Evolution Trial Arguments End

and round we go again hey Bub?God lives beyond time and space and could easily use evolution in such a way that no one would be able to detect His involvement. the question is not what God could have done, but what has He said He's done (in His Word)?Could you supply a few verses of Scripture to support your belief that God used evolution, over millions of years?mat

Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

He has no scripture other than saying the Genesis is symbolic. If Genesis is symbolic so is Christ. We know that Christ is not symbolic. He was a real man who walked the earth.

How do you metaphorize Genesis? What does each day represent? Is the order of what was created correct, reguardless of time?

2 Peter 3:7-9 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This passage has NOTHING to do with creation but is concerned with God's judgement on the wicked, it merely demonstrates that He is outside of time but not that He cannot convey what He means to us, Ex 20:11 is pretty obvious!also look at Luke 3 verse 23 till the end of the chapter please tell us when it becomes metaphor.Read Romans 5:12,14,17 Paul obviously believed in an literal Adam also 1 Cor 15:22,Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. who are you trusting believeing in evolution?matt

Honestly I do not know what the big deal was about this court case. I.D. is not young earth creation science or biblical creationism. In actuary terms there should be no reason that evolutionists should object to the inclusion of Intelligent Design since both theories adhere to the same basic idea of gradual increasing biological diversity over billions of years. The main difference is that I.D. allows for a theistic cause...a theistic evolution. I.D. is simply the result of some theorists who were smart enough to admit that science can't measure or see everything...just some energy and matter. Apparently this isn't good enough for the evolutionists who insist that the universe is nothing but energy and matter. Evolutionists hold out for a godless universe even while there are monumental gaps in their naturalistic explanations for even the first living cell.The philosophical commitment to the irrelevancy of God is the only feature that ultimately distinguishes Evolution from Intelligent Design.MC

This article has probably been buried for a while, but I happened across it, and thought a point should be made.I am a strict creaionist. What the Bible says is what happened. That's all there is to it. Now, I'm not a scholar, especially in this area, but as I see it, I don't need to be.Why? Because it's what God said. We have an established Canon of scripture, compiled by men, but in a way, and using a process, so that we would have the truth. That's what we call our Bible.The problem that I have, is when people try to make the strict Word of God fit their theinking.I suppose that if I tried really hard, and spent the time, I could show you how all of the sin that the Bible shows us is really derived of fig trees, and that if we just burned all of the fig trees in the world, we would be without sin. Now, you would think I was crazy, and rightfully so. Why? Becuase that's not what God said! It's an idea that I came up with, and looked for ways to make it right, twisting scripture to do so.Bubbaguy, you have some very interesting ideas, but I don't agree with you. For the simple reason stated above, that when we start to make scripture fit our ideas, we get into trouble.Now, this problem goes so far beyond evolution. How do you get a church that teaches that homosexuality is not sinful? By claiming that we're all sinners, and therefore, it's just another sin, no worse, and therefore acceptable? That's exactly it! THEREFORE- we interpret scripture to mean what we want it to!Now, not to disrespect you, bubbaguy. You sound like you've spent quite a bit of time studying this. But don't let your doctrine be shaped by what your thinking. Rather, let your doctrine shape your thinkig. Grace and Peace...

In evolution theory the Robustus branch dies out; more specifically they were hunted to extinction and eaten by the hunting tools welding Australeopithicine Afarensis. Then later the Neandertals break off from AAs and migrate north. After that, they either die out or they are genetically assimilated into the rest of humanity. I have been reading evolutionary theory for some time now but it has not lost its power to leave me 'open mouthed'. 'they were hunted to extinction and eaten'? Does someone have a photograph of this? or have we found a diary? It couldn't be speculation could it? not when expressed with such certainty?

Charles Darwin believed in God.To be clear evolution does not technically deny the existance of God, although neo-darwinian leaders like Dawkins and Gould certainly implied this. Evolution denies God's relevance and participation in his own creation. Evolution is a godless process. If it wasn't, then it would by default become Intelligent Design.As soon as you admit that blind nature can not animate minerals into life all on it's own you are admitting the plausibility of Intelligent Design.This is why I can't really understand why evolutionists, especially Christian evolutionists, are so vehemently opposed to Intelligent Design. In fact, I would have thought that creationists would have been more opposed to ID...as ID is as much evolution as it is Special Creationism. Apparently evolutionists are more fundamentalist in their beliefs then many Christians are. ;-) MC

Had a hunch this was going to be back up again this morning...Mere men! There was almost a bit of honesty eking through in the mention of evolutionary theory until it keeps coming out as fact.Does someone have a photograph of this? or have we found a diary? It couldn't be speculation could it? not when expressed with such certainty? It's just absurd and would even go as far to say that even the opposite rationale goes off into all kinds of the same style rationalizing, speculating, theorizing ... Australeopithicine Afarensis. Now we are to believe scientists to give us explanations by slapping a goofy name on a speculation and making that 'fact'? Or To call the God of the universe an Intelligent Designer? This may be a deep dark secret but have to wonder if it has been forgotten that there is a canopy of stars above their heads that declares the glory of Him who created all things. By happenstance this morning:Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. Is it not miracle enough to realize that you sit here breathing and typing and call to mind...Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; Ecc 12:2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: Ecc 12:3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, Ecc 12:4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; Ecc 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. What was answered Job after the long explanations, chapter after chapter? Or was this too mere metaphor? This want of stripping out all the miraculous, denying what was written because we must have a 'logical' explanation, again what was answered Job? And what was Job's response? Just the very beginning of response from God Himself ought to be enough;Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. This picking and choosing, both sides attempting in vain to 'explain' everything from Noah's flood to disbelieving the miracles wrought through the Lord Jesus Christ or at best giving some man made reasoning as to how they were preformed. Have we forgotten the element of belief?Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Interesting tie there with Noah's 'metaphor'. There was a point awhile back from someone making mention of a comment from David Ravenhill and what I do recall was he said something to the effect of "The Lord could have created the world a million years old for all I care". I would concur. Do we really think that there is going to be some kind of end to all this speculation, that we might convince ourselves that we are 'intelligent' enough to do what Job couldn't do even after he was practically waylaid by that which most likely not a one of us in our comfy confines will ever experience...Ah, but we have 'evolved' since then....Rubbish. Pure rubbish. I am so glad the Lord choose stupid fisherman and tax collectors to put a burning fire of His Spirit into, took a very intelligent, zealous Pharisee and blinded him, extracted out all the things he counted as...Phi 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Phi 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. You can go on attempting to dissect Gods word, His scriptures, all you want, but they are stuck together as sure as the testimony of our Lords own words, one context with one central purpose;Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. I know there is a rebuttal coming and another explanation about throwing our brains in the trash. It's old and it's tired and the failure rate to convince anyone doesn't dissuade one iota... But consider this. Will you continue to plant spurious things into young minds of the faith? Cast doubts upon the scripture and forget these admonitions and sentiment;Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Tit 1:9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers. Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, Tit 1:11 whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. Tit 1:12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. For which cause reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, Tit 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

aright here is the bomb that was dropped by my preacher on this belief. even if you wanna say six days is a thousand years or a million years or a billion years you cannot believe in evolution and stand on new testament theology. and this is what he brought up. Evolution says that the first organism began, it reproduced and died, another began and reproduced and died. so on and so forth a cycle of life and death that we are used to looking at. The only problem is DEATH DID NOT EXIST B4 SIN. and evolution says countless millions of organisms died before the first man even came on the scene.Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—1 Corinthian 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.anyways that's what i've heard.be blessedMatt

Does believing in evolution bring you closer to God? Don't you just want to know Christ and nothing else?

This is disputed. Most think he lost his faith in God when he lost his daughter. Even Christian apologists have admitted that the lack of positive atheistic statements from Darwin may have come from his reticence in upsetting his believing wife. Stephen Hawking had a similar path.

This is from a PM Bubbaguy sent me showing me 'common points' with Genesis and evolution. With permission I have posted it here:"the earth was formless and empty" -- Original state of universe is a void"Let there be Light" -- Big Bang releases Radiant EnergyNight and Day are divided -- Planetary systems developSeparation of the Waters -- Comets deposit water on earthWaters gathered into one place, land emerges -- PangeaThe "earth" brings forth life -- Complex earth chemistry begets lifePlants, sea animals, cattle -- Increasing complexity of life formsMan given dominion -- Protoman emerges as dominant animal"every seed bearing plant for food" -- Protoman is an herbivoreWe eat forbidden fruit -- Scavenging of meat beginsIncreased pain in childbirth -- Running requires narrower hipsEating on the plains -- Forests shrink, nomadic behavior beginsGod gives us animal skins to wear -- Transition to huntingCain and Abel -- Erectus/Australeopithicine dualismCain kills Abel -- Australeopithicines disappearCain, the restless wanderer -- Erectus migration into Asia, EuropeSeth, Man begins to "call" upon the Lord -- Neanderthals, speech appearsNoah and family survive flood -- Small group, out of Africa theoryNoah plants a vineyard -- Agrarian communities begin

Bubbaguy,First off, where does death (which is caused by sin) originate from? God or man's rebellion?Edit: I changed the sentance above to say originate instead of come.

Why do people die? Did God create men to die?

Hey BubbaGuy,If I could share a short testimony of my own salvation...My life started as the life of a skeptic. At a very young age my Dad taught us that man came from apes. By the time I was in 6th grade I had concluded that there was no God, that Science is the only trustworthy source of information, and was the only thing that would "save" the human race, and from there began to gather facts about evolution to use against those 'ignorant' Christians. I would argue for hours online against people who believe in God, and especially against creationist Christians, assuming they were totally ignorant (in many cases they were). When presented with a strong argument I would immediately throw it out, because "most scientists believe in evolution" anyway, so there was no reason to trust this Christian over scientists. Right? Well, after a number of years of being an atheist I was confronted with Intelligent Design theory, and saw the truth in it. I saw that many intelligent, educated people believe in this, and read much about it. I soon came to the conclusion that there was a God. It was around this time, i believe, that I found salvation. I got on my knee's and prayed something similar to "God, whoever you are, whatever you are, please show me who you are, what the truth is, and what you want from me". Well, He led me to Christ.However, I wasnt an ID believer for long. Since I had grown up on Science, I was still very much into it for about a year after my salvation. I still read much science and philosophy, and especially that involving the evolution/ID/creationist debate. As I researched, I found an incredible bias among those scientists who promoted old-earth evolution, and realized the power Satan had over all secular movements, whether it be the government, philosophy, science or false religion. I realized that Science itself can only be true, if you believe the underlying philosophy that it is founded upon. I now am convinced in the young-earth theory because of Scripture, and because of how unreliable science is as a means to truth. If you dont mind, one of the books that introduced me to this, and opened my mind to the possibility of a young-earth was the book "In Six Days, why 50 Scientists choose to believe in Creation", by John F Ashton. It was able to open my mind because I found that there were many scientists (all of the scientists in this book are practicing scientists who have PhD's) who rejected the old-age earth theory and even Intelligent Design. However, as I have grown as a Christian I have moved far away from Philosophy and science, realizing how vain they are in the long run. As I have moved closer to Jesus, I see those things as mere darkness. I do not want darkness in my life anymore, only the light of Jesus. "What fellowship hath light with darkness?". How can one who loves the light stand to spend so much time studying such pointless things? My real concern here, you see, is not whether you believe in old-earth or young-earth, but where you focus is. It seems that nearly every post I have seen of yours is focused on issues such as this. Why is your focus here, rather than on the light of Jesus, on His glory, on His majesty, on Him and His face alone? In Titus it seems that paul defines a heretic, not as one necesarily having a different opinion, but as one who creates strife over a small issue. I am not accusing you of being a heretic, but I have learned that it is far more important to encourage one another and have fellowship on those things that we have in common; mainly, the New Birth and the glorious Life of Jesus in us. These issues can come up, but they should never be the focus. When they do come up, I believe it is important for each side to come to the other with respect and humility... not pushing the others, or provoking (except to good works!), not creating strife over a small issue, but gaining understanding through it. Where is your focus? "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Where is your heart, where is your focus? Is your focus on the glorious Life of Christ? Or is it on a contentious, pseudo-philosophical/theological issue which has few practical applications? I want you to know, I say these things in total love. I want to provoke you to have a deeper focus, and the focus that God has. Is God's heart for everyone to be doctrinally/scientifically/politically correct about the first 11 chapters of Genesis? Or is His heart for His people to be more like Christ, to know Him more, to love and adore Him, to glorify Him, to bear the fruits of the Spirit and to show Christ to the world through our lives?

Bubbaguy:I want to thank Greg and everyone who runs this site. I have learned alot and have been prompted many times to examine my beliefs. I also appreciate the wealth of experience in the participants.Well here is something we can agree on my friend ;-), ill be honest i havent debated many theistic evolutionists in my time ive just read rebuttals of arguments used, as a young earth creationist i have read many articles on the importance of a literal Genesis and where as i do think it is important i wouldn't go so far as to say it is pivotal to the salvation message, ive even heard people speak of the "creation/gospel" message, this i believe is taking creationism too far, some people will argue a literal Genesis is foundational to show people the origin of sin and thus the need for salvation, therefore if you can convince someone they are a descendent of a literal Adam then you can show them the need for a Saviour, but i am also aware/afraid of reasoning someone into being a christian (not you, i mean people on the streets), let us not forget that salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit through conviction not argument.I believe it is important to have answers for people on this issue, but at the end of the day if you can be argued into something, you can be argued out of it, thus argument does have it's place but we should never forget we are saved by grace through faith, not reason or arguement.so thank you for your input into this topic too Bubb i look forward to reading more of your stuff.God blessmatt

bro mikepreach on bro...you know the story of creation is simple enough to understand. the earth/universe was created in 6 days and on the 7th God rested. seems simple enough to me. it seems we as people have some weird tendancy/desire/fascination with complicating the (insert expression here)out of things which are really simple to understand. it seems to me that evolution is an exceedingly creative way of explaining something which God simply laid out in genesis...it's a lot harder to swallow this evolution stuff than to accept creation as stated in genesis, i prefer the latter...a no brainer vs brain frier...it seems to me we would like to believer any other explanation than the obvious, anything to hold onto our foolishness rather than repent before a Holy God.

The science of geology clearly shows a succession of ages in the earth that can only be explained by an old earth (unless you claim that God made the earth and universe to look old when it isn't, which makes me wonder why God would deceive us.) The fossil record clearly shows a progression of life forms.Can you expound on that? What proof?

Hi IRONMAN,Wasn't sure if all that came out as a tirade or otherwise yet touched on this a bit in the other thread on the godhead... Think this is all quite normal and healthy to a point, just the 'camps' that get setup, the labeling and then the presumptions, "If you believe 'A' then you are a part of _____" and on it goes, everything from politics to denominations to all kinds of neat boxes to be squeezed into. We all do it to some extent and sometimes it's a necessary 'evil' to coin the phrase... I guess the larger looming questions are, are we making statements of fact based on a theory or a hypothesis? Or are we honest enough upfront to state that "I am looking at all these observable things and it is leading me in this direction"? It all can get so bogged down in rhetoric that assumptions became 'facts' in peoples minds."To the law and the testimony" may be a good post to start. To look back and for instance note all the times Jesus appealed to "it is written", to scripture being quoted and alluded to (Paul seemed to do this a bit). There is a cohesiveness to the canon of scripture despite the 'apparent contradictions', it's an old concept, easily dismissed I know, not trying to be flippant in the least.Can appreciate our friend Bubba's acknowledgment here to a point, but having him here for some time in this evolutionary discussion which at times is as stunted as the apes that man came come from are now experiencing :-D ....Where am I going with this... This is what keeps coming to bear.Things unseen.2Co 4:18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. We wrestle not...Out of the heart proceed...The creation groans...Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Maybe it is just the particular precipice one is standing on and gazing out from. Personally, the biggest and starting point is from a vantage of death. Looking at things not entirely but from 'All of life is worked out back-words', in that sense. If we were to start there even in these discussions what does a scientist have to say about that? Not to mock him, but to face it. What is your explanation for death and what are you going to do about that in light of all this reverse engineering of observable things?It's a bit to think about if it could be incorporated into all this searching and unearthing of bones and dust and minerals. Is it just sport, hobby, 'intellect'? Maybe it does need to be fully explored until a satisfactory 'answer' is given, as was mentioned by the brother here who studied through much of this.Seems like it's giving away the ending of the book but hard to escape the point that I think is trying to be enforced; He is God, we are creatures, beautiful and miserable, rebellious and redeemable (Praise God!) evil and yet capable of going home, back to the Father. The whole thing eventually settles out into the wonderful humbling of ourselves and the great exalting of God in His Holiness. He is Holy. "Whole". Perfect in all His ways. It's the most reasonable 'answer' to all our squirmings and questionings, reasonings, contentions...Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.The sentiment here;Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

bro mikeyou know i thank the Lord he dealt with me as He did otherwise i would have said "here goes mike on another tirade... :-P "bro i felt what you said in your post before this though. it seems to me that we would like any other explanation than the obvious for how things are case in point evolution. there is no scientific evidence (skeletal records for example) of animals in the middle of changing from one to another or anything else really that backs this whole evolution thing up. as far as i am concerned it's another tool of the enemy to get our eyes off God. as the scripture go, they also can descern the thoughts and intents of the hearts of men so if we look for contadictions, we find them. It's a bit to think about if it could be incorporated into all this searching and unearthing of bones and dust and minerals. Is it just sport, hobby, 'intellect'? Maybe it does need to be fully explored until a satisfactory 'answer' is given, as was mentioned by the brother here who studied through much of this.in reading the testimony of brother jfedgar concerning this i think at the end of the day, one must search out these things for himself and let God deal with him. Seems like it's giving away the ending of the book but hard to escape the point that I think is trying to be enforced; He is God, we are creatures, beautiful and miserable, rebellious and redeemable (Praise God!) evil and yet capable of going home, back to the Father. The whole thing eventually settles out into the wonderful humbling of ourselves and the great exalting of God in His Holiness. He is Holy. "Whole". Perfect in all His ways. It's the most reasonable 'answer' to all our squirmings and questionings, reasonings, contentions...and in humbling ourselves before a Holy God, our foolishnesses can be revealed to us. a great part of our struggling with God has to do with our pride and unwillingness to yeild to Him and yield things which we hold dear. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: at the end of the day and indeed on that last day of judgement none shall have any excuse to deny God in His Holiness and sovereignty.fall shall confess Christ is Lord, for those that believe it will be a most joyous occasion for those whose vanities and imaginings lead them away from God they too will confess, only in hell. let us humble ourselves before the Lord, repent and turn to Him wholly lest we end up like the latter...