Once Saved Always Saved

Hello,The purpose of this post is to ask for testimonies of people who1.) once believed in OSAS/eternal security (and also what form of OSAS it was, whether it was the antinomian form or the calvinistic 'perseverence of the saints' form) etc and now do not, and why.2.) people who once did not believe in OSAS/eternal security (and also what form it was, whether antinomian or the calvinistic 'perseverence of the saints') and do believe in it now, and why. Am very eager to hear personal testimonies,Joe

No testimony but this is a lie from the enemy.Once saved always saved? So if I backslide completely I will still inherit the kingdom? No!Paul says: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!!!

I used to believe in OSAS because it was a doctrine taught in the denomination that I was a part of.At least in our church, we never studied Calvin or Arminius either as far as that goes.I'm not a theologian so I'll simply provide what the Holy Spirit told me. It was more of a rhetorical question but it adequately answered the question of OSAS in my heart and this was consistent with 1 John and many other scriptures. The question was simply "How can I be a follower of Jesus if I'm not really following Him?"This isn't a new question and if you do a search you will find a wealth of information on the topic. There's also an excellent book that has been mentioned on the site in the past by Dan Corner and here is his website: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/. If the Lord allows, I will post a more detailed response...

Dear Axe1338,So if I backslide completely I will still inherit the kingdom? No!I don't want to start a huge debate or such, (This topic has been debated once already). I just want to leave you with a question to think about. Is a person saved by faith or works? Can a person earn thier way into Heaven? If your answer is no, then I ask: How can a person earn thier way into Hell? In love,Blake

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" Hebrews 10:26-27I believe this verse completely shoots down OSAS.

Well, let me explain a bit then.When I say the antinomian version of OSAS, I am referring to the doctrine that once you have been 'saved' (usually by saying a prayer) you may do whatever you want because you are "saved by faith"When I say the calvinistic, perseverence of the saints type of OSAS, I am referring to the doctrine that says you cannot continue in sin and be a Christian, however, the belief also holds that if you are truly saved God will automatically keep you from continuuing in sin. Those who backslide totally were never really saved, according to this doctrine. Also, I do not really want this post to be a place for debating the subject... I am really only looking for your personal testimonies as to why you do or do not believe in it. In order to keep this thread on-topic, if you would like to debate with someone about their reasons... I would ask that you either go to another thread or PM those people. Thanks,Joe

When I wasn't a Christian I didn't know if I believed in eternal security or not; I didn't even know what it was. :-) However, since has God opened my eyes to see Him in His glory for who He was in all His majesty there has been no doubt in my mind that I will be spending an eternity with Him.God has done a transformation in my life that I cannot deny and I will never be able to deny. God has rescued me from my life of sin and changed my DESIRES to fix my eyes on Christ. I cannot just change my desires on my own, I especially cannot change my desires from loving sin and myself to hating sin and loving God. Praise God for this amazing gift of mercy and grace He has given to me and all who believe.And it is for this reason that "I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." - Philippians 1:6I would love to discuss further what God has done and has been doing in my life with anyone. I love to give glory to God my Father and Jesus Christ the Author and Perfecter of my faith.gzus777@gmail.comGrace and Peace,God Bless!

[I meant to send this in a PM]

Killing sin is not a prescription of how to be forgiven//It's a description of the Christian who is forgiven//By trusting in the Risen Christ who took our wrath and affliction//Killing sin is not a prescription of how to be forgiven//It's a description of the Christian who is forgiven//And the Spirit now convicts them to put off and kill their sick sin// - Timothy Brindle, Killing Sinhttp://www.lampmode.com/

I used to believe that I could lose my salvation.To be sure I prayed a prayer to Jesus Christ, asking him to save me, and my hopes rested on whether I had prayed that prayer faithfully enough. Had I said the right words? Did I really, really, really, mean it? etc. I viewed my salvation, not in terms of the gospel as described in scripture, but in terms of whether or not I felt saved at that particular moment or not. To be certain – I rarely “felt” saved. Prior to coming to Christ my sins hardly bothered me at all – unless it meant I would get caught or humiliated on account of them. But once I saw myself as a sinner, and begged Christ to save me, my awareness of sin became overwhelmingly acute. Suddenly I saw that almost everything I thought, said, or did was sinful – and I began to repent with as much strength and power as a man can repent.The trouble was that I couldn’t repent enough to be free from the feeling that I had plenty of room to go – and consequently, I never “felt” saved. I would have bouts of horrible doubt – was I really a child of God? Yes, God had delivered me from all manner of sinful living – yes my life had turned a complete 180 degrees – yes I was now in love with God, and reading scripture, and prayer – but still I was failing in some areas. I redoubled my efforts – lived for weeks in prayer – yet that didn’t stave off the doubts. I felt I was losing my salvation every time I left the throne of grace – and soon, I wasn’t even sure I was saved when I came to that throne.None of this came from scripture mind you, I just felt that one who is saved ought to have some sort of salvation feeling – you know something esoteric, yet tangible, that one can inwardly check and instantaneously and unerringly determine whether or not they are a child of God or deceived: I overlooked some of the things in my own life:- the sudden sensitivity to sin - the radical shift away from wanting my own will accomplished and towards wanting God’s will accomplished - the sudden preference for goodie-two-shoes (Christians) who formerly made my skin crawl- the sudden hunger to read the bible- the sudden desire to know God more- the peace found in prayer- the new found joy in seeing God glorifiedI never would have considered that these things bore witness to the presence of God’s spirit in my life.Now, I don’t want to confuse the issue – I didn’t feel assured of my salvation is all I am saying. But there is a difference between being assured and being secured. If you had the blood of the lamb on your lentil and doorpost in Egypt that first Passover – you were secure. You might not have felt assured, but your assurance or lack of it didn’t change the fact that you were secure. You could be resting comfortably sleeping like a baby trusting entirely in the blood of the lamb to save you, or you could be wide awake fretting about whether or not you applied the blood the right way to the lentil and the doorpost – and worrying about whether you had enough of it, or if you put it on thick enough or what have you. Your fretting doesn’t change your security – you are under the blood because of the blood, and not because you were particularly good at putting it on your doorpost.In the same way, I don’t want to confuse assurance with security. One can be entirely secure and have absolutely no assurance whatsoever because they live their life in continuing sin, just as easily as one can be entirely lost – but presuming themselves saved, resting in a deluded form of false assurance.My point is that I was not assured of my salvation – and in the strength of my doubt I felt that I was alternately saved or lost depending on how well my walk was going. Most of my early faith therefore was not spent in pursuing Jesus, but rather in pursuing the feeling of being saved. The enemy kept me from growing very much spiritually in those days. My every thought was always and ever about whether or not I was a genuine believer, and so all my study and effort was focused on myself. I needed to stay saved, and as a result I wasn’t a very effective witness for Christ, being as I was, always and ever wrapped up in my own efforts to keep myself saved, or convince myself that I was saved in the first place.Now, praise the Lord, in this time I did have a tremendous hunger for God’s word, and in the strength of this hunger, I devoured the bible. I read it cover to cover again and again – many times. Eventually what I understand now to be the truth began to sink in.In the process of conception, not every sperm finds an egg to produce life, nor does every egg become fertilized. This might seem harsh and unfair to some – but most of us accept it without giving it much thought. Some believe it is all random anyway – but even these don’t weep for all the sperm and eggs that never produce a life. When life is conceived, it is fair to say that the life that is produced was not produced in any way of its own accord. That is, the child that is conceived had no say in the matter whatsoever – having not been a person until after conception.Birth therefore is the perfect picture of our own inability. While everyone that lives today was born at some time – none of us can say that we had any part in the decision to actually be born. We were passively brought into this live by forces outside our existence. Just as the wind blows wherever it blows – we see its effect, but we have no control over it whatsoever. So too everyone who is born in the flesh is acted upon by outside forces, and life is breathed into them by God, not because of anything they have done – but because God has chosen to do so. Yes, the babe’s heart beats, and the baby breathes – and learns to eat and drink etc – but the life comes from God, and only from God.Now even if we had no bible, creation itself demonstrates that life originates with God and not with man – that is what this pictures. Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel, but he missed that. Nevertheless, Christ himself uses the imagery of birth to picture the process by which God calls men to salvation.If men actually saved themselves this sort of imagery would be inaccurate (at best). Christ used the imagery of being born however, because it is a perfect image of what is going on spiritually. We have as much a role in our being “born from above” as we have in our having been born physically – and that is to say, none whatsoever.The wind blows wherever it wishes and though we hear the sound of it, we still cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going to – all we can do is sit and watch what it does. We have no active role in what the wind is going to do – we are spectators, and passive participants. So it is with those who are born of the Spirit, just as it was those who were born of the flesh – spectators, passive participants.When I began to see that scripture teaches that God saves sinners, as opposed to sinners using God as a means to save themselves – then I began to appreciate how secure my salvation truly was.You see, when I thought I was saving myself, I was working like crazy to stay saved – because my faith was in myself – that is, my hope rested on my own ability to keep myself saved. I wasn’t trusting God to save me – I was trying to save myself – and such a hope was sifting sand, as I was and ever will be, unable to keep the law perfectly as Christ kept it. Then I realized the truth – my righteousness, according to the gospel, doesn’t save me.I had to let that sink in. I knew it was true – it is the very gospel itself – but I began to let it really speak to me. I wasn’t saved in the first place by my own righteousness – in fact Jeremiah 19:9 tells me that all my “righteousnesses” are in fact unclean – that is, if I am relying on my own ability to be good to keep me saved – I am in fact relying on something that God Himself has openly declared unclean. What a mess I had made of it. Here I was trying to stay saved – how? By works of righteousness of course!Why did I do anything righteous? To prove to myself that I was saved – of course all the righteousness I was doing was a filthy rag to God – but I felt that if I was doing the best I could – praying, studying the bible, going to church, being sincere, etc., that these things were going to keep me saved. But the reality is that I wasn’t trusting in God to save me anymore – I was trusting in my own arm to keep me saved – and it was all contrary to scripture.Yes, I could find a dozen proof texts that seemed to say that I could lose my salvation – but I could also find in the rest of scripture a message that said loud and clear – God chose me and not vice versa. I was not saved by a faith that I generated but by a faith that was given to me as a gift - if my salvation was something I manufactured, then maybe I could unmanufactured it – but if God saved me, then I was saved indeed.I could pull up all the proof texts to demonstrate that I am saved by God, and eternally so, but you asked for testimony. If a man says a prayer in order to get into heaven, and having some assurance that no matter what he is going to go to heaven – if that same person embarks on a life of sinful liberty trusting his prayer to save him, and having no remorse continues to do so until he perishes – I do not doubt for a second that the man was a tare and not a wheat.If a man says a prayer, and continues in the church for years, excelling only to one day plummet away from the church never to come again, and professing to no longer believe – I do not doubt that the man is a tare and not a wheat.These have not lost their salvation – but have never been saved in the first place – their conversion was false, and whatever external evidence was given as witness to their salvation was not given in love of the Lord, but rather in love of self – to garner respect, or even to secure for themselves a certainty of their own salvation. Whatever the case – they went out from us because they were not of us – had they been of us they would not have gone out from us – but the fact that they did go out from us demonstrates that they were never really saved in the first place.So the person that falls away and “no longer believes” – according to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints – as I understand it – and I think I have the common understanding – is not losing his salvation, nor is he keeping it – he was never saved to begin with.“Once saved always saved” doesn’t mean that if you say some salvation prayer you are saved no matter what – it means that if you are genuinely born again you will persevere to the end because you are genuinely born again. The fact that you persevere demonstrates the genuine nature of your salvation. If you fall away – it demonstrates that you were not genuine.Tares look like wheat – that is the problem.

Dann,Excellent post!My own experience is that I had begun as a Christian like a house on fire, and like most I was arminian in my thinking, I thought that I had come to Christ and that I had to maintain my standing in faith (there are after all several verses in the bible that imply that).After several years of intense bible study and searching for truth I came to the conclusion that the Bible was contradictory and powerless to change me. I fell away hard.After seven years of living a very un-Christian life, I was "spoken to" in the very center of my being. It was a clear voice, not my own, and He said to me "There's a better way".I've had my eye's opened to the truth found in John 6:37-39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out....This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day,"The Father gave ME to the Son before the foundation of the earth (Eph. 1:4) and the Son will not lose me. This is Gods' plan, all I do is rest in that plan. You might think this is too simple!!! Once I entered into His rest I had victory over the sins that used to dog me when, in my arminian mind set I used to struggle in my flesh to do what He had already done for me on the cross. Does this mean I have arrived? No, I have just begun. I feel sorry for those who believe they must do something to maintain a gift that was freely given, and pray that the eyes of our understanding would be opened to see ALL that the Father has for those whom he has called.

I want to get back to this, but here is a favorite verse of mine - Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.AMEN!

repentCanada - amen to that.Only those who persevere are genuinely saved. Those who do not persevere (that is, those who go out from us) demonstrate that they are not saved (because they are not of us). Had they persevered (That is, if they remain amongst us), they would have demonstrated the genuine nature of the salvation - but anyone who can deny God doesn't have God's spirit - and never had God's Spirit.Only those with God's Spirit will endure.

When I was a very young Christian I was praying about whether OSAS is true. I felt the Lord speak to me and ask, "In the end, where are you saved from?" I said, "Hell." "When is it possible that you can go there?" I said," After I die?" "You must endure to the end."I don't think at all its debatable about the one who says," I've prayed a prayer and now I can do what ever because my flesh is weak and I live by faith." That person is going to Hell. It's a damnable heresy. Now the one who says, "I am once saved always saved. Look at my fruits. I strive to live a holy life before God. And God will not let me fall." Although I believe that you can "fall away", I would not take much or any time discussing it with them, unless of course they specifically asked. The first one on the other hand, I would do anything possible that they might see truth. A holy life is what is demanded, whether you believe that you can live unholy after you have came to the Holy One, or not.

Where does this fit into the equation:Hosea 14:4I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely, For My anger has turned away from him.

Where does this fit into the equation:Perfectly! Right with these.1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Now the one who says, "I am once saved always saved. Look at my fruits. I strive to live a holy life before God. And God will not let me fall." Although I believe that you can "fall away", I would not take much or any time discussing it with them, unless of course they specifically asked.You know, I believe we always look at the question from the wrong point of view. That is our performance, what is requried of us, etc. But we should step back and look at salvation from God's point of view and what it entails.To be saved is to be regenerated. That is through calling on the Lord Jesus Christ who died for us and resurrected, we believe into HIm and we are made alive in our spirit. Our spirit which is dead by nature is resurrected and indwelt by the Living resurrected Christ as the Life Giving Spirit.Can this be undone? No. Paul says, "the Spirit HImself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God and if children, heir also. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him.To be regenerated is to have God's life within us. It is to be born of God and to recive HIs very life and nature. That makes us heirs of God through birth.The Apsotle John says in 1 John 5: God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the Life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life."Eternal Life is not a place, a state, or a condition. Eternal Life is the Life of God which is in Christ and which we recive into us when we beieve into Him (John 3:16).Eternal Life is the Life of God which is Eternal in nature. On the Other hand, to be "joint heirs with Christ' requries us to "suffer with Him that we also might be glorified together with Him. To be born of God and to recieve His eternal Life only requires us to repent and believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and be born of God. But to be a joint heir with Christ in His Kingdom requires us to grow in Life, to mature, to suffer with Him and to be faithful. The Kingdom is a reward, but Eternal Life is the Gift of God which we do not earn by our works or by our this or that. We are born of God and have His life and therefore members of His household. It is not based in our performance.Having said that, if we are Born of God, it will bear fruit. We have HIs life within us and He has predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the First Born among many brothers." God who has redeemed us, justified us, regenerated us, and is commited to sanctifying us will obtain what He has begun in us one way or another. If the scritpures are studied carefully, it will be seen that every reference to enduring and finishing our course and obtaining the "out resurrection of the dead, which are all conditional are always related to the reward of the Kingdom, not eternal Life. The Kingdom preceeds the New Jeruselem which is the consumation of the Bible and the eternal state of the redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, and transfigured believers.But the Kingdom and reigning with Christ for 1000 years is a reward to those who overcome and to those who are not slothful but are faithful servants who love HIm and suffer with Him, who deny themselves, take their cross and follow Him.Graftedbranch

Amen preachparsly.

I used to lean a little towards both sides of the eternal security debate as a began to grow as a new born Christian. I think that the parable of the sower explains it all.In this line of thinking, those who are in good ground, and those in the thorny are both saved. One serves heartily, the other has as Alan Redpath put it, "a saved soul and a wasted life."The stony ground hearer is the one that shows outward evidence of salvation, but was never truly saved. The last type heard the Word but wanted no part of it.I don't see that God would save someone, and then unsave them. So I think this is the reason for all of the verses that speak of eternal security:John 10:28 "...they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."Rom 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life."Now in the same breath, I think the average person who says, "I'm saved," is not. Someone told them they were saved, or they were lead in a prayer, or maybe they just made their mind up they were to make others leave them alone. I told someone I was saved when I was young to make a guy leave me alone.After I was converted, I spent quite a while in distress not knowing if it was genuine. So while I don't think God 'unsaves' people, I think their are many who say they are, but know something is wrong, and really don't want to dig into the Word or talk with people about it, becuase they know that their true state will be exposed.Have I ever doubted my salvation? Yes. Because of how often I saw myself letting Christ down. How do I know I was saved? Because I was so convicted. And I still am whenever I ignore the Holy Spirit. The only way to have a good guess whether or not someone is saved is to spend much time with them, and even then they can fool you. The issue I bring forward is that just because someone shows some progress like: going to church, prayer, reading Scripture, etc, this does not mean they are saved. So my argument would be that just because we see people 'fall away', we cannot conclude that they lost their salvation. I say they were never cleansed with living water, they merely tasted the water. They hung around with the Holy Spirit for a while, and didn't like the idea of taking up a cross. These are the type that ring out with "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED." While I believe that statement, I don't find it anywhere in Scripture, nor do I think it does good from the pulpit. Just as "Jesus loves you" is true, but ineffective and incomplete as an evangelistic tool.There are multitudes of unsaved people who pass as saved, and multitudes of converted people that are very worldly. I don't sweat it as that will all be taken care of at the Judgment. Let's just make sure we will be able to stand on the day.2 Pet 1:10 "..make your calling and election sure.."

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" Hebrews 10:26-27I believe this verse completely shoots down OSAS.Wow! Be careful to check the context! The writer is talking about the Israelites who had it all: the cloud, the pillar of fire, the laws, the Spirit of Christ in the desert, the manna,etc and YET they REFUSED. What else would save them? Nothing!! God gave them every chance. And so they were CUT OFF, like a branch, cut from the vine - as a nation/people group/. I think we have to distinguish between people groups and individuals. There will always be individuals who turn to the Lord, even if the goup they are a part of refuses as a whole, and even if God's judgment fall on them. Today we have it all - all that we need, and yet many REFUSE. They may look saved, act saved, but that doesn't mean that they have really ever ENTERED HIS REST. This debate goes on forever I think because of our weak understanding of salvation. When God saves someone he rescues them from themselves. Self is crucified. They become new creations. And if they are truely God's children, then he DISCIPLINES them to refine them. If he didn't NO ONE could hold on to their own salvation.Some questions: Does salvation depend on God or man? What is man's responsibility, and what is God's responsibility? There is much yet to think about before we can come to terms with this debate. Maybe we are often asking the wrong questions.Diane

To be saved is to be regenerated.Just trying to think things out here...Does this mean salvation=regeneration? Doesn't salvation encompass much more than just regeneration? There is a deliverance from something implied in salvation, deliverance from what?Also, how does the following verse fit into the OSAS equation?I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jud 1:5)In Christ,Ron

Dear Brethren,Allow me to add to this post out of my personal experience. I got saved 1992, out of a life of drugs and other religions. In 1999, I backslid so bad that I was using worse drugs than before 1992. Got involved in the Rave-scene, lived in adultery and fully denied the Lord Jesus for 5 years. In January this year, God was merciful to me. By His grace, my wife and I repented of our sin, and am now living for the Lord again. I am sorry, but I can not imagine going to Heaven, if I was to die, during my fallen state. Some would say: "Maybe you were never saved in the first place?" I can assure you that 1992 was a true meeting with God, just as January 2005.Imagine standing before God after dying of an overdose! Please, let us get real and honest about things here. Beware of the pitfall of Antinomiasm!Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the LordI think for many who do believe in OSAS, it is an excuse to live in sin!In His love for all of us,Gery

Just trying to think things out here...Does this mean salvation=regeneration? Doesn't salvation encompass much more than just regeneration? There is a deliverance from something implied in salvation, deliverance from what?In the Scritpures "Salvation" is presented in different aspects. There is initial salvation which is "regeneration". That brings the Eternal Life of God into us and regenerates our dead spirit and makes us children of God. Then there is daily salvation from sin, from self, from the world, and from satan. This is experienctal salvation and it is daily.Then there is final salvation when the Lord returnes and transfigures this body of death into the likenss of His resurrected body.There are then three aspects of slavation. Past, present, and future. IN Philippians Paul says, "I know this will turn out for my salvation through your prayers and the abundant supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ". This is a present salvation in our present situation and experience and it is by the supply of the Spirit of Jesus christ.The Children of Isreal were saved when they struck the blood and ate the Lamb in the passover. That is they were spared from God's judgement and by eating the Lamb they were strengthed to come out of Egypt.This is initial salvation. It delivers us from condemnation. It justifies us through the Blood of the Lamb and also constitutes us with Christ in regeneration making us children of God by "eating of His flesh and drinking His blood" as the Lord said, "unless you do this you have no life in yourself." Eating the Lamb brings the Life of God into us regenerating us.But then there is the practical salvation of comming out of the World, of passing through the red sea and passage through the wilderness. Finally there is the entering into the good land which is a type of Christ as our all sufficient good land, satisfaction, and dwelling place.IN our experience we must pass through all these stages. But our going this way is predicated on our initial salvation which redeems us, justifies us, and brings God's eternal Life into us making us His children with HIs Life and His Nature.Graftedbranch

I am sorry, but I can not imagine going to Heaven, if I was to die, during my fallen state. Some would say: "Maybe you were never saved in the first place?" I can assure you that 1992 was a true meeting with God, just as January 2005.Brother, the issue is whether or not you were regenerated and had the Life of God within you. YOu cannot be justified by Christ and then lose it and be justifed again because salvation is not based in our works. If you died in that state like the fornicater in 1st Corinthians of whom Paul 'Gave over to Satan for the distruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved in that day", you would have suffered loss of reward and not enjoyed the riches of reigning with Christ in His Kindome. But you would be saved. You would not perish because you are His and you have His life within your spirit. You are redeemed and justified. but like this one in 1 cor: you repented and went on and you too are able to go on and mature in the Divine Life to become one who is an overcommer.If we "cannot imangine it' it is only because we have a small view of the effacacy of Christ's Blood and the sufficiency of His redemption and His Eternal Salvation.Our salvation is based in Christ alone and our union with Him and the application of His redeeming death and resurrection Lfie. It is not based in our performance.This is not antinomianism. It is the revelation of the Word of God and because the Life of God is in you, you were not left in that state but God is faithful and will accomplish in you what He has begun. The very fact that you were not allowed to continue in your condition is evidence that you are Christ's and He leaves the 99 and goes after the One who has gone astray. No one is able to snatch you from His hand.God's goal is not heaven but sons of God sharing in His glory as the New Jeruselem. You are His and "no one is able to snatch you out of His hand."Graftedbranch

The Lord said "He that overcometh, I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." So, those who are saved but choose not to fight the good fight and overcome, their name will be blotted out. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Crankbait,This thread was supposed to be for testomonies for or against OSAS.Jesus also said, "Therefore you are to be PERFECT, as your heavenly Father is perfect". Matt.5:48Have you done that today? Have you perfectly obeyed in every thought and deed? You could always do more you know. So what is the basis for your right standing before God? Have you overcome PERFECTLY today? If you were to die this very night what would be your justification before the Father? Your good works, or Christs work on the Cross?"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." That leaves you and I out then doesn't it?Our rightesousness at any given moment is derived from our relationship to Him, none of our good deeds will add to that, for apart from Him all our righteous deeds are but filthy rags.You are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God. You can't add to that, try as you may.

A word study is needed here. The actual translation for this isn't "perfect" as was translated in our english. In the scriptural text (manuscripts) it means to be "complete" and "mature", yet with our limited vocabulary it was translated as "perfect". In our definition it would mean "flawless" (like a diamond), or without spot or blemish, which is not attainble till we receive our new bodys and get to heaven.

I got saved 1992, out of a life of drugs and other religions. In 1999, I backslid so bad that I was using worse drugs than before 1992. Got involved in the Rave-scene, lived in adultery and fully denied the Lord Jesus for 5 years. In January this year, God was merciful to me. By His grace, my wife and I repented of our sin, and am now living for the Lord again.Gery, there is nothing in your testimony here that I would use to form any doctrine regarding salvation. John 3 talks about the Spirit blowing and we can't see it or understand what it is doing. I simply cannot know from what you wrote what the SPIRIT was doing in your life, though I know that he was working ALL ALONG. God had his eye on you. And he never let you go your own stuborn ways, did he? He is not finished with you yet. PTL Salvation is a divine work, and God has our entire lives to do his work within us. I also, by the way do not hold to the "what if... "theology ie "what if you should have died .... " There are no "what if's" in God's plans. Would he really helplessly let someone just slip through his fingers? Would he let someone go to hell, if he knew that they were going to cry out for his salvation? He is not willing that any should perish. He is very patient. We must remember that there are many who go from the worldly sins into the sins of hypocrisy. The latter they look very good, very saved. They may have "gone forward", "asked Jesus into their heart" and adopted all the ways of a good Christian. But that doesn't mean they were born from above. When the Spirit gives new birth, that is, birth from above, they have new life, abundant life. They have a new master. They have the Spirit speaking to them, guiding them, interpreting Scripture to them. etc etc. I have to admit that I have seen a lot of cleaned-up people, they were perhaps saved from sin, but they still are trusting in themselves for their salvation. They still remain blind and in unbelief. They are like lost Israel in the desert. I was one of them. But, God, thankfully, brought me to true life in him. And there is a very big difference!! I would have never known those earlier years that there could have been something so very different. It's like this: "How can you ever know what color is if you have never experienced it? Only when you can see it, then you realize that you really did NOT see it before, though you thought you did. Diane

Lamuskrat,Okay then, you must be "complete" and "mature" AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER is complete and mature. Anyone out there do that today?

I know this is futile...but im going to ask one more time that people only give their testimonies as to why they do or do not believe... Please do not debate with the other members over their testimonies.

I know this is futile...I agree, it is futile. And it may be even lead to faulty conclusions. The Holy Spirit is the better person to seek when you want to understand spiritual truths. Let him guide you to people whose life journeys will help shed light on the truth. My testimony: I was saved twice. The first time by the efforts of the flesh, after listening to the voice of man. I was sincere. The second time it was a supernatural work of God. God was sincere. After the first salvation, I sometimes shared my testimony. And it all seemed exactly right. It was a good testimony. But it was a form of godliness without the power. If you had asked me then, I would have given you a good answer. But it would not have been of any use to you. I never "back slid" in between. Instead, it was through many trials in life that I realized that I was trusting in self, and man. (a very unconscious thing) - through Spirit conviction. I rejoice that God took away my first "salvation" because it would have never withstood the final fires. It didn't originate with him, whereas the second did. I would have never seen any need to change my allegiance if God hadn't showed me how hopeless it was. If you are wondering about your own condition before the Lord, I encourage you to ask God to let you know - even if it means going through painful trials. In the end, it will be worth it. Diane

i was saved over 40 years ago and soon thereafter i began to minister with a big time baptist evangelist. i was a street evangelist then associate evangelist then i would preach in the smaller churces the boss was invited to. i saw that the boss became less interested in the salvation of souls and more in success. he became very successful and i pegged him as a phony and went back in the nightclub business on bourbon st. in new orleans. many christians came by and told me how i was going to hell and some said that i greived the Holy Spirit. i was kicked out of the baptist church that i was a member of by the pastor and the board of deacons. if anyone said that they were christians i avoided them and there condscention. a man came up to me on the street one day and asked me if my name was jim and if i was from baltimore, because his name was ron and he was from there. he invited me for coffee around the corner and we went. he told me that God had sent him to tell me that God loved as much that day as he did when i was preaching. the Holy Spirit fwelled up inside of me and i began to sob and tremble in contrition. the love of Jesus was overwhelming . finger pointing christians can never convict of sin only the Spirit can convict of sin. you must be born from above. you cannot birth anyone into the kingdom of God.only God can . in the garden adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not frrom the tree of life. salvation is in the tree of life not of works, good or evil, lest i become puffed up and point my fingers to someone other then theSavior,His blood, his covenant,His grace and mercy, His power to keep me, His love that holds me as His bond slave. i will trst HIm and His blood sacrifice for eternal security.Which sin is greater than His blood. i will rest in jesus Christ and his finished work and if i go to hell doing it than i will. jimp

Quote:"I am sorry, but I can not imagine going to Heaven, if I was to die, during my fallen state. Some would say: "Maybe you were never saved in the first place?" I can assure you that 1992 was a true meeting with God, just as January 2005."Dear Gery,You remind me of Leonard Ravenhill's words; "a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument".God bless you,MartinJames 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I know this is futile...but im going to ask one more time that people only give their testimonies as to why they do or do not believe... Brother I believe it it futile becuase "OSAS" cannot be determined by testimony, but by the revelation in the Scriptures. Our experience confirms truth and testifies to truth and expresses truth but our experience never establishes truth.Graftedbranch

I was saved at age 17, went to bible school and followed the Lord strongly for a time. I was a person who held up high standards as to what I believed God expected of me. And eventually I began to live under condemnation all the time. Eventually I got so fed up and discouraged I said, "at least people in the World arn't miserable all the time. For a time I went off into the world and tried to forget I was a Christian and acted like I was not a Christian and found new friends who did not know I was a Christian so I would not "dishonor the Lord'by acting like one of them. This went on for about 2 years.Finally I was convictied to return to the Lord but I still had mountians of Condemnation. I finaly cried to the Lord and said, "Lord, I don't know where I am or what my condition is. who can know their own heart? I Call on you. Show me from your word, and let me see myself in Your Light.The Lord led me to John. As I read the verse," My Sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me and I give eternal Life to them and they shall never persih and no one is able to snatch them out of my hand". The Spirit inpressed this verse upon me in power. It was the Very word of the Lord Jesus to me. My sense of condemnation disolved forever. The Spirit in my spirit quickened this verse to me in a way that dispelled all the lies of the enemy that had kept me in bondage for years.From that Point on I began to come to the Lord alone as my teacher and instructer. I said, "Lord, all these truths in the scripture conserning the cross, the Spirit, and the Victorious Christian life, They are either for me or they are not. They are either true for me or they are not." When I took this position, the Scritpures came alive to me. I began to experience the reality of all the great truths I had learned in Bible School and in my study of scritpure. I began to experience Christ as my indwelling Living Lord and Saviour, my teacher, comforter, and everything.And today I know that salvation is not based in my performance or my living by a certian standard. But rather it is based in the redemption in christ Jesus. I have been born of HIs Spirit. I have His eternal Life within me and I will never persish. I could only perish if the Son of God Himself who is within me could perish.Graftedbranch

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hello JFEdgar,I have never believed that a person once saved is always saved, when younger I suppose I may have considered the idea but then a quick reading of God's word always brought me back to reality. I have observed that the embracing of OSAS seems to have to do with our standing or our footing with God. The Terror of the Lord is not a pleasant thing to deal with and people want to relegate those kind of thoughts to the distant past to back when before they were saved. Yet the Bible clearly teaches that the Terror of the Lord is something that the person who has had a genuine experience with God may still one day have to deal with if he should choose to forsake the narrow path, that is why the Bible is so full of warnings to resist the devil and to be diligent to follow the Lord. Do we really expect to be able accept the Lord's sacrifice of his Son, but ignore his Holy Spirit? The Lord has more work to do than just the work of his Son on the cross, now his Holy Spirit must work his work in you to lead you on to heaven. Just as the Jews put the blood on the door posts in Egypt and were safe for that night, but lets not forget that most of them died cursed in the desert because they would not obey the voice of the Lord. For more information on this subject please read the Bible for yourself. Beware of universities and churches and books that use logic and reasoning to contradict the Bible. I would humbly suggest that anyone who is genuinely looking for the truth in this matter to carefully consider the scriptures below and then follow up by searching the whole of the Bible for themselves. This is not really a debatable topic as far as the Bible is concerned.2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Deu 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end...1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed: Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed: Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. Mat 25:29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~THE BIBLE MAKES IT PERFECTLY CLEAR THAT THERE ARE CONDITIONS THAT MUST BE MET IF A PERSON EXPECTS TO BE SAVED. HEAR WHAT DAVID WILKERSON SAYS: A PERFECT HEART HAS BEEN PART OF COVENANT FAITH FROM THE TIME GOD FIRST SPOKE TO ABRAHAM: I AM THE ALMIGHTY GOD; WALK BEFORE ME AND BE THOU PERFECT" GEN. 17:1. LATER GOD REMINDED THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, "THOU SHALT BE PERFECT WITH THE LORD THY GOD" DEUT.18:13. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WE SEE THAT GOD'S COMMAND FOR HIS PEOPLE TO BE PERFECT IS RENEWED IN HIS SON. JESUS SAID, "YOU SHALL BE PERFECT JUST AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT" MATT. 5:48

i will trst Him and His blood sacrifice for eternal security.Amen! Praise God!Great testimony.

Brother I believe it it futile becuase "OSAS" cannot be determined by testimony, but by the revelation in the Scriptures. Our experience confirms truth and testifies to truth and expresses truth but our experience never establishes truth.To Graftedbranch:Hey brother, I agree with this, except instead of saying "Revelation in scriptures" I would like to change it to "Revelation OF scriptures" (as in, by the Holy Spirit). You cannot "flesh out" the scriptures, no matter how learned you are. I know of people who have read the bible literally hundreds of times, many who have memorized the majority of the New Testament, who hold doctrines that would make the majority of truly born again Christians nauseous. Anyway, that is not the point of this post. On SermonIndex there have been many posts in the past that were for the purpose of debating the scriptures about OSAS. The moderators, it seems, generally like subjects not to repeat themselves, and they like you to go back to the old posts if you would like to bring that up again. This, however, is different than just debating the subject (if i wanted to debate it, i would have brought up one of the past discussions about OSAS)... i wanted to hear testimonies. To all:From what I have seen in the thread so far, it seems that God has used truth from both sides mightily for His glory. This has only confirmed my strong belief that there is some truth to both sides of the argument. There is a balance here, it seems, and I refuse to stretch certain verses to fit my doctrinal slant to one side or the other. Instead, it has been confirmed in my heart that I need to be content in waiting for the Holy Spirit to reveal to me how the very obvious meaning of Rom 11 fits with the very obvious meaning of Rom 8 (just two small examples in the very large wealth of scriptures for both sides). I refuse to stretch either one so that I may establish a "systematic theology". I want God's truth, all else is vain. It is a fear of mine that I would one day sacrifice the Truth of God (Christ, John 14:6) for a doctrine that may make sense to me but was never revealed. Amen? By God's grace I will be patient, and wait for the Truth Himself, as He makes Himself known to me more and more each day. To God be the praise and the glory for His patience with us and the grace He works in us!Love,Joe

. It is a fear of mine that I would one day sacrifice the Truth of God (Christ, John 14:6) for a doctrine that may make sense to me but was never revealed. Amen?Amen!I wonder how much error still resides in the recesses of our minds - I suspect far more then we could imagine. We tend to squeeze spiritual truths into the confines of our own subjective reality - like pouring new wine into old wineskin. I praise God, that he disciplines his own, and constantly adjusts our thinking, transforming it to the mind of Christ. IN the process, we might look very unrefined, very flawed, maybe even very unsaved. We may fail miserably, like so many Bible characters whom God put to the test. I think it is impossible to even share meaningful on this topic OSAS when our very foundational understanding of salvation varies. In my observation it seems that many of the OSAS supporters have a very shallow view of Salvation - or rather a far too broad definition - far too inclusive. No wonder we need to keep up the debate, and the OSAS keeps getting challenged. And it is good to examine our own lives. Thank you for bringing this up. Diane

I agree with this, except instead of saying "Revelation in scriptures" I would like to change it to "Revelation OF scriptures" (as in, by the Holy Spirit).Amen Brother, We need both. We need the objective revelation in the Scritpures and we need the revelation of the Scritpures to us subjectively.The One is the "Faith once for all delivered to the Saints" and the other is our subjective appreciation of it, entering into the reality of the Truths in Scripture. The Spirit within us brings us into the reality of those objective truths in the Bible. As the Lord said in JOhn 14 IN that Day (when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you...."Graftedbranch

Graftedbranch wrote:We need the objective revelation in the Scritpures and we need the revelation of the Scritpures to us subjectively.I have come to your post three times, just to think about it. I believe that these words are like a sharp-edged sword, distinguishing those who belong to Christ and those who do not. This morning I received the following meditation from Chip Brogden, which adds the needed "punch" to your words, Graftedbranch.by Chip Brogden: "There is a difference between salvation and a Savior; between deliverance and a Deliverer; between healing and a Healer; between redemption and a Redeemer. The first is a “thing”, the second is a Person. This may sound self-evident and elementary, but before God the difference is vast, and in actual experience the difference is incalculable. If we are not clear on the matter of His Son we will find the Christian life very difficult, if not impossible, to live. I have the “thing” because I have Him; having Him, I do not need to search for the “thing” anymore. What do you have? An experience? A word? A doctrine? A belief? Or a Man? This is the difference between a living Christianity and a dead religion." Taken from this article: The Gift of Christ

Dear JFEdgar:I appreciate your desire to seek the truth concerning the matter, even withholding from "stretching" the Word to fit a slant; perhaps, that is what many of us do without a second thought. I hope that what I am about to say doesn't do that (and I know the people on here to be quite diligent and faithful to correct errors in the fold).Alright, so Romans 8 claims: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Well, wherein is Christ's love, but that " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Well, doesn't that mean God loves sinners? And so, in loving sinners, God even loves them that are in Hell--even Hitler, Stalin, Kantz, Freud, and others who stood so harshly against His Word.Wouldn't the most painful torment be the clarity in which all sinners must view the loss of the Great Pearl (Christ's love and sacrifice)? That which was supposed to bring life (Christ's resurrection) is now become Satan's greatest flaunt and derision in the face of the condemned. Yet, God still even loves Lucifer, His "Seal of Perfection" (Eze. 28)! Well, Romans 11 only confirms this, since it says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom. 11:22) See, to be grafted into God's vine (Christ), the nutrients and characteristics of the vine will flow into the branches, and as long as the vine is connected to the branch more and more of its life will flow into the branch. Therefore, a branch that is not filling up with this life is broken, disconnected, and in need of reattachment or destruction. It is why Christ spoke the parable of the planter who begged: "Lord, give me another year, that I might fertilize the plant; and if it not grow then cut it down: but if it grow, then may it be let be".OSAS only allows people to be complacent, leaving off the purifying that Christ so longs in His people; America thus evidences much of that.

That is a pretty good illustration, but I was referring to the part earlier in Romans 8 (mainly v.28 until it gets to the part you quoted). The point I was making was that there are scriptures that seem to argue for both sides, within the same epistle! Obviously there must be a balance here, Paul knew what he meant, I just wish I did. I mostly lean towards your side of the argument, but there are still some scriptures that I see that seem to need to be stretched in order to reject OSAS altogether. The reason I am not posting them is because I do not really want a long list of explanations from people on both sides (i have heard most), I just want God to reveal it in His timing. One major problem that I see is that quite often, one side will see their side in scripture, then see the other side and say "Well, Paul said this so he couldnt possibly have meant that, it must mean something else!" But the other side does the same. So both sides have their very clear scriptures, and then they have a whole list of explanations for the ones that do not fit perfectly. As Keith Daniel once said... "Am I a calvinist? Am I an Arminian? Oh my! I dont know! They are both in the scriptures!"

If my mother that conceived in her womb the seed of my father had gotten an abortion, would I still exist? If it takes a soul to give life by the breath of God, then conception is not possible with out that life in womb being breathed into existence by God. You say, God only needed to breath the breath of Life once into Adam and the process carries on to all offspring. We were conceived in sin from our mother's womb. We did not have a choice, we were of our father the devil. Who made the choice to conceive me, was it my mother and father, or was it my spirit which I received from Adam who chose Satan as our spirit father?All these questions have only one explanation, God is in control of all. He created all and is most able to deal with all creation, all sin, all life and bring into His Will anything that is necessary to accomplish it for His own pleasure. God has never given an abortion to any of His offspring. If we are born again of Spirit by Christ Jesus the Incorruptable Seed of the Father being placed in us, we are then offspring of the Father, and nothing, NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God. Once born of the Father always born of the Father. I believe that is why God allows abortion to show us how impossible it is for the Born again of Spirit and Water (the Word) to loose this New Life of Christ in is the hope of Glory. Man in his mind and body and soul and the spirit of Satan, his father can abort life, because that is Satan's purpose from the beginning to destroy the creation of God and show his power over God. God cannot destroy created life or birthed life of Himself or none would be saved, there would be no Hell, to contain those that don't believe forever in separation from the God that is the creator of all life, created or Spiritually Birthed by Himself. If we are saved by God, How can we become unsaved by aborting the Seed of the Father? Man can only abort his own flesh seed, he cannot abort the Spiritual life Seed of Christ, only the Father could do this, and He will not abort His own birthed and only begotten Son or any son's that have been birthed by the Seed of Christ that is in all that believe.Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.Christ is our Root.Birthed by Christ in me, never to be aborted: Phillip

Hi there... This is my first post, so forgive me if it doesn't come through quite right...!I have been thinking a lot about this subject over the last few months - mainly because a friend has recently, (openly!) turned his back on God and His word. And I've had a few questions come to mind...>John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so Loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.- I've considered this passage (and the many others like it) and wondered what the true definition of the word 'believe' is (I'm of the opinion that the first step in any argument is to decide on word definitions)... Does this word imply an 'act' or a 'state of being'? In other words, do you have to 'believe once' and be saved or 'believe continually' (or 'to the end') and be saved…?>Ephesians 2:8,9 (NIV) - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.- This one can be quite confusing for me, and I don't know whether its a translation issue or what... - "and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 1. Does this refer to the 'faith' as well as the 'grace'...? In which case we play absolutely no part (including faith... and thus belief)...2. Or does this refer only to the 'grace'... In which case our part is faith (belief), and thus we only receive the ‘grace’ through the ‘faith‘... - At this point we must again ask... an 'act' of faith or a 'state of being' in faith...?- "not by works, so that no one can boast."...Once again... does this refer to the 'faith' and the 'grace', or just the 'grace'...? The grace - Our salvation cannot be boasted about at any time from any perspective... Since it was Jesus who died for all sin and rose from eternal death, we have no part at all in the act of saving from sin … We cannot boast that anything we did took away our sin… And nothing we do can give us eternal life… These things were, are and always will be possible only for God. The faith - Can we really boast about this…? Can ‘faith’ in Christ save us…? I say no… It is not the faith in Christ that brings salvation, but the Christ in the faith who brings salvation… Thus faith is nothing to boast about in terms of salvation…… But then again… To me the scriptures are full - on the surface - of ‘seeming’ contradictions about these things… There are so many aspects that need to be considered - the language; word definitions; context; literality or non-literality; etc…All I can say for certain is this… The Bible is the Word of the Only Living God… He uses it to teach us about Himself and about ourselves… And if we seek Him we will find Him, if we seek Him with all our hearts…God BlessPhil

Phil,Remember when you see someone "fall away" from God, that Peter denied the Lord publicly with cursing and swearing, and yet was restored. And when he was restored it was with gentleness and grace, not accusations and a "how could you?" attitude.

There are so many aspects that need to be considered - the language; word definitions; context; literality or non-literality; etc… There is also the problem of our own mindsets. We filter everything through a grid of our life-views, our cultural setting, our religious background. I think that is one reason why we can’t figure this out. The other reason is that spiritual truth is discerned spiritually, not by natural thinking. So, we will never figure out God’s truths if we are trying to fit it into our own minds. I find it interesting that when people talk about those who “fall away” they never bring up Galatians – all those who started out in faith, but soon abandoned the faith by going back to trust in the law. These were the dedicated ones who LOOKED the most SAVED ! They were not the ones who occasionally slipped and took a drink, or had an affair. I have seen many who got saved (?), and then quickly become “bewitched”, as Galatans would put it. They soon lived out their lives trusting in their own flesh and their observance of law. They are the ones whom we normally do not regard to as “falling away’ but rather as those who are persevering!!! They are the model “Christians”, dedicated, clean, well behaved. They read the Bible and pray, etc….. Think about that! Isn’t there a significant perversion of truth in the way we view perseverance, salvation, belief, obedience, etc? Are not the majority of “Christians” in the above “camp” – like the Galatians? That would include those debating OSAS. How will they ever see truth as long as they are not able to discern the Spirit? A thought in answer to an earlier question about faith: The book of Hebrews uses Israel’s unbelief to help us understand what it means to fall away. They, as a nation, refused to TRUST. They refused to enter God’s rest. They preferred to trust in themselves. And the Israelites, being typical, believed like everyone around them. So as a nation they fell away, in spite of the blessings, the glory cloud, the presence of the Spirit, the word, etc etc. . However, there were individuals who remained faithful, just as in the church in Sardis: "Yet, you have a few in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes." Rev. 3:4I think that Hebrews speaks about people groups (which can fall away altogether. Likewise denominations (that started by the power of the Spirit) drift away. It takes usually one or two generations to drift. Now, regarding individuals: I ask, is not the refusal to trust in the sufficiency of God’s atonement the sin that Hebrews warns about? It would seem that to refuse to believe OSAS is a sin because it is an indication of unbelief. If we don’t trust in God’s salvation – even to all eternity, then we are living in unbelief. And look at all the problems caused by unbelief. (hypocrisy, dead churches, messed up lives, compromise with the world, etc) PS, I believe that trusting in God’s salvation is not the same as trusting in our own opinion about our salvation. Diane

Hello All,I believe this article speaks to an underlying problem nowadays with any discussion along this line, namely the confusing of legitimate works commanded by our Lord with illegitimate works not born out of faith in Christ but out of obedience to the old Jewish faith or even perhaps the false Catholic faith or anything else other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I personally don't know of one soul other than myself that would agree with this article. If this article is true then it would appear that the Gospel has been hijacked by 16th-18th century protestant intellectuals and branded with their own version of hyper-faith which more and more seems to be the case to me. There is a huge difference between crawling up steps on your knees, and scripturally seeking to be holy and pure as commanded by the Lord and his Apostles. Maybe the reformers went a little overboard on the Justification by Faith side of things in reaction to the false doctrines of works then being taught by the Catholics. Justification by Faith and Works by William Law (Published 1760)

Hi phil_hook...!Welcome aboard -- and thanks for your comments. I have been reading through this thread, as well as numerous older threads on the topic. I noticed that there are people who do not believe that someone who truly loves God will walk away from the Lord. While I cannot understand why someone could do this -- it has happened. There was a guy in my high school that also attended the same Church as my family. I went to Church because my parents forced me to. But "Pete" went out of what seemed to be pure love for Jesus. This young man was a very quiet and humble teenager. Neither of his parents went to Church. Pete was from a violent and poor home, and it was remarkable that God did such a work in his life without much family help. He would quietly live the life -- while also patiently preaching the Gospel at school. He had been serving God with great eagerness since the seventh grade. Pete would sometimes spend the night at my house (at my parents' invitation). Although we had little in common (I was quite popular in school, and I was not a believer -- and somewhat agnostic), Pete enjoyed staying in our home. He loved to see my parents' computer Bible programs, as well as our library of Christian books and reference materials. Even at our home, Pete would spend quality time with the Lord. I sometimes accidentally walked in on his prayer time (both in our home and while he was alone at Church). Pete would have tears streaming down his face as he sought the face of God.Pete truly studied the Word of God with great sincerity and eagerness. In fact, he was the first person to introduce me to the ministry of Leonard Ravenhill. Pete always spoke of the importance of living a holy and consecrated life unto God. His passion for the things of God was evident -- and decidedly pure. A few people at school would make fun of him, and would call him "the walking Bible" and "the prophet." But even these mockers respected him. Shortly before I gave my heart to the Lord, I noticed that Pete was not attending Church as often. After a while, he stopped attending altogether. My parents asked me about him, but I didn't know. I just naturally assumed that he may have been out of town or busy.The summer that I met the Lord, I spent a great deal of time in my house seeking God. I didn't spend time with my friends (or even friends from the Church). I loved to spend time with God -- in prayer and study of the Word. As the new school year began, I hoped that I would be able to associate myself with other believers -- especially Pete. But I hardly saw Pete during school. When I finally saw him, I noticed that he was dressing differently. Before, Pete did not seem to care very much about his appearance. Now it seemed that he was wearing the latest fashions, and he seemed very concerned about such. I also noticed that he was dating a beautiful young girl, who was the lead singer in a local Christian rock band. I really didn't think much of it, and I didn't see him again for quite some time.One day, as I was ministering at the local shopping mall, I saw Pete from a distance. He was standing with a group of people (some of them that were involved in the local Christian rock music scene). As I approached him to say hello, Pete turned and saw me. He was holding a cigarette in his mouth. When he saw me, he looked embarrassed. He pulled me to the side (away from the others). I asked him how he was doing. He informed me that he had not been seeking God for a while, and that in fact, he was miserable. I offered to pray with him, and he politely told me to pray on my own time. He said that he knew that he needed to choose between his new friends (and girlfriend) and the Lord. "Right now," he told me, "I choose them." I didn't see Pete for quite some time after that. About a year later, I saw him at the local "Whataburger" restaurant late one night after Church. Pete was stoned. He told me that he was at the Whataburger to pick up some drugs for a friend. I asked him, "Pete, how can you do this? Don't you think about the Lord?" He told me, "Everyday." He went on to tell me that he was the "most miserable person in the world," and that if God did not do a miracle in his heart, he knew he would die and go to Hell. I offered to pray for him, and he allowed me to pray with him at the restaurant. He left without picking up the drugs. He also asked that I would pray for him -- that his heart would become tender once again for the things of God. Shortly after that meeting, our family relocated to another state. One day, I spoke with Pete's cousins, and they informed me that he died in a drug deal gone bad. As I have read through some of the posts, it appears that many believers (especially in the once saved/always saved camp) do not believe that a person like Pete was ever truly born again. However, I knew Pete very well. He certainly gave his heart unconditionally to the Lord. But it seems that at some point, however, he wanted his heart back. Pete told me that he "fell away" because of a lust and desire for the things of this world (namely, girls and friends). But was Pete ever saved?My question is this: Has anyone else had a similar experience? Have you ever known someone that loved the Lord who turned away because of having loved this world? Is a person like this saved? Were they ever saved?Anyway, this gives us alot to think about! :-(

Bravo and Amen,Quote:It would seem that to refuse to believe OSAS is a sin because it is an indication of unbelief. If we don’t trust in God’s salvation – even to all eternity, then we are living in unbelief. And look at all the problems caused by unbelief. (hypocrisy, dead churches, messed up lives, compromise with the world, etc)Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?Notice it was not their faith but it was their unbelief. Notice that it is the faith of God that has effect.Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:What is upon all them that believe? It is the faith of Jesus Christ, It says unto all and upon all and there is no difference.Again Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.It takes the Faith of Jesus Christ as given to believe and the Holy Spirit to convict of sin that the Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.And more and more faith by the faith of Jesus Christ given to and made righteous by His Faith. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.How can any person be made righteous by his own faith? He can not because faith is a works, but a works of God in Christ Jesus, This is both Grace and Faith, all from God to usward. Righteousness by the Faith of God birthed in us by the Grace of God, Jesus Christ Himself our all in all which includes Once Saved Always Saved is God's choice not man's choice.1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.The only one who can get out of God's Hands is the one who tried to get their on his own and could not. No faith No righteousness can man generate on his own.Isaiah 64:5-8 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. Amen:In Christ: Phillip

We need both. We need the objective revelation in the Scritpures and we need the revelation of the Scritpures to us subjectively.The One is the "Faith once for all delivered to the Saints" and the other is our subjective appreciation of it, entering into the reality of the Truths in Scripture. The Spirit within us brings us into the reality of those objective truths in the Bible.Paul teaches us about this reality.Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Here Paul teaches that even though the Spirit dwells in us, we still have a choice to submit to the leading of the Spirit. Those who do not submit, (unbelief) will remain in bondage to their carnal minds. Those who remain in their carnality, who do not "put to death the deeds of the body" will be as the branch of the vine that withers and is cut off and burned. So the subjective experienced is realized only through our submission to the Spirit that is in us.In ChristJeff

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Well, doesn't that mean God loves sinners? And so, in loving sinners, God even loves them that are in Hell--even Hitler, Stalin, Kantz, Freud, and others who stood so harshly against His Word.Brother Paul,I don't think that can be deduced from these scriptures and the passage quoted in Romans 8:35 'who shall separate us from the love of Christ?" is preceeded by:31-35 what then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? ... Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies, Who is he who condemns? It is christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God , who also intercedes for us.. Who shall separate us from the love of God...The whole point here is "nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. There is no one to condemn us because God has justified us and Christ has redeemed us and also interceeds for us. We are secure. Period.(vs.30) "And those whom He predestinated, these He also called: and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified"Hitler, Stalin, Kantz, Freud were not predestinated, called, and justified. They died in their sins and were never regenerated. They were never justified, and will not be glorified.The whole point of Pauls argument is that for those who are called and justified, there is , "no one to condemn us". How can we be condemned?On what basis could we be condemned? We are called, we are justified, we are being glorified.And this is the basis for He statement in 29: Because those whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the first born among many brothers..And this is the effect of "God causing all things to work together for our good because the Spirit within us prays and interceeds for us according to the will of God.This is our security and destiny. Graftedbranch

Romans 8:16-17 "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God, And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him."To be an heir of God is by birth, That is by being born of God by the Spirit of God to have the Life of God which is Eternal.To be a joint heir with Christ requires us to suffer with Him that we may be glorified with Him.D. M. Panton in - "The Judgement Seat of Christ", Gave a wonderfull illustration. He said that in the early days of astronomy they found Uranus and tracked it but it did not behave as they believed it should. The laws of gravity even began to come into question. But one day there was discovered that beyond Uranus was another planet called Neptune. And the gravity of Neptune explained all the inconsistancies that they had encountered.The difficulty of the OSAS position of the Calvinist and the other side being the traditional "arminian" position is that each side can muster up a cataloge of scriptures which seem to unquestionly support their position and neither side can adequetly explain away the others.It can even be seen here. One will have a page full of scrptures seemlingly showing the conditionallity of salvation. Another pulls up a list and cataloge of scritpures which show us that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost. What Panton saw from scripture was the confusion between the Kingdom of God and Eternal Life. He saw that in Scripture, all those verses which speak to eternal Life are those which without question speak of eternal security of those who believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and are justified and recieve His Eternal Life in regeneration.On the other hand, all those conditional scriptures which reveal our need to persevere, to run the race, to finish our course, etc. are all related to the reward of the Kingdom.The Canvinist did not see the reality of the Kingdom being primarily "amillennialist". Therefore their only explination for the Arminian "proof text" are that these never were saved in the first place.While the Arminians just cleave to their conditional text and ignore those which speak to the security of the believer.But the Scriptures make a clean distinction between the Kingdom of the heavens and our entrance into it as a reward and Eternal Life which is wholly by grace thrugh faith. Regeneration brings the eternal Life of God into us and we are justified and will never perish and we shall enjoy this Eternal Life in the New Jeruselem for all eternity.But the 1000 year Kingdom is a reward for those who "suffer with Him that they might reign with Him. The Kingdom is a reward and can be lost. Not all will enter the Kingdom. Not all believers will reign with Christ for 1000 years and enjoy the reward. But many will suffer outside the dicipline of the Lord.The judgement seat of Christ is ignored by most theologies and the Kingdom is neglected. This is the hidden planet which has kept the church in constant turmoil for centuries because they did not see it as the gravitational pull which accounts for the seeming discrepencies.Graftedbranch

So the subjective experienced is realized only through our submission to the Spirit that is in us.Brother Jeff,I think the point here is that when we repent and believe into the Lord Jesus Christ, we are forgiven, justified, regenerated and Christ enters into us. And in Christ is all the riches of His Person and work.But only as we undergo the on going process of the Spirit's enlightement to these wonderful riches which are revealed in His Word are we able to know them and enter into their reality in experience.Paul prays for the Ephesians that' the eyes of your hearts may be enlightened that you might see what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the Saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.We may be in Christ and Christ may be in us, but if we do not see this Reality and its application, we will not be enjoying the experience of our liberation from sin and self that His indwelling Life and work afford us.This is why Paul in Romans 6 says, 'Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? may it never be! Or do you know know....that as many of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into His death...Our experience is conditional upon, "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be rendered powerless...The Lord Jesus prayed, "Father, sanctify them in the truth, thy Word is Truth.."And 2 Thess. says we were, selected by God unto salvation which is in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."To be sanctified which is an ongoing process, we need the truth. And this truth is embodied in the written Word. And only by the Spirit's enlightenment and application are we sanctified in it.Graftedbranch

About predestination: Doesn't that make God a cruel trickster to have sent His Son to be crucified, yet only choose a handful from the earth? That seems to be absurd, since God came that "all should be saved"--an opportunity for all, not just an elite minority whom He slaps a "Saveable" seal on.Sounds a lot more like a club for the select (hasn't that become the Western Church's problem) than a cure for a dying world.PS: I only find this disconcerting; sorry if it seems more like a dogmatic reproach.

Sounds a lot more like a club for the select (hasn't that become the Western Church's problem) than a cure for a dying world. Wasn’t this part of the downfall of Israel? They trusted in their “special position” – and look how badly they fell! I grew up reformed, and, believe me, I saw the same problem. It is dangerous to view yourself, or your particular group as God’s favored select. It produces pride, complacency, carelessness, insensitivity to others, looking down on others. I think Jesus addressed this problem clearly – several times. Mind you, even when I was Baptist for many years, and later when I was in an Armenian church, I saw the same typical problems. At this point, I have come to believe that it doesn’t matter which position one takes - it all comes out the same in the wash. Israel may have indeed been saved from Egypt, saved from the desert, saved from surrounding tribes, but they didn’t persevere. And they ended up dying in unbelief. So it is for most who say “Lord, Lord… “ They think they persevered - but NOT according to God's criteria. The more I read through these posts, including the very stirring account of the young man who died of an overdose, the more I believe that what’s at the end is what counts. And God is the only one who can see the end now. He could see it before the beginning of time. So, why do we keep on putting people in slots at the beginning of the journey - before it’s time? ………….Ohhhh….. but we need some qualifications for church membership……………… and what criteria should we use for eligible elders or SS teachers? Don’t you think that we place too much trust in the “beginning” of their spiritual journey? Can’t you see the problems we get into when we want to run religion ourselves? And even with God’s leading…... think of Judas, one of the twelve. Jesus would have known his destiny, but the other disciples would have considered him a good follower of Christ. Yet Judas served God’s purposes. I am thankful that we can't find the answers we are looking for. It would cause too much damage. Diane

About predestination: Doesn't that make God a cruel trickster to have sent His Son to be crucified, yet only choose a handful from the earth? That seems to be absurd, since God came that "all should be saved"--an opportunity for all, not just an elite minority whom He slaps a "Saveable" seal on.2 Thessalonians 2:13,14 says, "But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth. To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."1 Thessalonians 14:5 "Knowing brothers your selection by God For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance..."Predestination is a fact of scripture we have to come to terms with. It is not a matter of our theological view but of the plain statements in the Scripture.The only thing in question is upon what basis God predestinates. That is, one what basis does He choose.The fact is, God owes none of us salvation, We are all rebels and sinners and dead in transgressions and sins. We need the Spirit's enlightment to see ourselves in our true condition before God. Without the Spirit's Light and conviction, none of us would even be conciouse of our fallen and dead condition.What a mercy that God sends His Spirit to us to unveil Christ to us and to make us concious of our need of Him. And God sends to us those who are His messengers to preach the gosple to us in the power of the Spirit.And what a mercy that the Spirit opens our eyes, and we see the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ, we appreciate Him and believe into Him calling on His Name and are saved and recieve His eternal LIfe.Graftedbranch

I want to set a preface:Saved. Genuinely saved. That alone is the groundwork for such a discussion. Your heart has changed, your life has changed, your thoughts have changed ... but you stumble ... you fall deep into sin. Are you still saved?Saved.When we begin to look up at the Cross, what do we see?A broken, battered, torn, shamed, rejected, crucified man. God enfleshed in the humility of a fallen creature. 100 percent God, 100 percent Man. The agony to which the Man Jesus went through ... is unimaginable. The shame that His Father felt when He had to turn His face from His One and Only Son ... can we begin to imagine blood bursting from our pours in a dark garden from fear? All of this ...to save you.Can we believe that someone who has been shipwrecked and saved can lose this wonderful gift of salvation? You can forfeit the grace which has already justified you? To think that God will remove this gift from you once He has written your name in the Book of Life is to stand in the middle of Golgotha, look up at the defeated Lord, and believe that His perfect sacrafice was simply ... not enough.God Bless

I noticed that you mentioned the Mennonite Church in Lebec with all the born-again conservative Mennonites. I just moved into the area and have visited the church twice. Before I commit myself, I'd like to know more about the church's reputation etc.My name is Barbara. I moved to Pine Mountain from Los Angeles in October. I have been reading the Anabaptist writings and Anabaptist history. I really like www.anabaptistchurch.orgPlease feel free to email me with your thoughts, as I want to know more about this big step in my life.

Hi tiltedhalo...Can we believe that someone who has been shipwrecked and saved can lose this wonderful gift of salvation? You can forfeit the grace which has already justified you?I think that a more proper question is whether or not a person that has truly been saved and born again could ever walk away from the Lord. Unfortunately, as with my earlier post about a friend of mine -- I think that the answer is certainly "yes." Does anyone else know anyone that has "walked away" or "departed" from the faith?As for the entire question about whether or not someone can "lose" their "salvation" -- I cannot seem to reason away the 10th chapter of Hebrews (particularly verses 26-31), or II John 1:8-11. :-)

i have ministered for 40years {on and off} to the homeless. people who do not know who their parents are, people who don't know their birthdate , no i.d. some very sick in mind, some dying of aids. murderers, homoseexuals, drug adicts, drunks,whores and some unfortunate or confused. Jesus said to go and compel them to come in. we would feed them and try to help with clothes , bring them to church for an evagelical sermon , they almost all come forward and cry outto Jesus to save them and deliver them from their life of sin and sorrow.i know they are tired of waking up in their own urine and vomit. some have changed their lives ,butmost are dead or still waking up the same way.i have become a beleiver in free grace to those who call upon the name of th Lord.i rally believe God saves these peopleETERNALLY and their physical life has nothing to do with it. His mercy endures forever. if your God is not that good or His blood is not that strong then trust in your performance of holiness. holiness stems from the presence of God,not performance{holy ground, HOLY bibleetc. jimp

“..he is able to save COMPLETELY (or forever) those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Heb. 7:25 When we begin to look up at the Cross, what do we see? ….look up at the defeated Lord, and believe that His perfect sacrifice was simply ... not enough. Tiltedhalo, I agree with your concern. To say that Christ can’t hang on to his own is a perversion of his character. However, I believe that deep down many lack faith in God’s ability to completely save them. I think this is the problem with the many who start out eager to follow Christ, but later slip away, either into worldliness or into religious righteousness (ie the ones who look very, very saved) They simply cannot place their full trust in him. They refuse to surrender some hidden idol (not just things, but maybe a grudge, a security “blanket”, works, etc .. )Who of us is able to decide who is completely saved? What criteria do we use? AA can produce a change in heart and life. So can church. So can a lot of things in this world. We simply do not follow the same criteria that Jesus had. That is the real problem! I believe that we can be sincerely deceived. Man looks on the outside but God looks on the heart. Jesus knew the hearts of those who came seeking after him. That is why he “chased away” the rich man who came to him seeking a way to eternal life, and the ones to whom he said, “Foxes have holes, birds have nests…”… Let the dead bury the dead”All these people wanted to keep a foot in the world. And Christ wanted no compromise. I know someone who for a long time was very sincerely, genuinely hungry for God. All the right signs of salvation where present. Then when trials came, she fell away. Really she could not forgive her husband who betrayed her. She came back to me last year, weeping, craving to get back to God. Then she drifted again. She still can’t let go of her bitterness, which, I think is the real reason she keeps on straying. It is pointless for me to try to figure out her eternal destiny. The reality is: she is in a bad way with God, and can’t seem to shake it at this time – and maybe doesn’t want to. But her life journey is not done yet. A lot of people want to get rid of their troubles, but they don’t want what it takes to become a follower of Christ – a crucifixion. Since there are so many verses in Scripture about warnings, I think that they should be our focus. After all, it is all too normal for each of us to be deceived about our own security. Heb. 3: 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.” Because a hardened heart can be masked behind just about any impressive façade, we all are in danger of deception – about ourselves and each other. May God continue to test and refine our faith, no matter what it costs! It’s worth it in the end, wouldn't you say? Diane

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Does anyone hear what Paul is teaching here? Where in the Parable of the sower of the seed then do the sons of God find themselves?In ChristJeff

Does anyone else know anyone that has "walked away" or "departed" from the faith?I know of a preacher that walked away and hasn't came back. He was the assistant pastor of a church and the pastor had a dream about him cheating on his wife and walking out of the church with his family. The pastor told the assitant about it.Not long after the dream, sadly, it came to pass just as the Lord had showed the pastor. I don't know what has happened to the assitant pastor since then.

Does anyone else know anyone that has "walked away" or "departed" from the faith?I believe that any of us can testify that at some time we have been frustrated and discouraged and "walked away" for a time. Who can testify they have perfectly followed the Lord all their days and never "walked away". Thank the Lord that, "My Sheep hear My voice and they follow Me and I give Eternal Life to them and they shall never perish and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand"But rather the Good Shephard leaves the 99 and goes and retrieves the One who has gone astray. Thank the Lord that Peter "walked away" saying "I go fishing" returning to his old life, but the Lord said in resurrection, Go tell my brothers and Peter"Thank the Lord that the deciples on the road to Emaus were "walking away" and the Lord came and walked with them and recovered them.Graftedbranch

How many do you know that are described by this Scripture?Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. In ChristJeff

i was raised with the OSAS mentality, but the verse that has brought me away from that thinking is:Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. There were several others, but this is the main on.Some may say that those who believe in being able to lose your salvation will be filled with boubt and fear. This is NOT true (At least with me). i fully believe that i could purposefully choose to walk away from the Lord. He would chase me, calling me back, but if i continually chose to shove Him away, he would close the door. When He would, i don't know. He is so merciful and loving. But He is also just and holy. He says that no liar, adulterer or andy such thing will enter into the kingdom of heaven. So if you are "sinning" (1 John) and continuing in it, you will not enter in. It doesn't matter what you did 20 years ago, but what you are doing with Christ now! It is possible that i could become as this church did in Revelation. But does that mean i worry about it all the time? No. It urges me to go onward with Christ, and to grow more in Him. If there is such a thing as OSAS, then why did Jesus need to preach to these churches? And we know that:Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. We are kept by faith. But faith brings works. They are the fruit. So if the works are not good, the faith is not, and the soul is not in the book of life. It is very simple, if you take it at face value.i may be speaking out of ignorance, but this is what i believe, and i trust that God will lead me in His way, everlasting. My faith is in Him. Not myself! Hallelujah! :-)May He be glorified! Thank you!

thanks Jeff, we keep coming back to that scripture. For most, their failure simply reveals that their hearts were rocky soil. However, for those who were divinely rooted, failure may be their gateway to brokenness and deeper faith. That is why, I believe that it is dangerous to evaluate people according to what we see on the surface. God has one’s entire lifetime to work on them. I think of King David, King Solomon, Moses, Abraham, Samson, Jacob, to name a few of those who fell. There is a very helpful book called “No Rival Love” in which the writer Dwight Small discusses these lives and explains how God used testings to expose their “rival loves” that is, their unconscious trusts and affections. It was through their failures that their faith grew – until, truly, their only love was God. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation – IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.” Col. 1:23Our journey is not done. We still have many trials to undergo. What would we do if we lost our securities, if we were deeply wounded, unjustly treated, if our property was confiscated, if our spouse walked out on us, if a child strayed, or we are tempted by the things in this world? God already knows what tests we will fail – and he can bring them to us at any time in order to us to humble us. Failure is a part of the refining process. PS: Many people have strayed long ago from their first love Rev. 2:4 but because there appears to be no evidence of it, they are never used as examples in this discussion. I suspect if there is no divine discipline somewhere along the line (likely accompanied by failure), we would have to wonder if they are really his children in the first place. Diane

But are your works ever good enough? Maybe you should have tried a little harder yesterday, were you perfect today? Have you overcome today? Will you tomorrow?You have to compare yourself not to others but to God, how do your works measure up in that light?

But are your works ever good enough? Maybe you should have tried a little harder yesterday, were you perfect today? Have you overcome today? Will you tomorrow?The seal of the Holy Spirit means that He speaks. All the examples given in Scripture of faithful men and women require that God speaks His promises to them. How else would we know the good works that He has for us? Nothing good comes from the carnal mind for it will never please God. Only by the Spirit will one know what he is to do next. Those who will follow will also know a Paul knows. The Spirit will persuade you. He will comfort you.Romans 8: 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Was it Scripture or the Holy Spirit that persuaded Paul? Faith is rooted in God not man. Faith comes from hearing. It is not are my works ever good enough? Rather it is Yes Lord, I will do what you have commanded me to do today. 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Does His Spirit bear witness to you? Are you suffering with Him? In ChristJeff

Once saved always saved is a lie. The scriptures in no way teach OSAS. This is very serious, people will die and go to hell because of this false doctrine. I promise you no one will die and go to hell because they believed that they had better have oil in their lamp or that that they had better seek the Lord and ask him to help them to be holy, because without holiness no man shall see the Lord, or that they must sell all that they have (forsake all worldly affections contrary to the doctrine of Christ) to have the pearl of great price, for the Lord has commanded all of these things, yet thousands upon thousands will choose to live a lukewarm life for Christ and be damned forever because of this false doctrine of Once Save Always Saved.According to the OSAS way of thinking Peter never should have started to sink after the Lord commanded him to come to him walking on the water. You would think that the water should have become as solid as concrete for Peter after Christ issued his command "Come", after all the Lord himself had spoken the word and who can stand against him? But what happened? Peter had professed Jesus to be the Christ beforehand but did that stop him from sinking? No, a living and active faith was necessary on Peter's part to take hold of the Lord's command to walk on the water. When he started to doubt he started to sink. The same goes for salvation from sin, yes the Lord has issued the command to us to come and be saved but there still lies something on our part, just as Peter had to believe God and get out of the boat, we must also have a living and active faith that God will help us to rise above our sins if we expect to walk in the salvation of the Lord. As you probably are already aware, you and I rising above our sin is about as likely as you or I walking on the water without the miracle power of Jesus at work in our lives. Just as the sea challenged Peter's faith, the flesh and the devil will challenge our own faith that the Lord can really deliver what he has promised. Do you not see every evil thing that would be part of your life as a challenge to the veracity of the Gospel? Jesus said that he came that we should know the truth and the truth would make us free. Doesn't any bondage in our lives challenge the very truth of this statement? Doesn't that thing that mocks Jesus' words absolutely need to be overcome by the power of God if there is going to be any kind of continuity to our faith? God bless you all, And may we all lay hold of the promise of being partakers of the divine nature through faith in Jesus Christ.

How can we tell the difference of a 'backslidden christian' living in sin or a 'never reborn christian' living in sin? If you believe in OSAS, the backslidden christian would be saved eventually anyhow or he/she would never be reborn in the first place. Wouldn't you preach/tell about sin and repentance because you don't know in which category he/she falls?If you don't believe in OSAS you see both persons in danger of hell. Either way you will be preaching sin and repentance!How important is this to agree with OSAS or not?As we cannot truly look into hearts of men, don't we need to share the gospel to them and tell them to repent (warn them) and call them to submit their lives to our Lord Jesus Christ?If a person is messing around with God he/she won't tell that he/she already submit to God in the past. He/she will either refuse to see his/her error towards God or repent.What if a christian came to you and asked if he was in danger of hell.He tells you that he fornicates and keeps messing around with women.Can you then say, "brother you are saved because you chose for Christ?"How can someone, if you believe in OSAS or not say not to him: "You are in danger of hell" Neither someone who believes in OSAS or not would not warn him.Perhaps OSAS is a weird question. Wheren't people in the days of the New Testament persecuted often? Or seen as outcasts?You wouldn't dare to just put the label 'christian' on yourself unless you really are one.It does not benefit you at all if you don't see the treasure hidden in the field. Perhaps its more better to ask the question:"Is your life bringing forth fruits that meet for repentance?" Isn't a holy life the result of following and knowing God? How then would a person be different or changed if this was not the case in a 'converted' person?I need to quit now as I keep making my post longer.. :-( (even a christian needs sleep!)Sorry for not quoting any scripture, but I'm working on that regarding OSAS or ISAS or whatever term.

How can we tell the difference of a 'backslidden christian' living in sin or a 'never reborn christian' living in sin?We don't have to tell the difference. We preach Christ crucified. If a person is regenerated, He is born of God and has the Eternal Life of God in his regenerated spirit. He is justified and reconciled to God.What is salvation based in? Our works? Our holiness? our personal rightousness? If this is so then Christ died in vain.What does it mean to be justified? What does it mean to have your sins forgiven and atoned for on the Cross? What does it mean to be in Christ? To be born agian of the Spirit? To be a Child of God with the Life of God?Some it would seem give no attention to these things but rather concentrate on performance, works and our personal rightousness. Where is Christ in all this?Graftedbranch

Hi Graftedbranch...Perhaps the simplest thing to say is: "If you are living in sin, then you are not saved."Hebrews 10:26-3126 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Remember...Revelation chapter 2 and 3 are directed to the Church! :-)

Rookie,So what do you do when the Spirit isn't bearing witness to you on a given day? Or are you a very unique christian that walks in the Spirit 24/7?If you are, I truly would like to meet you and shake your hand.So you listen to the Lord perfectly and do all He commands perfectly?If you honestly believe that, I think you have a very low view of God and a very high view of yourself. Which is in my opinion, an affliction of all arminians.This all still goes back to what the reformation was about, and that is a man is justified by faith in the finished work of Christ and nothing else! I know lots of mormons that are exceeding "good" people, that believe their works do contribute to their standing before God, and they also claim to have the witness of the "spirit". Did you know that?I'm sorry, but if you believe that your good behavior in any way maintains your relationship to Him, then essentially you are no different than a Roman Catholic, no matter what else you may believe.

We don't have to tell the difference. We preach Christ crucified.It's good that we don't have to, because I cannot see how we could ever tell the difference.I'm not responding because I disagree but this helps me to think about it. If a person is regenerated, He is born of God and has the Eternal Life of God in his regenerated spirit. He is justified and reconciled to God.What is salvation based in? Our works? Our holiness? our personal righteousness? If this is so then Christ died in vain.What does it mean to be justified? What does it mean to have your sins forgiven and atoned for on the Cross? What does it mean to be in Christ? To be born again of the Spirit? To be a Child of God with the Life of God?Our salvation is in Jesus. If He tells that you can't be a disciple if you don't pick up your cross and go after Him or that many won't enter in the straight gate and road to life you'd better listen.It is not out of ourselves that we can just follow a set of rules which would justify us and get ourselves in heaven. That indeed would take away the sense for all the suffering the Lord took upon Him, His death and resurrection. Basically we would call God a liar and make his Love perverted.But doesn't Jesus warn for the things that prevent people to get to Him? That would mean that a lot of people are not even regenerated to begin with.that would explain the 'straight is the road..' verse. Won't you start to lead a holy life after being regenerated? Seems foolish to state that you must lead a holy life in order to be saved. Since what makes our life holy? Not the things we do. That would raise the question: “when is your life holy enough?” It never is if that’s the basis of our salvation. But we can say that the result of being regenerated is that a person starts to live a holy life. Just like that ‘works’ is the natural result out of faith so is a holy life out of regeneration, but both not our salvation which only lies in Christ.Some it would seem give no attention to these things but rather concentrate on performance, works and our personal rightousness. Where is Christ in all this?Isn't the Judgement Seat of Christ in heaven?That would mean that only saved people will be there to give account to how well they glorified Christ in their lives. Our works will be tested by fire! It is not that Christ would keep a list of minimum amount of required works to let us enter heaven. We will if we pretty much messed up shrink away in shame more often (and receive a smaller reward and lower position as these works on earth we did through faith are an indication for how much responsibility God can give us in eternity).1Co 3:13-15(13) each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.(14) If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.(15) If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.Other people having denied Christ are to be judged by the White Throne Judgement and have no Saviour as they denied Him.Could the question of OSAS be sufficiently answered to state that people who fall away where never regenerated? It would make more sense to state that the large amount of people who fall away were not regenerated at all instead of having been regenerated and dropped out. 2Co 13:5(5) examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates?Not being 'in the faith' would equal to not having Christ in you, meaning not being regenerated. There is no doubt that a ‘reprobate’ is not saved.Even when you are called a Christian by everyone.Well if you see flaws in my thoughts (theology?) feel free to correct them! Thank you for replying anyhow. :-)

Brother jimbob wrote:So what do you do when the Spirit isn't bearing witness to you on a given day? Or are you a very unique christian that walks in the Spirit 24/7?Be still and know that I am the Lord. We are to feed daily on the Holy Scriptures. Matthew 6:11 \tGive us this day our daily bread.12 \tAnd forgive us our debts,\tAs we forgive our debtors.13 \tAnd do not lead us into temptation,\tBut deliver us from the evil one.This points to the work we should be about. Is not God faithful to those who draw near? Believe me brother there are things that the Lord has placed before me and I have yet not submitted. One is preachin on Bruin Walk more than I do. To me when one preaches Calvin or Arminian one is caught in the bondage of man's doctrine. Paul writes of this to the Corinthian church. 1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1Cor. 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. To me when I hear of this striving of men I know from whense it came, I too was once in bondage to doctrines which stammer and are only able to heal superficially. It is Law of the Spirit of Christ that gives the increase. In ChristJeff

Will anyone testify of the Law of the Spirit of Christ? Will anyone speak about what this law has freed them from? There is a difference between those who hear and those who imagine. In ChristJeff

But we can say that the result of being regenerated is that a person starts to live a holy life. Just like that ‘works’ is the natural result out of faith so is a holy life out of regeneration, but both not our salvation which only lies in Christ.Amen. Regeneration brings the life of God into us and this life is holy. This Life is God Himself. Regeneration resurrects our dead human spirit and brings the Life of God into us making us children of God with His Life and His Nature. And His Nature is holy.The more this Life grows in us, the more this life is expressed in us, in our living, in our demeanor, in our choices, in our thoughts, in our emotions. God is expressed in us and we live Him out.We can't make ourselves holy by determining to do this or that or stop doing this or that, or by acting in a "holy manor". We become holy by feeding on Christ in His Word, by Loving Him, by contacting Him and experiencing Him as our indwelling Life. Any other kind of holiness is a cheap imitation.Graftedbranch

Will anyone testify of the Law of the Spirit of Christ? Will anyone speak about what this law has freed them from? Yes brother, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.Romans 7-8:3 gives us 4 laws. 1. The Law of God2. The Law of good in our mind3. The Law of sin in our flesh4. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.The Law of God corosponds to the law of good in our minds. We see the Law of God and say, yes this is good, I want to live this way.But the Law of sin in our flesh rises up and takes us captive so that we don't do the good we determined to do.But Hallaluah, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.And Hallaluah, that now, as we walk in the spirit and by the Spirit we experience this wonderful overcomming law of Life and the rightouse requirement of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk by the Spirit.Graftedbranch

After some thinking, I have come to believe that there are two very dangerous deceptions: 1. That OSAS is true, and 2. that OSAS is false. It is an evil to hand out eternal assurance policies willy-nilly – to all who fit into our perception of “saved”. That leads a lot of people into delusions about themselves and about God. Really it is like having a ticket straight to hell. It is also an evil to promote a God (god) who loves only conditionally. This leads people to bondage to works, insecurity, neurosis, etc. This keeps all the psychiatrists in business. It leaves victims easily persuaded through guilt. And it keeps countless from every trusting in God’s atonement (which is sufficient!). Thus, it is also leads people to hell. Both these deceptions have been a very powerful way to keep people loyal to church. And isn’t that what those who run churches want: the allegiance of the masses? The Pharisees adhered to both sides: That OSAS is true, and that OSAS is false. These beliefs preserved their sense of identity as God’s Chosen, and it kept the people jumping to their tune. (ie: Laws) I ask, what really is inconsistent: the Word, or man’s word about the Word? Jesus was often asked theological questions. Did you notice that they were closed-ended questions? That is, they required a yes or no answer. Jesus did not check off one of the two boxes. He did not let the questions control him. Instead, he went straight to the heart of the matter – their conscience. And today, he does the same thing. It’s all there in Scripture, all those verses about what it REALLY means to be a follower of Christ, and all the warnings about perseverance to the end. Jesus had a very effective way of saying: Mind your own business. Examine yourself before you try to figure out the others. I think that the following question heads us in that direction: Will anyone testify of the Law of the Spirit of Christ? Will anyone speak about what this law has freed them from? There is a difference between those who hear and those who imagine. Yes, yes, there is a difference. However, our deception (imagination) can get us to believe just about anything about ourselves. We can easily be seduced by the power of suggestion ( and oh, how good pastors can be at that). I can say that, because I’ve been there. It took a major personal upheaval for me to discover the difference, and oh, how thankful that God brought me through the pain of discovering it – a huge shock, indeed. Gaining liberty from the bondage of man’s crazy doctrines and finding freedom in Christ is worth any cost.Diane

Jimbob wrote,Quote;I'm sorry, but if you believe that your good behavior in any way maintains your relationship to Him, then essentially you are no different than a Roman Catholic, no matter what else you may believe.It's not my good behavior, but it The Behavior of Christ in me. Jesus Christ is the only good behavior that is in me, all else if as dirty, filthy rags. I don't take Christ with me every where I go, but He takes me with Him everywhere He leads me. Christ at the Cross was just the beginning of His Work, that to give birth to each one that the Holy Spirit would convict and prompt to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. If we allow Him to become our all, it will be Him in us doing greater works that He has already done, not because of us in any way but because of Him in every way. That is our problem we are looking for ways to be better Christians, when He has already accomplished it by His own Seed that is birthed in us. We must become less every day and He must become more then we will be strong in the Church by the Power of His strength. Give up and let God do the work of His Son in us. Not me but Him. AmenIn Christ: Phillip

My definition of faith is believing God's Word, especially his written Word and in doing that the Word or Jesus. Whoever believes in Jesus shall have everlasting life. {John 3:16}. We are justified by faith as Luther said, but why stop there.It has been said that Luther did not believe that the book of James should be in the bible. It seems to me that Luther's opinion was because the group of verses below.................................................Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.................................................It was only through the witness of certain Christian people's lives that brought evidence to me that this life in Christ is real. It wasn't what they said that brought this witness to me, it was what they did. I was in a jail and was visited and soon after in a hospital and was visited there also. Others showed compassion towards me in the terrible sin condition that I was in. These things softened my heart.Your works won't get you to heaven, but they may make the way for someone else to believe. Works aren't going to make you regenerated, but if you don't have works you aren't regenerated. You are no longer alive in Christ, you are dead.In Christ,GaryE

Phillip,I agree with your above statement 100%. I believe we get into trouble when we look to outward works to judge others. Every time we start to judge others we are heaping judgement on ourselves. This type of judgement is going on constantly on these threads. If all who post on these threads would truly see the gravity of their own sin and their constant need of their Saviour, the finger pointing might stop for a minute.But it won't....

It's kinda easy to judge others on SI, its not always that possible to see someone's heart through posts or someone's reason for posting it.

Brother GB wrote:The Law of God corosponds to the law of good in our minds. We see the Law of God and say, yes this is good, I want to live this way.But the Law of sin in our flesh rises up and takes us captive so that we don't do the good we determined to do.Romans 718 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.Only the law of the Spirit of Christ will enable you to know "how to perform what is good." Paul teaches that the carnal mind is not able to know the ways of God. O wretched man that I am, this is what the Spirit of Christ teaches us. What is Pauls solution to overcoming the carnal mind?Romans 86 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The only way? 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. This is the light of life. Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” The testimony of Jesus is given to those who hear these words:Matthew 11 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. The Spirit gives us the ability to know how to perform what the carnal mind cannot. In Christ Jeff

Brother Gary quoted:Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Our path creates the evidence of what we hope for. It is Christ who says:Is. 30:21 \tYour ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,\t“This is the way, walk in it,”\tWhenever you turn to the right hand\tOr whenever you turn to the left. This is how He frees us from the bondage of our carnal minds.In ChristJeff

Hey Graftedbranch,Any other kind of holiness is a cheap imitation.It's almost funny (actually not at all) how there is cheap imitation for each of Gods perfect things. And sad that most people 'buy this' imitation stuff.Hell is no imitation of Gods presence not being there. :-( Thanks for your reply!

Sister Diane wrote:It is also an evil to promote a God (god) who loves only conditionally. This leads people to bondage to works, insecurity, neurosis, etc. This keeps all the psychiatrists in business. It leaves victims easily persuaded through guilt. And it keeps countless from every trusting in God’s atonement (which is sufficient!). Thus, it is also leads people to hell. Is this a conditional statement?Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom. 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. 2Pet. 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. Rev. 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’Rev. 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’Rev. 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.Rev. 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.Rev. 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.We are given Eternal Life, yet we ourselves are given the choice to obey or disobey. This has been established since the first man Adam. Isaiah 35:8 \tA highway shall be there, and a road,\tAnd it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.\tThe unclean shall not pass over it,\tBut it shall be for others.\tWhoever walks the road, although a fool,\tShall not go astray. OSAS is rooted in the path we choose to walk. Christ is faithful He cannot deny Himself. 2Tim. 2:12 If we endure,\t\tWe shall also reign with Him.\t\tIf we deny Him,\t\tHe also will deny us. In ChristJeff

Hi roadsign...After some thinking, I have come to believe that there are two very dangerous deceptions: 1. That OSAS is true, and 2. that OSAS is false. That is a very interesting post! I've always believed the following:1. You are a believer when you totally place your faith in Christ."For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13).2. Your good works do not save you, and cannot "keep you saved.""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).3. But faith without works is dead."Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17).4. God is long-suffering -- not willing that anyone should perish. When we fall, His Spirit immediately draws us back unto himself -- toward true repentance."And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" (Romans 2:3-4).5. Satan still works to "tempt" believers to walk away from their faith."Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry" (I Corinthians 10:12-14).6. Some believers can and do actually depart from the faith as a result of temptations or trials."For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia" (II Timothy 4:10)."And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred" (Mark 4:13-20).7. A person continually living in perpetual sin is not saved -- no matter what "experience" they had with Christ (or claim to have had with Christ) in the past."For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29).8. Continual sin, without repentance, is equal to a person "departing" (or "walking away" from) the faith."And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:10-13).9. True salvation is not obtained until we overcome -- and are faithful until the end. In other words, you are not ultimately saved until you have breathed your last breath. Currently, we are "saved" because we have left our life headed for destruction. If we return to that life, we are once again headed for destruction. In the end, the only ones who are ultimately saved are those who remained on the "narrow road.""Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:13-20)."Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Revelation 2:10-11)." Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (II John 1:8-9). :-)

Is this a conditional statement?I'm not sure what you mean by this question. So can you help me out. Another thought: A sharp knife is dangerous in the hands of a blind man. So also, the sharp-edged sword of the Word is dangerous in a the hands of a blind man, that is, one who is spiritually blind. They have a tendency to bash people on the head the Bible, and cause damage. There is no good answer apart from the Spirit. The word of God must be revealed by the Spirit. Any other way, and we just can't get it right. Thank you for all the references, Chris. We need them all. I think you bring out some points we should consider: you are not ultimately saved until you have breathed your last breath.I teach piano. A lot of students start out eagerly. They work hard. But somewhere along the way they abandon it. They may be very talented, but they don't want to stick with the costly process of discipline, listening to authority, sacrifice etc etc. On the other hand, some students, seem hopeless at first, and I wish they would quit. But they end up shining. So, who are real musicians in the end? Diane

That is our problem we are looking for ways to be better Christians, when He has already accomplished it by His own Seed that is birthed in us. We must become less every day and He must become more then we will be strong in the Church by the Power of His strength. Give up and let God do the work of His Son in us. Not me but Him. AmenAmen Phillip and AmenGraftedbranch

It has been said that Luther did not believe that the book of James should be in the bible. It seems to me that Luther's opinion was because the group of verses below.I believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law. It was they that compelled Peter to be a hipocrit and cease to eat with the Gentiles. A situation of which Paul rebuked Peter to his face because he was compromising the truth of the Gospel.If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.Graftedbranch

I believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic LawIt seems you are following the line set down by such as J N Darby who created a canon within a canon on the basis of his dispensationalism. This kind of dispensationalism, also taught by E W Bullinger results in a canon in which Paul is the 'greatest' exponent of the true gospel while the other apostles and the church at Jerusalem failed in their mission. By this criteria John and Paul are the ultimate in spiritual truth. Is this your view?And BTW they were not 'sent from James'; they 'came from James'. “For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.” (Gal. 2:12, KJVS) The former indicates that they were commissioned by James; the latter that they were associated with James.

The former indicates that they were commissioned by James; the latter that they were associated with James.I was being more general and not so specific. But the influence of James is without question implied.Paul in Colossians 1:25-27 says: "Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the Word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints, To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory".I am not familiar with Darby's view or position. But it is without question that in Paul's epistles is the highest revelation of Christ and the Church. And in James we find very little of this "high revelation" but rather practical godlyness in a very "old testament" sense which is good but very insufficient. And it is evident in my experience with those who are legalistic and works oriented, that James is the book they always quote. They ignore Galatians, Romans, Ephesians, and everything else and build their whole doctrine and religion on the book of James. You can quote passage after passage from Galatians or Romans but they have one verse, "faith without works is dead" and "a man is justified by faith together with his works."I simply suggest that there was a distinct transition period between the Old Covenent and the New and the complete revelation of the New Testament took time. The book of James is the earliest epistle in the New Testament. It was the first. And the Apostle Paul was the one who in the most accute way "completed the Word of God" which is the revelation of the Mystery which is.... Christ in you, the hope of Glory.James does not mention this. He is not devoid of light or of Christ, He speaks of the Spirit, but his Light was not as rich or as deep or as complete as that of the Apostle Paul, John, or even Peter.The Gospel of John and the Epistls of John were written in the AD 70s. which is late in the New Testament line (James I believe is AD 50). And in John's writings we also find the depth and emphasis on Christ as our indwelliing Life, the felloswhip of the Divine Life and his gospel is the highest in terms of the Revelation of Christ as our Life.Graftedbranch

Hello GraftedbranchI believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law. It was they that compelled Peter to be a hipocrit and cease to eat with the Gentiles. A situation of which Paul rebuked Peter to his face because he was compromising the truth of the Gospel. If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.I just cannot believe that somebody could actually say this, this is garbage. There is a time for everything and now is the time to call this the poison that it is.God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar... Romans 3:4

Dear Graftedbranch,Please don't think that I trying to disbarge Martin Luther. He is one of my favorite people to read about and in many ways was a man that walked very close to the Lord. Here I stand.Luther's idea was wrong about the book of James and so is yours if you try to minimize a book that is inspired by the Holy Spirit so that you can make the rest of the scriptures fit what you want to believe.In Christ,GaryE

Wow 98 Posts and the only one I have read was the last post man are we Christians or Politicians hard to tell :-( By the way has anyone figured out if Once Saved Always Saved. :-)

Wow 98 Posts and the only one I have read was the last post man are we Christians or Politicians hard to tell. By the way has anyone figured out if Once Saved Always SavedWhy not read and find out?I was wondering why no one brought up Wesley and Whitefield - two outstanding Christian revival leaders who had opposite views on this issue. Yet God used them each mightily. Maybe there is somthing more to what view one holds. Diane

I just cannot believe that somebody could actually say this, this is garbage. There is a time for everything and now is the time to call this the poison that it is.Brother, I don't believe that an understanding and appreciation of the scriptures and the revelaiton of the new Testament and the "completion of the word of God through Paul is "poison" but rather Light.Graftedbranch

Way to much to read here Diane, but thanks anyway. ;-)

calvin had no osas doctine. it is ' the eternal security of the believer'. faith is not just believing somethin. when you heard that Jesus died for your sins the first time did you immediately respond or did the Holy Spirit speak ' the word' to your heart , turning your heart of stone into a heart of flesh able to receive this word enough to repnd with a corresponding positive act. you, before the Holy Spirit moves in you, are or were an enemy of God with your rebellious fist in His face. pucture a drunk driving down the street, seeing a trooper, would he turn himself in or try to straighten up and lood real religeous. you have very little to do with your salvation in all three tenses. it is Gods covenant plan He sent Jesus to be both His represntative and ours to cut the covenant. Jesus is our advocate with the father aver the covenant and our judge. if you know the story of david and jonathan and their covenant together, you will clearly see that saul and jonathan died after battle and left jon's son, meph. as the heir to the throne. meph was brought out of ' harms way'from those wh figured that he was next to die and he feared and hated david until david proved the covenant by compelling him to come and be blessed. mercy, grace covenant. it had nothing to do with meph it was all david and honoring his cutting with jon. is there penalty for sin? your sin will find you out, for sure and you will pay for the sins of the flesh in the flesh severely. jimp

Quote; PhilologosIt seems you are following the line set down by such as J N Darby who created a canon within a canon on the basis of his dispensationalism. This kind of dispensationalism, also taught by E W Bullinger results in a canon in which Paul is the 'greatest' exponent of the true gospel while the other apostles and the church at Jerusalem failed in their mission. By this criteria John and Paul are the ultimate in spiritual truth. Is this your view?I never heard of either of Them. Just Scripture Revealed by the Holy Spirit.Not a view but a truth, Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:The Judgement Seat of Christ: According to the Gospel given Paul direct by Christ revelation.The Power to establish you in Christ and make Him unto us Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption. This is all the Wisdom of Christ, The Righteousness of Christ, The Sanctification of Christ and the Redemption of Christ. Paul's power to Preach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.The Revelation of the Mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, never before revealed to man.In Paul's Gospel the Power of the Resurrection is revealed. Jesus Christ the seed of David, the promise, the first Fruits raised from the Dead unto eternal Life by Christ and in Christ.John's Gospel should have been and Epistle, It was not the historical gospel's of Mathew, Mark, and Luke. The Gospel of John was a revelation of Who Christ was and is, not what He did. John also reveales The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit and Who They are and what Their Capacity and Work in the believer is distributed to make us son's of God prepared for the Father's House.You cannot bring Israel into the Church, who the Rock is the Revelation of establishing The Church of Jesus Christ on Peter's answer, Thou art the Son of God in whom the Church will live and move and have its being, the Body of Christ, The Chief Corner Stone. Paul did not preach this Gospel willingly, it was against his will and by this God might show the unceasing power of Christ in a man, Paul's Gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. This Gospel of Paul was the Final Gospel to reveal the Body of Christ only, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Until this dispensation is finished the only thing we have to do with is the Body of Christ the Church and all else will come at its end in the resurrection of this Body of Christ the Church. Then Israel will return to her glory with Christ as King on the throne of David which was promised to Israel and Israel only.Peter agrees because of Paul's teaching,See the difference in Israel the rejecter's and the believers.Israel; Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?The Body of Christ the Church: Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, Acts 28:26-28 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.The Church the Body of Christ, which is referred to as "Gentiles", a specific time, and until it is come in, no Gentile or Jew, will hear this Gospel which Paul received direct from Jesus Christ Himself, that Gospel makes us one in Christ, a new race of creatures, Christ Ones, and no other race, color or creed. The Body of Christ the Church only.In Christ: Phillip

I am not familiar with Darby's view or position. But it is without question that in Paul's epistles is the highest revelation of Christ and the Church. And in James we find very little of this "high revelation" but rather practical godlyness in a very "old testament" sense which is good but very insufficient. This 'highest' concept puts me in mind of our other discussions on this site. You are doing exactly what Luther did in relegating James to a 'lower' level of inspiration. Luther rejected it as canonical because it did not square with his view of things. I fear you are in danger of doing the same.Paul writes...“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Eph. 3:2-6, KJVS) which makes it plain that the 'revelation' was given to ALL those men whose ministry was foundational to the doctrine of the New Testament. The fact that Paul was chosen to record it does not mean that he was the only one who had it, nor does it mean that the revelation that others had was 'lower'. These are different gifts in the one body. And Galatians cannot say of James "I have no need of thee".Peter is also frequently 'downgraded' by those who hold this 'canon within a canon' view of scripture, but this is because they have chosen to see Peter's letters in the light of them being to a Jewish audience. I would strongly disagree with that perspective.This grading of inspiration and ministry seems to be a characteristic of your (the Lord's recovery) position. It is defective, in my judgement, and results in a distortion of truth and an implicit superiority.

I was wondering why no one brought up Wesley and Whitefield - two outstanding Christian revival leaders who had opposite views on this issue. Yet God used them each mightily. Maybe there is somthing more to what view one holds.DianeSeem that nobody being reborn has an excuse to neglect to talk about repentance, sin, judgement, God's holiness and His perfect love! No matter what view you hold. If osas leads you to water down the gospel you would be going wrong I think.If you don't believe in osas and you water down the gospel you would still be wrong. :-) We don't have to promote osas or the opposite I think. If we use Gods Word and tell them the words Jesus said, including all these warnings people can examine theirselves if they are in the faith.Or am I thinking to simple now?

Ron, Please provide a quote from Luther to prove your statement that he "rejected (the book of james) as canonical"

Please provide a quote from Luther to prove your statement that he "rejected (the book of james) as canonical"The following is the translation from Luthers Works, vol. 35. pages 395-398. Preface to James and Jude.I think highly of the epistle of James, and regard it as valuable although it was rejected in early days. It does not expound human doctrines, but lays much emphasis on God's law. Yet to give my own opinion without prejudice to that of anyone else, I do not hold it to be of apostolic authorship, for the following reasons:Firstly, because, in direct opposition to St. Paul and all the rest of the Bible, it ascribes justification to works, and declares that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered up his son. St. Paul, on the contrary, in Romans 4[:3], teaches that Abraham was justified without works, by his faith alone, the proof being in Genesis 15 [:6], which was before he sacrificed his son. Although it would be possible to 'save' the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses's word in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This defect proves that the epistle is not of apostolic provenance.Secondly, because, in the whole length of its teaching, not once does it give Christians any instruction or reminder of the passion, resurrection, or spirit of Christ. It mentions Christ once and again, but teaches nothing about Him; it speaks only of a commonplace faith in God. It is the office of a true apostle to preach the passion and resurrection and work of Christ, and to lay down the true ground for this faith, as Christ himself says in John 15 [:27], You shall be my witnesses. All genuinely sacred books are unanimous here, and all preach Christ emphatically. The true touchstone for testing every book is to discover whether it emphasizes the prominence of Christ or not. All Scripture sets forth Christ, Romans 3::24 f.] and Paul will know nothing but Christ, 1 Corinthians 2 [:2]. What does not teach Christ is not apostolic, not even if taught by Peter or Paul. On the other hand, what does preach Christ is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate or Herod does it.The epistle of James, however, only drives you to the law, and its works. He mixes one thing with another to such an extent that I suspect some good and pious man assembled a few things said by disciples of the apostles, and then put them down in black and white; or perhaps the epistle was written by someone else who made notes of a sermon of his. He calls the law a law of freedom, although St. Paul calls it a law of slavery, wrath, death, and sin. Yet he quotes St. Peter's saying that "Love covers a multitude of sins", and again "Humble yourselves under the hand of God"; further, St. Paul's word in Galatians 5, The spirit lusteth against hate. But St. James was killed by Herod in Jerusalem before St. Peter's death, which shows the writer to have been far later than St. Peter or St. Paul.In sum: he wished to guard against those who depended on faith without going on to works, but he had neither the spirit nor the thought nor the eloquence equal to the task. He does violence to Scripture, and so contradicts Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by emphasizing law what the apostles bring about by attracting men to love. I therefore refuse him a place among the writers of the true canon of my bible; but I would not prevent anyone placing him or raising him where he likes, for the epistle contains many excellent passages. One man does not count as a man even in the eyes of the world; how then shall this single and isolated writer count against Paul and all the rest of the Bibleit is interesting too that Luther thought the writer was claiming to be James the brother of John, rather than James the half brother of Christ.

Here, Here!An Epistle of straw? :-?No, an Epistle of God. 8-)

If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.Came across this last night and... beyond the piercing and greviousness... this is absurd. I am all for scholarly education to a point but sometimes these academic applications are appaling...But thank you very much, I did go back and reread James again last night and this morning.Which "law" was he appealing to? The law of liberty? Make that ..."The perfect law of liberty" or is it the "Royal law";Jam 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. Little to say concerning Jesus? Are you kidding? How much of the Sermon on the Mount is expressed throughout all this? But that is hardly the point, I am just stupefied by these comments..."Lacking"? You are going to sit in judgment and call it a 'good book', but?"This sounds like the same intimation about many other past saints that don't equal up to your particular assemesment..."Christology"... Is this now a academic venture? Had heard this same usage elsewhere re: Witness Lees 'own' and I believe you stated it to be "impeccable". This is just utter nonsense. There is certainly deficiencies, not in James though and I will not stand here and judge you but the words that you state. Try and reread James without the preconceptions or maybe with this in mind:Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The fact that Paul was chosen to record it does not mean that he was the only one who had it, nor does it mean that the revelation that others had was 'lower'. These are different gifts in the one body. And Galatians cannot say of James "I have no need of thee".We cannot deny that the revelation of the New Testament was progressive from the start. Even after Pentecost, the Lord had to give Peter a vision of the sheet with the unclean animals to show that He had included the gentiles.When Peter after preaching to the Gentiles and they also recieved the Spirit, he had to present the events to support the fact that the Gentiles were also included. The diciples even after 3 years training with the Lord Jesus in the flesh and even aftet the Spirit was poured out upon them at pentecost, were still not clear on the Gentiles.When the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul He said to him that he would be His witness to those things in which He had appeared to him and also would appear to him showing that the Lord intended to give him a fuller and deeper revelation of Himself of which Paul was to be a witness.Paul after 3 years finally went up to Jeruslem to present his gospel to Peter and the rest and recieved the right hand of fellowship. They added nothing to his gospel but only said, 'remember the poor". Yes they were in harmony but recognized the grace of God and the revelation Paul had recieved.Peter in his episle also mentions Paul's letters and states that even he reconized them both as scritpure and also that many things in them were "hard to understand". I also suggest that the Lord's soverign hand brought the distruction of the Temple and Jeruselem in 70AD thus finalizing the testimony that the Old covenent had ended and the New Covenent is in place "in His Blood". the "mixture" which was existing at that time was terminated.Graftedbranch

Little to say concerning Jesus? Are you kidding? How much of the Sermon on the Mount is expressed throughout all this?As was pointed out by Martin Luther in the passage quoted, Jesus is mentioned, but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him. These things are absent in James. Yet they are the centerpiece of every other episle in the NT including Peter, John, Jude, and Paul.Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and what is evident in the epistle of James ia a great appreciation for the Law but little of Christ, His Person, and His work.James like proverbs is good practical advice on godly living, but the revelation of Christ as our redeemer, and our indwelling Life is not the heart, focus, or even the implied basis for his epistle.In fact, James is not even addressed to the church and never mentions the body of Christ, It is addressed to "the twelve tribes in the dispersion."And in James 2:1 he speaks of "For if there comes one into your synagog a man with gold...." As stated before, it is the very first epistle written (Ad 50) IN fact I went through every epistle and took note of the dates of writting and it is the first. It is Jewish in its intent and in it's content. We can all agree that "all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine...etc" The only question here and which has existed in Church history is whether or not this book should be counted among the "apostolic scritpures'.Martin Luther said no, based not on it's authorship but primarily based on it's content and the fact that it in many things squars against the rest of the New Testament. And it has been the source of much false teaching concerning works and salvation in both the Catholic church and protestantism.Graftedbranch

As was pointed out by Martin Luther in the passage quoted, Jesus is mentioned, but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him. These things are absent in James. Yet they are the centerpiece of every other episle in the NT including Peter, John, Jude, and Paul.Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and what is evident in the epistle of James ia a great appreciation for the Law but little of Christ, His Person, and His work.Your response here is the kind that we have become used to hearing from bubbaguy our pseudo-Quaker. You are sitting in judgment on the book that judges you. It takes quite a bit to shock me these days but your arrogance in relegating James to some underclass of New Testament writers has succeeded.It does seem to be that your embracing of the tenets of the Lord's Recovery displays or creates a disposition of superior judgment. James was writing to a different context (his reference to synagogues makes that plain) but to judge James' own spiritual condition from the point of view of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" is totally unacceptable. To imply (edited from 'say') that James has 'little appreciation' 'of Christ, His Person and His work' is preposterous.I am resisting the temptation to apply your own criteria to your own posts... just.

but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him.How does Philemon line up?

When the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul He said to him that he would be His witness to those things in which He had appeared to him and also would appear to him showing that the Lord intended to give him a fuller and deeper revelation of Himself of which Paul was to be a witness.I presume you have in mind the passage from the Acts:“But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:16-18, KJVS) Are you now saying that this was to be revelation 'subsequent to and superior to' that already received by the apostles? If so, this is hyper-dispensationalism.

Hello all...Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)? This thread was initially about "Once Saved/Always Saved." I went back to the first thread where a person requested testimonies concerning why people have changed their position on the subject.Perhaps this current debate (about James) could continue in a new thread? Just a thought... :-)

Sister Diane wrote;I'm not sure what you mean by this question. So can you help me out. The Scriptures posted speak of a conditional response. The condition God establishes with men are the choice that He presents to men. All men are doomed because of the fall of Adam. God desires that all men come to repent and that they should not perish. So God makes known to lost man through the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us. This is the condition. Each man has the choice to continue to live according to the carnal mind or to submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is the condition which Paul speaks of in Romans 8: 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. This condition is not taught by the religion of men. God gives freely because God cannot lie. If He desires that all men come to repentance, if He in not willing that any should perish, then He must give freely the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. Yet what does Scripture say?2Tim. 2:12 If we endure,\t\tWe shall also reign with Him.\t\tIf we deny Him,\t\tHe also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless,\t\tHe remains faithful;\t\tHe cannot deny Himself. Where ever one sees the word "if," choose to hear what the Scriptures say. Yes the Word of God is a two-edged sword. And what is its purpose? To show each one of us how the Word becomes, " a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."Those who are willing to recieve the Word of God and all that it reveals will be those who are willing to go onto maturity. "14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. God's word will destroy self-esteem and replace what is destroyed with the fountain of living water. It is this water that heals those who fret over whether they are saved or not. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit will one know Him who died and was resurrected. The joy of the Lord will wash away the enimity of the carnal mind. In ChristJeff

Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)?Do you see how men stumble, are we not like the Corinthian church? 1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1Cor. 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Are we of Luther, or maybe Wesley, or maybe Arminias, or maybe Calvin, or maybe Darby? Few want to go where the Spirit will take them because they still require the milk of the Word. In ChristJeff

Ron,Thanks much for the quote from Luther. I'm glad at least he had the good sense not to enforce his opinion about James on others, i.e. a "lutheran bible".

James was writing to a different context (his reference to synagogues makes that plain) but to judge James' own spiritual condition from the point of view of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" is totally unacceptable. To imply (edited from 'say') that James has 'little appreciation' 'of Christ, His Person and His work' is preposterous.Brother,I can't speak for the condition of James's heart. He regarded himself as a "Slave of Jesus Christ". But it is not arogance to recognize the contents of his writing and his emphasis, and compare it to the rest of the New Testament. That is what commentators do all the time.The problem of reconciling James with say Galatians and Romans has existed in the church for centuries and book after book has been written on the subject. Law vs. Grace is not a new subject. And it generally boils down to Galatians vs. James. And the approach generally taken by evangelical Christians has been, "how can we interprete James in light of the clear presentations of the gospel and salvation by grace through faith alone which is in the rest of the New Testament and particularly the epistles of Paul. I did not originate the difficulty.Neither is the science of determining cannonocity arogance but is the very dicipline which has brought us our cannon. The Church (as a whole)has always differed on its views regarding certian books and this is one of them. The great body of the New Testament is accepted and recognized without controversy. This was Luther's conclusion and I don't believe arrogance is his charecteristic. He was bold and commited to the Lord and the truth. And He was commited to the authority of scripture and "Sola Scriptura" is of his origin.Graftedbranch

Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)? This thread was initially about "Once Saved/Always Saved."Truth is One and you can't get into one aspect whithout touching on others. We can neatly divide things up into this or that theological catagory, but this is in reality a false distinction for the convienience of compartmentalizing truths to better get a hold of them.The issue of OSAS has under its belt all the aspects relating to salvation, the place of works and the necessity of them and from what perspective.It is probably a side issue but in my opinion it is not an unrelated issue.I personally have no vendeta against the book of James. It was brought up by others and my comments are along these lines. It is in my bible (and yes it happens to be a Recovery Version). And yes, I can testify that the more time I have spent in the epistles of Paul and enjoyed the Spirit's light in them the more I have come to see some of the lack in James. And in our experience of Christ we are not all at the same place. If we were there would be no room to grow in grace and in the knowlege of our Lord Jesus Christ. THe book of Hebrews is a book of "moving on from the elementary principles of the Word of God" to a higher revelation of Christ.Paul in 1 corinthians said, "I could not speak to you as mature but as unto babes and you are able to recieve milk only and not solid food". This is the path we are all on and many have insight and revelation that I don't have. And we need the whole body and the Lord's supply through the body to enjoy the fullness of Christ. And we all should recognise that in some there are three talents and others only one. And the three should not dispise the one talant members of the body and the one's should not dispise the three talant members. We all need each other's portion.Martin Luther obviously had more light in the Scriptures than the whole of the Roman Catholic church in his age. That is why we are here today and not at Mass.Graftedbranch

In the New Testament we have in terms of revelation primarily Peter, John, and Paul. There are things in each of them that are not found in the others to the same degree.Johns emphasis is primarily on Christ as the embodiment of God and of the Divine Life and our fellowship in the Divine Life (very high revealtion).Peter reveals to us that we are all Living stones, being built up into a holy priesthood... That is we are God's building. And that we are being made "partakers of the Divine Nature". In His epistles we also have much concerning fellowshipping with Christ in suffereings and persecutions and much practical teaching.In Paul we have the highest revealtion of Christ and the Church. Only in Paul's epistles do we see Christ as the Head of the Body and the Church as the body of Christ. Paul also speaks of the church as God's building and also that we are being built up into a holy Temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit.Surely these are high revelations. Christ as the Mystery of God and the Church as the Mystery of Christ.If you want to see the nature and essence of the Church as the body of Christ you cannot go to James to find this. YOu can find nothing about the church in James. If you want to see the church as God's building, you cannot find it there. If you want to see that we are Partakers of the Divine Nature, you cannot find it in James. These are high revelations. James simply applies the Mosaic Law in a very good and profound way. But in Paul's epistles He always begins with our union with Christ in spirit as the basis for our living a life which experesses God in a practical way. All of his exortations are based in our practical and organic union with Christ. This is a prime charecterist of all of Paul's epistles.If you want the enjoyment and reality of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" you must go to Paul's epistles, You cannot find this in James. If you want to know how to treat your neighbor, yes, it is in James. But it is also in Paul's epistles but it is based in our union with Christ, not the Mosaic Law.James speaks of our faith in Christ and that is good and is indicitive of His faith in Christ and that He is genuine in His being a "slave of Jesus Christ" But a consideration of his epistle shows it to be very Jewish in intent and content and does not reflect the whole Revelation of the New Testament concering Jews and Gentiles and the elimination of the Distinction between the two in Christ. Paul emphasised that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile but One New Man. A High revelation. But in James we see him speak to Jews as Jews (yet believers).The book of Hebrews which I believe is Pauline in origin is also written to Jewish believers. But this book is written to Jewish believers regarding a specifec problem related to their being Jewish. That is that they were tempted to turn back to Judaism because of persecution and Paul writes to show the the seperiority of Christ over Judiaism.It is not written to Jews as Jews but to Jews as believers to shephard them into the Revelation of Christ as the fulfillment of all the Old testament types, shadows and figures.In the matter of Light, God chooses men. And he gives these men as gifts to the church to bring all into the full knowlege of Christ. It is not a matter of boasting or arrogance. It is our arrogance which refuses to see in others light that we may not possess. It is our pride and lack of humility which keeps us from recieving through others what we don't have (Ephesians 4:11,12)It took a great deal of humility on the part of Peter, James and John to recive Paul and to recognize the Grace of God in Him. They could have said, "who is this man. He was not with us, He was not trained by the Lord for 3 years. He was not at the Cross as John was. Why would God choose him to bring in the hightest revealiton of Christ and the Church?" "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ".Graftedbranch

Why is it so hard for the church to rightly divide the Word? Jesus came in the flesh to the flesh son's of Israel. He presented Himself as the Messiah and the Son of God and also calling Himself God also, yet keeping His subordination to the Father's Will. We must see that the Christ that Paul met on the road and blinded him, spoken to from Heaven direct by the Resurrected, Glorified, Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and spoken to and directed, changed, and given the revelation that Christ Himself the Seed of the Father was now in Paul. At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him. 1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; James the 1/2 brother of Jesus Christ was the head of the Jewish, Jerusalem synagogue and was the Head of It. He did not have this revelation of Paul and no wonder he James was unable to see his own 1/2 brother born again in him. He, James preached the only truth he knew, the Law and Works, so no wonder his epistle would disagree with Paul's Gospel, which Paul calls the Mystery, Hidden from all and revealed by Christ to him and him alone. Show me where it was revealed to anyone besides Paul, You cannot.We must rightly divide the Word of Truth, and see what Graftedbranch is speaking of. Peter learned this Gospel from Paul and said, it was, some things hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.Peter understood this Gospel because of the Incorruptable Seed reference in 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.James did not have this revelation. John did, he got it from Paul and the Holy Spirit also.Rightly divide the Word and we will all come to the perfection in Christ. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip

Very well put Phillip.Graftedbranch

We must see that the Christ that Paul met on the road and blinded him, spoken to from Heaven direct by the Resurrected, Glorified, Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and spoken to and directed, changed, and given the revelation that Christ Himself the Seed of the Father was now in Paul. At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him.How about the other disciples of Christ then?They where charged to go out and make all, His disciples and baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That before Paul even repented.What truth did Paul know that nobody else knew?

What truth did Paul know that nobody else knew?Well, read Paul's epistles and cataloge the things revealed in them that are not spoken of by the others in thier epistles. Those are the things He "brought to the table" so to speak. And as good members of the body of Christ the others surely recieved Paul's revelation and entered into them to one degree or another. This is the principle of the Body. Not everyone is an eye, not everyone is a mouth, not everyone is a hand.And remember James was written in AD 50, only 17 years after Christ's was resurrected and ascended. Paul's came in beginning at least 10 years later. And if Jame's revelation is "complete" why did we need the epistles of Paul? why not just send James to everyone?Paul's epistles were circulated among the churches and became incorporated into the cannon of the New Testament. That is why we have them today.Graftedbranch

At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him.Paul received a 'new gospel'!?! Thus is your folly manifest! John got the gospel from Paul!?! This is where hyper-dispensationalism leads us.

I think some saints object to the use of the word High revelation because it imples that other things are "low".You could use the words accuratly "full and complete", but this also implies other things are partially 'empty' or "incomplete".High is a good word because when you come to Divine things, they are high and above us and only by the Grace of God and the revelation of the Spirit can we apprehend these things which "surpass knowlege".It takes the whole revelation of the New Testament and all the epistles and the revealtion given through all His chosen apostles to have the full and complete revelation of Christ and each one has their portion and distinct angle and perspective.And we also need the Light on the scriptures which has been handed down to us through the many gifts to the Church throughout the ages as well as the portions of the saints in the church that the body of Christ might build itself up in love through every joint of the rich supply and the measure of each one part.Graftedbranch

This is still absurd."Measuring themselves by themselves they are not wise" (My paraphrase)Where did the idea come about of piting one book against another to "prove" something? My goodness you could set up a half a million constructs that could be extrapolated to "prove" whatever point you wish.This isn't a Paul vs. Peter, Peter vs. James, rubbish! That the Protestant or the RC church or anybody for that matter misunderstands or is deriving the wrong intentions has no bearing on the validity .... goodness "They twist the scriptures to their own..." that could be said of all the scriptures in that light.The book of James is what, half a dozen pages and you are going to derive a whole theology of assumptions out of it...Here is what is quite amazing over and over again, the main and plain things, the simplilst precepts and principles, just a plain wooden literal meaning is missed by a mile, while the extrapolations go on or off into a thousand other things.And yes, I can testify that the more time I have spent in the epistles of Paul and enjoyed the Spirit's light in them the more I have come to see some of the lack in James.That is just an incredible statement. Wonder what James might think of the same in your words.I don't know GB, controversial for controversy's sake?

Christinyou said:He did not have this revelation of Paul and no wonder he James was unable to see his own 1/2 brother born again in him.Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that James wasn't born again? Who is 'him?' GB Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------How does Philemon line up? I asked this earlier. Should Philemon not be taken seriously? Does it mention all the things "needed" to be a "good new testement" book? I know Philemon is a very short letter but I'm trying to see if there is suppose to be a certain doctrine mentioned in each book of the Bible to make it "new testment."

Paul received a 'new gospel'!?! Thus is your folly manifest! John got the gospel from Paul!?! This is where hyper-dispensationalism leads us.Brother, I agree this is somewhat of an overstatement. Pauls Gospel was the same gospel of Christ crucified and risen and repentance and faith in His Name that the other Apostles preached but Pauls' "full gospel" incorporates many things which are not seen in the others, but God though Paul revealed the full revelation of Christ's Person and work and the nature of the Church as the Mystery of Christ which is not seen in the other writings.Only does Paul say, "in the fullness of Time, God was well pleased to reveal His Son in me that I might preach Him.Graftedbranch

Name that the other Apostles preached but Pauls' "full gospel" incorporates many things which are not seen in the others, but God though Paul revealed the full revelation of Christ's Person and work and the nature of the Church as the Mystery of Christ which is not seen in the other writings.The problem also with this view is that folk latch onto this doctrine to butress their argument that repentance is not necessary for salvation. I have dealt with this extensively with family who attended a certain popular seminary in our area. They take sola feday to its ultimate conclusion and preach a Gospel that does not result in the Born Again experience.

Only does Paul say, "in the fullness of Time, God was well pleased to reveal His Son in me that I might preach Him.You have reversed the order of these statements and missed out half a book, otherwise this is a fairly accurate quotation.“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” (Gal. 4:4-5, KJVS)“But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:” (Gal. 1:15-16, KJVS)The revelation of Christ 'within' Paul is a key NT truth but to imply that no-one had received such a revelation or experience previously is foolish and unbiblical. You may also notice, if you read the verses in the correct order, that Paul's reference to 'the fulness of time' has to do with Christ's incarnation not Paul's regeneration.

The revelation of Christ 'within' Paul is a key NT truth but to imply that no-one had received such a revelation or experience previously is foolish and unbiblical. You may also notice, if you read the verses in the correct order, that Paul's reference to 'the fulness of time' has to do with Christ's incarnation not Paul's regeneration.Brother, I appreciate what you have said. But whether of not anyone else had this revelation, no one else stated it in such a way. Christ in us' is a unique phrase of Paul. I may be mistaken but I do not find this phrase in any other's epistles. It is a unique phrase to Paul. There is no lack of significance in this. Tell me or show me in any other's writings if "Christ in us" is mentioned or expressed. I don't believe it is. IN Peter? in Jude? I would say that in John's epistles this reality is implied and known but not expressed in this way. I would say that this reality is the underlyng reality in all the epistles. That is it is true of every apostle and every believer. But its' clear and concise revealation is unique to Paul.Graftedbranch

Well, read Paul's epistles and cataloge the things revealed in them that are not spoken of by the others in thier epistles. Those are the things He "brought to the table" so to speak.And as good members of the body of Christ the others surely recieved Paul's revelation and entered into them to one degree or another. This is the principle of the Body. Not everyone is an eye, not everyone is a mouth, not everyone is a hand.Paul's epistles are important as it covers (almost) everything from Christian faith in a written form. This doesn't mean Paul was the only one nor the first who had specific insights or revelations from the Holy Spirit, but he was the one who wrote/dictated them.So I don't see how cataloging the things Paul wrote which are not found in other epistles equals being new revealed Truth. If so then it would almost sound like all had to come to one man who would then act as a 'middleman' between them and the Holy Spirit. I don't think this was the case.God bless!Jonathan

Tell me or show me in any other's writings if "Christ in us" is mentioned or expressed. I don't believe it is. IN Peter? in Jude? I would say that in John's epistles this reality is implied and known but not expressed in this way.I would say that this reality is the underlyng reality in all the epistles. That is it is true of every apostle and every believer. But its' clear and concise revealation is unique to Paul.Alto not adressed at me, what about: John 14:16,17 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.John 7:3939 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Now I know John wrote this alot later, but still we hear that Christ thought that God would come and dwell within you!We know that Christ is God too, so it doesn't seem to me that new.

If so then it would almost sound like all had to come to one man who would then act as a 'middleman' between them and the Holy Spirit.Brother, God has chosen to reveal his truth through this apostle and that apostle. We all have to come to the scriptures to recieve the revelation of the Truth of Christ.Are the apostles 'middle men'. No. They are vessels chosen of God to reveal to us the Mysteries hidden from the ages. And the Spirit within us bears witness to the revelation which God through His apostles gave us. They are not a substitute for the Spirit, but instruments of the Spirit to bring us into the same light and same experience of Christ which they enjoyed. Graftedbranch

O thank you Lord for giving me the wisdom just to sit back and read sometimes. :-P

Quote: How does Philemon line up?Just like the rest of Paul's letters. The in Christ position is very plain. Philemon 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.Again Paul by his own hand. Philemon 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.Paul has given Philemon the reason to receive Philemon's own run away slave back as he would receive Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.Philemon owes Paul his own purchased life as a slave of Jesus Christ to Paul because Paul has birthed in Philemon, Paul's own Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory which is the Gospel of God by His Son revealed in Paul, that the world might know this mystery through Paul, revealed directly to him by Christ Jesus Himself.Ephesians 3:5-8 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;Then Paul again says where he received this Gospel. Galatians 1:9-12 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.How can we get around this final Gospel that Jesus Christ revealed direct to Paul chosen from his mother's womb to reveal Christ in Paul and in all who believe and are birthed by the Seed of the Father, Christ in you the hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

How does Philemon line up?Philemon is really a sort of addendum to the epistle to the Colossians. Philemon was an elder in Colossi.In Philemon we have a practical application of Paul's teaching in Colossians. That is, the One New Man.In Philemon we have the practical application of the abolition of all the distinctions of race and social status in Christ which is revealed in in Colossians."In christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave or free man."Philemon is a wonderful and practical application of the high truths revealed in Colossians.Graftedbranch

Quote:John 14:16,17 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.John 7:3939 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Now I know John wrote this alot later, but still we hear that Christ thought that God would come and dwell within you!We know that Christ is God too, so it doesn't seem to me that new.You cannot make the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit, Christ. It was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross it was the all Man and all God Jesus Christ Himself. Why did the Comforter the Holy Spirit have to come? To teach Who this Christ is that is born again in us by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: This is what the word testify means in the Greek; 3140. martureoSearch for G3140 in KJVSLmarturew martureo mar-too-reh'-ofrom 3144; to be a witness, i.e. testify (literally or figuratively):--charge, give (evidence), bear record, have (obtain, of) good (honest) report, be well reported of, testify, give (have) testimony, (be, bear, give, obtain) witness.Jesus has yet many things to say to us and the only one that would teach us what these things are is the Holy Spirit who will reveal Christ in you the Hope of Glory, Paul's Gospel. John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.If The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself who will He speak of? Yes, Yes, Yes, Jesus Christ is who the Holy Spirit will reveal to us. Who is on this earth right now and doing what the Father sent Him to do? It is not Christ because Christ is in you in Spirit, your new life, Satan out and Christ in. John 16:27-28 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. The Holy Spirit is left to teach us who this Christ in us and the Father also is and what relationship we now have, Our Father, and our Lord and First born Brother Jesus Christ.John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. This is the Prayer the Father is answering by the Comforter, Teacher, the Holy Spirit is answering the Prayer of Jesus Christ Himself. Don't try to make the Holy Spirit, Christ, it will only commingle the Truth of the Word and confuse all who Hear. The Holy Spirit is the only One who is on this earth doing the Work of the Father prayed for By Jesus Christ Himself.John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Don't read this then come up with your own answer to it being wrong, but proof it like Bereans and use the Word to make it wrong or right. Be slow to speak but quick to listen. If you don't see the truth then ask the Holy Spirit to proof it and show me wrong. I speak as Paul, the truth that is revealed in me by Him that sent Him. Making Christ in you the Hope of Glory the most Glory that any created being has ever or will ever receive. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

Don't try to make the Holy Spirit, Christ, it will only commingle the Truth of the Word and confuse all who Hear. The Holy Spirit is the only One who is on this earth doing the Work of the Father prayed for By Jesus Christ Himself.Brother, if the Holy Spirit is in us and not Christ, then how is "Christ in us"?IN 2 Corinthians 3 Paul says, "Now the Lord is the Spirit." the lord here in the context is the Lord Jesus Christ.And in 1 cor 15:45 Paul says, "The last Adam (Christ) became (in resurrection) a Life Giving Spirit.The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. IN the New Testament He is called: the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Holiness, the Life Giving Spirit, The Spirit of Life, and in Galatians He is just called, "The Spirit".You cannot separate the Spirit from Christ, He is the Spirit of Christ. He is Christ as the Spirit. He is 'Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.In the same chapter where He said, "I will send another Comforter" He also said, "I will come to you". and "He is with you and shall be in you". Who was with them? Christ in the flesh. Who would be in them? Christ as the Spirit, Christ as the Spirit is the "another comforter who was with them and would be in them." He would leave them for a short while as he went to the cross. But he returned to them in Resurrecion and breathed Himself into them as the Life Giving Spirit.This is not an odd or unusual way for the Lord to speak. He often spoke of Himself in the third person saying, "The Son of Man this or the Son of Man that. This was a very usual mode of His speaking. Whan He said, "He is with you and shall be in you" He was speaking in the third person. He was speaking of Himself. He finally said, "I and the Father will come to you and make our abode with you." He made it quite clear.Graftedbranch

I'm still wondering the answer to the question that PreachParsly asked Christinyou.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Christinyou said:Quote:He did not have this revelation of Paul and no wonder he James was unable to see his own 1/2 brother born again in him.------------------------------------------------- PreachParsley then said:Quote:Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that James wasn't born again? Who is 'him?':::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::In Christ,GaryE

He did not have this revelation of Paul and no wonder he James was unable to see his own 1/2 brother born again in him.I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.Graftedbranch

Graftedbranch, I agree with you in every way except how the Holy Spirit and Christ are manifest to us, yes they are one and yet separate in how they deal with the Born Again Believer and the unsaved.If the Holy Spirit was upon all men of God which were God's chosen people Israel and the Holy Spirit and Christ are the same Person of the Godhead then Jesus Christ was upon them also. I don't see Him named anywhere in the old testament as the Named Savior. If Jesus was the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit was on the Cross also. The Father is also on the Cross if this implementing the Holy Spirit as Christ, also as the Father, then all died and who was left to raise Jesus Christ from the dead. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are only separated by what The Father says, not separated by Who They are, for They are One God, but separated only by what the Father as Father of the Son and dispenser of the Holy Spirit says. That is why Jesus said He had the Power to lay down His life and take it up again. That is why my spirit is now the Spirit of Christ and not the spirit of Satan. That is why my soul is now ruled by the Holy Spirit my Teacher. That is why the Father now abides with the Son and Their abode is with us. In truth All were on the Cross but they all three had different manifestations of what was happening to all. The Son shed His Blood from the Flesh, The Father watched and accepted the Sacrifice and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus Christ from the dead. That is what scripture says. We must keep Them separate for our understanding of God's Plan to save all those that would believe. Then we can understand How our spirit is now One with the Spirit of Christ and How the Holy Spirit is the Teacher of this Truth and How the Father is waiting for His Children to Join Him in His House. That is why if we in our finite minds commingle The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in how the God Head works we are never going to understand the Things the Holy Spirit will show us or How our Life is now the Life of Christ, or How the Father considers us son's of God. That is why the Holy Spirit has been misused in the Church and How Christ is not the center of salvation and new life, and God is just Somebody sitting up in heaven waiting to destroy anyone who makes a mistake, especially to the new believer, in essence this is the same as commingling the Law and Grace, which makes both of them of no avail, Law is perfect and Grace is perfect only if you keep them separate, yet they are from the Same God. Let us rightly divide the Word and see ourselves as body, soul, and spirit and how God works in all three. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. This is how God has chosen while we are on this earth as finite and in Christ with the Holy Spirit as Teacher and God as our Father to reveal Himself as Christ in us the Hope of Glory, and beginning to see the things of the Kingdom we are already in, in Heavenly Places. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.Our God is one God and there is no Other. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

Quote: by my brother Graftedbranch,""I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.""Amen. If James wrote his epistle earlier than Paul's first epistle and Paul was the first one to be revealed of the Christ in him, then James drew upon all that he knew, the Law and his fleshly Brother, as we can plainly see all that James said is plainly and most concurrent to his teaching absolutely Jewish and good for living a good life before man. James written from 45 to 51 and Paul's first writings from 52 to 53.In Christ: Phillip

I would say that this reality is the underlyng reality in all the epistles. That is it is true of every apostle and every believer. But its' clear and concise revealation is unique to Paul.Again, this is only your (LR) slant on things. The fact that only one man records these things is not a proof that he was the only one who had the revelation.“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Eph. 3:2-6, KJVS)Here Paul says plainly that his was not a unique revelation but that it was 'revealed unto his holy apostles (including James!) and prophets'. This revelation is that referred to my Paul as a mystery in Colossians where he states...“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” (Col. 1:24-27, KJVS) So it is plain that the 'Christ in you' is part of the same revelation to which he alludes in Ephesians. However in Ephesians he states clearly that (all) the apostles and prophets received this revelation.The fact that Paul was chosen to declare it in his letters by no means shows that he was the sole source of this revelation. This is nothing more than the sectarianism of Corinthians... I am of Paul. Who is Paul, who is Apollos? “Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?” (1Cor. 3:5, KJVS) It's 'clear and concise revelation' is NOT unique to Paul; the privilege of enshrining in scripture is especially but not uniquely his.

2Co 3:8Verse 8. How shall not the ministration of the Spirit. This is an argument from the lesser of the Holy Spirit upon you, to the greater of the Holy Spirit in you. Several things in it are worthy of notice.(1.) The proper contrast to the "ministration of death," (2Co 3:7,) would have been "ministration of life." But Paul chose rather to call it the "ministration of the Spirit "--as the source of the life life giving Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, the same resurrection Power of of Him who raised Christ from the dead, or as conferring higher dignity on the coming of the Promised Spirit at Pentecost, than to have called it simply the ministration of life.(2.) By the "Spirit" here is manifestly meant the Holy Spirit; and the whole phrase denotes the gospel that Paul refers to or the preaching of the gospel, by which eminently the Holy Spirit is imparted as Teacher.(3.) It is the high honour of the gospel ministry, that it is the means by which the Holy Spirit is imparted to men, as of, "is with you but shall be in you." It is designed to secure the salvation of men by His agency; and-it is through the ministry Christ that the Holy Spirit is imparted, the heart renewed, and the soul saved. The work of Christ's ministry in us is, therefore, the most important and honourable in which man can engage.In Christ: PhillipBe rather glorious?(1.) Because that of Moses tended to death; this to life.(2.) Because that was engraven on stone; this is engraven in the heart, by the Spirit of the Word Himself, Jesus Christ.(3.) Because the stone tablets were the mere giving of a law; this is connected with the renovating influences of the Holy Spirit Teaching the Christ in us, as our New Life, born of the Spirit of Christ and the Father's Seed which gives us our title, son's of God.(4.) Because the Law and the Commandments were soon to pass away. All the magnificence of the scene was soon to vanish. But this new life is to remain. Its influence and effect are to be everlasting, as of Christ, I will never leave you, and the Spirit be in you forever. It is to stretch into eternity; and its main glory is to be witnessed in souls renewed and saved, and amidst the splendours of heaven. The work of the Spirit of God on the heart of a rational being, is much more important than any dead characters which can be engraved on insensible stoney hearts, much more by the Heart of Christ born again in our hearts.In Christ: Phillip

Hello All,I have come to terms with the fact that people sincerely hold many different viewpoints on various subjects. Somewhere along the line we start running into people who will say "Oh these folks believe this way but the other folks believe this other way" and then seem to take up the attitude that the truth probably can't be known on this matter because there are so many on both sides of the argument. Then the search for the truth ends up neglected in favor of diplomacy. I have an open question about OSAS to anyone who wants to answer. What is in fact the truth? How do you explain this part of the word of God?Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree ; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. How can anyone deny what this is saying? Here is something else to think about.Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Luk 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. What is the point of this story to you? Isn't a disciple of Jesus the subject of this story, and doesn't he end up suffering the fate of the unbelievers? How do you deal with the explicit teaching in these verses? I understand there are other verses in the Bible, but how do you deal with these?

Quote:Again, this is only your (LR) slant on things. The fact that only one man records these things is not a proof that he was the only one who had the revelation.And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:Paul was the first but not the last, and this revelation of Christ in you is still being revealed to those who would believe. In Christ: Phillip

And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.This is ludicrous. Paul, in Galatians, takes pains to show that the church at Jerusalem was one with him in his revelation. His frequent references to the revelation are to set him apart from the other apostles but to show he is one of them, having had a personal encounter with Christ. Why are you ignoring the Ephesian (circular) letter where Paul plainly says that the revelation was received by 'the apostles and prophets'?Are you really saying that for the first 13 chapters of Acts (until Paul came 'on stream' in Antioch) the church was without the revelation and experience of 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'? This is as foolish as saying that the 'recovery' began 70 years ago.

Hi Christinyou,Don't try to make the Holy Spirit, Christ, it will only commingle the Truth of the Word and confuse all who Hear. The Holy Spirit is the only One who is on this earth doing the Work of the Father prayed for By Jesus Christ Himself.John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.I am not to think up an answer to that and reply quickly to this, falling in the trap of departing with scripture and stating my own about this. So I'll stop the discussion about that from my part. I do know that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. Saying that the Holy Spirit lives in man would be to state that God lives in you, which is true and the case. However I trust that the Holy Spirit will correct me when I advance through scripture over time to deepen my understanding or to correct wrong things. I won't get quick answers, I am still reading through the whole Bible for the first time. Note that the Spirit of God was also present in the OT. Right now John chapter 1 comes to mind:Joh 1:1-4(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(2) He was in the beginning with God.(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.Also some things will remain to be a mystery, but that doesn't make them less true if they are in Gods Word. Right now we look in a fuzzy mirror. :-P (1Cor 13:12)Don't read this then come up with your own answer to it being wrong, but proof it like Bereans and use the Word to make it wrong or right. Be slow to speak but quick to listen.If you don't see the truth then ask the Holy Spirit to proof it and show me wrong. I speak as Paul, the truth that is revealed in me by Him that sent Him. Making Christ in you the Hope of Glory the most Glory that any created being has ever or will ever receive. Amen.In Christ: PhillipAs you point to scripture and to the Lord thats good advise.God bless and keep looking on the Lord!A seeker of Gods Truth, Jonathan

I have to admit that I got lost in the dust a few posts ago. Nevertheless, I feel God had not wanted me to drop out altogether. This morning I decided to read the book of James for myself– afresh. It came alive like never before. Suddenly new light dawned on me: James is placed where it is, by a divine miracle – because we need it to bring us back into proper focus. The book of James is like a bullet that hits our heart. God knows how prone we are to chase after rabbit trails – and take a single aspect of truth far off the center. (Which we might do after studying Hebrews) So the book of James brings us back into reality in case our minds started to drift too far. To me, the key verse is: “Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. In other words, he continually DISCUSSES the Word, but can’t see HIMSELF in that Word.” A few more thoughts: Note the word: “freedom” But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives FREEDOM, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, doing it, - he will be blessed in what he does.” James 1:25 Our obsession with theological debate can very well be a bondage…a way to avoid dealing with what we see in the “mirror” (ouch!) But it never brings us to the freedom that Christ came to give us. James is the perfect book for all who think that they are right, who believe that they have the line on the truth. It deals with the common temptations of the religious righteous. It deals with those who have become smug in their OSAS assurances. It brings us to the greatest commandment – the “golden rule” – our relationships with others. It also deals with God’s children who lack assurance and forget who they are: He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of all he created.” ..1:18 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life… 1:12The warnings are not for the other guy, they are for us! WHEN tempted…” 1:13 (not IF tempted)Don’t be deceived. 1:16Why not think more about how our words and discussion affect others who read our comments? Do our words merely justify ourselves, (sinful desire) or do they encourage others to hunger for God and his word? May God give us good vision and good memory when we look in the “mirror”. James 4:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.” (and set free). Trust me, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone. I think God is speaking to ME. Diane

I am quite surprised to come back to this and still see the same unbelievable extrapolations being held up. This whole argument regarding James is a straw man and it is this absurd launching point should have been stopped long before it got started.In this case a measuring bar was set to hold up this weightless straw man and the "proof" was "show me" thus and so.""I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.""What kind of an argument is that? Do you find recipes for bean dip in an auto manual? How can one derive a judgment that James or anybody did or did not have a "full revelation" or "did not see clearly" from one letter? Is this the kind of judgment you would suppose upon anyone from one article, from such a small snapshot of specifics being addressed... It is the height of absurdity.To suppose this much by doing this bizarre comparison is just wrong. All these unworthy arguments are settled and shattered in the very first statement;Jam 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. And you few here who want to sit as high-minded opinionators ought to be ashamed of your audacity to presuppose such nonsense of lowering and exalting anyway which you choose based on spurious and round hole, square peg logic. This is just pure rubbish.And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.This is just as illogical and has already been answered.If you don't see the truth then ask the Holy Spirit to proof it and show me wrong. I speak as Paul, the truth that is revealed in me by Him that sent Him. Making Christ in you the Hope of Glory the most Glory that any created being has ever or will ever receive. Amen.In Christ: PhillipAre you sure about that?"Show me wrong""I speak as Paul"?No problem speaking in James stead and managing somehow to climb inside his head and then reveal his supposed lack... What do those statements say about the pride back of it?There is a wrongheadedness about all this. That one part of scripture is articulating one area and another part another is not to set them at odds against each other. A good bit of advise expressed here a long time ago was to look at scripture as if you were to examine a part of it by lifting it up to look closely at it, but be sure you put it back where you found it when you were done with it.This has been brought up before but it really is disheartening to hear from Christians that have enough nerve and shortsightedness to start making all kinds of character pronouncements on the disciples, the saints, men and women of God in the scriptures without even considering both the surroundings and times they lived in, the persecution that hung over them at times, the settings, the context, a whole host of considerations.More so, that just from the plainest reading of the New Testament if we were to set that alone since it bears on all this wonder of wonders coming out here... Before playing arm chair theologians, put yourself in their shoes and walk, and think and muse on all the things the Lord spoke to them, what He was addressing. Heart matters, thought matters, humility and pride. Sin. Repentance. Judging with right judgment. It grows weary and tired and grievous to hear time and again slights on Peter or Thomas or now curiously enough James... This one is contentious or Peter is this and Paul is... One has more 'light' and another less and John is the apostle of love and John the Baptist is "old school". There are neither "super apostles" as Paul put it to be enshrined in glass windows and beyond reach of mere lay persons but human, flesh and blood people that had failings and difficulties and problems, no different than any of us. Ask yourself some different questions, how might have you reacted in similar circumstances?And another to think about, beyond Paul how much of a biography do we have of these particular individuals? And even if that was so, where the penchant to make character assumptions anyway?One more to address that keeps popping up..."Enjoying" the spirit, very interesting, surely as a byproduct, as an undergirding perhaps but the sentiments of Paris Reidhead come up, is this all to make us happy? Is that what this walk is supposed to be about? or is it to Gods glory, not merely as a add on, the "Christianease" thing to say. Think about it, how much of this wrangling is addressed to ones own felt needs? "I get more "light" from...." "I "enjoy" this more so 'x' gets short shrift.One of things that was appealing about coming here in the first place was the painful reality of men of God who expressed the truth of the matter, with all the honesty that requires. We are a comfortable bunch, feeding on pleasant things that make us feel good, one spiritual high after another. One would have to be a fool indeed to go seeking after 'punishment' for it's own sake that is not the drive. But there is a suffering that is worthy IF it is for His sake and I dare to say that many of us know next to nothing about it, yet can go on commentating about things read but not experienced. There are believers being persecuted and killed for the truths that some want to play mental hopscotch with and if anyone, their "enjoyment" would be of a sort that we can hardly imagine. Try putting forth some of this 'educated' nonsense before those believers, if you dare. We need our perceptions drastically altered.

Well said Mike.

"Enjoying" the spirit, very interesting, surely as a byproduct, as an undergirding perhaps but the sentiments of Paris Reidhead come up, is this all to make us happy? Is that what this walk is supposed to be about? or is it to Gods glory, not merely as a add on, the "Christianease" thing to say. Think about it, how much of this wrangling is addressed to ones own felt needs? "I get more "light" from...." "I "enjoy" this more so 'x' gets short shrift.Brother Mike,By 'enjoying the Lord" is simply another way of saying "find joy in' or "rejoice in the Lord". The key element is "joy', Not necessarily happy feelings in our emotions, but the enjoyment of the reality. In His Presence is fullness of Joy.To enjoy the Lord in a particular way is to see something of Christ in the Word, and through prayer and fellowship with the Lord to have that thing become a reality in our experience. Phillipeans tells us 'Rejoice in the Lord always... Let your forebearance be known to all men. Be anxious for nothing but in all things by prayer and petition let your request be made known unto God and the Peace of God which surpasses understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.This is more than a mental exercise. Our prayer and fellowship with the Lord brings in the Lord as Peace and our hearts and minds are guarded.While it may not be full of feelings and extatic exitement, fellowship with the Lord is enjoyable. And it brings with it the capacity to "rejoice always" even in hard circomstances. It brings us into the enjoyment of the Reality of Christ which is God's goal. That we live by Him and express Him in all things and by this expression of His life within us God is glorified in our bodies whether by life or by death.It is our enjoyment of Christ which issues in the Glory of God.I like A.W. Tozer's word in "Why the Holy Spirit is given:"The primary work of the Holy Spirit is to restore the lost soul to intimate fellowship with God through the washing of regeneration. To accomplish this, He first reveals Christ to the penitent heart (1 Cor 12:3) He then goes on to illunine the newborn soul with brighter rays from the face of Christ and leads the willing heart into depths and heights (hights- there is that word again -gb) of divine knowlege and communion. Rememember, we know Christ only as the Spirit enables us and we have only as much of Him as the Holy Spirit imparts."A. W. Tozer - That Incredible Christian - Why the Holy Spirit is Given.Christ is the most "enjoyable" Person. And being led into depths of divine knowlege and communion with Him is joy unspeakable and full of glory. Christ makes Himself enjoyable to us to attract us and to lead us into communion and fellowship with Him (Song of Songs 1:4 "Draw me; we will run after you. The King has brought me into His chambers") But as we go on the Lord has to lead us out of seeking Him merely for our own satisfaction but as our love toward Him grows, to seek Him for His satisfaction.Graftedbranch

""I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.""Brothers' I wasn't aggreeing with brother Phillip's statement but rather I was clarifying what I believed he was trying to say.Graftedbrancn

Who can deny that when we are with other believers, praying, singing hymns, and sharing and there is a sense of the Spirit and the Presence of God in our midst, it is enjoyable. We like being there. We don't want to leave. It is not an emotional feeling generated by repetitive choruses or by some sentimental music designed to play on our feelings, There is a genuine Sense of the Spirit and a conciousness of the Lord as we enjoy the Truths in His Word. There is a flow of Life.I had two brothers stop by this morning and we got into some verses in Philippians, we sang a song of rejoiciong, we shared and prayed. It was very enjoyable and if possible we would have gone on all day but of course we can't. We have to live and work.And who can deny that when we are fellowshipping with the Lord in His Word and we are concious of His speaking to us in a particular passage and in our spirit we have conciousness of His Presence, It is enjoyable. We enjoy the Lord in that verse. Something of Christ is opened up to us and something of Christ is imparted into us through that Word and we know it, we are conciouse of it and it is Reality to us.We are fed, we are strengthened in our inner man by that Word. It is Life to us and we have light in the Word.Who can deny that we may read a passage for many years even. But one day as we are considering it, it is opened up to us in a way that it never was before. The Spirit shows us something of Christ, we have revelation. It is satisfying. It is feeding us. And to eat is enjoyable and inwardly satisfying. "I am the Bread of Life" "He who eats Me shall live because of Me""he who drinks of the Water I shall give him shall by no means thirst again.""out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of Living Water"Graftedbranch

Really want to beg off of this...Of course all these things are true, the difference is in how it was being applied regarding the comparison shopping if I may put it so bluntly.

On the other hand...Diane, thank you. Had noticed the use of the "law" there earlier as well, "Freedom" "Liberty"... PerfectThe warnings are not for the other guy, they are for us! Trust me, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone. I think God is speaking to ME. You bet, for what it's worth, I never go away from here without my own expressions rebounding around this melon, asking the same questions.Well said sister.

These things tend to get off track sometimes and interestingly enough thought Diane had something that actually applied to the whole of OSAS relating thoughts to James...But to come back to the main again a couple of pages back;npautsky I have an open question about OSAS to anyone who wants to answer. What is in fact the truth? How do you explain this part of the word of God?Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. There is a really good message by Keith Daniel on this and the reason might surprise you...I don't think he ever really answers the question and that leads to the next surprise, he never set out to... But I think he drives the point home quite well, perhaps someone can dig it up or I will see if I can track it later.Might try a search here on this (OSAS) as well, there has been a bit of discussion in the past.My take on this?.... "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner"

Brother Noel wrote:How do you deal with the explicit teaching in these verses? I understand there are other verses in the Bible, but how do you deal with these? I have asked the same question many times. Only a few will come to submit to the Scriptures in a way that is described by Luke 815 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.Luke 8:16 “No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. 18 Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”One may start out with the Word of God in their heart, yet Satan, trials, tribulation, and the lust for this life choke it out. Living in the house for a time but now no longer. Keep preaching like James18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. Who will hear the word of truth? It is all there in Scripture, but do we really want to hear the whole counsil of God? The Jews heard the gospel according to Paul yet they chose not to believe. Romans 1016 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:\t“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,\tAnd their words to the ends of the world.”The OT people also heard the same gospel, according to the Holy Scriptures.In ChristJeff

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. I am sure many will not agree with this but I will share the "view of the recovery' if that is ok. This view was expounded in its fullest form by D.M. Panton in the 1800s in his book, 'The Judgement Seat of Christ". I also beieve T. Austin Sparks held this view though I am not certian, I know he was one in most things with Watchman Nee and the recovery up till the late 1950s.This verse is refering to the judgement seat of Christ. And it is in reference to entering the Kingdom as a reward. And those who do not, but yet are believers will suffer the dicipline of the Lord outside. They will be "hurt by the second death" but not consumed by it as the Lord says in Revelation.A corosponding verse is Hebrews 6:7,8 For the earth that drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.But if it brings foth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned."Footnote regarding "near a curse" is as follows, "Once saved, the believers can never be a real curse. However, if they do not go on to grow Christ... they are near the curse of suffering the punishment of God's governmental dealing. Being near a curse is absolutely different from the suffering of eternal perdition, which is the real curse."In all the conditional passages usually quoted by those who believe that genuine believers can perish the application is in reference to the Kingdom and not Eternal Life which is the portion and inheritance of all who are born of God and possess His life. (If Children, then heirs, hiers of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him that we also may be glorified together with Him (Romans 8:17)The 10 Virgins were all believers. They all had oil in their lamps. But only those who had their vessels full of the oil were admitted to the Marriage supper of the lamb. The others were not. The Vessels refers to our soul. Those who are merely regenerated but have not gone on to be renewed and transformed in their soul by daily taking thier cross, denying their soul life and following Him, will not be admitted. Those who merely contain the oil but are not filled and saturated by the Oil will be excluded. Those slothful servants who were not found doing their Master's work but said, "the Master tarries, let is eat and drink...will be disiplined in a severe way. Those who have not forgiven their brothers as they have been forgiven will "not come out of there till they have paid the last farthing". And those who have built upon the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble will be saved but their works will be consumed by the fire, yet they themselves will be saved.But in the end following the Lord's reign in the 1000 year kingdom, those who sufferd God's dicipline will be matured and "perfected in His Life", and all will enjoy the complete salvation of God in the New Jeruselem in the new Earth. All will be the "perfected" bride, the Wife of the Lamb.This comes to us as a stern warning that there are consequences to our living and our pursuit or lack of it of the Lord. If we remain the same and do not grow in the Divine Life but remain in an imature and soulish way, we will not 'reign with Him" because we do not "suffer with Him"I have found that the scriptures bear this up if you take the time and set aside preconcieved ideas and concepts and are willing to look outside of our traditional interpretations which generally either follow those of Calvin or those of Jacob Arminias.The reality is both views cannot be right. Either, one, the other, or neither is right. But both cannot be correct. And we have to believe that there is a true view which does no violence to any of the related scriptures.But I know this is not the common view. I have come to see and hold this view. Others will surely dissagree. But I have found it in all my studies to be the only view which adaquitly reconciles the scriptures which seem conclusivly to support both sides of the "OSAS" issue.Paul on the one hand says concering those who commit such things as fornication, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But on the other hand Paul says of the One in Corrinth who was sleeping with his father's wife, 'I have given him over to Satan for the distruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved in that day. Paul did not regard this brother as lost. IN fact as a result of the dicipline of the church, this brother according to 2 cor. repented and Paul admonished them to recieve him back into fellowship.I will add to here though, I believe this view lied buried until Panton's time because of Protestant"s reaction to the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There on the surface an apparant similarity. But if both are studied in light of scripture, they will be seen to bear no resemblance. Prurgaroty has no support in scripture.Graftedbranch

Brothers, I am beginning to see my name too much around here. When I look at all the threads, I see "graftedbranch". I seem to have something to say about everything. I believe I should hold my peace and let others have an opportunity to explore and comment. I don't feel it is my calling to express my views and try to "straighten" everyone else out according to my views.Debating can be profitable if it is in the Spirit and in a good way recognizing that we all live to our Master and to Him alone we will give an account.It is obvious to me that I have too many words.The grace of the Lord be with you all.Brother Graftedbranch

As I wrote earlier that I had heard that Martin Luther did not think that James should be in the bible, I also heard that he didn’t believe that the book of Revelation should be in there either. Just as mention earlier, there were certain verses that were probably the reason for this in James, these verses below were probably the reason he did not like the book of Revelation.…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?In Christ,GaryE

Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?Uh... no! Great point brother. Never did notice that in that way. Something to think about.

Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?Just imagine for a minute if we could revisit this very same discussion after a few years of enduring severe persecution. Our words would be entirely different. I know that, at this time, I cannot imagine being an overcomer. I could not endure losing all my worldy securities - having lived in the affluent West all my life. I could not endure being misunderstod, mocked and hated for my faith. I need a working of God within me to refine my faith. I trust in God's promise: "He who began a good work will carry it on to completion." If he didn't, I would not get there. Another thought:I once heard it said that much of scripture can only be understood under persecution. I suspect that a lot of our present confusion and endless verbosity regarding this topic would be quickly cleared in the face of persecution. We may even be silenced. Diane

Can You Lose Your Salvation Hbr 6:1-12; Jhn 5:24; Jhn 6:35-40; Jhn 6:44; Jhn 6:46-51; Jhn 6:53-58; Jhn 6:60-65; Jhn 10:27-30; Jhn 12:32; Tts 2:11; 1Jo 2:2; Jon 1:1-3; Jon 2:1-10; How do we recieve salvation. Who's salvation is it? John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.John 6:34-40 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.Specifically :37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.Does this sound like we can loose salvation? It is of the Father. Salvation is kept by Christ. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.If we are given to the Son by the Father and The Father draws us to Him and the Son receives us and won't cast us out. what can we do loose something that is not ours in the first place.This is our Bread even Christ Jesus Himself.John 6:57-58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.There are Christians and there are counterfeit Christians. Have any of us ever turned our backs on Jesus and went our own way? If we are honest the answer is Yes. Are we come back, are we eating the Bread of Life, are we spreading the Word? Remember Jonah and the big fish, These are true Christians owned and purchased by God and when Jonah said no, God said, you are my possession and you will do what I want or else. We know what the or else was, a Prophet for Nineva in a pile of Fish throwup on the beach just outside of Nineva. There are counterfeit Christians like Heb 6 who have tasted of the Goodness of God and seen miracles and profess to be true to Jesus, but are Not, like Judas. Heb 6 says this kind cannot be brought back, it is impossible because they would have to crucify Christ again.Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Judas repented and hanged himself, but it was impossible to renew him again, Jesus said he was the only one He had lost of those the Father had given him and that was to fulfill scripture. This is usually the scripture the Armenians use to prove Christians can loose their salvation.This is the scripture that Calvinists use for OSAS that God would not do this to a saved person.Both are wrong. The word impossible is the same as in Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:If we sin, is it impossible for us to come back? John says No. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Because 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: It is impossible for a Christian to loose his Salvation, It is possible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away. They did not fall away from Salvation which is of the Father, but they fell away because they were religious counterfeits.In Christ: Phillip

Hello crsschk,Are you referring to "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit", or is there another sermon of Keith Daniel that touches on this subject? I know that one is a very good message.I am only asking the question about osas for others sake to hopefully set them to thinking about the truth in this matter. Like Jesus rising from the dead, and the reality of Christ in us, and the purity of the word of God, -Like silver tried seven times in a furnace- this truth of personal responsibility for our eternal judgement is already settled in my heart.

Hello Graftedbranch,I think I understand what you are saying here:In all the conditional passages usually quoted by those who believe that genuine believers can perish the application is in reference to the Kingdom and not Eternal.If I understand correctly you are saying that all of the conditional passages are not talking about Heaven and Hell but about the entrance into the millennial kingdom. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you here. What I would like to do then is look at a few conditional passages and see if they can be made to substantiate that viewpoint.I am sure you agree that this is a conditional passage.Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. I believe there are a few points that should be considered about this passage.The broken off branches represent the Jews.The Jews who rejected Christ incurred God's wrath. In fact Jesus told the Jews of his day that if you believe not that I am he, then you shall die in your sins.What I am getting at is in the first case of the branches being broken off in this passage it is in fact talking about heaven and hell and not the millennial kingdom. The unrepentent Jew of Jesus day went to hell. The new grafted in branches represent Christians.I don't feel that I am trying to stretch or twist anything here by saying that Paul was saying that Christians who will not continue in the goodness of Christ will ultimately face the same severity that the Jews experienced.Rom 11:22b If thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.Earlier in Romans Paul states the same thought another way.Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.And here it is again.Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. I also note in Gal. 6:8 that corruption is contrasted against everlasting life. Thats to say in this verse corruption has no part in everlasting life.I think it is true that the first part of the Romans passage is in fact talking about hell and is proven by the fate of the unrepentent Jew of Jesus day who suffered being broken off. It is also reasonable to believe that the part of the passage concerning Christians being cut off is referring to hell. I would have to say that saying "cut off" and "ye shall die" refers to missing a millennial kingdom but not going to hell sounds incorrect.All for now.

If I understand correctly you are saying that all of the conditional passages are not talking about Heaven and Hell but about the entrance into the millenial kingdom. Scripture doesn’t even come close to saying this. I believe that it is a heresy. However, Scripture does speak of Israel as having had the blessing, the guiding light, the Holy Spirit, the Word….. etc etc . and yet, when trials came into their newly formed nation, they refused to trust God. They were the original branch – called God’s Chosen, but in the end, they did not overcome , and were therefore no longer God’s special branch. They were cut off. Israel is our warning. We too can become assured in our position, for we too have had the word, the blessings, lots of Bibles, Christian writers (like Ravenhill, etc) the freedom to preach the word. All of that that can make us feel like a “Christian nation” , or Christian denomination, or Christians community, but that is not an eternal position. Earthly kingdoms are not eternal kingdoms. We cannot assume that our position within Christian community also gives us an eternal position with God. they fell away because they were religious counterfeits.No one considers themselves counterfeits. Especially us. After all, we are here, right? – discussing the deep truths of Scripture. We might just be trusting that all our theological wisdom is an indication that we are genuine. However, in the face of trials our words may turn to wood, hay, and stubble in the fire. Our knowledge and enlightenment alone will not hold us up. That alone is not what gives us perseverance. This reality should shake us up now – before that final shaking! Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature, and COMPLETE, not lacking anything.” James 1:2Diane

Graftedbranch shared: I believe I should hold my peace and let others have an opportunity to explore and comment. I don't feel it is my calling to express my views and try to "straighten" everyone else out according to my views. It is obvious to me that I have too many words. Don’t go away yet, Graftedbranch! It is not entirely bad to share a lot. I say, if only more professing Christians would take time and process their beliefs and express some thoughts. At the same time, as you say, many Christians who have been saying and thinking a lot need to enter into a time of silent reflection. When we’re busy talking, we can’t be listening too. I sense that the Spirit is giving you a little nudge, and your conscience is being sensitive. Perhaps he is calling you to a time of reflection. Keep in mind that no words from the past need to be wasted. Consider them training ground. Why not go back over the thread, as lengthy as it is, and this time look at it all through different eyes – reflective eyes, listening eyes. We can discover a lot about ourselves from our own words, and the responses of others. Ask the Spirit to reveal new realities to you. Perhaps apply the “mirror” imagery used in James. (Something we are all called to do) My minister said; “ When you write you are very vulnerable” Writing is a risky process, but a way to grow. I can relate. At first I think I am expressing some great words of enlightenment, then later when I look back, I think, “Yikes! I wrote that???” I think God uses my writing to take me down a few notches. Debating can be profitable if it is in the Spirit and in a good way recognizing that we all live to our Master and to Him alone we will give an account. As you see, I somewhat challenge this thought in my previous post. Graftedbranch, I look forward to hearing what God is doing in your life. God bless you, Diane

Can't resist, got to respond.If I understand correctly you are saying that all of the conditional passages are not talking about Heaven and Hell but about the entrance into the millenial kingdom. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you here. What I would like to do then is look at a few conditional passages and see if they can be made to substantiate that viewpoint.First, regarding "heaven and hell' if you pick up your Bible and turn to the end of it, the last two chapers of the Bible which deal with the final state of the beleivers, what do you find? Heaven? NO. You find the New Jeruselem in the New Earth. And the New Jeruselem is the Bride of Christ, the Wife of the Lamb according to John. And the New Jeruselem decends out of heaven from God to the New Earth as it's "eternal resting place". Just prior to these last two chapters in Revelation 20, we have the Mellinial Kingdom. It is the earthly reign of Christ for 1000 years and the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies concering the Messiah and the Throne of David.As to "conditional passages relating to the Kingdom, the parables are called "the parables of the Kingdom". They refer to the Kingdom. However in most of us, when we read this we read into it "heaven". The Parables of the Kingdom are not about "going to heaven" but about the comming Kingdom. It is the "Kingdom of the Heavens" that is the Kingdom who'se origins are the heavens. IT is of the heavens, not in the heavens.The Diciples came to Jesus and said, "grant us to sit on your right hand and on your left when you come in your Kingdom. Which Kingdom are they speaking of? Of which Kingdom do we speak when we pray, "Thy Kingdom Come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?"This prayer is not, God, recieve me into heaven, but "Thy Kingdom come".IN Fact, the gospel Christ preached was the "gospel of the Kingdom"The Kingdom was a central element of the teaching of Christ.This is not "heresy" this is the Bible. The cataloge of scriptures you list all are from Romans's 11 and have nothing to do with those who are regenerated through faith in Christ and Have His Life. They are dealing with Isreal as a people vs the Gentiles. In Fact they are "cut off" as a people because they refused to recive Christ. (He came to Is own and His own did not recieve Him, but as many as recieved Him to them He give the power to become the sons of God...Only those who 'recieve Him, become sons of God. And sons of God can't perish because they have the Life of God. God does not cut off those who "recieve Him" and who become "Son's of God. God cuts off a people who do not recive Him. And who refuse to become Sons of God.And if the Gentiles turn from Christ, they too as a people would be cut off. But just as today there are many believing Jews though the Jews "as a people" have been cut off, so then also the many believieng Gentiles would not be cut off. Graftedbranch

Response to GBI do not wish to debate the issue of a temporal intermediate existence - be it a temporal state of further penance in a spiritual realm, or a temporal state of bliss on our present earth. Eternal life (in some way) is mentioned in every book of the NT except Philemon and 3 John, so I don’t wish to see that overshadowed that by something that is disputable, obscure, and temporal. The two-edged sword of God’s word always divides in the right places: “Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven.” Phil. 3:20“Set your mind on things above, not on earthly things.”Col. 3;3 This seems like good criteria to help us discern if we are truly saved or one of the many who are deceived. 2 Cor. 4:17 …for us an eternal glory that far outweighs… 2 Cor. 5:1 …an eternal house in heaven1 Tim. 6:12 Take hold of the eternal life…Titus 1:2 ….resting on the hope of eternal lifePhil. 3:14 God has called me heavenward…1 Thes. 4:17 We will be with the Lord forever. May God point our focus toward eternal things. (… another outcome of trials, deepening faith, and perseverance)By the way, Graftedbranch, I look forward to your response to my post addressed personally to you. DianePS I once did a word study on Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven and ended with somewhat different outcome than you. It is a fascinating subject.

Eternal life (in some way) is mentioned in every book of the NT except Philemon and 3 John, so I don’t wish to see that overshadowed that by something that is disputable, obscure, and temporal.Eschatology, the kingdom, the sequence of events. The present age vs. the comming age, Eternal Life, The Judgement Seat of Christ, etc. indeed are somewhat complex subjects and to gain an understanding of them requries much prayerful study of Scripture over a long period of time.They are certianly not obscurities. They are recurrant themes in the bible, spoken of frequently by our Lord, preached among men, and taught among the churches as is evident in the epistles and even Paul says, "remember when I was among you I spoke of these things".Even the mysterous book of Revelation was not given to us to make us all debate and remain unelightened, but it is written for us to apprehend, enjoy and recieve Light and truth from it. We just need to be open to the Lord when we come to the bible to gain by His enlightening a workable knowlege of scripture that we might handle accurately the Word of Truth and cut it strait. It is large and broad and encompasses the whole of human History and Gods' economy in dealing with men.Graftedbranch

Brother Phillip wrote: "They did not fall away from Salvation which is of the Father, but they fell away because they were religious counterfeits."A. W. Tozer would label this statement as mental gymnatics. God does not create religious counterfeits through the workings of His Spirit. Man has the choice to obey or not. In ChristJeff

Brother GB wrote:"In all the conditional passages usually quoted by those who believe that genuine believers can perish.."By what means does God use to create a genuine believer?In ChristJeff

Hebrews 6:6-9 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.When the seed is planted by the Owner of the field and good seed is planted in one field and bad seed in another field. How do you know the good field from the bad field? The only way I know is to wait. The good field will bring forth fruit and the bad field will bring forth thorns and weeds. We then can see the fruit and know which is the Good Field, "and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:" "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."" But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." As man looks at the fields and says he can loose his salvation because of his actions and choices. Who is the Farmer? Of Course it is God. That is why we have the parable of the wheat and the tares. When the farm hands ask if they should pull up all the tares and burn them, God the Farmer says, When I harvest I know the wheat and I know the tares, leave them until I come so you won't pull up the good wheat with the tares. Man cannot know the heart of a man whether he is wheat or tares, but God Knows. That is why when Jesus was with Israel, men could reject Him and immediately those that rejected Him as King could be well seen. This is the Kingdom on this earth reference of Mathew, Mark and Luke.The Born again are not of this earth, we are a heavenly people Born Of God and have no choice in our salvation, only because we believed does God Put the Good Incorruptable Seed in Us and we will produce good fruit. We are a field purchased by God, and the Price was beyond value as we see it. The Price was Jesus Christ The only Begotten Son of God. We were bought and paid for and planted with Good Seed, that Seed is the: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. We cannot loose Salvation, we cannot loose something that was never ours in the First Place. Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. This True son of God cannot loose being save by Grace, and by even the Faith of the Son of God. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:How can the Faith of Jesus Christ be Lost?In Christ: Phillip

I insert this here because I believe that these two subjects (Faith/Works and Osas) are intertwined. The whole notion that nothing can be done for or against ones salvation is religious foolishness and helps to form the basis for Osas. This article simulates a discussion between a Methodist minister and an Anglican minister. The Anglican minister doesn't quite buy into all that the reformation has to offer. I believe some of the points here are well made. We might do well to allow some of our pet doctrines to be challenged where they may very well oppose the word of God.Excerpts from article by William Law - Published 1760Methodist. Let me here ask you, in the elegant words of a last most amiable divine, "Must the efficacy of Christ's obedience be enforced by the accession of our works, maimed and worm-eaten things?" Churchman. There may, for aught I know, be elegance enough in these words, but truth and sense is quite wanting. For what have our good works to do with the efficacy of Christ's obedience, either as to the lessening, or increasing of it; or how has his obedience anything more added to it by our good works, than it has anything taken from it by the evil works of those who crucified him? What careful doer of good works, ever said or thought after this manner? "I strive to obey thy will, O God, that thereby Christ's obedience may be made more perfect, than it was in him. I lift up my eyes and heart towards heaven, that Christ's sitting there at thy right hand, may be more powerful than it is in itself." On the other hand, what a wise man of faith would he be, who should abstain from prayer, &c., least he should seem by such worm-eaten petitions, to be adding something to Christ's all-sufficient intercession in heaven. Again, fancy another man of faith alone, saying thus, "I cannot have any care about denying myself, taking up my daily cross and following thee. I cannot do these things, as helping forward my salvation, because that would be no better, than presuming to help thee to be a more full and sufficient savior, than thou art in thyself, and without my works." Can anything be more absurd, or irreligious than this? And yet all of it is manifestly contained in the elegant words of your friend. If we walk as Christ walked, and do the works of Christ, we shall on that account be rewarded with him. This is the same good doctrine, as when the apostle saith, "If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him." Here you see our own sufferings are not only required, but made the ground of our reigning with our suffering savior. But what man, not intoxicated with the elegance of words, would call, or look upon this, as adding our maimed, worm-eaten sufferings, to make the sufferings of Christ, greater and more valuable than they are in themselves? As silly a thought, as to say, that our following of Christ, is helping him to be the Son of God. Our blessed Lord keeps our eye continually upon good works, or things that we ourselves are to do. "Strive," says he, "to enter in at the strait gate; Ask, and ye shall receive; Seek, and ye shall find; Knock, and it shall be opened unto you." He does not say, all is already gained, received, found, and opened, by what he has done and suffered. Now if this striving, asking, knocking, &c., were but maimed, worm-eaten things, surely it had been better to forbid, than to command them. Or if he had said to his disciples, that this striving and seeking were such maimed, worm-eaten things, surely he had said as much against them, and with the same intention of turning them from them, as when he bid them "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees," and compared their goodness to whited sepulchers, full of stench, corruption, and dead men's bones. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Methodist. If you do not like my friend's expression, take the same truth in other words of some most excellent divines. Thus says one, "Nothing is required in order to our participation of Christ and his benefits; there is no clogging qualification, no worth to be possessed, no duty to be performed, in order to our full participation of Christ and all his riches"; for all which he gives this solid reason, because, "It is not a matter of bargain, nor the subject of sale, but a deed of gift, the gift of righteousness; and gifts we all know, are not to be purchased, but received." Churchman. As wild and extravagant words as ever met together, as may thus be fully shown. Christ said to his disciples, "I am the way, the truth, and the life"; and that they might more fully understand the true meaning of that, he said also, "Strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth to life." Now, what Christ here saith of the strait gate and narrow way, is strictly so much said of himself, and how he is the savior of the world; for the way and gate could not lead to life, if they meant anything else but Christ himself. Now Christ and his benefits, considered as the blessed strait gate, and narrow way to life, provided by God, is wholly and solely the free grace and gift of God; here was no bargain, or sale of anything; nothing was done on man's part to obtain it, and that for this very good reason, because Christ was thus given by God before the foundation of the world, and again, before there was a man born of a woman. See then the miserable delusion of your doctors, who, from this scripture-truth, that God has freely, and out of mere mercy to the fallen state of man, provided, and given a blessed narrow way, and strait gate to eternal life, thence conclude, that no pains, or trouble of striving to get into this narrow way, and through this strait gate, need be taken, (N.B.) because, without any pains of our own, he freely gave it to all mankind; though there could be no blessedness in the gift, but because blessed are they, who with all their powers, works, and endeavors of spirit, soul, and body, strive to walk in this narrow way, and pass through this strait gate. Is not all this as gross a delusion, and in as full contrariety to the nature of the thing, as to conclude, that because God has freely prepared and given us a cup of salvation, therefore there is no need that we should drink it; or think that our own drinking it, need not be added to make his free cup of salvation a benefit to us. Now, gross as all this is, it is the strong foundation- absurdity, on which alone, your great divines build all their rhetorical flourishes of a salvation that is wholly the gift of God, without any works of man belonging to it. For they have not a word to say against salvation-works, but that works did not produce God's first free gift of a savior to us; and therefore, works can no more belong to this free gift of a savior, after he is given, than they did before he was given to us; being too systematically blind to see, that as a strait gate and narrow way were only given to us, that we might do that which we could not do before they were given, or as the cup of salvation is only given, that we may drink that, which we could not drink before it was given, so Christ was only and solely given for the sake of salvation- works, which we could not do, till in him and by him we became new creatures, created again unto good works. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~See again what another of your excellent divines saith; "Do not think by any preparatory works, to make yourselves worthy of Christ." What is this but saying, do not believe Christ when he is speaking of worthiness and unworthiness, when he says, "He that taketh not his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. He that loveth father and mother more than me, is not worthy of me." Do not believe St. Paul, when he exhorteth the Thessalonians, "to walk worthy of God, who hath called them to his kingdom and glory." Again, have a care of these words of Christ, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"; for you may easily be thereby led to think, that repentance-works have some kind of worthy preparation in them, to make you fit for the kingdom of God. And now let me tell you, that two or three old heresies joined together, would not more abuse and contradict the gospel, than your three doctrines, (1.) of faith without works. (2.) Of a righteousness of Christ only outwardly imputed to us. (3.) Of absolute election and reprobation. These are the scandal and reproach of the reformation, wherever they are found, and have nothing to support them, but that implicit adherence, and systematic obstinacy, which keeps Romish scholars steady to a Trent-creed. Complete article

Are you referring to "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit", or is there another sermon of Keith Daniel that touches on this subject? I know that one is a very good message.Every Branch in Me that Beareth Not FruitYes! That was the one I was referring to.this truth of personal responsibility for our eternal judgement is already settled in my heart.And that does seem to pretty well settle it, well spoken. I guess it still strikes me as one more awesome truth to consider from a different line of thinking altogether. This tenuous 'assurance' is swallowed up by such sheer wonder that it could still be true that it becomes a secondary issue practically.

Why would God graft in more branches that had the same capacity to be just like Israel. When you take care of an Olive tree, the root stays the same but the One that prunes and cuts off branches that won't produce or has bad fruit grafts in a new branch and it begins to draw the sustenance from the root system if the grafted in branch did not have a different ability and a new life it would do no good to graft the branch in. We grafted in branches have a different nature and that nature is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, and a new capacity with the Holy Spirit in us and not just upon us from the outside, but born again with the Christ Seed and filled and baptized into the Holy Spirit. We have a different ability as grafted in branches, we are Born of God and His Seed remains in us, that part of the Christian that has the Seed of Christ cannot sin, only the Flesh and that has even been quickened to hold the Christ of God and the Holy Spirit that we might be called son's of God. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. There is a difference in the branch that is grafted in, it now has the power of God Himself by the Nature of Christ Himself with His Blood flowing in the Branch to keep us from sin, and The Holy Spirit is our Teacher Comforter to teach us this truth given Him By Christ for us. This is the different covenant of the New Testament, that is why it is no longer I who life but Christ who lives in me, This does not make me better than Israel and we should not have that kind of attitude which Israel ended up with and God broke the bad and unfruitful branches off to graft in the Born Again, Gentile or Jew In Christ there is none but grafted in branches and we are different, but could wind up the same way if we don't trust the Christ in us for everything, that the middle wall of partition has been torn down in Christ. We are a new race of branch, Christ is the answer to all these problems and as Paul says "Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." The new creature is the Grafted in Branches because that Branch not has the Blood of Christ filling all that the new creature is and the Spirit of Christ replacing the spirit of the devil who used to be our father. The final Gospel of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.In Christ: Phillip

In John chapter 15 it is the vine and the branches. With grape vines a person breaks off the old branches that aren't bearing fruit in the spring of the year. The new growth are what bears fruit in the coming year. You also break off any dead stuff because it will carry disease. Even underneath the vine you have to clean away dead stuff or disease can keep the vine from bearing fruit. You take all the old branches and dead things and burn them to kill any leftover diseases so that a disease doesn't affect the whole plant and you loose your crop.In the parable the vine is Christ and the branches that are burned are branches that won't bear fruit. We are the branches and if we don't bear fruit we are like salt that has lost it's savor and are good for nothing. God burns in a fire the branches that don't abide in him. Hopefully yours and my life are more fruitfull than the olive tree that Jesus cursed.In Christ,GaryE

By what means does God use to create a genuine believer?Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Chirst. When we believe into the Lord Jesus Christ, we are regenerated. Our dead human spirit is resurrected and indwelt by Christ in whom is eternal Life. We are translated from the domain of darkness into to the Kingdom of the Son of His Love. Old things pass away, behold all things become New.John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal Life."Galatians 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified? This only I wish to learn from you, Did you recieve the Spirit out of the works of Law or out of the hearing of Faith?vs. 9.10 So then they who are of faith are blessed with believeing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them.1 Peter 3:1-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Unto an inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, kept in the heavens for you, who are being guarded by the Power of God through fatih unto a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time."John 1:12: But as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the authority to become the children of God, to those who believe into His Name, who were born... of God".Romans 10:9,10 "That If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation...(vs 13) For whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved"THe entrance into the Christian Life is through believeing into the Lord Jesus Christ, being regenerated and recieving His eternal Life, being born of God to be children of God with His incorruptable, eternal, imperishable, Life. Graftedbranch

This tenuous 'assurance' is swallowed up by such sheer wonder that it could still be true that it becomes a secondary issue practically.Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and What is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."How anyone can make any progress in the Christian Life without "assurance" is a mystery. Assurance is in our position with God, our being justified by His Blood, and born of God with His LIfe, It is based in the redemption in Christ, the suffeciency of His Blood, and His all conquering overcomming resurrection Life.How can I even believe God for anything if I don't even have the assurance that I am His and how can I have "hope" if I am not even assured of the object of that hope?. How can I overcome the "accuser of the Brethren" if I have no testimony to the Blood of the Lamb?What does it mean to be justified, to be clothed with the robe of Christ as our rightousness? To be found in Him, not having a rightousness of my own, derived from law, but that which comes through faith in Christ. The rightousness which comes from God on the basis of faith?How can I grow in the Divine Life if I am continually doubting that I even have the Divine Life? How can I rejoice always if I am constantly trying to prove to myself and to God that I am saved?How can I sit and wonder at the wonders of His Love and Grace and Mercy and how can I grow in the Divine Romance loving my Bridgroom, if I am constantly under the fear that He may cast me into eternal perdition?Striving, doubt, and fear are the opposite of faith, hope, and love.Romans 1:1-2, 5 - Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God.. And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us..Romans 8:15-17 For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry "Abba Father"; the Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God, And if children, heirs also. heirs of God..."If the Spirit witnessing with our spirit is not "assurance" then what is it? Assurance of what? That we are childern of God and heirs also.It is our natural fallen nature which has partaken of the tree of the knowlege of Good and evil that wants to make salvation based in our works or our own faithfulness. We think repentance is from evil to good, but it is not. It is from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil to Christ as the Tree of Life.Graftedbranch

Graftedbranch said: How can I grow in the Divine Life if I am continually doubting that I even have the Divine Life? How can I rejoice always if I am constantly trying to prove to myself and to God that I am saved?This is a valid point. After all, lacking faith is a sin in itself, and a barrier to growth. The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will say, “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite. We can debate this till Christ returns, but if we don’t have a deep concern for this issue of self-delusion and false trust, we will have wasted a lot of time, and essentially been just as blind as the Pharisees. As I said earlier, that’s why we need to apply the MIRROR analogy mentioned in the book of James. Earlier I made some comments that I thought gave us something to consider. Eternal life (in some way) is mentioned in every book of the NT except Philemon and 3 John …The two-edged sword of God’s word always divides in the right places: “Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven.” Phil. 3:20“Set your mind on things above, not on earthly things.” Col. 3;3 This seems like good criteria to help us discern if we are truly saved or one of the many who are deceived.GB, I feel that you missed the point when you lumped a whole lot of concepts together: Eschatology, the kingdom, the sequence of events. The present age vs. the comming age, Eternal Life, The Judgement Seat of Christ, etc. indeed are somewhat complex subjectsIn my spirit I wonder: Why this response? Is it a way of running from the sharp-edged truth that pierces the heart? One can hide behind theologizing for only so long. It may be helpful, but at some point it becomes like “figleaves” – a way of hiding from the convicting power of the Spirit. Diane

The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will say, “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite.This is a good point Diane. But is the answer to this to be in fear of presenting Christ as our all sufficiency? Can we not preach the gospel of Christ and trust the Spirit to convict those who are not genuinly saved? We can't turn from truth in fear that some may misunderstand it and missapply it.In Romans 5 and 6 Paul lays out clearly justification by faith alone. He does not qualify it but rather says, "what then should we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be...His obvious implication is that many may think this is the result of what He just presented. But his answer to it is not to disqualify it but to go on to show how being baptised into Christ brings us into Union with Christ in His death and resurrection which bears fruit unto God.Justification reconciles us to God but our union with Christ produces the fruits of Christ's death and resurrection in us which issues in a life lived unto God.We get stuck in Romans 5 and it's implications because we don't go on to Romans 6,7, and 8 to see the fruit of Christ's Life within us.If a natural man is proclaimed justified and left in his origional condition, he would indeed conclude that he can just live as he has always lived, But the Reality of Christ within us produces a godly life which is the fruit of justification and union with Christ, not the cause of it. If a person is comfortable in his natural state and has no desire to go on and to "live unto God" it is evidence he is not justified, He has not believed into Christ, he is not regenerated and does not have eternal Life.If we believers as members of the body of Christ would live in the reality of our justification and union with Christ in a genuine and vital way, Those who come in among us who have a false security would soon be convicted because they don't see the fruits of Christ within them as they see in others. The Atmousphere of the Reality of Christ in us would convict many who are falsly assured and give encouragement to those who genuinly have been saved.But to shy away from the truth of the assurance of salvation in fear that some may be self decieved is to rob those who are saved from the enjoyment of the assurance and security which is their inheritance in Christ.If a church is living Christ and there is the reality of the Spirit in them and they are growing in the Divine Life, if you come in among them and are not really saved, you will either get saved or you will probably leave because if the church is not worldly but living Christ, there is nothing to keep them there. Nothing of the world to attract them, nothing to gratify the Flesh. If Christ is all you have to offer, and your only enjoyment, then those who don't care for this will go their way.1 cor 14:25 The Secrets of his heart become manifest; and so falling on his face, he will worship God, declaring that indeed God is among you".The fact that many can remain in a church for years and have false security is really an indictment of the condition of the church. Not that they are preachnig "OSAS' but because people can be in thier midst with no sense of Christ and no reality of the Spirit and feel at home there.But what do churches do? They fill up their "programs" with shows and dramas and dynamic singers and "praise teams" which keep people emotionally stimulated and feeling religious and so they keep comming. They enjoy the show.Graftedbranch

So, does the OSAS doctrine mean that it's not possible to turn your back on God? What about the unforgiveable sin? Paul says that he was guilty, but was forgiven because he didn't really know God. That would mean that the only way for the unforgiveable sin to exist would be to first know God, and then blaspheme the Spirit?

So, does the OSAS doctrine mean that it's not possible to turn your back on God? What about the unforgiveable sin? Paul says that he was guilty, but was forgiven because he didn't really know God. That would mean that the only way for the unforgiveable sin to exist would be to first know God, and then blaspheme the Spirit?Who among us who have known the Lord for a period of time can testify that we have never, 'turned our back on God" Expecially when we are young and the allurements of the world are there and our friends are having what seems a good time?We may even go for a time and determine to try to be like them and to enjoy what they enjoy. Yet as we go, there is within us in our spirit the sense of condemnation. To the degree of the Light we have recieved and enjoyed, to that degree the Spirit within convicts us. He has already gained that ground in us. We know we are wrong, we know we have no business being in this or that place and doing the things we are doing. The Spirit is still operating within us to convict us and to keep us from resting confortably there. We just cannot be at peace in that sort of situation and we keep looking over our shoulder for fear some saint in the church may see us.Yet the sense is not that we are lost. That we need to be "saved" again. But that we are out of fellowship with God and we are being hipocrits. Not the kind which tries to act like a Christian when we are not, but the Kind who is a Christian and is acting like he is not.But in the mercy of God the Lord Jesus leaves the 99 and goes and recovers the one sheep who has gone astray, He does not leave us in that condition. He recoveres us because He has set His love upon us and has predestinated us to be conformed to His image. How does he do this? He stirs up others to pray for us, They plead with God on our behalf in fellowship with Christ as our High Priest. They seek us out. They come to us in His Name and seek to restore us co-operating with Him as the Good Shephard in their spirit. Or perhaps the Lord leads them to avoid us and we are put to shame. If this does not work He may even bring in some devestation in our life or severe dicipline. God causes all things to work together for our good and the Spirit within us interceeds according to the will of God. By the Rod or by the staff, the Lord recovers us.But in returning, on what basis do we return? It is the Spirit within us who convicts us and brings us back so we don't have to be "re-regenerated". We are born of God and have His Life. But we need our fellowship restored, we need to be clensed from all sin by His precious blood to enjoy intimate communion with Him and to go on and grow in Him and to be in fellowship with the body of Christ and to be usable to Him . The Spirit is within us but He is quenched and grieved. We need the application of the clensing blood through confession and calling on the Lord to be restored to communion and fellowship.But of course as we come to Him the accuser of the brethrn will be hot on our tail saying, "see, you are no Christian. No believer would do the things you have done. It is pointless, you have commited the "unpardenable sin". Look in your heart, it is cold. You cannot be saved. You are a hipocrit." This is his tactic. And If we give in we will fall into dispair. But if we exercise our spirit to testify to the wonderful blood of Christ, that we are justified, that we are regenerated, that we are eternally saved, he is silenced and as we testify to the the truth of His Word, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are childern of God. As Westley said, "The Spirit answers to the Blood (not our condition) and tells me I am born of God"Those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.Graftedbranch

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the evil one."Here is another questian.How can a person engage in spiritual warfare on behalf of others if he himself has no assurance? If he is always taken up with his own standing before God, how can he engage God's enemy? And on what basis?What is a spiritual warrior? Is it a person who has so much bible knowlege he can defeat other's arguments? No. That is a mental warrior and can only produce "mental results". A spiritul warrior is a person who'se command of scripture enables him to express those truths in the bible which are incorporated into his being. One in whom the Lord has a yeilded and broken vessel and who's knowlege of the truth is not just in his head but is worked by the Spirit into his person. He is "sanctified in the truth". The Word of God abides in him.He is a person who can engage the enemy. One who can wrestle in his spirit and overcome through Christ.The Lord wants to take us beyond "the elementary principles of repentance and faith and baptism and such to become mature sons and to "grow up in all things into Christ who is the head. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons (not mere children) of God."But if we don't even have that assurace that we are "in Christ" how can we "grow up in all things into Christ?"Being "in Christ' and knowing it and living in light of it and in the power and reality of it is the beginning of our Christian Life. Not the end of it. Our regeneration and union with Christ is the the starting point. All growth flows from this initial establishment of our organic relationship with Christ.Regeneration puts us into Christ and Christ into us. Everything else flows from this. Anything that does not flow from this is not the Christian Life. It is something else. Our need is to have our eyes opened to see, "the riches of the glory of His inheritence in the saints".The Riches, Oh the richesChrist my Saviour has for me.How unsearchable their measure,Yet my full reality.Graftedbranch

Think Diane brought forth the similar line of thought I was attempting to draw attention to in regards to a "tenuous 'assurance'":The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will say, “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite. Key word there; "say" and as it follows..."Did we not....?" Therefore justifying themselves or at least foolishly attempting to do so. Would any of us with a right understanding of who we are even regenerated, have this kind of audacity to present to the Lord 'proofs'?What perhaps I would be emphasizing is that which scripture emphasizes as well. That there is an awful lot about overcoming, enduring, checking oneself and so forth. It seems telling that there is so much attention paid to this in the first place, could it be because instead of presenting the truths, the hard things of this walk, the sacrifice of self, of bearing ones cross, of suffering, of being misunderstood and slighted, for some truly persecuted and put to death for these same truths... That this has become so underrated that a propping up must be done in it's place? "You're O.K. brother, don't trouble yourself with all these things, OSAS you know".It just seems to launch forth on the wrong footing. Those who know that they are saved are not going to be pinning away at it or need to be 'assured' all the time, that's what I meant by a 'tenuous' assurance and how it becomes secondary. You will endure, you will carry on, you will continue in the faith, IF you keep doing those things that are prompting you onward. It just seems that a lot of this is perhaps putting a period at the beginning of the sentence, where God has put a series of commas to pause and consider, not to send one into fits of paranoia.It's not that we believe, but that we go on believing.The biggest problem I see with this whole thing is like a lot of other extrapolations, when did this whole thing become such an issue? Would be curious to see if it was really as prevalent throughout Christian history as it is in our day.

It seems telling that there is so much attention paid to this in the first place, could it be because instead of presenting the truths, the hard things of this walk, the sacrifice of self, of bearing ones cross, of suffering, of being misunderstood and slighted, for some truly persecuted and put to death for these same truths... That this has become so underrated that a propping up must be done in it's place? "You're O.K. brother, don't trouble yourself with all these things, OSAS you know".Amen Mike,I think you hit a key point, Genuine conversions are not being produced because the cross is not preached. If "fire insurance" is all that is being offered there is probably no insurance company behind it backing it up. The Spirit does not bear witness to "fire insurance" but to Christ as the crucified and risen Lord.So we have many churches filled with unregenerated people who's only claim to religion is "I prayed a prayer" and OSAS. But might it not be that OSAS is like an oil light in your car which if it comes on, you think there must be something wrong with the light and don't deal with the lack of oil? Or rather like turning off the light and saying, "see, the car if fine?"It is a good and right thing applied to the wrong persons. The docrine may be right but the persons are wrong. If we try to assure a lost man based on some act he performed, that is not directing him to Christ. Our assurance is not in an act we performed whether a prayer, or "walking an aisle". Our assurance is based in the Word of God, the Person of Christ and the witness of the Spirit in our spirit. And the evidence is the friut of a New Life in the person which was not there before. A Life that loves Christ, is hungry for the Word, conscious of sin, and one that produces a desire to go on and follow the Lord.The gospel is the crucified and resurrected Christ and repentance and faith in His Name, not eternal security (Though the promise of eternal Life is part of the gospel). Security is the result of the former, not the cause of it and to try to make those who are outside of Christ secure is to inoculate them against repentance and faith. In fact giving a scripture of assurance won't actually give assurance unless the Spirit is behind it and applying it and He won't do that if the person in their condition is not entitled to it.Graftedbranch"Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast bound in sin and nature's night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, behold, the dungon flamed with Light. My chains fell off. My heart was free. I rose, went forth, and followed Thee." - Chs Wesley

From experience, when we speak to others about Christ if we are in fellowship with the Lord and abiding in Him and looking to Him in our conversation, we can usually tell if a person has genuinly believed.And if not, and we sense the Lord is convicting them, we can biblically encourage them to call on the Lord and assure them that, "Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.Sometimes but not always we are aware that there is a genuine "breakthrough". You just know it. But the next time we see this person usually confirms in us whether of not anything has taken place in them. You sense Life in them. They are different, and they are hungry for the Word and want to talk more of Christ. This is a good indication. But if not, the Lord knows the heart and knows the condition, but we are not amiss in encouraging them to call on the Lord. And if we sense in our spirit they are saved and need assurance, we can co-operate with the Lord in bringing them to the appropriate scriptures to quell their doubts and fears and the accusations which the enemy always hits us whith when we are genuinly saved. If we are lost he does not do this. He tries to give false assurance. But if we are really saved, He does the opposite to keep us from assurance so that we can't go on in faith and grow. A person who is struggeling with assurance is usually saved. An unbeliever usually does not care or is just self assured and wonders why others are all concerned about it. He doesn't see himself as that great a sinner and thinks he is just fine.As in all things we need to be in our spirit, in vital contact with the Lord and sensitive to His leading in dealing with souls.Our great need is ourselves to be constituted with Christ and abiding in Christ to be able to cooperate with Him in His work with others. IN any event, the Lord's work is always the same, to bring them to Christ, to regenerate them, to bring the into the fellowship of the body of Christ, to feed them and to grow them up in all things into Christ.Graftedbranch

…hypocrites. Not the kind which tries to act like a Christian when we are not, but the Kind who is a Christian and is acting like he is not. You have drawn a dividing line in the very place where scripture says we can’t. As Dan pointed out: Tares look like wheat – that is the problem. I suspect, that since we can't easily distinguish the two, it is not our job to make a distinction (The Bible says we can cause a lot of damage trying to do so) If the way we practice our Christianity - ie: shape our church life, talk about spiritual truths, or share our faith journey depends heavily on a need to make this distinction, then I think something is wrong with our entire system. We will end up being bitterly disilusioned with people whom we trusted to be the ideal models of the faith. Or we will lack mercy towards those who fail, including ourselves. We need to go back to scripture and learn from God how we are to live out our faith and our relationship with others. Diane

I've noticed that there are many OSAS people who think that people who don't believe in OSAS don't have any assurance. For some people this may be true but when I've been around people who say this I am quite puzzled why they think this. I believe a person can fall away yet I don't have a fear that this will happen to me. This may be different than what you have been taught if you are OSAS but it seems to me that most people who believe you can fall away aren't afraid that they will fall away themselves.Graftedbranch, you seem to look at justification leading to sanctification and these being the same thing while I look at them as separate experiences. I think of justification as a baby Christian and Sanctification as an adult. To me one becomes sanctified by believing on the Lords work {his offering for us} and at the same time choosing to walk the walk. God's grace includes the ability to resist sin not just the taking away of past sin. In this I see man's choice and free will in that person living a sanctified life but not separate from God's enabling man to choose and live this separated life. Also, when Jesus said whosoever comes after me must carry his own cross, I see this as a need to choose to do this. In the prayer that Jesus prayed preceding the cross Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me, never the less not my will but yours". To take up a cross is to surrender our will to God. This is a choice that we need to make and it is the choice Jesus made when he said not my will but yours.When I hear scriptures like resist the devil, faith without works is dead, go and sin no more, go sell every thing you have and come and follow me etc. I hear God saying, just do it. The price has been paid to set me free so I am to just do it.Another thing that has been asked me is when does a person become lost. OSAS people tend to think that someone who isn't OSAS thinks that the first time they fall into a sin they think they are lost. Maybe some do think that way but I doubt if very many do. If we are talking in my yard and you walk away I might call you to come back. You might ignore me and I might call you again and again. This may go on for awhile as you get further and further away. There is a point where you can't hear me anymore. The lost have resisted the Lord's pleadings to return to the point where they can no longer hear God pleading any longer. There are people who once believed and are so far from God that if you ask them about Jesus will tell you that there is nothing to the gospel. OSAS thinks they were never saved and were just professors only, I think many of these people were saved and are now lost.Once, I met a man who had been a pastor for years that had backslidden. He had believed OSAS as a pastor. He was living at a mission in a city, was an alcoholic, and had divorced his wife and left his family behind. It was interesting to hear him tell me he no longer believed in OSAS. It is my opinion that this man was not lost but did need to return to the Lord. He knew there was a need for him to let Jesus back in his life by confessing and forsaking his sins.In Christ,GaryE

they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony... have you ever seen a sheep turn into a goat or wheat turn to tares? Do your children cease being your children when they fail? does not the father look for and then run after the prodigal son? did not Jesus come into the world to save it? is the blood of Jesusworthy to depend upon or would you rather trust in your ability to be holy or anything else you might need to be? jimp

Sanctification or in its verb form, sanctify, literally means to set apart for special use or purpose, that is to make holy or sacred (compare Latin sanctus 'holy'). Therefore sanctification refers to the state or process of being set apart, i.e. made holy. Christ in us is the one that makes us Holy and God has made Him in us our sanctification and justification. 1Co 1:30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus - Even the good which you possess is granted by God, for it is by and through him that Christ Jesus comes, and all the blessings of the Gospel dispensation.Who of God is made unto us wisdom - As being the author of that evangelical wisdom which far excels the wisdom of the philosopher and the scribe, and even that legal constitution which is called the wisdom of the Jews, De 4:6.And righteousness - Δικαιοσυνη , Justification, as procuring for us that remission of sins which the law could not give, Ga 2:21; 3:21.And sanctification - As procuring for and working in us, not only an external and relative holiness, as was that of the Jews, but οσιοτητα της αληθειας , true and eternal holiness, Eph 4:24, wrought in us by the Holy Spirit.And redemption - He is the author of redemption, not from the Egyptian bondage, or Babylonish captivity, but from the servitude of Satan, the dominion of sin and death, and from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, or the redemption of the body, Ro 8:21, Ro 8:23. See Whitby.The object of the apostle is to show that man of himself possesses no good, that whatever he has comes from God, and from God only through Christ. For the different acceptations of the word righteousness the reader may consult the note on Ro 1:17 (note), where the subject is considered in every point of view.Justification: Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Ro 3:28Therefore we conclude, etc. - Seeing these things cannot be denied, viz., that all have sinned: that all are guilty, that all are helpless: that none can deliver his own soul, and that God, in his endless mercy, has opened a new and living way to the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:19, Heb 10:20, etc: therefore we, apostles and Christian teachers, conclude, λογιζομεθα , prove by fair, rational consequence, that a man - any man, is justified - has his sins blotted out, and is received into the Divine favor, by faith in Christ's blood, without the deeds of the law, which never could afford, either to Jew or Gentile, a ground for justification, because both have sinned against the law which God has given them, and, consequently, forfeited all right and title to the blessings which the obedient might claim.Christ is our all and in All that we do. He is our good works by His Faith, our repentance is because He tells us by the Holy Spirit what to repent of, He is our forgiveness, He is our righteousness, He is our wisdom, He is our Sanctification, He is our Justification. Christ is our all in all, He is in whom we live and move and have our being. IN Christ: Phillip

Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.Parable of the SowerJesus said, how shall you understand all parables if you don't understand this one. The parable of the sower is about finishing the course in good standing with God. Part of the foundation it is laying for understanding the other parables is in its illustration of the need for a continued obedience to the word, following the Lord is not a one time act. If a Christian is to rightly understand his place and standing in the Kingdom of God he needs to understand what is taught in the parables. There is no lax attitude in any of them. It is all diligence, perseverance, and faithfulness repeated over and over throughout the different stories. The Lord uses the parable of the sower to teach how the word of God can bring fruit of salvation into our lives but also how the word can be treated lightly through allowing things like temptation, trouble, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, lust for other things and the pleasures of this life to stop the work of God in us. The parable of the sower establishes conditions and most of the other parables do the same. Most all of the parables are illustrating the necessity of perseverance or else things that must be forsaken in order to be Jesus' disciple. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, unforgivness must be forsaken. In the parable of the pearl of great price, all that you have must be forsaken. In the parable of the tower and also the king making war, we are warned to count the cost of being a Christian. The parable of the man building his house on either sand or rock, again shows the necessity of obedience in order to expect salvation. The Parable of the absent master speaks of faithfulness to the Lord, if the servant stops being a good servant and chooses to become a poor servant then destruction becomes his part.The Parable of the wise and foolish virgins is yet more of the same warning to continue on. The virgins would have been in good standing according to this parable if they had been prepared. To be prepared in this parable just meant to have continued to live in a way that would please the Lord if he should have come back at any time.The Parable of the talents again warns about being careless about our spiritual state. The servant was suppose to have been occupying himself with multiplying his masters money. You have to ask yourself what was he doing with all of his free time since he was no longer busy about his masters business? He was living for himself and not for his master. This is a good picture of a Christian walking in the flesh, knowing his duty to Christ to give the word of God free reign in his life but choosing to follow after other things.These teachings are the backbone of the Gospel, they were left to Jesus to teach who has preeminence in all things. The intent of these parables is to demonstrate what it takes to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. A disciple is not a superior version of a Christian, a disciple is just a Christian. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. A Gospel that does not fully embrace each one of these teachings is not the Gospel of Christ. These are the lessons that we all must learn if we are to be genuine disciples of Christ. Jesus is saying that to fail to live according to what is taught in any of these lessons is to be no disciple of his and to bring destruction upon yourself.Unfortunately the new doctrine of Justification by faith alone without any works makes all of these teachings a non-issue. Yes we say, if we want to really please God then we should do these things out of love for him but it is not absolutely necessary because my faith has got me covered. Hear what Jesus says, he doesn't teach that at all.The warnings are clear, to fail to obey the teaching of these lessons stops discipleship.The Sower: no fruit. -destruction Matt. 13:3-23Pearl of great price : no pearl or no Christ. -destruction Matt. 13:45,46Unforgiving servant: no forgiveness. -destruction Matt. 18:23-25No garment at the wedding feast: no place at the table -destruction. Matt. 22:2-14The unfaithul servant. -destruction Luke 12:35-40Will we let the word produce a holy fear of God in us, or will we refuse to see the Lord as he really is and create a God in our own image, a God who could never deliver to destruction those who have come to believe on him, though he has warned us time after time that he in fact will send to outer darkness all those who heard the call but didn't count the cost and persevere. Who is he talking to in these parables? He is talking to those who would genuinely follow him. He is as much as saying, it is good that you want to follow me, but if you want to follow me this is how it works. Adherence to his teachings is required for good standing with the Lord and not faith alone. In every word Jesus is teaching here he is implicitly crying out against Once Saved Always Saved. Warning after warning of destruction to the foolish disciple. But it is not just in the parables, it is in the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Warning the wicked to walk righteously, and example after example of destruction to those who failed to do so, whether they were Gods people or no. Gods son Jesus warns us time after time of the path that must be walked in order to be saved. Flee from the false doctrines that would deny the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does God love you? Yes he does, that is why he sent his Son Jesus to die for you and to tell you the words of truth. Now will you hear them?Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. -Jesus Christ

Graftedbranch, you seem to look at justification leading to sanctification and these being the same thing while I look at them as separate experiences. I think of justification as a baby Christian and Sanctification as an adult. To me one becomes sanctified by believing on the Lords work {his offering for us} and at the same time choosing to walk the walk. God's grace includes the ability to resist sin not just the taking away of past sin. In this I see man's choice and free will in that person living a sanctified life but not separate from God's enabling man to choose and live this separated life.2 Thess 2:13 But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.1 Peter 1:2 "Chosen according to the foreknowlege of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied"The verse in 2 Thess 2:13 tells us salvation is unto sanctifiecation of the Spirit and beleif of the truth, and 1 Peter 1:2 tells us we were chosen in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood...Sanctification is the process we are saved into. It is not some future thing or second work of grace but the process begun even before we are regenerated (2 Peter). The Spirit sanctifies us unto the obedience of faith and the sprinkling of the Blood.The convicting Spirit sanctifies us unto repentance and faith, applies the redeeming Blood, and regenerates us.Sanctification encompasses the whole work of the Spirit from conviction of sin and the revelation of Christ to separating us from the world, sin and self unto God and conforming us to the image of Christ transforming us in all aspects of our being. And eventually at our Lord's comming our bodies also will be sanctified by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8).Sanctification is a life long process begun at conversion and regeneration and ending with the redemption of our bodies. We need a much wider concept of sanctification.Graftedbranch

Unfortunately the new doctrine of Justification by faith alone without any works makes all of these teachings a non-issue. Yes we say, if we want to really please God then we should do these things out of love for him but it is not absolutely necessary because my faith has got me covered. Hear what Jesus says, he doesn't teach that at all.Brother,If people have this attitude it is because of a total lack in most circles of preaching and teaching concerning the Judgement seat of Christ and the Reward of the Kingdom.All the passages you quoted are refering to the Kingdom, not eternal Life, They refer to the Reward of the Kingdom, reigning with Christ, and the judgement seat of Christ.I ask you concerning Matt 13:35, If you go back 2 verses it says: Another parable He spoke to them, The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened"The parables you quoted are all "the parables of the Kingdom. i. e. The Kingdom of the heavens is like unto, etc. If they are about "going to heaven when you die", how is it like leven which a woman took and hid? He said, "the Kingdom of the heavens is like a mustard seed sown into the ground." If He is talking about a place where you go when you die, how can the Kingdom be like a mustard seed sown into the ground? The Kingdom is the subject, sown is the verb. The Kingdom is like the mustard seed. That is His point.These are abount the Kingdom of the heavens which was being sown then as the Spirit into His church and in the comming age would be manifested as the comming Kingdom at Christ's return. Not "getting into heaven when you die".Eternal Life is a matter of birth. If you are born of God you have the eternal Life of God, you are a child of God. And if a child, an heir also, heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ if so be that we suffer with him that we also might be glorified together with Him,If any Christians are complacent not to go on, to follow the Lord fully, to deny their soul life and take up their cross daily, It is because there is a total lack both of unfolding the glorious Person of Christ who is our indwelling Life, and the glorious hope and promise of the Kingdom. And also a total lack of expounding the terrible loss and dicipline of the Lord.The Judgement seat of Christ is one of the most neglected revealtions of the New Testament in our day. The issue which is almost universally presented is heaven or hell. Going to heaven when you die or going to hell. And this ignores almost every aspect revealed in scritpures concerning resurrection, the judgement seat of Christ, the Mellinium, and the Future Glory of the New Jeruselem in the New Earth.It is not about heaven and hell (though heaven is real and the Lake of fire is real), It is about being reconciled to God, to be sons of God, to grow up as mature sons and to be His expression on the earth with the hope of the reward of the Kingdom in the next age and the promise of Eternal Life as the New Jeruselem.The Gospel is not about a destination but a Person. And we are called to share in the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.This is the revelation of the Bible, but it is absent from most believers consideration.Unfortunately the new doctrine of Justification by faith alone without any worksHow new is this doctrine? You mean since the Reformation? Or since Romans 5 and the book of Galatians and the whole New Testament were written?Graftedbranch

Dear Graftedbranch,I meet and talk with many people from different churches and theologies all the time. For three years twice a day I attended an interdenominational chapel that has services twice a day. During services there is almost always incorporated into the service a testimony time. Most people who are currently walking a sanctified life did not live that way from day one. They grew in the Lord over time. Often their salvation experience was years before they were able to believe for various deliverances. Their separation from the world almost always began years after their initial conversion and usually on a specific time in their life that they often tell about. If justification and sanctification were the same thing, as you imply, these people would not have testimonies that declare differently.In Christ,GaryE

Let's just look at the parables for a little bit.The book of Mathew is written to the Jews to present Christ as the fulfillment of all the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ as the Messiah. For this reason in Mathew is recorded all the parables of the Kingdom which refers to the comming age and Christ as the Seed of David who will inherit the throne of David.The Kingdom of God is more inclusive and includes God's reign even through Isreal in the OT. But the Kingdom of the Heavens referes to the Kingdom which was "now at hand" being sown and the age to come when it is manifested on the earth. (Matt: 13:39 ... And the harvest is the consumation of the age...)In Matt 13:11 The Lord says to His diciples:Because to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been given...He is speaking of the "mysteries of the Kingdom of the heavens." It is the Kingdom He is refering to.He says of the seed sown among thorns and rocky places and such, When anyone hears the word of the Kingdom... the evil one comes and snatches it away. So this Seed here is the "Word of the Kingdom but not the Kingdom itself. It is the Word of the Kingdom.IN 24 He says the Kingdom has become like a man sowing good seed in the field. So here the Kingdom is like a man sowning seed and the Kingdom is the man, and again the seed is the Word of the Kingdom.IN 31 however He says, "The Kingdom... is like a mustard seed sown into the Ground... Here it is the Kingdom itself which is like a mustard seed, not the Word of the Kingdom but the Kingdom itself. The Lord did not just get sloppy with his words.NOw, If the Kingdom itself is "Going to heaven when you die" or even Heaven itself, How can it be sown into the ground and grow up into a large tree?He is not talking here about "the Word of the Kingdom" but the Kingdom itself.This Kingdom is not heaven. Heaven is already there. IN the heavens. Christ is in heaven in Glory. But the Kingdom today is like a seed sown into the ground and it grows up. Heaven is not growing up.The Kingdom of the heavens is not heaven but the Kingdom which is of the heavens which is growing now in the hearts of those in whom the Word has been sown through the Spirit. And in the comming age it will be manifested as the Kingdom of the Heavens when Christ shall return and establish Himself on the Throne of David for 1000 years and those of us who are counted worthy shall reign with Him for 1000 years:Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priest of God and of Christ and will riegn with Him for 1000 years."Graftedbranch

f justification and sanctification were the same thing, as you imply, these people would not have testimonies that declare differently.Brother, I don't suggest that sanctification and justification are the same thing. Justification is the basis by which we are regeneratated and regeneration ushers us into the Process of sanctification.This process takes a life time. It is not a one time event. It is a process. We are being sanctified. It's initiation is at our regeneration but its outworking is over many years and through many differeint experiences of Christ and His working within us.With some their initial experience is deep and profound and they are imediatly separated from the world, sin and such, But with others the process takes time and through many experiences and the Lord's dealings with us. When we are saved, we are being sanctified. The Spirit is always working to sanctify us. He is within us and He is working to subdue us, to grow in us, to separate us from everything contrary to Christ. His work begins immediatly, our response may be lacking and dragged out over many years.But Sanctification is a process which we are saved into according to the Scriptures which is where we derive Truth. Our very salvation is the result of the Spirit's initial work in sanctifiying us unto the obedience of faith and the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ.Hebrews 2:11 says, "For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers."Christ is the one sanctifying us and we are the ones being sanctified. And we are both (Christ and us) of one Father (as our source ie we are regenerated with His Life) therefore He is not ashamed to call us brothers..2 Thess 2:13 But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth.1 Peter 1:2 "Chosen according to the foreknowlege of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied"The children of Isreal struck the Blood and ate the Lamb. The striking of the Blood saved them from condemnation and the eating of the Lamb strengthened them to rise up and leave Egypt and pass through the waters. The Eating of the Lamb signifies the taking in of Christ. And this initiated the process of sanctification and the leaving of Egypt (the world) and comming out from under the authority of Pharaoh (Satan).The Blood was external toward God and speaks of the application of the Blood of Christ as our redemption and justification, and the eating of the Lamb was internal and speaks of our regeneration issuing in dispositional sanctification (Dispensational sanctification refers to our position being set apart in Christ, but dispositional refers to our actual experience of sanctification and growth in Life).Graftedbranch

Quote:In the parable of the tower and also the king making war, we are warned to count the cost of being a Christian.He was the cost. We are baptized into His death and His suffering. The parable of the man building his house on either sand or rock, again shows the necessity of obedience in order to expect salvation. He is the Rock and on this Rock of revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is our salvation and upon that He will build His Church.The Parable of the absent master speaks of faithfulness to the Lord, if the servant stops being a good servant and chooses to become a poor servant then destruction becomes his part.Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.A bond servant is under a master and we are told if we can become free do so. A servant cannot call a master Father. But a son can, and a son can choose to be the servant as Christ did. Because He thought it Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:We must do the same and not put ourselves into bondage again, but choose because of who we are to be a servant. Not because of what we do, but because of who we are, son's of the Father and brother's and sister's of Christ and each other.Christ is all and in all and we must see that the parables are for those that are under the Law and ruled by a King on this earth who is not blood kin to the One appointing the King chosen Of God who's Blood flowed through His Vanes. Even as we are son's we must choose as Christ did to empty ourselves and believe ourselves to be nothing for the surpassing knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. Then take upon ourselves to be servants, not by what we do but by who we are In Christ. Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: A son is a servant to His Father because he now has the same nature as the Father and chooses to honor Him by becoming a servant. Remember the Prodigal Son, he begged just to be as the Father's servants and what did the Father do. Not because the son worked for it but because the Father loved Him did He place The Seal of The Father's ring and robe and prepared a feast, just like us the wedding feast of the Lamb.In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou and GraftedbranchI think you two guys are both up to your neck in false doctrine. I don't care to discuss matters with you any further.

That is a good word Phillip.Graftedbranch

I think you two guys are both up to your neck in false doctrine. I don't care to discuss matters with you any further.Acts 17:32 And when they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some scoffed; and others said, "We will hear you again concerning this".People react differently.Graftedbranch

Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. There is much about dispensational theology, so what is the Holy Scripture teaching here in regards to John the Baptist being filled by the Holy Spirit even in his mother's womb? What is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in John?In ChristJeff

There is much about dispensational theology, so what is the Holy Scripture teaching here in regards to John the Baptist being filled by the Holy Spirit even in his mother's womb? What is the result of the Holy Spirit's work in John?John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit. That is what the Scripture says. Amen. Many in the Old Testament were filled with the Spirit. Graftedbranch

Mat 13:45-51 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net , that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Now, If the Kingdom itself is "Going to heaven when you die" or even Heaven itself, How can it be sown into the ground and grow up into a large tree? He is not talking here about "the Word of the Kingdom" but the Kingdom itself.This Kingdom is not heaven. Heaven is already there. IN the heavens. Christ is in heaven in Glory. But the Kingdom today is like a seed sown into the ground and it grows up. Heaven is not growing up.The Kingdom of the heavens is not heaven but the Kingdom which is of the heavens which is growing now in the hearts of those in whom the Word has been sown through the Spirit. And in the comming age it will be manifested as the Kingdom of the Heavens when Christ shall return and establish Himself on the Throne of David for 1000 years and those of us who are counted worthy shall reign with Him for 1000 years:?This doctrine is not true according to the Bible.

This doctrine is not true according to the Bible.Brother, there is nothing in the scriptures you quoted that would infer that "this doctrine is not true. It is the doctrine of the Scriptures and the whole body of the New Testament bears it up.Graftedbranch

Are we not seated in Heavenly places with Christ Jesus? If so why are we still on this earth. We must separate body, soul, and spirit, flesh, mind and spirit. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, How can this be? In heaven and on earth at the same time. We are saved in Spirit and our spirit is Now the Spirit of Christ Jesus that is Birthed in us. That part is perfect and complete a whole new creature Satan out and Christ in. We are being saved in soul, the mind is our soul and it is closely connected to the spirit that is how the influence of Christ and His righteousness is made righteousness to us.The mind is being saved and will always be in that mode from now to eternity, we will always be learning Christ, who is God and no being, not even an adopted son who now has the Nature of The Father, by new birth, will ever exhaust the Mind of God. Our bodies will be saved in the resurrection. So we are saved in spirit, being saved in soul, and will be saved in body. 2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death,(Spirit of Christ in us) and doth deliver: (The Holy Spirit who is revealing the Mind of Christ in us) in whom we trust that He will yet deliver us; (ON Resurrection morning, a body Like His) delivered, Past tense at regeneration birth, doth deliver, Present tense, now being taught, will yet deliver, future tense.The kingdom of heaven is where we are in spiritThe kingdom of heaven is what we are being taught in our soul mind by the Holy Spirit.The kingdom of heaven is why our bodies have been quickened to contain the Holiness of Christ in us the Hope of Glory, until we are given our new resurrected bodies Like His.The 1000 years is for Israel, the Born Again are already in the Father's House, that Christ is preparing the place for us. He said, "if it were not true I would have told you so.In Christ: Phillip

Brother GB wrote:John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit. That is what the Scripture says. Amen. Many in the Old Testament were filled with the Spirit. So based on your statement do you teach that John the Baptist was born of the Spirit?In ChristJeff

"He was not only a zealous preacher in the pulpit, but a sincere Christian inhis closet, frequent in self-examination, as well as in pressing it uponothers; being afraid, lest while he preached to others he himself should be acast-away. To prove this, I shall transcribe what follows from his owndiary."“To make sure of eternal life, (said he) is the great business whichthe sons of death have to do in this world. Whether a man considerthe immortality of his own soul, the ineffable joys and glory ofheaven, the extreme and endless torments of hell, the inconceivablesweetness of peace of conscience, or the misery of being subject tothe terrors thereof; all these put a necessity, a solemnity, a gloryupon this work. But, Oh! the difficulties and dangers attending it!How many, and how great are these? What judgement, faithfulness,resolution, and watchfulness does it require? Such is thedeceitfulness, darkness, and inconstancy of our hearts, and suchthe malice, policy and diligence of Satan to manage and improve it,that he who attempts this work had need both to watch hisseasons for it, and frequently look up to God for his guidance and illumination, and to spend many sad and serious thoughts before headventure upon a determination and conclusion of the state of hissoul.To the end therefore that this most important work may notmiscarry in my hands, I have collected, with all the care I can, thebest and soundest characters I can find in the writings of ourmodern divines, taken out of the scripture, and by their laboursillustrated and prepared for use, that I might make a rightapplication of them.1. I have earnestly sought the Lord for the assistance of his Spirit,which can only manifest my own heart unto me, and show me the truestate thereof, which is that thing my soul does most earnestly desire toknow; and I hope the Lord will answer my desire therein, according tohis promises, Luke 11:13. John 14:26.2. I have endeavoured to cast out and lay aside self-love, lest my heartbeing prepossessed therewith, my judgement should be perverted, andbecome partial on passing sentence on my estate. I have, in somemeasure, brought my heart to be willing to judge and condemn myselffor an hypocrite, if such I shall be found on trial, as to approve myselffor sincere and upright. Yea, I would have it so far from being grievousto me so to do, that if I have been all this while mistaken and deceived,I shall rejoice and bless the Lord with my soul, that now at last it maybe discovered to me, and I may be set right, though I lay thefoundation new again. This I have laboured to bring my heart to,knowing that thousands have dashed and split to pieces upon thisrock. And indeed he that will own the person of a judge, must put offthe person of a friend.3. It has been my endeavour to keep upon my heart a deep sense ofthat great judgement-day throughout this work as knowing byexperience what a potent influence this has on the conscience, to makeit deliberate, serious and faithful in its work, and therefore I havedemanded of my sun conscience, before the resolution of eachquestion, O my conscience, deal faithfully with me in this particular,and say no more to me than thou wilt own and stand to in the greatday, when the counsels of all hearts shall be made manifest.4. Having seriously weighed each mark, and considered where in theweight and substance of it lieth, I have gone to the Lord in prayer forhis assistance, ere I have drawn up the answer of my conscience, andas my heart has been persuaded therein, so have I determined andresolved: what has been clear to my experience, I have so set down;and what has been dubious, I have here left it so.5. I have made choice of the fittest seasons I had for this work, and setto it when I have found my heart in the most quiet and serious frame.For as he that would see his face in a glass, must be fixed, not inmotion, or in water, must make no commotion in it; so it is in this case.6. Lastly, To the end I may be successful in this work, I have labouredall along carefully to distinguish betwixt such sins as are grounds ofdoubting, and such as are only grounds of humiliation; knowing thatnot every evil is a ground of doubting, though all, even the smallestinfirmities, administer matter of humiliation; and thus I have desired toenterprise this great business. O Lord, assist thy servant, that he maynot mistake herein; but, if his conscience do now condemn him, he maylay a better foundation whilst he has time; and if it shall now acquithim, he may also have boldness in the day of judgement.”From The Life of John Flavel

So based on your statement do you teach that John the Baptist was born of the Spirit?No. Primarily because in the New Testament we are shown that regeneration is based in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"Prior to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection there was no "new birth". The New Birth was prophecied in the Old Testament, "a new spirit I will put within them, and My Spirit I will put within them". It is Christ as the Resurrected Life Giving Spirit who regenerates us and indwells us (1 Cor 15:45). To be born again requires Christ to be processed in becomming flesh and dying and resurrecting to enter into us as Life.IN the Old Testament the Spirit came upon people, filled people and indwelt them. But He was not one with them in Life. He was not their life. The question is, is our perception of the Spirit's work within us today limited to our concept of the Spirit's work in the Old Testament.If we don't see a difference, It may because we do not see the intrinsic difference and the reality of the Spirit within us as Life.Our difficulty may be that we are limiting in our concept God's New Testament work to what we see in the Old Testament and don't realize that "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17). This the Old Testament saints could not say.Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:The question is, is our perception of the Spirit's work within us today limited to our concept of the Spirit's work in the Old Testament.The life of Abraham and all that it teaches us, gives us the path by which God has chosen to save fallen man. We are saved by grace through faith. This statement defines the work of God in those who discover the essence of this faith. God speaks His promises to His people. If He promises to be their God, does He hold anything back that would cause man to rely on his own carnal mind and fallen nature? To teach anything less means that the one's doctrine has an inaccurate view of God's work and desire for His people. Was Melchizedec real or just a story?In ChristJeff

God speaks His promises to His people. If He promises to be their God, does He hold anything back that would cause man to rely on his own carnal mind and fallen nature? To teach anything less means that the one's doctrine has an inaccurate view of God's work and desire for His people.Brother,I am not sure why you want to minimize the significane of God's plan and purpose when, IN the fullness of Time, He sent forth His Son, born under Law...Is Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection of no signifigance? Did He accomplish nothing that was unaccomplished before?Is the Old covenant the same as the New and nothing has been changed? Graftedbranch

Quote, brother Rookie:""The life of Abraham and all that it teaches us, gives us the path by which God has chosen to save fallen man. We are saved by grace through faith. This statement defines the work of God in those who discover the essence of this faith."" Abraham did not have the Faith of the Son of God in Him. That is why God had to recon Abraham's obedience to Him as righteousness.After the Cross, we that are saved by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is now our Faith. Our righteousness is now made to us form God the Father in Christ Jesus. We need no reckoning of righteousness because Christ is our righteousness. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (The Holy Spirit) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:As to faith; Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Do we see that the faith of faithful Abraham was to believe God concerning his son Jacob. Just as we must believe God our Father about His Son Jesus Christ. Then we receive salvation in Christ and The Faith of Christ and The Holy Spirit. Abraham received not of these, only the promise that Christ would be his heir to save the world from sin.Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh ((I live by the faith of the Son of)) God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, ((that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.))Given not reckoned Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence ((by the faith of Him.))"The Life we now live we live by the Faith of The Son of God, Who has been Born Again in those that Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.Not that God would give Abraham back his son Jacob in the resurrection of the dead, but God provided the Ram in the thicket as the sacrifice instead of Jacob. The Ram is a perfect picture or What Jesus would do for us on the Cross if we believe. We no longer have to die for our sin, but live to God by the Christ that is in us.In Christ: Phillip

Abraham did not have the Faith of the Son of God in Him. That is why God had to recon Abraham's obedience to Him as righteousness."Galatians 3:6-10 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for rightousness. Know then that they which are of faith, these are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles out of faith, announced the gospel beforehand to Abraham: "In you shall all nations be blessed." So then they who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them..."Abraham was justified out of faith.Even in the Old Testament men were justified out of faith. The Law came in because of transgression as a child conducter to bring us to faith in Chirst.But justification is not regeneration. That is, to be justified is to be accounted rightouse. It is to have rightousness imputed to us. Abraham was justified out of faith and was accounted rightouse.Regeneration and the New Birth are on the basis of justification and the product of the Lord's crucifixion and resurrection.Abraham was accounted rightouse on the basis of the Lord's comming incarnation, crucifixion and redeeming death. And the "gospel was preached prophetically before hand to him in the Promise.In the Old Testament we have the gospel in types, shadows, figures, and prophecy. In the New Testamant we have the reality and the fulfillment.In order for the Lord to regenerate us, to indwell us as our Life and to make us sons of God not just in standing but in life and nature, He had to come into the world, be made flesh, be crucified, and resurrect and be glorified in order to impart Himself into us as Eternal Life.The Old Testamant saints had the promise of eternal Life but not the Life itself. They did not possess the indwelling Eternal Life of God in Christ as their Life. They were not one spirit with the Lord. He filled them, empowered them, accomplished His purposes in them, and through the Spirit He fellowshiped with them in much the same way as we have today but He was not their Life. They were not One spirit with the Lord (1 cor. 6:17).Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:Is the Old covenant the same as the New and nothing has been changed? The purpose of the old covenant was to teach about sin and that all are condemned by the old covenant. We know that nothing is made perfect by the laws given on Mount Sinai. Only God's provision of mercy and grace through His Promise does one escape the effects of the Old Covenant.Ezek. 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!” It was never God's will that any should perish. If this is true how does God enable men to overcome the effects of the Old Covenant? In ChristJeff

Brother GB wrote:Is Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection of no signifigance? Did He accomplish nothing that was unaccomplished before?All of this was accomplished before Adam was created in His image. One must be able to distinguish between the "work of God" and the revelation of the mystery. The revelation of Christ gives more understanding of what has always been. Thus God's requirements become greater as the revelation becomes clearer. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:"The Life we now live we live by the Faith of The Son of God, Who has been Born Again in those that Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.Not that God would give Abraham back his son Jacob in the resurrection of the dead, but God provided the Ram in the thicket as the sacrifice instead of Jacob. The Ram is a perfect picture or What Jesus would do for us on the Cross if we believe. We no longer have to die for our sin, but live to God by the Christ that is in us.Psa. 1:1 \tBlessed is the man\tWho walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,\t\tNor stands in the path of sinners,\t\tNor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 \tBut his delight is in the law of the LORD,\t\tAnd in His law he meditates day and night. 3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. 4 \tThe ungodly are not so,\tBut are like the chaff which the wind drives away. 5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 \tFor the LORD knows the way of the righteous,\tBut the way of the ungodly shall perish. There is the congregation of the righteous that is planted by the rivers of water that brings forth fruit in season. According to Scripture which covenant can only bring forth righteousness?In ChristJeff

""All of this was accomplished before Adam was created in His image. One must be able to distinguish between the "work of God" and the revelation of the mystery. The revelation of Christ gives more understanding of what has always been. Thus God's requirements become greater as the revelation becomes clearer.""There is a plan, it exists in the mind of the Planner, but the battle has not been fought. If the battle is never fought the plan is just a plan and the war is still there. The Plan from before the beginning of the world was to use man who is a little bit lower than the Angels to prove to all creation that God is perfect and His Love is perfect and anybody that challenges this will be shown accordingly that God is right. In This Plan God wanted to have son's, He has always wanted son's, but they in His creating would always rebel against Him so His Plan included the only solution to His Plan and that was to put Himself and His nature in the creation and He chose Man to be the receiver of this nature. He brought forth a Son of His own loins, and He was the express image of Himself and was All that He was in nature and essence and Love and Perfection. For God to be justified in Making this Person the Justification of the race of humans that would make them his true son's, He Killed this only begotten Son as a sacrifice and an atonement by the shedding of His blood that all might saved, but some would not believe what He had done and would be lost. They would choose to follow another created being who was higher than they, in who they would believe a lie, for this created being wanted to be God also, so he lied to the lower creation and got them to believe him instead of God. Since they chose whom they would believe that liar became their father for he new that God wanted to be a Father. We know the rest of the story and it is still being worked out in the Plan of God and will continue until God has proven without anyone being able not to see the truth, that he is right. This is real and it is a war that is still being fought and will be until all of God's Plan is finished. What happened at the Cross is real and it is a place in time that all is being shown to all concerned and will ultimately be the means that all will see This Son that Was Crucified for all, that all might become son's of God. The ones that have not accepted this truth will at a certain point in the Plan, know without a any question that Jesus Christ is the total of this Plan and every knee will bow and every mind confess that Jesus Christ is God and He is the Brother to all son's that believed That God is His Father and ours'.There is a plan and it is unfolding and all will be accomplished as God wants. But you cannot say that all had the same choice before the Cross as those since the Cross. All that died to bring forth this Plan would have died in vane. And nothing would continue to be accomplished in the Plan. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father's House as son's. In the Mind of God He always was and always will be. We must go through this plan to be able to have a position in this House that Jesus Christ is preparing a place for all those that believe that He is the Son of God.In Christ: Phillip

Paul asked: "Who shall separate us from the love of God...?"I answer: "NO ONE, except ourselves!! You're saved, doesn't mean you're now a robot!"Conclusion: Paul replies: Take heed, Brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil Heart of Unbelief, in departing from the Living God; But exhort one another daily, while it is called to day, lest any of you be hardened through the Deceitfulness of Sin [Heb. 4:12-13].Let us labour therefore to enter into that Rest, lest any man fall after the same Example of Unbelief [Heb. 4:11].For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made Partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the Powers of the World to come; If they shall fall away; to renew them again unto Repentance, seeing they crucifie to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame [Heb. 6:4-6].Looking diligently, lest any man fail of the Grace of God, lest any root of Bitterness springing up, trouble you, and thereby many be defiled [Heb. 12:15].My response: OSAS, Please lets be real, get your lives together, "without holiness NO one shall see God..." What makes you think you're exempt from this statement, I care not a straw how any doctrine defines or explains this statement, scripture is as clear as crystal. Thank you all, and may we continue to labor to the cross daily, in long-suffering, patience, persecution and love.

""My response: OSAS, Please lets be real, get your lives together, "without holiness NO one shall see God..." What makes you think you're exempt from this statement, I care not a straw how any doctrine defines or explains this statement, scripture is as clear as crystal.""No one is exempt, that is why Christ died on the Cross. I certaintly cannot make myself holy. The Christ in me is the only holliness I have.By His Holliness is my holliness, He is the one that makes the things pleasing to our Father not by my works lest any man should boast, but by the works that Christ does through me. Paul also said I can do nothing of myself, and how are we going to do anything that does not keep me in debt to who I was, A Sinner, Saved By Jesus Christ giving His Life a ransome for my life, I can do nothing of myself to change my status as a Lost Sinner, Only the Christ in me can do that. That is why Paul stated I can do all things through and in Christ Jesus.Philippians 4:12-13 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.I can do nothing to break this grasp that sin has on me. Only Christ can do what is necessary to set me free. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. His works in and through me are the only works that are pleasing to the Father. If I am born again God will not abort me. He has promised He will never leave me or forsake me. That is good enough for me, He has saved me and He will keep me. We can chase our own works as much as we want but none of them will make us born again, only A Father give Seed for Birth, And that is who is birthed in me The Father's Seed the incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ who is God Himself. Amen.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:There is a plan, it exists in the mind of the Planner, but the battle has not been fought. If the battle is never fought the plan is just a plan and the war is still thereIf one believes in the doctrine of the Trinity how does this impact the Deity of Christ before He became man? Was His position within the Trinity something less than what He is now? In ChristJeff

Absoultly Not.Christ is God and He always was and always will be. He manifest Himself on the Cross as all man and all God. His manifestation of a man is the only shed blood of a man to shed blood, for there is no remission of sin without the shedding blood. God could not accept the blood of animals to take away sin for a man. The Blood of the Testator is the only Blood God can accept that would take away sin, that is why it only had to be done once for all. It had to be or the Plan could not work, it took a time and a place of that shed Blood. Then God appointed Paul who revealed the mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, or it could not be so. Before it happened it was just a plan, after it happened it was a fact. That is why the life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God that is Born Again in me, before it was a fact it could not be.The war has been won and the defeated one is still trying to take with him all he can. The choice in no longer in his hands but in whom the war was won for. Now all that must happen is each person must believe in the Winner. In Christ: Phillip

The trouble with Once Saved always saved, is the person making the Judgment. Do you worship a god or God?

If one believes in the doctrine of the Trinity how does this impact the Deity of Christ before He became man? Was His position within the Trinity something less than what He is now?God is immutable. God in His Divine Being never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.Christ is the Eternal Word of God, the Eternal Expression of God, the 2nd of the Divine trinity.IN Incarnation This Eternal Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory.This Eternal Son of God, took on created human flesh, He took on mutable, created humanity. He was found in the fashon as a man, He had man's weakness, He was humgry, He was limited in space and time, He suffered, and He died a human death.In Resurrection This humanity was uplifed into the Divine Glory, permeated with the Divine Life and Christ not just as God but as a Man was exalted to the right hand of God and crowned with Glory and honor.Today there is a Man in the Glory. Before Christ came, He had, "the Glory which He ever had with the Father before the World was (John 17) but today, He is glorified with this glory "as a Man".Christ today as God is no more exalted than He ever was. But as a Man, He has taken on humanity, and uplifted humanity into the Divine Glory. And us with Him as those who have been redeemed, partaken of His Life and are being transformed into the same image. We have been called through the gospel unto the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 2:14)Graftedbranch

The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law.Ok, maybe I should be shot for bringing this back up. I just wanted to point out something I seen the other day. I thought about starting a new thread but I won't..If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ.If you study James you will see he has a BIG PROBLEM with putting Gentiles under the law. Act 15:13-20 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.