Modern dress

There has been a question that has been begging an answer and I am going to ask for ya'lls insight, or comment. Why do the young dress so sloppy?I am disturbed by the slovenly dress of the young in todays world. When I was growing up, we used to dress up when we appeared in public. On the farm we wore clothes fit for the job, be it feed the hogs, the chickens, gather the eggs, milk the cows, or drive the tractor (yes, females worked outside on the farm long before women's lib). After completing the task, I always looked forward to a shower and clean clothes that did not reflect the jobs I was engaged in earlier. The work clothes may have been ragged, but after cleaning up, I worn nice clothes. What bothers me is the loss of femininity among females. They no longer value being a woman who loves beauty and will express this in the clothing they wear. Instead they dress like a cow in heat! And perhaps this is the problem? They have given in to natural impulses and have lost their self respect which is reflected on what they wear? If you study the styles people wore in ages past, people - males and females alike - took great effort to dress nicely, took pride in dressing well. But no more. Then the males: they will wear denim and tees to church, wear bill caps when eating in a restaurant, and even in the house! Where is the respectability? Do people no longer respect themselves and others? What do you think?ginnyrose

It is true that, the modern generation losing the meaning of modesty and discreet in dressing. Though this topic is a trivial matter, it can leads us into legalism too. But every spiritually minded person will be careful in his/her dressing so as not to become a stumbling block to others.For those who want to know what God think about your dressing. Please go through the following book.Does God Really Care What I Wear - Nancy Leigh DeMossDescription about this book:Dress can be controversial, and just the mention of modesty today can raise a lot of questions. Nancy Leigh DeMoss will guide you through discovering The Look that is timeless and pleasing to God. Biblical, practical and motivating, The Look challenges women (young or older), to discover the Truth about clothing and modesty.Does God Really Care What I WearFor reading the transcript of her radio program on 'The Rewards of Modesty', 'Resolves of the Modest' and 'Full Closets and Stingy Hearts', click this Modesty/Sexual PurityIn Him,Shibu

This is quite a controversial topic, indeed. But as a younger man in my church, I've seen a couple of different sides to why people expect certain dress, and do dress in certain ways.I doubt that you whould have much argument in saying that the older generation seemed to put more of an emphasis on dress, especially to church, and going into town, like you said, ginny. Many times, in the younger, you'll find someone wearing jeans among a room of those dressed more formally. I think there's a reason for this. Basically, the bottom line that it would more often come to, is that, in a fellowship setting, what are you judging a person by? Their clothes? Their hair? Their walk with the Lord? How they Pray? How they live their life?Now, to say that we don't judge would be an ignorant statement. We all do. We weigh truth from un-truth, and in the same way, we weigh believers from make-believers, and unbelievers. But on what basis? Some are logical, and right. Some are based on the traditions or beliefs of differing generations.Now, I'm probably skipping around a bit, so I'll put it how I see it. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about scantily clad females, or flat out dirty males, but more specifically what I wear, when, and why.Now, I've worn jeans to church on Sunday before. And I will again. Bluntly, it's because of this: I doubt God is impressed by the $200 suit I might buy for service!This comes from a stance on what I believe church should be, also. I see it as a place to train believers to go into the world. It's not the place where you bring unbelievers to witness to them.Now that you know that, I believe there is a time for more formal dress: in times that you are witnessing, handing out tracts, etc., if you look "cleaner", people might be more apt to listen. Going back again to the fellowship setting, if you're getting angry that a person isn't dressing like you, within reason, you might need to check your heart. Maybe dressing up is a way that you worship, but it's not to everybody. Frankly, I've been dismissed as "just another youth" because of wearing jeans, or a T-shirt to church before, but honestly, if that person can't seem to see past how I dress to look at how I live, pray, serve, then I don't have much interest in arguing with them about it.Now, getting to the other end, talking about ragged, or scantily clad people, yeah, it's sad. Often, it's disgusting. It's vanity many times, and it's killing another part of our church. I have to say that I see makeup as the same thing, also. Just as those young girls might wear clothes to "show what they've got", and to catch somebody's attention, makeup is designed for the same thing. Both put the focus on a material want, and away from our Lord.I'm blessed to say that my wife loves to dress modestly. I know her beauty, and that's good enough for her. I know her face, with or without makeup, and that's good enough for her. And the Lord knows both of our hearts, and so, no matter how we might impress the congregation, or likewise, His opinion is good enough for both of us.Well, I probably jumped around on that a bit, but I'd love to talk more about it. Just know that while there's some sad things happening with dress, I think there's some more pure things happening, as well. Tell me what you think.Grace and Peace...

Frankly, I've been dismissed as "just another youth" because of wearing jeans, or a T-shirt to church before I often wear jeans and t-shirt to the midweek meetings, and usually dress informally on the Sundays too. Dress code has become a struggle. I often ask the elders what is your dress code before turning up to preach in their meetings. Alas, it is a long time since I was 'dismissed as "just another youth". ;-)

yeh i'll say! Of course, if I wore I suit I might just get a little more respect from some folk, but then again we 'banjo players' have to stick together. ;-)

Did they dress differently when they went to meetings, than their normal wear in the early church? I do beleive in dressing modestly, but all the time! Does the dressing up nice for church bring the idea that the meeting building is more holy than other places? Or does this just fit into the catagory of "its a tradition, but not a bad one so let's just leave it alone."When I preach, I admit I do dress nicer. Its not because it effects my preaching but because it might offend some if I didn't dress as a "preacher". Excuse me if I don't have any camel skins to wear. ;-)

Now, I've worn jeans to church on Sunday before. And I will again. Bluntly, it's because of this: I doubt God is impressed by the $200 suit I might buy for service!In these awesome days of such universal chaos and declension in so many churches, maybe we had been best to wear burlap into some of the meetings. I think too often that folk dress up to go to church fishing for compliments and they whist not that they could possibly divide the worship. "Wow, he looks sharp this morning" or "she really looks nice in that dress"; are comments that seem innocent on the surface, but we are not in a service to be exalted. Others feel like it is an expression of their faith to dress nice to go to church. They would think it as sin or something if they did not dress in their "Sunday best." There is something about 'dressing up' that 'puffs us up'. Ever notice how a person carries themself differently when they have on a nice suit or if a gal has her make-up and clothes 'just right.' Another issue that goes unnoticed is that many times we think that a man is dressing provocatively because they wear a tank-top (sleeveless shirt), when in reality some women are attracted to men dressed up in a nice suit more than if they wore almost nothing. Same holds true for some men and how women dress up. Attraction is attraction is attraction is attraction- no matter what means one might use. We need to honor God in all we do with a consciousness about how we dress as not to offend God or lay a stumbling block before others. We send a message with how we dress. What is that message? More importantly, why would we wish to dress in such a way to make ourselves be set apart? We need to be discreet. Let our adorning be that of a meek and quiet spirit which in the sight of the Lord is of great price. I used to make a joke when I was younger that I put on 'costly array' when I was feeling short on godliness (I'll get my helmet;-)) ; "Nice ring, nice suit, nice watch, etc. etc." No amount of expensive dress can cover up for a week of worldly living. It is all just more of what some have called, "playing the game."

OK, I do appreciate your imput. I also see that I am talking to very young people who do not remember what life was like before the Beatle era. According to an article written by a secular writer, the stlyes worn by children reflected their parents style until after WW11 when youth had money and the merchantizers went after them, targeting their money. Fashions were designed for them and celebrities (movie, et al) became the role models. As such they lived in rebellion to social mores which were held sacred up to this time. Soon you had immorality flaunted without shame, and promoted through song and movies. As these performers worked to create a unique persona, they also dressed to reflect their philosophy. Marketers capitalized on this and now bingo! every young person wants to fit in and do not want to be considered odd so they will ride along and if you so much as dare to challenge them, you will be called names...Since sinful society dictates fashions, how should the Christian look like? What dictates his/her styles? where do they receive their cues for dressing? The way we dress tells others what we think of ourselves and them, does it not? Are we not a walking billboard? Obviously, there will be differences of opinion and that is ok. I did find it interesting that in our local newspaper last week in an article about a local teen who was killed in an accident. The principal of the HS he attended commented the 'he always wore his pants pulled up'.And this is a public HS! In Romans 12: 1,2 it says we are to "present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy acceptable to God....and be nor conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of the LORD is..." Now, how does this translate into practical living in regards to how we dress our 'billboard'? ginnyrose

Hi RobertW...I agree with your post. I believe that there is definitely a problem with modesty within the Church -- but it is not confined to Church buildings or meeting places. This modesty should follow us everywhere -- school, work, stores, restaurants, etc... I have always wondered why so many people hold to this "Sunday best" tradition. The early church indeed did not "dress up" in order to attend meetings. I sometimes attend a Calvary Chapel in the nearby city of Corpus Christi, Texas. There seems to be a deemphasis on "dressing up" to Church. They take those words "come as you are" quite literally. :) The first time that I attended, I "dressed up" for the meeting. Once there, I noticed that few people wore suits and fancy dresses. Rather, the congregation (for the most part) looked like they had just arrived from work or school. In fact, there were even some people that wore some nice chinos (shorts). The congregation did not seem to purposely "dress down" -- they just didn't seem to purposely "dress up" either. I don't find anything wrong with denim. Non-tight denim seems to be quite modest and comfortable. After meeting Christ, I was amazed at how offended some people are by such clothing. I usually try not to notice the clothing worn by others while fellowshipping with the Church. Someone gave me some advice shortly after meeting the Lord: "Be yourself in Christ." If you believe that Christ is pleased with you (including with the way that you dress), then you shouldn't worry about offending others. :-)

I agree with you Ginnyrose, I don't know if anyone here would disagree. What is modest dress? Not being sexually provocative? Is that a good deffinition?How do we dress differently from the world? Meaning types of clothes, not what the letters say on my clothes, that's obvious that you shouldn't ware something with profanity. I once had a man tell me this: Hot, cold, lukewarm. Hot is good, cold is bad, lukewarm is sickining. If a women dresses correct(hot) she will ware a dress. If she dressed wrong (cold) she will ware a short skirt or shorts. What is lukewarm then? He said "pants". Now I don't agree at all that waring pants makes you lukewarm.. but some define dress that way. How should a Christian dress? Like they did in Bible times?

I Timothy 2 tells us one should dress modestly. And what does that look like? I remember hearing David Wilkerson say (likely before some of you were born) that one should stand in front of a mirror and ask the LORD to reveal to him/her how they should dress! I do find it interesting that most, if not all cultures, have a code of what it means to dress up. And they will do it with no complaint (except from the males, perhaps). However, let the church suggest something, you are called names....Still, 1 Timothy tells us to be modest, which has the idea of quiet, not extreme, not expensive.......surely it says somewhere that men should not look like they are ready to go out and pull a calf when they come to church??! ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,As a young man in a horrendous society, I agree with your posts and I have always looked favorably towards dressing respectably. I also agree with Roberts post about how many people dress to impress and it becomes a 'churchy thing' for people to do.I am not for overdressing and drawing attention to yourself. I am also not for ornamenting with gold. But I do believe we are not to look like slobs (which the world is veering towards) and should be neat, clean, plain and modesty. Not out of legalistic rules, but because we treat our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit.A very old fashioned young man in a world of relativism,-Eli

Here's a picture of me heading out to worship on my 20th birthday! (Nov. 5, 2005)Picture

Eli_Barnabas, your the man!

OK, I do appreciate your imput. I also see that I am talking to very young people who do not remember what life was like before the Beatle era. ginnyrose, you flatterer! :-D

Hi gennyrose,According to an article written by a secular writer, the stlyes worn by children reflected their parents style until after WW11 when youth had money and the merchantizers went after them, targeting their money. Fashions were designed for them and celebrities (movie, et al) became the role models. As such they lived in rebellion to social mores which were held sacred up to this timeYes. many do not realize that 'youth' or 'teenager' is a fairly new demographic that has its origin in the late 30's early 40's. I think Life Magazine used the word 'teenager' in print for the first time. Since then they have been a targeted group. Not even the Babyboomers get the media attention in advertisement that the below 49 crowd gets and they (supposedly) have a great % of the wealth! :-P

Hi Eli...Happy Birtday! :-)

Wow! You are a very nice looking young man! I'll bet your mother is pleased to claim you as her son!ginyrose

Indeed happy bday Eli! You look neatly dressed!I have a suit too, but its so expensive (for me) that I won't use it much. :-) My limited experience with this kind of clothing: "wow the pants are lightweigth!The shoes are not quite as comfortable as sneakers."Perhaps I should try a combo, sneakers and that stuit pants. :-P Bit more serious now; About not being offensive to others, I do wear so called 'witness bands'. One with a cross on it and another with a cross and 'Christ for Life, John 10:10' on it.I can imagine that some non-christians find that offensive (perhaps christians too?). I would like to have some nice 'christian' shirts too, but they are so expensive.What do you people think of that, regarding the 'offensive' part?It's not that physically wearing Christ's name on your body makes you a better Christian tho.

Somehow we have strayed off onto some rabbit trails since my original post. Originally, my concern was the lack of femininity among females. Perhaps I need to restate my concern by inserting a little history: Before the Beatle era girls took pride in how they dressed. This, however, was changing with the event of the hippie era. Youth were rebelling against the establishment, provoked by the Vietnam war. They declared they knew better then the older foks, saying they were hypocrical. The youth were asking good questions, however, they also intimidated the older generation who surrendered their leadership to the rebels who said if it feels good, do it! This mentality spilled into the church. Soon you have a lot of young people who were doing their own thing, sinning with no shame. They borrowed the world's music, christianed it with religious lyrics. Now you had the world very comfortable in the meetinghouse. Anyone who would raise a voice of concern was silenced because he/she was not being loving. (I remember reading a book over 30 years ago admonishing how people should be more loving. I took it to heart and did as encuraged to do . However, later "Christianity Today" magazine identified the writer as a lesbian.) Now to my point: how does a female deal with the guilt when she feels like damaged, used goods? Popular opinion said if it feels good, do it. They did it and what is the result? Lost virginity,abortions, babies out of weedlock, shame but no shame..after all the celebrities do it and look at the admiration they get from the people. Now it seems to me the slovenness of females reflects their feeling of self worth, but these feeling have been silenced because it is now accepted to be sloppy. Women were made by God to be the one who will spread beauty in her environment. The male is the protector and provider of and for the female. Somehow, the roles have become confused, females wanting to be and act like males and doing a bum job of it. And males are confused about how thy are to act in this tossed-up, mixed up world. I am encouraged when I read of females who are speaking up and declaring their independance of the worlds morals. And a white-haired (and believe it or not, but I did have brown hair not so many years ago) grandmother has to be careful what she says, even if is complimentary, lest she be considered old-fashioned because a grandmother likes it! This is my observation and wish input about this and not about the males wearing denim! ;-) ginnyrose

Groh frog,I am not angry. I am just sad because as I see it young girls are being destroyed and the evidence is how they dress because it goes against the nature of a godly female, one made and created in the image of God! Why do females find it difficult to stand up and say : I am thankful to be a female! God made me so and I will celebrate it by being one, acting like one and dressing like one. Gender confusion was an abomination in the OT, and has this ever changed in the NT era? Sloppy dress seems to indicate a low feeling of self worth and for this I am sad. Seems to me if the males were to encourage the young girls, perhaps this could be reversed? ginnyrose

hey, ginny.Talking about immodest female dress, I completely agree with you. It is sad to see the "look what I've got" clothing on a person, especially when it's someone that claims to live for something more, not of this world.I wrote about my wife. She is, in so many ways, a hero. And this is one of those. She is always modest in dress when we go out. Whe won't even wear her sweats to drive to our local store a couple of blocks away, even if just to pick up some milk, etc. Why? Too form-fitting.I also wrote about makeup. Now, she has some eyeliner, but rarely wears it. Why? Because I love her the way she is, and that's good enough for her.But more and more, this is a rare thing among our churchgoing women: modesty. And it's nothing new, it's just changing.I reference the makeup specifically because I believe it's vanity just the same as a man dressing up can be: What's the motive? Now, like said, I don't believe you should be judged on how you dress to church, but at times I do dress a little more formally, when I'm handing out tracts, etc. Could makeup be a similar tool- even in getting people to take a tract from you? yes. I think so.But what I want to say is that this in an intergeneration thing. But you've got to weigh your own heart in this. I'm sure there's some women who will fight to the death over thier makeup- it can give them a confidence they might not otherwise have. And this is something that is often encouraged by the men. Something for us to work on.So again, immodest dress? I don't like it at all. But too often, we enourage it, also.Grace and Peace...

As a result of allowing God's word to fill me and understanding the revelation of God's love for me, I have begun to dress in a more feminine manner since I got saved and walked with God. I know that God doesn't love me anymore because I wear a skirt or not but I think as Ginny rose said its about respect. Before my converstion I had little or no respect for myself and dressed accordingly, trying to attract etc. Falling in love with Jesus has affected me from the inside out. No one had to tell me to change what I wore, I just started to change the more & more I got to know God through His word. Ps 45 speaks of the King's daughter being all glorious within and her clothing being of wrought gold. King David's daughters wore garments that distingished them and marked them as such. We serve the King of Kings I think that especially as young people we should set examples of modesty and respect for ourselves in our dress. I don't want to get hung up on it or judge anyone for their appearence, but the world and especially the young are looking for something other than they know. I think being clean, tidy and respectfully dressed can have more of an impact than what we think..... God Bless You Ginny, we could do with listening to more "gray heads" coz unless Christ returns we're going to be gray heads some day too and wish that young people would at least consider what life's long experience has taught :-)

God Bless you! Laineye, your testimony is so refreshing! Recently a friend emailed me a long article by Dr. S. M. Davis, "The Language of the Christian's Clothing". It is very long, but what I did read, it was very enlightening and you might find encouraging. I did find it on the web and here is the link:http://www.nathhan.com/clothing.htmGOd bless you, my dear, in your walk with the LORD. He is a delightful Master, don't you think?!:-Dginnyrose

Ginny He's a Wonderful Saviour! Thanks for the link...... like you said what I read was good. I know of a group of young men in dublin, Ireland who are being saved out of a life of heroin & drug addiction. They are causing quite a stare in the church they attend as they are getting saved and then attending the house of the Lord in their best suits! The other believers are much more casually dressed so they're not copying what they see, simply allowing what's happened on the inside to be reflected on the outside in the best they have! Isn't that just the best testimony!So much of the "dress" debate is focused on women but I was so blessed to hear that about the lads! I suppose as with everything its an issue of the heart and when God does the work there, no man needs to tell you and it remains with you.God Bless you my dear Ginny. chat to you again

Laineye,This is a wonderful testimony! Much of the current fashions are inspired by those involved in the drug, immoral culture and why Christians want to follow it, is beyond me. Let a church speak to the issue, you will be labeled as legalistic, but people will change their style with no thought if the fashion industry so dictates. But going to wearing suits,wow! ....I am so awed. PTL! My nephew has struggled with rock music, hallucinogenic mushrooms, etc. He would repent only to fall back again...perhaps not as deep, but, yes, regress a bit at a time. This morning his mother called to let me know how he is really broken, repentant about his sins. So he started to 'clean house' by discarding all his Abercrombie & Fitch clothes - they burned them last night! They did NOT tell him he needed to do that, so where did he get that idea??! The Holy Spirit must have impressed that on his mind....Yes, God will teach his people how to dress if they will listen. Methinks people are afraid of that thinking God just might want them to dress ugly, dumpy. Seems to me this shows a ignorance of the nature of God....Thanks for the post, Laineye,ginnyrose

Ginnyrose,I have been watching this discussion with much interest for some time becasue it is something that does concern me as a pastor.Because Your original question involves women and dress I will deal with that. Biblically the word is 'modest' dress, no costly array that draws attention to self but a humble heart and contrite spirit being of more value to the Lord. I remember in Bible college there was a young lady (and I would not use any other term for her but lady) Bethany was her name . I remember one thing about her that everyone noticed was her dress -- modest was the only way to describe it. This was the late 80's and early 90's (dated myself didn't I ;-) ) but she wore dresses that were always down to her mid calf or longer. I don't remember ever seeing any cleavage at all in the 4 years I knew her. I was married and I could tell you I appreciated as a young married man a woman that wasn't out to tempt me. In fact I don't remember thinking one sexual thought about her at all. Now this was not because she was ugly -- quite the opposite -- she was one of the most beautiful girls on campus, but that is as far as it went in most of our minds -- 'Bethany is a beautiful lady' was all I and every other guy thought. Smart too -- she was the only girl who survived two years of Greek with the 11 of us men who took the second year. The funny thing is every guy who was single tried at one time or another to go out with her. She turned them all down. She knew what they were after and she didn't trust them. Hung around married men for the most part and all our wives trusted her, 'because she doesn't dress like a tramp' was my wife's explanation.I did an interview with her for a class project and the subject of dress came up. Her thoughts were that God is clear in his Word that modest for women so it was her goal to look beautiful but not in any way be 'sexy', she would save that for her husband after she got married. I asked her what advice she would give the young ladies on campus about dress. She said that every girl should go through their entire wardrobe and do two things 1) Put on every dress, blouse or shirt and stand in front of a mirror, bend over and look up -- if you see any cleavage (her words) dump the shirt, blouse or dress 2) Put on every skirt, dress and pair of pants (although she did say that every proper lady should only wear pants for work or such activity -- come to think of it I never saw her in class without a skirt or dress) , for the skirts and dresses sit in a chair in front of the same mirror and if you can't cover up what under the dress or skirt without crossing your legs than its too short and you need to dump it. For pants she said if they are so tight that nothing is left to the imagination as to what you backside looks like -- get rid of them. She said she only had one pair of jeans and she only wore those for work and preferable when there were no men around. She was a charming lady and one I wish I saw more of on campus. Most girls on campus throught this advice to 'prudish' or 'restricting' and yet when the best dressed catagory for the year came up for the girls -- she always won. She did get married to a man who was more interested in her call to missions than her body. He is a blessed man.That said -- the last thing I want to see is a bunch of rules in church of how people should dress other than the word -- modest. The reason I reject the suit and tie thing is this -- smacks too much of corporate america -- the last person a unbeleiver saw in a suit and tie was probably a banker or morgage broker and it was a nervous expereince. I hit the putpit in nice slacks, good dress shoes and a nice (usually collarless or polo) shirt. When it is cold I add a jacket which usually leaves once I get preaching. ;-) Something about God burning you up that makes you warm. 8-) Overdressing in church makes us look unapproachable to some inside a church building. I know I asked some guest about it several different times. The last thing people want to attend is a church that judges them by how they dress or dresses like a bunch of stuff shirts. They are looking for church that will treat them like family. Besides I think is was Charles Parham that said once that ties were of the devil. ;-)On the flip side of this is the fact I have seen some ladies and men too come to church is stuff that would make you blush (if Americans could do that anymore) I can't count the times that girls in church dress more like street girls than women of God. I am sorry, If I know everything about your body ladies except some intimate details only you husband should know than it is harlot wear. The thing I should note is the beauty you have not how sexy you are. Save that for your husband.That's my two cents.Blessings.

Sir Edward,What a wonderful testimony! That woman's behaviour is so admirable. I would love to have met her!I love the guidelines this lady had to determine modesty...think I will copy/paste them for future reference and hoping you will not mind. Her guidelines are similar to what I heard David Wilkerson say many moons -perhaps 25-30 years? - ago. You mentioned over dressing...I have had clients at the Crises Pregnancy Center who voiced complaints similar to yours. They said how so many women will dress on Sunday to be seen, to display the latest fashions, expensive and it was a sure turn off for them. So here we are again...the importance of being modest: not dumpy, nor expensive, nor sloppy. Just think about it: when you are with someone who dresses modestly, you can focus on that person, what he/she is saying without the added distraction of their 'display' of flesh or wealth. That display of flesh or wealth can evoke mental/spiritual struggles which will interfer in your communication with each other. The scriptures tell us we are to encourage each other in our walk with the LORD and that can scarely be done when you evoke temptation - giving offence- in the mind of the person in front of you. Thanks Brother Sir Edward for your post.ginnyrose

I knew you would enjoy the testamony.I don't know what happened to them after a few years from graduation. (Tends ot happen a lot) I know they were going to stay one more year so he could finish his degree. They were planning to enter the mission field after a couple years of being pastor and wife. If they did I never heard where they went. I agree that when modesty is the word in dress you can focus on the person instead of what they look like. It is a joy.Blessings.

Sir Edward, I am sure with your convictions you are teaching the females in your household to be respectful and that is encouraging to this grandmother.I did more reseach on the web concerning fashion. It is difficult because my ISP blocks my search. But I did find a few interesting tidbits. 1. Fashion is a language which tells a story about the person who wears it. "Clothes create a wordless means of communication that we all understand," according to Katherine Hamnett, a top British fashion designer. 2. This is what people think when they see you dressed this way. In the Family Weekly magazine they had a true or false question and answer section. “Question: What you communicate wordlessly has more effect on people than what you say? Answer: This is true. ... Question: People use clothes as a means of communicating with others? Answer: True. Psychological studies at Britain’s University of Newcastle have demonstrated that people use clothes to tell others what they want them to believe about them.”In other words the wearer is not trying to tell others what he is really like, but is trying to communicate his ideal self image, the kind of person he wishes he was. That’s what these experts say. What you wear says something about you. 3.Whether you realize it or not, men look at certain portions of the body; and it doesn’t matter whether you think that is good, bad, or otherwise, they are going to do it. And if you wear clothing that attracts attention to that, you are just helping them in their sin. 4.One of the many immodest dress styles to come out of the corrupt design industry is slit skirts. The obvious purpose for this fashion is to tease men with the flashing effect that is created. It is strangely enticing. Even if the slit is below the knee, the effect is very sensual. A couple of years ago we asked a group of young Bible college men if they were tempted sexually by slit skirts, and each of them admitted that he is. This should speak volumes to Christian women and young ladies who desire to remain pure and to avoid causing offense to othersNeed I say anymore? Brethren and sisters, the sloppiness/immodesty one sees today is a reflection of styles popularized by those in the drug, rock music culture who are given to rebellion against any kind of authority. This hurts all of us. It is destroying women who no longer celebrate their distinction as females and neither do males afford them the honor they so desperately need. And some of this is the womans fault because she tries so hard to be masculine because to her she wants to be accepted. She may not be aware of it, but that is what it all comes down to. Celebrate the differentness between males and females by encouraging them to develope their natural instincts of what is typically female. God made both male and female and called it good. It is high time the church also calls it good and celebrates his wisdom in creating it thus. You can do this by praising them, show them they are loved for being a female. Cherish your wife and daughters if you have them. The days are very evil and are not likely to get better. Blessings to one and all,ginnyroseEDIT: info was gleaned from http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/bibleguidelines.htm

Ginnyrose,Well there are only two females in my house so it is easy. The difficult thing sometimes is special situations. My daughter for instance is an athlete -- she plays basketball and volleyball. The discussion came up -- it is not practical for her to wear a skirt or even slacks. Shorts are the only option so we looked high and low for shorts that were loose enough that they covered things without revealing them, yet free eough where she could move. It was sadly not true of most of the rest of the girls. In volleyball many of them opted for spandex. In Basketball, my daughter is one of the few that wears a T-shirt under her tank top. She is usually a very good dresser but active so pants and jeans get worn more often than not, but I refuse to let her go out in something that shows flesh or gives the hint of it. She told me once that she felt skirts or any type were dangerous in school becasue boys these days have no manners and will try to lift them up. My wife is a worker so she dresses very practically, but I would hardly think it was sexy to others -- to me it is of course -- One of the things she had to deal with was in music she plays the drums so she had to wear slacks -- nothing revealing and yet practical for the situation.My family is practical for the most part about dress -- I don't buy suits for my boys or other dress wear because they outgrow it faster than I can buy it. $100 or more up in smoke everytime. Other shirts and denim are cheaper and both my boys like loose fit so it is never a problem.One issue ladies about this and why this is important -- I stand roughtly 6'4" so every female is about a foot shorter. I look down on everybody. Bethany's advice about bending over in front of the mirror is very practical because of this. Make a note. I speak from experience of some women who may think they are dressing modestly but they are not from my persective.You are very right about this Ginnyrose. I really think most women dress badly becasue they want to be accepted by men. The problem I have with this is that it ultimately leads to the devauling of females and males as well. The responsibility is on both sides. As I man I realize I will always be confronted with women showing flesh, I must rely heavily on the Holy Spirit in such times, but women who are of God should realize that they should not be causeing their brother to stumble -- men are going to look, it is instinctive -- what do you want them to see -- beauty and purity or sexy and sensual. Dress is the determining factor. Blessings.

Sir Edward, You wrote: "I stand roughtly 6'4" so every female is about a foot shorter. I look down on everybody. Bethany's advice about bending over in front of the mirror is very practical because of this. Make a note. I speak from experience of some women who may think they are dressing modestly but they are not from my persective." I never thought about that...something to consider. Never heard this before. Thanks for the enlightment. (BTW, I stand 4'11" - shorty? you bet...blame it on my grandmother! I really am a little 'old' lady! LOL)The OT has a lot to say about 'nakedness', e.g., Exodus 20:26: And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it. (NASB). The OT can give us insight into what God deems to be modest and it would serve us well to prayerfully consider these points.Other then modesty, a driving point with me is that when we go to the house of worship, we go there to worship a holy God. We do not want to distract from that worship by dressing in any extreme fashion: we want to be our best and do our best. We would do it for weddings and other special ocassions but why not for God? Would we do less for God then we do for others? Yes, I know the NT does NOT tell us how we should dress when we come to the house of the LORD. And I know here are places on this globe where people gather to worship and they have very poor clothing. I know God will not judge them based on whether their clothing is ragged or not. I know all this. I also know that when people become converted it will make a difference in how they will dress their bodies because we are walking billboards. I am so glad winter is upon us to give our eyes some relief from the visual abuse that is heaped upon us during the warmer months....ginnyrose

hi ginny:>Why do the young dress so sloppy?Probably because their parents have allowed them to. Part of this comes from what the parents have taught them growing up. As far as modesty, if mom/dad doesn't emphasize modesty in their upbringing and a kid is just looking at the world's fashions, then they will dress immodest because thats it the direction it is going. As far as suits/ties, its very expensive in Calfornia to buy such clothes. I'm happy that others may be able to do it but i don't feel guilty if i wear jeans/t-shirt once every so often to church. I definately want it to be neat and clean out of respect for others. Being a young adult, i've experienced much of this judging on the outward appearance. It is a trivial matter but alot of people seem to think it is more than that. Pharisees are all caught up with equating dress to holiness.(Matt 23:5) I don't want that in my spirit. blessings, =j

Lovejt, I am so sorry you believe people are being judgmental and Pharisaical when they speak out about dress and suggest that what they are wearing is immodest. May I suggest you do an indepth Bible study beginning with Genesis, go all the way through the Bible and look up any references that deal with nakedness, dress or related subjects. Then come back and tell us what you found? Would you be so kind to do this for your own benefit? Being Pharisaical has the idea of putting things ahead of God and believing in them for salvation. It is a violation of the first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Or maybe you do not believe the ten commandments are relevant for the NT era? Do you have no standards that are Biblically based upon which you make evaluations? If you are a Christian you do. Why do you exempt clothing and modesty from that evaluation? Jesus said if ye love me keep my commandments. Is this being legalistic? Lady, there have been males on this forum who lamented their struggle with impure thoughts, not helped at all by the immodesty seen in public. They pled for prayer to be overcomers. Do you not feel any responcibilty to these brethren or any others out there who are struggling? Are we not our brother's keeper? BTW, I did not suggest males wear suits and ties to be dressy. You can be modest without it. Remember the definition of modest is being moderate, observing the proprieties of dress and behaviour. I Timothy 1, Titus 2, plus the sermon on the mount gives some principles for life. Is teaching these scriptures and expecting obedience to them Pharisaicial? I am sorry you were hurt...I have had single clients (I volunteered at a Crises Pregnancy Center for 15 years)who rebelled against authority and what the church said about dress, behaviour. And they either got pregnant or were afraid they were. Who impressed who, do you think? They get their cues from popular culture which is dominated by the drug culture, the rock muscic culture which spout rebellion against God and all authority figures. Why would a godly person what to look like them? Does this make people think about God? You are a walking billboard, whether you like it or not. You are conveyng a message. Would Jesus approve of the message you are portraying?Blessings,ginnyrose

People are being pharisees if they believe that their wearing nice clothing whether suits or casual formal makes them more holier then people who happen to be wearing jeans/tshirts/nike shoes at church.As far as immodesty, that is another thing. I am totally against immodesty. I don't see where i implied that at all in my post. I don't like tight clothing and exposure. I have god-kids and am always speaking of these kind of things to them all the time so that when they get into teen years (still awhile), they will not be so suseptible to whats in the world as far as immodest fashionsware. I'm thankful that there are women who are sensitive to not wearing things so overly tight so it helps in our walk towards purity. (Matt 5:28). Hope that clears up what i meant. No apologies necessary Ginny. :)blessings,=j

It seems like there's a bit of a split here in actual topics that are being discussed. One one hand, we're talking about the modesty of dress in men and women. It's about dressing in a respectful way, meaning you're covering yourself appropriately.On the other hand, there's almost a side thread talking about dressing fancily, and whether it's required or not. I think this is where some of the confusion is coming in.Should men and women dress modestly? There should be no question about it. Do you need to dress fancily for Church? To be honest, I find it pretty low on my priorities list to do a material think to honor God. He knows the heart, and that's what the core of our actions, how we dress, should be.Like loveit was saying, I believe a lot of damage has been done in many Churches by this idea of needing to dress fancier for Church. It's the judgment that we emplace: Who has the nicest clothes, who has the biggest Bible, etc. In reality, it means nothing!Now, is there use in a big Bible? Sure; maybe it has Strong's numbers. It's about context of how it's used that's important. In that same way, is there use in "dress" clothes? Yes, but usually sadly.If you walked into a Church, and saw a pastor in jeans, would you walk out? Would you judge him on his dress? Sadly, many would. They have applied a standard of outward appearance that they apply to judge what's inward, and I think wrongfully so.I love modesty, and I think it not only applies to the "skimpier" clothing that people wear, but also the "fancier" things designed to impress men.Grace and Peace...

Promoting fancy dressing for church was never my original intent in the posting of this thread. If you read my posts you will notice my concern for the damage women have inflicted upon themselves, enhanced by the styles they wear which is popularized by sinful culture, not godly culture. About being holier then thou I also suspect persons who are against dressing up for services also consider themselves to be holier then the others! So who is calling the kettle black? (IF you really want to know, my DH does not even own a tie, but wears suits when it is cold. Otherwise wears dress/casual pants and shirts for worship services. Jeans are worn for work.)If this thread is ouching you somewhere, all I suggest is prayerfully consider what you put on when you appear in public and in the church meeting house. Before you leave look in the mirror and ask the Holy Spirit if he approves of the garments you have on? Listen to what he says and do not argue with Him!We serve a HOLY GOD. We are called to holiness. We can not of ourselves be holy. We must be cleaned up washed by the blood of Jesus and be yoked up with Him ALL the time EVERY day. Immorality hurts its participants, females dreadfully so. The Bible says to not let it be named ONCE among you. So why do 'christian' women want to dress like a street walker? Again, ask the Holy Spirit in a spirit of willing obedience to teach you how you should dress yourself!ginnyrose

Whoa! Ginny, I didn't mean to insult or convey a "holier than thou art" attitude towards any who prefer fancier dress. Sometimes, it's "to each his own", and I wouldn't try to say any less. But I've gotta say the same- what's the motive? Is it because that's what you were taught to do? Then it's a culture thing, and I wouldn't try to change it. But is it to impress others?Again, Ginny, I didn't mean to try and attack you or another, but just sharing my feelings.Grace and Peace...

You want to know my motive? I am just grieved when I see so many church going girls dress like sluts! And what is the church doing about it? Maybe they just want to fit in..OK, but do you have to adapt to the culture of the gutter? I realize there is a cultural thing in which there will be legitimate differences and that is why I did not at any place share my own personal convictions. I have worked at a CPC for 15 years and the stories I have heard, the people that came to me, the ones I talked to have impacted me. And all the things I have heard all my life and did not necessarily like - at the time- were proven to be true. Women are hurt by popular culture! Among the worse things that happen is they become immoral, have a baby out of wedlock, perhaps, which they either keep or is aborted. That child needs a Dad! Females have lost the ability to blush! to be ashamed of their sin! (Would you know it was always so gratifying to see a girl cry her eyes out over her sin. It happened so rarely). Women are made to compliment men. Lets do it! Let us work, with the mercy and grace of God, to be the Proverbs 31 person. The sloppiness one sees on girls means they are denying the feminity God has given to females to compliment males! Males are masculine; females should be feminine! Maybe you are so young you have no concept of what I am talking about? If so, the situation is worse then I thought! In that case read the book "Little Women" by Louisa Alcott. True, it was written in the 1800s, in a different culture and era. But the principles are there of what I am talking about. Does this make sense? I am so sorry you could not understand what I am saying....ginnyrose

Perhaps we have had a bit of misunderstanding in the words we have used. However, I think I do understand what you are saying. I don't like to make generalities, but I do believe that Chrisitan women as a whole would do wisely to take a second look at the way they dress as well as act towards men and even around other women. I commend you for your service the last years at CPC. That can be a difficult and heart wrenching place to work. I know because I've also volunteered at a few. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but just adding to what you've said when I say that many Christians, male and female alike, should probably re-evaluate their motives or "hearts" when they get up in the morning and put on clothing, make-up, and also their attitudes. God bless you ginnyrose. I'm sorry if I've caused a bit of frustration.

The thin line of modesty is a tough one to be sure. One the one hand we do not want to be stumbling blocks to each other by exposing to much, but modesty also includes not showing off if I read 1 Timothy 2:9ff correctly. To be covered and not showy is the key. Each should also be allowed to judge in their own heart.Ginnyrose -- I feel for you -- I am younger but I too bemoan the church's lax attitdue toward dress. It is something the Paul mentioned on a couple occassions and it is just as much Scripture as John 3:16. The problem is making a destinction between saved and sinner. I don't expect the harlot off the streets to dress like my wife does when she comes to church. If she comes in in harlot garb, I have to love her anyway and preach the gospel, until conversion takes place in her heart. Once it does - I am amazed how much changes in the way of dress in people. What is inward will come out in presentation -- eventially.Blessings.

I have been thinking long and hard at what I have been trying to communicate on this thread and it seems like I have failed. I have in the past discussed this concept with other women and all have understood the problem and they have seen it also. It appears as though on this forum there are many young ones who really have no idea where modern women's lib has brought them and how it is destroying them. As I was writing I was assuming this was common knowledge and I was writing from that point. So perhaps I should recap a little history here. I have no written source to guide me at the monment. I will be writing what I remember reading and from my own experience, my experience of having grown up in rural America where dad did his share of providing food for the American dinner table by raising all kinds of grains, fowl, and animals. And I helped in this process. Up until the 19th century womens job was a given: she married, had children, kept the house and died. Depending on where you lived and how progressive your parents were the children were schooled either privately or corporately. With the industrial revolution great changes appeared on the social landscape, among them woman's suffrage, granting them voting rights and other privileges. (Some say land owership but having done some genealogical research I found I had a g-g grandmother who sold and bought land with surprising frequency in the state of IN in the 1800s). Women started to attend colleges, gaining marketable skills which eventually gave them the ability to make it financially on their own without having to depend on a male, e.g., a husband, to care for her. In the early days of college training home economics was taught. (My home ec teacher said how they were taught to butcher chickens while in college!). Women were taught homemaking skills which included home decorating, cooking, sewing, child care, human relations in a family. Now in the 20th century women were told they needed to be liberated from the home,men and children. The BC pill was introduced and women were told they can have the trill of physical intimacy with men without the committment so they can pursue their own thing. On the heels of this women discovered the thrill was not as satisfying so they started hating men, saying they were unnecessary. In the meantime, radio, tv, movies started to broadcast this philosophy via of professional singers and actors. Since people loved to be entertained, they paid money to listen to be taught this philosophy. To keep people buying the music and to keep them interested, marketers had to keep pushing the edge of common sense and moral decency so they can market their products because people tire of the same ole, same ole thing. Eventually by pushing the boundaries of common decency, they fell into the pit of the gutter. In the meantime, the fashion industry capitalized on what was happening on the music scene and used it as an opportunity to market their wares. Which came first, I do not know, but in either case they worked together like a hand in a glove. Also at this time WWII had come and gone where many females had entered the marketplace and were earning money. This concept of mothers working outside of the home became accepted and eventually very common where today it is hard to find a SAHM (stay at home mom). Until the 60s or the Beatle/hippie era, women still had the knowledge of homemaking but now it started to disappear because they started to buy into the idea they needed a career in the event their marriage failed and needed to support themselves which is exactly what happened. Homemaking skills were discarded, in the pursuit of a career in the marketplace. With this abandonment, they lost the ability to be feminine. Homemaking arts became an almost lost art. Fortunately, there are some entrepreneurs who see opportunities and are cashing on on this vacuum, e.g., Martha Pullen of "Sew Beautiful" fame. While I discussed the social changes that occurred, the church was also effected drastically. There were preachers who fought successfully the changes that were coming down the pike and in others they capitulated. Females were made by God to bear children with the husband helping her to feather that nest and provide the means of feeding these fledgings. This was so ordained by God to assure the continuity of the human race AND to provide a people upon whom to bestow his love. Women are made to be dependent on their dad then later their husband for sustenance of life and comfort. However, when women bypass this and say we will have sex with whom ever without any commitment, they hurt themselves so deeply because sex to a woman is much more then something physical: it is a spiritual, emotional thing. When she begins to go from one male to the next, she experiences deep hurt in her soul because she was looking for love, security that only a man can give. With each passing partner she experiences more rejection until her soul is destroyed. This is demonstrated in the clothes she wears. She becomes sloppy and/or exposes her body which is screaming out for more love but having no idea she is going at it totally wrong. She has lost her self respect, unknown to herself because she has abandoned her God given purpose for life which is to serve Him through others.This is the concern I had and still have because I see these trends at work among Christian people. I used to have deep respect for all church going people (I live in the Bible belt, USA). But no more because of the [single] clients I had ...they not only came from the gutter, but also were church leaders, professional religious singers. And who is speaking up to stop this devilish philosophy from destroying more young girls and boys? ginnyrose

Dear sister, I can hear the cry of your heart. I am just reapating it...The church standards have moved along with the world ones.And who is speaking up to stop this devilish philosophy from destroying more young girls and boys?

Dear GinnyroseI believe the answer is simple. It is the spirit of this age. These kids love the world, and the Word says that a friend of the world is an enemy of God. If someone is willing to forsake the world, then God is truly at work!We must pray for the young people, we need a revival! Where the holiness of God can be revealed once more! In His love,Gery

I agree, Gery.Along with that should be accountability on our parts, also. Rarely does anyone rebuke anyone else for fear of offending them, and unfortunately, that includes pastors, too. We must hold each other accountable, and disciple the younger generation, something else that is often lacking in our churches.Grace and Peace...