the God-man as the place where men can approach God; there is more and of a darker mood. The Throne was inaccessible to ancient Israel except on one day of the year, and then only to their representative, the High Priest. This day they called the Day of Atonement and in Leviticus 16 God gave them precise details of how the operation was to be carried out. At other times access into the Throne room was punishable by instant death, but one this one day the High Priest could enter and survive.First the High Priest had to undergo ceremonial cleansing and then two goats were to be taken to represent the people. The truths captured in this ceremony speak of the penalty of sin in death. One of the goats was sacrificed and its blood sprinkled on the Throne by the High Priest. God had promised to accept this sacrifice’s death as a substitute for the death of the sinners whose tents surrounded His. This was no mere ceremonial; others had stepped into the Throne room and had died for it. If this sacrifice proved unacceptable to God the High Priest would never have survived the experience.Next the second goat comes into our picture. In the symbolism of these things this is really one goat in two aspects; this is the goat who dies as the penal substitute and that carries away the sins of the people. This goat had been chosen to be the goat that escapes, or the scapegoat. We still use this language now although most who use it have no idea where it came from. The High Priest placed both hands on the head of the ‘scape goat’ and ‘confessed’ all the sins of Israel over the goat, and by this action… Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a man that is in readiness into the wilderness: (Lev 16:21 ASV) all the sins were transferred onto the goat that was then released into the wilderness. The original instructions continue; and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a solitary land: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Lev 16:22 ASV)In this Tabernacle, where God would meet men, one would die in the place of others and one would carry away in his body the sins of the people. This would be the Word’s ultimate identification with the race He had joined. Peter writes Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1Pe 2:24 KJV)This is ultimate purpose for which the Word became flesh and pitched his tent among us now becomes crystal clear. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1Pe 3:18 KJV)

Let earth and heaven combine,Angels and men agree,To praise in songs divineThe incarnate Deity,Our God contracted to a span,Incomprehensibly made Man.He laid His glory by,He wrapped Him in our clay;Unmarked by human eye,The latent Godhead lay;Infant of days He here became,And bore the mild Immanuel’s Name.Unsearchable the loveThat has the Saviour brought;The grace is far aboveOf men or angels’ thought:Suffice for us that God, we know,Our God, is manifest below.He deigns in flesh to appear,Widest extremes to join;To bring our vileness near,And make us all divine:And we the life of God shall know,For God is manifest below.Made perfect first in love,And sanctified by grace,We shall from earth remove,And see His glorious face:His love shall then be fully showed,And man shall all be lost in God.Charles Wesley.

Dear Ron,I haven't read this yet, although I am very excited. I just wanted to say before I begin...Thank you. Blake

Dear Philologos,This raises some questions in response, and I am curious to hear your answers.1) To whom should we pray, the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit? Does it matter? 2) To whom should we worship? Does it matter?3) What is meant by saying God is three persons in one? How are they seperate? How are they one?4) Jesus is God. Is this an accurate statement? What is the difference between this statement and Modalism? How does this differ from Sebellianism?5) Some claim: "Within the Godhead there is subordination." What is your reply to this? What does this mean?Thanks,Blake

Philologos,From the paragraph -- That was the true Light,Again, John has reverted to his long list of imperfect tenses. He was the true Light; always; He was the Light, the true. This is the first use of one of John’s favourite words; true. It means more than factually accurate. Christ is the genuine Light, by implication, every other ‘light’ is not the ‘genuine’ article. Later John will speak of the True Bread, the True Vine, the True God. Religion has always been full of imitations but Christ’s provenance is clear. He has God’s hall-mark; …for him hath God the Father sealed. (Joh 6:27 KJV)I have been blessed by your post, and am looking forward to more on; Johns writting of The Bread, the True Vine, and the True God.Christ is the genuine Light, by implication, every other ‘light’ is not the ‘genuine’ article. One is not born with this "light", but is this "light" made available to everyone who is born again and who desires to be transformed into the image of Christ?

4) Jesus is God. Is this an accurate statement? What is the difference between this statement and Modalism? How does this differ from Sebellianism?Hi blakeperhaps we can take these one at a time. The earlier ones I think will need no specific answers if we can satisfactorily answer the others. I am going to take it slowly so that others can join in.I'm going to try to answer this question briefly so that we don't drag too many 'red herrings' into the discussion. The struggles of the 3rd century were in trying to find the right way of expressing the unity of God and the deity of Christ. Modalism teaches that the three persons within the godhead are 'modes' in which God has manifested Himself:Historically it was also called 'Patripassionism' because it taught that the Father Himself had become incarnate in Christ and there fore also suffered with Him.It was called Sabellianism after its chief exponent. In our day it is often called 'Oneness' or 'Jesus Only' and is held by at least one major penecostal denomination. So modalism=patripassionism=sabellianism=Jesus Only. Your simple equation 'Jesus is God' is an accurate statement but we would need to add more statements to exclude 'modalism' from this. The most immediate problem with modalism, of course, is the conversations between the Father and the Son, and the promise of the Son to send the Spirit. At one level it is an attempt to maintain the full divinity of the Son but it produces the confusion expressed by an early opponent when he said they had "driven out the Paraclete and crucified the Father".Your statement 'Jesus is God' would be accepted by modalists but they would not accept the idea that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AT THE SAME TIME. They are really saying that God is the Father, OR the Son, OR the Holy Spirit but is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit in communion. In this view there could be no 'communion'. The original proponents viewed the revelation of God almost as a 'one-man play' with God playing three characters; there could never be two characters on stage at the same time because there was only one 'in the cast'.Sabellius regarded the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as simply designations of three different phases under which the one divine 'essence' manifested itself.OK? digest that and we'll move on to the 'subordination' question. ;-)

I am going to take it slowly so that others can join in.Your statement 'Jesus is God' would be accepted by modalists but they would not accept the idea that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AT THE SAME TIME. They are really saying that God is the Father, OR the Son, OR the Holy Spirit but is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit in communion. In this view there could be no 'communion'. The original proponents viewed the revelation of God almost as a 'one-man play' with God playing three characters; there could never be two characters on stage at the same time because there was only one 'in the cast'.A common way that Oneness Pentecostals express this is that God the Father became God the Son, became God the Holy Spirit. Hence, they will use doctrinal language such as, "God exists as a trinity in three manifestations". Notice the word 'manifestation' in place of 'person.' It is important I think also to understand how God revealed Himself in the Hebrew Shema. This is the passage where God is declared to be 'One.' Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Deut 6:4) Shmai Yisrael Adonai Eloheynu Adonai Echad. Hear O’ Israel the Lord your God is ONE.The Hebrew language has two words that can be translated "ONE": echad and yachid. Where as yachid (yah-keed) refers to the 'number one' (i.e., absolute unity), echad (ek-kawd) refers to a 'composite' or 'plural unity'. An example of this is in the book of Genesis chapter 2, verse 24, where it says that a couple joined together in marriage shall become 'one' flesh. Since the Shema uses the word echad, not yachid, it is reasonable to say that God's essence or nature is that of a plural unity. Understanding this word helps us apprehend that when we are speaking of God we are talking about one 'what' and three 'who's'. this is not three manifestations of the same person; but three persons as the plural unity of the One True God.

This thread is awesome. I thank God for the care that is put into the detail and explanations. I do have some questions, but I don't want to take away from the general thread.God bless you Brothers.

I found my answer,John is still using those ‘timeless’ imperfect tenses. In Him was life, always. And the light was the light of men, always. Wherever there is a revelation of truth to men and women, in whatever culture or era, it has always been because of the Life being Light to men. So far, whenever John has spoken of Christ he uses the ‘timeless’ imperfect tense.It is fascinating that Proverbs also describes Wisdom as a ‘tree of life’. He always was the only source of life and light.

The Hebrew language has two words that can be translated "ONE": echad and yachid. Where as yachid (yah-keed) refers to the 'number one' (i.e., absolute unity), echad (ek-kawd) refers to a 'composite' or 'plural unity'. HI robertThis is interesting. Do you have Strongs numbers? my pathetic Hebrew is not good enough for me to follow this through.

Following this thread has made all the time I spent reading others worth it. Some real rich stuff here. Thanks guys. God Bless :-)

Hi Ron,Sorry for the spelling. The actual Strongs spelling is:Yachiyd (Strongs 3173)This would be an absolute 'one'Echad' (Strongs 259)This word is translated many times throughout the Old Testament, but as you often say, words have histories. The first occurances are very telling:And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Genesis 1:5)Evening + Morning = 'echad' day. This is a plural unity.Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.(Genesis 2:4)This is also a plural unity. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (Genesis 11:6)Here echad' is used in both places translated 'one.' The first is a plural unity, the second seems to indicate simply 'one.' Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people. (Genesis 34:16)Only herein will the men consent unto us for to dwell with us, to be one people, if every male among us be circumcised, as they are circumcised.(Genesis 34:22)Similar to Adam and Eve becoming one (echad') flesh, this people would become a plural unity. Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD. (2 Chron 30:12)KJVThe whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore, Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women. (Ezra 2:64-65)Here echad' is translated as 'together'. There were 42,360+ persons referred to as one or echad'. I must clarify the fact that there are many different Hebrew words translated into our English word 'one'; however, the Messianic's argue that if God had meant to say 'absolute one' He had used Yachiyd and not echad'. Since the Jews place such an emphasis on the Shema it is also said that they changed the word from echad to yachyid. This is alleged because they knew that echad' could mean complex or plural unity. The arguments are too complex to post here, and the sites that have good arguments I would prefer not to link to, but I think the case is pretty compelling for Anti- Trinitarians to come to grips with 'echad'. The key words to start a search going: "Yachid vs. Echad" God Bless,-Robert

Some real rich stuff here. Ron, I believe your work here should be archived in the Text database. That is one of the best pieces I have read on the subject of John 1. :-)

Alot of these type of discussions I have to print out and sit with them beside my bibles and compare what's being said with the references in black and white. But its all good stuff.

Hi RobertThanks for the Strongs numbers. I have just searched for Yachiyd (Strongs 3173). The full search only produces the following references: Gen. 22:2,12,16; Judg. 11:34; Psa. 22:20; 25:16; 35:17; 68:6; Prov. 4:3; Jer. 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zech. 12:10 and it is interesting that in each of these the sense is 'a solitary one'.Echad' (Strongs 259), on the other hand, is used 963 times (according the my Bible software) so I have not checked all of those.Have you seen the Renn 'Expository Dictionary of Bible Words'. I have been using it for a few weeks and am impressed. It is much more comprehensive in the OT than Vines. It also has the advantage of coming with a full pdf file cd. He doesn't bring out the 'complex unity' of 'ehad' but some of the quotations make its use in that line pretty clear. I shall work my way though them to get the sense.Thanks again for your input.

Hi Ron,Have you seen the Renn 'Expository Dictionary of Bible Words'Actually I have not seen it. Where can I get it? Is it a module for esword? I have esword and use it occasionally. BTW the primary software I use is the full version PC Study Bible. I used to use Quickverse, but got used to PC version 3 and like it better. I have version 4, but don't care much for the format so I use the older version. I have some other information on Trinity that I was able to find from when I used to teach essential doctrines, but wanted to wait to see what direction the thread goes. God Bless,-Robert

Echad' (Strongs 259), on the other hand, is used 963 times (according the my Bible software) so I have not checked all of those.I shall work my way though them to get the sense.Well, I spent a considerable amount of time looking at them myself last night; it is quite an undertaking. I would love to hear your observations. :-)God Bless,-Robert

You can get Renn's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words from Amazon. I do think at this price it is excellent value for money.It's not a module to esword but the book comes with a CD with a few goodies on it, including a pdf of the whole book which makes searching for words or Strongs numbers very easy.

Dear RobertW,Your argument on "one" being plural falls apart in several applications of the word. In the scripture below, the "one" is refering to a single person. Genesis 4:19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. The word you are describing held many meanings depending on the usage (like many words do). It is not a word so specific to be used in the plural in every sense. If it was that case, then we would run into a huge problem. When we use the plural one, we are speaking of a collective or grouping. For instance, I would say "one" nation. When I say this, I am isolating a group. However, when we do use "one" in such a way, we do not refer to that group with the pronoun, "I." For instance, I wouldn't say, "I am one nation." We would say, "We are one nation." The same applies to a husband and wife. Pronouns such as "they" and "we" are used to describe them when together.Whenever God spoke about Himself, the pronoun "I" is used. echadDefinition 1. one (number) a.one (number) b.each, every c.a certain d.an (indefinite article) e.only, once, once for all f.one...another, the one...the other, one after g.another, one by one h.first e.eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal) According to this, "echad" is in reference to the number one, meaning that it can cover a broad range of uses. YachiydDefinition 1. only, only one, solitary, one a. only, unique, one b. solitary c. (TWOT) only begotten son subst 2. one The difference between the two words is not to say one is used in the plural, and one is not. Rather, the word "Yachiyd" is used to signify that there is only one in all. For instance, if I had only one son. And so, by using "echad" in duet 6:4, it is not saying that God is "plural" but rather that God is not the only God in the universe. God is one, but He's not the only one. Which makes sense, because there were many false gods. I guess what I am trying to say is that while it still supports the trinity, it is not a good argument for the trinity.This could just as easily be used to establish the "oneness" argument too. Thanks for sharing,Blake

Dear Philologos,Your statement 'Jesus is God' would be accepted by modalists but they would not accept the idea that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AT THE SAME TIME. They are really saying that God is the Father, OR the Son, OR the Holy Spirit but is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit in communion. In this view there could be no 'communion'.I definitely can see the error in that. I do believe in the "at the same" time theory. This debate has been good, as I didn't know that much about the trinity before this. I had accepted it openly without scrutiny. However, after spending much time reading materials on the trinity, I find it problematic. The Trinity states that God existed as three in one. There are three persons in the Godhead that make one God. These three can be said to be "one" because they are in perfect union. (Which more or less is the same as saying love that never fails.) Here is the problem I have. The trinity states that God is three persons. This idea of three persons establishes that God is in fact three individuals. It is like saying that God is not one person, but rather a collective, or group, or nation. I did some research into the theory of what a "person" is starting with the Catholic Encyclopedia. In all instances of study, the word "individual" stood out. I do understand that the trinity establishes that God is perfectly united. It is the same as a marriage between a husband and wife when a marriage is as it should be. The two are united as one. However, even in marriage, the wife must willingly submit unto her husband in love. This means that the Godhead also must have two parts that willingly submit unto one.I find the trinity a huge problem in this idea of being three persons. It opens the door for many different problems.Firstly, a person is an individual with distinct features and functions. Two people can come together in a perfect union, as demonstrated by marriage. However, each person in the marriage still has an isolated presense, will, and nature. We never refer to anyone in such union as "I". The problem I have is that three people are divisible. A person is distinct and can be isolated from the group, even if this person is dependent on the other. A person, in a more modern sense, has an established sense of self. Each person in the world has thier own autonomy, and are aware of thier difference from the rest of humanity.In my belief, God has one nature. God has one will. God is one. He cannot be divided or seperated in anyway. God is one person. He has one thought and one mind. He is one, so much so, that when He speaks, He says, "I." God does not say, "We."Lastly, whether God is three persons or not, God has chosen to reveal Himself to us through one person named Jesus Christ. Jesus said the only way to the Father is through me. More or less, Jesus is saying that the only way to God is through me.If we want to know God, we must turn to Jesus. If we wish to be saved, we must turn to Jesus. If we want anything, it must be through Jesus.This makes the trinity problematic in my mind. If there is three, then the other two have lost thier godliness to Jesus. For Jesus has made it clear that He is our judge, our redeemer, our life, our King, our Lord, our savior, our master, our everything. I am trying to understand and accept this possibility of the trinity. However, it has yet to make any sense to me.Thanks,Blake

Hi Beenblake,The word you are describing held many meanings depending on the usage (like many words do). It is not a word so specific to be used in the plural in every sense. It doesn't have to be. We are not trying to establish the word as being used in the plural sense every time, as it is used in many different ways. What is suggested in this argument is that if God wanted to reveal Himself as absolute 'one' or one in solitary he had used yachiyd and not echad'. The Rabbi's were privy to this problem and altered the Shema in certain Jewish bibles. Maimonides (Rambam) in the 12th century switched the word from echad to yachiyd in the Shema in response to the Christian view of God as a Trinity. This is similar to the argument that Elohiym also denotes God's plurality of majesty and not the plurality of His persons. They are long standing argumets and positions held between the Church and the Jews. They have their positions and we have ours. The word echad can mean "one" numerically and it can also mean a plural unity. In the case of the passage below there are both meanings in the passage: So the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; then He took one (echad) of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this cause shall a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one (echad') flesh. If it was that case, then we would run into a huge problem. When we use the plural one, we are speaking of a collective or grouping. For instance, I would say "one" nation. When I say this, I am isolating a group. However, when we do use "one" in such a way, we do not refer to that group with the pronoun, "I." For instance, I wouldn't say, "I am one nation." We would say, "We are one nation." The same applies to a husband and wife. Pronouns such as "they" and "we" are used to describe them when together.This is because as a nation we do not all possess a collective 'what'. We are individuals and make up a plural unity. Remember, we are not trying to divide God into three gods and then unify them, we are attampting to demonstrate that there are three who's and one what; and that 'what' is an indivisible substance that is eternally unified. The Shema cannot stand alone in the defense of Trinitarian doctrine. It is one of many points that can be made to butress the New Testament teaching. In summary, God did not reveal Himself as a solitary one, but as a plural one. You may not be able to prove the Trinity from the Shema; but it has to be pointed out that God chose to reveal Himself using a word (echad') that in its first occurances in scripture and later on meant a 'plural unity'. It is used some 900+ times in the Old Testament. He also used elohyim which is also plural. Hope that helps.God Bless,-Robert

In my belief, God has one nature. God has one will. God is one. He cannot be divided or seperated in anyway. God is one person. He has one thought and one mind. He is one, so much so, that when He speaks, He says, "I." God does not say, "We."Does God ever refer to Himself using plural pronouns? "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" (Genesis 1:26)"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." (Genesis 11:7)"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I [singular pronoun] send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" (Isaiah 6:8) Who is the Us and the Our in these passages?

Hi Beenblake,I am trying to understand and accept this possibility of the trinity. However, it has yet to make any sense to me.To help you along here I wondered if you could tell us if you believe in the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit? or maybe give us your current view of God to help understand where you are coming from.Thanks!-Robert

Hi BlakeOK, let's work our way through some of these things, but for this post let me quote a paragraph from Louis Berkhof's "The History of Christian Doctrine". (BTW this is a very helpful outline of the comings and goings of Christians trying to find a way of expressing 'the reason' for the hope which was in them. Here is the quote:The Church was in quest of a conception of Christ that would do justice to the following points:a. His true and proper deityb. His true and proper humanityc. The union of deity and humanity in the one persond. The proper distinction of deity from humanity in the one person.It felt that as long as these requirements were not met, or only partly met, its conception of Christ would be defective. All the Christological heresies that arose in the early Church originated in the failure to combine all these elements in the doctrinal statement of the truth. Some denied wholly or in part the true and proper deity of Christ, and others disputed wholly or in part His true and proper humanity. Some stressed the unity of the person at the expense of the two distinct natures, and others emphasized the distinct character of the two natures in Christ at the expense of the unity of the Person.Any older readers of Azimoth's "I, Robot" (not the film) will recognize a parallel here where the balance between the 'laws of robotics which had been built into the positronic brain' can change in different circumstances. The struggles of the saints during the early centuries were an illustration of this. Most 'theology' was reactive, ie it was a response to what had been said before. As we have often seen in our discussions on these pages that can very easily developm into a situation where positions solidify and the situation becomes one which Wesley describes as occasions which 'generate more heat than light'.In answer to the older question 'so what'? Here is another quotation, this time quoted by Berkhof, as an explanation of the role of Athanasius:His (Athanasius') soteriological (salvation-focussed) convicitions naturally gave birth to his theological (nature of God-focussed) tenets. His fundamental position was that union with God is necessary unto salvation, and that no creature, but only one who is Himself God can unite us with God. Hence, as Seeberg says, "Only if Christ is God, in the full sense of the word and without qualification, has God entered humanity, and only then have fellowship with God, the forgiveness of sins, the truth of God, and immortality been certainly brought to man." It is worth thinking through that little list at the end of the quotation. This is not just of academic interest but has a vital impact upon the basis of our relationship to 'God', the value of substitutionary atonement in God's blood (Acts 20:28), the fullness of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ (John 14:9), and consequently 'eternal life' is dependent upon Christ being "God, in the full sense of the word and without qualification".What we are really doing, in our pathetic way, is giving a definition of the word 'god'. Orthodox Christian belief says the "God" is the definition of the word 'god'. For us 'there is no other god'. If "God" (the person) is the definition of 'god' (the word) then only if Christ is "God, in the full sense of the word and without qualification" can Christ be said to have 'deity'. Here is an algebra formula for you.God - x = not-GodIf "the Son" < (is less than) "God" in any sense at all "the Son" is not (can't find the symbol! an equals with a line through it!) God.This is why Athanasius stuck so tenaciously to his position. we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three untreated nor three incomprehensible, but one untreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord...And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.I will try to answer some of your questions in the next post.

If I might parallel the Q&A between Ron and Blake, with some observations that demonstrate the reality of the 'persons' within the Deity. There have been a few in our conversations on Trinity in these forums that seem to lean towards a modalist view of God, which I commonly deal with due to the abundance of Oneness Pentecostals in our part of the country. In fact, we recently had a Oneness Pentecostal preacher in the pulpit and did not know it until he gave the benadiction. I suspected it while he was preaching, but was unsure until he gave his credentials during a ceremony at the end. We also had a 'praise and worship' group in that were Pentecostal and come to find out they were Oneness also. Oneness Pentecostals acquired or 'revived' this belief in the early 1900's that existed for a short time before 325 AD. The belief was spawned from a misunderstanding of water baptism and worked backwards from there. Error begets error.The belief in question is most frequently called 'modalism'. Oneness Pentecostals are known as "Jesus Name Only" proponents and baptise only in the name of Jesus. This is very problematic for several reasons. I propose here to demonstrate that in fact God does exist as three persons simultaneously. It is ironic that at the baptism of Christ we read:And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.(Matthew 3)The "voice from Heaven" is called by the Jews Bath-Kol and was considered authoritative until the Rabbi's userped all of God's authority in establishing Rabbinic Judaism. To those who heard the events at our Lord's baptism, this was God speaking. In our text we have the Holy Spirit, Christ and the Father, all at once. This was not Christ somehow performing actions of a ventriloquist; for those are generally understood to be demonic manifestations. This was God the Father speaking independently of Christ as the Spirit was descending. There is a second even at the mount of transfiguration that again demonstrated that God was speaking in a Bath Kol to Christ. It can be argued that it was these two Bath Kols that the Jews sought to snuff out as poofs for the Deity of Christ. The Words of God from Heaven authenticated who Christ was. The disciples were 'eyewitnesses of His Majesty.' Again, belaboring here, but Christ clearly and reasonably was not speaking to Himself.There are several others that we might use; but one not often cited is from the Revelation as Christ was dealing with the 7 churches.To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.(Revelation 3:21)This is clearly two distinct persons of the Godhead as God is still being revealed after the ascention as a Trinity. Christ says repeatedly in the opening chapters of the Revelation, "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." So we see then, that God is still being revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.The trouble folk have is coming to terms with how 3 could possible ever be one in substance. We cannot comprehend this, but we can apprehend it. Scripture teaches in Romans 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (Deity); so that they are without excuse:Being understood by the things that are made? Hmmm? How can this be in any sense that everyone could 'understand' a simple thing about God? This is the same Greek word used in Hebrews 11:3 when we read:Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.So when we are talking about God and His infinite power and majesty, we likewise must "by faith understand." This is more than logic alone. Logic will only take you so far. You need to understand by faith, or if I might so say, 'apprehend' how it "could be" and accept what we can't understand by faith as being too wonderful for us.Consider this from the creation:God made everything in the perceivable cosmos basically in the form of a Trinity. Everything exists as:Matter or Space or Time (this is a Trinity)Matter is not Space and Space is not Time and Time is not Matter, but together they form the cosmos. Matter exists as: Solid or Liquid or Gas (This is a Trinity)Solids are not Gasses and Gasses are not Liquids and Liquids are not Solids; but they are all Matter Space exists as Length X Width X Height (This is a Trinity)Length is not width and width is not length and length is not height, but they are all SpaceTime exists as: Past/Present/Future (This is also a Trinity)The past is not the present and the present is not the future and the future is not the past, but they are all TimeTo understand God as Three persons and one substance to the finite mind seems to be a contradiction until we have some clues to allow us to thing "outside the box". This is one of the reasons why I think a cursory look at Block Logic can be beneficial to believers. By analogy it was not until men thought 'outside the box' of Newtonian Physics that they realized that there were more to things than at first appears and on a Quantum level Newtonian physics laws are out the window. That is why I can type on this computer right now. Someone had to understand that the basic laws of how the physical universe behaves is different when you drop down to a quantum level. Particles don't revolve around a nucleus like planets around Sun; they behave like waves (sorry you have to unlearn your High School model of the atom now). LIKEWISE, we can only understand three demensions of Space and one demension of Time. We can do math in extra demensions, but our mind cannot comprehend it. Simply put, add an extra demension of space and time to the universe and all sorts of the impossible becomes possible. Now consider that God created demensions. This is how I can accept the whole of the revelation of God and not feel compelled to make them all jibe even when it may appear as a contradiction or unfathomable. I know I don't have enough mental power or information to work the equation. None of us do. We can only apprehend and take it by faith that God is as He has revealed Himself; one substance, three persons.

Dear Ron,I thank you for your detailed explanations. You clarified a number of things for me.The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.I have to confess that the algebraic analogy, which I have seen used by other theologians, in light of the quote, takes away from our Holy Triune God. I am also very disappointed that this whole explanation has no Scripture quotations at all. How are we “establishing and proving” God without His Word in the center of the discussion. A debate on the “incomprehensible” Godhead is questionable in the first place.Where I really struggle is with the words that Jesus spoke:Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.As a child I have a difficult time with some of the verb tenses, etc. As an adult I have no trouble at all following them. The Gospel was not meant to be that complicated according to Jesus.But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.I still maintain that nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to worship the Holy Spirit. This was not taught by Jesus, Paul, or anyone else. I DON’T SAY HERE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD, all I say is that we are NOT told to worship Him. We are also not told to pray to Him. This is where the whole debate and conclusions about our God in the Trinity debate go astray. Why can we not follow the example we are shown in heaven?Revelation 48 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.This worship is to:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.Revelation 56 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.In heaven there is only worship recorded to the ONE on the throne and to the LAMB.Furthermore, the Lamb has the seven Spirits of God on Him (see also Isaiah 11:1,2). The Lamb is worshipped, not the Seven Spirits of God, which is the Holy Spirit. It is very difficult for man to determine “how God has established the Godhead,” why do we even try? Consider the One Who admonishes the seven Churches; He starts as Jesus and concludes as the Spirit. Who are we to “define” this?This is what Jesus said the Samaritan woman:John 423 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.It doesn’t matter Who we worship when we worship the Father. The Father is the One Who knows where the worship should be distributed; it is not up to us to add to Jesus’ words.I appreciate very much to have had the opportunity to learn more about the Trinitarian view, but it certainly hasn’t convinced me, that I have to worship differently.

Quote:It doesn’t matter Who we worship when we worship the Father. The Father is the One Who knows where the worship should be distributed; it is not up to us to add to Jesus’ words.I beg to differ:It does matter who you Worship! According to the Ten Commandments. :-)

I stand corrected Bluinos.When I wrote this, I didn't consider the Ten Commandments. I do worship God and Him only. I will leave it to Him, that's what I meant.I maintain, that we are not told to worship the Holy Spirit in the Bible. God bless you Sir

Dear RobertW,I do thank you for all this as it is very helpful. What is suggested in this argument is that if God wanted to reveal Himself as absolute 'one' or one in solitary he had used yachiyd and not echad'. I don't see this argument as being solid. When God says, "I am one," using the word "echad" in the bible, I don't see it as Him saying, "I am one of many." Rather, I see it as Him saying, "I am complete." He is one in number. By this, God is saying He is good, for there is no conflict in Him. There could be multiple _________ of God and they are unified. However, whether there is or not, God is one. The scriptures you provided are convincing. Up to this point, I had always thought that when the bible was said "we" or "us," the bible was speaking of God and the angels. Even after hearing your arguments, I still lean toward this interpretation as it makes more sense to me. However, I can't really get into all of it on this message board as to why. I will pray more about what you have said. I do take every word to heart. Blake

Dear philologos,By everything you said, the trinity is an attempt as a "best fit" in order to cover all the important bases.I can definitely see this. It seems to me that accepting God as three persons in one provides a solution to the problem of how God could be the father, son, and Holy Spirit at one time. By this, it maintains that Christ could be God and man.However, I wonder if this is not just an attempt for humanity to conceptualize God within our ability of logic and reasoning???I would be fearful if it were such the case. I don't know. Thanks for showing this, though, as every bit helps. Blake

Dear RobertW and Philologos,The problem I have with the trinity is in the description of God as three "persons." I don't have any problems accepting the rest. I believe Jesus is God. I believe Jesus was man. I believe Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I believe that the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit all existed in the same moment at the same time. And I have no problem accepting all this without any further explanation. It seems to me that all things are possible with God, and He can indeed be two things at one time without boardering any absurdity. However, accepting that God is three persons is a difficult jump for me. I think it comes in this: what is a person? If you were to tell me that a person is nothing more than an identity, then we are good. I can accept the trinity. The problem I have is that a person is not just an identity, but rather an entity, by which it bears autonomy. In the world are many persons. Each is an individual. These individuals have the capability of being united in love, by submitting unto each other. However, this is not possible without God. Why? Because God is one, and only God is one. God is the only truly autonomous being in the universe. God is the only entity that doesn't need anything. He is complete. Everything else has been created by God and draws life from God. By saying God is three persons, you are saying that God is three individuals. You are saying God is three autonomous beings. I cannot accept this. I cannot also accept that all of God is encompassed in just three. God is not a person. God is all persons. Everything in the universe is defined by God. This means that everything gets it's definition from God. God is everything in one. You could say He is plural by this. However, He is always one, not because He is singular, but because He has one will. A "person" is a human thing. We are divided into persons each with personalities, and each with individual characteristics. God however encompasses all individuals and characteristics. God is not a "He." God is "He" and "She." He has both the characteristics of a male and female. I have to stop on this thought as I have to run. I will write more later. Thanks for sharing,Blake

God is the only truly autonomous being in the universe. God is the only entity that doesn't need anything. He is complete. Everything else has been created by God and draws life from God. By saying God is three persons, you are saying that God is three individuals. You are saying God is three autonomous beings. I cannot accept this.Sorry to jump in here but I just wanted to reply to this comment that is quoted above. You say that God is complete and yet He cannot be three persons. Consider that love and communication are a part of a complete God. But if there was no love or communication among the persons of the Trinity then God would have needed to create in order to love and communicate.I believe the Bible takes us back to the very beginning of everything and states that personality is intrinsic in what is; not in the pantheistic sense of the universe being the extension of the essence of God (or what is), but that a God who is personal on the high order of the Trinity created all else. Within the Trinity, before anything was created, there was real love and communication. For example...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.(John 17:24)And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)A personal God created man in his image, God is personal, man is personal. Love existed before the foundation of the world among the persons of the Trinity.In Christ,Ron

God is One, but, one is not God!What do you think when Jesus said on the cross, Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?" If one is God, the He would have been talking to him self and said, Myself, myself, why have I forsaken myself."don't have any problems accepting the rest. I believe Jesus is God. I believe Jesus was man. I believe Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I believe that the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit all existed in the same moment at the same time. And I have no problem accepting all this without any further explanation. It seems to me that all things are possible with God, and He can indeed be two things at one time without boardering any absurdityJesus was not the Holy Spirit, He has the Holy Spirit as we have a spirit. The problem I have with the trinity is in the description of God as three "persons."However, accepting that God is three persons is a difficult jump for me. I think it comes in this: what is a person?The Godhead is in three persons since He said, "let Us make man in Our image"A person is an individual. The Root word of individual is divide.I cannot also accept that all of God is encompassed in just three. God is not a person. God is all persons. Everything in the universe is defined by God. This means that everything gets it's definition from God. God is everything in one. You could say He is plural by this. However, He is always one, not because He is singular, but because He has one will.God is definatly a Persone in the flaesh, Jesus! He is not all persons as I am not Him nor is He me!True!! everything does gets it's definition from God.God is not everything in one so much that He is not a fly nor is a fly Him.Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: = shama` Yisra'el Yahovah 'elohiym(plural) 'echad(unity) YahovahYou could say Hear, O Israel: The LORD our Gods is one LORD:

Hi BeenBlake,Up to this point, I had always thought that when the bible was said "we" or "us," the bible was speaking of God and the angels. Even after hearing your arguments, I still lean toward this interpretation as it makes more sense to me. However, I can't really get into all of it on this message board as to why. Consider this passage:And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.( Genesis 1:27 YLT)This passage indicates that God created man in His image, not the image of angels. I would argue that God as a Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God created man as Spirit, Soul, and Body. Angels are ministering spirits only, but are known to have taken on a body. This is deep water, but I cannot see how God would have included angels in the 'Us' of the passages in question. God also went down to 'see' the wickedness of Sodom and appeared to Abraham as Three men in the tent door. I believe this to be an Old Testament revelation of God also, but I will not press the matter here.God Bless,-Robert

Hi Beenblake,I believe Jesus is the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry I was unable to truly follow what you meant in the post concerning 'persons', but I would like to look at the above sentence. Ron can treat the issue of persons quite well if he gets a chance. Here we read:"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).If God did not exist as three persons this had been a terribly difficult passage to unravel. First, observe that the Holy Spirit is referred to using the the pronoun 'he', this denotes personhood as we would say. The Holy Spirit is not 'it' but 'he'. Notice also that when He comes he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak. If Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were one and the same person we essentially have Christ speaking to Himself. This is the same Holy Spirit that came 'upon' Christ (i.e. "the Spirit of the Lord God is upon me..., because He hath anointed me..."). Therefor Christ and the Holy Spirit are indeed the same in substance, but they are not the same person. God BLess,-Robert

Dear Logic and RobertW,Logic said:Jesus was not the Holy Spirit, He has the Holy Spirit as we have a spirit.John 15:4-5 (KJ) "4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."Galatians 2:20 - (NLT)I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Who lives in us, the Holy Spirit or Jesus? Jesus is the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. Robert said:The Holy Spirit is not 'it' but 'he'.If the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit are one, then of course we would call the Holy Spirit "He." We say, "He" as a pronoun in reference to all three because they are one and the same.If the Holy Spirit was called "she," then you would have caught my attention. For there is no way Jesus, a "he" could be the same as the Holy Spirit, a "she." However, that is not the case. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a "he."This only provides me with further evidence that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. I can find no indication in the bible that the Holy Spirit is indeed an entirely seperate individual from Jesus. If they were, then I would have two Spirits living inside me. There is only one Spirit in me, it is the Spirit of God.Jesus is alive on earth today because He lives in every believer as the Holy Spirit. This is what I believe. You may believe differently. In love,Blake

Dear Robert,This passage indicates that God created man in His image, not the image of angels. I can see your point. We weren't created in the image of angels. Alas, the use of "us" in these scriptures do seem to provide a good argument for the trinity. However, I would not be so quick to jump to that conclusion. The use of "us" in reference to God has been used in only a few places. This makes me think there is another special purpose for this. If it were simply a matter of the trinity, then it would have been used through out scripture. I am not sure the answer to this riddle, however, I do believe there is a specific reason as to why God chose to use "us" in those particular scriptures and not in others. Thank you though for pointing that out to me about the angels. That does make sense to me. That is what these debates are for, though, testing.In love,Blake

Dear Robert,I'm sorry I was unable to truly follow what you meant in the post concerning 'persons',I am sorry, I was a little distracted by other things. I will try to explain this a little better. Philologos showed that the doctrine of the "Trinity" was established in order to syphon out error about God. The doctrine of the trinity came about because there were so many false ideas about God. This means the trinity is not based upon truth, rather it was developed to combat all the false ideas about Christ. As showed, there are four specifics things they were trying to establish in the trinity. The ultimate problem they were facing is this: Jesus is God and Jesus is man. How is it possible for Jesus to be God and man at the same time? This defies human logic and reasoning. Jesus cannot be both God and man at the same time. Jesus died and was resurrected. If Jesus is God, then He could not be a man with all of man's limitations such as death. And if Jesus did not really die, then our sin are not really forgiven. So, Jesus was a man. However, if Jesus was a man, then how could He be God? Jesus was resurrected? What man can resurrect Himself? And so, the solution to this little dilemma was to develop the trinity. If Jesus is seperate from the father and the father is seperate from Jesus, if they are seperate persons, then all the conditions in the above could be met. The doctrine of the trinity has seperated God into three persons. The question is, what is a person? A person is an individual. A person is autonomous. A person is a human. I am seperate from you. I have my own thoughts, my own will, my own actions, and my own life. Even though we are brothers in Christ, we are still seperate beings. You are not held accountable for what I do. You don't take credit for what I do. We share a union of love in Christ, however, we are still seperate.A husband and wife are better examples. When the two marry, they become one. They are united in love. However, even though they are one, they are still two persons. They are two individuals with distinct characteristics, traits, and functions. Even more important, they are autonomous beings. While they share everything, they are seperate. They are a collective or a group or a nation. They are divisible. When they have children, they become parents. They are not 2 parents in one parent. They are two persons in one parent-head. And often times, parents disagree. In my mind, God cannot be three autonomous beings. If you say this, then you are saying that there are three Gods. By saying "GodHead", you are saying that God is a council with three members. These three members are unified. Therefore, they make up a tri-unity. God the father is one God. God the son is one God. God the Holy Spirit is one God. Three Gods unified to make one. This is the trinity.This presents many theological problems in my mind. I cannot go through every one, as it would result in a book. Here is one.Let us say this is all true. There is a trinity with three seperate Gods who are united in love, hence, there are three persons. Of the three Gods, one was chosen to save humanity. One was chosen to be our judge. One was chosen to be our King. One was chosen to be revealed to us. Of the three Gods, Christ is the only one who lived as a man. Christ is our judge. Why would we appeal to anyone else? Christ is our Savior. Why would we call out to anyone else? Christ is our King. Why would we worship anyone else? Christ lived as a man. How can we know anyone else?Christ is the only one who is personal. He is the only one of the three that lived as a person. Of the three, Jesus Christ is the only person I know. I cannot accept that God is three persons because I know God. We have a relationship together. We talk and speak. God is very much one person. The trinity is man's attempt to make God logical and reasonable. Everything God does and creates is logical and reasonable. However, God Himself is love. And love, from my experience, doesn't always make sense. For instance: Why does God love me?This doesn't make sense. How can God love me like He does? Why does He love me?The only answer I can think of is: Because He is God. And yet, this answers so much. How could God die for us? Because He is God. How could God exist as Jesus and the Father at the same time? Because He is God. God did not reveal Himself to me as the trinity. He revealed Himself to me as Christ. The trinity is dogma established by man in an attempt to explain God. And so, I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the trinity.I have been praying heavily about this and I trust that Jesus will lead me. I am glad that we have had this debate as I have learned much. In love,Blake

I have to confess that the algebraic analogy, which I have seen used by other theologians, in light of the quote, takes away from our Holy Triune God. I am also very disappointed that this whole explanation has no Scripture quotations at all. How are we “establishing and proving” God without His Word in the center of the discussion. A debate on the “incomprehensible” Godhead is questionable in the first place.I think you are mistaking the purpose of the 'algebra'. It is not to describe God but to illustrate the workings of a logical thought process. Trinity does not 'describe' God. As regards not having the 'word of God' at the centre, I suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread. This whole thread was intended as an exposition of scripture.I still maintain that nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to worship the Holy Spirit. This was not taught by Jesus, Paul, or anyone else. I DON’T SAY HERE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD, all I say is that we are NOT told to worship Him. We are also not told to pray to Him. This is where the whole debate and conclusions about our God in the Trinity debate go astray. I think this shows signs of having become an obsession for you. Nowhere in the Bible are we told not to worship the Holy Spirit. We are told to worship God, and from a Trinitarian standpoint that authenticates worship to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.In heaven there is only worship recorded to the ONE on the throne and to the LAMB. So you are saying it is OK to worship the Son but not to worship the Spirit? The point is that if the Son and the Spirit are 'God' in a different way to the way that the Father is 'God'. If the Son and the Spirit have 'less' (to quote another posting) anything than the Father we have introduced an inequality to the Godhead. It is this that the old Christian thinkers were trying to address. The plain fact is that the name of Jehovah is the name of God, not the exclusive name of the Father, so all the injunctions of the Old Testament to 'worship' Jehovah-God and automatically injunctions to worship Father, Son and Spirit.

As showed, there are four specifics things they were trying to establish in the trinity. I will come back to this post but this statement is quite inaccurate. They were not trying to 'establish' any such thing in their doctrine of the Trinity but were trying, in their thinking, to 'protect' the revelation of the Godhead as they found it in scripture from various defective views. Trinitarian statements should be seen as defences of the revealed truth, not attempts to establish new ideas.

Where I really struggle is with the words that Jesus spoke:Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.As a child I have a difficult time with some of the verb tenses, etc. As an adult I have no trouble at all following them. The Gospel was not meant to be that complicated according to Jesus.You are confusing 'faith' with 'understanding'. In 'faith' we are to be children, in 'understanding' we are to be full grown adults.“Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.” (1Cor. 14:20, NKJV)

By everything you said, the trinity is an attempt as a "best fit" in order to cover all the important bases.All theology is 'best fit' but originally trinitarianism was an attempt to provide a 'reasoned' defence to the the simple statements that there is 'One God' and that it is revealed that the Father is God, and that the Son is God, and that the Spirit is God, without altering the original revelation that 'God is One'.

The problem I have with the trinity is in the description of God as three "persons." The real problem you have is with the definition of 'persons'; which definition are you using? that from an English dictionary or that from the history of theology?I cannot also accept that all of God is encompassed in just three. God is not a person. God is all persons. Now what is this intended to mean? That God is the composite of every individual being? That all individual beings are manifestations of God?The theological use of the word 'person' as a very specific theological history. The Father, the Word and the Spirit all reveal, individually, aspects of 'personhood'. To use the word 'person' of God is not to tie Him down to our human experience of 'personhood' but is fundamentally to say that God is 'at the least, a person'. He is not an influence or a power. He is person! He is conscious of Himself, as human persons are conscious of themselves. He is conscious of what is 'not' Himself. ie he distinguishes between 'Himself' and other 'selves' and other 'things'. He reveals 'person-al' activity; He can be loved, grieved. He reveals memory and power of individual choice. In all these aspects of God's nature we can get some idea of Him because, having been made in His image and likeness, we too experience these aspects of 'personhood'. That is not to say that His 'person-hood' is exactly the same as ours; He is God and we are men. Nevertheless in the way that we say God is a Father, we partly understand the word 'Father' due to our own experience of the word in a human context. It has been said that every positive statement about God has to have a corresponding negative statement. In other words we say 'God is a Father' BUT He is NOT the kind of Father that you have experienced in human terms. This has to do with the whole nature of the way in which words are used at different levels when used to describe God and used to describe created things.So if we are using the word 'person' of God we are really just asking a series of questions. Is He conscious of Himself as human persons are conscious of themselves?Is He conscious of what is not Himself as human persons are?Is He capable of memory and intention and choice, as human persons are capable of these things?Can He respond to other 'persons' in love, anger, grief, sorrow'?There are more questions that we could adduce, but I think we have enough to make the point. Is God in this sense a 'person'; not a human person, but a 'person' nevertheless? The answer to most Christians down the ages has been 'yes'.But the discussion continues... is 'the Father' 'conscious of Himself' in His relations with 'the Word'? Is the Word conscious of Himself in His relations with the Father? etc. If there is separate 'consciousness' then there is separate personhood. In His incarnation 'the Word' could say 'I and my Father are one' but also "my Father works and I work"; at times He used the pronoun 'we'. "I and my Father" and "we" show separate consciousness of being, key elements of 'personhood'. Any 'conversation' between the Father and the Word is either consciousness of separate personhood or schizophrenia; I can't think of any other options. What we have said of the Word could similarly be asked of the relationship between the Word and the Spirit, and we could collect similar quotations to make the point.For a comprehensive look at the issue of Trinity I would recommend The Holy Trinity It is a comprehensive site with lots of hyperlinks and anyone wanting to research the topic would do well to pay it a visit.

Who lives in us, the Holy Spirit or Jesus? It is only as a result of being 'strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man... that Christ dwells in the heart... by faith.“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,” (Eph. 3:16-17, KJVS)If you really do believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit you are into full blown 'modalism'.

And alas we have before us the danger of oversimplification of the revelation of God; there is simply no simple way of defining the God as we find revealed in scripture. If I might borrow a quote from Augustine: "For, in truth, as the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and that Holy Spirit who is also called the gift of God is neither the Father nor the Son, certainly they are three. And so it is said plurally, “I and my Father are one.” For He has not said, “is one,” as the Sabellians say; but, “are one.” Yet, when the question is asked, What three? human language labors altogether under great poverty of speech. The answer, however, is given, three “persons,” not that it might be [completely] spoken, but that it might not be left [wholly] unspoken. " As Ron has rightly pointed out, the doctrine of the Trinity was forged as a result of multiple heresies coming against the Church. The early Church went through a period or age of 'apologists' in which God raised up men to defend the Biblical Revelation against a host of false teachings. Modalism and Unitarianism are next of kin. At the end of the day we are left with an impersonal God who has manifested Himself three times, but has never truly walked among men or dwelt in their hearts by faith. This is the ultimate finality of modalist teaching taken to its logical conclusion. We have to be willing to allow the biblical revelation of God to stand in all of its parts without feeling compelled to fit it into some sort of construct that makes us compromise that revelation. In other words, we cannot force a square peg through a round hole unless we modify either the peg or the hole.

Ron you quoted me:I think this shows signs of having become an obsession for youYou are correct Sir; I am obsessed with worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth. I find it strange that you don’t confirm and acknowledge my direct Scripture quotes, but only address the apparent disagreement with the Trinitarian Definition. Ron, in response you said:We are told to worship God, and from a Trinitarian standpoint that authenticates worship to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.I want to humbly submit to you that the “Trinitarian standpoint” is not ordained by God but by man. For me, anything ordained or defined by man does not override God’s Word.Ron, we are told to test the spirits. This is not a suggestion, but in light of the large diversity of different Scripture interpretations having resulted in hundreds of different denominations and Christian non-denominational groups, this should be a MUST, if we are serious about worshipping the Father in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23,24).As I have publicly stated on this Forum before, the whole Trinitarian Debate is an unholy exercise taking away from the Majesty and Glory of our infinite wise and “as someone put it” incomprehensible God. We cannot now or ever achieve the ability to define our God, and any attempt certainly will leave us wanting and open us up to deception by Satan.It troubles me to no end that God in His Wisdom gave us a proof as to the truth and we march over it with OUR human definitions. It is a free gift of God given to every believer who is willing to submit to Him and nobody else. This gift is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. The Bible tells in a number of places how the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in believers. The Bible even tells us what the Holy Spirit does when He really lives in us: He will lead us into all truth.In two places the Bible quotes directly what it is that the Holy Spirit cries out: Abba! Father! Why do we have the Holy Spirit? We received the Holy Spirit as an answer to Jesus promise that He would BE WITH US EVEN TO THE END OF THE AGE. After all, Jesus lives in our hearts by His Spirit, the Holy Spirit that is.Ron, these two “absolutes” come from the Bible which tells us about an “absolute” God, Who has only ONE TRUTH, and that TRUTH is absolute. There is nothing we can add to God’s truth or take away from it. Therefore, if the Spirit in me bears witness to me and makes me cry our Abba! Father! I know for certain that it doesn’t come from the one who is transformed as an angel of light.Beenblake, I appreciate that you come to some of the conclusions you do. Just as an aside, I know all about JWs. I counciled as a Christian people suffering with demonic problems and taught on cults - including JWs - for more than 20 years.Just this morning I read from Acts 1: 1,21 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:He in verse 2, is Jesus and prior to that Jesus ascended to heaven he commanded His disciples through the Holy Spirit. Who was speaking? Was it Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Jesus spoke and the Holy Spirit gave Him the words, or was it Jesus Who instructed the Holy Spirit what to say through Him? Beenblake, it doesn’t matter. Jesus spoke, that’s all that matters.It is just as “confusing” when you read the accounts of the seven churches in the Book of Revelation. The seven churches are each addressed by Jesus and the addresses stop with the One Who calls Himself the Spirit. Yet, the same One is making the address. Jesus and the Holy Spirit here, just as in Acts 1:2 speak as One. When you read Isaiah 11:1,2, you see that the seven Spirits of God come upon the One who comes from the root of Jesse. This is Jesus, and the seven Spirits of God rest on Him. When you flip to the book of Revelation chapter 5, you will find that the Lamb has the seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God. This Beenblake is how the unity between The Father, Jesus, and every believer is achieved; it is through the Fellowship with the Holy Spirit. Therefore Paul writes in Ephesians 2: 6 that we – as true believers – have been raised up with Christ in the heavenlies, while in the body we are still on earth. When you read Paul’s prayer in Ephesians 1:15-18, you will note that Paul is asking the Father for some of the same Spirit(s) that are listed in Isaiah 11:2. Don’t be confused about this, but in the opening verses of the Book of Revelation it talks about the seven Spirits of God before His throne. These seven spirits of God are the Holy Spirit. All Jesus ever did is worship His Father, while He was filled with the Holy Spirit. If you want to test the spirits, the only real proof you will ever have, is that you too will want to pray to the Father, because this is what the Holy Spirit will do in a “Spirit-filled” believer, and it is about the only real test we have been given which lines up with Scripture.I describe much more of this on my website. Soon will I post an article in which I will give some examples of “false” religious spirits that operate in the Church today. There was a very good reason why Jesus asked the question: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8).

I DON’T SAY HERE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD, all I say is that we are NOT told to worship Him.Hans, this is very simple, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, then worship God.If you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, then we need to start another discussion regarding the deity of the Holy Spirit.Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God?

Hi Hans,All Jesus ever did is worship His Father, while He was filled with the Holy Spirit.Did Jesus ever accept worship?

Dear Nasher and Robert,The Holy Spirit is God, how could He come forth from God search the inner depths of God and not be God? Of course the Holy Spirit is God. And this is exactly the point, when we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit, but when we worship the Holy Spirit, of Whom Jesus stated: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you (John 16:14), we go beyond to what we are told to do, since:The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus. We are told to do homage to the Son, Psalm 2:11. The Hebrew implies kiss the Son.Yes we worship Jesus, and if we worship the Father and Jesus and tyhe Holy Spirit is worshiped too, that is what happens. The Bible doesn't specify this. What I do know is that the more people worship and focus on the Holy Spirit, instead of on the Father, very amazing, but to me, very scary things happen.

letuspray writes: You are correct Sir; I am obsessed with worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth. I find it strange that you don’t confirm and acknowledge my direct Scripture quotes, but only address the apparent disagreement with the Trinitarian Definition. You referred to Luke 18 which I answered, and to various texts in the Revelation that you chose to call an 'example'. The Revelation is a moving pageant which tells a story. If you try to follow it as an example you will find that the throne is only occupied by 'one' in Chapter 4 but that as a result of His 'overcoming' the Lamb shares the throne and worship in Chapter 5. It is not designed as an 'example' but as truth told in 'signs'. To try to defend your thesis from here only shows that you don't understand the nature or purpose of the book.That leaves John 4 in which the Son in his incarnation is continuing to direct worship to the Father. Your admission of 'obsession' is the real key to the way you are using these scriptures.

trinitarianism was an attempt to provide a 'reasoned' defence Exactly.In love, Blake

Hi Hans,Yes we worship Jesus, and if we worship the Father and Jesus and tyhe Holy Spirit is worshiped too, that is what happens. The Bible doesn't specify this. What I do know is that the more people worship and focus on the Holy Spirit, instead of on the Father, very amazing, but to me, very scary things happen.I think at issue here is the word 'worship'. When you consider the role that the Holy Spirit takes in leading our lives, the subservience is at a level unparalleled in the common understanding of the word 'worship' as it is generally used. We are also commanded and warned about 'grieving' and 'blaspheming' the Holy Spirit. These negative commands have the positive effect of generating 'worship' although we may have no such commandment "thou shalt worship the Holy Spirit." What happened when Ananias and Sapphira 'lied' to the Holy Ghost? They were told that they had not lied unto men, but unto God. This was an serious act of irreverence and death followed. Worship is more than something we 'say' with our mouths or posture in prayer; it is the very posture of our lives, and if that be an indicator, our lives are one continuous act of worship towards the Holy Spirit. In this regard I would argue that our obedience is our primary expression of worship to the Holy Spirit. Beyond that I have never heard of a person calling the Holy Spirit's name in worship, though I know of no place where it would be expressly forbidden. The focus, again, is on our obedience in being 'led' of the Spirit. God Bless,-Robert

Dear Philologos,Any 'conversation' between the Father and the Word is either consciousness of separate personhood or schizophrenia; I can't think of any other options. Have you ever had a conversation with your own word? Imagine if you spoke and your words stopped in mid-air, turned around, and spoke back to you. And yet, you say that if God is not three persons, He is schizophrenic? You are trying to comprehend God using logic and reason. My point is that God creates in logic and reason, but He is beyond comprehension. You are right, I have a problem with the word "person." It seperates God into three beings. I cannot accept this. There are not three Gods but one. I agree that God is a person, much like we are persons. However, God is not three persons, He is one person. He has one "personhood". There is not a seperate 'consciousness' in God, for if there were, then God would conflict. Jesus would think something seperate from the father, and those thoughts would conflict, thereby creating a conflict in God. This cannot be.And that is not modalism, for modalism claims that God showed Himself in three different modes. I don't believe Jesus is a different mode of God. I believe Jesus is the Word of God. They are inseperable. They are one and the same. If you worship Jesus, you are worshipping the father. If you see Jesus, you have seen the father. My word can be written. When it is written, it can exist longer than I can. It can exist apart from my presence. However, my word is not a seperate person from me. It does not have a seperate consciousness than me. It is my consciousness. It is the expression of my thoughts. My word cannot say or do anything that is different from me or my consciousness. Neither could Jesus do anything seperate or different from God. Have you ever acted in a play? Have you ever wrote a story to demonstrate something? Have you ever set an example to your children by acting it out first?Is it really schizophrenic to think that God came to earth as Jesus as a demonstration of what we shoud be? God came to earth for us, not for Himself. Do you honestly think Jesus was praying to the father for Himself? If Jesus is a seperate person from the father, and yet Jesus is God, then why would Jesus pray at all? Everything Jesus did was for our sake. Nothing Jesus did or said was for His own benefit or for the benefit of God. It was for our benefit and God's glory. A freind of mine said that He believed Jesus was an avatar of God. I don't agree with this either. Jesus is the true person of God, not just a mask or a mode. God came to earth to reveal His true person to us, so that we could know Him personally. This is the same person that lives in us, and rules over us. I will look over the website you have given me. However, I don't suspect it will change my mind. I don't like the doctrine of the trinity. I understand why it was developed, and what it was trying to accomplish. May God lead us all closer to Him.In love,Blake

And this is exactly the point, when we worship God, we worship the Holy Spirit, but when we worship the Holy Spirit, of Whom Jesus stated: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you (John 16:14), we go beyond to what we are told to do, since:Hans, so what you're saying is, it's ok to worship God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) together, but to worship the Holy Spirit separately is wrong? But worshiping the Father or the Son separately is ok?What I do know is that the more people worship and focus on the Holy Spirit, instead of on the Father, very amazing, but to me, very scary things happen.Are you saying that if a person worships the Holy Spirit that He will lead them astray in some way?

I agree that God is a person, much like we are persons. However, God is not three persons, He is one person. He has one "personhood". There is not a seperate 'consciousness' in God, for if there were, then God would conflict. Jesus would think something seperate from the father, and those thoughts would conflict, thereby creating a conflict in God. This cannot be.Conflict is caused by differing opinions, differing opinions are the result of either one party (or both parties) being wrong in the position that they take. In the godhead there is no such conflict of opinion, nor could there be. Please explain to me how this conversation works when there is no separate consciousness...“the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” (Psa. 2:7-8, KJVS)Who is Christ talking to in John 17?Have you ever had a conversation with your own word? Imagine if you spoke and your words stopped in mid-air, turned around, and spoke back to you."Have I ever had a conversation with my own word?" No I haven't. I have had a conversation with myself but never with my word. It is prayer and answered prayer that makes it crystal clear that Christ is not talking to Himself:“Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (Is. 53:12, KJVS)\t“Save Me from the lion’s mouth\tAnd from the horns of the wild oxen!\tYou have answered Me.” (Psa. 22:21, NKJV)“Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 11:41-42, KJVS)“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;” (Heb. 5:7, KJVS) What we have here is plainly communication which has both 'transmit' and 'receive' elements. How can this be if Father and Son do not have separate consciousness?My word can be written. When it is written, it can exist longer than I can. It can exist apart from my presence. However, my word is not a seperate person from me. It does not have a seperate consciousness than me. It is my consciousness. It is the expression of my thoughts. My word cannot say or do anything that is different from me or my consciousness. Neither could Jesus do anything seperate or different from God. Have you ever acted in a play? Have you ever wrote a story to demonstrate something? Have you ever set an example to your children by acting it out first? This is a perfect example of modalism. If you hold this and claim not to believe in modalism it can only be that you do not understand modalism. The whole point about 'modalism' is that 'one person' is being revealed in different ways at different times. And your 'play-analogy' is exactly the kind of reasoning the modalists have always employed.God came to earth to reveal His true person to us, so that we could know Him personally. When 'God came to earth' who was 'my Father which is in heaven'? “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 7:21, KJVS)My word can be written. When it is written, it can exist longer than I can. It can exist apart from my presence. However, my word is not a seperate person from me. It does not have a seperate consciousness than me. It is my consciousness. It is the expression of my thoughts. My word cannot say or do anything that is different from me or my consciousness. Neither could Jesus do anything seperate or different from God. You blame me for 'logic and reason'. This paragraph is a classic example of someone using neither. My 'word' does not have consciousness; not when it is spoken nor written. My word is a 'thing'; Christ as the Word was not a 'thing' but had consciousness. The 'reason' that your 'word' does not have 'separate consciousness' is that it has no consciousness at all!

I agree that God is a person, much like we are persons. However, God is not three persons, He is one person. He has one "personhood". Again, I have to ask you, if God is one person then how could there be love and communication before the foundation of the world as found in John 17:24 and Genesis 1:26? Answer these questions;1)Can there be love and communication with only one person? 2)Did God need to create in order to love and communicate? In Christ,Ron

Hi BeenBlake,However, I don't suspect it will change my mind. I don't like the doctrine of the trinity. I understand why it was developed, and what it was trying to accomplish. I should hope to encourage you to dig into how the doctrine of "Jesus name only" developed. It happens that during the Pentecostal revivals of the early 20th century R. McAlistern, Frank Ewart, G.T.Haywood, Glenn Cook became proponents of a new baptism formula 'discovered' by McAlister based on a complete misunderstanding of water baptism in the Book of Acts. This new formula essentially split the early pentecostal movement. Since the name of Jesus 'only' is found in Acts baptisms as opposed to "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" it was reasoned that in Christ must "dwell all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" and so from there 'Sabellianism' was revived with a fresh spin. This error could have been avoided by simply understanding that the use of Jesus' name in baptism in Acts was for the purpose of differentiating it from "John's Baptism." Today we cannot understand this, but in those days if you asked a person if they had been baptised they may have said 'yes' and yet still needed to be baptised in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which was Jesus' baptism- as He gave us the model in Matthew 28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. This command was given just a weeks before Pentecost. It does not reason that between Matthew 28 and Acts 2 that this should change. The distinction had to be made between John's Baptism of repentance and Baptism post Pentecost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19)

Dear Nasher,Hans, so what you're saying is, it's ok to worship God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) together, but to worship the Holy Spirit separately is wrong? But worshiping the Father or the Son separately is ok?May I ask you some questions? When Jesus spoke, did He speak as Jesus, did He quote the Holy Spirit or did He speak as the Holy Spirit?When Jesus praised and worshiped the Father, did He worship the Holy Spirit? When Jesus told us “in that day” to ask Him no longer any questions but to ask the Father in His name, did He mean the Holy Spirit?When you pray “in the Spirit,” do you pray led by the Spirit, or do you pray to the Holy Spirit?When you have received the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of His Son and – according to God’s Word - you cry out Abba! Father! what does this mean? Does it mean that you cry out Holy Spirit, or does this mean that you cry out Jesus, or this it mean that you cry out Holy Spirit, or all three of the Triune Godhead. Or just maybe, it means that you cry out Abba! Father! just as it is recorded in God’s Word.The Christians who attend the Toronto Blessing focus in their worship and prayer primarily on the Holy Spirit. According to the Trinitarian Doctrine, this is totally defendable. Yet, the manifestations that take place at the Toronto Blessing make some Christians very uncomfortable. Is the uneasy witness to the spirit of these Christians just a misunderstanding of the “power of God,” or is it the warning by the Holy Spirit that something is radically wrong?Here is my last question Nasher.How do we test the spirits that operate in an environment as the Toronto Blessing, when they primarily worship the Holy Spirit, One God of our Triune God?

Brother Greg, I stand corrected.I only attended the introductory service in Ottawa which was heavily focussed on the Holy Spirit. Christians I regularly meet who attend the meetings at TB, pray primarily to the Holy Spirit. I attended one meeting were we were led to ask the Holy Spirit to forgive us, because we had "ignored" Him so long.I have to confess that this was enough to keep me away from TB.

Dear RobertW,I am not of the "Jesus name only", I do not like it either. The Jesus only movement, as was established, denies that God could be Jesus and the father at the same time. I disagree with this. I also disagree with modalism, for it also divides God into modes. Thank you though for pointing this out to me,Blake

Dear Philologos,I don't have all the answers. However, my point is this: the trinity is a contradiction. Just because I cannot explain in finite terms the way in which God can exist both as a son and father in communication to each other, does not mean that they must in fact be seperate persons. What you are doing is taking an infinite and perfect God, and placing Him into your own finite mind of logic and reason. I am not so sure we should do that, for it immediately leads to error.I realize the Trinity has been accepted by the Church for many years. And as such, it has also been established that anyone who disagrees with it, is a heritic or unsaved. This is foolish talk for God does not send His Spirit to dwell in our logic and reasoning, rather, His Spirit dwells in our hearts. There are many Christians out there that don't believe in the Trinity. They know Christ in thier heart. And so, I am not as worried if everyone doesn't jump on the bandwagon with me and believe exactly what I believe. The truth lives in our hearts. And sometimes, we cannot always express the truth that lies in our heart accurately. I have been trying to explain how the trinity is a contradiction and searching for some evidence otherwise. However, I found none yet. Anyhow, let's begin this discourse at the beginning. The trinity is Catholic dogma, established by the Catholic Church. And so, it would only reason that if we should engage in a conversation as such, we would turn to the writings of Catholicism.The Athanasian Creed states, "Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance." There are two ways in which to read this: Either God is three persons who are three identities, or God is three persons in that He is three individuals. Either God has three faces, or He is three seperate beings.Obviously, the creed states, "nor dividing the substance." Why does it say this?According to the "The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI": Obviously there can be only one infinite being, only one God. If several were to exist, none of them would really be infinite, for, to have plurality of natures at all, each should have some perfection not possessed by the others. .....If the question, for example, be asked: Why may there not be several self-existing beings? The only satisfactory answer, as it seems to us, is this: Because a self-existent being as such is necessarily infinite, and there cannot be several infinities. This seems to make sense. In order for God to be God, a supreme and infinite being, He must be one God. However, the creed also states "Neither confounding the Persons." What does this mean? Well obviously, there in lies the debate. What is a person? Is a person merely a persona as defined by the Greeks, meaning God is a face wearing a mask? Or is a person an individual, a being with a seperate "self" and "consciousness"? The Catholic Encyclopedia established under the definition of a "person" that this debate arose and it was established that God was three individuals. According to the "The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI" on "Person": The classic definition is that given by Boethius in "De persona et duabus naturis", c. ii: Naturæ rationalis individua substantia (an individual substance of a rational nature).It goes on to tell about the debate that arose over the definition of "person", and how it was settled upon the fact that God is in fact three substances. Eventually in the West, it was recognized that the true equivalent of hypostasis was not substantia but subsistentia, and in the East that to understand prosopon in the sense of the Latin persona precluded the possibility of a Sabellian interpretation. By the First Council of Constantinople, therefore, it was recognized that the words hypostasis, prosopon, and persona were equally applicable to the three Divine realities.If we accept that God is three individuals, we come to a contradictory conclusion. God is of one substance. Therefore, God is of an individual substance. This means, he cannot be three individuals for that would be the equivalent of saying He is three substances. As established above, we cannot divide the substance. So how can God be three persons? Can you see this contradiction? In love,Blake

Hi BeenBlake,[quoteThe Jesus only movement, as was established, denies that God could be Jesus and the father at the same time. I disagree with this. I suppose I am unable to understand where you truly stand on this as you seem to have a unique view of these things. I think though, that you are certainly Unitarian, but may have some subtle differences from 'modalism', yet I am not convinced you are not actually in that category due to your acknowledgment of Jesus as God and the Father as God; but not seperate 'persons'. As I understand you, you believe that God the Father is the same as God the Son. Modalists generally believe God the Father became God the Son, etc. Oneness believe that in Christ dwelled all the Fullness of the Godhead bodily and just varied in manifestations. It seems you are not in agreement with this totally, but would prefer to say God merely has different names? That's my best summary of what you have said. Is that correct?

If we accept that God is three individuals, we come to a contradictory conclusion. God is of one substance. Therefore, God is of an individual substance. This means, he cannot be three individuals for that would be the equivalent of saying He is three substances. As established above, we cannot divide the substance. So how can God be three persons?The same way the space consists of L X W X H or Time is Past/Present/Future or matter is solid/liquid/gas.This Trinity of Trinities shows us how it is possible and yet not a contradiction.

What you are doing is taking an infinite and perfect God, and placing Him into your own finite mind of logic and reason. I am not so sure we should do that, for it immediately leads to error.This argument is a contradiction, for you are using logic and reason in describing your own understanding of the Godhead.I don't have all the answers. However, my point is this: the trinity is a contradiction.You should carefully consider what it takes for something to move from the realm of difficulty to the realm of contradiction. You have yourself admitted here that you don't have all the answers yet in the same breath you make a definite statement of contradiction?Please consider that the doctrine of the Trinity is not something that was merely invented to answer questions about God. To quote Francis Schaeffer..Every once in a while in my discussions someone asks me how I can believe in the Trinity. My answer is always the same. I would still be an agnostic if there were no Trinity, because there would be no answers. Without the high order of personal unity and diversity as given in the Trinity, there are no answers. The Persons of the Trinity communicated with each other and loved each other before the creation of the world. This is not only an answer to the acute philosophical need of unity in diversity, but of personal unity and diversity... We must appreciate that our Christian forefathers understood this very well in A.D. 325 when they stressed the three persons in the Trinity as the Bible had clearly set this forth. Let us notice that it is not that they invented the Trinity in order to give an answer to the philosophical questions which the Greeks had at that time understood. It is quite the contrary... The Christians realized that in the Trinity, as it had been taught in the Bible, they had an answer that no one else had. They did not invent the Trinity to meet the need; the Trinity was already there and it met the needs. Let us notice again that this is not the best answer; it is the only answer. Nobody else, no philosophy has ever given us an answer to unity and diversity. -from He Is There and He Is Not Silent by Francis A. SchaefferIn Christ,Ron

I don't have all the answers. However, my point is this: the trinity is a contradiction. ??Just because I cannot explain in finite terms the way in which God can exist both as a son and father in communication to each other, does not mean that they must in fact be seperate persons. What you are doing is taking an infinite and perfect God, and placing Him into your own finite mind of logic and reason. I am not so sure we should do that, for it immediately leads to error.But what you are doing is exactly what you accuse me of doing. The 'trinity' is a contradiction to your logic and your reason. The logic of your logic is quite contradictory to the logic of my logic, so where do we go from there?However, I found none yet. Anyhow, let's begin this discourse at the beginning. The trinity is Catholic dogma, established by the Catholic Church.No, it is not. No more that the canon of scripture is 'catholic dogma'. You just don't seem to understand that the councils did not create doctrine they sought to affirm the truth and disclaim error. The canon of scripture was 'endorsed' by councils NOT established by them; similarly the truth of One God in Three Persons.There are two ways in which to read this: Either God is three persons who are three identities, or God is three persons in that He is three individuals. Either God has three faces, or He is three seperate beings. This is where your logic and reason continually founders. Because your logic and reason cannot grasp the testimony of scripture you are reduced to declaring that it is 'contradictory'; only because your logic and reason are demanding the final say rather than submitting to the testimony of scripture.If we accept that God is three individuals, we come to a contradictory conclusion. God is of one substance. Therefore, God is of an individual substance. This means, he cannot be three individuals for that would be the equivalent of saying He is three substances. As established above, we cannot divide the substance. So how can God be three persons? ??Can you see this contradiction? You have quoted large sections of the Catholic dogma, but I doubt that you have understood hardly any of it. The testimony of scripture is that the Word was with God; this is identity. And that the word was God; that it unity for 'there is one God' is the cardinal point of the Shema. The creeds have sought to defend the truth of these two statements without attacking one to defend the other. They are historical documents arising from the controversy of their day. The 'contradiction' lies in your mind and your own view of 'logic and reason'. The Father and the Son and the Spirit are clearly self-conscious and yet there is One God; traditional Christianity has called this mystery Trinity.

Hi brother. I think what I'm reading here, and I've followed this thread with careful reading, checking and re-reading, as it a very useful and fruitful teaching thread for the discerning, ...again what I think I hear you saying is that worship shouldn't go directly to the person of the Holy Spirit? The godhead has no division in it. Unlike humans we have jealousy envy etc... But not with God. So one of the biggest tricks of the enemy is to get us to reason about God from our humanity. God doesn't get jealous over us worshipping The Father, over the Son or the Holy Spirit over the Father etc...I think that you may have some misunderstanding on what true worship is. (hint: it's not singing 3 fast songs 2 slow songs and hoping for the Lord to move with giftings of the Holy Spirit in a church service) That actually is a very shallow view of worship. The truth is that we can't even approach unto God in worship without the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He would send us "Another" comforter and He would etc..... You need to think about that. True worship is an expression of worth-ship toward God, esteeming obedience to His teachings and Word above our own wills,reasonings and ways. In the very act of doing God's word you are worshipping the Holy Spirit :-o since without Him there is no genuine obedience. Don't let the devil mess with your head over this name , that name or the other name :-)

a quotation from Augustus Strongs' Systematic TheologyIn the nature of one God there are three eternal distinctions which are represented to us under the figure of persons, and these three are equal. This tripersonality of the Godhead is exclusively a truth of revelation. It is clearly, though not formally, made known in the New Testament, and intimations of it may by found in the Old.The doctrine of the Trinity may be expressed in the six following statements:1. In Scripture there are three who are recognized as God.2. These three are so described in Scripture that we are compelled to conceive of them as distinct persons.3. This tripersonality of the divine nature is not merely economic and temporal, but is immanent and eternal.4. This tripersonality is not tritheism; for while there are three persons, there is but one essence.5. The three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal.6. Inscrutable yet not self-contradictory, this doctrine furnishes the key to all other doctrines.Robert has drawn our attention to some of the passages in the Old Testament which seem to be understandable only in the later light of tri-personality. eg the famous 'we' passages in the creation narrative is a natural starting place and also the 'Shema' which in a strictly literal translation would read "Hear O Israel, Jehovah our gods is one Jehovah". The objectors say that this is only a formal 'honourific' use of the plural of 'elohe' (elohim) but there is room within this phrase for a deeper significance.One of the most thrilling narratives of the Old Testament is Isaiah's vision recorded in Isaiah 6. The treishagion or 'Holy, Holy, Holy' is itself a startling phrase. In Hebrew 'Holy, Holy' might be a way of saying 'Most Holy' as in the Holy of Holies (and eg Song of Songs). This idiom of doubling a word to intensify its impact is a regular feature of the Hebrew mind. But why three times 'Holy'? There is room here too for a deeper significance. My Hebrew is very basic although I have acquired some understanding of its grammar. I use a version of the KJV known as the Newberry Bible which often draws attention to things which would be missed in an ordinary English translation. The Isaiah 6 passage has an interesting feature. Not only is the word 'holy' repeated three times but the word for Lord... Is. 6:1 (KJVS) In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Is. 6:8 (KJVS) Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Is. 6:11 (KJVS) Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, ... is in a plural form. Hebrew is capable of expressing 'single, dual and multiple'; this is the multiple form. It seems that this word was originally Jehovah in the Hebrew text but was changed by the Sopherim to the word 'Adonai' being 'lord' in its multiple form.This passage contains another 'we' section. “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.” (Is. 6:8, KJVS) Campbell Morgan believed that this was a 'conversation' of the kind overheard in Psalm 2. Isaiah responded, at an earthly level, to this appeal but I can't help but wonder if Isaiah was not hearing one of these 'eternal' declarations which exist 'long before' they come into time. Suppose we have here a conversation within the Godhead... This is not conscription but the call for a volunteer, and yet the 'one' who was chosed to 'go' would go on behalf of all. Perhaps we hear another echo of this in Paul's revelation in Philippians: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:5-11, KJVS) This includes the statement that prior to the incarnation the Word was 'in the form of God'. What can this mean? The word is repeated in 2:7 as 'the form of a servant' where it seems to precede being 'made in the likeness of men'. I want to explore a little speculative theology here and ask other readers to 'destruction test' it. Is the phrase "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: " one stage or two? Did he 'take upon him the form of a servant' BEFORE he 'was made in the likeness of men'?I am not trying to create a timetable but just an order of events. Did the Son choose to 'take upon him the form of a slave'? If so, we are touching thrilling secrets. Within the Godhead, the question 'who will go for us' which implies a delegated role 'for us' was answered by the Son who 'took upon himself the form of a slave'. This is referred to as 'emptying himself'. It is key to see the subject of the verbs in these passages. It was the Son who1. was in the form of God2. who did not grasp at 'equality' with God3. who emptied himself4. who took upon himself the form of a slave5. BUT who was 'made' in the 'likeness of men'. Points 2-4 are all active where the subject of the verb (or the one performing the action) is the Word, but point 5 is 'passive'; this is not something the Son 'does' but something which 'happens to him'.The Son offers Himself, within the Godhead, to 'go for us'. He empties himself (or makes himself of no reputation) and is 'given' a body to fulfil the will of the Godhead “Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;” (Heb. 10:5, ASV) This 'moment' is captured in the exultant declaration of “Then said I, Lo, I am come In the roll of the book it is written of me To do thy will, O God.” (Heb. 10:7, ASV)I am not being disrespectful when I say I get the feeling of 'we have lift-off' when I read these verses. We are hearing the echoes here of things beyond our reach. In some sense 'changes' are taking place with the unchangeable godhead. The changes however have to do with preparation for incarnation.Incarnation was not God only in 'the likeness of men' but the 'Word became flesh'. That is more than identification it is 'trans-form-ation'. The Word was in the beginning and who was with God and was God became 'man'. He laid aside His 'glory' for the purpose of redemption. In an inexplicable way He made God's glory 'visible' “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, KJVS) and yet this glory manifest in flesh was a 'glory' in between two other periods of shared 'divine glory'. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5, KJVS) This is 'glory...with thee'. The Greek preposition here is 'para' 'by the side of. And yet God had plainly said: Is. 45:6 (KJVS) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Is. 45:21 (KJVS) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. This is Jehovah, the name shared by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Some 'names' are not shared, others are. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. This is not independence but individuality. Unity in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.

To buttress Ron's points that indeed all of the persons within the Godhead are called 'Jehovah' I wish to draw attention to more passages that demonstrate the same truth:Compare these passages: I [YAHWEH/Jehovah] have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear... (Isaiah 45:23)That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:10, 11) Compare also Isaiah 44:6 to Revelation 1:11, 17Thus saith the LORD the king of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I AM the first and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God... (Isaiah 44:6) I Am alpha, and omega the first and the last... v. 17... Fear not I am the first and the last: I am that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore. (Revelation 1:11, 17) God told Moses to tell the children of Israel, "I AM THAT I AM"... I AM hath sent me unto you. Yet, when Jesus told the people in John 8:58... "Before Abraham was, I AM" it was a clear allusion to Exodus 3:14. Knowing full well what Jesus was saying they tried to kill Him.Further we read in Isaiah 42:8:I Am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, further in Isaiah 48:11...and I will not give my glory unto anotherCompare that to what Jesus said to the Father in John 17:5:And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine ownself with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. It is grammatically impossible to understand this passage any differently than one 'person' speaking to another 'person'. It seems to me that to further Ron's point and use his "we have lift off...' it is as though Christ was manifest in the flesh and the time of His departure was at hand. He had near to 'finished' His course with a mighty 'mission accomplished.' Christ, the second person of the Godhead in anticipation of assuming again all those things that He had 'emptied Himself' of and will soon sit down in His Father's throne with the glory He had before His incarnation. What could possibly be more marvelous than the fulfillment of the, "whom shall I send and who shall go for Us" of Isaiah 6? So much was at stake and so much was hanging in the balance. Wherefor God hath highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every name..." Christ willingly laid down all that the Devil so wrecklessly sought for Himself. Satan wanted to be 'like the Most High God', yet Christ, took on Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. Our minds stop past finding out the blunt force trauma laid upon the Devil's head enough to bruise our Lord's 'brass' heel! That is a first class stomping.

May I ask you some questions?Hi Hans, yes, I will try. Will you try and answer mine?When Jesus spoke, did He speak as Jesus, did He quote the Holy Spirit or did He speak as the Holy Spirit?I don't know what you mean by "speak as Jesus", Jesus was Jesus so He spoke as Jesus, however He spoke what His Father gave him to speak:John 12:49-50For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.When Jesus praised and worshiped the Father, did He worship the Holy Spirit?When Jesus was worshipping the Father He was worshipping the Father.He is an example of Jesus Worshipping the Spirit though:Matthew 4:1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.When Jesus told us “in that day” to ask Him no longer any questions but to ask the Father in His name, did He mean the Holy Spirit?I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. The Father is the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.When you pray “in the Spirit,” do you pray led by the Spirit, or do you pray to the Holy Spirit?Please tell me what you mean by "in the Spirit" and I'll try and answer the question.When you have received the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of His Son and – according to God’s Word - you cry out Abba! Father! what does this mean? Does it mean that you cry out Holy Spirit, or does this mean that you cry out Jesus, or this it mean that you cry out Holy Spirit, or all three of the Triune Godhead. Or just maybe, it means that you cry out Abba! Father! just as it is recorded in God’s Word.I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. The Father is the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.Is the uneasy witness to the spirit of these Christians just a misunderstanding of the “power of God,” or is it the warning by the Holy Spirit that something is radically wrong?1 Corinthians 14:33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peaceTherefore it is not a warning by the Holy Spirit but "another" spiritHow do we test the spirits that operate in an environment as the Toronto Blessing, when they primarily worship the Holy Spirit, One God of our Triune God?1 John 4:1-3Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.This is one test, another is that the Holy Spirit will not contradict the Bible, such as 1 Cor 14:33

Dear Robert and Philologos,In an attempt to understand what you are saying, I have made a summary of your posts. Here goes:God is three persons. He is three persons who are unified by one essence. When we say person, we are not just speaking of a "persona" or "face" but rather, three individuals. The word individual means a subdivision by which cannot be divided any further (in-divide-ual). Therefore, by this, you are saying God is a "godhead" which is another way of saying that God is a council of three persons who are in perfect agreement. The name of the council is Jehovah. This name, however, has been substituted with the word LORD in the bible. The council of three shared everything. They shared all authority, knowledge, power, glory, everything, so much so, that they are considered "one." So much so, that when Jehovah spoke, He said, "I" instead of "We." So much so, that when we look upon one, we look upon them all. That is why Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the father.The three members of the council have always existed. They are infinite. Their union is perfect in that it is a true commitment of love. The council is complete in three. There are no more than three and no less than three. God is three persons in one. This means that God is an essence or substance or nature. This essence exists within three persons who make up the Godhead. They share this essence in agreement. This essence or substance or nature is Holy love. The three members of the council share love. No individual member of the council is God. Rather, all three members of the council unified together in love are God. They share a perfect relationship of love. Therefore, God is three persons without conflict.Each member of the council, therefore, is a recognizable individual not to be confused with the other members of the council. The father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Spirit. etc.Therefore, God is divisible into three seperate persons: the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. However, these three persons are indivisible in essence. They all bear the essence of God.The story continues....Humanity needed a savior, and so God asked, "Who shall we send?" Who shall we send to become a man and do what man cannot? This was something only God could do. A member of the council stepped forward and agreed to take on the lowly position of becoming a man. This member submitted Himself unto the Council and came to earth. He was given the name Jesus Christ.Jesus came to earth, died, and was resurrected. In doing this, Jesus was given all authority over Heaven and Earth. Jesus Christ was made Lord. He was not given authority over the council (Jehovah), however, this one person (Jesus) of the council became Lord. What of the other two members? They still exist under the council called "Jehovah." Jesus is only one member on the council (only one person), and yet His name is above all other names. Jesus is Lord. The rest of the council, therefore, has no authority or power, for they have given it to Jesus. Jesus has been made Savior, Redeemer, King, Judge, and Lord. Jesus is Lord for a time until all things have become subject unto Jesus. This means that anyone who does not submit unto Jesus, who does not accept Him as thier Savior, will be judged and cast to Hell. Once this has been completed, Jesus will again submit unto the council, giving His authority back to the council, so that God will be all in all. By saying that God will be all in all, we are saying that God's essence will be all in all. God Himself, the three persons, will not be in all. Although, right now, the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. This person, the Holy Spirit, lives inside of us and controls us. Jesus does not live inside of us, because He is a seperate person. God lives in us because the Holy Spirit lives in us. However, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, and thus, Jesus does not live in us.....Does this summarize what you are saying? What things would you change?Thanks,Blake

Hi BeenBlake,Without going through the whole of your summary, I need to first point out that it appears you are trying to make a mental model of what we are saying and this is impossible. Let me explain. If I were to ask you if an atom has a 'nucleus' filled with protons and neutrons you would likely say yes. If I said it had electron(s) you would likely agree. Now here comes the problem. We just established that there is a trinity of items here (protons/neutrons/electrons); but what would a model look like in three dimensions? The classic model looks like a solar system; but now we know that on a quantum level particles behave like waves so completely different models were envisioned. No one has ever been inside of an atom to look around real good, so we are left to make a visual model from certain factors that we believe to be true. Many questions have been asked as some conclusions seemed to be impossible. I.e. how can a bunch of 'like charged' particles (that should repel each other) exist in a tiny concentrated nucleus? What is holding that together? The proof that something is holding it together is in the fact that 'splitting' it creates an atomic blast (God is upholding all things by the Word of His power BTW).What does this atom look like? Some say that the behavior of the electron resembles a 'cloud' and others have made diagrams that make visible 'that which is invisible.' regardless, these models can only serve as tools to help us get our head around such a marvelous and mysterious phenomena. Now lets turn the microscope the other direction. Better yet, lets leave off physical examination and consider that God exists beyond the three dimensions of space and time our finite minds are limited to in its ability to comprehend. The term 'counsel' may well be a valiant attempt to make a model of the Godhead for our understanding, but it must inevitably fall along with those models that have described the Trinity as a "three headed god." We simply cannot make a model of God in that way without falling short and ruining the whole. Example: If I ask a 'line' to describe a triangle or a square he could never do it. Why? because he is a one dimensional line and lines cannot comprehend two dimensional objects. So what if I ask a triangle or square to describe a cube or a pyramid? How would he make a model in two dimensions and do justice to three dimensional object? The cube could make a square model, but not vise versa. This is our delima.

In an attempt to understand what you are saying, I have made a summary of your posts. Here goes:God is three persons. He is three persons who are unified by one essence. Wrong. Therefore, by this, you are saying God is a "godhead" which is another way of saying that God is a council of three persons who are in perfect agreement. Wrong.The name of the council is Jehovah. Wrong.This means that God is an essence or substance or nature. This essence exists within three persons who make up the Godhead. Wrong.This means that God is an essence or substance or nature. This essence exists within three persons who make up the Godhead. Wrong.No individual member of the council is God. WrongRather, all three members of the council unified together in love are God. They share a perfect relationship of love. Therefore, God is three persons without conflict. Wrong. The father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Spirit. etc. Right!!!Therefore, God is divisible into three seperate persons: WrongI cannot believe that you believe we are saying the things that I have outlined above. If this is the kind of Trinity you oppose, then I too am anti-trinitarian. But this is not Trinitarianism but a 'straw man' that you have set up in order to knock down.

Dear Philologos,The Athanasian Creed states, "Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance."You quoted from Augustus Strongs' Systematic Theology:4. This tripersonality is not tritheism; for while there are three persons, there is but one essence.Key word: essenceYou said...This is Jehovah, the name shared by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Some 'names' are not shared, others are. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. This is not independence but individuality.The key word here is individuality.The Son offers Himself, within the Godhead, to 'go for us'.This quote makes me think council. Within the council, Jesus offered to go. 'I and my Father' and 'we' show separate consciousness of being, key elements of 'personhood'.Don't you see, Ron, what is going on here. I am trying to tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, is a poor attempt at explaining God. You should not use the word "person" in order to establish the difference that exists between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. And personally, I cannot accept that God is made up of three seperate consciousness's either. You are saying that God has three minds. If God has three seperate minds, then He is three seperate people. If God is three seperate people, then it is no different than you, Robert, and me being unified on this message board. You are dividing God into three individuals, three parts.If God is three seperate consciousness's, then how is God unified? The word person connotes individuality. This word alone divides God into three parts. If you say that God is not three individuals, and you say God is three persons, then you are saying God is just three faces or personas. You are accepting modalism.Obviously, there has been much debate over the word "person" and because this word was used, modalism was born as a theology, for a great debate waged early on in the Church as to the meaning of this word. That is what I have been trying to show you. However, you refuse to listen.The Athanasian Creed establishes that God is three persons, unified by one "substance." This word also brings about much debate. What do they mean by substance? Obviously, they do not mean God is made up of matter. Rather, the application of this word means "essence" or "nature." God has one nature and one essence. He is one being. That is what it means by saying "substance." I can agree with that part of the creed. However, I cannot agree with the part of the Trinity that seperates God into three persons. And if you are saying "Jesus is God and the father is God", then how can you also say, "Jesus is not the father." This makes no sense. I have to run, but I'll write more later.We are on the same side you know. In love,Blake

Don't you see, Ron, what is going on here. I am trying to tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, is a poor attempt at explaining God. There is a famous Winston Churchill comment that the only thing democracy has in its favour is that all the other methods are worse! Trinity is not the last word about God; it is only the best we have been able to do which does justice to all the data that we have. Your alternative does not do justice to the data we have and so must be rejected.4. This tripersonality is not tritheism; for while there are three persons, there is but one essence.??Key word: essence Your earlier statement said they were 'united by one essence. This is a complete misrepresentation of Trinitarian teaching. I am not even sure whether you can see the difference between these two statements.This quote makes me think council. It may make you think council, but Jehovah is not the name of the council. Jehovah is the name of God; Jehovah is the name of the Father; Jehovah is the name of the Son and Jehovah is the name of the Spirit.And personally, I cannot accept that God is made up of three seperate consciousness's either. God is not 'made up of' anything. You are seeing the Trinitarian explanation as a tripartite being. God is not 'made up of' parts. God is one; indivisibly one. Your view makes God a composite, not a unity.Obviously, there has been much debate over the word "person" and because this word was used, modalism was born as a theology, for a great debate waged early on in the Church as to the meaning of this word. That is what I have been trying to show you. However, you refuse to listen. I am not refusing to listen. I would not have spent the time on the thread if I was refusing to listen. But I utterly reject the words with which you describe your version of the godhead, and am increasingly convinced that you are locked into 'god in little boxes' and then complaining that you can't fit all the boxes into another box which is also called god. Your view of what Trinitarians believe is entirely mechanistic and two dimensional.nd if you are saying "Jesus is God and the father is God", then how can you also say, "Jesus is not the father." This makes no sense. and this is the rock on which your thesis founders. You berate me for using 'logic and reason' and then say this makes no 'sense'. Is that logical or reasonable? Your logic as expressed in the above statement is curious to say the least. Have you thought it through? I am English. Queen Elizabeth is English. Therefore I am Queen Elizabeth? Does it not strike you that there might be an error in the logic here?It is true that the word Trinity is not biblical, but it has been said that Trinity is 'in solution' throughout the Bible. The circumstances of the councils distilled it. There is one God; this is the consistent declaration of the scripture. Christ, upon the cross, referred to My God in the moment of his separation; the Father is God. Thomas, without rebuke, declared 'My Lord and my God'. (an extraordinary statement from a Jew!); the Son is God. Christ says that to slander the Holy Spirit is blasphemy; the Spirit is God. And yet none of this changes the original revelation 'there is one God'. Christians have tried to express this understanding intelligibly in the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one God and yet it is plainly revealed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the subjects of reciprocal personal pronouns. "I, thou, we" are all indisputable evidence of distinctive identity. 'thou' is not 'I'. God is not three 'partial gods' which together produce 'one god'. There is no percentage applicable to Christ's divinity nor to the Spirit's. Just as there is no percentage applicable to divinity and humanity in the incarnation. The Word became 100% flesh, while remaining 100% divine. The Father is 100% god, as is the Son, as is the Spirit. and yet there is 'one God'. The word used to declare, though never fully explain, this revelation is Trinity.

Hi BeenBlake,Ron wrote: Trinity is not the last word about God; it is only the best we have been able to do which does justice to all the data that we have. Your alternative does not do justice to the data we have and so must be rejected.This is the crux of what is happening. I recall a comment one time that you can't cut wood without making chips. Those metaphorical 'chips' on the floor are pieces of revelation that you are having to shave off to get the concept of Godhead to make sense to you. What we are doing is leaving the revelation as it is without leaving anything out.

Dear Philologos,Your alternative does not do justice to the data we have and so must be rejected.My "alternative" is an interpretation of everything you have been saying. It was an attempt to explain what the trinity is proposing. I don't like it either nor do I believe it. However, I have been trying to understand what you and Robert have been saying. I really respect you both and desire to understand you both. Although, it appears I am failing to do so. And I apologize for any accusations I made against you. I am not perfect. You are right to say that I also reason through everything. Please forgive me.Trinity is not the last word about God; it is only the best we have been able to do which does justice to all the data that we have. I agree with that statement. If I had to choose one doctrine of all that I have heard, to take as my own, it would be the trinity. I just don't like it divides God into three persons. I understand the reason for this is to make the distinction between the three. However, I feel it is misleading. From this, anyone could easily say that we believe in three Gods, which is not the case. Have you thought it through? I am English. Queen Elizabeth is English. Therefore I am Queen Elizabeth? Does it not strike you that there might be an error in the logic here?"English" is a heritage. What you are saying is that God is a heritage, and the father and son both share that heritage. Don't you see the error in this? That is the same as saying God is an essence and both the father and son share that essence. There is one God; this is the consistent declaration of the scripture. Christ, upon the cross, referred to My God in the moment of his separation; the Father is God. Thomas, without rebuke, declared 'My Lord and my God'. (an extraordinary statement from a Jew!); the Son is God. Christ says that to slander the Holy Spirit is blasphemy; the Spirit is God. And yet none of this changes the original revelation 'there is one God'. Christians have tried to express this understanding intelligibly in the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one God and yet it is plainly revealed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the subjects of reciprocal personal pronouns. "I, thou, we" are all indisputable evidence of distinctive identity. 'thou' is not 'I'. God is not three 'partial gods' which together produce 'one god'. There is no percentage applicable to Christ's divinity nor to the Spirit's. Just as there is no percentage applicable to divinity and humanity in the incarnation. The Word became 100% flesh, while remaining 100% divine. The Father is 100% god, as is the Son, as is the Spirit. and yet there is 'one God'. The word used to declare, though never fully explain, this revelation is Trinity.This I agree with you wholeheartedly. That is why I reject the use of the word "person" because it connotes that God is divisible into three individuals. I will post what I believe in my heart as the Lord has revealed to me. I hope it will help.Thank you,I do appreciate these discussions.Blake

Ultimately, the question we are trying to answer by the doctrine of the Trinity is this: What is the relationship between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit? How are they the same and how are they different? Here is what I believe:The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). From The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XVIn the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth. We all know and accept that God created earth, but often times we miss the part that said God created heaven. This implies that the existence of God, whatever it may be, exists outside of earth and heaven. Earth, as far as we know, exists in time and space. God is outside time and space. We do not know of what substance heaven is made, but whatever it is, we know God exists outside of it because He created it. Not only does God exists outside of heaven and earth, but God is the only constant, the only true autonomous being, that existence itself can be built upon. Existence depends upon God for it's existence. Heaven and earth are not just built by God, it is built upon God, meaning that it cannot exist without Him. God doesn't need anything. All of creation needs God. God is omni-present. He is everywhere. All of creation is built upon the foundation of God. And thus, God is in everything and is everywhere. This is a poor analogy, but this is the best way I can think of to explain this. Imagine a piece of paper with a pencil line on it. The line represents everything God has created. The paper is God. The line is written on the paper. The paper gives the line order, shape, and form. Without the paper, the line is just graphite dust. It is not a line. Everything we know needs God to give it design. This is God. He is a constant that lives at the heart of all things. There is really no adequate way to explain the depth of this. And there is only one sentence that fits in explaining Him. It is simple. In the words of God, "I AM." This is a complete sentence. God is the only being that can say, "I AM." and form a complete sentence. God needs nothing. God is everything and is everywhere. Immediately, we might realize that this presents a huge dilemma. For if God is everything and is everywhere, then what of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Who are they? What are they? What about sin? Jesus is God's Word. Even though I know this is a metaphor, as God is beyond human language, I take this somewhat literally. Jesus is the Word that comes forth from God's mouth. Jesus has always existed in God, and by that "was God." Additionally, when God speaks, when God sends forth His Word from out of His mouth, His Word is brought forth or begotten. As we know, when God speaks, it is not without cause or circumstance. When God speaks, it happens.God's Word is the expression of God's Will. When God's Word goes forth, it acts. In the beginning, God spoke the world into existence. God said this and that, and everything was created. God's Word is more than just words as we know them. God's Word is power. God's Will is made manifest by His Word which is the power of God in action. Something else to realize by this is that God's Will is always of love. God needs nothing and can benefit from nothing. Therefore, God cannot be selfish in any way. Not only that, but everything God does is by choice. Love is a choice. And God chose to create the heavens and the earth. He did not need it. He chose to create it out of love. When God speaks, it is always in love. And so, Jesus is the expression of God's love. Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is not a separate person from God. Jesus is the person of God. Jesus is the expression of God's personality within God's actions. Jesus can be separated from God in as much as our word can be separated from us. No matter how distant our word may be from us, it is still our word. And I think, the best metaphor to realize this relationship between Jesus and God is to say Jesus is God's Son. Jesus is God's only begotten Son. (This is not to say God does not have a daughter.)Who is the Holy Spirit? As we know, the bible does not speak immensely about the world of the Spirits. This is the world of angels. What we know of this world is where it intersects with ours (as Ron Bailey pointed out). This world is called Heaven, and it is also called the dwelling place of God. Why? If God is everywhere, then how is it Heaven is called the dwelling place of God? Because of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, God is a person. He has an established identity that He chose. God is good. God chooses to be good. Everything God does is by choice, for God is love. People have a substance or being. Most importantly, people have a presence. You can stand next to someone and be in their presence. God also has a presence. And so, God has established His presence in Heaven. He has established Heaven as His dwelling place. The Holy Spirit is God's presence. That is why the Holy Spirit is called the Holy Spirit. Of all the spirits, this one is Holy. This is the Spirit of God. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be in the presence of God. God is everywhere and in all things. Therefore, God knows everything and sees everything. He has all knowledge. This knowledge is made manifest in His presence. The Holy Spirit is the places God chooses to be present. God is everywhere, but His presence is not everywhere. I know this is difficult to grasp and understand. God is in everything, but His person is not. The Holy Spirit can be in multiple places at once even. Imagine it like this. God has built a castle on top of a huge mountain. He is looking down across His whole Kingdom. He sees everything. However, if you want to meet God, or be in His presence, you must come to the castle. Even though God is everywhere, God can choose to reveal His true person, His Holy Spirit, to whom ever He chooses. This is important, for God cannot be in the presence of sin. Likewise, His Holy Spirit cannot be where sin is. The Holy Spirit is God's presence. By this, the Holy Spirit is God's wisdom. The Holy Spirit knows all things. Many people think that Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking about Jesus. Rather, I believe this passage is speaking about the Holy Spirit. The passage personifies wisdom. However, in doing so, it does not use the pronoun "he" rather it uses the pronoun "she." I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of "she" in this passage clearly establishes this. However, the Holy Spirit has been referenced as "He" in the new testament. What about that? The Holy Spirit is God. And so, it is clear that we should call the Holy Spirit "He" in order to establish this. Whether the Holy Spirit is a "she" or a "He", or whether the Holy Spirit is a daughter of God or not, what is important to realize is that the Holy Spirit is God. Saying Jesus is God's son, and the Holy Spirit is God's daughter, is a way of establishing the relationship these two have with God. The use of these analogies are to help us mere limited humans to understand God on levels that are beyond our world.Immediately, someone might say that what we have here is three persons. We must be careful, however, to call either Jesus or the Holy Spirit separate persons. They are all one person. Just as a man has a mind, body, and soul, so God is made up of His Word, His Wisdom, and Him. God cannot be divided or separated into parts. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not parts of God. They are God. They are not modes of God either. By saying they are modes also separates them from God, as it suggests God made them up, as if they are masks that God is wearing. Both are the true person of God. They are not just masks that God is wearing. A mask is not truth. Jesus is the truth. Jesus is the true person of God. Jesus is God as a man, in as much as God can become a man. If you were to create a little world inside of a painting, could you ever step into the painting? Even if you did, the world you created would not understand you. If you wanted to enter into the painting, you would have to paint yourself into it. God painted Himself, His true person, into the painting of earth as Jesus. God did not paint a lie. He painted His true self. God's Word, went forth from His mouth, and became a man here on earth. God lived among us. And God still does live among us through the Holy Spirit. These three are one. They cannot be divided. They are not separate persons. They are not individuals with a separate will or a separate consciousness. God did not create Jesus or did He create the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not a mode or face of God. Jesus is God. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the father. By this, you could say that I believe in a trinity. However, I am weary of any doctrine that separates God into three parts. In the "trinity," it is the "unity" that is most important. It is important that we recognize Jesus was a man(with all the limitations of a man) and is God(with all the divinity of God). Jesus died for us, and has the power to save us. This is what I believe.In love,Blake

Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is not a separate person from God. Jesus is the person of God. Jesus is the expression of God's personality within God's actions. How can anyone have a relationship with themselves? Ron (inthelight) referred to Augustine's old comment that 'God is love' and that must imply both a 'lover' and a 'beloved'. I do not have fellowship with myself, but the scripture constantly reveals participative fellowship between Father and Son. In fact we might infer that the very revelation of God as Father and God as Son is the only way that such a relationship could be described without descending into pagan fertility notions. Relationship demands at least two points. Father and Son are reference points but much more. The Father loved the Son from the foundation of the world. [John 17:24]Have you tried substituting your own definitions in these relational statements? eg "God loved the 'the expression of His own personality within His own actions' from the foundation of the world? At several points during this discussion I have just had to stop, bow my head and worship... but I tell you that last sentence was not one of them! It is sterile. The concept of Trinity breathes life and love and fellowship. I have no fellowship with my word, nor with the expression of my own personality, and neither could God.The Holy Spirit is God's presence. That is why the Holy Spirit is called the Holy Spirit. Of all the spirits, this one is Holy. This is the Spirit of God. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be in the presence of God. Now we are back into 'powers and influences'. The Holy Spirit is not a synonymous term for God's presence. A brief tour through both the Old and New Testaments will show you that the words most used for 'presence' are the words for 'face'. 'before His face' is the idiom for God's presence. To be filled with the Spirit of God is not the same as being in the presence of God, and you will not convince anyone who is filled with the Holy Spirit that it is.I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of "she" in this passage clearly establishes this. This is not heresy; it is blasphemy.Whether the Holy Spirit is a "she" or a "He", or whether the Holy Spirit is a daughter of God or not, what is important to realize is that the Holy Spirit is God. Saying Jesus is God's son, and the Holy Spirit is God's daughter, is a way of establishing the relationship these two have with God. The use of these analogies are to help us mere limited humans to understand God on levels that are beyond our world. This is nonsense.These three are one. They cannot be divided. They are not separate persons. They are not individuals with a separate will or a separate consciousness. Then what do these statements mean? “Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42, KJVS)“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46, KJVS)By this, you could say that I believe in a trinity. However, I am weary of any doctrine that separates God into three parts. Only your misconceived view of Trinitarian statements 'separates God into three parts'.This is what I believe.and I doubt you will ever be persuaded otherwise. But this God that you have created is an image of your own making, and to worship it is idolatry.

Hi RobertRon, I believe your work here should be archived in the Text database.You can get a pdf version of this from my Biblebase site or click Godhead I have a feeling it may be on SI too but I can't find it.

I touched on this is a previous posting on this thread but I think it warrants a separate post. It is the whole question of prepositions. Prepositions are parts of speech. The dictionary definition says:preposition: noun Grammara word governing, and usually preceding, a noun or pronoun and expressing a relation to another word or element in the clause, as in “the man on the platform,” “she arrived after dinner,” “what did you do it for ?” The idea behind prepositions is that they show 'relationship'. In order for there to be 'relationship' there must be at least 2 objects so that the 'relationship between them' can be described. This is where Blake's version of the Trinity comes unstuck. I cannot think of a preposition which could be used in his view of Father/Son/Spirit. His assertion that the Father is the Son who is the Spirit makes prepositions unusable.My opening post on this thread was all about the amazing prepositions which are used in the first verses of John's gospel“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2, KJVS)If there is only one distinct consciousness within the Godhead, as Blake claims, this passage would be nonsense. It would be tantamount to saying God was with Himself. In fact, in the sense that 'pros ton' is used it would be tantamount to saying 'God was facing Himself'. There is a website which has a delightful cartoon from an old "Teach Yourself Greek" primer. It is well worth a visit. You will find it here. You can see the use of 'pros' with the the accusative case in the first of these cartoons - pros ton leonta. The Greek of John 1:1,2 is 'pros ton theon'. It is a preposition which has 'movement' in it. "The Word was Godwards"; it reveals a dynamic relationship and is the equivalent of 'facing'.Of the prologue in John, Westcott says:The predicate stands emphatically first. It is necessarily without the article, inasmuch as it desribes the nature of the Word and does not identify his person. It would be pure Sabellianism to say:"The Word was ho theos (the God)" Thus in verse 1 we have set forth the Word in his absolute eternal being.(a) his existence: beyond time(b) his personal existence: in active communion with God(c) his nature: God in essence.Marcus Dods, in the Expositor's Greek Testament says (a) The Word is distinguishable from God, yet 'theos En o logos' -the Word was God,(b) of divine nature: not 'a God', which to a Jewish ear would have been abominable,(c) not yet identical with all that can be called God, for then the article (the) would have been inserted.The Watchtowers's New World Translation builds its own Unitarian error into its own translation at this point and reads "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." This is poor scholarship and could only have been done by someone who did not understand the significance of Greek word order, or by someone with another agenda.

Been reading through a great deal of this and had to pull out what seemed of greatest import. I guess there is always a point of wrestling with more than a few areas of doctrine or maybe better said 'issues' for us all as we go on. Like the 'issue' of creation it is understood that a normal inquiring is built into us, trying to grasp and understand, finding a fit explanation to our minds...It would be just as unusual not to do so and yet there is a sense of things coming full circle, where you leave off and become content with the explanation of no explanation, better, something along these lines;Robert,Better yet, lets leave off physical examination and consider that God exists beyond the three dimensions of space and time our finite minds are limited to in its ability to comprehend.Not sure which it is, that this is too self effacing and thus a cause for embarrassment or a right impulse to not settle until everything has been wrestled through. One of the most stirring and striking moments in scripture to me has been Thomas' reaction and Jesus' 'explanation' in that moment;Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. I know this has been addressed and mentioned already and have mentioned this elsewhere many days since past... There where times and still on occasion where I could but pray "Lord, I would forgo every blessing for one moment in your physical Presence, to do like Thomas and reach forth my finger". Just to see would be more than enough. About a week ago or so was praying and there are times where I will pace about, musing... In a moment had this thought as I stood still; What if this were to actually happen? Not in my imagination, but with my eye's wide open, right now, literally and 'figuratively' in the most profound sense? It was quite a bit different than being on my knees or on my face and took a bit of concentration to stop the machinery of the mind and... It just made me shudder and practically tremble at the possibility, maybe it is just a hint of that which broke upon Thomas in his moment of exclamation; "My Lord and my God". There is a certain profundity in not only my Lord but my God. Not to muddy this too much but this has been drawing me back to itself the last few days. Need to preface this as it is from the ISV version, how correct or otherwise I don't know, but it seems to drive another profound point home;Joh 17:26 I made your name known to them, and will continue to make it known, so that the love you have for me may be in them and I myself may be in them." (The KJV has just "I in them")That touch of the personal pronoun (ties in nicely with Ron's earlier examples) just brings home a reality that ...I am digressing here. Really came to acknowledge perhaps the greatest 'explanation' I have yet to hear regarding the Trinity, though very well said here;The word used to declare, though never fully explain, this revelation is Trinity.The Amen comes from this;At several points during this discussion I have just had to stop, bow my head and worship... Thanks Ron, me too

Ron B. wrote:At several points during this discussion I have just had to stop, bow my head and worship... I attempted to quote the same statement in response last night but I held back because it seemed like out of topic. I have closely followed this thread since the start and the awesomeness of our God has put a shout of rejoicing in my heart. Somehow I can relate with Paul as he wrote his letter to the Romans when he stopped the flow of his thoughts abruptly and exclaimed -O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)How can we not love and worship a God like Him?

How can we not love and worship a God like Him?Ravi Zacharias has a message where he deals with a childs sense of 'wonder' and how it brings meaning to life to have always that sense of wonder towards God and His creation, etc. Sometimes I don't know whether to bow my head and weep or to run and jump and shout before the Lord with all my might. Maybe the greatest torment in a devil's hell is to have the final reality of having rejected such a majestic God in all his fullness placed squarely on the shoulders. I agree Ron and Mike and TheophilusMD. What wonder and amazement! What majesty! He is the only- only one. He is utterly holy- absolutely seperate and other. Can we wonder why the Cheribim cover their eyes? There is none like Him.

Ron,Reading through this thread has been a blessing. If you don't mind, I've made this topic sticky so that it won't fall off into the archives.

The Watchtowers's New World Translation builds its own Unitarian error into its own translation at this point and reads "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." The reason they have inserted an "a" here is to establish that Jesus is not "the" God, but rather, Jesus is "a" God which is lesser than and seperate from "the" God. They believe the father gave birth to Jesus, and as such, believe that the father created Jesus. They do not believe Jesus is God.Just a note,Blake

I do not not like to stir such disunity, and for that I apologize. I gave my testimony. If none should believe me, I would not care. Who am I that anyone should believe in me? I do not proclaim to be the son of God, rather I testify to Him. And if anyone should judge me for this, then what can I do but submit to thier judgement? Ron, I cry at your harsh words. Especially when you say "But this God that you have created is an image of your own making, and to worship it is idolatry." If to worship Christ is idolatry, then at least I know that my idol is real, alive, and in love with me. In my heart, I know what is true without a doubt. I have met Jesus Christ and He is my God. Jesus lives inside of me and is the best part of me. Jesus is God. I eagerly await Heaven, when the union of our love will be fully realized by all. I do not by any measure think that I am special or better than anyone. And I do believe there are a great crowd of people in all nations around the globe that share this same experience.What wonder and amazement! What majesty! He is the only- only one. He is utterly holy- absolutely seperate and other. Can we wonder why the Cheribim cover their eyes? There is none like Him. To this I say Amen, and say Thanks be to Christ and His love, that I may look upon God without closing my eyes, or being in shame, and that I may experience the presence of the Lord more intimately than I do my greatest human love.Truly, God is great!And praise be to you, my brother Ron Bailey, for all that Christ has and will use you for. May He bless you immensely, and continue to guide your steps.I do not proclaim to be right in all my doctrines, but I am true in all my love. And I do love each and everyone of you, even if I may fail from time to time. May Christ be with each of you as your guide that He may lead you into all truth. In love,Blake

Ron, I cry at your harsh words. Especially when you say "But this God that you have created is an image of your own making, and to worship it is idolatry." If to worship Christ is idolatry, then at least I know that my idol is real, alive, and in love with me. BlakeIt may sound harsh, but to create an image of God is idolatry. It is no accident that the words 'image' and 'imagination' begin as they do. “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”(1John 5:20-21, KJVS)There are many 'Christ's' but the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God and all others are pretenders to His throne and honour.

The reason they have inserted an "a" here is to establish that Jesus is not "the" God, but rather, Jesus is "a" God which is lesser than and seperate from "the" God. Yes, I have had quite a bit of contact with JWs over the years including some intense discussions with the local elders about why the name of Jehovah is never used in the New Testament. My standard statement when they arrive on my doorstep is to introduce myself as a 'Jesus Witness' on the strength of Acts 1:8

Dear Ron,It may sound harsh, but to create an image of God is idolatry. It is no accident that the words 'image' and 'imagination' begin as they do.I have said nothing in disagreement with scripture. However, who can possibly judge this? How should someone know whose interpretation of scripture is correct? Only the Spirit can discern scripture. And only Christ is qualified to judge. So, please, do not judge me. I ask this of you, not for my benefit, for I know where I stand with Christ. I say this, for your benefit, for it is you who will be judged for how you judge others. Please, for you own sake, watch your words.I have not created an "imaginary" God. Rather I have shared what the Lord has revealed to me. I do not worship any idol, but the one true God. The bible is one revelation. I have another. No single testimony is valid. My personal testimony combined with the testimony of the bible provide a valid testimony of Christ. There are many 'Christ's' but the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God and all others are pretenders to His throne and honour.You say "the Christ of Scriptural revelation is the true Son of God", and then accuse me of creating an idol. What foolishness is this? The true Son of God is Jesus Christ Himself, not scriptural revelation. The bible is a testimony of Christ. The bible is not Christ Himself. I tell you now that He is more real to me than anything else I know, including the bible. I know Christ better than I know myself. He is here with me all the time, and I would be a fool to deny Him or say otherwise. Jesus lives in me. He is my everything. I can do nothing without Him. If you only know Christ because of what the bible says, my dear brother, then I challenge you to call out to Him. He is real and alive. He is not just "scriptural revelation". He lives in all true believers. Do you not know Him personally? Have you not met Him in Spirit?2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?In love,Blake

"I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of 'she' in this passage clearly establishes this."This is not heresy; it is blasphemy.I have been accused of blasphemy. Let us see what the bible says on this issue.Proverbs 1:20-2320 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. The above scripture clearly establishes that Wisdom is a "she." One of the things I think is interesting is how Wisdom is described as calling out asking people to turn at her reproof. This to me is the exact description of the Holy Spirit convicting a person. It then says "I will pour my spirit unto you." If we listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and become saved, the Holy Spirit then fills us. Proverbs 2:10-1210 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; It says, "when wisdom entereth into thine heart." The Holy Spirit fills our heart, and when it does, we are filled with joy as described above.Proverbs 7:1-41 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure my commands. 2 Obey them and live! Guard my teachings as your most precious possession. 3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart. 4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family. Many times in proverbs, it begins the conversation saying "my son". Whoever is speaking in these passages, they are obviously speaking to "my son." Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the son of Solomon. Whether it is God speaking, or King Solomon speaking, it is clear that the proverbs is speaking to Jesus. The proverbs is speaking about Wisdom to Jesus. The above scripture clearly tells the son to "Love wisdom like a sister." If Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit is the sister of Jesus. Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man." The Holy Spirit is calling to the sons of man that they may be convicted of thier sins and may turn to the son of God.Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.The Holy Spirit has been called the Spirit of truth. Wisdom, according to the scripture above, speaks truth. Notice the difference here. Jesus said He was the truth. However, the Holy Spirit speaks to the truth. Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: John 16:7-87 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Is not the parallel between these two scriptures clearly apparent? Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love deathMatthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Jesus died for our sins. The Holy Spirit calls us to repentence. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. And so, when we reject this calling, and do not turn to Christ and accept His free gift of grace, we are condemned to eteral death. Based upon all this, is it any wonder that......The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). From The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XVI pray that the truth with be revealed among all true believers. In Christ with love,Blake

Hi BeenBlake,So, please, do not judge me. I ask this of you, not for my benefit, for I know where I stand with Christ. I say this, for your benefit, for it is you who will be judged for how you judge others. Please, for you own sake, watch your words.Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(Jude)I have to say that I cannot in good conscience stand by and allow Ron to appear as though he is 'judging' when in fact I stand along side him and others who wish to contend for the doctrine of the Trinity. It is not a judgment on you 'per se', but we simply cannot allow a heretical view of the Trinity to be brought forth without challenging it and stating the biblical record. This is not a doctrine that is up for grabs. It is a fundamental orthodox Christian doctrine that has been established in the Church since 180 CE and no later than 325 CE. We can agree to disagree on the non-essentials, but this is an essential doctrine that cannot be compromised. It appeared to me from the other thread on Trinity that we had been lured into this whole debate. Just being honest. I don't mind that if it is for the purpose of really digging through the texts and coming to an understanding. There are many other passages we could site if you are truly interested in coming to an understanding. I believe we could do it in the Spirit of Christ and many could learn from it. But, I am not at all interested in drawing swords for drawing swords sake. Again, we simply cannot allow a view such as this to go unchallenged because it can spread and cause much harm in the body. Hence, we are to 'earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints..." It is not an act of malice or 'judgment'; it is a defense of an essential uncompromisable doctrine. How we view God will dictate the whole of our perception of scripture. We have to be utterly inline with God's revelation of Himself. There is no room for subjectivity or any such thing. We have to take the whole of the revelation or we will indeed be guilty of creating a 'god' of our own imaginations.

Blake,This is not personal (what is being discussed)try and keep that in mind. I have said nothing in disagreement with scripture. However, who can possibly judge this? How should someone know whose interpretation of scripture is correct? Only the Spirit can discern scripture. And only Christ is qualified to judge. No, you have written much that is in disagreement with scripture by pouring your own ideas into them. That is neither harsh, nor personal, nor 'judegemental'. Don't confuse personal attacks or character assination with using "right judegement" as we ought. The attempt here is to reason from the scriptures.My personal testimony combined with the testimony of the bible provide a valid testimony of Christ. If they agree, yes. If not who must be incorrect?The true Son of God is Jesus Christ Himself, not scriptural revelation. No Blake, you cannot have this dichotomy....My brothers name is Ken. What do you know about him?Blake, you can go on believeing anything you well like, but do not expect not to be challenged on the things you state. There are just as many indwelt believers here, does the Holy Spirit contradict Himself? Do you fully realize that some here like Ron who has been at this for over 40 years in ministry just might have a bit of knowledge and a lot more experience than yourself?No need to be offended Blake. Go back over what you have written and see if it truly squares with scripture. It is not a matter of being dogmatic, it's just in taking our 'experiences' to scripture, not the other way around.

BlakeIt may seem like you're being attacked but that's because you can't hear voice inflections and see body language through this type of communication. Always keep that in mind, what I see is Bro. Ron pouring out a lifetimes worth of diligent study and prayerful thought on the subject matter. We all at times have interpeted scripture according to personal experiences or revelations when in truth we should let scripture interpet these experiences we have. I use the plural possessive as I sometimes can be guilty of that too. What I see in your posts is a bit of confusion, almost like you've adopted alittle bit of several doctrines and have tried to make them fit into your experience. I would ask that you go to Bro. Ron's site and download the article in the Godhead and prayerfully read/study through it and see if there might not be something there for you.On a personal note , this thread has been very very profitable to me and I have and probably will re- read it many times over the next several months. God Bless you all Bro. Daryl

I try to keep out of these things when they take this turn but I wanted just to say that although there is fundamental difference of opinion between my view and that of Blake, I have always sensed a tenderness of spirit in Blake, and am sorry when my expressions have caused him pain. I do think that Blake's personal pilgrimage has played a part in his current views on Trinity. He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem. In 'soccer' they have a phrase 'playing the ball not the man'. I always try to do this. It is Blake's ideas which I have opposed; not Blake himself.I do, however, believe that our understanding of God is not an irrelevant side-issue but a vital factor in our personal walk and service for God. I am away for the weekend preaching in Nottingham UK but when I return I want to return to this site to show that the concept of Trinity is vital for a right understanding of substitutional atonement. These things are not peripheral.My greetings to you, Blake.

Dear all,How can you not see accusing me of blasphemy, heresy, and idolatry, as an attack on me and my relationship with Christ? When Christ was being accused of blasphemy, did anyone say to Him, "try and keep in mind this isn't personal?" These are not small accusations being made. I would much rather you attack my character, because it says nothing of my belief. If you were to call me a fool or stupid or such, then I should not be offended. However, to accuse me of blasphemy and idoltary, not only attacks my person, but it attacks my faith. How can you not see that? He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem.Here again, this statement offends me for He is spreading lies about me. I love Jesus and I love the scriptures. By what basis do you make such accusations against me? What have I said or done that makes you think I have "dislike for the word"? And Robert, if the Trinity is "an essential doctrine that cannot be compromised", then I guess the majority of Christians are doomed, for there are many who have a distorted view of the trinity and many others who reject it. What is most important is that we believe Jesus died for our sins and that He was resurrected. (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) As Paul established in the scripture I shared, we should test to see if we know Christ personally, and if we do not, then we have failed the test. (2 Corinthians 13:5) I did not lure anyone into this debate. When this debate started, I believed in the Trinity wholeheartedly. I was actually in a debate with someone else on another message board of which the Lord sent me, where I had defended the trinity. In fact, it was not until this thread that I began to notice the contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity. After doing further research, it really began to bother me. For nearly two weeks, I struggled with this contradiction, and kept continually in prayer asking the Lord why He would not let me accept it. I tried to understand it from what Robert and Ron was saying. Finally, just the other day, the Lord settled the matter in my heart and I shared with you what the Lord had shared with me. In no way does it contradict with scripture, and I could easily defend every portion with scripture.I choose not, because I have found it does not matter. People will believe what they want to believe, whether it is truth or not. We have free will. And if someone is truly Christian, then Christ will speak to them. Sometimes, however, people become so absorbed in thier own doctrines and ways, that they deny Christ. This does not mean they are not Christian, or any less of a Christian, but rather that they are human, and in need of Christ. I too am no different. If I were to sit here and say that I am perfect and right, then I would be foolish, for no one except God is good. Christ in me is good, and Christ in me is righteous, however, I am still flesh and blood, and I suffer under it. Therefore, while I know what Christ has said to me, and I stand by it, I do not expect it will be recieved well or easily. If you do not agree with me, then I leave it in the hands of Christ. You belong to Him, not me. Dear Mike, "The true Son of God is Jesus Christ Himself, not scriptural revelation."No Blake, you cannot have this dichotomy....My brothers name is Ken. What do you know about him?If you were to sit and write a long letter to me telling me all about your brother Ken, then all I would know of him is what you have told me in your letter. I would have to trust you about who your brother is. However, if I were to meet your brother in person, then I would not have to trust you. I would know your brother myself. This does not make your letter false or your testimony invalid, but rather, it enriches the words of your letter, because I know them to be true by my own experience of them. Likewise, Christ as described in the bible is one revelation. It is a true revelation of Christ, however, it is not Christ Himself. When Christ enters into the hearts of believers and lives inside of them, this is the true Christ. When this happens, the revelation of scripture is made true in the heart of the believer because they know it by experience. They know the person of Christ as He lives inside them in Spirit.Some people cannot accept this truth, because to them Christ is a different person than the Holy Spirit, and therefore, Christ does not dwell in them, but rather it is the Holy Spirit. Even though scripture does make it clear that Christ lives in us. A person who does not believe in this truth is no less Christian than someone who does, as they believe in Christ. Do you fully realize that some here like Ron who has been at this for over 40 years in ministry just might have a bit of knowledge and a lot more experience than yourself?Yes, and that is why I prayed over this matter consistently for many days and nights. I have a deep respect for Ron and have found many of his teachings very insightful. I have shared them with others. He has been blessed immensely by the Lord. However, just because that is true, does not make him right about everything. If there is one truth I know, only God is right about everything. We all have free will and even though we are Christian, we still exercise this free will. That is why the Church right now is divided into so many factions. We are in deep need of Christ right now. We are in deep need of truth. And just because I don't have the experience that Ron has, does not make me any less creditable. The same Spirit lives in all of us, does He not? Christ is most able to use those who are most open to Him. Christ cannot mold someone who is refused to be molded. Someone who has become so grounded in doctrine, they have closed of thier ears and minds to any new revelation. We must always be receptive and flexible. We must always be humble.Paul said to test all things. He did not say reject all things. I am willing to accept that what I teach may be wrong. I am at the mercy of Christ. I desperately need His grace. I am also willing to keep my mind open to any possibility. All that is truly from God will pass the test. It will prove to be true. Therefore, I am not worried or concerned if no one believes what I teach. If it is truly from Christ, then it will be proven true.My prayer is that Christ will be with each and every person who reads through this topic, that He will lead them into truth, closer to Him, and that His name will be glorified. I pray the Lord will bless each of you with an open mind that listens to His voice as it speaks, and not suffer under your own interpretation or the interpretation of others. May the voice of Christ stand out, shout in your ears and sing in your hearts. And I pray for unity among all of us, that we may be in one agreement.In the name of Christ, Amen.In leave you all in peace and love,Blake

Hi Blake,Quote:He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem.Here again, this statement offends me for He is spreading lies about me. I love Jesus and I love the scriptures. By what basis do you make such accusations against me? What have I said or done that makes you think I have "dislike for the word"? This is not what Ron said. He did not say you disliked the 'word' (as in God's Holy scripture), but the word 'Trinity'. Here is the statement:I do think that Blake's personal pilgrimage has played a part in his current views on Trinity. He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem. In 'soccer' they have a phrase 'playing the ball not the man'. I always try to do this. It is Blake's ideas which I have opposed; not Blake himself.I recall that in fact you did say that you did not like the Trinity and see no real contradiction between what you said and Ron's recollection of that. I concur with Ron's observation in this case. And Robert, if the Trinity is "an essential doctrine that cannot be compromised", then I guess the majority of Christians are doomed, for there are many who have a distorted view of the trinity and many others who reject it. Orthodox Christians for centuries have believed the Trinity as an essential doctrine of the faith. Essentials would include inspiration of scripture, deity of Christ, Trinity, salvation by grace through faith, etc. We simply cannot compromise the essential doctrines.I am willing to accept that what I teach may be wrong. I understand, but this is not one of those doctrines where we can afford to teach an untruth. We may mistakenly teach things that are non-essential and that would be one thing; but the Trinity is a fundamental doctrine that effects everything we believe. Some people cannot accept this truth, because to them Christ is a different person than the Holy Spirit, and therefore, Christ does not dwell in them, but rather it is the Holy Spirit. Even though scripture does make it clear that Christ lives in us. A person who does not believe in this truth is no less Christian than someone who does, as they believe in Christ. I understand that Witness Lee's 'followers' held to a doctrine that was a bit unorthodox in that they asserted that the persons of the Godhead are distinct and the same at the same time. They stated that they were different in persons and the same all at once. This is in addition to the Trinity, not a subtraction. They believed all of the tenants of the Trinitarian doctrine + they believed all the persons were also the same person. I know it's confusing, but thats what they believed. The same person and distinct persons at the same time. I cannot go with this, but I think its the closest similar doctrine to what I have heard you describe..

Blake,Still think you are taking this way too personal. The acknowledgements from both Dohzman and Ron I thought were beautiful this morning, I started and stopped in a response to them finding nothing further to add.Likewise, Christ as described in the bible is one revelation. It is a true revelation of Christ, however, it is not Christ Himself. When Christ enters into the hearts of believers and lives inside of them, this is the true Christ. When this happens, the revelation of scripture is made true in the heart of the believer because they know it by experience. They know the person of Christ as He lives inside them in Spirit.Wonderful! Yes! And there is no contradiction between the two, this is very much the issue brother and I do believe that is what the attempt here is. The things that are bothersome are further back in these threads, the 'extra' 'revelations' if you will...Here again, this statement offends me for He is spreading lies about me. I love Jesus and I love the scriptures. By what basis do you make such accusations against me? What have I said or done that makes you think I have "dislike for the word"? I do believe this refers back to the item regarding the use of "a god" in John, not to scripture as a whole. But note what you stated there about being offended and...Therefore, I am not worried or concerned if no one believes what I teach. If it is truly from Christ, then it will be proven true.Blake, this is not spreading lies about you it is an attempt to both try and understand what you are saying and see if it reflects the same revelation that has already been given in scripture. I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but if I am discerning this rightly the thing that keeps popping up is 'new revelation'. In the sense of it springing new to our understanding, a 'revealing of what is already there but perhaps gone unnoticed ... the surprise of "Ah, I never noticed that before, I never understood it, I see!" Most certainly, but as something 'new' as in 'apart' from... There is nothing new under the sun brother nor is there any need for further revelation that is 'new'."It is finished" carries all the weight of what is necessary.Am short on time here but have been giving this whole matter much thought over the preceding days, trying to understand where you are coming from and as is the norm, re-asssesing my own thoughts. What keeps coming back to the surface is how much a departure from holding to scripture is evident in our day. The cults are notorious for this, elevating felt experience, emotional extractions, matters of the mind into or above what has been written. This is not in a condenming nor accusatory tone towards you Blake but just in general, why the ... "pulling away" from what we have, scripture, Gods Word, the final authority. If it is not a complete and 'closed' revelation, where pray tell does it end? How many volumes would there now be if we were to believe all the human ideas that have gone on since apostolic days?Brother here's the thing that I have found thus far; There is a great deal of mis-information that can be generated in my own mind, it is part and parcel of this fallen condition. There must be something to measure it all against. A great deal of things that I thought to be "of the Lord" I have found to be false and therefore rejected. What is striking is in much of modern day prophecy for instance is how adamant some can be in making statements that they are fully convinced are 'from the Lord' yet can be quite contrary to scripture, but it seems to matter little to them, "The Lord told me and I don't care what anyone says", well I can say, they truly do not understand the self deception we are capable of and so ... "Back to the Bible". It is not to be dogmatic about anything other than holding to what is fixed, unmoveable and unchanging. These are not secondary issues that can be a challenge for us to grapple with but essential core ... mandates that cannot be dislodged. It is not matter of interpretation or opinion, it's humbling ourselves to let go of whatever we might 'think' and accepting what has been said. "It is written". Recall how often Jesus Himself appealed to this.Keep with us here brother, we are in this together, not apart from each other.

Dear Robert,This is not what Ron said. He did not say you disliked the 'word' (as in God's Holy scripture), but the word 'Trinity'. Here is the statement:My mistake. Even still, I find no error in the word "Trinity." I find error in saying God is "three persons." Thanks for pointing that out.I am not against Ron, and I don't think Ron is against me. However, I do find it a bit troubling and difficult to have a conversation with someone who promptly accuses me of "blasphemy", "heresy", and "idoltary."Blake

I find error in saying God is "three persons."Hi Blake, let me ask you a few simlpe questions to try and find out where you're coming from:1. Do you believe God is one?2. Do you believe God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?3. If yes to the above question do you believe that the Father speaks to the Son, the Father speaks to the Holy Spirit, the Son speaks to the Holy Spirit, and vica-versa?4. If yes to the above question do you believe that God is talking to "Himself" (i.e. like we would) or that God is talking to God?5. Do you believe the Bible reveals that God is one and that God is also three in one?

Hi Blake,I am not against Ron, and I don't think Ron is against me. However, I do find it a bit troubling and difficult to have a conversation with someone who promptly accuses me of "blasphemy", "heresy", and "idoltary."I understand. Yet, from the vantage point of defense and those who may be listening in on this conversation, those beliefs have to be labeled juxtaposed against orthodox doctrine and when the comparison is made, it is the only real diagnosis that could be offered from the standpoint of Orthodox Christianity. It could have very well been me saying those doctrines were heresy, etc. It is not a personal attack, it is like Ron said- you have to play the ball not the man. And sometimes playing the ball gets someone incidentally hurt. I believe we need to lighten up and continue this discussion because I really believe you want to know the Truth. I think you arrrived at your conclusion prematurely. We have not yet begun to discuss the whole of this topic. Would you be willing to hold off on a verdict on the Trinity until all the evidence is in? ;-)

Dear Nasher,Is God one person or three? Let us review scripture and what it says about God as a person. Hebrews 1:3 (KJ)Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;The above scripture says, "the express image of his person." This scripture implies that God is one person and Jesus is the expression of that person. It does not say Christ is the image of his person(s). Jesus is referred to as being the "image" of God. In this scripture, the greek word for "person" is "Hupostasis" which means "that which has actual existence; a substance, real being." The greek word for "image" is "Charakter" which means "or stamped on, an impression; the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile."By these two scriptures, we can see that Jesus is the real person of God. Which makes sense. In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Christ is "the exact likeness of God." In Colossians 1:15, Pauls says, "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God." Lastly, Christ says to Philip,John 14:9 - (NLT)Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?If Christ was a seperate person from the father, then He would not say this. This clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is the image of God. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the father. Obviously, by the questions you presented, you realize that there is a distinction between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one, but they are seperate enough to speak to each other. I gave my answer to describe how they are distinct. However, for this discussion, what we need to ask is this: does this distinction mean that God is three persons? In order for us to determine this distinction, we must first understand what is meant by the word person? What exactly are we saying when we say God is three persons? I have gone through the different theological views on the word person as established in the Church through history. The main difference that has lead into much debate is that the word "person" can mean either "persona" or "individual." Let's forget that and see what the bible says:The only time in the old testament (at least in the King James) that God is referred to as being a person is in this scripture:Job 13:8 (KJ)Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?The Hebrew word used here is "Paniym" which means "face." This suggests that the scripture here was speaking about God's character or nature. It is no wonder the, that the New King James version translates this differently. Job 13:8Will you show partiality for Him? Will you contend for God?Young's says it in a way that makes more sense:Job 13:8 (YLT)His face do ye accept, if for God ye strive?The other instances of the word "person" is used to describe humans, and as such, uses the word "Nephesh" which means "soul" or "'iysh" which means "man" or "Dam" which means "blood" or "'adam" which means "mankind." The point of this is to establish that the word "person" in the old testament is a reference to being a man. Which means, that the word person, in this application, means more than just character or 'nature', it implies individuality. One man's soul is individual from another man's soul. We all share the same blood of Adam, however, we are still individuals and seperate. We all share the nature of Adam, but we are still individual enough that God can save us personally. Can we say this of God? Let us move onto the new testament and the use of the word person. In the King James version, it is used 11 times, and in the NASB it is used 27 times.The NASB never uses the word "person" in reference to God. The KJ version uses it once, in Heb 1:3. However, I do think this scripture is interesing:1 Thessalonians 2:17 (NASB)But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short * while --in person, not in spirit --were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.This scripture clearly makes a distinction between "person" and "spirit." And this distinction is important. What is establishes is that a person has a body. Paul says that he was taken away for a short time in person. This means his individual was taken away. However, he was still there in spirit.The greek word used here is "Prosopon" which means "face." In the King James version, it has been translated as being "presence." This is a different greek word from the one used in Heb 1:3. If the above is true, then we run into a dilemma. Only Christ is was human. Thus, only Christ could be considered a "person." In fact, Christ could be said to be "the express image of his person." I suppose you could say that Christ is God's face. (**edit: I am not saying that Christ is God's face, but one could surmize this from the data.)Obviously, what all this shows is that calling God a "person" is not entirely biblical. There are only two scriptures where God is referenced as being a person, and those two are in the King James version of the bible, but not the NASB. So, what does this mean? Calling God three seperate persons is based upon an interpretation of the bible by the early Church. Theological arguments in the early part of the Church arose over the use of this word "person" and what it means. If you would like to read up on this history, the Catholic Encyclopedia is a good place to start, for it tells of this history. The early Church was divided into "east" and "west" and they argued over the meaning of this one word "person." Some felt it meant that God is three "personas" or "modes." Others argued it meant that God is three "individuals." Don't take my word for it though, read it for yourself: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htmMany people put up the argument that God is three persons because the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit are personified. As you pointed out, the father spoke to the son, and the son spoke to the father. They have also been called "He" which is a character trait of a person. I do recognize that a distinction exists between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. This distinction is not fully understood and is a mystery. John tried to describe it by saying that Christ is the "Word" of God. The Spirit of God is called the "Holy Spirit." However, should we say this distinction is enough to warrant calling each a "person"?The problem I see with saying that Jesus is one person, the father is one person, and the Holy Spirit is one person, is what this implies. It has no biblical basis, so what we have to consider is what these words mean to the world at large. What is the context of these words in society today? If we are going to go around and tell people that we believe in this doctrine, shouldn't we understand what we are telling people?To say God is three persons is to divide Him into three individuals. I have explained this many times in other posts. If we look deeper into the meaning of the word "person", we discover that it is saying there are three Gods. These three heads form a "Godhead."The NASB does not use the word "godhead" anywhere. The King James uses it 3 times. Each time a different Greek word is used, however, each denotes "divinity." The trinity is a biblical doctrine in everything it says, accept for the part that says, "God is three persons." This is not biblical. And because of this one statement, much debate has occurred in the Church, many denominations have arisen, and much division in the Church has occurred. Lastly, "person" is a word that describes humanity. We are people. Often times, we personify things in order to understand them. Obviously, a car is not a person, but we will personify it by calling it a "she." We personify, or humanize, things all the time, from animals to inanimate objects to God. Jesus Christ is a person. He lived on earth as a man. However, can we say the same of the father, or the Holy Spirit? All three are one. And thus, all three are one person, the person of Jesus Christ, who is the image of God. In love,Blake

Would you be willing to hold off on a verdict on the Trinity until all the evidence is in?Sorry, that last post was posted after I read yours. I will say nothing more. Blake

Hi Blake,And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me; (Youngs John 15:26)How would you explain the distinctions between persons within the Deity in this proclimation that would do justice to how we normally understand the use of prepositions and personal pronouns?

Dear Robert,How would you explain the distinctions between persons within the Deity in this proclimation that would do justice to how we normally understand the use of prepositions and personal pronouns?I don't have an adequate answer for you.Something to consider...."Yesterday, my dog Sadie had 15 puppies. She died during labor. My other dog Julie is from the pound and she is pregnant as well." The use of prepositions and personal pronouns does not prove that God is three persons. It does not even prove God is a person. The angels speak. Do you consider them to be persons? Blake

Blake:You have made some good points conserning the word "Persons". It's usage does convey a tritheistic concept. Most of the early theologins "such as Calvin" did not like the word "Persons" but rather used "Hypostasis".The difficulty is that we cannot concieve that God is three yet one. But the revelation of the bible is that God is Three yet One at the same time. The "Persons" of the Godhead exists distinctly at the same time and under all conditions. They are not 3 modes of existance, They are eternally distinct.But at the Same time they are not separate. They both co-exist and also co-inhere. They mutually indwell one another. They share One essense, One Life, and One Nature. This is a mystery but it is the Revelation of the Triune God.The Lord Jesus said, The Father is in Me... And I am in the Father. And He also said, "No one has seen God at any time but the only begotton Son of God who is In the bossom of the Father, He has declared HIm.And agian John 1:1 Says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.God is Triune. He is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. The Father is the Fountian, the Son is the Spring and the Spirit is the river of the Water of Life. They are One God with one Life and essense. And where you have One you have the other two. They are inseparable.We can also say that the Father is the Source, the Son is the expression and manifestation of the Father, and the Spirit is the Transmission of God.The Son has His Source and Eternal Being in the Father and manifest's the Father's Life and Nature and Being. The Spirit has His source also in the Father through the Son and He proceeds in an eternal procession. That is He is the flowing out of God to us.IN Revelation 22 we have the consumation of the Bible and there we see the One Throne of God (the Father) and the Lamb (Christ) is on the Throne, and the River of the Water of LIfe proceeds from the Throne of God and of the Lamb. This is the Triune God. GraftedBranch

Well said GraftedBranch,This is a mystery but it is the Revelation of the Triune God.Hope this is not misconstrued due to earlier comments here... But I have a neighbor who is an elder of some sorts in the JW's and can still recall that he mentioned something very similarly opposite in discussing this, that in effect "Would God not have us to understand this IF it were supposed to be true?" meaning the 'trinity'. This was many years ago now and at the time he was quite capable of tying me into all kinds of knot's, don't mean than in an derogatory or higher minded sort of fashion. Another was "Where do you find Jesus in the Old Testament?" Oh my was I ever ignorant! At the time I could only mention a couple of verses... I need to thank him for that now that it comes to mind, it barely has dawned on me how much that comment stayed just below the surface all these years. Digressing here...This goes back to another thread on evolution\\creation. Mystery and as Robert pointed out there, Wonder! Is not a great part of all this just in that essence, to show us that God is distinctly other than the creatures created in His image? A distinction that separates us into worship, awe and wonder?Why the 'silence'?Why the 'hidden-ness'?Why faith?Isn't the point that we are not supposed to 'get it' in one respect? Doesn't it seem a bit strange that there isn't any real 'explanation' other than what is evidently and I will use a great word that Ron put forth declared and is best done in John 14 - 17? Came back to that section yesterday after leaving off here.Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 14:16 Seems to codify the trinity; IThe FatherThe ComforterChapter 16 is similar. This may have already been established and perhaps is not in dispute, but there is something about the declaration within those chapters that also bears out into another area that was touched on here, that of 'revelation' in accordance or in relation to what scripture states, better declares. (Am becoming quite fond of that word).This goes back to what was expressed about the things we might want to equate in the sense of "felt" understanding that might be perceived 'of the Lord', generalizing it; "The Lord told me" in essence. It came alongside as a parallel reading back through these chapters to note all the times the word 'word' or 'words' is used. It is to draw attention to what Jesus said (declared!)It does come to practically a summary here;Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. This may be a bit disjointed, thoughts have been branching off in all directions...Just want to add one last thing. In scripture what is the 'usual' reaction upon anyone who encounters this mystery in His manifest presence?Exo 3:6...And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. Hab 3:10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high. Act 7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: What is noticeable in scripture is the abscence of long discourse of explanation into mystery (not completely of course) but that of reverence and awe. Think it is wonderful to dig into these areas and explore and learn and grow, this is one area that all must grapple with and maybe this is but an attempt to inject the wonder again. Personally having tied the knotted head into more of an impossible ball to unravel there is a contentment in this area of the triunity of God;I get it now.I am not supposed to "get it"And am sure it makes perfect sense to God.

The use of prepositions and personal pronouns does not prove that God is three persons. It does not even prove God is a person.The word "Person" means "one who has personality". It refers not to human 'person" but one who has the attributes of Personality. That is Self awareness, etc. And not only that but the Bible affirms that man was created in God's image and likeness. That is Man's "personhood" is the image and reflection of God who is "personality" as the Source of all being.THe fact that we as human being are "persons" is derived from the fact that we were created in the image and likeness of God HImself. "Let US make man in Our Image and according to Our Likeness".Man is unique in his "personhood" among all the creatures including 'angels'. And His "personhood" is derived from the "Person" of the Triune God Himself.The reason the theologins chose to use the word "Persons" of the Godhead" is because there is no other word which can be used in language. Persons implies that the Three of the Godhead while co-inhering and have One Life and Essence, at the same time interact and have a relationship such as Father/Son etc. And they have personal awareness as distinct yet they are One in Life, Nature, Essense, etc. This is a Mystery. But this is God and God is Spirit and not physical in essense and as Spirit God is able to exist in this way. We cannot as physical beings. Yet as regenerated believers we are indwelt by the Triune God. He is in us. Yet we are distinct from God and at the same time we live by HIm as our indwelling LIfe.This is the Mystery of God and the Mystery of godliness. That is God manifest in the flesh. When coming to the Divine Revelation we have to understand and define our terms according to its meaning as used in scritpure (or theology). The Revelation of God is not simple and human language is not adequite in and of itself to convey the Mystery of God. And to understand what is meant by "persons" we have to set aside our natural and pre-concieved concept of its definiton and understand it in its context and according to how those who use it mean it. In our day to day life we only use the term person to refer to "other people". But this is not the meaning of the term in its whole definition.We have to come to the Divine revelation with an open mind and not seek to read into it our pre-concieved concepts and Ideas. We also have to call on the Lord HImself and ask Him to enlighten us, Instruct us, and reveal Himself to us in the Divine Revelation. Only if we are open and willing to let go of our pre-concieved notions can we recieve Light. And only by the Spirit's Light can we percieve in our inner man what language cannot convey. That is God Himself and the Things of God. "The soulish man cannot recieve the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them because they are dicerned spiritually.We cannot merely by the exercise of our intellect apprehend God. IN Ephesians 3:17 Paul prays for the Ephesians that they be "strengthened by His Spirit into their inner man... That they may be made strong to apprehend with all the saints the length, breadth, hight, and depth and to know the Love of Christ which surpasses knowlege...Our spirit alone is the organ for the knowlege of God. God is Spirit and our spirit is the organ which corosponds to God's nature. With our mind we can understand things but it is only in our spirit that we percieve and know the things of God even when our minds cannot fully explain or comprehend.To know God and apprehend the Mystery of Christ we have to be strengthened into our spirit. That is our inner man. And this is by the Spirit of the Living Christ Himself. Only in this way can we genuinly know spiritual things and apprehend the Triune God in a satisfying way.GraftedBranch

Why the 'silence'?I enjoyed what you wrote and there is a coherent thread. It is not rambling.IN addressing the question I think another angle can be put forth. That is the very question ignores a grand reality. That is the fall of man and the condition of man. The question implies that God created man and then went and hid and only here and there reveals Himself which would seem to be a cruel state of things.But the reality as the Bible unfolds is God created man in HIs image and Likeness with a spirit akin to Him. Man was created a vessel to recieve God and contain God and to live by God and be His expression and exercise His dominion on the earth.To this end God placed Adam before the Tree of Life which represents the LIfe of God Himself. But Adam never ate of the Tree of LIfe but instead ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and became an independant, self centered fallen person . His spirit died and he was separated from God and banned from eating the Tree of LIfe (Genesis 3:22-24). Adam never had the Life of God within him. He had a choice and chose rather to go the way of independance and darkness. With the death of Adam's spirit came the inability to percieve God in an inner way. And that is the condition of man today.God in a sense never intended man to know God merely in an outward way. But that is how God had to revealed Himself in the OT. But according to His eternal purpose in the fulness of Time Christ came to redeem us and to reconcile us to God and in resurrection as the Life Giving Spirit now imparts God into us as the Tree of Life. Our dead spirit is regenerated and we recieve the very Life of God in Christ (1 John 5:12, This Life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the LIfe). Ultimately through Christ's redemption and imparting Life we shall fullfill God's eternal Purpose for man. To be a vessel to contain God and express God now in the church as the body of Christ and future as the New Jeruselem in the New Earth for all eternity(Rev 21-22).The reason God cannot be known and apprehended by man's fallen intellect is because man's spirit, the organ for the knowlege of God is dead and separated from the Life of God. Man Cannot know God because God is Spirit and man is of flesh and lives by his fallen soul life. He is spiritually dead.1 cor. 1:10 For God has revealed them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God1 cor. 1:14 But a soulish man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are dicerned spiritually.It is not because God created man in this way and just cruelly hid himself. Man by sin died and lost his capacity to know God because God is Spirit. He also lost his access to God as the Tree of LIfe because of sin (Genesis 3:22-24)Untill we have the conviction that we are fallen creatures separated from God and dead in trespasses and sins can we turn and partake of Christ's redemption and be restored and reconciled and recieve God's Eternal Life into us to become not only creatures of God but children of God with His LIfe and Nature (John 1:12). And thus our capacity to know and enjoy God is restored. God becomes a reality to us and we know Him as our indwelling LifeGraftedbranch

Dear Graftedbranc,I appreciate everything you have said, and agree with what you have said.Although, I think you have missed some of the other comments I have made in regard to the word "person". By the way we defined the word "person" alone, we encounter two different doctrines on the trinity. One believes that God has three personalities but is one entity. This is called modalism. The second says that God is three personalities and three entities. This is called trinitarianism. Obviously, the second is the accepted orthodox doctrine. The trinity says that God is three persons, and by this means it doesn't just mean that God has three personalities, but that God is indeed three seperate persons or entities. Some people establish this difference as being three "esse" or three existences. Ron said that this means each person in the trinity has a unique consciousness seperate from the others. According to Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the expressed person of God. To me, this means God is one person with one personality, and Jesus is the expressed image of that. Thus, it is difficult for me to accept the statement in the trinity that says God is "three persons." I think we would all agree that God is one, and Jesus is God. The question becomes, then, what is the distinction between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit? Are they seperate enough to say that they are seperate persons? I like what you said, "We can also say that the Father is the Source, the Son is the expression and manifestation of the Father, and the Spirit is the Transmission of God." However, this statement leans more toward modalism. I am curious to hear your thoughts,Thank you,Blake

One believes that God has three personalities but is one entity. This is called modalism. The second says that God is three personalities and three entities. This is called trinitarianism.I think you acturally have a good grasp on the reality of the Trinity and the problems associated with the common concept of "Three Persons".But above you said that "this is called trinitarianism. Actually this is called, "Trithiesm" which, like modalism is condemned by most as heretical. That is that God is three separate entities which exist side by side in agreement. This is not "One Essence and one substance" but rather just an agreement as a corporation.But as was pointed out, what is missed by the modalist is that the Three of the Godhead are distinct and exist simultaniously eternally and under all conditions. They also "Co-inhere) and cannot be separatied. The Son is eternally generated from the Father. Historically this is called in theology "the Eternal Generation of the Son" That is The Son has existed Eternally in the relationship of Son to Father and is of the Esssence and nature of the Father. The Father is the Source and the Son is eternally distinct but not separate from the Father. He is the manifestation of the Father like a human son is the manifestation of his father but more than that, the Father is in the Son. and the Son lives not by an independant life but acturally lives by the life of His FAther. We have to understand that our human sonship is a picture and a shadow of the Reality in God of the relationship of Father and Son. But in the Godhead the Son and the Father are One and co-inhere mutually indwelling one another. This is not so with us. It is our natural concept that cannot see that God is One God with One nature, one essense and one Eternal BEing so to speak. But that this One God eternally exists in three "persons", the Father, the Son and the Spirit. When you recieve the Spirit you recieve the Son. When you recieve the Son you have the FAther also, They are One. They are never separated and do not exist apart from each other but they are One God and in reallity as the One God they are essentially ONe Person. Yet they are three.It is a mystery but the true scritpural doctrine is not modalism nor is it tritheism. There is One God, not three and the One God is Triune.In our experience we have to say that though we have the Spirit, we also have Christ. And in Christ we also have the Father. Yet the experience of the indwelling God is just one. We do not have three Gods within us. We have One God and we have the Spirit, the Son and the Father.Graftedbranch

Hi Blake,Certainly we could agree that God is a personal God? I would doubt that either of us would say that God is, 'impersonal'. Some have viewed the Holy Spirit as a 'force', but this cannot be so because of the repeated references to Him using masculine personal pronouns. "Yesterday, my dog Sadie had 15 puppies. She died during labor. My other dog Julie is from the pound and she is pregnant as well."I'm terribly sorry to hear about Sadie. it is interesting to point out though, that the pro-choice proponents use the same type of argument to say that an unborn child is not a 'person'. The definition of 'person' is so blurred that they prefer to keep the whole argument contained in that obscurity. The better argument is to say that the unborn are 'human beings' and allow the implications of that to settle in. Either way we know that a human being is a 'person'. Again, seclular society tries to blur the distinction between man and animals. Hence, save the whale and murder the unborn baby. But it does not end there. I knew a young man once who told of a drug induced story that depicted 'carrots' crying out in horror when they we being harvested- as if they were conscious or something. Now, lets turn our scale the other direction and answer this question: The use of prepositions and personal pronouns does not prove that God is three persons. It does not even prove God is a person. We know that man is a person. We know that animals and vegetables are not 'persons'. We also know that the use of personal pronouns does not guarantee that something is indeed a 'person' because after all inanimate objects such as cars and airplanes are sometimes refereed to as 'she' or 'her' or 'he', etc. But they have also been given proper names such as "Bessy" or "Christine", but we know that this certainly does not imply reproductive abilities, etc. It is clearly figurative language. The angels speak. Do you consider them to be persons? So we have discussed so far living and non living things. All of which may be called by personal pronouns or even feminine or masculine proper names. However, there is a clear line of demarcation we must draw. 1) Non-living Objects2) Bacteria3) Plants 4) Animals *****************5) Human Beings6) Angels7) God The angels speak. Do you consider them to be persons? If human beings have personhood it would reason that angels certainly have personhood as they are "greater in power, might,etc." and so would God as He is All Mighty.

Dear Graftedbranc,Again, with everything you have said I agree, and I do understand what you are saying. The trinity, however, establishes this:The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Father is not the Son, the Holy Spirit is not Father, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.Here is where I find error. I believe that the Son is the Holy Spirit, and the Father is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Father. As I once pointed out, how can you say Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and then say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit? This could be true, if "God" were but an identifier of species. For instance, you are a man and I am a man. However, I am not you, and you are not me. We are seperate persons and seperate men. However, we are both men.We cannot say this of God, for He is not seperate Gods who make up one God. He is one God. If I were to say that man walked on the moon, then we are saying our race has walked on the moon. However, if I were to say God walked on the moon, I am speaking not of a race, but of a person. Likewise, Jesus was a man, and I am a man. The Holy Spirit indwells in me. Does this mean I am God? No, I am not God. I am a child of God, an adopted son, however, I am not God. Jesus is God. And thus, the person of Jesus is not seperate from the Father, Jesus is the Father. I do believe God is triune. However, He is not three seperate persons. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The father is the creator who is infinite, the Son is a man, and the Holy Spirit is a spirit. They are all the same, but each exists in these realms at the same time. This is not to say Jesus is a mode of God. Jesus is the expressed image of God. A mode is like a mask. Jesus is not a mask of God. Jesus is God as a man. There is a difference. Jesus was born of man and of God. Whatever substance God is combined with the substance man is to form Jesus. Let me explain what I mean. If God wanted to, He could have just come down to earth as any man. He could have put on a mask, the clothing of a man, the human body, and appeared among men. God did not choose to do this. Rather, He combined His substance with that of Mary to form Jesus. Jesus bears the blood of Adam in His viens. He is a descendant of Abraham, and King David. He had real human blood in Him, and not just any blood, but the very tainted blood that came from Adam. Jesus was born into sin just as we all were. This is how Jesus was able to carry our sins onto the cross. Jesus was without sin. He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law. He then sacrificed His life, His good and sinless life, as a substitute or "propitation" for us. Thus, it is very important that Jesus was in fact a man, not just any man, but a man who carried our sin. Jesus is the Son of Man.Likewise, Jesus was God. Only God is good, and only God is capable of doing what Jesus did. Only God could live as a man and be sin free. Only God can forgive sins. Only God is worthy of worship. Only God can save His people. Only God is a righteous judge. Only God has the power to command demons and angels, and command the earth with His very word. Only God is the giver of life, and only God can resurrect. And so, for Jesus to do and be all these things, He must be God. Jesus is the Son of God.Thus, it is very important to understand that Jesus is God. Especially since we cannot be saved unless we call upon Christ to save us. There is no other name by which we can be saved, and no other God who can save us. If we are not known by Jesus, then we have no hope. In response to this, people immediately say that Jesus is the Son of God, and since Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus cannot be the same person as the Father. A son is the not the same person as the father. Therefore, they must be seperate persons. (This is the same argument I hear other religions use to defend that Jesus is not God.)In my mind, this is the great mystery. How could God who is Holy come down from His throne and be born into our sinful condition? In order for our minds to accept such a notion, we seperate God into parts. The Trinity says that Jesus is a seperate person from the father. The Trinity says Jesus is not the Father. And yet, Jesus has been lifted and exalted on High. Jesus has been given all authority over Heaven and Earth. Jesus has been made judge. Jesus has been exalted, and His name alone has the power to save.I guess, I just don't understand how Jesus is not the Father. God is the Father, and Jesus is God. Therefore, the Father is Jesus. That is why Jesus said to Philip, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."So, my question is, if the trinity is in fact true, then Jesus is not the Father. How is it then that Jesus is not the Father? In what way? Thanks again,In love,Blake

Hi Blake,Jesus bears the blood of Adam in His viens. He is a descendant of Abraham, and King David. He had real human blood in Him, and not just any blood, but the very tainted blood that came from Adam.By 'tainted' do you mean tainted with original or congenital sin? Jesus was born into sin just as we all were.And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (I John 3:5)Jesus was without sin. He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law.Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin. The temptations did not originate from within as would a person under Adam. Those in Adam are subject to "The Sin" which entered the human race through Adam. Christ was clean from 'the Sin' and was tempted not from 'within' but from 'without'. (ed) Christ and Adam were tempted directly by the Devil. Those in Adam need no such external temptations as they are shot through with Sin. It is very important to understand that Christ was not in Adam- Christ was the second Adam. He was in effect a restart for the whole of the Human Race for those who are in Him. The Born Again are in the Body of Christ and have the Holy Spirit; those who are the children of disobedience have that same disobedient spirit and are in what is now "our old man" ('Our' being those who are Born Again). He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law. This is impossible. Only the shedding of Christ's blood could cleanse from Sin and that blood had to be sinless blood as of a lamb without spot or blemish. Abel's blood cried out for revenge. If Christ had Adam's blood it had cried revenge also. Moreover, you could no sooner cleanse tainted blood with obedience than you could make heaven by the works of the law. That would be Palagianism. Sin is a stain that has to be cleansed by a perfect sacrifice. Man's problem is more than disobedience- it is that he is dead in tresspasses and sins. Christ was not born dead in trespasses and sins or He had needed to be Born Again himself. A man born in Original Sin simply cannot take away Sin. Again, as Ron so rightly pointed out a correct view of the Trinity is essential to understanding God's redemptive purpose. I suspect he will take this up and explain it in greater detail than I have here, but hopefully this post will help open up some of the soteriological issues.

Quote:He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem.Here again, this statement offends me for He is spreading lies about me. I love Jesus and I love the scriptures. By what basis do you make such accusations against me? What have I said or done that makes you think I have "dislike for the word"? You realise, I trust, that in the above quote the 'word' I am referring to is Trinity?

Dear Robert,There was no sin in Jesus, and if by my post you thought I was suggesting such, I apologize. All you say is correct, but it does not consider the whole picture.2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJ)For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.It is very important to understand that Christ was not in Adam- Christ was the second Adam. He was in effect a restart for the whole of the Human Race for those who are in Him. Yes, this I know. However, in addition to this, you must know that Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus became the second Adam not by His birth into flesh and blood, but by His resurrection into new life. It is by faith in His death and resurrection, not His birth, that we are made righteous. Acts 13:32-33(NASB)32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'Why would God say of Jesus, "Today I have begotten you" in His resurrection? Did not God say, "This is my son" when Jesus was baptized? Jesus became all of sin. He became our sin. Why do you think Jesus said, "Why have you forsaken me?" Was the pain too much to bear for God? No! God is not weak. He could not bear to look upon His son because of all the sin in Him. Jesus was not just a substitute. Jesus bore our sin. He carried it for us. He took our yoke and our burdens. Jesus became our sin, and our sin was completely done away with on the cross. How could Jesus be our sin, if He was not born of man? Quote:He carried this blood of ours, this spoiled blood, and made it clean by fulfilling the law.This is impossible. Only the shedding of Christ's blood could cleanse from Sin and that blood had to be sinless blood as of a lamb without spot or blemish. Abel's blood cried out for revenge. If Christ had Adam's blood it had cried revenge also. Matthew 5:17 (NLT)"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.Did Jesus take away our sin by abolishing the law? No! Jesus took away our sins by fulfilling the law. Did not the law say we must make an atonement for our sins? Jesus fullfilled the law by becoming the sacrifice which was a requirement of the law. 1 Timothy 3:16a (NLT)Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ appeared in the flesh and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit.Jesus did not become righteous by living up to the law. Jesus was already righteous by Spirit. Rather, Jesus fullfilled all the law required making atonement for our sins. Only God is good. (Luke 18:19) And so, only God could fullfill the law. Jesus died, and we died with Jesus. We died to the law and sin. Praise the Lord, Jesus was raised! If Jesus had not been raised, our faith would be for not. What would we have faith in? We are given new life in the resurrection, not in the death. Jesus was raised to new life. He is the firstborn Son. He is the first to be born again. And all those who believe in Him may also be born again, just as He was. Jesus did not need to be born again. He did not need to die. However, He gave His life for us. He did this for us.If you say that Christ was not born of man, if He did not bear the blood of His mother Mary, then how could any of the promises of the old testament be fullfilled? For Jesus to be a descendant of Abraham, He could not just be born out of Mary's womb, but also of Abraham's blood. Jesus was just as much a man as He was God. Was He not? Maybe I am wrong, and Jesus was born completely of God and was entirely a new creation from His birth. But if that were so, then why would He call Himself the son of man? Jesus was son of man and son of God. This is not to say that His blood was imperfect or that He was not righteous or that He was not good. But merely to say that Jesus was in fact born of flesh and suffered all the temptations of the flesh that we do. Hebrews 4:15 (KJ)For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.In love,Blake

You realise, I trust, that in the above quote the 'word' I am referring to is Trinity?Yes, yes, I already admitted to that mistake. You will have to catch up. I hope your weekend went well. Thanks,Blake

I'm just bringing this to the top again.

It is a mystery but the true scritpural doctrine is not modalism nor is it tritheism. There is One God, not three and the One God is Triune.In our experience we have to say that though we have the Spirit, we also have Christ. And in Christ we also have the Father. Yet the experience of the indwelling God is just one. We do not have three Gods within us. We have One God and we have the Spirit, the Son and the Father.graftedbranc, just want to say that I am appreciating your contrtibutions to this thread. dohzman, you don't need to 'bring it to the top', Jeremy has 'stickied it' which will keep it prominant until he (as a moderator) judges it has served its purpose.

Blake,yes, I am catching up...Jesus bears the blood of Adam in His viens. He is a descendant of Abraham, and King David. He had real human blood in Him, and not just any blood, but the very tainted blood that came from Adam. Jesus was born into sin just as we all were. This is how Jesus was able to carry our sins onto the cross. Yes, this I know. However, in addition to this, you must know that Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus became the second Adam not by His birth into flesh and blood, but by His resurrection into new life. It is by faith in His death and resurrection, not His birth, that we are made righteous. Blake, I don't want to divert to the topic of incarnation, but Christ has 'no tainted blood in him' and was not 'born into sin just as we are'. This is another serious misunderstanding. It seems you not only misunderstand the nature of Christ's divinity but of His humanity too. I don't know why this has happened but something in your understanding of these things is deeply skewed.

Dear Ron,It seems you not only misunderstand the nature of Christ's divinity but of His humanity too. I don't know why this has happened but something in your understanding of these things is deeply skewed.While it is true that I am not right in everything, and I being but a man that is less than God, I do make mistakes. However, I have also been blessed. The Lord has revealed many things to me. I am sorry that we cannot agree. And I am sorry that you feel my understanding of things is skewed. I could only hope that we could learn from each other and grow. I have learned much from you. The Lord has been working in your life, and I have been blessed by your deep understanding of scripture. As far this topic on the incarnation. I know not of what scholars of generations past have said. However, let us review what scripture says on this matter.Isaiah 11:1 (NLT)Out of the stump of David's family will grow a shoot – yes, a new Branch bearing fruit from the old root.John 7:42 (NLT)For the Scriptures clearly state that the Messiah will be born of the royal line of David, in Bethlehem, the village where King David was born." Acts 13:23 (NLT)"And it is one of King David's descendants, Jesus, who is God's promised Savior of Israel!Romans 1:3 (KJ)Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;Philippians 2:7-8 (NLT)7 He made himself nothing; F5 he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. F6 8 And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross.Romans 8:3 (KJ)For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Revelation 22:16 (NLT)"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star."Revelation 22:16 (KJ)I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.The last scripture clearly indicates that Jesus is the "offspring" of David. Notice that Jesus says, "the root and the offspring." This clearly indicates that Jesus was not only born into family of David, He was a relative. In modern terminology: Jesus had the genes of David.As a man Jesus was Holy, even from birth as established in the book of Luke. He was born without sin. He was righteous by the Spirit. However, Jesus was born "in the likeness of sinful flesh." Jesus, as a man, was like us in every way accept for one: He was without sin. He was born into our sinful flesh, and yet bore no sin. Hebrews 2:14 (NLT)Because God's children are human beings – made of flesh and blood – Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.If Jesus had not been born of our own flesh and blood, He could not die. Death is a result of sin. Jesus died, and thus, He had to have the same tainted flesh that we all bear. However, Jesus was without sin. In Him was no sin. How is that possible? It is only possible by God. Only God has the power to accomplish such a thing. Only God is good. And so, for Jesus to be born into our flesh and blood, and yet be without sin (to be good), means that Jesus is God. 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJ)And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Great is our God!In love,Blake

Hi Blake,He was born into our sinful flesh, and yet bore no sin.What is sinful flesh? Is it the physical body or something else?

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the rightousness of God in HImChrist came in the "likenss of the flesh of sin" but as Moses lifted up the brazen Serpent, which was in the likenss of the serpant. so Christ was in the Likness of the flesh of sin but without sin.Just an opinion. Christ was born of a woman. The sin nature is communicated through the man, not the woman. Christ was born of a genuine human woman but without the taint of sin which is dirived from the man. "through one Man sin entered into the world and death by sin."Woman like the man is fallen and has Adam's sinful nature. but Like the fact that the man determins the sex of the baby. so also the sinful fallen nature is communicated throuh the man. A baby born of the union of the man and woman even if it is a female is fallen. but One who is born of the woman alone evidntly does not have the fallen nature. Christ is born of a woman.Graftedbranch

I wish to make an appeal to consider how rejection of Trinitarianism plays out practically in our understanding of the love of God. Consider John 3:16:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)Arguably this passage is the great summary of God's love towards us. We are told also in John's writings that He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. (I John 4:8) And We love him, because he first loved us. (I John 4:19) God is love, but what is the great proof that God loved us? And how are we to understand that love? How can we measure that love? More excellently, how can we understand John 3:16?By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (Hebrews 11:17)Here we have the type and shadow ('figure') of what God the Father had done. As Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also, God the Father offered up His Only Begotten Son for our sins. We are told in John 3:35, The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. The Father 'loveth the Son' is an expression of the relationship between the Son and the Father and is played out metaphorically in the Abraham and Isaac relationship. There has to be two or more or there can be no relationship. So we can deduce from this that on a pure logical level John 3:16 makes no sense at all unless we are dealing with specific persons within the Godhead. Graftedbranch alluded to the eternal relationship between the Father and Son in an earlier post, yet we have to understand the far reaching ramifications of a non-Trinitarian view. If their be no real distinction in the Godhead then John 3:16 makes no real sense and down with that goes our understanding of God's love towards us. Our love towards God is directly related to how we perceive His love towards us. In addition to this we see how Christ so loved His father that He submitted Himself to the death of the cross saying, nonetheless, not my will but thine be done. John again alludes to this and shows its impact on our love for one another:Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (I John 3:16)It is impossible to appreciate the love of God unless we understand to a reasonable extent the love that exists between the Father and Son. If they are not real persons then there is no real relationship. And if no real relationship, then there is no real love. And if there is no real love then what is the Gospel? The whole thing becomes a sham and mockery as its just a bunch of smoke and mirrors pretending to be real relationship with real love. That I can never believe.

Dear Robert,What is sinful flesh? Is it the physical body or something else?I guess by saying "sinful flesh," what I am saying is a bit confusing, and possibly even wrongin context. Jesus was born into the same flesh that we are. He was born into the human body just as we are. There is no difference between the flesh of Adam and Christ in the first birth of Christ as a man. After the resurrection, Christ was born again, just as we are born again, and was given a new heavenly body. Notice that Jesus ascended into Heaven after His resurrection. His new life was eternal. However, his first life was given unto death. Death is a result of sin, and in order for Christ to die, He had to become subject to sin. Christ was born with the Holy Spirit and was concieved by the Holy Spirit. He lived a perfect life and was without sin. However, He became sin for us, so that we may be redeemed. Christ did not need to die or be resurrected. He was already born of the Spirit in His first birth. However, He did this so that we may have life and join Him in this process of being born again. He did this for us, not for Himself.When I say sinful flesh, I mean that Jesus was a descendant of Adam. He was born of the bloodline of Adam. This does not mean his flesh was sinful, for the flesh was never sinful even in Adam. The flesh did cause Adam to sin. The flesh is not evil. If that were true, then all creatures that have flesh would be evil. Animals are not evil. Rather, the problem occurs in that Adam who was in the flesh succumbed to it. He could not resist the flesh. He could not be good. The difference between Adam and Christ was not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Adam did not have the Holy Spirit in Him. In the garden, there was the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. Adam chose to eat of the tree of knowledge. He did not eat of the tree of life. If He had eaten of the tree of life, He would have been born of the Holy Spirit. Rather, the tree of life was closed off from him. Adam then knew what it meant to be evil. To be evil is to exist apart from good. God is good. And so, to be evil is to exist apart from God. Adam was cast out of the garden of Eden, into a world where he had to work for his sustenance and live seperated from God. Although, this seperation from God is not finalized until death. God is the giver of life, and if we are alive, there is a bit of life in us. However, as God withdraws his breath of life, we slowly decay until finally we are taken into death, the final seperation of God. And so, while Jesus was born of the same flesh and blood as that of Adam, He was born with the Holy Spirit. He was made righteous by the Spirit. By this, you could say that Jesus was the second Adam. However, saying Jesus is the second Adam implies that Jesus is going to be the First, just as Adam was the first, Jesus will be the root of a great number of people. Just as we all have been born of Adam, we all must be born again of Jesus. We must all come from the root of Jesus. We must be born again. For Christ to take that position of being the second Adam, for Him to be the root of all who are born again, He had to be the firstborn. He had to be the firstborn of all those who were to be born again. (Adam was the firstborn of all those born of flesh and blood. Jesus is the firstborn of all those born of the Spirit). Jesus is the firstborn son of God. Jesus is the first to be born again. That is what is meant in Acts 13:33 (NLT) in that God raised Jesus. This is what the second psalm is talking about when it says concerning Jesus, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your Father. 'When we are born into sin, it is not because we are born into flesh, but because we are born into a state of seperation from God. Obviously, Jesus was not born in this state as He was born with the Holy Spirit. And so, I was incorrect to say that Jesus was "born into sin just as we are." That statement is misleading.What I was trying to establish is that the flesh of Jesus, the blood of Jesus, was the same flesh and blood of Adam. Jesus was fully and completely a man. He suffered under all the same limitations and temptations of the flesh that we have and do. Jesus was concieved in the womb of a sinful woman. Jesus was born into a world filled with corruption and evil, suffered under the limitations of ignorance and childhood, and was even tempted by the Devil. And most importantly, Jesus died. He suffered our punishment. When I say "sinful flesh," I am speaking of an earthly body that will die and decay. Jesus was born into a body that would die and decay. While Jesus was perfect, His flesh suffered under the consequences of sin that Adam brought into the world. Hebrews 2:14 (NLT)Because God's children are human beings – made of flesh and blood – Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.1 Corinthians 15:21 (NLT)So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ.1 Peter 3:18 (NLT)Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.Does that make sense? I hope this helps you better understand what I am saying.In love,Blake

Dear Robert,I would say that your argument is probably one of the best for the trinity. Consider this:John 15:12-13(KJ)12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.Notice Jesus did not say, "The greatest measure of love is when a man gives the life of his son for his friends." Rather, Jesus said, "The greatest measure of love is when a man gives his life for his friends.What could be greater than to think that God Himself gave His own life so that we may have life? God gave His life for me. He suffered for me, so that I could be His son. In love,Blake

Here is a scripture to consider in this debate: Isaiah 9:6 (KJ)For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.In this scripture, it clearly identifies that the name of the son shall be called "the everlasting Father." I think it is also important to note that his name shall be called "Counsellor." Jesus called the Holy Spirit the "Counsellor." This scripture shows that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the Father. How is that possible? That is the great mystery. How is it possible for God to be a man? How can Jesus be both the "root" and the "offspring" of King David? Jesus, knowing this mystery, even asked the Pharisees this question:Matthew 22:41-46 (NLT)41 Then, surrounded by the Pharisees, Jesus asked them a question: 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?" They replied, "He is the son of David." 43 Jesus responded, "Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, call him Lord? For David said, 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.' 45 Since David called him Lord, how can he be his son at the same time?" 46 No one could answer him. And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.More or less, Jesus asked, "How can the Messiah be both the Lord of David and his son at the same time?" In other words, He was asking how the Messiah could be both man and God at the same time? This is the great mystery. The trinity tries to explain this mystery by saying that Jesus is not the Father, but rather Jesus is a seperate person from the Father. This, I believe, is incorrect especially in accord with the bible. I could show you many, many more scriptures that prove Jesus is the Father. I have already showed you the scripture in Hebrews where it says Jesus is the expressed person of God, implying that God is one person. Jesus is Lord. This is what I believe with my whole heart. Psalms 118:27 (NLT)The LORD is God, shining upon us. Bring forward the sacrifice and put it on the altar.There is one Father, one God, and one Lord. The Father is God. The Lord is God. And the Father is Lord. Isaiah 63:16 (KJ)Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.Isaiah 64:8 (KJ)But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.Matthew 11:25 (KJ)At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.May I be but a "babe".Praise be to our Lord Jesus!!!In love,Blake

Dear Robert,It is impossible to appreciate the love of God unless we understand to a reasonable extent the love that exists between the Father and Son. If they are not real persons then there is no real relationship. And if no real relationship, then there is no real love. And if there is no real love then what is the Gospel? The whole thing becomes a sham and mockery as its just a bunch of smoke and mirrors pretending to be real relationship with real love. That I can never believe.I can certainly appreciate and understand this fear. The truth of the matter is that no one can appreciate the love of God unless they have been born again. For God is love, and in order for us to appreciate the love of God, we must be born of God. We must have God in us. Only then can we truly know what eternal love is, for we will know God and know love.You said that if there is no real relationship, then there is no real love. I agree with this to an extent. However, what you are suggesting is that God cannot be complete unless He is in a relationship. And in order to justify this, you are saying God must be more than one person or else He is incomplete. If a man does not marry, is that man incomplete? If a man does not marry, does it mean he will never know love? Cannot man love that which does not love him back? For instance, a dog does not have free will. Therefore, it cannot love. We cannot have a true relationship with a dog for a dog is not a person. However, does that mean we cannot love the dog? We can certainly love animals. We can love plants. We can love anything. We have free will. We can choose anything to be the object of our love, the object to which we devote our will. God loves all His creation, not only humans. He loves the angels too, does He not? He loves the earth and everything in it, does He not?God does not need a relationship in order to love. However, as we know, love that is returned is glorious. It is awesome to love, and it is glorious to be loved. When a man is loved by a woman, she brings him glory. Is not a loving wife the prize of a man?Likewise, the love we give God brings Him glory. Our choice to give our free will to Him, to direct our will toward him, to devote our lives to Him, to submit unto Him, brings God glory. For God did not force us to do this, rather, we chose Him freely. Love as we know is a choice. God chose us. And in return, we choose God. We must make the decision to choose God. He cannot force this upon us. He has already chosen every single person who has ever lived to be his object of love. God is love, and thus, God loves everything, including Himself. Many people will point out that loving oneself is not love at all, but selfishness and the opposite of love. However, that is not entirely true. Selfishness means that you love yourself first, more than anything else. However, if you are a parent, you understand the importance of loving yourself. For you know that your children depend on you. You know that you children reflect every part of you. And so, you give yourself love in order that your children may also be loved. Loving yourself, doesn't mean being selfish or self-centered, but it means realizing the importance and significance of who you are. As a parent, you know that you are vital to the life of your children. Likewise, God realizes the importance of being God. He knows that He is needed. He knows that He is the only God, and that He must maintain that position of being God. In other words, God chooses to be who He is, and He is completely secure and established in that person. That is what it means to love oneself. You are confident in who you are, so much so, that you do not fear anything or anyone. As a human, to love oneself means to put oneself first. However, we strive to always put others first. We are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. If we did not love ourselves, then how could we ever love our neighbor? God does not need anything. He is perfect and complete. God doesn't need a relationship. He is perfectly content and happy with Himself. He doesn't need anything. On this basis alone, God cannot be selfish. What can anyone possibly give God who has everything? What could God possibly give Himself? He is everything, owns everything, and is complete in everyway. And yet, God still desired to have a wife. As Ron pointed out, God thought about humanity way before He created us. God does not need us. God wanted us. God chose us. This my friend, is truly an act of love. All of creation was created in love, for God had nothing to gain from it. He did it, not because He needed to, but rather because He chose to. This is love. God chose us.God does not need our love, God wants our love. Is this not the nature of love? As men, do we not want our wives? Does not a deep passion stir inside of you for a woman? Is it because you need her? Or is it because you want her? God wants us. He has a deep want for us like that of a man for a woman. He wants our love. God is not lonely or desperate. Rather, God is confident and secure. The reason I tell you all this is because you are missing something. You are forgetting about us. God wants a relationship with us. And this is key. If God were in fact three persons, then why would God even want us? Does not God make it clear that a marriage should be between one man and one woman? Do you want to compete with another person for God's love? The Church is the bride of Christ. The Church is the wife of God. Our relationship with God will be unique, like that of a husband and wife. Jesus came to earth for us. He came to earth so that we may love Him. He made it possible to choose Him freely.People say, "God must be three persons, for Jesus spoke to His father, and His father spoke to Jesus. If they are one person, then that is the same as saying God is crazy." Jesus is the great teacher. He is the greatest teacher of all. And what better way to teach, then to demonstrate in person. Jesus, who is God, came to earth for us. There is no other reason. He had nothing to gain or benefit by becoming a man. He did it all for us. His every action, His every word, His everything was done in love for our benefit. Do you honestly think that Jesus needed to pray? If Jesus was one with the Father, why would He need to pray? Jesus was given all the authority on Heaven and Earth. Why would He need the Father? Jesus did all these things for us. He was trying to teach us. We are followers of Jesus. God came to earth and did all this to teach us. He did not just tell us, He showed us. Jesus lived it. Jesus was the Word of God made flesh. Some people say, "Well that is just modalism." It is not. Jesus was not a mask. He was not a mode. He was the real person of God. God came to earth and lived as a real man, a real human being, a real person. He showed us His true person. Does not the bible say that Jesus represented God in every way? Some people say, "Why didn't Jesus just come out and say that He was God, or say that He was the father?" Because, God wants us to choose Him out of faith. If Jesus went around saying, "I am God" and then proved it, how could we choose Him? How could we believe Him or have faith in Him if Jesus proved it. Rather, Jesus did this so that we may believe in Him. Is it no wonder the authenticity of the bible cannot be proved? If it were, could we have faith? Faith is all about trust. We must first take a leap of faith, and trust in Jesus without knowing whether He is God or not. Rather, we call out to Him and ask Him to save us. We choose Him. We humble ourselves before Him, which means, we choose Him not out of fear, but out of our need for Him. After we are saved, we realize the truth. We realize that Jesus is God.The last question people ask, "If Jesus is the Father, how could He die?" This is the great mystery. How could God come to earth and be a man with flesh and blood, not just any man, but a man who died. Nothing is impossible for God. Even still, this single act has confounded the wise. And yet, it is so simple that even a child can understand it. Jesus died for me and I didn't deserve it. I John 3:16 says that we percieve the love of God because He laid down His life for us. Jesus died for me. When we truly realize that Jesus died for us, then what is our reaction? Jesus gave His life for me that I may live. Because of this, I want to give my life to Him in return. I have chose to make Jesus my God. I have chose to give Him all my devotion and love. I have chose to give Him my will. How could I not? This man gave His life for me. And yet, by doing this, means that I am submitting unto Him. I am saying, "Jesus, I am less and you are more. I want to make you more. I want to give you everything that I am. I want to be with you and near you."God loved us first, so that we could in turn love Him. This is the gospel. The gospel is that God loved us first, and gave His life, so that we may live. All who believe in Jesus Christ shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The good news is this: In Jesus Christ, there is life.In love,Blake

Hi Blake,You are correct in your assertion that Isaiah 9:6 and a few other passages seem to indicate that the Messiah will be called the Father, etc.; however there are also passages that you mentioned that seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit and Christ are one and the same; but, what I believe you are confusing here is 'substance' and 'person'. For example:My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10)Clearly Jesus is saying here that He and the Father are 'one' and yet at the same time draws a definite distinction, My Father, which gave them me.... The unity of the persons is shown in saying, I and my Father are one, yet this is not one person, but one substance. Consider this passage:If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. (John 5:31, 32)In these passages we have our Lord appealing to the testimony of another apart from Himself as evidence that He was who He claimed to be. But could a mere man have been witness?Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. (v 33-35) John Baptist was the greatest man who lived apart from Christ, but his witness was not enough. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. (36, 37)This coincides with John 8:16-17:And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. If the Father and the Son are the 'same person' our Lord here has no argument. But because the Father and the Son are seperate 'persons' then the whole argument stands, ...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. (Deut 19:15b) To assert that they are one person is to make them one and the same witness. this destroys the whole of I John 5:9:"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son’"

If Jesus had not been born of our own flesh and blood, He could not die. Death is a result of sin. Jesus died, and thus, He had to have the same tainted flesh that we all bear. However, Jesus was without sin. In Him was no sin. How is that possible? It is only possible by God. What you seem to be saying here is that there could have been no 'death' without Adam's disobedience, and that this must mean Christ was under the same condemnation as Adam. “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.” (Rom. 5:16, KJVS) Adam's condemnation was that 'in the day' he ate of the forbidden tree he would die. He did die, 'in the day' that he ate of that tree. This was not his physical 'death' but a much more fundamental death of which his ultimate physical death was symptomatic. Christ shared Adam's 'genes' but not his 'condemnation'. Sin is not natural to human beings it is an aberration. There was no aberration in Christ; he was as Adam had been created.Your reference to 'tainted flesh' is another ancient 'heresy'. I am not suggesting that you have taken it from there but that you are making the same mistakes as did the ancients. Luke's description of the conceived God-man is mysterious and thrilling. “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35, KJVS) Christ did not partake of 'sinful flesh'; the care with which this is conspicuously NOT said is wonderful...“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” (Rom. 8:3, KJVS)If he had come in the likeness of 'flesh' and not in 'real' flesh, that would have been 'docetism', if he had come in 'sinful flesh' which had to be purified in some way that would have been on the way to gnosticism in which 'flesh' is seen as 'wicked'. Both these errors are eliminated by a careful reading of the text which has 'in the likeness of sinful flesh'.

Hi Blake,The reason I tell you all this is because you are missing something. You are forgetting about us. God wants a relationship with us. And this is key. If God were in fact three persons, then why would God even want us? Does not God make it clear that a marriage should be between one man and one woman? Do you want to compete with another person for God's love? It was my intention in the post to demonstrate that God has shown His great love towards us in giving us His Son to die for our sins. If they had no relationship then the whole passage in John 3:16 has no real meaning. God certainly demonstrates He is a loving God in many different ways. We could begin with the mass of scripture to prove this and then shift to the creation which is delicately fine tuned in thousands of ways which point to a loving God. However, my specific point was to demonstrate that the supreme example of The Father's love for us was that He gave His Only Begotten Son. The Son demonstrated His love above all else in that He gave His life for His friends. This is the Father and the Son, the first and second person of the Godhead demonstrating love for lost humanity.

Christ was born of a woman. The sin nature is communicated through the man, not the woman. I heard a medical doctor speak on the birth of Jesus and in his lecture he noted that the blood type comes from the father or the male issue and not the woman. Just a side note. I would conclude that Jesus' blood was pure by that reason.

Dear Philologos, He did die, 'in the day' that he ate of that tree. Just a thought, but does not the bible say that one day is a thousand years to God? Adam did die in that day, for Adam did not live past one thousand years. You cannot say that Adam lived in the flesh and was dead in the Spirit. For these two scriptures indicate clearly that if God was to withdraw His breath, death would surely come:Job 27:3 (KJ)All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;Job 33:4 (KJ)The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.Job 34:14-15 (KJ)14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.Additionally, if what you say is true, then the following scripture would make no sense:Genesis 6:3 (KJ)And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.Obviously, God's spirit strives with man until his death. To die in the flesh is to die in the spirit, unless of course we are saved by Christ who gives life through resurrection.You can say that someone who is not saved is surely dead. Not because they are dead already, but because they will be without a doubt.Here is a question for you: What is the difference between the Spirit as described in the scriptures above that dwells in all men who have life, and the Holy Spirit that dwells only in men who are saved? This is a question that I have struggled with. Maybe you can offer a better answer than the one I have.In love,Blake

Woman like the man is fallen and has Adam's sinful nature. but Like the fact that the man determins the sex of the baby. so also the sinful fallen nature is communicated throuh the man. A baby born of the union of the man and woman even if it is a female is fallen. but One who is born of the woman alone evidntly does not have the fallen nature. Christ is born of a woman.This is an enormous presumption. Do you have biblical evidence for saying that sin is transmitted through the male line?

Dear Robert,If they had no relationship then the whole passage in John 3:16 has no real meaning.By saying that God gave Himself unto death in order that we may have eternal life strips the scripture of all meaning?If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself? God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love. God gave Himself to us. God loved us first. He gave Himself to us first, so that we would in turn give ourselves to Him. How can you not see this? Jesus is Lord. Jesus is the son of God and the son of man. What this means is that Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Am I the only one who believes this? In love,Blake

Hi Blake,What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself? This is where I see is the difference in what we are saying. For a Trinitarian it is both God the Father giving His Son, and God the Son giving Himself. So it is not either or, it is both. We would agree that God gave Himself; where we are not in agreement is that God gave His only begotten Son. You affirm God gave Himself, but not His Son as the second person of the Godhead, I affirm both. This is because I believe in both the Deity of the Father and Son. This allows me to appreciate the Love of the Father and the Son together, yet distinct. Hence, I can thank both God the Father for sending His Only Begotten Son and thank Christ for dying for my sin. Make sense?

Dear Robert,The unity of the persons is shown in saying, I and my Father are one, yet this is not one person, but one substance. In the scripture you gave, the Pharisees did not think that. They said, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." If they had thought Jesus was a seperate person from God, then why would they have accused Him of this? The argument you have presented about two witnesses almost has me persuaded. Even still, it says, "the testimony of two men is true."Even if you believe God is three seperate persons, I doubt you would say God is two men. (Although, when you say God is three persons, you are in fact saying God is three men. Look up the Hebrew word "Nephesh." In the above scripture, the greek word "Anthropos" is used where it says "man.")As we know God lived on earth as one man, and that man is Jesus Christ. And so, what could Jesus have meant by the above scriptures? How could the Father possibly act as a second testimony, the second man? How is that possible? This is my explanation.The testimony of Christ is that He is the Christ. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is God. Jesus said that His works testify of Him. "for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me,"Obviously, His works testify to being God. What else does? Revelation 20:4 (NLT)Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.I will take this to the Lord and pray over this some more. I await the day we all come into agreement. In love,Blake

If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself?God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love. God gave Himself to us. I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.

I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.Hi Ron, I agree with you, seeing someone you love go through pain is much much worse than going through the pain yourself, let alone losing them.The Father and the Holy Spirit love the Son with a greater love than anyone can imagine, and it is amazing to think that God now loves us with the same love. (John 17:23) :eek: :knockedout:

Dear Philologos,I think perhaps Blake, that you have never lost a son.I can't say that I have. Although, I have lost someone I loved deeply. It is really quite silly to argue over what is a greater act of love. Whether either one is greater, we cannot know God's love until we have the Spirit living inside of us. And so, it is really a mute point which is greater. What matters most is that we know in our heart that God loves us, because Christ lives in our heart.All that I was trying to establish is that in love, we give ourselves to our object of love. To give anything seperate from us is to express that initial giving of ourselves. In love,Blake

Hi Blake,Even if you believe God is three seperate persons, I doubt you would say God is two men. (Although, when you say God is three persons, you are in fact saying God is three men. Look up the Hebrew word "Nephesh." In the above scripture, the greek word "Anthropos" is used where it says "man.")I understand that. Yet, keep in mind this is not my appeal it was Christ's. If I had it wrong it means He has it wrong. The passage does not specifically say 'men'. Here He made the appeal to Deuteronomy 19:15b:...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. He had the witness of Himself and also He appealed to the miracles that were taking place by the Finger of God, which is a metaphor for the Dunamis of God. This is stacking up the Father's testimony. He also was appealing to the voice from Heaven which the Disciples heard when they were with Him in the Holy Mount. This is why Peter writes: For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (II Peter 1:16, 17)This is Peter's testimony to the majesty of Christ in that he appeals to the voice of God the Father from Heaven as authoritative. This, to the Hebrews was known as a 'bath kol' and was authoritative until the days of the Rabbi's. These are clear testimonies that solidify our belief in the Deity of Christ. Hence, to blur the Father and Son is to eradicate the testimony of the Father and call into question Christ's deity as it is established in part by the Father's testimony.

You cannot say that Adam lived in the flesh and was dead in the Spirit. For these two scriptures indicate clearly that if God was to withdraw His breath, death would surely come:We have to distinguish between the spirit of man which is the product of the breath of God in creation (Genesis 2) and the Spirit of God Himself. Man has a spirit. Man's spirit is not God.Zechariah tells us that "God streached forth the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth and formed the spirit of man within him." All acts of creation.Romans 8:16 says, "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God," clearly distinguishing our spirit from the Divine Spirit.When God created Adam he was placed before the Tree of Life. Adam had a human spirit which is akin to God and created by God to contain God. But Adam never ate of the Tree of LIfe which speaks of the Eternal Life of God.Adam never had God within him. Adam never had the divine LIfe. He had only the created human life. In choosing to eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, Adam chose the way of independance. His spirit died and he was barred from eating the tree of Life (Genesis 3:22-24)Fallen man has a spirit but it is dead and separated from the Life of God. Man's spirit is dead to God. IT is for all practical purposes disfunctional. MAn lives by his fallen soul life. HIs mind, will, and emothions which are enslaved to his fallen flesh. This is the condition of man.Men aren't even aware of thier spirit till the Spirit of God broods upon the surface of the Deep and through the Gospel, and through Christ's redemption, the Spirit quickens, enlivens, and regenerates our fallen dead spirit and then indwells it as the Tree of Life bringing the Life of God into us. A condition Adam never knew.Graftedbranch

Dear Robert and everyone,Hence, I can thank both God the Father for sending His Only Begotten Son and thank Christ for dying for my sin. It does make sense. In my mind, though you seem to have a different perspective, you believe in three Gods. I believe that Jesus is the father, and thus, the God I worship is the very one who died for my sins. When I reach Heaven, I will not be bowing down to one God, and then turning to bow to another. I will bow down to one God, whom will be God over all, and be all in all. The name of this one God is Jesus Christ. but, what I believe you are confusing here is 'substance' and 'person'.There is no confusion here. To say God is three persons and one substance is an impossibility. A person is one of an individual substance. How is it then possible to have a God who is three individual substances, and one substance? There is no biblical basis for saying God is three persons. The word "person" comes from the Latin word "persona." If you accept that God is three "personas" or three personalities, then you are agreeing with modalism. You are saying God has three faces. If you say God is three "persons" but not three "personas", then you are saying that God is three individuals, which means individual substance. Humans are called persons because each human has an individual substance called a "soul." To say God is three persons is to say that God is three Gods who share one _____________. You can't say one body, for if you say body then you are saying God has three faces. You can't say they share one essence, for that is saying God is like a council of three people who share one mission. How is it possible that God can be three seperate persons in one substance? Your reply to this was to say that this is the great mystery of the trinity. It is not a mystery. It is just not true. The great mystery of our faith as established in 1 Tim 3:16 is simple: How is it possible that God came to earth as a man, died, and was resurrected? The trinity attempts to answer this great mystery by seperating God into three persons. I cannot accept this proposition when I know the truth: Jesus is Lord. More specifically, Jesus is my Lord. He is my God. He is my Father. He is my everything. Jesus is my root, and I am His branch. Jesus is my Shepard, and I am one of His sheep. Jesus is my Redeemer. Jesus is my Savior. Jesus is my King. Jesus is Judge. Jesus is the alpha and omega. Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. Jesus is the great Counselor. Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. Jesus Christ lives inside of me, directs my path, watches over me, gives me life, and cares for my needs. Jesus is my everything. I have devoted and given my entire life to Him. I have left nothing for myself. Jesus is the express image of God, and to worship Jesus, and to pray to Jesus, is to pray to God. It is so very important that people know that they need to pray to Jesus. For there is no other name in Heaven or on earth by which a person may be saved. There are so many people lost people out there that do not know the true God, Jesus Christ, because they think Jesus is seperate from the Father. Every night they pray to the father, without knowing that it is Jesus who can save them. They do not know that we cannot call God our father, until we know Jesus. Anyone who does not know Jesus is an enemy of God. My mother is a person who was vicitim to this mentality. For so long she knew the gospel, and she knew of Jesus. However, she never prayed to Jesus. Three weeks ago, she called out to Jesus for the first time in her life. She called out broken and humbled crying to Christ for help. And this He did. Now, my mother who suffered immensely at the hands of the Devil for so many years, has been saved. Praise the Lord!!! It brings tears to my eyes everytime I think of it. The only reason she was never saved is because she never prayed to Jesus. She never called out to Jesus. Why would she? Jesus is a seperate person from the father.I held the same story. The only thing that kept me from coming to Christ was the lie that Jesus is not God. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the one whom we should pray to or worship. Jesus is not the one who saves us, it is the Father. This is wrong. There is power in the name of Jesus Christ. It is in the name of Christ that all good works are done. We are called Christians. We have the great privledge of being called by God's name. I cannot be a part of the lie that God is three seperate persons. God is not. He is one person. The Lord is Jesus Christ. I do not wish to be standing before God in Heaven trying to explain to Him how the trinity seemed to make sense to me, even though I knew it was not true. I do not want the blood of many to be on my hands for spreading such lies. I am sorry, my brothers, but I cannot agree with you. I would like to be united with you on this, but I cannot. I love you just the same, and I believe God is with each of you. I pray that though we may not be united in doctrine, that we may be united in love, overlooking each other's faults, and realizing that we are all one under Christ.May Christ direct our paths,In love,Blake

Dear Graftedbranch,We have to distinguish between the spirit of man which is the product of the breath of God in creation (Genesis 2) and the Spirit of God Himself. Man has a spirit. Man's spirit is not God.This is the answer I had as well. Thank you,Blake

Hi Blake,What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus? Did not Steven do such as he was being stoned to death?And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Acts 7:59)There are some misconceptions at the foundation, but I'm not sure what they all are. I appreciate your humility towards us in this conversation. I am bewildered that such a demonstration of scripture has been handily written off. It seems you are locked into a mindset that will not allow you to believe God exists as a Trinity no matter how much evidence is leveled. Something seems to be telling you it is a lie, and I'm not sure what that would be. I have greatly wondered at how deeply this fixation against the Trinity exists. The whole idea of Trinity seems to be 'ruled out' in spite of the evidence. It is off the table and branded as a 'lie'. What has done this? It would be interesting to know more about your background if you wanted to share it as I am by no means worn out in this conversation.

What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus? Did not Steven do such as he was being stoned to death?Surely we pray to the Lord Jesus. We are saved by calling on His Name. We are also saved daily from our sins, self, satan, and the world by calling on Him all the time.He is our indwelling Lord and Saviour. He is not only on the throne in His resurrected body of flesh and bones, but He is within us as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45.) We call on Him recognizing that we are in Him and He is in us. And that He indwells us in our regenerated spirit. It is in calling on Him that His life flows within us and transforms us.Even when we come to the Bible we need to call on the Lord acknowleging our dependance on Him and His availability within us as the Spirit, that through the word we are sanctified and something of God in Christ is communicated into us.I enjoyed this word this morning in my daily devotional:"By taking the Word in this way, we have the clear conviction that something of the Lord has been wrought into us. This is not the mere knowledge... It is the reality of the Triune God living, moving, working, and separating us. Every morning we can touch the living Word and have the divine reality infused into our being. In this way the Triune God is transfused into us." He is in our spirit but He desires to spread Himself into our soul and to sanctify us wholy with His Divine Life.______Paul in Colosians 1:25,26, tells us that "Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me to complete the Word of God, The mystery, hidden from the ages... Which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory"The completing of the Word of God is the revelation of this Mystery hidden from the ages. And this completing Word is concerning "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"The indwelling Christ is the consumation and completion of the Gospel. And it is our enjoyment of and experience of this Christ who is within us that is the core of all the epistles to the churches which are the local expressions of the body of Christ.This is the heart and completion of the gospel, the Word of God. We should practice to call on Him all the time. When we call, "Lord Jesus", we get the Person. He is within us and He responds within us when we call on His Name.Graftedbranch

Dear Robert,What has done this?My brother, the answer is Christ. I know you probably don't believe me, and that is okay. I do not doubt that you belong to Christ, and that you are my brother. However, because we are brothers, it does bother me that we disagree and I have asked Christ that we all should agree. However, He will not let me accept the trinity. What can I do but resign this to Him? We are His sheep, and while we don't always understand His ways, He is our shepard. I will do what He asks, and if I should err, I trust that He steer me right again.It would be interesting to know more about your background if you wanted to share it as I am by no means worn out in this conversation. Ask me anything, and I will tell. You may read my testimony in the "Miracles that follow the plow" section.I am bewildered that such a demonstration of scripture has been handily written off.I hope you don't mean to say that I am writing off scripture, as though I am not accepting the truth therein. For that I assure you is not the case. Have I not shown you everything I have said to be true with scripture? By what in scripture am I dismissing?What gives you the impression that we do not pray to Jesus?I did not think that you do not pray to Jesus. I don't think believing in the Trinity necessarily keeps a person from coming to Jesus, or interrupts thier relationship. It really doesn't matter what we think about God, for that is not where our belief lies anyway. What matters is what is in our heart. Many times we may think we know what we believe, but it really is not shown to be true until we are placed in extreme circumstances. For example, when Jesus returns, some will say, "Lord, Lord" and He will reply, "I do not know you." These people may say they believe and even think that they do, but it is not truly what is in thier heart. I do believe persecution is a good indicator of this, for anyone willing to suffer for Christ, or willing to die for Christ, is truly one who believes by heart. What I mean by this is that there are many people who are lost that refuse to pray to Jesus because they don't believe He is God. The Trinity says Jesus is God, but still claims that Jesus is a seperate person from God. If a person who accepts the trinity as being true never prays to Jesus because they believe that Jesus is seperate from the Father, then how could that person be saved? I have heard many people say they are Christian, but also say that it is wrong to pray to Jesus. They say, "Jesus is not the Father. Jesus said specifically in the model prayer to pray like this, 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.'" If Jesus is not the Father, then this one prayer is completely changed. It suggests that we are not supposed to pray to Jesus, but rather, the Father who is a seperate person. On top of that, what is the name of the Father? How do we hallow it if we don't know it? The truth is that Jesus is the Father. We are calling God our Father because it is an expression of intimacy and honor, and because we are born of Him. We were born of Adam, but now we are born of Christ, the second Adam. We then say, "hallowed be thy name," because we are saying, "Honor be to the name of God." The name of God is Jesus Christ. It is only name under Heaven by which people can be saved. By saying "hallowed be they name", we are showing our devotion to Christ, and giving honor to His name. We are saying that we want Christ to have the glory and honor that God should have.I know there exists a trinity in God. But that trinity is not three persons. The trinity of God is this: God, His Word, and His Wisdom. These are not three seperate persons, and they are not seperate in any way. They are not modes or faces of God. They are not parts of God. They are ___________. This is the mystery. There is no way for us to understand exactly what the distinction each of these are in relation to God, except to trust God when He says that He is one. We cannot explain how it is possible that the Word, who was God, was able to come to earth in flesh and blood and die. All we can do is trust in what we know to be true: Jesus is God and man.We know Christ came to earth as a man for that is the testimony of the bible. It has also been proven by other historical documents. However, for us to believe Jesus Christ is Lord takes a leap of faith. We have to cry out to Him. Once Christ saves us, then we know without a doubt He is Lord. We then become a testimony to Christ because we share in His death on the cross. (This I believe is what Jesus meant by saying He has the testimony of the Father for the Father chose each one of us. He especially chose the matyrs whose blood was spilled for Christ, to be His special testimony.) Anyway, my heart cries for all the lost souls who fail to come to Christ because of all the lies of the Devil. My heart cries for the division in the body of Christ due to the lies of the Devil. I eagerly await the day of Christ's return and we are united as one with Him. Thank you Robert, also, for your humility in our discussions. In love,Blake

Blake, I asked you some questions a while back but I don't think you really tried to answer them, you posted a post discussing what a person is etc. when none of my questions mentioned the word person.Here they are again:1. Do you believe God is one?2. Do you believe God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?3. If yes to the above question do you believe that the Father speaks to the Son, the Father speaks to the Holy Spirit, the Son speaks to the Holy Spirit, and vica-versa?4. If yes to the above question do you believe that God is talking to "Himself" (i.e. like we would) or that God is talking to God?5. Do you believe the Bible reveals that God is one and that God is also three in one?

I wish to demonstrate again the distinction between the Father and the Son within the Godhead from Hebrews 5 and the opening salutations of the epistles. First we read: And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. (Hebrews 5:4, 5)We read first concerning the priesthood after the ‘order’ of Melchezidek that as with the Aaronic priesthood, no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, so also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. In this case we have again the Father distinct from the Son bestowing the honor of the priesthood upon Him. If “no man taketh this honor unto Himself”, then it is impossible that one could be ‘self-appointed’ to the position of Great High priest. If the Son were also the Father then Christ had appointed Himself to the position. Moreover, we have encapsulated within this passage another truth concerning the Father speaking to the Son, “Thou art my Son”, which clearly identifies them as individual persons. It is important also to note that the opening salutations of Paul’s writings consistently demonstrate distinction between the Father and Son,Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Romans 1:1-3)Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (I Corinthians 1:1-3)Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (II Corinthians 1: 1,2)Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (Galatians 1:1)Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:1,2)Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:1,2)All of Paul’s letters contain a similar salutation. Peter takes this a step further including the Holy Spirit in his first epistle:Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (I Peter 1) In each of these occasions a clear distinction is made between the Father and Son as well as the Spirit in Peter's opening salutation. Paul's closing salutation to II Corinthians is particularly telling:The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.The Greek word for communion in this passage is Koinonia, which means 'fellowship.' That is particularly indicative of 'personhood'. One could not have fellowship with a 'force' or a 'power'.

If anything, it makes it that much more meaningful. What is a greater act of love, to give your son unto death who is a seperate person from you, or to give yourself? God gave Himself to us. This is the ultimate act of love.beenBlake 2005/11/16It is really quite silly to argue over what is a greater act of love. Whether either one is greater, we cannot know God's love until we have the Spirit living inside of us. And so, it is really a mute point which is greater. What matters most is that we know in our heart that God loves us, because Christ lives in our heart. beenBlake 2005/11/17which of these is your position, Blake?

The Greek word for communion in this passage is Koinonia, which means 'fellowship.' That is particularly indicative of 'personhood'. One could not have fellowship with a 'force' or a 'power'. “And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.” (Luke 5:10, KJVS)The word translated 'partners' here is 'koinOnos'. It is used in a variety of ways in the KJVMatt. 23:30 (KJVS) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Luke 5:10 (KJVS) And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men. 1Cor. 10:18 (KJVS) Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 1Cor. 10:20 (KJVS) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 2Cor. 1:7 (KJVS) And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 2Cor. 8:23 (KJVS) Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ. Philem. 17 (KJVS) If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself. Heb. 10:33 (KJVS) Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 1Pet. 5:1 (KJVS) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Pet. 1:4 (KJVS) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. but, as Robert says, each one of these demands a relationship which cannot exist without distinguishable identities. Prepositions 'demand' at least two parties, so does 'fellowship/partnership'.

I wish also to demonstrate the use of the definite articles along with 'name' being in the singular: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19) R. Reymond observes:"Jesus does not say: (1) ‘into the names [plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,’ or what is its virtual equivalent, (2) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit,’ as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. Nor does He say, (3) ‘into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,’ (omitting the three recurring articles), as if ‘the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ might be taken as merely three designations of a single person. What He does say is this: (4) ‘into the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,’ first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article."

Dear Philologos,which of these is your position, Blake?Oooo....a low blow below the belt. I thought you played fair. They are both my positions, I do not contract either one. God gave His son to us. God's son is God's Word. God's Word is God. They are inseperable. They are undividable. They are not individual.The reason Jesus is called God's son is because Jesus was born. He was born of a human mother. This does not make Him a seperate person from the Father. Rather, Jesus is the express image of the Father. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father. By Jesus dying on the cross, God gave Himself to us. Or you could say God gave His son. In our world, that is impossible. Your son is a seperate person from you. And yet, whatever your son does before a certain age, you are held accountable for. Even still, your son is a seperate person from you, and when the time of judgement comes, you will not be held accountable for your son's actions. Jesus, however, is not a seperate person from the Father. If you say He is, then you are saying He is a seperate God. Do you believe in one God or three? I will try to explain this better later,although, I don't suppose you would accept it anymore than I would accept what you are saying. In love,Blake

Dear Nasher,I am sorry my answer to your questions was unsatisfactory. I will answer them more forwardly.1. Yes 2. Yes3. Yes4. God is not talking to Himself as we would, and yet, God is not talking to a seperate God. 5. Yes, but not three persons in one substance.In love,Blake

Oooo....a low blow below the belt. I thought you played fair. They are both my positions, I do not contract either one. If holding you to account for the positions you publish is 'hitting below the belt', I can't see any point in anyone saying anything, or in anyone commenting on it. I was merely trying to point out that you were the one who began the comparison in the first place.

Dear Philologos,If holding you to account for the positions you publish is 'hitting below the belt', I can't see any point in anyone saying anything, or in anyone commenting on it.Everyone said I was taking things a little too personal, so I decided to lighten up a bit. It was meant to be a playful statement.I am not perfect, and I am sure if you held me accountable for every word I have said, you would probably find error and contradiction, especially in spelling and grammar. I am sure if I went back I could find error in my own words. In love,Blake

Dear Robert,(4) ‘into the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,’ first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single Name, and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article."This is very true, that a distinction has been made between the three. The doctrine of the trinity was begotten before all English translations of the bible, and so the bible may have been influenced by the doctrine of the trinity. And so, I wonder if the greek translation even included the articles? Whether it did or not, I would still accept what you have said. A distinction needs to be made the three. As I said, I do believe there is a trinity, however, the trinity is not three seperate persons. What I do wonder is not so much that the article "the" is used, but what is the name of the three? The word "name" is singular, meaning that it is but one name. Also, this name is highly important, for in order to baptize someone in this name, we must know it. So, what is "the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"?Thanks,In love,Blake

Way back on November 3 Ron said...OK? digest that and we'll move on to the 'subordination' question.We've been chewing on this for a while, in danger of turning into indigestion :-PCould we move on to explore subordination or perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? In Christ,Ron

Dear Robert,You have been highlighting some very good points. Yesterday, I cried out to the Lord saying, "Jesus, I know in my heart what is true, what you have told me. However, I cannot explain it to them. I am not smart enough. Please help me. Please help me to accept what they are saying or to explain it to them." Almost instantly, my prayer was answered. The Lord gave me the perfect explanation.Robert, I have not met you in person. I have not heard your voice. You are but a mystery to me. What I know of you is what you have written in this message board. It is your word.Your word is yours. It is not mine, or anyone else's. Before you wrote, your word was with you. It was face to face with you for it was in your head. Your word was not in your hands or in your feet. It had an exact place with you, one of intimacy and intelligence. Your word was with you where your wisdom also was. Your word was with you at a time before it was spoken. You word was you. Your word was your thought. It was always with you, although, it was not always expressed. Then one day, you brought forth your word. It was born. You sat down behind a computer and your word became a written word. It became the word that I would eventually read. Your word is not seperate from you. It is not a seperate person from you. However, your word has existed as a post. This post has gone out from you, born into the world of a message board, and in the universe of cyberspace, it expresses your exact person. Your word did not choose you. Rather, you chose your word. You chose it exactly, how you should want it expressed, and how it would represent you. Without you, your word is useless. Your word can do nothing apart from you. Your word is the expressed image of you. The person you are, I know only by your word. Your word bears your wisdom. Your word was begotten of letters and sentences that you chose. Your word is you.In this world of the message board, your word has been given everything you are, to be you, and to represent you in every way. Your word is you, and it is the only you I know. If I have seen your word, then I have seen you. Human words of course are frail and fallible, and so some of the above is not entirely true. However, God's Word is perfect. God's Word never changes. God has one Word. God's Word is Holy. God's Word is powerful. As John said, God's Word was God. When God created the heavens and earth, He spoke them into existence. God's word went forth from His mouth and created everything. God's Word bears God's Wisdom. God's Wisdom is the Holy Spirit. Human word is limited. God's Word became flesh.God's Word is not a seperate person from God. It is God. Although, we cannot say it the other way around. We cannot say God is God's Word. This says that God's Word is greater than God. This is impossible. His word cannot be greater than Him. God's Word is God. This means that God's Word represents God perfectly in everyway. So much so, that Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." God chose His Word. God loves His Word. We may cherish our word, and give it great weight. However, because we are imperfect, because we are limited in knowledge, our word is fallible. We may say one thing, and then say something else. We learn new things, and change over many years. God never changes, and His Word is the same throughout eternity.Isaiah 55:11 (KJ)So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. In love,Blake

Did Jesus say, Myself Myself why have you forsaken Me? Did the Father say this is Myself In Whom I am well pleased? Did the Holy Spirit land upon Himself as a dove? Yet God is one God. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

Dear Philip,Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?" Does the Holy Spirit live in you, or does Jesus? Did the Father save you, or did Jesus? Did Jesus forgive your sins, or did the Father? Do you worship Jesus or do you worship the Father? Do you pray to Jesus or do you pray to the Father? When Jesus lived on earth, everything He did was for our benefit. Jesus was God's Word. God's Word became flesh. Everything Jesus did was a way for God to speak to us. Through Jesus, God showed and demonstrated everything we are supposed to be. We are to follow Jesus. The Spirit of God dwells inside of you, just as it did Jesus. Does that make you God? No, it doesn't. It makes you a part of God. You are His child. However, Jesus was not just the child of God. Jesus is God. The Word was God. Psalms 22:1 - (NLT)For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be sung to the tune "Doe of the Dawn." My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me? Why do you remain so distant? Why do you ignore my cries for help?Notice the parallel of David speaking in the Psalms. Jesus is not a seperate person from God. He is God. Jesus is not entirely seperate from humanity either. Jesus was a man. Jesus is a person. He is the expressed person of God. In this way, Jesus is the reconciliation between us and God. I think it's significant that upon the baptism of Jesus, God said, "This is my son." We become God's children when we are baptized in the Spirit. Jesus did not need to be baptized. He was already God's son, He was already Holy. He was baptized for our benefit. To show and demonstrate what we are supposed to go through. Jesus did all things first. If you say Jesus is a seperate person, you are suggesting that Jesus needed the Father. Jesus is God, and so how is it He needs the Father? Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father. If Jesus is a seperate person, then would not Jesus be able to do things apart from the Father?Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is God's Word. In love,Blake

Quote; Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?" Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. I Phillip seek not my own will but the will of Jesus that is in me which God the Father has sent me.Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Does the Holy Spirit live in you, or does Jesus?Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Did the Father save you, or did Jesus? Jhn 10:9 I am the door: >>>by me

Quote; Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?" Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. I Phillip seek not my own will but the will of Jesus that is in me which God the Father has sent me.Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Does the Holy Spirit live in you, or does Jesus?Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Did the Father save you, or did Jesus? Jhn 10:9 I am the door: >>>by me

The second part of previous post.if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Did Jesus forgive your sins, or did the Father? Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgivenDo you worship Jesus or do you worship the Father? Do you pray to Jesus or do you pray to the Father? Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. When Jesus lived on earth, everything He did was for our benefit. Everything Jesus did on this earth was to obey the Father and please Him and Him only, that the Father might have son's in His house.Jesus was God's Word. God's Word became flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus was God and was the Word Himself."Everything Jesus did was a way for God to speak to us. Through Jesus, God showed and demonstrated everything we are supposed to be." With Christ in the believer, Jesus Himself showed who we really are. Christ in you the Hope of Glory.We are to follow Jesus. (We are to let Jesus be our life and we are His followers by His works in us, not by my works to follow him.)The Spirit of God dwells inside of you, (Amen:)just as it did Jesus. Does that make you God? (No, but a God but a son of God. Amen) No, it doesn't. It makes you a part of God. You are His child. However, Jesus was not just the child of God. Jesus is God. The Word was God. (The only Begotten Son)Psalms 22:1 - (NLT)For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be sung to the tune "Doe of the Dawn." My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me? Why do you remain so distant? Why do you ignore my cries for help?AndNotice the parallel of David speaking in the Psalms. Jesus is not a seperate person from God. He is God. Jesus is not entirely seperate from humanity either. Jesus was a man. Jesus is a person. He is the expressed person of God. In this way, Jesus is the reconciliation between us and God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.I think it's significant that upon the baptism of Jesus, God said, "This is my son." We become God's children when we are baptized in the Spirit. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, (The Body of Christ) whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.We have Christ baptized into us and we are baptized into Him, His death, Burial, resurrection and Assention for we are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ JesusEph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,Jesus did not need to be baptized. He was already God's son, He was already Holy. He was baptized for our benefit. To show and demonstrate what we are supposed to go through. Jesus did all things first. If you say Jesus is a seperate person, you are suggesting that Jesus needed the Father. Jesus is God, and so how is it He needs the Father? Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father. If Jesus is a seperate person, then would not Jesus be able to do things apart from the Father?Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is Life in the Believer, Jesus our spirit, or the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in you. The Holy Spirit our soul mind teacher of this Christ that is in us, the revealer of Christ and His Father.In Christ: Phillip

Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?" This was the exact moment that 'he who was rich, for our sakes, became poor'. His riches was his fellowship with His Father which He forfeited that we might know for ourselves.This 'cry of dereliction' is the moment of 'Christ becoming sin for us' and is a wonderful insight into the cost of our salvation. To present this verse as a proof that the Son has no discernable identity different to that of the Father is folly.

We cannot say God is God's Word. This says that God's Word is greater than God. This is impossible. His word cannot be greater than Him. God's Word is God.[underlining added]Blake, this doesn't make sense, you can't say God is not God's Word and then say God's Word is God!I would recommend reading Hebrews chapter 1, for me it's one of the best chapters in the bible!

Dear Nasher,Blake, this doesn't make sense, you can't say God is not God's Word and then say God's Word is God!Did you happen to read the parable given to Robert a few posts back explaining the Word?God's Word proceeds from His mouth. It goes out and does whatever He commands. It is not a seperate person from Him. It is His Word. God's Word is God. It does all that God commands. It represents Him exactly. However, God is not God's Word. For example, your post is you. It represents you exactly as you have spoken. I can say, Nasher's post is Nasher. However, I cannot say Nasher is his post. God did not proceed from God's Word. Rather, God's Word proceeded from God. Do you see the difference? In love,Blake

Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?"My point was to show that this scripture does not prove that Jesus was a seperate person from the Father. Did the Father speak back to His son? This scripture does mark the moment by which Jesus was seperated from the Father, when Christ became sin for us, as you said. If Jesus is God's Word as John says, then for three days until Jesus was resurrected, God was without His Word. Even if you believe in the trinity, this is a great mystery. How could Jesus who was Holy become sin? How could Jesus who was God die? How could God be seperated from His Word? In love,Blake

Hi Blake,Even if you believe in the trinity, this is a great mystery. How could Jesus who was Holy become sin? How could Jesus who was God die? How could God be seperated from His WordThese are questions that are impossible to answer apart from a Trinitarian view of God. This is why we have tried desperately to show the Biblical perspective because so much hinges on it.

Dear Christinyou,Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is God's Word.Yes! Yes! Yes! Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is not a seperate person from the Father. Jesus is God's Word. He is not seperate. Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Adam and the angels were called sons of God. Israel was called the firstborn son of God. Why is Jesus called the only begotten son of God? Jesus is the only one who was begotten of God. Everything else was created. Jesus is the only one who is God. Jesus is God's Word. The Word was God. Don't you see? The Word is not seperate. The Word is not a seperate person. You have a body made up of trillions of cells. Which cell is you? Which is not? Some of those cells make up an arm. If you were to detach your arm and send it out, would your arm be a seperate person from you? Jesus is not a seperate person. Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is God. Jesus and the Father are one. In love,Blake

Dear Robert,These are questions that are impossible to answer apart from a Trinitarian view of God. The Trinity is one attempt to explain this mystery, as was Modalism and all the other rejected heresies. Paul said in 1 Tim 3:16 that this was the great mystery of our faith. Shouldn't it remain a mystery? I have gone around and asked several of my friends about the Trinity and what they thought of it. They all said they believed it. I then dug deeper to try and understand what they thought it was. Most people I met actually believed the Trinity was modalism. Most people picture one God with three personalities. The trinity is a widely accepted doctrine, but other than the established orthodoxed trinity, it is also a misunderstood doctrine. Many people don't even know what they believe. When I explained to them Orthodox Trinity, and what it means, they did not agree with it. Everyone seems to have a different perspective of what the Trinity is or what it means.We know a trinity does exist within God. We know that there is God, God's Word, and God's Spirit. However, what exactly is the relationship of the three? If we say they are three individuals, then we imagine three individual people facing each other. If we say they are three personalities, then we imagine one God with three faces. To me, both of these seem wrong. When I picture God, I picture one person with two hands. One hand is God's Word. The other Hand is God's Spirit. God has used His hands to create heaven and earth. He brought them forth and controlled thier every action. They have worked in unison, inseperable from God and inseperable from each other. They share in everything and all that God is. Even this metaphor fails, however, because it seperates God into regions. We can look at a person and say, "That region is his hand, that region is his arm, that region is his face." God, however, is beyond space and time. He doesn't have regions. If we try to visualize the trinity or define it in anyway, we have already done it great harm. So, even my image is wrong.I believe God is one, and we should always look upon Him as one, not just one God, but the one God. God has placed so much emphasis on this. His greatest command begins, "The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deut 6:4)If we believe God is the one God, and we believe Jesus is God, then we believe Jesus is the one God. I don't look at my best friend as though He were just a clump of cells, or just a bunch of parts held together by flesh. I look at Him as one person, of whom I love, and of whom is my best friend. Jesus is my best friend. He is my Lord and God. He is my Father. Calling Jesus my Father shows the intimacy I have with Jesus. He is family. Calling Jesus my Father shows His authority over me. If I were to call Jesus my brother, then He would be my equal. Jesus is not my equal. He is my God. Calling Jesus my Father shows that I am owned by Him. I belong to Jesus. I am His. Jesus is my Spiritual Father for I have been born again into His Spirit. The Spirit of Christ lives in me, and it is by His Spirit that I am able to say that I am His. The trinity says that Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I agree that the Father is not Jesus. (God is not God's Word) However, Jesus is the Father. (God's Word is God). More specifically, Jesus is my Father.This is why we have tried desperately to show the Biblical perspective because so much hinges on it.In our day and age, so much does hinge on the bible. I agree. I have also tried desperately to show the biblical perspective.However, the biblical perspective is the perspective of whoever is reading the bible. So much depends on Christ. We need Christ to lead us into truth, and must trust in Christ for all things. It all hinges on faith. We are not saved by the bible, or even faith in the bible. We are saved by faith in Christ. We believe the bible. We believe in Christ. There is a difference here between those two statements. We believe what the bible says for it is the testimony of Christ as provided by the Spirit through men. We believe in Jesus. We believe not just in what He says, we believe in Him. We believe Jesus is the Christ. In love,Blake

I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one. In my part of spirit, Christ is become my life by His Spirit being birthed in me by the Father, just like Mary. In my Soul, the Holy Spirit given unto me at the request of Jesus of Nazareth, the man to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, given by the Father. My Body will be birthed again on resurrection morning, when corruption will put on incorruption. We are already born again of Spirit and Water, which is Jesus Christ Himself the Spirit of Christ in us and the washing of water with the Word which is also Christ Himself. The washing is the Work of the Holy Spirit in our soul mind to teach each child of God who, what, where and why this Spirit of Christ is born again in the believer. He the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth about this subject, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. John 15:8-9 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.John 15:16-17 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Not His beginning in Bethlehem but His beginning before the foundation of the World. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Three part man, but one. Three part God, but One. God must be three parts of His Plan from the beginning or the Plan could not be accomplished. God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same time, I think not, God the Father in heaven and God the Son in Spirit One with Him, but on the Cross separate and forsaken for our sake, that we might see how what sin has done to us and how costly it is, and He is the only One who can work in us to bring about His Perfect Plan, Christ as our Life. Who's Spirit did He give up? Who's Body died on the Cross? Who Had the Power to give it or take it up again, but still one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God and He created us Body, Soul and Spirit, how else could He relate to us except In Himself, One God, showing us exactly what He has done by Using The Trinity that we might understand who He is and How He relates to us, His own creation.Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.This in itself is the Trinity at work in us.In Christ: Phillip

Dear Philip,I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one.Are you one person or three persons? Which one of these three is you: your body, your Soul, or your Spirit? God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same timeIt must be, or else you are speaking of more than one God. Is God one or is He three? You cannot say God is one and three. How does that make sense? There is either one God, or three Gods. There is either one person or three persons. Do you know anyone who is three persons in one person? 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJ)And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."God in Heaven and God on the cross at the same time" This is the great mystery of our faith. Who can explain it? With human wisdom, this is impossible. We cannot fathom such a thing. This has been intentionally made a mystery to us so that we may believe it by faith. Who could ever accept that Jesus is God? It confounds all reason and logic. It is a mystery. How could God come down from Heaven and live on earth as a man? How could God die and then be resurrected? 1 Corinthians 1:20 (NLT)20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. 22 God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense. God must be three parts of His Plan from the beginning could not be accomplished. God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same time, I think not, God the Father in heaven and God the Son in Spirit One with Him, but on the Cross separate and forsaken for our sake. Who's Spirit did He give up.That my friend is the power of God. Matthew 19:26 (NLT)Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."The Lord our God is one Lord! Jesus is Lord!In love,Blake

Dear Phillip,I do not deny that there exists a mysterious trinity within God. Simply, it is this: God, God's Word, and God's Spirit.However, Orthodox Trinity claims that God is "three persons in one substance." Do you believe this? If what you say is true: you are indeed "Body, Soul and Spirit," a trinity, then would it be correct for me to say that you are three persons in one? This is where I find error. God is not three persons, He is one person, just as you are one person.In love,Blake

It must be, or else you are speaking of more than one God. Is God one or is He three? You cannot say God is one and three. How does that make sense? There is either one God, or three Gods. There is either one person or three persons. Do you know anyone who is three persons in one person?I think you need to have a clear understanding of the orthodox definition of Trinity before you can say it is contradictory or that it doesn't fit Scripture.The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is referred to as the Word in John 1. That's our view. Our view is not that the Father is the same as the Son. Our view is that the Father is not the Son. Our view is that the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.Now you say that doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "make sense"? Do you mean it's irrational? There is nothing contradictory by the laws of reason in the Trinity. Absolutely not. Now it may not make sense because you have a hard time picturing this. Can you picture what love looks like or what justice looks like? No, yet you probably have good reason to believe love and justice are real. Love and justice may manisfest themselves in actions that can be seen but they are not physical in themselves and indeed no accurate physical "sense" of them can even be imagined.It's not a liability that you can't picture the Trinity. It's not "sensible" in that way. But this tells you nothing about the truth of the doctrine. That question is answered by a different means: Does God’s own self-revelation give us reason to believe that the doctrine of the Trinity, classically understood, is an accurate and true description, as far as it goes, of God’s nature? The answer to that is clearly yes.In Christ,Ron

I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one.No! God is not made up of 'parts'.

I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one.If you like, God is three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet one. These are the parts of God I was referring to. If you don't like the word part then lets make it, God is three reflections of Himself manifest as the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, that our finite minds might understand what God is saying. God must start with what He has, we are finite and He is infinite and the Transition must be for us to become infinite as He is. Christ in you, The Holy Spirit also in you as the revealer of the Christ that is in us, these are the infinite manifestations of The God Head. Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto Me; Him shall ye hear. Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Then on resurrection morning the completion of the infinite. Notice we are already son's of God, spirit and soul.1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. In Christ: Phillip

Gentleman, God does not lie, and He says He is One God. I am not separating God, or making Him three Gods. I am simply saying God reveals Himself in us as three distinct operations of One God. If Jesus Christ is now my spirit, then He will never leave me. If the Holy Spirit is now my Comforter and Teacher and the Power and Revealer of this knowledge. If I now have a Father who birthed me, why is it so hard to believe that this still is one God. You must admit God can manifest Himself as it pleases Him, not to please our finite minds, but this is where He has chosen to allow us to KNOW Who and What He has done and is doing. He is making us son's of the One and only God that we have anything to do with. How can the son say why did you make me this way, not my will but your's be done in me as it pleases Him.In Christ: Phillip

"The counsel of Ron's" (We haven't used that in awhile) Thank you both.Can you picture what love looks like or what justice looks like? No, yet you probably have good reason to believe love and justice are real. Love and justice may manifest themselves in actions that can be seen but they are not physical in themselves and indeed no accurate physical "sense" of them can even be imagined.Well said, another, simililar...Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.The only suggestion that I could make here is to read and muse long in the book of John. It's been close to eight years now and am still just amazed... It seems to be a constant drawing back to. The reason for the mention here is that the Trinity will make more sense when you stop trying to 'figure it out' and is absorbed more than ... sought. And still will be a great wonder and awe, as it ought to be and is.

Hi Christinyou,Christ in you, The Holy Spirit also in you as the revealer of the Christ that is in us, these are the infinite manifestations of The God Head. Your use of 'parts' and 'manifestations' lends to a modalist view of God. Traditional orthodox Christianity views God as a Trinity, God in three persons. Manifestations of God lend also to the belief that God the Father became God the Son became God the Holy Spirit. This is not the Trinitarian view. God simultaneously exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (3 persons 1 substance).

Dear Ron,The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.I plead with you to read my other posts. If you say that God is three seperate personas, then you are claiming Modalism. That is not Orthodox Trinity. I will say this again, as I have countless times. There are two different perspectives that arose in the early Church as to what the definition of the "person" actually means. One definition held that God is three personas or three faces or three modes. This is Modalism and it was rejected by the early Church as heresy. The other definition held that God is three individuals, three selves, three consciousnesses. This is Orthodox Trinity. The definition of an individual as recognized by the early Church fathers is simply, "in-divide-able." It is the smallest part by which something can be divided. A person is an individual substance. Therefore, if you say God is three persons, then you are saying one of two things, depending on what you believe: 1) God is one being with three faces. He is one God with three personas. God is one substance, with three identities. Basically, God chooses to present Himself in three different modes depending on the situation. However, God cannot be both the Father and the Son at the same time. He is either one or the other. 2) God is one being and three persons. How this is possible, I do not know. However, this says that each identity in the trinity is an individual person. The son is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not the Son. However, the son is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each has an individual consciousness, an individual will, and an individual self. I reject both of these theories. The first strips Jesus Christ of the person of God. It says that God has three personas. God has one person and one nature and one identity. God is always the same. He never changes. God is good. God is love. These are His person and His nature. God is God. God did not come to earth and put on human flesh as a persona. The bible says that Jesus represents God exactly in every way. Jesus is the person of God. Jesus is the truth. He is not just one persona of God. Truth is one. It doesn't wear masks. Jesus is the truth. The second theories divides God into parts. It seperates Him into individuals substances. It says God has three minds and three wills. I cannot believe anyone would say God has three wills, but this is what it says. God has one nature and one will. His will is Holy and supreme. Sin is the defiance of God's will. Jesus was without sin. He was Holy. Jesus could only be Holy if He was God. Only God is good. How can anyone say God is one, and then say God can be divided into three persons? Have you ever met three persons in one? The only time that three persons come together to form one is when they form "us" which is a union. A council or a nation is three persons who form one. A marriage is a union where two people form one. Is God three beings unified to make one? If so, then the God you are describing is not one God, but three Gods that are unified to make one God. A person is a human being. The Hebrew word for "person" is "Nephesh." This word means, "soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion."When you say God is three persons, you are saying God is three selves, three souls, three lives, three minds, three beings. You are saying you believe in three Gods. If you say God is three persons, how can you say God is one? I have been told that this is the mystery of the Trinity. This is definitely not the great mystery. The mystery is not how could God be three persons. Rather, the mystery is how could God come to earth, live as a person, die as a person, and be resurrected to Heaven again? How could God be seperated from Himself? This is the great mystery which confounds the wise. The trinity attempts to solve this mystery. How could God be seperated from Himself? Orthodox trinity says, "because God is three persons." God is not three persons. He is one person. Jesus Christ is the expressed person of God. Jesus Christ is the image of God. Does God’s own self-revelation give us reason to believe that the doctrine of the Trinity, classically understood, is an accurate and true description, as far as it goes, of God’s nature?The bible in no way supports the doctrine of the Trinity that says God is three persons. The bible clearly indicates that God is one. The bible clearly establishes that Jesus is the image of God. The bible clearly establishes that Jesus is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit clearly indicates to all true believers that Jesus is God. The bible also clearly indicates that God existed as God the creator who created Heaven and Earth, as God the son who is the Word become flesh and concieved by the Holy Spirit, and God the Spirit who is Holy. Jesus Christ is the name God has chosen to glorify above all names. These three are one. They are inseperable. They cannot be divided. If they are divided in any way, then everything we believe is false. For God said that He would be the one to save His people and no other.(Isaiah 25:9; 33:22; 35:4; 43:11 Zechariah 9:16) He said that we should worship Him, and Him alone. He said He was a jealous God.(Exodus 20:3, 5; Deuteronomy 5:7,9; 6:13; 10:20; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 22:9) He said He would not give His glory to another. (Isaiah 42:8) He said He was the King of Israel and Holy one.(Isaiah 43:15) He said He is the first and the last. (Isaiah 44:6) There is only one who is good and that one is God. (Matthew 19:17. Mark 10:18)Zechariah 14:9 (KJ)And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.Jesus is Lord.I am sorry if you disagree with me. However, Orthodox Trinity is not a true and accurate description of God. It is man's attempt at explaining what God has kept a mystery. In love,Blake

Beenblake wrote;I plead with you to read my other posts. If you say that God is three seperate personas, then you are claiming Modalism. That is not Orthodox Trinity.I believe you still don't have a full understanding the orthodox position. I do not hold to modalism. We must have a clear understanding of the orthodox position before we can discuss contradiction. Again, here is what I wrote previously regarding Trinity;The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is referred to as the Word in John 1. That's our view. Our view is not that the Father is the same as the Son. Our view is that the Father is not the Son. Our view is that the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.Now here is a definition of Modalism that Ron (Philologos) gave us earlier in this thread, you can see that the definition I presented does not promote modalism;Your statement 'Jesus is God' would be accepted by modalists but they would not accept the idea that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AT THE SAME TIME. They are really saying that God is the Father, OR the Son, OR the Holy Spirit but is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit in communion. In this view there could be no 'communion'. The original proponents viewed the revelation of God almost as a 'one-man play' with God playing three characters; there could never be two characters on stage at the same time because there was only one 'in the cast'. Sabellius regarded the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as simply designations of three different phases under which the one divine 'essence' manifested itself.I have also written previously in this thread of the communication and love exhibited in Scripture between to persons of the Godhead as seen in John's gospel and in Genesis. As Ron pointed out, modalism doesn't allow this.In Christ,Ron

I believe you still don't have a full understanding the orthodox position. I do not hold to modalism. We must have a clear understanding of the orthodox position before we can discuss contradiction. Again, here is what I wrote previously regarding Trinity;I agree Ron, there is so much misconception flying around that it seems that the whole of the thread has become blurred.

Dear Ron,I believe you still don't have a full understanding the orthodox position."The Latin word persona was originally used to denote the mask worn by an actor.The precise Greek equivalent was prosopon, likewise used originally of the actor's mask and then of the character he represented, but the meaning of the word had not passed on, as had that of persona, to the general signification of individual. Consequently tres personae, tria prosopa, savoured of Sabellianism to the Greeks. On the other hand their word hypostasis, from hypo-histemi, was taken to correspond to the Latin substantia, from sub-stare. Tres hypostases therefore appeared to conflict with the Nicaean doctrine of unity of substance in the Trinity. This difference was a main cause of the Antiochene schism of the fourth century (see MELETIUS OF ANTIOCH). Eventually in the West, it was recognized that the true equivalent of hypostasis was not substantia but subsistentia, and in the East that to understand prosopon in the sense of the Latin persona precluded the possibility of a Sabellian interpretation. By the First Council of Constantinople, therefore, it was recognized that the words hypostasis, prosopon, and persona were equally applicable to the three Divine realities."--from "The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI"What is the Trinity?...." There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness."--from CARM (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm)ModalismThe error that there is only one person in the Godhead who manifests himself in three forms or manners: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.--from CARM (http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_l-o.htm)The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is referred to as the Word in John 1. That's our view. Our view is not that the Father is the same as the Son. Our view is that the Father is not the Son. Our view is that the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.Yes, indeed, this is near Orthodox Trinity, however, the use of the word "persona" is dangerously bordering Modalism. Is God one person with three personas? Or is God three persons of whom are three individuals? Depending on how you define "person" you have estblished several doctrines.But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.Please explain what exactly you mean by this. How can they all be one God, and yet three persons? What are you saying exactly by this?In love,Blake

I will say this again, as I have countless times. There are two different perspectives that arose in the early Church as to what the definition of the "person" actually means. One definition held that God is three personas or three faces or three modes. This is Modalism and it was rejected by the early Church as heresy. The other definition held that God is three individuals, three selves, three consciousnesses. This is Orthodox Trinity. Just to make absolutely clear... you reject both of these options, yes?"The Latin word persona was originally used to denote the mask worn by an actor.The precise Greek equivalent was prosopon, likewise used originally of the actor's mask and then of the character he represented, but the meaning of the word had not passed on, as had that of persona, to the general signification of individual.We are not conducting this discussion during the time of the 'early church' where the process of definition was still a 'work in progress'. No-one in modern usage uses the word 'person' to mean a 'face' , nor do bible students. "persona non grata" does not mean your 'face' is not welcome, it means 'you' are not welcome. You cannot take a snap-shot of a word as it was used in the 6th century and ignore its continuing development.I think, perhaps, your scientific background is getting in the way here. Language does not provide a fixed value for 'x'. Language, and particularly Bible and theological words do not exist by nature of their dictionary definitions but by nature of their histories.The word 'prosOpon' does indeed mean face but that is not always the way it is used. eg“And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.” (Matt. 22:16, KJVS) Here the word obviously means much more that the eyes, nose and mouth of people. It stands for them as a whole; ie as the KJV (and almost every other version I have checked) has the word 'person'. Here's a whole list of occasions where 'prosOpon' has not been translated with the word face; (Acts 3:13,19; 5:41; 13:24; 2Cor. 1:11; 2:10; 5:12; 8:24; 10:1,7; Gal. 2:6; 2Th. 1:9; Heb. 9:24; James 1:11; Jude 1:16) I do recommend that you look up these references. It will make it crystal clear that the word 'prosOpon' cannot always be translated by the word 'face'.The Hebrew equivalent for 'prosOpon' is 'panim' which is used some 2125 times in the OT but is translated as 'face' only 391 times. It became the preposition meaning 'before' or 'in the presence of'.Depending on how you define "person" you have estblished several doctrines.Precisely, and the evolution of the word 'person' in the theology of Trinity does not mean 'face'.Please explain what exactly you mean by this. How can they all be one God, and yet three persons? What are you saying exactly by this?Explain God? It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son. Similarly, the Son receives the communication as being conscious that He is not the 'individual' who sent it. This is distinct and distinguishableidentity, and this is the essence of the word 'person' as we now use it.The Son promised 'another comforter'. Perhaps you know that Bible Greek has two words for another; Heteros and allos. Heteros, as in heterosexual, means another of a different kind. allos, however, mean another of the same kind, as in the word 'parallel' which means 'another of the same kind by the side'. The Holy Spirit has captured this sameness and difference in a single word. The whole section in which the Son refers to the coming of the Spirit reveals the wonder of the Triune God.I know you are struggling with the way we are trying to express things beyond our comprehension, but Trinitarian theology is not trying to produce the last word on the nature of God. It is simply trying to make a statement which is true to all the given data. (and trying to prevent the making of statements which are not true to the data available) Part of this data reveals distinct centres of consciousness within the Father and within the Son and within the Spirit. The nearest word of modern usage we can find to express this is 'person'. The given data reveals that the hypothesis of personhood is true to that data. It also shows that it is not true to the notion of a tripartite being in which each of the beings is actually indistinguishably the same being.You have tried to illustrate your view by regarding Christ as the 'Word of the Father' and identifiably not a separate being but a function of the Father. This will not do. If the Son is equal with the Father, He must be equal in every sense and not a function or expression of the Father. No one would confuse 'my word' with 'me'. 'my word' is 'mine' but it is not 'me'. It is my creation and is capable of existing when I (me) is no more.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:God the Father's glory is Christ and the Light and Life thereof. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].The Son came to reveal the Father, Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?The transition of us having to hide in the cleft of the rock to keep the Glory of God the Father from destroying us, came through the Son who was made in the image of the Father that we might look upon God the Son and be saved. How do we see the Son? Jesus is not here for us to see. The Holy Spirit reveals Him to us and when we believe, Jesus and His Father come and make Their abode with us. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. 2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. It is no longer Jesus of Nazareth we see, but we see Him by the Holy Spirit and when He is come in us we know as we are known.1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.Is He come, are we face to face with Him and learning to know Him, are we one with Christ are we one with the Father? Yes a thousand times yes and yes forever. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.How do we know the Son of God, by God the Holy Spirit, are we in The Son of God? Yes, He has been born again from above In our spirit which is now His Spirit. Hearts if you please. We see this at work in the above scripture All Three Person's of the God Head are at work to reveal This True God and eternal life.Back and forth and up and down and sideways or any other way, God has chosen to reveal Himself as Father, as Son and as the Holy Spirit. We can slice it, dice it, change it, keep it or do anything with it we want, but God is God and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and this is How He has chosen to deal with His Creation Man.In Christ: Phillip

We've been chewing on this for a while, in danger of turning into indigestion :-)Could we move on to explore subordination or perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? Ron,I didn't miss this. :-) It's just that unless we have clear ground on the nature of co-equal and co-substantial 'subordination' is going to mean inferiority and some kind of graded trinity. If the Son's submssion is not the submission of a person to another person, the whole concept of subordination is going to be degraded. btw I opted for my sign off of 'Ron B' some time ago so as not to make Ron-inthelight 'serve with my sins'. ;-)

If the Son's submssion is not the submission of a person to another person, the whole concept of subordination is going to be degraded.Yes of course, you are ahead of me as usual. As I was pondering this thread since that post I made about moving on to the topic of subordination, I realized that some foundational matters need to be cleared up first, hence my more recent posts.In Christ,Ron (the lesser ;-))

Dear Ron,Precisely, and the evolution of the word 'person' in the theology of Trinity does not mean 'face'.I know. I have been trying to establish that in the evolution of the word, many different doctrines have arisen depending on the definition of "person" and how it is percieved.It is simply trying to make a statement which is true to all the given data. I know. Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God.  When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals.  But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings.  God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence.  God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.---taken from CARM (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm)One of my points is this: Why are we trying to use an imperfect description to describe a perfect God? No one would confuse 'my word' with 'me'. 'my word' is 'mine' but it is not 'me'. It is my creation and is capable of existing when I (me) is no more.Your word is not your creation. Your creation is the arrangment of letters to form words and sentences within a particular media. For instance, the post is your creation. Your word, however, is embodied in the post. Your word is capable of existing seperate from you, so long as it exists within another medium. When you write, your word proceeds from you and becomes ink and paper. The ink and paper are not you, but your word is you. Of course, God's Word is different from human word. It is more than a function. God's Word and God's Wisdom are more than functions and expressions of God. They are God. When God speaks, things happen. God spoke the earth into existence. God spoke, His word proceeded from His mouth, and through the Word of God, the earth was created. You have tried to illustrate your view by regarding Christ as the 'Word of the Father' I wonder, when John says "God's Word," do you think it is the Word of the Godhead, or the Word of the Father? Also, in the bible where it says, "God", do you think it is referring to the Godhead or only the Father? I ask because Jesus is the son of God. Does this make Him the son of the Father? Or does this make Him the son of the Godhead?It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son.Can you show me where in scripture this is?The Son promised 'another comforter'. Who would come in the name of son, just as Jesus came in the name of the Father. In your definition, what does it mean to come "in the name of"?The word "another" is not always used in application with the word person. Just because Jesus said, "another Comforter" does not make the Holy Spirit another person. It does establish a distinction, but to what degree, we do not know. I am curious, the angels often appeared on earth as men. Do you think that the angels are persons? Are demons persons? (I guess this means to ask, are all spirits persons?)In love,Blake

Hi Blake,Why are we trying to use an imperfect description to describe a perfect God? This is because our language is limited in how it can describe biblical concepts. The thing we have to be faithful to is the revelation of God presented in the scriptures. The word 'person' is the best we have to work with as it pertains to distinguishing between the persons of the Godhead. Yet, it seems to me that you are not wrestling as much with the word 'person' as you are the fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not the same 'person'. So, no matter what word we could use- it would be rejected based on the implications of that word. In other words, if we had a more accurate word to use it would only refine your rejection of the concept. Of course, God's Word is different from human word. It is more than a function. God's Word and God's Wisdom are more than functions and expressions of God. They are God. I meant to ask this before as it really puzzles me, is why you wish to refer to God as Himself, Word and Wisdom when the New Testament revelation is clear that God manifested Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28). We have demonstrated several passages that clearly demonstrate this. We could cite many more. Would it not be best to acknowledge the full revelation of the New Testament without cutting back the truths until it fit into a nice understandable package? We have to allow the scripture to say what they say. We are not at liberty to impose upon the Scripture what we 'want' it to say. What I mean is, as Trinitarians we do not look at the scripture and try to justify the doctrine; we look at the scriptures and use 'Trinity' as the best explaination for what is plainly obvious. We have no reason to do otherwise.

Dear Robert,I meant to ask this before as it really puzzles me, is why you wish to refer to God as Himself, Word and Wisdom when the New Testament revelation is clear that God manifested Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28).Good question:The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15).--taken from: The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XVThis is confirmed by the bible. In many scripture references in the new testament, "the Father" is referenced to "God." Jesus is called "God's son" and thus, God is the Father. Of course, I do not think you will deny that the son has been identified in John 1 as being "the Word." The Holy Spirit is Wisdom, as established in the Old Testament in Proverbs 8, and in these scriptures as well:Exodus 28:3 (KJ)And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.Deuteronomy 34:9 (KJ)And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.Isaiah 11:2 (KJ)And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;Ephesians 1:17 (KJ)That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:In love,Blake

Yes, indeed, this is near Orthodox Trinity, however, the use of the word "persona" is dangerously bordering Modalism. Is God one person with three personas? Or is God three persons of whom are three individuals?Well we're getting a little closer to an understanding. I thought that by using the terms "three different Persons'" and "seperate personas" the definition I presented was not promoting modalism. At this point can we agree that the definition given is the orthodox position; understanding that "persona" does not mean "face"? Remember all we're doing here is etablishing what the orthodox position is, we're not saying anything about if it is true to Scripture or not.In Christ,Ron

Dear Robert, A few more notes to add:Numbers 11:23 (NLT)Then the LORD said to Moses, "Is there any limit to my power? Now you will see whether or not my word comes true!"Hebrews 4:12a (NLT)For the word of God is full of living power.God's Word is power. God is all powerful. God's Wisdom is knowledge. God is all knowing. Zechariah 4:14 (NLT)Then he said to me, "They represent the two anointed ones who assist the Lord of all the earth."The two anointed ones described here are God's power and God's knowledge (His Word and His Wisdom).This is also echoed in the bible.Job 12:13 (NLT)"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are his.Isaiah 10:13 (NLT)He boasts, "By my own power and wisdom I have won these wars. By my own strength I have captured many lands, destroyed their kings, and carried off their treasures.Daniel 2:20 (NLT)saying, "Praise the name of God forever and ever, for he alone has all wisdom and power.Mark 6:2 (NLT)The next Sabbath he began teaching in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished. They asked, "Where did he get all his wisdom and the power to perform such miracles?Revelation 5:6 (NLT)I looked and I saw a Lamb that had been killed but was now standing between the throne and the four living beings and among the twenty-four elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God that are sent out into every part of the earth.Horns represent power and the eyes represent knowledge. God is all powerful and all seeing. Jesus was not just a man, He had the Spirit. Jesus had God's power and wisdom. 1 Corinthiansb 1:24 (NLT)Christ is the mighty power of God and the wonderful wisdom of God.Jesus is Lord.You may reject this, but I want to share it anyway. The Lord doesn't reveal things for us to keep them to ourselves.God created man with free will. God created man with power. Our sin is to use our power against God. God created the angels (spirits) with knowledge. Thier sin is to use thier knowledge against God. Together, man and angel formed evil, a force capable of defying God. Thankfully, the power and wisdom of God is greater than the power of man and the knowledge of spirits.We would have never sinned if the Devil had never tempted us. We did not have the knowledge to sin. The Devil would have never been able to defy God's power without us. The Devil had the knowledge of evil, but He has no power. That is why the Devil tempted us, and continues to tempt us. He does this in order to attack God and challenge His throne.That is also why we are not saved by knowledge. We are saved by faith. Faith is a choice of free will. In love,Blake

Dear All,I hope in this debate I have not offended or belittled anyone. It has never been my intention to belittle someone's faith or thier experience with Christ. If that is what I am doing, I am deeply sorry. My ultimate goal is only to encourage others in thier faith. I have learned much in this debate, and I am still learning. I have questioned all my thoughts, and listened to every response. Though, sometimes I fail at understanding everyone. I do not think I am better than anyone else. I am much less, and that is apparent by many measures. I am not right, and that which is right in me is not of my own strength. If I am right it is only because of Christ in me. If I am wrong, it is because I have stumbled. I have been praying that the Lord help and bless us all. I have been seeking unity among us, and seeing I am the only one who seems to disagree, it would appear I am the problem. I apologize. I pray that through this, we will find unity. In love,Blake

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son.Can you show me where in scripture this is?Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.2Pe 1:17 For He (Jesus Christ) received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him (Jesus Christ) from the Excellent Glory, (The Father) This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.This is plainly the Father speaking to Son, and yet they are both very God and the Holy Spirit agree's with the Father,Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him: Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in Thee I am well pleased. Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon Him.The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit all agreeing that this is truly the Son of God.Amen. Ready to defeat the devil Satan himself, and begin His ministry to the house of Israel and bring salvation by faith to Jew and Gentile. No more Children of Israel but Children of the Father birthing Jesus Christ in those that would believe and become son's of God a new created race of people, the full nature of God in Jesus Christ exchanging the spirit of Satan for the Spirit of Christ. Jesus the Son makes me Phillip the son and brother to Christ and all who believe.In Christ: Phillip

Thanks Philip.There are some Psalms too which make the 'inter-personal' encounter very plain.“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” (Psa. 110:1, KJVS)

It is plainly revealed in the scripture that the Father is able to have conversation with the Son while being conscious that He himself is not the Son.I don't mean to be too pickey, but you used the word "conversation." In none of these instances did a conversation take place. It was always a one-way declaration. When you walk, do you not command your legs to move? When you speak, do you not command your tongue? Are not your words directed by you? And when you command your legs, do they not move? Does not your tongues say everything you command it? Or is it a seperate person from you?Jesus the Son makes me Phillip the son and brother to Christ and all who believe.I agree that you are an adopted child of God. However, you must also becareful in such a statement as to call Christ your brother. I am not equal to Christ. I could not do what He did. Who am I to die on the cross for the sins of all? I died with Christ. But I myself am a sinner who was not worthy of such. I am less than Christ, and He is more. It is my choice to accept Christ as more, but nonetheless, I worship Christ. This means Christ is my God. I have chosen to make Jesus my God, and I choose to worship and love Him as my Lord. Is Jesus your Lord? Or is Jesus your brother? When I reach Heaven, I will not see Christ bowing down next to me before God. Rather, I will be bowing down at the feet of Christ, worshipping Him, and giving Him all my praise. Jesus is Lord.In love,Blake

Dear Philologos,“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)The doctrine of the Trinity holds the idea that the Son was eternally generated from the Father. However, this scripture above says "this day have I begotten thee." This implies a specific moment in time. What then does this scripture mean? And how does it fit into this idea of "Eternal Generation"? Where in scripture does it support the idea of "Eternal Generation?"I couldn't find any information on this. I am trying to understand. Thanks,In love,Blake

God did not proceed from God's Word. Rather, God's Word proceeded from God. Do you see the difference?Hi Blake, I think I have become confused, when you said "God's Word" I assumed this was capitalized to specify Jesus (John 1:1-2)

Blake, take a look at Zechariah 13:7 below, I have used a few different versions to aid us:Zechariah 13:7Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is My associate, says the Lord of hosts; smite the shepherd and the sheep [of the flock] shall be scattered, and I will turn back My hand and stretch it out again upon the little ones [of the flock]. (amp)Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith Jehovah of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones. (asv)"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me," declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones." (esv)Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. (kjv)Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones." (niv)Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, the man who is my partner, says the LORD Almighty. Strike down the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn against the lambs. (nlt)Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is My associate, says the Lord of hosts; smite the shepherd and the sheep [of the flock] shall be scattered, and I will turn back My hand and stretch it out again upon the little ones [of the flock]. (amp)Sword, awake against My shepherd, And against a hero -- My fellow, An affirmation of Jehovah of Hosts. Smite the shepherd, and scattered is the flock, And I have put back My hand on the little ones. (ylt)What do you make of this?

“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” (Psa. 2:7, KJVS)The doctrine of the Trinity holds the idea that the Son was eternally generated from the Father. However, this scripture above says "this day have I begotten thee." This implies a specific moment in time. mmm? I wondered when we might get around to this? :-) I am not sure that I am 'orthodox' on this one. The quoted verse is used in the New Testament in different contexts. eg“God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” (Acts 13:33, KJVS) Here the 'specific moment' seems to be Christ's resurrection.Whereas in... “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” (Heb. 1:3-5, KJVS) ...the 'specific moment' seems to be the ascension.The whole concept of 'eternal generation' is something of an oxymoron. It is the concept of an 'eternal beginning' which I find a little difficult to handle! Either it has a beginning and is thus not-eternal or it is eternal and therefore has no beginning. There may be others who have fathomed this, but not me, not yet.My explanation, not of the orthodox trinitarian view, but of scriptural references to 'this day have a begotten you' is that Biblical terms are not always used in a biological sense but in a relationship sense. There was a thread, way back, on firstborn son where I tried to explain my understanding on this. I regard the phrase from Ps 2 as signifying a 'specific moment' when God declared the status of His only Son. The 'only Son' sets Him apart as absolutely unique from any other 'son'. I have wondered whether the pattern for this comes from Gen. 22:2 (KJVS) And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Gen. 22:12 (KJVS) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me....in spite of the fact that Ishmael had already been born. The Hebrew word here is "yaw-kheed'yaw-kheed´; from 3161; properly, united, i.e. sole; by implication, beloved; also lonely; (feminine) the life (as not to be replaced):—darling, desolate, only (child, son), solitary. The sense of absolute uniqueness rather than any reference to biology or to numbers in the family. You can check my theory out by looking at the other times this word is used; (Gen. 22:2,12,16; Judg. 11:34; Psa. 22:20; 25:16; 35:17; 68:6; Prov. 4:3; Jer. 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zech. 12:10) The Ps 22:20 verse is particularly poignant where the KJV translates it 'darling'“Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.” (Psa. 22:20, KJVS)...and where Darby has...“Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog;” (Psa. 22:20, DRBY)In Romans Paul contrasts the human origin and the divine declaration: “concerning his Son (come of David’s seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to [the] Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of [the] dead) Jesus Christ our Lord;” (Rom. 1:3-4, DRBY) Darby's parantheses make life a little difficult here but the point is that Christ was 'the Son of David' as regards His human designation, but has been plainly designated (not re-designated) as 'the Son of God' by the event of the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ did not 'make him' the Son of God but clearly 'set him apart' as God's Son. I do not believe that this event was one in which 'the only begotten Son of God was made the firstborn Son of God' which is the phrase used by Witness Lee in his commentary on this verse. In effect, the Resurrection, "said" 'Thou art my son, this day have I made plain your unique relationship to me.'I rather think the orthodox trinitarian statement here may have got into an oxymoron. There is, however, a key 'specific moment' in John's gospel. John has been using the imperfect tense to convey the eternity of his opening statement. From the very beginning the Word already 'was'; “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” (John 1:1-4, KJVS) This is just the imperfect tense of the verb 'estai' to exist. There is no 'specific moment' here, just eternal existence; in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God; eternal relationship, and the Word was God; eternal divinity; this mystery we call Trinity. But when John gets to verse 14 he declaresand the Word became flesh... he switches to the Aorist tense to indicate a 'specific moment'. There is no 'becoming' in the early verses to describe the Word but the incarnation is a 'becoming' and one in which God is able to 'declare' the identity of His only Son.Let's hear what the other Trinitarians have to offer...

Dear Ron,I would have to say that I agree with your entire post. I wonder, does this mean that the Word became God's Son when born into flesh, or was the Word considered to be God's Son before becoming flesh? In love,Blake

This might be helpfull:http://www.gty.org.uk/articles/sonship2A.htm

Dear Nasher,On Zechariah 13:7....I think it is interesting that the Lord is speaking to a sword. He commands the sword, "Awake, O sword." Would you say that because the Lord has spoken to the sword that it is a seperate person from the Lord? As far as the word "associate" which is translated other places as "neighbor".... This does establish a level of distinction. I do believe there is a level of distinction between God and God's Son, however, to what degree I do not know. This distinction, however, would not lead me to say that the Son is not the Father, or that they are two seperate persons. Additionally, one thing I would like to establish is that an associate is not someone who is less than, but someone that is equal with and shares in. They are associated with you and bound together by some sort of association. The scripture says, "the man who." It definitely establishes that this associate is a man, specifically a man who has strength and is able to fight. And so, the Lord is calling a man "My associate." What? How is that possible? How can any man be called an associate of God? All men were created by God. They are less than God. All men are bad. No one is good. How could a man be called God's associate? I think it is interesting, as well, that the sheep are called "little ones". The sheep are obviously not on the same level as the shepard. They are much less. They are little in comparison. This man is not the average man. This man is not only an associate of God, He is also the King of men. He is a man, and yet greater than men. Curiously, what do you make of this scripture? In love,Blake

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Our image and our likeness. Already the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.And this is the rest of the story.Ephesians 1:4-11 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:Christ was in the God Head as the Son before the foundation of the world ever was. It was already in God's plan for us to be in Christ when He created Adam, knowing without the Nature of God being in us, man, he could never be righteousness; 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: and be the children of God with His nature filling us with the Life of God Himself in Christ Jesus our Seed. If we are not born again we cannot see the things of the Kingdom of God.Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of Incorruptible,(Seed) by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.And who is the Word of God, of course Jesus Christ Himself the Seed.The dispensation of the fullness of time, remember 1 day is as a thousand years to the Father. It has not been even 2 weeks to God and all this has happened. There is only time with us that God might show us past present and future in Christ. There is no past present and future with God, He always was and always will be. Seeing Christ as all in all from Gods Point of view is the very essence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when it comes to dealing with His creation.One year to God and of course this is only to give us finite creation perspective, is as 365,000 years, 75 years, the life of a man=27,275,000 years to God. Long time Huh? And still not eternity. Christ is all in all, has been and always will be.In Christ: Phillip

Dear Nasher, I read through that article, and I would have to say I agree with some of the points that he makes as well. I would agree with Ron that Psalms 2 is speaking of Jesus at the resurrection as Paul had preached in Acts 13:33. And as such, it is establishing that Jesus is the firstborn son of many sons who would become children of God by being born into the Spirit. I also cannot deny the statement that "the Word became flesh." This definitely establishes a point of birth and conception. Jesus is the Son of God, as He originated from God. I also agree with this by John MacArthur...1. I am now convinced that the title "Son of God" when applied to Christ in Scripture always speaks of His essential deity and absolute equality with God, not His voluntary subordination. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time understood this perfectly. John 5:18 says they sought the death penalty against Jesus, charging Him with blasphemy "because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges—and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called "Son of God," it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title "Son of God" as high blasphemy. Some additional thoughts....The word "son" is a title. It does provide insight into the origins of the person whom it represents, meaning, it tells me that it is a son. All sons are offspring. This title does not always apply to humans. For instance, a dog may have sons. However, the title does establish a point of origin or birth. Any origin, as we know, has a beginning. It is a starting point. The title also provides insight into the origins of species. A son is specifically a male.The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father. Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin? Genesis 4:1 (KJ)And Adam knew * Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare * Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.The word "gotten" is from the Hebrew word "Qanah" which means "to get, acquire, create, buy, possess." The word "bare" is from the Hebrew word "Yalad" which means "to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail."I think it is interesting to note that Eve acknowledge that the Lord possessed Cain, however, she brought him forth. These two words are significant in understanding sonship. We have all been possessed by God. We are His thought, His idea, and His concept. Before the world began, we were but a thought in His head. We were a concept and an idea. We were His until the day we were born. We were given over to our parents who brought us forth. We were born into the world. We were concieved by our parents and then begotten by our mothers.God's Word, however, has eternally been with God. God's Word was God. Thus, God's Word was never acquired with a point of acquisition, but rather, God's Word was God. God's Word was eternally possessed. In other words, God's Word has eternally belonged to God. No one has or ever will own God's Word. It is His Word and only His. God's Word is in the bosom of the Father. John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared himIt says "is in" and not "was in." This implies that the Word never left the father. The Word cannot be seperated from Him. The Word is one with God. The Word was God. At some point, however, the Word of God was brought forth. The Word was not seperated from God. The Word was brought forth into flesh. The Word became flesh. At this point, the title of "son" became fully realized, for at this point did The Word become a human male. At this point, the Word was not only the son of God, but the Word was also the son of man. The Word is the only Son. The Word is the only one who is the son of God and the son of Man.This is not to say that this is the only time the Word was brought forth. The Word was also brought forth at the beginning of creation. Colossians 1:17 (NASB)15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.John 1:3 (NAS)All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.The Word was brought forth at the beginning of creation. The Word is the "firstborn of all creation." The Word was brought forth before everything else. And then, through the Word, everything was created. Thus, Jesus was begotten three times in accord with the bible: 1) He was brought forth as the firstborn of all creation. 2) He was brought forth as the first to be born with the Spirit of God in the flesh. 3) He was brought forth as the first to be resurrected into new life. Additionally, Jesus is eternally in the bosom of God. In love,Blake

The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father. Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin? I don't think you could call a sculpture a 'son'. The word 'son' has to do with things paternal and filial; it is a mutual relationship word. For you to be able to call a sculpture a 'son' the sculpture would have to have the ability to call you 'father'.And by saying a 'son is born' you are making the metaphor much more literal than I would make it. I don't think the point of 'born' is that it had an origin but rather that is has the 'life' of the 'father' in it.I realise with these words that the language I read in the scripture has a 'feel' about it. I see that the scripture speaks of men who 'became sons' but who had no biological link with the 'father'. I read of 'begettings' when there was no physical offspring. These are all 'relationship' words rather than 'biological indicators' or even 'time indicators'.

I think it is interesting that the Lord is speaking to a sword. He commands the sword, "Awake, O sword." Would you say that because the Lord has spoken to the sword that it is a seperate person from the Lord?If the sword spoke back to God, then perhaps, otherwise, no.I do believe there is a level of distinction between God and God's Son, however, to what degree I do not know. This distinction, however, would not lead me to say that the Son is not the Father, or that they are two seperate persons.Are you saying God has an alter-ego / split personality?And so, the Lord is calling a man "My associate." What? How is that possible? How can any man be called an associate of God? All men were created by God. They are less than God. All men are bad. No one is good. How could a man be called God's associate?Only Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% man be called an associate of God the Father, He has been this "associate" for all eternity.Curiously, what do you make of this scripture?This is the Father saying He will strike the shepherd (Jesus).It is a very sobering thought...

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children , in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm , Thou art my Son , this day have I begotten thee .begotten;1080. gennaoSearch for G1080 in KJVSLgennaw gennao ghen-nah'-ofrom a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.Check out the Hebrew in Psa 2 Psalms 2:7-8 I will declare the decree : the LORD hath said of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance , and the uttermost parts for thy possession

Dear Nasher,Are you saying God has an alter-ego / split personality?Jesus was a teacher, was He not? He came to demonstrate and teach us. The most effective form of teaching is demonstration. If you want to teach your children not to smoke cigarettes, then don't smoke yourself. They will do what you do. We are followers of Jesus and thus we do what Jesus does. We mimic Him. God was not crazy, he was teaching us. God is not split in any way, even in His person.Only Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% man be called an associate of God the Father, He has been this "associate" for all eternity.So how do you explain this scripture...Zechariah 4:14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.And what do you make of angels and demons? They often appeared in human form. Are the angels and demons persons? Would you say Satan is a person?In love,Blake

Dear Philologos,I don't think you could call a sculpture a 'son'. The word 'son' has to do with things paternal and filial; it is a mutual relationship word. For you to be able to call a sculpture a 'son' the sculpture would have to have the ability to call you 'father'.Many artists, especially musicians, refer to thier art as thier children. Granted, they do not use the words, "son" or "daughter" as it tells of a specific sex. Artists who put themselves into thier work will call the final piece "my child." I do agree this describes a relationship. However, it is not always a human relationship where by the word of one is transferred with the word of another in communication. A dog may have a puppy that is called the "son" of the "father." This term is used for animals all the time. Don't you think that saying something is your "son" connotes something more than just a relationship?The "son" shares characteristics (or something) of the "father" who bestowed or brought forth those characteristics (or something) in the son. Something of the "father" has been put into the "son," and this "putting into" was done at a certain point in time called a "birth." By this, not everything I create can be called my "son." However, if I create something that has a part of me put into it, then I would call it my "son." More or less, a part of the "father" somehow influences the development or creation of the "son." The man I call my father is actually my stepfather and bears no biological relation to me. I call him "father" because he raised me. What he put into me was not his blood, but his soul. He raised me from a child directing my growth. I am adopted by him as a son, though I am not born of him, I am still his by his own choice. I am called his son because of what he has done for me and what he has put into me. At some point, he had to make the choice to be my father, and I suppose you could call this my birth, the point by which he was put into me and I became his son. Even still, I believe that the birth we experience with the Spirit is even more dramatic. We are transformed by the Spirit and given new life. We are born again. I am a son of God because He has transformed me and made me new. I have been born again and have experienced a new birth. By calling God my "Father," I am not just recognizing the intimate relationship I have with Him, I am also recognizing the influence and power He has had over my person. I am who I am because of Him. I suppose that is why "beggetting" or being born in my mind is best said as being "brought forth." Because we were "brought forth" at some point by our parents. We don't just have a relationship with them, we have been "brought forth" by them. Who I am has originated from a source that is my parents. (Not all that I am, because I am a seperate person from them. However, since Jesus was not seperate from the father, all that He is comes from God.)I think it is interesting to note that Jesus came from the father and then through Jesus, everything else was created. And so, Jesus is truly the only son of the father as the bible says. In love,Blake

Quote: So how do you explain this scripture...Zechariah 4:14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.Zec 4:14v11-14 Zechariah desires to know what are the two olive trees. Zerubbabel and Joshua, this prince and this priest, were endued with the gifts and graces of God's Spirit. They lived at the same time, and both were instruments in the work and service of God. Christ's offices of King and Priest were shadowed forth by them. From the union of these two offices in his person, both God and man, the fullness of grace is received and imparted. They built the temple, the church of God. So does Christ spiritually. Christ is not only the Messiah, the Anointed One himself, but he is the Good Olive to his church; and from his fulness we receive. And the Holy Spirit is the unction or anointing which we have received. From Christ the Olive Tree, by the Spirit the Olive Branch, all the golden oil of grace flows to believers, which keeps their lamps burning. Let us seek, through the intercession and bounty of the Saviour, supplies from that fulness which has hitherto sufficed for all his saints, according to their trials and employments. Let us wait on him in his ordinances, desiring to be sanctified wholly in body, soul, and spirit.In Christ: Phillip

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------""The word "son" does not indicate the process of origin. I could call a sculpture I have created, "my son." I created the sculpture and it originated from me. It is my son. I could also give birth to an idea, or to another human being. The process of origination is not described in the title. As Ron has established, we can be called a "son" for multiple reasons. We may be born of a nation and called the "son" of that nation. We are sons of England. We are sons of Adam. We are sons of our fathers. And we are sons of our Father. Even still, a son is born. It has a point of origin. And so, if Jesus is God and is eternal, how could He have a point of origin?"" This is the eternal Son that was with God which is called the Word and the Word was God. The beginning is the beginning of Genesis which is our beginning as we know it. God has no beginning or end. So this beginning is Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.This is the Flesh beginning of Christ- ((((This is the point of origin of the manifestation of the Son of God in the flesh)))) -as we know Him from the Gospels: John 1:11-14 He came unto his own, and his own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.God in the beginning of the creation of the earth, as creating "man in our image" is eternal God the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, who always was and always will be is the eternal of all Three of the God Head who is One God.Christ being the Word made flesh and the only begotten of the Father is the place where Christ was manifest in the Flesh but not His eternal beginning or end. As even we were chosen In Him before the foundation of the earth. Ephesians 1:4-14 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which he hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in One all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His Glory.In Christ: Phillip

The "son" shares characteristics (or something) of the "father" who bestowed or brought forth those characteristics (or something) in the son. Something of the "father" has been put into the "son," and this "putting into" was done at a certain point in time called a "birth." In fact the concept of 'child' has more to do with 'likeness' in the scriptures. eg“I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39, KJVS)Christ spoke to those who were Abraham's seed but not Abraham's children; a vital distinction apparently.

Seed, pretty important I would say, it is the only thing that brings life.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible Seed, but of incorruptible, by the Lord (oops Word) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. We have the Seed of the Father By Christ the Incorruptable Seed birthed in us. of . . . of . . . by--"The word of God" is not the literal printed material of bible, but the spiritual Person of Christ being our new birth, He is the means and medium. By means of the Word the man receives the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit, which is Christ in you the hope of glory and so becomes one "born again": Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument. The word is the instrument in relation to the individual; baptism Into One Spirit in relation to the Church as The Body of Christ. (Jas 1:18) and 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.In Christ:Phillip

as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument.Baptism is the 'the proximate instrument' of regeneration? I ask again, do you really mean to say this? This sounds as though we are getting very close to some kind of 'baptismal regeneration'.Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied.Which Greek text are you using here? Neither the Byzantine Textform nor Westcott and Hort have the definite article for either 'water' or 'spirit'. The Darby translation shows the grammatic sense of the sentence...“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5, DRBY)

Absolutely Not!There is only one baptism that counts, that is why I used the scripture, "We are all baptized into one Spirit." Baptismal Regeneration is not the one that gets us wet unless it is the washing of Water of the Word. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: The Holy Spirit is the One that washes us by the Word, The Word is Christ Himself, and the Blood of Christ cleanses to the utmost. There is no Baptismal Regeneration unless it is of Christ used by the Holy Spirit in Christ's Redemption.Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.In Christ: PhillipEphesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

There is only one baptism that counts, that is why I used the scripture, "We are all baptized into one Spirit." Baptismal Regeneration is not the one that gets us wet unless it is the washing of Water of the Word. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. So why say that 'water baptism' is 'the instrument'? Is that what you were saying? And which Greek texts are you using?

No, that is not what I was saying. I am using Strong's and Wuest's Greek Word studies in the Greek New Testament. The washing of water with the Word is the Holy Spirit using the Christ in us to cleanse us and teach us this Christ that is birthed by the Father that is in us. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.I wrote: We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory. The means is Christ not water baptism. But if you want to be baptized in water lets find the river. :-D

We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory. So you are saying that 'water baptism' is a 'means'. This is still 'baptismal regeneration'.btw I was baptised in water over 40 years ago and have conducted many baptisms, but I never lead anyone to believe that the 'water baptism' was a 'means' whereby they were regenerated.

No, No, On, Water baptism it does nothing except to give evidence in this world of what has happened in the spirit of a saved person. Where have I made the implication that water baptism is what will save you? I have not. Will not and would not ever say you need water baptism to be saved. I have said all along it is the baptism into Christ and His death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit baptism in us that Christ promised. There is only one baptismal regeneration and that is when Christ is Born Again in the Believer by the Father which has nothing to do with water baptism in the Church by a person, that can save no one. Only Christ in you the Hope of Glory is our salvation.If a person is saved and wants to be baptized in water, Christ has already been spiritually baptized in them, they now have all of Christ and all the Holy Spirit both having been baptized in them not water baptism. We must separate water baptism and The Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ and The Holy Spirit being baptized into us by the Father at the request of Jesus, the Comforter. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit does not baptize in water, He baptizes us into Christ and His death, literally, we are in spirit put into Christ and Christ in us.John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost; by which the great difference is implied between outward baptism (administered by whomsoever, though the Baptist himself) and the inward baptism of the Holy Ghost, which, as fire, separates powerfully the scum and dross of sin from us.Quote: I said, "We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory.The means is Christ. Christ is the Means. Christ = means The means of salvation is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. I see no water baptism in any of this. God the Father places Jesus Christ in the believer by the Holy Spirit and is sealed by the Holy Spirit, this is being born again, born from above.In Christ: Phillip

Dear Philologos,In fact the concept of 'child' has more to do with 'likeness' in the scriptures.“I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39, KJVS)You are correct to say there is a distinction. My biological father, as I call him, is my father because I am a seed of him. His biology has been transferred into me. My stepfather is my father because he has loved me. I have a father and son relationship with him. In this passage, Jesus does establish that they are a "seed" of Abraham, as such suggesting that they are a descendant of Abraham. By this, they are in fact the children of Abraham. However, Jesus also says, "If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham."To me, this establishes the relationship of love. If they loved Abraham as a father, then they would do the works of Abraham. However, they do not love him as a father, and therefore, do not honor him or obey him. In either, there is an established point of birth. When I exited my mother's womb, I was born of flesh. When my stepfather decided to be my father, adopt me and raise me, and when I accepted him as my father, I was born in love. My father's love was "put into" me by his choice to love me and my acceptance of his love. In love,Blake

Hi Blake,In either, there is an established point of birth. When I exited my mother's womb, I was born of flesh. When my stepfather decided to be my father, adopt me and raise me, and when I accepted him as my father, I was born in love. I am trying to see how this model even has relevance within your view of God. If Jesus Christ is the Father and the Son then the whole model becomes nonsense.

Christinyou's Christinyou on 2005/12/8 10:56:46No, No, On, Water baptism it does nothing except to give evidence in this world of what has happened in the spirit of a saved person. Where have I made the implication that water baptism is what will save you? I took up this issue because you described baptism (and I have presumed you meant 'water' as you quoted John 3:3-5) as 'the proximate instrument' of new birth. Christinyou on 2005/12/7 18:26:59By means of the Word the man receives the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit, which is Christ in you the hope of glory and so becomes one "born again": Joh 3:3-5, "born of water and the Spirit": as there is but one Greek article to the two nouns, the close connection of the sign and the grace, or new birth signified is implied. The word is the remote and anterior instrument; baptism, the proximate instrument.An instrument is a 'means' by which an action is conducted.

Dear Robert,I am trying to see how this model even has relevance within your view of God. If Jesus Christ is the Father and the Son then the whole model becomes nonsense.I forgot myself the point I was trying to make by all that. Lol. I'll have to review all that I said.In regards to you statement of nonsense...... John says (KJ) "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John says the Word was with God and the Word was God. How is it possible for something to be "with" God, and "was" God? Is that not nonsense? Have you ever said of anything, "This is with me, and it is me."?When a man and woman marry, they become one flesh and yet they are two persons. Have you ever said, "My wife is with me, and she is me."??How is this possible? I will share with you how this makes sense, in accord with what I believe, if you would like. I would be curious as to how you respond to this, and how it makes sense to you. How do you understand the "with" and "was" spoken of here?In love,Blake

by beenblake on 2005/12/8 22:05:33Have you ever said of anything, "This is with me, and it is me."?When a man and woman marry, they become one flesh and yet they are two persons. Have you ever said, "My wife is with me, and she is me."??You raised this previously, I recall. If I may interpose into the specfic Robert questions... No and no. I have never said of something that was 'not me' this is 'me'. I can't imagine putting together into one sentence "this is not me and on the other hand this is me" I cannot imagine putting together "I am 'with' myself" either. This makes communication non-sense.

Dear Philologos,I cannot imagine putting together "I am 'with' myself" either. This makes communication non-sense.On the surface, it seems to be logically unreasonable, unless of course you are beside yourself. Lol.If I am not with myself, then I must be away from myself. Have I lost my mind, or myself?I do believe that by saying "with," John established a distinction between the Word and God. However, by saying the Word "was" God, John established a unity that is more than any relationship we physically know. I don't think anyone would argue with this. I believe that the great mystery of our faith is how God could become a man and die for our sins. The trinity is not a mystery, and can be understood. However, there is nothing on earth that bears this resemeblence except for man, because man was created in God's image. Man is the only creature that bears a trinity that is like that of God. However, many people don't understand even the trinity that exists within us for none of it is seen. However, it can be found in the bible, although not easy discerned. I will explain in the next post... Blake

The Trinity.So, I will explain this the best that I can. Of course, it is good that we debate or question things as this helps to siphon out any error.What is the Trinity? In a previous post, I established that it was "God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom." Humans were created in the image of God, and we too share this trinity just as God does. Ours is limited in comparison to God, but just as God bears this trinity, so do we. The trinity is simply this: heart, word, wisdom. I will go through each of these and explain what they are as best as I can.The HeartThe heart is the very essence of one's being. It is in the heart that all choices are made. The will of man or God comes from the heart. Our loves also comes from our heart. When we love someone or something, we give them our heart. Our heart is our very nature. The Lord said He judges people according to thier heart.(1 Samuel 16:7) Sin lives in the heart.(Psalms 19:12; 66:18) From our heart comes all our words and actions. (Proverbs 4:23; Matthew 6:21; 12:34) Our heart is the place of our desire and will. (Psalms 21:2; 27:8) When we are saved, the Lord gives us a new heart. (Ezekiel 18:31; 36:26) The WordThe word is the will spoken. The word of a man is his power and strength. The word of a man is limited to his body. For instance, it is the will of a man to sit down. He then commands his body, he speaks, and the body then responds to the will of the man by sitting.In a man, the word has two forms, innate and uttered. A man may have a particular will, but has not yet acted on that will. This is the innate word. When the man utters his word, he has spoken and his will be done. When we speak of the "word", we are not just talking about "words." We are talking about the will in action. Our words and our actions are the will in action. The word comes from the heart acting upon our will. Our word is chosen in our heart. Man's word is limited. When we speak, our word may never be done. God's Word is full of living power.(Hebrews 4:12) When God spoke, the whole universe was created.(Genesis 1) God's Word is the light of men.(John 1:9) God's Word does the will of God exactly. The WisdomWisdom is righteousness.(Proverbs 8:20; Psalms 37:30) Wisdom is truth, understanding, and instruction. (Proverbs 23:23) Wisdom is the beauty of God and man. (Ezekiel 28:7) Wisdom is not merely knowledge, but the knowledge of truth. The wisdom of men has been immensely limited, moreso than our word. When we are born, we have little wisdom if any. Our wisdom is gained through experience. True wisdom and righteousness comes from God. God's Wisdom is clearly the Holy Spirit. This is made evident in Proverbs 8, as shown in a previous post. Jesus called the Holy Spirit the great Counselor. Wisdom speaks in Proverbs 8:14 saying, "Counsel is mine." The Word of God is all powerful, and the Spirit of God is all seeing. God's Word and WisdomZechariah 4:14 speaks of God's two anointed ones that standing by the Lord. This is the Lord's Word and Wisdom. They are being personified here, however, they are not seperate persons. God's Word and Wisdom are a united pair, much like a husband and wife are one flesh. These have a strict unity that is indivisible. The word is the fountain of wisdom. The word is the will in action, and it is always accompanied with wisdom. The word acts in accord with wisdom as chosen by the heart.I believe that when God created male and female in His image, He bestowed upon males the image of God's Word, and upon females the image of God's Wisdom. When the Word created the heavens in the earth, it did so bearing wisdom. Like a wife, Wisdom always accompanies the Word as His helper. When the Word became flesh, it was concieved by the Spirit, and came bearing the Spirit. Jesus was the Word become flesh filled with the Wisdom of God. Unity and DistinctionGod is one. He is indivisible. There is one God. There is not three Gods. God is one person. God has one will. God has one nature. God has one heart. God has one Word. God has one Wisdom. God is one. These are not seperate modes of God. These three are all working simultaneously, all communicating with each other. They are like three persons as such, although to call them three persons is highly misleading as it lends itself to three seperate Gods too easily. A man also has a heart, word, and wisdom. A man has a heart which is where his will and love comes. A man has a word that is manifested in the flesh. A man's power comes from his word which is made possible through his flesh. A man also has wisdom, his own spirit. A man's word does the will of a man in accord with the counsel of his wisdom. Some might call these three: mind, body, and soul. Although, I believe this is a poor summation.Man was created in God's image. One man is one person. Man is three in one. God is also one person who is three in one. I could expand on all this, but I think that is enough for now. The Word was with God and the Word was God. In love,Blake

beenblake'sIn a previous post, I established that it was "God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom." Humans were created in the image of God, and we too share this trinity just as God does. Ours is limited in comparison to God, but just as God bears this trinity, so do we. You have by no means 'established' any such thing. Mankind is not a 'trinity' and no-one would say so who was not changing the whole concept of the word. God does not 'bear a trinity': you are misappropriating the concept in your mix of unitarianism and modalism.The Word of God is all powerful, and the Spirit of God is all seeing. In distributing the attributes of God between the Father, Son and Spirit you deny the essential divinity of each. The Father must have all the attribute of divinity to be God, so must the Son, so must the Spirit. Man was created in God's image. One man is one person. Man is three in one. God is also one person who is three in one. For any who have come late to this discussion, this is beenBlake's continuing contention. He denies the distinctive personality of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. In the end, it is form of unitarianism which denies the concept of eternal fellowship between the Father, Son and Spirit.

Dear Philologos,In distributing the attributes of God between the Father, Son and Spirit you deny the essential divinity of each. The Father must have all the attribute of divinity to be God, so must the Son, so must the Spirit. This statement would be correct if there was no unity. However, the whole point of the Trinity is that they are unified as one. They are not three seperate God's, but one. If each is a unique divinity, then you are saying there is three divinities and three Gods. However, the three all have the same divinity. The three are all one God. God does not 'bear a trinity'Indeed, I used the wrong words here. God is a trinity. God does not have or bear a trinity, He is a trinity. The union of the three is most essential. What one experiences, all experiences. What one has, all has. They are unified. And yet, there is a distinction of three. The purpose of each is significant to the understanding of all of creation, especially that of man.Ron, I am sorry that you disagree with me. I did not expect this would be well recieved. I wanted to share anyway. In love,Blake

However, the whole point of the Trinity is that they are unified as one. There is no 'point' to the Trinity, it is simply a statement of human understanding which over centuries has proved to be the best that we can do to 'understand' the complex nature of one God in three Persons. And no I am most definitely NOT saying there are 'three Gods'.he union of the three is most essential. What one experiences, all experiences. What one has, all has. They are unified. And yet, there is a distinction of three. The purpose of each is significant to the understanding of all of creation, especially that of man.This is why modalism was called patri-passionism, as Tertullian phrased it 'they have crucified the Father'! I am at a loss to understand why you hang on to a distinction of three and yet will not grant personhood to each. You have said, incorrectly, that man is a trinity. He is not. In theological language man is 'tripartite' not a 'trinity'. God, on the other hand is not 'tripartite', He is trinity. The distinction is that my three 'parts' make one person. God has no parts, but three distinct persons.

Dear Philologos,In theological language man is 'tripartite' not a 'trinity'.This I did not know, and I will research it. The distinction is that my three 'parts' make one person. God has no parts, but three distinct persons.I don't believe God is three parts. I don't believe man is just a bunch of parts either.Why cannot I accept that God is three distinct persons? Because each person has thier own word, will, and wisdom.To say this states that God has three wills that are unified. God does not have three wills, He has one will. His will is supreme. The whole basis for God's goodness hinges on this fact: that God is one with one will. Only God is good. Only God! There is no other that is good. And so, if you say Jesus had a seperate will from God, then you are saying that Jesus was not good, and thus, Jesus could not die for our sins and Jesus is not God. Adam was created with a seperate will from God. And because Adam's will was individual from God, Adam was not good. Never once did God look upon Adam see Adam was good. He saw that everything else was good, but He did not see that Adam was good. That is why it is so essential for us to submit unto God's will, not by our own power (or works), but with the Spirit. We are not good because we are good, but because God is good who is living in us. Jesus was good because He was God. Jesus was the Word of God become flesh. There are many other reasons why saying God is three persons is misleading, but this is the biggest.In love,Blake

by beenblake on 2005/12/9 17:30:18To say this states that God has three wills that are unified. God does not have three wills, He has one will. His will is supreme. The whole basis for God's goodness hinges on this fact: that God is one with one will. Please explain...“Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42, KJVS)Only God is good. Only God! There is no other that is good. And so, if you say Jesus had a seperate will from God, then you are saying that Jesus was not good, and thus, Jesus could not die for our sins and Jesus is not God. I am saying no such thing, and would prefer that you didn't put words into my mouth. What you are explaining here is what I would have to believe if I held your distorted views of godhead. The verse you quoted is usually expounded by evangelicals along the line that this was a challenge to the men to recognize that Christ was, in fact, God.

Luke 22:39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. This was His custom, and He had been there at least 2 times before and ask the same question. Do you want to take this cup from me and I stay for another year, yet not My will but Your's be done. Jesus knew there was only one 24 hour period He could dye on the Cross, and He was asking is it this time or not. In seeing His own suffering on the Cross which He already had said this was going to happen to the Apostles. He was not asking not to go to the Cross but if He should Stay another year and continue His ministry to lost sheep of the House of Israel. This time He was not given another year of ministry and He knew what was in front of Him, thus already shedding blood over what He must endure for the sin of the world. Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou'sIn seeing His own suffering on the Cross which He already had said this was going to happen to the Apostles. He was not asking not to go to the Cross but if He should Stay another year and continue His ministry to lost sheep of the House of Israel. Ingenious but erroneous. However I was not asking for an explination of the Luke passage but an explanation of the Luke passage from someone who claims there is only one person and hence one will in the godhead. This passage plainly identifies and distinguishes two wills.

One Will Three Persons'. Three Persons One God.Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Same with this scripture.Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.The question in debate was not about his being united with the Father in plan and counsel, but in power. He affirmed that he was able to rescue and keep his people from all enemies, or that he had power superior to men and devils--that is, that he had supreme power over all creation. He affirmed the same of his Father. In this, therefore, they were united. But this was an attribute only of God, and they thus understood him as claiming equality to God in regard to omnipotence.In Christ: Phillip

One Will Three Persons'. Three Persons One God.How then, "not my will but thine be done"? Is not 'will' a vital part of personhood?

oops. sorry, hit the submit button twice!

Of course it was not His will, independent of the Father, but the Fathers' also. The Father and He are One. This is just another proof of this One God In Three Persons.

Of course it was not His will, independent of the Father, but the Fathers' also. The Father and He are One. This is just another proof of this One God In Three Persons.His 'will' was never 'independent' of the Father; that was the whole point. If you are saying that the godhead is always 'one in will' I have no issues, but if you are saying there is only one point of volition within the Godhead you are moving in the same direction as 'beenblake' in his assertion that the Father, Son and Spirit are not 'persons' but one 'person'. I repeat that, in my thinking, personal volition is an essential attribute of personhood.

Quote: If you are saying that the godhead is always 'one in will' I have no issues, How can it be any other way? People say One God Three Persons'. Then try to separate Them. A finite mind cannot understand the things of God or the kingdom. The Holy Spirit being God with a title of Holy Spirit to do the work of God by the Holy Spirit independent in us for our understanding of how God works is still God in three Persons' but One God. Their Will is the same will. We are body, soul, and spirit but one person and each works different but not independent. Body, the house, Soul, the mind, and spirit is new birth now The Spirit of Christ.In Christ: Phillip

Their Will is the same will. We are body, soul, and spirit but one person and each works different but not independent. So are you saying that Christ did not have a 'will' of his own and that his choice of incarnation was not his own personal choice? Was Christ's submission the 'decision' of the Godhead or the 'choice' of the Son?We are body, soul, and spirit but one person and each works different but not independent. Body, the house, Soul, the mind, and spirit is new birth now The Spirit of Christ.Does this mean that you think that new birth substitutes Christ's spirit for our own spirit?

Dear Philologos,

I am saying no such thing, and would prefer that you didn't put words into my mouth. quote]I apologize. I was not meaning to put words in your mouth. When I said "you" in my original post, it was meant to be a general pronoun and not a person specific pronoun. It did not mean specifically "you", but "you" as in anybody.I can see however, how you would think that I was meaning "you" specifically, so in the future, I try to find another way of stating things. In love,Blake

Dear Philologos,If you are saying that the godhead is always 'one in will' I have no issues, but if you are saying there is only one point of volition within the Godhead you are moving in the same direction as 'beenblake' in his assertion that the Father, Son and Spirit are not 'persons' but one 'person'. I would just like to clarify, by this are you saying that God(the Godhead) has three distinct volitions(wills), and these three wills are 'one in will' because they are in agreement?Here is also another question:When we reach Heaven, we will be united with God as one. We will be 'one in will' with Him. Is this because of our submission unto God and His will? Or is this because we will be equal with God and He will agree with us?In love,Blake

Please explain...“Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” (Luke 22:42, KJVS)On the surface it does appear that Jesus has in fact a seperate will from the Father. There are several other scriptures that confirm this as well. (John 5:30; 6:38)Jesus is God and man. The will Jesus is spoken of as shown in Luke 22:24 is not one of divine volition but of earthly volition designated by the flesh. This is made clear by John 5:30. Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Notice that the scripture says, "I can of mine own self do nothing." If Jesus is indeed God, and one of the three in the GodHead, then He is completely divine in all ways and He is complete in all ways. If a person says, "Jesus needs the father" then Jesus is not in fact complete because He needs the father. In the above scripture however, Jesus says that He can of His own self do nothing. This obviously establishes that Jesus, apart from God as an independent self, can do nothing. This suggests that apart from God, Jesus is just flesh. And so, the will that Jesus is speaking when He says, "not mine own will" is referring to the will designated to Him by His flesh, and not the divine will of God.In John 1:13, "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man." The greek word used here is the same greek word used in Luke 22:43. This indicates that the flesh has a will and that man has a will. In Eph 2:3, the same greek word is used, except it is translated "desire." The verse says, "the desires of the flesh and of the mind...". Are the will of the flesh and of the mind the same will, or seperate? I don't know.The point of this is to establish that the flesh has a will independent of the spirit. The conflict of these two is problematic for us. Paul speaks about this in Galatians: Galatians 5:17 (KJSV)For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.Jesus lived in the flesh and thus was tempted in all ways just as we are tempted. The conflict of the will of the flesh and the will of God existed in Him. This was definitely highlighted by the experience at Gethsemane. We struggle with this everyday. Jesus struggled with the will of the flesh, however, He never submitted to it. Jesus never sinned. He always sought and did the will of the Father. He never once defied the divine will. Jesus was able to do this because He is God. God is good and only God is good. Though we as Christians have the Holy Spirit in us, we still cannot master the flesh. We do not have the power to be master of our own flesh. We need Jesus to be the master of our flesh, and in turn, we are a servant of Jesus. Within God, I do not believe there are three volitions in agreement. God is good. He is good because He is without conflict. God is pleasing to God. Within man, there is great conflict. We cannot do our own will let alone the will of God. We cannot master our flesh. God, however, has one will, and the power and wisdom to master it. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. His love is perfect.In love,Blake

Quote: Does this mean that you think that new birth substitutes Christ's spirit for our own spirit?Who was our spirit before rebirth? We were of our father the Devil. John 8:42-44 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.Yes the Spirit of Christ has been birthed in the Believer, and His Spirit is now Our spirit.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the >>>Spirit is life because of righteousness.>righteousness,

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and >>>righteousness,

by Christinyou on 2005/12/12 3:44:33Who was our spirit before rebirth? We were of our father the Devil. John 8:42-44 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.Yes the Spirit of Christ has been birthed in the Believer, and His Spirit is now Our spirit.The promise of the New Covenant as we find it in Ezekiel makes a careful distinction between 'our spirit' and 'God's spirit'.“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” (Ezek. 36:26-27, KJVS)The spirit is most certainly renewed in regeneration but it is not replaced by the Spirit of God. Rather it is the creating of a new spirit which makes it a fit dwelling place for God's spirit.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Col 1:27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.If before we believed we were of our father the devil and after we are of Christ our Savior and God our Father. This to me would be Satan out and Christ in. We have a complete new life in Christ and Christ is a complete life new in us.We now have the Spirit of Christ in us, He and His Father make their abode with us and the Promise of the Holy Spirit sent by the Father and requested by the Son is also in us. We have it all not a fixer upper body soul and spirit but a completely New Spirit, Christ in you the Hope of Glory, God the Father abiding with His Son in us also, and the Holy Spirit in our soul, renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ. We either Got all of it or none of it, you cannot just get part of God's Plan for His salvation, which is Christ and all His Glory in the believer, ye must be Born Again. Ezekiel does not say He would regenerate our spirit but would Give us A complete New Spirit and that Spirit is the Spirit of Life in whom we live and move and have our being, Jesus Christ. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

If before we believed we were of our father the devil and after we are of Christ our Savior and God our Father. This to me would be Satan out and Christ in. We have a complete new life in Christ and Christ is a complete life new in us.I have no problems with this conclusion, but to suggest that the human spirit is replaced by Christ's spirit is a bridge too far. Is this another Witness Lee conclusion?

Who is witness Lee?

Who is witness Lee?I apologise for this presumption. Your support of Grafted Branch's posting had led me to assume that you were on the same mind throughout. Again, my apologies.Who is Witness Lee? Here is one answer to that question.

Thank you for the information on Lee."Lee, late in his life, following the example of Athanasius, declared that God became man in Jesus so that man could become God in Christ (in the life and nature of God, but not in His Godhead). So foreign was such a declaration to the ears of many modern Western Christians, that it was taken by some as being heretical."I would only add to this quote in adding "as" to becoming >as< God in Christ. Why did we have to be rebirthed? Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God and God all along has wanted son's in His house. We are born again for that purpose so we can enter the Father's House. I will study Lee, and remember he is of oriental descent and keep in mind his cultural upbringing into his faith. We all have this problem and only the Holy Spirit can bring us into the Oneness of Christ in each other. In Christ: Phillip

Once we have established the unique identity and personhood of the triune godhead we can move on to the biblical record of their relationship in the matter of our redemption. In particular I wanted to give some thought to the subordination of the Word to the Father. I think the obvious starting point is Paul's letter to the Philippians which in the course of encouraging the saints to be of one mind Paul declares what can only have been direct revelation:“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Phil. 2:5-8, KJVS)“For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death — death even of a cross,” (Phil. 2:5-8, YNG)There are several amazing declarations in this section. The KJV phrase 'being in the form of God' is translated in the ASV as 'existing in the form of God'. This is a justifiable improvement, the verb is a present participle. We are touching here on the eternally existing Word of God and have stepped into the atmosphere of John 1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2, KJVS) We need to distinguish very clearly between 'being' and 'becoming'. The former is a simple description of eternal states, the latter is a calendar event; even though it may not be a human calendar. In John's record the 'being' of God is captured beautifully in the first two verses. John's narrative then moves on to his 'doings', the creation, and finally to his 'becomings'. We ought to pause here, even as we read, to consider the extraordinary statement that we find in John; the word 'became flesh' and dwelt among us (ASV. The KJV has 'was made' but the verb is really 'became' as is confirmed in most modern translations. The eternal, unchanging God... became... Selah, pause and ponder!But before 'he became' he already 'was'. He 'was'/existed in 'the form of God'. What does this mean? The word 'form' in Greek is 'morphE' but morphE does not just mean the outward shape, it means the outward shape by which something might be recognised. It reflects both 'inward essence and outward likeness'. Vines Expository Dictionary has morphe denotes "the special or characteristic form or feature" of a person or thing; it is used with particular significance in the NT, only of Christ, in Php_2:6,7, in the phrases "being in the form of God," and "taking the form of a servant." An excellent definition of the word is that of Gifford: "morphe is therefore properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists. ... Thus in the passage before us morphe Theou is the Divine nature actually and inseparably subsisting in the Person of Christ. ... For the interpretation of 'the form of God' it is sufficient to say that\t1.\t\t2.\tit includes the whole nature and essence of Deity, and is inseparable from them, since they could have no actual existence without it; and \t3.\tthat it does not include in itself anything 'accidental' or separable, such as particular modes of manifestation, or conditions of glory and majesty, which may at one time be attached to the 'form,' at another separated from it. ...The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both." [ From Gillford, "The Incarnation," pp. 16,19,39.] The point made by Vine about the phrase being used later is important. The phrase 'in the form of a bondservant' cannot mean outward similarity. What 'shape' is a bondservant? It speaks of inward and outward likeness. We see other references to this unfathomable statement in the scripture. “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power...” (Heb. 1:3a, KJVS) and “...Christ, who is the image of God...” (2Cor. 4:4, KJVS) And perhaps best of all “Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (John 14:9, KJVS) He is seen in this opening statement as 'fully God', co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal.'In Paul's nativity narrative of Philippians 2 he follows the 'present participle' of 'existing' of 'being' with a series of Aorist tenses. The older language scholars all regarded the Greek Aorist as a punctiliar tense. This was a way of distinguishing from 'process' tenses such as 'he is sitting', 'he was sitting', 'he has sat and is still sitting' 'he will sit' (these are all 'process tenses) and the 'point of time' Aorist tense which would be 'he sat down'. The simple point I want to make is that the impression given in Phil 2 is now a series of single events;1. he thought (or chose not to 'think/esteem')2. he emptied himself3. he took upon himself4. he 'became' in the likeness of men5. having been found in fashion... he humbled himself6. he became obedient...I want to concentrate for the remainder of this post on the first of these. I don't usually recommend the Weymouth translation but in this instance I think it has caught the sense of this first 'event' beautifully “Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.” (Phil. 2:6, WEYMTH) To my understanding the use of the tenses here indicates an 'event', at a 'point of time' Christ Jesus made a choice and the choice was not to regard his equality with God as something to be 'held onto'. We may get a better sense of what is being said here if we remind ourselves as to why Paul wrote it. He wrote it to encourage the saints to 'esteem others better than themselves'. It is easy to forget that this whole wonderful section is serving as an illustration for the points Paul is making to the saints at Philippi. The word 'equal' is 'isos' which are are familiar with as a prefix in words like 'isosceles' which literally means having 'equal legs'. (pick up any English dictionary and you will find lots of illustrations as to how the prefix 'iso' is used.) Quite simply 'isos' means equal and the verse says that Christ Jesus did not regard his equal-ness with God to be something to be held onto. This is one of the plainest statement in the scripture of Christ's co-equality with the Father. The KJV has the phrase 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God', the word 'robbery' is 'harpagma'which is a linked to a similar word which was used for a 'grappling iron'. He decided not to 'cling onto' his equality with God. I am sure there was never any competitiveness within the godhead but this seems to tell of a specific 'time' when Christ chose to 'think' in a particular way. It was a decision and an event. Its outworking would have to take place in 'human time' but here we are beyond 'human time' and being given a glimpse into the 'eternal counsels' of God. The KJV 'Let this mind...' is beautifully expressed in Weymouth's paraphrase “Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus.” (Phil. 2:5, WEYMTH) This is a chosen disposition; amazing concept. We sometimes hear preachers say Christ 'had to do this' and 'had to come'. There is truth in these sayings but it all began in a time where he 'had to do nothing' but freely chose not to 'cling onto' equality with God. This has far-reaching implications but this is long enough for a single post. :-(

This has far-reaching implications but this is long enough for a single postI am immediately challenged by this post as I consider how essential this "chosen disposition" is to our Christian lives. It is unfathomable to me that Christ our Lord would have a mindset in which He was did not see it necessary to assert His Deity or as the passages say, did not 'grasp' His equality within the Godhead. It is hard to comprehend that level of humility!As human beings we don't like to part with things do we? We don't like to give things up. We like to grasp everything that is 'ours'. We grasp our goods, our authority, our reputation, etc. etc. Until we "let this mind be in us", that we should not 'grasp' things we are not fit to be able to rightly function as a Christian. How can a man turn the other cheek if he 'grasps' his reputation or sense of self-respect? Is that really at the root of why we would have trouble letting folks sins/transgressions against us 'drop'? We can't drop their sin, because we have grasped our own reputation and sense of pride. If we refuse to be wronged is it not a symptom that we are grasping something of our own self-love that we need to turn loose of? And beyond that, is not this "chosen disposition" at the very root of the fruit of the Spirit?

Robert's It is hard to comprehend that level of humility!And we haven't even got to the 'he humbled himself' section yet! :-o

The true garment of humility Christ Himself. Putting Him on is the only true humility we can acquire. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].In Christ's Humility: Phillip

The true garment of humility Christ Himself. Putting Him on is the only true humility we can acquire. There is a truth here in which I delight however we must not miss other truths.“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1Cor. 13:11, KJVS) There are states and actions and we must not confuse the two. Paul came to the state of manhood as a result of natural processes in which he was mostly passive; we do not grow by effort (Matt 6:27ff) We might even take Paul's words as a parallel to those of Philippians 2; "being found as a man, he did something". he "put away the things of his childhood". In this is almost a characteristic of manhood. The "man" takes responsibility for his actions and consequently is praised or blamed. Paul 'put away' things of the childhood state. They were not taken from him "passively" nor did this happen automatically, he actively "put away childish things". Virtue does not happen "passively"; it is the consequence of personal choice and personal activity.This truth is seen in Paul's famous Galatians quotation: “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Gal. 2:20, KJVS) In the light of this verse is it important to ask 'who lives this life'? It is a paradox. He says "I but not I" but then goes on to "Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God... This 'life' is not 'happening' to Paul, he is 'living' it. If we get to the later part of Philippians 2 we will find the purpose for which Paul used the illustration. It it because we are required to 'work out our own salvation' because "it is God who worketh in you". This is a New Covenant imperative, we must 'work out' what God has 'worked in'. The power to choose is part of essential personhood; Christ had it, angels have it, I have it. As a Christian I will not be held responsible for the life that is in me; that is a free gift. But I will be held responsible for what I did with what I was given.My point in reference to Christ was not to his 'state' of humility but to the 'act' of self-humbling in which He freely chose to 'humble himself'. It did not occur passively or simply because of the 'life that was in him', but was the active execution of a specific choice: so must ours be.

Yes, if we read what God has done in Christ Jesus for us, what we do is very small in comparison. All that He is we are and what we do is make sure He is the one we are bringing forth, that others will see Him. If we read just a small bit of Col: we see what God has done and what He expects us to do.Colossians 1:3-29 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily. We do the preaching, we do the warning, we do the teaching, we labor to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, we strive according to His working in us. Yes, we have a great responsibility to do the work of Christ on this earth. In all humility knowing that it is Christ in us that will accomplish the will of the Father, we are the workman in His harvest field. What a great responsibility it is to do the work that a loving God gives His children. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Who lives the life we have been given? We do. Who lives by the faith of the Son of God which has been given us? We do.Without Christ we can do nothing, with Christ we can do all things. It is just our spiritual service that we present our bodies the living sacrifice to accomplish the Works of Christ in us. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

MeAgainThis is a great compilation! Thank you.

Statment about Jesus, Son of God, the Word before His incarnation, and looking for clarification:If God is never changing, He must have had Glorified flesh before His incarnation eternaly, the kind He has now. Otherwise God would have changed.

Thanks for bringing this back up Logic. It's a tremendous thread.

If God is never changing, He must have had Glorified flesh before His incarnation eternaly, the kind He has now. Otherwise God would have changed.Hi Logic,Appearently overlooked this last night even as I was glad to see the thread back up again, it really is a jewel to read through.You did say 'clarification' here and think this is a misunderstanding in what is meant by "I change not."The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.A bad analogy but putting on a jacket doesn't change you, it just makes you warmer.

crsschk wrote:The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.A bad analogy but putting on a jacket doesn't change you, it just makes you warmer.I am not only talking about HIS earthly fleash, but also HIS eternal body being glorified flesh now and forever and also from eternaty past.That would not be like putting a jacket on, because if He didn't have glorified fleash before His Earthly apperance, that would change His essance. Like if the Holy Spirit wasn't a Spirit before time.So Jesus must have eternaly with glorified fleash accept during his time on Earth.

I am sorry for digressing here, but I just took the time... the last 3 days to read through this thread. As I read, I felt the hearts of those who strive to know God. I experienced a wonderful time with my brothers in Christ. What I found that is wonderful, is that, He is working to bring the unity that is found in Christ. There seems to be two sides to the discussion, yet it is our understanding that seperates us. Again please forgive me for adding my two cents...In Christ Jeff

Brother Beenblake wrote:The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The Holy Spirit is God's presence. By this, the Holy Spirit is God's wisdom. The Holy Spirit knows all things. Many people think that Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking about Jesus. Rather, I believe this passage is speaking about the Holy Spirit. The passage personifies wisdom. However, in doing so, it does not use the pronoun "he" rather it uses the pronoun "she." I believe that the Holy Spirit is the daughter of God, and the use of "she" in this passage clearly establishes this. However, the Holy Spirit has been referenced as "He" in the new testament. What about that? The Holy Spirit is God. And so, it is clear that we should call the Holy Spirit "He" in order to establish this. Proverbs 1:20-23 20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. The above scripture clearly establishes that Wisdom is a "she." One of the things I think is interesting is how Wisdom is described as calling out asking people to turn at her reproof. This to me is the exact description of the Holy Spirit convicting a person. It then says "I will pour my spirit unto you." If we listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and become saved, the Holy Spirit then fills us. Proverbs 2:10-12 10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things; It says, "when wisdom entereth into thine heart." The Holy Spirit fills our heart, and when it does, we are filled with joy as described above. Proverbs 7:1-4 1 Follow my advice, my son; always treasure my commands. 2 Obey them and live! Guard my teachings as your most precious possession. 3 Tie them on your fingers as a reminder. Write them deep within your heart. 4 Love wisdom like a sister; make insight a beloved member of your family. Many times in proverbs, it begins the conversation saying "my son". Whoever is speaking in these passages, they are obviously speaking to "my son." Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the son of Solomon. Whether it is God speaking, or King Solomon speaking, it is clear that the proverbs is speaking to Jesus. The proverbs is speaking about Wisdom to Jesus. The above scripture clearly tells the son to "Love wisdom like a sister." If Wisdom is the Holy Spirit, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit is the sister of Jesus. Proverbs 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man." The Holy Spirit is calling to the sons of man that they may be convicted of thier sins and may turn to the son of God. Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. The Holy Spirit has been called the Spirit of truth. Wisdom, according to the scripture above, speaks truth. Notice the difference here. Jesus said He was the truth. However, the Holy Spirit speaks to the truth. Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: John 16:7-8 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Is not the parallel between these two scriptures clearly apparent? Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Jesus died for our sins. The Holy Spirit calls us to repentence. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. And so, when we reject this calling, and do not turn to Christ and accept His free gift of grace, we are condemned to eteral death. Based upon all this, is it any wonder that...... The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not the (daughter) as you suggested but is the "woman" that we find in Scripture...Genesis 3:15Gen. 3:15 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;...Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:\t“Rejoice, O barren,\tYou who do not bear!\tBreak forth and shout,\tYou who are not in labor!\tFor the desolate has many more children\tThan she who has a husband.”In ChristJeff

Brother Beenblake wrote:26On the surface it does appear that Jesus has in fact a seperate will from the Father. There are several other scriptures that confirm this as well. (John 5:30; 6:38) Jesus is God and man. The will Jesus is spoken of as shown in Luke 22:24 is not one of divine volition but of earthly volition designated by the flesh. This is made clear by John 5:30. Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Notice that the scripture says, "I can of mine own self do nothing." If Jesus is indeed God, and one of the three in the GodHead, then He is completely divine in all ways and He is complete in all ways. If a person says, "Jesus needs the father" then Jesus is not in fact complete because He needs the father. In the above scripture however, Jesus says that He can of His own self do nothing. This obviously establishes that Jesus, apart from God as an independent self, can do nothing. This suggests that apart from God, Jesus is just flesh. And so, the will that Jesus is speaking when He says, "not mine own will" is referring to the will designated to Him by His flesh, and not the divine will of God. In John 1:13, "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man." The greek word used here is the same greek word used in Luke 22:43. This indicates that the flesh has a will and that man has a will. In Eph 2:3, the same greek word is used, except it is translated "desire." The verse says, "the desires of the flesh and of the mind...". Are the will of the flesh and of the mind the same will, or seperate? I don't know. The point of this is to establish that the flesh has a will independent of the spirit. The conflict of these two is problematic for us. Paul speaks about this in Galatians: Galatians 5:17 (KJSV) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Jesus lived in the flesh and thus was tempted in all ways just as we are tempted. The conflict of the will of the flesh and the will of God existed in Him. This was definitely highlighted by the experience at Gethsemane. We struggle with this everyday. This is very good...Paul taught this in Romans 7 and 8...Romans 718 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. Romans 8 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:\t“You are a priest forever\tAccording to the order of Melchizedek”; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Jesus overcame the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit...In ChristJeff

Brother Ron (the greater) wrote:and the Light shines in the darknessJohn now switches tenses from the ‘imperfect’ to the ‘present’. John sometimes uses these present tenses in his vivid narratives. They give an immediate sense to the story, but they can also have other implications. John is not just thinking about the event of the incarnation, but of the continuing process right up to the present moment; the Light is still shining in the darkness.John will move on shortly to speak of the witness of John Baptist, but at this stage he has in mind the continuing witness of the Light. John was a lamp; "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. (Joh 5:35-36 NASB) The lamp was extinguished but the light shines on. There is nowhere so dark that the Light is not still shining there. In that very darkness the Light still shines.and the darkness has not overcome it. This is the way the ESV and a few other versions translates this verse. The KJV has ‘the darkness comprehended it not’. The word can mean ‘apprehend’ but also in the way a criminal might be apprehended. The word was one used of a cat pinning down a mouse. The impression is that the ‘darkness’ attempted to hold down the light, but could not. This impression is carried through again in John’s changing tenses. ‘The Light is still shining in the darkness and the darkness did not extinguish it’.This is a wonderful thought brought to clarity by you...AlsoLikewise with this thought...which lighteth every man, coming into the world. Again John switches the tenses. This is not saying that at the moment of everyman’s entry into the world he is illuminated, but that every man is illuminated by the Light that is coming into the world. There is no man or woman who will not, in some measure, be illuminated by that Light which came into the world. The Light, who always was, is coming into the world. These are amazing statements which familiarity can easily rob us of. The Word, who is the unchanging God is ‘moving’, coming into the world. The Creator has constantly ‘entered’ His creation by the Light, just as the sun’s rays have penetrated into our world, but John is moving towards his goal here. He is about to make a carefully prepared statement of breathtaking audacity; a statement that would be an offence to Greek and Hebrew philosophy alike, but he prepares his ground first... In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote on page 23...Quote: I said, "We are born again of the Spirit, yet not without the use of means, but by the Word of God. The word is the beggeting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power Of Christ in you the hope of Glory. This is very good Brother...In ChristJeff

Sis asked:In this quote from you: "I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."This was written Pre-Incarnation, so are we not "splitting" Elohim, Who operated as ONE God, by saying what you've said above ?I believe that Melchizedeck is Christ and that He is the only One who could ever occupy and operate as the High Priest of God. No other man could ever share in the order of Melchizedeck. I authored a thread a long time ago concerning Melchizedeck. Secondly, I teach that all the OT saints were born from above. Both of these positions have caused much debate here on this forum..In term of your second request, I will read it and get back to you...In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff,Quote:"Secondly, I teach that all the OT saints were born from above."How? Where? When?In Christ: Phillip

Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,\tAnd treasure my commands within you, 2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,\tAnd apply your heart to understanding; 3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding, 4 \tIf you seek her as silver,\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,\tAnd find the knowledge of God. 6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,\tAnd preserves the way of His saints. 9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,\tEquity and every good path. 10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul, For what purpose does God supply wisdom?11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;\tUnderstanding will keep you, 12 \tTo deliver you from the way of evil,\tFrom the man who speaks perverse things, 13 \tFrom those who leave the paths of uprightness\tTo walk in the ways of darkness; Wisdom which comes from God is righteousness. This wisdom knows nothing of man's fallen ways. The contents of this wisdom describes Christ. The contents of the wisdom conforms one into the image of the Son. Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,\tAnd understanding lift up her voice? 2 \tShe takes her stand on the top of the high hill,\tBeside the way, where the paths meet. 3 \tShe cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,\tAt the entrance of the doors: 4 \t“To you, O men, I call,\tAnd my voice is to the sons of men. 5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart. 6 \tListen, for I will speak of excellent things,\tAnd from the opening of my lips will come right things; Listen to what she brings...And then listen to what results...34 \tBlessed is the man who listens to me,\tWatching daily at my gates,\tWaiting at the posts of my doors. 35 \tFor whoever finds me finds life,\tAnd obtains favor from the LORD; 36 \tBut he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;\tAll those who hate me love death.” Jesus said to Nicodemus...11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. What is it that Jesus and his disciples testify of? In ChristJeff

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.Prov. 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,And treasure my commands within you, 2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver,And search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,And find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD gives wisdom;From His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 He guards the paths of justice,And preserves the way of His saints. 9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,Equity and every good path. 10 When wisdom enters your heart,And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,This is Christ. We are sons by Him that is in us. Did He receive God's Words? This is the WHEN> He had to be sent. Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Jhn 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Jhn 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. This is the Where, The Cross. For what purpose does God supply wisdom? Wisdom can only enter by the Christ that is in us, that was sent for that purpose.1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is.Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.This is the HOW. Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.IN Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:This is the WHEN> He had to be sent. Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. Two questions;First, who sent Melchizedeck to Abraham?Second, for what purpose did the priestly Order of Melchizedeck exist during Abraham's time? In ChristJeff

Sister Anne asked:In this quote from you: "I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."This was written Pre-Incarnation, so are we not "splitting" Elohim, Who operated as ONE God, by saying what you've said above ?First, I need to be more clear as to what I was speaking of in Proverbs 1-8 and especially 8. Genesis 3:1515 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;I believe the woman here in Genesis speaks of the Holy Spirit's work in those who she births. The outcome or the essence of her work conforms the child into the Seed, who is Jesus Christ. This work has been predestined...Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. So in Proverbs, we see that Solomon is teaching the same precept. The woman here speaks...Proverbs 12 \tTo know wisdom and instruction,\tTo perceive the words of understanding, 3 \tTo receive the instruction of wisdom,\tJustice, judgment, and equity; 4 \tTo give prudence to the simple,\tTo the young man knowledge and discretion— 5 \tA wise man will hear and increase learning,\tAnd a man of understanding will attain wise counsel, 6 \tTo understand a proverb and an enigma,\tThe words of the wise and their riddles. 7 \tThe fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,\tBut fools despise wisdom and instruction. 8 \tMy son, hear the instruction of your father,\tAnd do not forsake the law of your mother; It is by means of the Holy Spirit that God speaks...It is by the means of the Holy Spirit that one is birthed by God. What is it that saves an individual...Proverbs 2:1 My son, if you receive my words,\tAnd treasure my commands within you, 2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,\tAnd apply your heart to understanding; 3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding, 4 \tIf you seek her as silver,\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures; 5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,\tAnd find the knowledge of God. 6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly; 8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,\tAnd preserves the way of His saints. 9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,\tEquity and every good path. 10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul, 11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;\tUnderstanding will keep you, Wisdom and knowledge of who? Who only is the King of Righteousness? Who only is the King of Peace? It is Christ. All wisdom, all knowledge of Christ is given to us by the Holy Spirit birthing in us the things of Christ. The Seed of the woman reveals Spirit of Christ in us. Isaiah 28:7 \tBut they also have erred through wine,\tAnd through intoxicating drink are out of the way;\tThe priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,\tThey are swallowed up by wine,\tThey are out of the way through intoxicating drink;\tThey err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 \tFor all tables are full of vomit and filth;\tNo place is clean.9 \t“Whom will he teach knowledge?\tAnd whom will he make to understand the message?\tThose just weaned from milk?\tThose just drawn from the breasts? 10 \tFor precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,\tLine upon line, line upon line,\tHere a little, there a little.” 11 \tFor with stammering lips and another tongue\tHe will speak to this people, 12 \tTo whom He said, “This is the rest with which\tYou may cause the weary to rest,”\tAnd, “This is the refreshing”;\tYet they would not hear. These people spoken of in Isaiah, 9 \t“Whom will he teach knowledge?\tAnd whom will he make to understand the message?\tThose just weaned from milk?\tThose just drawn from the breasts? 10 \tFor precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,\tLine upon line, line upon line,\tHere a little, there a little.” Those just weaned from milk, those just drawn from the breasts, speaks of a people who have witnessed the Word through the Holy Spirit, they are simple in their understanding. Just like those Solomon teaches about in Proverbs 1-8Proverb 81 Does not wisdom cry out,\tAnd understanding lift up her voice? 2 \tShe takes her stand on the top of the high hill,\tBeside the way, where the paths meet. 3 \tShe cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,\tAt the entrance of the doors: 4 \t“To you, O men, I call,\tAnd my voice is to the sons of men. 5 \tO you simple ones, understand prudence,\tAnd you fools, be of an understanding heart. 6 \tListen, for I will speak of excellent things,\tAnd from the opening of my lips will come right things; This is the Holy Spirit's work. "Listen, for I will speak of excellent things...32 \t“Now therefore, listen to me, my children,\tFor blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 \tHear instruction and be wise,\tAnd do not disdain it.34 \tBlessed is the man who listens to me,\tWatching daily at my gates,\tWaiting at the posts of my doors. 35 \tFor whoever finds me finds life,\tAnd obtains favor from the LORD; "For whoever finds me finds life....And obtains favor from the LORD.... Prov. 9:10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Hos. 11:12 \t“Ephraim has encircled Me with lies,\tAnd the house of Israel with deceit;\tBut Judah still walks with God,\tEven with the Holy One who is faithful. Mark 1:24 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!” Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Acts 2:27 \tFor You will not leave my soul in Hades,\tNor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.1John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. Jer. 23:5 \t“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,\t“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;\tA King shall reign and prosper,\tAnd execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 \tIn His days Judah will be saved,\tAnd Israel will dwell safely;\tNow this is His name by which He will be called:\t\tTHE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer. 33:15 \t“In those days and at that time\tI will cause to grow up to David\tA Branch of righteousness;\tHe shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. 16 \tIn those days Judah will be saved,\tAnd Jerusalem will dwell safely.\tAnd this is the name by which she will be called:\t\tTHE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’ Our High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedeck has always been the mediator between the Father and the sons of men. In ChristJeff

Sister Annie wrote:So I'm still fearing we are "splitting up" the One True God, Elohim by saying that it was the Holy Spirit -- that you call "she" - right ? --- and not seeing that He is and always will be ONE God. The HOLY Spirit being called The Spirit of God and Christ.Paul in his letter to the Galatians writes: 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:\t“Rejoice, O barren,\tYou who do not bear!\tBreak forth and shout,\tYou who are not in labor!\tFor the desolate has many more children\tThan she who has a husband.”Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Who is the woman that both Isaac and us are born of? In ChristJeff

Dear Annie, The long pages of discussion that have proceeded has been over this very topic of the oneness of God. I do not think anyone here would disagree concerning the oneness of God, in that, God is completely unified in measure beyond human understanding. Brother Jeff, in addition to those who have adopted the doctrine of the trinity (not to say brother Jeff has adopted the trinity), are not trying to divide God into parts, but rather they are embracing the uniqueness of three intimate "persons" in the "godhead." As such, they believe that God is three persons united into one, a tri-unity. These three are individable, meaning that God is not able to be divided into three. God is one. And yet, there are distinctions to three that establish an important unity that speaks to the greatness of God. As far as the discussion has proceeded, no one who believes in the doctrine of the trinity has been able to explain how God is three in one. As such, this is called the mystery of the trinity. They know God is one, and this is important. They also know the bible speaks about three different "persons" (this is an essential word to the doctrine of the trinity). There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As such, each of these persons are unique and are not the other. However, they are one, and thus form the "godhead." Basically, to say it in simple terms, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. People are quick to point out that if you say Jesus is the Father, then it means the Father died on the cross. How can that be? Jeff, in the above, was trying to establish that Proverbs 8 was speaking to the person of the Holy Spirit and not the person of the Son. Others have said that Proverbs 8 is speaking to the Son, who is the Logos, or the Word of God. I do not think Jeff was trying to divide God into three parts. He was just trying to establish the uniqueness of one. (Correct me if I am wrong Jeff.) In the discussion, if you read through all the layers of posts in this thread, you will discover a large debate over the Trinity where this very topic has been discussed. How is it that God is one and yet He is three? Is God three persons in one? Or is God one? I think just about every viewpoint on this topic in history has been mentioned and debated.I hope this helps some, In love and In Christ,Blake

Quote:"First, who sent Melchizedeck to Abraham?"Why are we even considering Melchizedeck or Abraham. They have nothing to do with the Christ that is in us and the Body of Christ His Church. We are not Israel, we have nothing to do with Israel. We were crucified with Christ and it is no longer we who live but Christ who live in us.Melchizedeck may have been Christ, but not the Christ born of Mary, Fathered by God our Father whom Jesus made Clear that He is His Father and our Father. Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. This is a New Gospel, that Abraham did not have and we are not to deal with any other Gospel other than the One Paul has brought to us. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:Only David is mentioned showing completeness in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Paul to us. We will not be ruled by Jesus Christ from the throne of David, Israel will and over all Gentile Nations of the World in the millennial Kingdom from the New Jerusalem on this earth. All Christians are to be with Christ. 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:Galatians 1:6-12 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Moses' Gospel is not our Gospel.By the Power of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in all Those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, saved and going to the Father House which Christ is preparing for us that believe. Matthew 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.The Rock is the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is what Jesus Christ will build His Church on, the Revelation given to Paul of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

Sis wrote:But this woman, as seen also in Revelations, is not the "she" in Prv. 8.There is something that one must come to understand before one can see the woman in Revelation, the woman in Galatians, and the woman in Genesis, and finally the woman in Proverbs, is the same. As Paul teaches about this woman, he says...24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Paul states that these things are symbolic...To understand more fully have you considered this Scripture...Isaiah 7Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.” Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!” Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Now we know that part of this Scripture is used to describe the birth of Jesus. Yet what does verse 15 and 16 mean to King Ahaz? In ChristJeff

Brother Blake wrote:Brother Jeff, in addition to those who have adopted the doctrine of the trinity (not to say brother Jeff has adopted the trinity), are not trying to divide God into parts, but rather they are embracing the uniqueness of three intimate "persons" in the "godhead." As Sister Annie wrote in another thread, one must read and meditate on the "whole counsel of God." One must read the Scriptures without fear of men. I myself have not come to any conclusions as to what I believe about the doctrine of the trinity or the understanding that you put forth here. I do not think Jeff was trying to divide God into three parts. He was just trying to establish the uniqueness of one. (Correct me if I am wrong Jeff.) I just have never thought about what I believe in the frame work of this discussion. I only teach about what I myself have come to understand based on my relationship with my Lord. As Sister Annie wrote about the search for the truth in Scripture, this endeavor will take the rest of my life. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here alittle there alittle. I don't know when "alittle" will come.In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Why are we even considering Melchizedeck or Abraham. They have nothing to do with the Christ that is in us and the Body of Christ His Church. Why did Paul teach about the New Covenant starting with Abraham and not with Pentecost. The Rock is the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is what Jesus Christ will build His Church on, the Revelation given to Paul of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.This Rock Paul taught about in 1 Corinthians 10 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. There are many things which Paul taught about that are difficult to understand... this is just one of them.Keep on keepin on Brother Phillip...In ChristJeff

Quote:"Why did Paul teach about the New Covenant starting with Abraham and not with Pentecost?"The New Covenant in Christ did not start with Abraham or at Pentecost. The New Covenant in Christ started with Christ, and He is the barer of this New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.This has nothing to do with The Promises God made to Israel through Abraham, All the promises to Abraham will be fulfilled, but not in the dispensation of Grace by Jesus Christ. This is not an earthly promise to Abraham or Israel but a complete different Covenant in Christ Jesus, who shed His Blood for that Covenant. 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.This is directed to Christ Ones, not to Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile, person or Nation, or any other principality or power that can overcome this new Covenant. This is not the promises made to Abraham. Romans 8:34-39 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.We have one Priest and we are His priests', So much more that was promised to Abraham in the flesh. Hebrews 7:20-28 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, (because of The High Priest Jesus Christ that is In us) who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: FOR THIS HE DID ONCE, when he offered up Himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.WHO MAKETH US SONS'. Birthed son's of God, not promised sons' of Abraham. Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.This is a must not a promise to Abraham. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.This is the mighty rushing wind that came at Pentecost, The Birth of the Body of Christ being Born Again in us and the Cloven Tongues of Fire the evidence of The Spirit of Christ being Born Again in the believer and then also, Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Pureness of speaking the language of the New Covenant of Christ by the power of The Holy Spirit. Which they did not understand and God sent Paul to bring the pureness of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to light. Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. How are we judged?In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:e New Covenant in Christ did not start with Abraham or at Pentecost. The New Covenant in Christ started with Christ, and He is the barer of this New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.Many teach of Jesus beginning in the NT... Yet consider these Scriptures...Here an angel of God spoke to Mary...Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Here demons recognize Jesus and call Him the Holy One..Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice, 34 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!” Here Peter identified Jesus as the Holy One...Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. Here John identifies Jesus as the Holy One...1John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. In the OT Hosea speaks of this Holy One...Hos. 11:8 \t“How can I give you up, Ephraim?\tHow can I hand you over, Israel?\tHow can I make you like Admah?\tHow can I set you like Zeboiim?\tMy heart churns within Me;\tMy sympathy is stirred. 9 \tI will not execute the fierceness of My anger;\tI will not again destroy Ephraim.\tFor I am God, and not man,\tThe Holy One in your midst;\tAnd I will not come with terror. 10 \t“They shall walk after the LORD.\tHe will roar like a lion.\tWhen He roars,\tThen His sons shall come trembling from the west; 11 \tThey shall come trembling like a bird from Egypt,\tLike a dove from the land of Assyria.\tAnd I will let them dwell in their houses,”\tSays the LORD. 12 \t“Ephraim has encircled Me with lies,\tAnd the house of Israel with deceit;\tBut Judah still walks with God,\tEven with the Holy One who is faithful. Isaiah speaks of this Holy One...Is. 60:8 \t“Who are these who fly like a cloud,\tAnd like doves to their roosts? 9 \tSurely the coastlands shall wait for Me;\tAnd the ships of Tarshish will come first,\tTo bring your sons from afar,\tTheir silver and their gold with them,\tTo the name of the LORD your God,\tAnd to the Holy One of Israel,\tBecause He has glorified you. Search the Scriptures, find this Holy One...In ChristJeff

Here is another Scripture which speaks of the Holy One, Prov. 30:2 \tSurely I am more stupid than any man,\tAnd do not have the understanding of a man. 3 \tI neither learned wisdom\tNor have knowledge of the Holy One. 4 \tWho has ascended into heaven, or descended?\tWho has gathered the wind in His fists?\tWho has bound the waters in a garment?\tWho has established all the ends of the earth?\tWhat is His name, and what is His Son’s name,\tIf you know? In the last sentence..."What is His name, and what is His Son's name...Prov. 9:9 \tGive instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser;\tTeach a just man, and he will increase in learning. 10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. 11 \tFor by me your days will be multiplied,\tAnd years of life will be added to you. Psa. 78:40 \tHow often they provoked Him in the wilderness,\tAnd grieved Him in the desert! 41 \tYes, again and again they tempted God,\tAnd limited the Holy One of Israel. 42 \tThey did not remember His power:\tThe day when He redeemed them from the enemy, Remember what Paul taught to the Corinthians?1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Do you see Christ in the OT leading those who are His?In ChristJeff

Why do you seek Christ in the Old Testament? Christ is the Word of God, He is the Whole of the Bible. If we do not see Christ in the Old Testament, we miss the whole plan of God, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, I am not concerned about Israel, She is in very capable Hands and He will not forsake His wife as we see in Hosea. We are concerned with Christ and Who He is to His Body the Church. Which is now. Why be concerned with anything else but NOW, and the future If God Permits. The old man, the old testament, the old life is no more, behold all things have become new in Christ Jesus our Lord.Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:We are concerned with Christ and Who He is to His Body the Church. Which is now.When Peter preached in Acts 3:12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. Peter refers to Jesus as the Prince, the Holy One, and the Servant. What is revealed in the OT concerning the Holy One, the Prince, and the Servant? Then Peter goes on to talk about Abraham;25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, “And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” Those who lived by faith in the OT were the "called out" just like those who live in the church age. What is "now" is not new but has always been the "ancient path." To know Christ and the mysteries of God, one will find the Godhead revealed in the OT.I encourage you to grow in understanding of the NT by what is revealed in the OT. I once believed all I needed was found in the NT...I have learned that the Spirit makes foolish the wisdom of men.Isaiah 29:Is. 29:11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.”And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” Is. 29:12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, “Read this, please.”And he says, “I am not literate.” Is. 29:13 Therefore the Lord said:\t“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths\tAnd honor Me with their lips,\tBut have removed their hearts far from Me,\tAnd their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men, 14 \tTherefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work\tAmong this people,\tA marvelous work and a wonder;\tFor the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,\tAnd the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.” God promised to "again do a marvelous work." Understanding can only come to those whom He opens the book to. James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. Faith that is birthed by God produces the same kind of children, they all are being conformed into the image of His Son. The faith of Abraham creates the same results as the faith of Paul. They were both birthed by the woman and her Seed. In ChristJeff

Of course Peter spoke from the old testament, that is all he knew. What He said about Christ was what he knew by living with Jesus for three years who was offering the Kingdom to Israel with Him as their King and Lord. They did not accept Him as such and the parable of the householder who planted a vineyard, which is God and the House of Israel. Matthew 21:37-39 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. This is what Peter was preaching to the men of Israel. There is nothing about the Cross and Christ being born again in the believer, the mystery which God gave to Paul 15 years later. What Peter was preaching and what Paul would eventually preach is completely different. Peter was still preaching works, repent and be baptized. Paul, when the mystery was revealed to him was preaching only believe and you will be saved and salvation is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, fulfilling Christ's statement, "you must be born again or you cannot see the things or inter into the of the Kingdom of God." John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Peter was preaching Flesh, Paul was preaching Spirit as John confirms in John 14,15,16,27.You wrote:"Peter refers to Jesus as the Prince, the Holy One, and the Servant. What is revealed in the OT concerning the Holy One, the Prince, and the Servant?"Paul refers to Jesus as the, He was the Christ like Peter, That's pretty much where it ends for quite a while until Peter saw that Christ was the Incorruptable Seed that it takes to be born again which he never mentioned in any of his preaching in Acts.Paul's ministry began with his earliest letters to the Thessalonians and in Romans he declares his intentions. Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace and Peace. Then declaring his revelation from Jesus Christ Himself as, Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. My Gospel, declaring righteousness of God by the faith of Jesus Christ for those that believe. Also justification and redemption in Christ. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:The atonement, Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Abundance of Grace defeating death, Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Baptized into His death, freedom from sin, Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.No condemnation in Christ, Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Free from sin and death and our bodies even quickened to contain Christ in you, the Father in you, The Holy Spirit in you. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.That we may glorify God the Father, Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Confirming Christs ministry to Israel which they refused. Also confirming Paul's ministry to the gentiles which they will hear. Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.Even the bruising of Satan by the feet of believers, Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.Called by God to fellowship with Christ, 1Cr 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.We have the wisdom of Christ, the righteousness and sanctified and redeemed in Christ. 1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: We need nothing but Christ the foundation stone, 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. God has Washed, sanctified, justified us by Christ in us, 1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.This is just Romans and a little of Corinthians, I think Peter's preaching is lacking when it comes to Paul's direct revelation of Christ in us the Hope of Glory and all of what it entails for the Born Again. All Peter knew was Jesus of Nazareth the man, whom we are not to know Him as such anymore. 2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. Eph 3:16 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; You wrote;"They were both birthed by the woman and her Seed."Abraham was not born again, and could not be, but will be. Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: WE are not a people, son's of Israel. We are son's of God by Jesus Christ in us.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:What Peter was preaching and what Paul would eventually preach is completely different. Peter was still preaching works, repent and be baptized.Were the people who listened to Peter, who were added to the Church daily healed? If so, by what means did God heal them? If they enter His church, is not Christ in them? Paul refers to Jesus as the, He was the Christ like Peter, That's pretty much where it ends for quite a while until Peter saw that Christ was the Incorruptable Seed that it takes to be born again which he never mentioned in any of his preaching in Acts.This thread is about the godhead, do you see Christ leading His people in the OT?Who is the Holy One of the OT?Who is Melchizedech?In ChristJeff

"Were the people who listened to Peter, who were added to the Church daily healed? If so, by what means did God heal them? If they enter His church, is not Christ in them?"HI Jeff, Yes they had Christ in them but they did not know it until it was revealed by Paul. Even Peter said, "2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."The Old Testament is Christ, the New Testament is Christ. They have a different dispensation of time in there presentation of Jesus Christ. Yes, He is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, but Melchizedeck and The Christ of the Cross are different in there application when it comes to salvation, One by Law and one by Grace through Faith and New Birth. Abraham and Melchizedeck did not have Life in them, they only had obedience rewards. The Melchizedeck (if you will) of the Cross is Life and Grace Through Faith unto new Creatures Born Again of The Father's Seed.I know that dispensationalism is a bad word to a lot of People and the word means economy. Dispensation: 3622. oikonomiaSearch for G3622 in KJVSLoikonomia oikonomia oy-kon-om-ee'-ahfrom 3623; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.The economy of Israel is not the economy of the Church. The economy of Russia is not the same as the U. S. People are dealt with different in Russia than they deal with people in the U.S.The Same In the Old Testament. God is not dealing with the Church the same as He dealt with Israel. Same God, different economy, dispensation of time, if you will. Same God, dealing with the economy of the Church different from Israel. Salvation not by obedience to the Law, but salvation by believing in the Son of God. No more law to condemn but Grace to set free The body of Christ the Church. Love and the commandments of Christ are easy to accomplish in the economy of Christ in You the Hope of Glory. What did Christ say He would build His Church on, The Revelation the Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Not the chosen people of Israel who God Himself in the earthly temple dealt with them by Moses' economy.I am not an ultra dispensationalist or a keeper of dispensationalism out of religion. I see the division of Gods Word and Him dealing with His Creation in different ways in different allotted periods of time. As this is the economy of Grace an allotted period of time for the Body of Christ His Church. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Israel: Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? They do have a fullness of Time and that is when Jesus Christ sits on Davids Throne.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: but Melchizedeck and The Christ of the Cross are different in there application when it comes to salvation, One by Law and one by Grace through Faith and New Birth. Melchizedeck came to Abraham at least 430 years before the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai. In this "dispensation"-- for what pupose did the Priestly order of Melchizedeck exist? In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:The economy of Israel is not the economy of the Church. Psa. 30:1 \tI will extol You, O LORD, for You have lifted me up,\tAnd have not let my foes rejoice over me. 2 \tO LORD my God, I cried out to You,\tAnd You healed me. 3 \tO LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave;\tYou have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. In this Scripture we find that the Lord healed. What kind of healing has taken place? By what means was this man healed? And what is the result of the healing? (Spiritual or physical)In ChristJeff

"Melchizedeck came to Abraham at least 430 years before the Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai. In this "dispensation"-- for what pupose did the Priestly order of Melchizedeck exist?"

To bring forth the Incarnate Christ and the Cross of Christ becoming the birthed Seed of the Believer. Melchizedek had no seed or Cross in His economy or dispensation of time.

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

If Melchizedek was our High Priest Christ would have not come after the order of Him. Melchizedek was a shadow of the Christ we know that was to come and be completeness of The Word of God to fulfill the perfectness of our eternal salvation In Christ Jesus our Lord.

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hbr 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hbr 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

Not even Jesus Took this order of Himself but it was given when all things were perfect after Jesus had suffered, by His Father. This is a different Now.

Hebrews 5:4-10 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. And Now being made perfect He became the Author of eternal Salvation. Not until the Cross.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Melchizedek had no seed or Cross in His economy or dispensation of time.

The Cross has always existed for those who are His saints.

Psalm 116:

15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD
\tIs the death of His saints.

1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”

This Melchizedek who met Abraham had a Name..."king of righteousness,...king of peace."

Melchizedek was a shadow of the Christ

Christ is eternal, He was never a shadow...

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Why did you use just the part of the quote? Here is the whole quote:

Melchizedek was a shadow of the Christ we know that was to come and be completeness of The Word of God to fulfill the perfectness of our eternal salvation In Christ Jesus our Lord.

Melchizedek was king of righteousness, yes, but He was not our Righteousness and The Christ of the Cross is now. Christ is the same yesterday today and forever, and He will never do anything unless the Father tells Him. When the fullness of time was complete, He as Jesus Christ went to the Cross to fulfill the Word of God that we might be In Christ and not just pay Him 10% but give Him all, for He gave His all for us that He might be in us and not just a King but our Life.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote,

"The Cross has always existed for those who are His saints."

Where in scripture is the Cross of Christ and the sacrifice of the Blood of Christ on the altar of this earth, that all that believe might be saved by the Cross and the Blood of Him that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:

Where in scripture is the Cross of Christ and the sacrifice of the Blood of Christ on the altar of this earth, that all that believe might be saved by the Cross and the Blood of Him that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Even the goslpel was preached before Jesus and even before His cross.

[b]Hebrews 4:3[/b][color=990000] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although [b]the works were finished from the foundation of the world[/b].[/color]
&
[b]Revelation 13:8[/b] [color=990000] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world[/b].[/color]

These are not the Cross of Christ. These are only the foretelling of the promise that Christ would come. They did not have any Idea of the Cross, Christ the Messiah being killed by them, Christ taking all the sin of the world on Himself, put in a grave, resurrected, appearing, ascending, and coming back in the birthing of a new creature in the believer.

I may have the promise of a diamond being in the ground, but until I have it in my hand I don't know what it will take to know the diamond is mine. It took the Cross and resurrection and ascension and new birth for me to have the salvation and righteousness of Christ in me, this Christ of God is mine, as He was revealed to Paul and spoken to us by Paul by direct revelation form Jesus Christ Himself.. If Abraham was Faithful for the Seed to come. Why can we not see that Paul was Faithful to the Seed that has come. Only one has the Faithfulness in Himself and that is Christ. Righteousness was counted to Abraham, but Righteous is made in us by Christ Himself and that by His Faith, not counted but made righteous. 1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Things that Abraham did not have we have because of the Promise, not because of the Faith of Abraham. Only the Promise is in Hand if we are Born Again. We could not be born again unless the Cross of Christ did its work.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

These are not the Cross of Christ. These are only the foretelling of the promise that Christ would come. They did not have any Idea of the Cross, Christ the Messiah being killed by them, Christ taking all the sin of the world on Himself, put in a grave, resurrected, appearing, ascending, and coming back in the birthing of a new creature in the believer.

Psalm 116:

13 \tI will take up the cup of salvation,
\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD.
14 \tI will pay my vows to the LORD
\tNow in the presence of all His people.
15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD
\tIs the death of His saints.

When I brought this Scripture up to represent the Cross, I meant to show that the OT saints understood as we understand that those who live by faith will experience the death to the carnal man, the old man. Jesus said:

Matt. 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Jesus taught His disciples that they each had a cross. Please consider that at this time in Jesus' ministry, He had not even taught His disciples that He would Himself die on the cross.

Thoughtout Scripture we find that faith creates death and hope...

In Christ
Jeff

Brother wrote:;

Even the goslpel was preached before Jesus and even before His cross.

Hebrew 4:
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Just to add to your thought... in this Scripture it declares that the gospel was preached to the OT people also...and what seperated them from the rest? Most did not mix what they heard with faith...

In Christ
Jeff

Getting back to the "Godhead."

I have posted some thoughts concerning the Holy One in Scripture found in both the OT and the NT.

Here is another Scripture which speaks of the Godhead...

Matt. 23:7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, “Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called “Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

What does this mean, "One is your Teacher, the Christ...One is your Father, He who is in heaven...and again One is your Teacher, the Christ."

Is Jesus teaching Oneness as some believe of God as being one in substance before the incarnation, or is Jesus teaching that One is found in 3 persons?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother in Christ: Jeff wrote;

"Matt. 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Jesus taught His disciples that they each had a cross. Please consider that at this time in Jesus' ministry, He had not even taught His disciples that He would Himself die on the cross.

Where is my Cross? It is the Cross of Christ because I believe. Where must I die for my sin? I must die on the Cross I have taken up, which is the Cross of Christ because I believe.
Where did I loose my life and find it. I lost my life for His sake on the Cross with Him. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If I find my life in anything except the Cross of Christ, My life is worthless and condemned to hell. If the cross Is my cross, I have lost my life. There is no turning back, if I pick up my cross and even though I think I am carrying it for Christ, I am deceived and have already lost my life. My Cross is His Cross and that is what I must carry, in His Life, In His Strength, In His Love, In all that He is I am, I am a son of God by the Son that is in me. If I depend on my cross, I frustrate the Grace of God and am of no benefit to God. I may be saved because I believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, but I will never become what God wants His Children become in His Son. We must believe that we are already in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus or we will never grow in the things of God and His Kingdom.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Ephesians 1:18-19 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

In Christ, The Only Wisdom of God: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

We must believe that we are already in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus or we will never grow in the things of God and His Kingdom.

Scripture tells us that this is true brother. But the idea, "we must believe," finds its strength not in what we can muster up...nor thinking that we understand what Heavenly places in Christ Jesus might mean, might look like, might feel like. Rather it is the Holy Spirit that reveals the Heavenly...

I am not struggling against you brother, but struggling with words so that we together might come to a deeper understanding of where we are and how Christ creates the hope that is in us...

God Bless
Jeff

What truly is our place in Christ Jesus?

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The praise of Who's Glory?

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Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

On and On we could go, 146 times in Christ is spoken. What is this heavenly places in Christ Jesus? "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works". Who's workmanship? God the Father, has already placed us in Christ, and where is Christ? In Heavenly places, and if Christ is in us, where is the Heavenly place? You see we are the heavenly place that Christ dwells and the Holy Spirit dwells and the Father also. We are God's dwelling place, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, we Glory in Christ by God Himself who has made us a new creature in Christ Jesus. I don't have to see Christ to have Him in me. I don't see the wind but I know when it is blowing. I don't have to see Heaven to Have Heaven in me by the Christ that is in Heavenly Places. Are we not members of one another and one Body of Christ His Church. Satan can no longer take the gates of Hell into heavenly places. The Christ in us will no longer accept any accusations from Satan like Job, Christ in us already defeated Satan on the high place by the Word of God and the Cross, crushing his head.

If Christ be no risen our faith is dead. In other words without Christ in us, "if He be no risen" we don't have the Faith of the Son of God, which is heavenly Faith, and we cannot be in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus, But He is risen and our Faith is His Faith our Life is His life and our place is already in Heavenly Places. Every thought captive; 2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
This is where our Heavenly Place is, it is the knowledge of Christ In us the Hope of Glory. Thought, the soul mind, is where we are to be in heavenly places, if the Spirit of Christ be in you, We are to know, again Know that we are already in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus, and on Resurrection morning we will be translated physically into the Kingdom House our prepared place of our Dear Father, but until then we are still seated in Heavenly Places in spirit and soul, knowledge of what is true, We are complete in Spirit we are becoming complete in our soul (MIND) and we will be complete in body which will be just like His. In Christ. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Christ in us will no longer accept any accusations from Satan like Job, Christ in us already defeated Satan on the high place by the Word of God and the Cross, crushing his head.

This person in the OT also experienced what you have described here...

Zech. 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

Zech. 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.

Zech. 3:4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

Zech. 3:5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.”

So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the LORD stood by.

Zech. 3:6 Then the Angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
\t‘If you will walk in My ways,
\tAnd if you will keep My command,
\tThen you shall also judge My house,
\tAnd likewise have charge of My courts;
\tI will give you places to walk
\tAmong these who stand here.
8 \t“Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
\tYou and your companions who sit before you,
\tFor they are a wondrous sign;
\tFor behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

What did Christ do for Joshua the high priest when Satan was rebuked and Josuah was pulled out of Satan's grasp?

In terms of the Godhead, what did God accomplish when He spoke to Josuah the high priest: For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

In Christ
Jeff

Zec 3:1
While the Jews were rebuilding their temple, their adversaries endeavored to stop the work, Ezra 5. This vision is therefore calculated to give them the strongest encouragement that God, after plucking them as brands out of the fire (or captivity of Babylon), would not now give them up, but would continue to prosper and favor them; and that notwithstanding the interruptions they should meet with, the work should be finished under the gracious superintendence of Providence; and their high priest, clothed in his pontifical robes, would soon officiate in the holy of holies, Zec 3:1-7. The subject is then, by an easy transition, applied to a much greater future deliverance and restoration, of which Joshua and his companions, delivered now, are declared to be figures or types; for that the Messiah or Branch, the great high priest typified by Joshua, would be manifested; and, like the principal stone represented in the vision, become the chief corner stone of his Church; that the all-seeing eye of God would constantly guard it; and that by his atonement he would procure for it peace and pardon, Zec 3:8-10.

The Angle of the Lord is most likely the Messiah. In pointing to Joshua, He is pointing to His Church which He will control and defeat Satan completely, by His work on the Cross and Satan will never stand beside the New Believer in Christ, with Christ Born in him and resist the believer. Satan still has some control over the unbelieving heathen and can use them to his benefit and for his work. Satan can never accuse the brethren before The Lord again. We are His Body the Church and Satan will not prevail against or accuse it ever. The difference is in the birthing. Joshua was not birthed by God, he was created and chosen to be a picture of The Christ that would come.

Big difference, in a created being and a birthed child. With the collective intelligence we have in the world today man could create an intelligent being, capable of learning and adapting to its surrounding but this is still a created being. Just like God, He created man, a little better than man could created now, but man was still created. Man can only have a being like himself by a father placing a seed in a mother and a child be born. This is what God has done with Christ birthed in us. God is trying to show us in every way the His Own Seed is needed to produce a Son, with His Nature to be God in the Son. We are born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father which is Christ Jesus born again in the believer. Joshua was no and could not be born again, he was a created being not a relative with Gods own Son's DNA, that is Spiritual DNA, until resurrection Morning then It will be complete DNA, and we will be just like Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of God, with His DNA as ours, and most importantly On Resurrection Morning we will get New Heavenly Bodies Like Christ with no blood in Them. Christ said, "see I have flesh and bone and I eat, but no blood. Joshua had blood and he will have to loose that blood in resurrection just as we do. We have The Spirit of Christ, the whole ball of Wax, We have Gods Holy Spirit, the whole ball of Wax, in slang whole ball of was is, there is nothing left to get, the wax, all of it is in the ball, we have even God the Father in us, The whole of all that is. Joshua could not have, he was not born again.

In Christ: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Joshua was not birthed by God, he was created and chosen to be a picture of The Christ that would come.

This idea that you point to: "he was created and chosen to be a picture of The Christ... reminds me of this Scripture:

Romans 8:
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,...

Zec 3:
8 \t“Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
\tYou and your companions who sit before you,
\tFor they are a wondrous sign;

Romans 8:
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

All whom He predestined...He also glorified. "For they are a wondrous sign...

With the collective intelligence we have in the world today man could create an intelligent being, capable of learning and adapting to its surrounding but this is still a created being. Just like God, He created man, a little better than man could created now, but man was still created. Man can only have a being like himself by a father placing a seed in a mother and a child be born.

That is why Scripture refer to us as being "adopted."

Eph 1:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Those who are birthed by God are adopted unlike Christ Himself when He became man.

In Christ
Jeff

Use the whole quote: Not just the part you want to comment on.

"""Big difference, in a created being and a birthed child. With the collective intelligence we have in the world today man could create an intelligent being, capable of learning and adapting to its surrounding but this is still a created being. Just like God, He created man, a little better than man could created now, but man was still created. Man can only have a being like himself by a father placing a seed in a mother and a child be born. This is what God has done with Christ birthed in us. God is trying to show us in every way the His Own Seed is needed to produce a Son, with His Nature to be God in the Son. We are born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father which is Christ Jesus born again in the believer."""

Yes, Jeff, the adoption part is the legal portion of our birthing. We are son's because of Christ in us, this is spiritual, (Godly Nature) God wanted to make it legal also hence the legality of adopted son's. Adopted son's have all the rights of the only begotten Son. Being rebirthed by Christ, The Fathers Seed in us we have birth rights also. By birth right and legally we are son's of God. Joshua did not have either of these, he only had the promise and God will deal with that when Christ comes and sits on the Throne of David in the millennium, Joshua will also be a son of God, but he will be an earthly son, not a heavenly birthed son. All Israel's promises are earthly except Abraham's Seed which is singular, Christ is the promised Seed of Abraham and the born again are the since Pentecost are the beneficiaries of that promise, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Verse 27. To whom. To the Gentile saints.
God would make known. "Willed (Gr.) to make known;" that is, he was pleased to make this known. It was concealed in His bosom until He chose to reveal it to his apostle Paul. It was a doctrine which the Jewish people did not understand, Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, (notice, not son's of God) as it is now revealed unto his holy apostle Paul, by the Spirit of Christ Himself. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by Paul's gospel, which he entreated 5 times as his Gospel given direct to him. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Phl 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. (What is his grace? "MY Gospel," which is the final Gospel for those in Christ. I also consider it my Gospel given to Paul and all that would believe by Paul, because it is Just For me, and like Paul I want everyone to hear it and see it in me and that it is for them also by The Spirit of Christ in them, revealed By the Holy Spirit.

What is the riches of the glory of this mystery. The rich glory of this great, long-concealed truth. On the use of the word riches, It is a favourite word with the apostle Paul to denote that which is valuable, or that which abounds. The meaning here is, that the truth that the gospel was to be preached to all mankind, was a truth abounding in glory.

Among the Gentiles. That is, the glory of this truth is manifested by the effects which it has produced among the Gentiles.

Which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. The meaning is, that the whole of that truth, so full of glory, and so rich and elevated in its effect, is summed up in this--that Christ is revealed in and among you as the source of the hope of glory in a heavenly place and while Paul lived, this was his only thought, "To Know Him. This was the great truth which so animated the heart and. fired the zeal of the apostle Paul, which Christ had given him Personally. The wonderful announcement had burst in his mind like a flood, that the offer of salvation was not to be confined, as Paul had once supposed, to the Jewish people, but that all men were now placed on a level; that they had a common Saviour; that the same heaven Israel looked for, but a new way was now opened for all, and that there were none so degraded and vile that they might not have the offer of life in Christ Jesus as well as others. This great truth Paul burned to communicate to the whole world; and for holding it, and in making it known, he had involved himself in all the difficulties which he had with his own countrymen even unto death.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Yes, Jeff, the adoption part is the legal portion of our birthing. We are son's because of Christ in us, this is spiritual, (Godly Nature) God wanted to make it legal also hence the legality of adopted son's. Adopted son's have all the rights of the only begotten Son. Being rebirthed by Christ, The Fathers Seed in us we have birth rights also. By birth right and legally we are son's of God.

Adoption is more than legal...

We wait just like those of the OT saints for this to happen...

Rom. 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Heb. 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Our minds must be renewed daily now even after we are born again. Our flesh now is corrupt. There is no difference between all the saints in this life.

47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Only at the last trumpet. Man is born of the dust, He lives once, dies once, and is judged once.

All men born of the dust must therefore be adopted because of the corrupt flesh and blood.

In Christ
Jeff

Zech 3:

8 \t“Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
\tYou and your companions who sit before you,
\tFor they are a wondrous sign;
\tFor behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

Zech. 6:12 Then speak to him, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:
\t‘Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
\tFrom His place He shall branch out,
\tAnd He shall build the temple of the LORD;

Jer. 23:5 \t“Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
\t“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
\tA King shall reign and prosper,
\tAnd execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

Jer. 33:14 “Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah:
15 \t“In those days and at that time
\tI will cause to grow up to David
\tA Branch of righteousness;
\tHe shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
16 \tIn those days Judah will be saved,
\tAnd Jerusalem will dwell safely.
\tAnd this is the name by which she will be called:
\t\tTHE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’

Jer. 33:17 “For thus says the LORD: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ”

The Branch is the Seed. When did Jesus do this work spoken of in verse 17?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I am not going to use the precious time we have left to argue with you over the old testament and new testament differences because of the old covenant and new covenant.

If you study this part of Paul's suffering for his brethren, Which is Israel you will see how much Christ has done for the Gentiles and the remnant of Israel. Israel in the old testament was saved by the works of the Law without faith.
Everyone in Christ has been saved by Faith, even then called the children of God, not the children of Israel.

Romans 9:1-33 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ((((Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:)))) but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (((That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:))) but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, (((that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;))) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Israel stumbled and Jesus Christ was an offence to them and they crucified the Lord of Glory. If it were not for the remnant saved by the mercy of God none would survive. Only the remnant of God's choosing will come forth out of Israel. We cannot change what God has done or even ask why did you make Israel that way. Why us and not them, to have the Promise in us and not them. Paul has plainly shown that the Law of Righteousness was not attained by Israel because of no faith to Make Christ real In them by the only way God has provided and given to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Grace through Faith, which is Gods Faith in Christ that is in the born again.

We are saved by Grace by Faith and that is not of ourselves. By Faith which is Christ's Faith have the children of God attained righteousness, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
1 Corinthians 1:29-30 That no flesh should Glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Israel is not in Christ Jesus and He is made our righteousness by God's own Choice. 1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Not glory in the Law of Righteousness whom no one can attain, but in Righteousness made in Christ Jesus in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Here at the end of this Scripture Paul states the Christ is over all. Who were the "all" that Paul identifed in this section of Scripture?

Phillip, this thread pretains to the Godhead. Many will teach only from what they have been taught of the Trinity and they will begin in the NT. All Scripture points to what we may come to understand what it means to know the Holy One. All Scripture can be safely used to discover who is the Branch. All Scripture can be meditated upon to discover the work that is preformed according to the Order of Melchizedec. All Scripture points to the Father, the Seed, and the Counselor.

Proverbs 3

17 \tHer ways are ways of pleasantness,
\tAnd all her paths are peace.
18 \tShe is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
\tAnd happy are all who retain her.

In Christ
Jeff

Yes Jeff,

"All Scripture points to the Father, the Seed, and the Counselor."

Jesus is the same "yesterday, today and forever."

I can't take a 58 Chevy mechanics manual and fix my 02 Chevy with it. He never changes, and we are not fixer uppers. I am a new creature in Christ Jesus all things have become new. The New is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." I will not put new wine in old wine skins. I will not use Israel for my salvation, only as a road map to my destination, which is the Father's House as a legitimate heir with Christ, spiritually, legally and on resurrection morning, physically. The God Head said, Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

"1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Israel was looking for the Messiah, Not The Son of God, Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, WHAT!!?

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Israel never did listen to the Prophets. Even Paul wouldn't listen until Jesus Christ Himself came and knocked him down on the road, blinded him, hollered out of heaven at him, and told him exactly what to do and what was going to happen. This a very special circumstance for a very special mystery hidden from all beings revealed in and to Paul for the very first time. Israel did not have it, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,

The meaning of the "prophet" is plain to us now, not only Rezin and Pekah should be unsuccessful against Jerusalem at that time, which was the fact; but Jerusalem, Judea, and the house of David, should be both preserved, notwithstanding their depressed state, and the multitude of their adversaries, till the time should come when a Virgin should bear a son. This is a most remarkable circumstance - the house of David could never fail, till a virgin should conceive and bear a son - nor did it: but when that incredible and miraculous fact did take place, the kingdom and house of David became extinct! This is an irrefragable confutation of every argument a Jew can offer in vindication of his opposition to the Gospel of Christ. Either the prophecy in Isaiah has been fulfilled, or the kingdom and house of David are yet standing. But the kingdom of David, we know, is destroyed: and where is the man, Jew or Gentile, that can show us a single descendant of David on the face of the earth? The prophecy could not fail - the kingdom and house of David have failed; the virgin, therefore, must have brought forth her son - and this son is Jesus, the Christ. Thus Moses, Isaiah, and Matthew concur; and facts, the most unequivocal, have confirmed the whole! Behold the wisdom and providence of God!

Notwithstanding what has been said above, it may be asked, In what sense could this name Immanuel be applied to Jesus Christ, if he be not truly and properly God? Could the Spirit of truth ever design that Christians should receive Him as an angel or a mere man, and yet, in the very beginning of the Gospel history, apply a character to Him which belongs only to the most high God? Surely no. In what sense, then, is Christ God With Us? Jesus is called Immanuel, or God with us, in His incarnation. - God united to our nature - God with man - God in man. - God with us, by his continual protection. - God with us, by the influences of his Holy Spirit - in the holy sacraments, His flesh and blood - in the preaching of His Word - in private prayer. And God with us, through every action of our life, in every thought captive to the obedience of Him, In all prayer without ceasing that we begin, continue, and end in his name. He is God with us, to comfort, enlighten, protect, and defend us in every time of temptation and trial, in the hour of death, in the day of rewards and His judgment seat; and God with us, and in us, and we with and in Him, to all eternity. Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

Would you like to prove this wrong, by putting Israel in the picture and commingle the old with the new and try to put law and grace together and destroy them both?

In Christ: Phillip

rookie wrote:

Brother Phillip quoted:

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I love this example of how paul shows us the spirit of true intersession.

No one can say this accept by the Spirit.

Br Logic wrote:

No one can say this accept by the Spirit.

There were righteous men before the Law given on Mount Sinai, as well as after, but before Christ incarnate. We tend to think that God did not require man who lived during these times to obey His Holy Spirit. If one continues in Scripture one will find that many did not obey and were declared wicked. Many who lived amongst the congregation remained sinners. Yet there is a remnant that God alway upheld by His Holy Spirit.

Psalm 7:

9 \tOh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end,
\tBut establish the just;
\tFor the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.
10 \tMy defense is of God,
\tWho saves the upright in heart.

We know according to Paul all men are depraved...Chapter 3 Romans...

As you have said Br. Logic it is only through the Holy Spirit that fallen man can be established by God. Paul writes...

1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:
\t“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
\tNor have entered into the heart of man
\tThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

The way has been established. Only the Spirit of God knows the things of God. Only the Spirit of God reveals those things so that we who have received His grace might know what has been freely given to us by God.

Paul writes in another place testifying of the work God did in those who are the remnant.

Romans 10:

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The grace of God through the Spirit and not works saves those whom God forenew during Elijah's generation.

As for the rest who were judged disobedient Paul writes:

Romans 10:

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Christ has always been the end to the law. For Solomon writes:

Prov. 9:10 \t“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
\tAnd the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

To know the Holy One means that we must submit to His righteousness. And it is only by the Holy Spirit do men come to know His righteousness and then to possess His righteousness.

Psa. 33:1 \tRejoice in the LORD, O you righteous!
\tFor praise from the upright is beautiful.
No one can produce an upright heart in themselves, no one. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit....

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Israel never did listen to the Prophets. Even Paul wouldn't listen until Jesus Christ Himself came and knocked him down on the road, blinded him, hollered out of heaven at him, and told him exactly what to do and what was going to happen. This a very special circumstance for a very special mystery hidden from all beings revealed in and to Paul for the very first time. Israel did not have it, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The nation of Israel as a whole obeyed God in some generations. But much of those according to the flesh remained disobedient. Yet in Scripture we see that God always, in all generations, has established those whom He foreknew. These are the faithful. These are called the remnant.

Seach through Scripture and listen to who God sends His prophets. There are some who do repent. There are some who after listening to prophets like Elijah, for them their road is made straight.

The life of the remnant, the Branch is found waiting for those who would hear what Scripture has declared. There is an ancient path, that path leads to the understanding of who and what the Holy One means to each individual in the generation that they have been given to live in. This is the mystery. But God's promise is that we all may come to know the substance of the mystery of the Godhead.

Matt. 13:52 Then He said to them, “Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”

There is both old and new. To understand how everything fits together, now that is the substance of the mystery which has always been.

In Christ
Jeff

Quote: To know the Holy One means that we must submit to His righteousness. And it is only by the Holy Spirit do men come to know His righteousness and then to possess His righteousness.

What makes man righteous?

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: There is both old and new. To understand how everything fits together, now that is the substance of the mystery which has always been.

Who is the Mystery? Is the mystery a substance?
Is the mystery a what?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip asked:

Who is the Mystery? Is the mystery a substance?
Is the mystery a what?

Col. 2:1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

The mystery is both of the Father and of Christ. What is hidden? All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. What is the result, our hearts are knit together in love so that we may share in the joy of fellowship with the Father and the Son.

By what means is this fellowship enabled? The Power of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip asked:

What makes man righteous?

Hab 2:

4 \t“Behold the proud,
\tHis soul is not upright in him;
\tBut the just shall live by his faith.

So those who are justified shall live by his faith.

All those who are saved by grace through faith are declared righteous by God.

The often repeated definition of grace is "underserved favor."

By what means does God favor those whom He foreknew?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

But the kingdom of David, we know, is destroyed: and where is the man, Jew or Gentile, that can show us a single descendant of David on the face of the earth? The prophecy could not fail - the kingdom and house of David have failed;

How does what you say here fit with this covenant that God spoke to David?

2Sam. 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

In Christ
Jeff

There can only be one answer to the mystery revealed now. That is the Person of Christ who is the mystery. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

You cannot deny that the mystery is Christ, and the work of the mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory. That being a new creature which has never before been revealed. That is a created being, man, now a creature with the life of God Himself in man, just like the God Man Jesus Christ, by His birth in us. We no longer live but it is Christ who lives in us and gives us access to our Heavenly Father and His Throne and His House where we already live with Christ in heavenly places.

In Christ: Phillip

Upon David's Throne will be Christ who is in the blood line of David, through Mary, The woman God the Father used to bring forth a special body for the Lord Jesus Christ, with the Sperma of God the Father by the Holy Spirit to bring His only Begotten Son into the world as aLL man and ALL God. By Christ this is what God has made us because we believe and by Faith Christ is now our life, and we must give up these fleshly bodies as Christ did, we have already been crucified in spirit and resurrected with Him and we are learning the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

If we don't see this we miss the whole Plan of God in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was ever begun. Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

In Christ: Phillip

rookie wrote:

Brother Phillip asked:

Who is the Mystery? Is the mystery a substance?
Is the mystery a what?

[b]2Corinth. 3:14[/b] [color=990000]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.[/color]

This is the perfect picture of the mystery.
However, it is not only of the reading of the old testament, but in understanding [b]of spiritual matters in all areas of the Faith[/b].

[b]1Corinth. 2:6,7[/b] [color=990000]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a [b]mystery[/b], even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:[/color]

[b]Colosians 1:26[/b] [color=990000]Even the [b]mystery[/b] which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:[/color]

"through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery."

"which vail is done away in Christ."

Christ is in the Old Testament, but a Vail covers the mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory that would come as promised, and now is revealed to His saints which are in Christ and Christ in us. That is why we see Christ so vivid in the Old Testament now. The Vail is lifted because we have the Mystery in us which Christ and is now unveiled. To those that are living in the Old Testament, it is still veiled. Christ cannot be born again in us until after the Cross and then revealed by the Holy Spirit that was given, not with us or upon us, but in us at Pentecost, of which God chose His vessel out of all humanity, Paul, to reveal this mystery, with the final Gospel and the fulfillment of the Word of God. CHRIST IN YOU.

In Christ: Phillip

[b]Psalm 25:14[/b] [color=990000]The secret(intimacy) of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.[/color]

The secret is of this mystery is in HIS covenant.
HE will show us HIS covenant, but do we realy know HIS covenant and all that it encompasses?

This verse is only a tast of HIS covenant:
[b]Romans 8:32[/b] [color=990000] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?[/color]
&
[b]2 Peter 1:3[/b] [color=990000]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:[/color]

[color=3366FF][size=xx-large]Praise GOD & Glory to the Highest[/size][/color]

2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

In this section of Scripture Paul refers to the Law given on Mount Sinai as the "ministry of death." In verse 9 Paul refers to this same ministry as; "the ministry of condemnation."

Then Paul refers to another ministry: the ministry of righteousness. He says about this ministry: the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. He says:
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

What does this mean?
He refers to the law of Moses in that it does not provide glory in the most important aspect. Death to self has some glory. But it does nothing for those who only know death. Only those who find the glory that excels will come to know the "ministry of righteousness. This aspect that is most important, is the understanding of how the Holy Spirit causes a glory that excels in the life of a believer.

This same section of Scripture is explained in another way that is found in Romans 5.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The glory that excels refers to the statement here, "much more, having been reconciled.... we shall be saved by His life."

This Life that is given to us through the Holy Spirit saves us from God's wrath. This Life frees us from the bondage of sin and death.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit will bring about righteousness in those who live by faith.

Who is the King of Righteousness, the King of Peace?

The answer can also be found in the OT.

In Christ
Jeff

As you are showing scripture of the Old and New Testements
"the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones"
And
"the ministry of the Spirit, which is the same as the ministry of righteousness" I will show you [b]a mystry[/b] of life though death.

Here is the ony difference between the two ministries:
[b]Jeramiah 31:33[/b] [color=990000]But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.[/color]

The Old Covenant is written on stone tabletts and the New Covenant is on our hearts.
How much more should we be dead if the Law is on our hearts?

rookie wrote:

Death to self has some glory. But it does nothing for those who only know death. Only those who find the glory that excels will come to know the "ministry of righteousness. This aspect that is most important, is the understanding of how the Holy Spirit causes a glory that excels in the life of a believer.

The Holy Spirit only leads to Christ which is the cause for glory that excels in the life of a believer.

Once we are lead to Christ, what must we do?
We must be crucified with Christ for HIS life to be in us.

Mr. John (praying) Hyde said, "Self must not only be dead, but buried out of sight, for the stench of the unburied self-life will frighten souls away from Jesus"

Paul said:
[b]Phiippians 3:10[/b] [color=990000]That I may know him, and [b]the power of his resurrection[/b], and the fellowship of his sufferings, [b]being made conformable unto his death[/b];[/color]

The power of his resurrection:
[b]Ephesians 1:18-20[/b] [color=990000]The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[b]:19[/b] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, [b]according to the working of his mighty power,
:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,[/b] and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,[/color]

[b]2Corinth. 3:8[/b] [color=990000]how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?[/color]

The ministery of the Spirit will only lead us to death[of self] and in that death will bring life and life more abundantly.

[b]John 10:10,b[/b] [color=990000]I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.[/color]

[b]2Corinth. 3:9[/b] [color=990000]For if the ministry of condemnation[law on stone] had glory, the ministry of righteousness[law on our hearts] exceeds much more in glory.[/color]
[b]Romans 5:17[/b] [color=990000]For if by one man's[Adam] offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall [b]reign in life[/b] by one, Jesus Christ.[/color]

Here is how we aply this life by Jesus Christ:
[b]Galatians 2:20[/b] [color=990000]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/color]

Logic, I am shouting for joy. What a blessing to hear the truth come forth in expounding words that are straight from the Holy Spirit and the Christ who's name we bare.

All I can think of is Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever in the believer and He will never change. I see Jesus in you because I see Jesus in me.

You have blessed my day, to have another son of God bringing to light what has been given by our Holy Spirit teacher of this Christ that is in us.

I thought is would never happen. Every body is against me (HIM) for believing this way. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:9-12 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I am truly filled by the perfection of Christ in your Post.

In Christ: Phillip

Jeff wrote;

Quote:
"The ministry of the Holy Spirit will bring about righteousness in those who live by faith.

Who is the King of Righteousness, the King of Peace?

The answer can also be found in the OT."

In Christ
Jeff

"The ministry of the Holy Spirit will bring about righteousness in those who live by faith."

Christ is our righteousness. The Holy Spirit shows us that it is Christ's righteousness that makes us righteous and teach us teach us the Mind of Christ that we might manifest in the flesh that righteousness.

"The answer can also be found in the OT."

Yes, by us but not by them because they did not have the Mystery Himself birthed in them. It was a mystery until, Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am (Paul) made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to (((fulfil))) the word of God; Even the (((mystery))) which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the (((glory of this mystery))) among the Gentiles; which is (((Christ in you,)) the hope of glory:

The Hope of Glory: The Faith of Glorious Worship of Christ and the Father for what He has done. A New Creature.

In Christ:

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Logic wrote:

The Holy Spirit only leads to Christ which is the cause for glory that excels in the life of a believer.

Once we are lead to Christ, what must we do?
We must be crucified with Christ for HIS life to be in us.

This is true, that we are lead to Christ by the Holy Spirit. For the work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal to us the things of Christ. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit will we be crucified with Christ. Only by being born of the Holy Spirit will we be enabled by the Father to be conformed into the image of His Son.

Paul identifies the "ministry of death and condemnation" as the law given on Mount Sinai. Paul teaches that the "ministry of death" is written on stone tablets. He then proceeds on to teach of the new covenant, "the ministry of righteousness." This "ministry" is not written on stone, it is not weak in that it depends on the flesh. This "ministry of righteousness is brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit.

(8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?)

The quote of Jeremiah is dependent upon the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now in terms of the "ministry of righteousness" we find that there are OT saints who are righteous. And this righteousness found in the OT saints does not differ from the righteousness that we ourselves have in Christ. For Christ is the King of Righteousness, He is the King of Peace.
All widsom is found in Christ. The content of this wisdom never changes. The result of being given this wisdom comes not from man. The mind of the carnal man cannot please God. The source of this wisdom finds is source in the Word. The result of this wisdom creates a new man, a righteous man.

The mystery of the ministry of righteousness comes to light in the OT.

32 \tFor the perverse person is an abomination to the LORD,
\tBut His secret counsel is with the upright.

The mystery which Paul speaks of to the gentiles was known by those who were declared righteous by God in the OT.

We know that the law given on Mount Sinai only brings condemnation and death. It cannot make one righteous. But thoughout Scripture we find that there exist righteous men and women in all generations. It is only by the minitry of the Holy Spirit renewing the mind daily that this work was accomplished by God in the individual who lived by faith.

Read Proverbs....listen to what Scripture says about the righteousness of the OT saints. Be careful how you hear...

Proverbs 2

6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,

Christ defines righteousness to those who would hear...our salvation is found in the Life that we inherit by the works of the Holy Spirit in us. Christ sits as the second Man at the right hand of God, directing the Counselor. The words He speaks come from our High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedeck.

In Christ
Jeff

Christ is the completed fact of our birth into the Christ Life. The Holy Spirit is the Power and Operator of that Fact. Christ is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the One that is the Seed, born again in the believer or died on the Cross. The Holy Spirit is baptized into the believer by the answered prayer of Jesus Christ to the Father.

Jeff, Is this what your statement says? " Only by being born of the Holy Spirit will we be enabled by the Father to be conformed into the image of His Son."

In Christ, taught by the Holy Spirit with Power:

Phillip

"" The result of this wisdom creates a new man, a righteous man.

The mystery of the ministry of righteousness comes to light in the OT.

32 For the perverse person is an abomination to the LORD,
But His secret counsel is with the upright.

The mystery which Paul speaks of to the gentiles was known by those who were declared righteous by God in the OT.""

Who in the OT were declared righteous?

Isaiah 57:1-21 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood, Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks? Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these? Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Thou art wearied in the greatness of thy way; yet saidst thou not, There is no hope: thou hast found the life of thine hand; therefore thou wast not grieved. And of whom hast thou been afraid or feared, that thou hast lied, and hast not remembered me, nor laid it to thy heart? have not I held my peace even of old, and thou fearest me not? I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee. When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain; And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people. For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, (this was Christ with the son of the world in the cup He drank in the garden) and smote him: (This is Christ whom the Father was pleased putting the iniquity of us all on Him and Killed Him)I hid me, (this is when the Father turned His back on His Son, and was wroth, (God hated the sin that was in His Son. and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. (Obeying the Father)I have seen his ways, (this is my beloved Son In whom I am well pleased) and will heal him: (He raised Him in Three days) I will lead Him also, and restore comforts unto Him and to His mourners. (the apostles and those who believed Jesus was the Son of God) I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to Him that is far off, (My God, My God why has thou forsaken me) and to Him that is near, (received up into Heaven and seated at the right hand of the Father) saith the LORD; and I will heal him. (His bones were not broken and His body did not see corruption) But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. (Who are the wicked? "There is none righteous, not not one.

In This passage there is only one that is righteous, the Christ that is born again in the believer. Christ has been made because of His sacrifice and obedience to the Father, our righteousness, He is our sanctification, our only wise Counselor: Wisdom, and Redemption of which there is none Redeemed except by His Death and resurrection and return in the Life of those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God only revealed by the Father those who are given to Christ by the Father. Those that the Father has given to Christ in the old testament have a complete different destiny than those that Christ has been birthed into. Our destiny is the Father's house as son's in the Fathers House. There destiny is on this earth for 1000 years with Christ on David's Throne.

One heavenly, one earthly, one birthed, one created, one ruling with, one being ruled over, and on and on. There are none that can be what God wants man to be without Christ either in them or ruling them. The gentile is not ruled, we are His friend not a servant like Israel. In being His friend we are a different servant because in Christ is the life of the New Believer the new creature.

John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

This beginning is the beginning corner, the corner stone that is laid in Zion which the builders rejected, the builders are Israel.

Psa 118:22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Jer 51:26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];Ephesians 2:21-22 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Who is the building and who is the temple, we are the temple of God. Who inhabits us?

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

The Gentile Church the Body of Christ will hear Him, and all that believe, Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or free. All that believe will be saved, by Christ in you who is our Corner Stone. The revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and on this Rock He will build His Church.

Acts 28:23-28 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

They will Hear which Israel rejected. Christ as life in the believer which no one had before the Cross.

Don't study this Jeff, only the Holy Spirit can reveal Christ as life and Not Israel.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Jeff, Is this what your statement says?

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

In this Scripture Paul teaches that we are joint heirs with Christ. The children of God share with Christ in the inheritance. We are not Christ. The Counselor speaks the commands of Jesus to us.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

This is my experience. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, serving as our High Priest. He sends the Counselor to man. Those who choose to hear take on the yoke of Christ. To me this means that Christ has the reigns and He directs us in our paths. This walk is the substance of our faith. As we continue to walk with our Lord's yoke upon us we grow to love the Father as He loves His Father. As we submit to the yoke of Christ we learn to love our brothers as He loves our brothers. This walk will cause us to forget about all the things that we once hoped for. This walk will cause us to hope for the upward call of Christ in our life.

To me the Holy Spirit speaks, as I learn the ways that Christ would have me go, I too see a treasure that surpasses the silver and gold of this earth. I see a truth that does not change in the midst of the teachings and philosophies of men.

There are only two types of wisdom. One that descends from our Savior and the other that is of the carnal mind.

As Christ imparts this wisdom to His joint heirs, we too will be convinced by Him through the Holy Spirit that nothing in this world has the power to seperate us. This love of fellowship to me is what defines the Seed in us. The fact that fellowship exists, means that we will do the things Christ commands us to do. Fellowship means that our hearts will love the same things that are righteous. Fellowship means that we will hate evil. Fellowship means that we will suffer tribulation from this world. This is the means by which the Holy Spirit conforms us into the image of His Son.

The fellowship we have with Christ in this corrupt body will pass on to a glorious body in the ressurection. Then we shall see Him as He is...

In Christ
Jeff

I am in complete agreement Jeff. We are not Christ, as John so wonderfully put it, 1 John 4:15-17 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He (Jesus Christ in us) is, so are we in this world.

In Christ: Phillip

"SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD"

Brother Phillip pointed out...

"SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD"

The qualifier that enables us to say this comes from

God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that enables us to dwell in God and God in us, both the Father and the Son. The Son teaches us how to love the Father through the Holy Spirit. This empowering of the Holy Spirit establishes the 'ministry of righteousness" in us. The substance of this "righteousness" is defined by Christ.

So would you say that everyone who has righteousness has Christ?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

"Who in the OT were declared righteous?"

"Isaiah 57:1-21 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness."

These people were righteous. The remaining section of the Scripture that you highlighted is speaking about those who are identified in Isaiah 56:

9 \tAll you beasts of the field, come to devour,
\tAll you beasts in the forest.
10 \tHis watchmen are blind,
\tThey are all ignorant;
\tThey are all dumb dogs,
\tThey cannot bark;
\tSleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 \tYes, they are greedy dogs
\tWhich never have enough.
\tAnd they are shepherds
\tWho cannot understand;
\tThey all look to their own way,
\tEvery one for his own gain,
\tFrom his own territory.
12 \t“Come,” one says, “I will bring wine,
\tAnd we will fill ourselves with intoxicating drink;
\tTomorrow will be as today,
\tAnd much more abundant.”

You will see that there are many comparisons in OT Scripture between those who are disobedient and those who are righteous.

In Christ
Jeff

1 Corinthians 13:1-10 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not Christ, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Christ, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Christ, it profiteth me nothing. Christ suffereth long, and is kind; Christ envieth not; charity vaunteth not Himself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Christ never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I changed the word charity which is agape, which is the Love of God which is Christ who gave Himself for us and Loved us.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Is He perfect? Is He Come in the believer? The "old" has been done away with and all things have become New, In Christ Jesus.

Are we in Christ? Is Christ in us? Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

""So would you say that everyone who has righteousness has Christ?""

Romans 3:9-22 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

*********!!!!!!!!!But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Does this answer your question?

My answer: No person has righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. He has been made by God the Father to be righteousness in us, not by works lest any man should boast. It is the Faith of Christ in us that makes us righteous because we believe what God says about His Son.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

My answer: No person has righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. He has been made by God the Father to be righteousness in us, not by works lest any man should boast. It is the Faith of Christ in us that makes us righteous because we believe what God says about His Son.

In Christ: Phillip

Job 33:

26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.

Do you see that this Scripture says? This says exactly what you have said. God restores to man HIS righteousness.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip quoted:

1 Corinthians 13:1-10 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not Christ, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Christ, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Christ, it profiteth me nothing. Christ suffereth long, and is kind; Christ envieth not; charity vaunteth not Himself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Christ never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

From what Bible did you quote this from?

In Christ
Jeff

I thought I explained this.

""""I changed the word charity which is agape, which is the Love of God which is Christ who gave Himself for us and Loved us.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Is He perfect? Is He Come in the believer? The "old" has been done away with and all things have become New, In Christ Jesus.

Are we in Christ? Is Christ in us? Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me""""

This is just John. Would you like Paul's in Christ statements. 146 of them.

In Christ: Phillip :-? :-?

Brother Phillip wrote:

""""I changed the word charity which is agape, which is the Love of God which is Christ who gave Himself for us and Loved us.

When one changes Scripture to explain what one is trying to teach others, that one will always fall short of why God gave us the Scripture.

When you replace agape with the name of Christ, you have changed what Paul meant to teach. Chapter 13 is focused on the fruit, the result, and not the source or power that enables one to know and experience agape. Chapter 13 is an exhortation to learn to love and thus it is not meant to be a statement that we already are perfected.

Only those who obey will learn to walk as Christ walks. That is the difference between what you have said and what Paul intended this section of Scripture to convey.

In Christ
Jeff

Love, Christ, and Charity are there and they are all in Christ. I must learn by the Holy Spirit and the Christ that is in me. I can not learn the things of God any other way. If Agape Love which is epitomized In Christ Jesus, and by me making a point that He is Agape Love, then forgive me for making the statement of Charity being Christ.

I know what Paul is teaching in this chapter, I was just going a step further and showing where the love exists and comes from. My love is as dirty rags to God. His Love in me is the only Love the Father wants. If I could have done it on my own, why would God go to the trouble of making me a new creature in Christ Jesus. God knew from the beginning I could not do it by myself. That is why He gave His only Begotten Son on the Cross. It pleased God to suffer Him so we could be redeemed and have the ability to be what God intended me to be. Now I can go on and be a son of God by the Son of God in me.

I did not change scripture, I gave the reason for why Charity is Christ. I cannot add to or take away from the Word. I can only give the interpretation the Holy Spirit Has given. I could put Phillip in place of Charity and it still would be truth because of the Christ in me.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I (Phillip) speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,(Christ) I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity (Phillip) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (Phillip)envieth not; charity (Phillip)vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, All this by the Agape Love (Charity) Christ in me.

For without Christ there is no Agape Love.
In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I (Phillip) speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,(Christ) I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

You see, the Corinthians did have Christ and yet they were not growing in love. That is why Paul was exhorting them. The emphasis of Paul's instruction here is quite different from what you interpret and thus imply in this section of Scripture.

We often will call on the name of Christ as the means of salvation, yet many do not see the process that is the result of the means.

Why do we need a High Priest if we are already perfected and dwell in the heavenlies?

In Christ
Jeff

Chapter 13 was put between two chapters on gifts. Paul was giving them understanding of what gifts are for and who gives them. Then in the midst of His teaching he wanted them to know that none of the gifts will produce anything unless Love is in it, and not just brotherly love, but Agape Love, The Gifted One Himself, the love of God, Jesus Christ. No gift of God can be accomplished unless the Holy Spirit give it as He pleases for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

This even called a better way than the gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:30-31 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
That is Chapter 13, The more excellent way. Agape Love by the Christ that is in us, this is the clearness we see in the Mirror. That which is perfect comes.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

That is Chapter 13, The more excellent way. Agape Love by the Christ that is in us, this is the clearness we see in the Mirror. That which is perfect comes.

The Corinthians were not being conformed into His image, they remained centered on the carnal mind and were spiritually immature. Listen to Paul's warning.

1Cor. 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

1Cor. 4:8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

1Cor. 4:14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul says not to go beyond what is written. He warns them of their pride. He points out that they have 10000 instructors in Christ, yet they do not have many fathers.

This is why you cannot change the words in Scripture as you have done. Do not go beyond what is written.

Do you hear?

In Christ
Jeff

Yes, father

I am condemned. Jesus still love's me agape love that is. The Love of the Father.

2 Corinthians 13:7-14 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Greet one another with an holy kiss. All the saints salute you. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

I am condemned. Jesus still love's me agape love that is. The Love of the Father.

2 Corinthians 13:7-14 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Brother, you never have to seek for assurance in God's love for you when you continue to learn to hear what the word of God speaks to your heart. As God continues to grow us in the love, by revealing to us the way the word of God, seperates us from the carnal mind and the vain philosophies of this world, we find that the love of the truth overcomes this world.

This truth is found in Christ.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Pet. 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

Love you Brother...

In Christ
Jeff

rookie wrote:

.....we find that the love of the truth overcomes this world.

[b]1John 5:4[/b] [color=990000] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: [b]and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [u]even our faith.[/u][/b][/color]

Love of the truth is what helps us come to salvation. We find out that we are not good and our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

Love of the truth will also keep us from being decieved especialy when God sends a strong delussion:
[b]2Thes 2:10[/b] [color=990000]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; [b]because they received not the love of the truth[/b], that they might be saved.
[b]:11[/b] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[/color]

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is (agape) love.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the (agape)love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in (agape) love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Agape: The Love of God in Christ, Who is ultimate Agape Love in us. "Christ In us the hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Logic...

I also posted 1 John 5:4 just prior to your post. Our faith finds its source in the word of God. It is the incorruptible word of God that not only awakens us to our need of a Savior. It is the word of God that also provides what is needed in sanctification and perservance.

Proverbs 2:

6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

What is said above in Scripture also speaks to the same thoughts spoken of by Paul to Timothy...

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Our faith brings us to walk with the Holy One who gives to us the understanding of righteousness and justice.

In Christ
Jeff

Our faith finds it source in Christ Jesus. If you are saying the Word is Christ, I agree.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

All these say it is no more our Faith but it is His Faith now birthed in us. There is much much more, I hope this is enough. Are you birthed by God into Christ, with Christ birthed into you?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Our faith finds it source in Christ Jesus. If you are saying the Word is Christ, I agree.

Yes the Word is Christ.

With this belief, then would not all of Scripture be able to create in man the "faith of Christ.?"

In Christ
Jeff

My Brother in Christ, Jeff wrote: Quote
""How can this be. "With this belief, then would not all of Scripture be able to create in man the "faith of Christ.?" ""

If Christ is unavailable to be born again in a person, how can birth conceive, it cannot. The first birth of the Father was miraculous, It had never been done before. A virgin giving birth to the Son of God? So the answer to your question is no. Christ's Faith was His Fathers Faith. God did not give Adam a spirit, or the faith of Jesus Christ. Adam chose his own spirit when he believed a lie in Eve when she was deceived and Adam chose his own spirit and that was the Father Of all lies, Satan himself was then the spirit life of Adam, with none of the Faith of Christ. The Faith of Christ could not exist with the faith of Adam's spirit which was Satan. Darkness and light cannot exist together, but Light will always take darkness away.

The Cross won our freedom and judged Satan. He no longer has control over the Children of God. We now have light Himself in us. That light now produces in us the Faith of Jesus Christ and darkness cannot exist in light. Every person before the Cross was in darkness in spirit, that is why everything in the Law was done in soul. Keep the Law and you will be saved, impossible.
After the Cross, believe and you will be saved. Believe what? Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then what? With Satan judged, we are choosing to believe God instead of Satan. Then our Spirit is the Spirit that God intended before the foundation of the World, The Spirit of God in Christ Jesus and not Satan's spirit,
which Adam chose. Or why Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. When were we adopted? The Cross, Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The spirit of bondage, is Satan as our father.
The Spirit of adoption is God the Father of Jesus Christ in whom we pray "Our Father".

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Israel is redeemed in Christ but we are adopted son's, by birthright of the Father, legally and Spiritually. Israel will be God's chosen people but not adopted unless the Jew, just like the Gentile believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, they still don't as a Nation, but individually, who ever believes in the Name of Jesus Christ will be saved as all are saved from the Cross, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Now with Christ in us the only faith we can have is the Faith of Jesus Christ, which unbelievers and even believers before the Cross could not have. If the Spirit of Christ is not in you then you are of your father the devil, and faith has to be reckoned instead of birthed in you. Satan is the spirit of everyone before the Cross, and all those that still don't believe. The prince of this world, who by the Cross is now judged and no longer can be the prince of the believers in Christ.

How are we In Christ, because we believe the truth and not the lie. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and we are rebirthed with our Father now being God, by His Son.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

The Cross won our freedom and judged Satan. He no longer has control over the Children of God. We now have light Himself in us. That light now produces in us the Faith of Jesus Christ and darkness cannot exist in light.

Psa. 27:1 \tThe LORD is my light and my salvation;
\tWhom shall I fear?
\tThe LORD is the strength of my life;
\tOf whom shall I be afraid?

Does the light ever change? Listen to the words of Scripture. "The Lord is my light..." Who is David's Lord?

In Christ
Jeff

Hi Jeff, you wrote:

Does the light ever change? Listen to the words of Scripture. "The Lord is my light..." Who is David's Lord?

David's Lord is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, just like ours, except Christ was not born again in David and David was after God's own heart, not a son with the Heart of God, The Seed of God, Jesus Christ in him. Jesus Christ was the light of David from the outside, Jesus Christ is the light of God after the Cross in the believer, from the inside, new nature, new life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ, the Heart of God: Phillip