Narnia series

Have some of you read the Narnia book series?As I'm not reviewing this book not having read it myself I suppose this topic fits best in the lounge. :-) My question is this, what does seperate Narnia from Lord of the Rings? I found C.S. Lewis book 'The problem of pain' a good read.What are your people's insight on this?Be blessed,Jonathan

Personally I believe the types in Narnia more closely picture a christian allegory than that of Lord of the Rings, however, The movie LOTR did open up some previously closed doors to share Jesus (did you know ---btw--- that Tokken was one of the students/assoc. friends or Lewis and wrote LOTR at Lewis' proding?)In issues like this I believe we have a choice to look at the glass half empty or half full :-) , and I always like to view the oppurtunity laid before us in the positive. Our time is running out.

The movie LOTR did open up some previously closed doors to share JesusHow so?(did you know ---btw--- that Tokken was one of the students/assoc. friends or Lewis and wrote LOTR at Lewis' proding?)Yes, I've read that. But I was having doubt about LOTR. So I'm a bit confused.. :-?

In regards to sharing the Gospel, there are some very spicific things that have to be addressed that "commercialised evangelism" tries to avoid sometimes. How do these movies press people to consider their sin, show a need to repent, or even glorify Christ?I heard someone say once that a movie like Lord of the Rings has as much in it to deceive a person as to open them up to Christ: One of the good guys is a wizard (witchcraft is Biblically forbidden), not to mention that it is about as packed as it could be with mere stories. Is it possible, that while the storyline is loosely taken to represent spiritual warfare, that it's meant to be just entertainment, nothing more?I have a hard time, when the only tool many of our evangelists are using is a movie, and then trying to explain how that movie is tied into truth.

In regards to sharing the Gospel, there are some very spicific things that have to be addressed that "commercialised evangelism" tries to avoid sometimes. How do these movies press people to consider their sin, show a need to repent, or even glorify Christ?So far I know there are no commercial movies which let people consider their sin, show a need to repent or glorify Christ.I heard someone say once that a movie like Lord of the Rings has as much in it to deceive a person as to open them up to Christ: One of the good guys is a wizard (witchcraft is Biblically forbidden), not to mention that it is about as packed as it could be with mere stories. Is it possible, that while the storyline is loosely taken to represent spiritual warfare, that it's meant to be just entertainment, nothing more?Well It's possible for God to open up a person for the gospel after viewing such a movie. Whatever means God uses to get a person to be looking for the Truth is between God and that person and such a movie might be one of the little things. But I doubt that this enables us that we can point to movies instead of Christ now, certainly if the movie contains unbiblical things..LOTR or such has a nice story and admittedly it would be very entertaining if I would not know that God indeed forbids witchcraft and wizardry. I have no reason to watch this movie, apart from entertaining myself.I have a hard time, when the only tool many of our evangelists are using is a movie, and then trying to explain how that movie is tied into truth.

I have a hard time, when the only tool many of our evangelists are using is a movie, and then trying to explain how that movie is tied into truth. I agree. Let's just close the door to the churches, fold up all revival tents (as few as there are), stop handing out tracts and start handing out "Variety" and program fliers. We'll let Hollywood and its filth expound the gospel and biblical truths for us. NOT. (head lowered in shame)LOTR or such has a nice story and admittedly it would be very entertaining if I would not know that God indeed forbids witchcraft and wizardry. I have no reason to watch this movie,... You would be surprised at how many "born-again" christians see this movie as acceptable and think it can be used to bring souls to Christ as if it was heaven sent.

You would be surprised at how many "born-again" christians see this movie as acceptable and think it can be used to bring souls to Christ as if it was heaven sent.Well most of my friends have no trouble watching this at all. I doubt that most know what the term 'born again' actually means.My question about Narnia still stands though.Surely there must be someone who read the books!

Certainly CS Lewis wrote the series from the Christian worldview and it carries a lot of underlying Christian themes. It is a significant Christian contribution to a world of literature saturated with non-Biblical worldviews.However, I do not think he had evangelism in mind when he wrote the book. Nevertheless, since these books have captured the imaginations of the secular world, it serves as a possible common ground from which Christians can communicate the Gospel, by highlighting the Christian themes and further refering seekers to Christ and the scriptures as the ultimate source of inspiration for CS Lewis.It is not the tool for evangelism, but it certainly can be a tool for evangelism. Clearly, we must carefully consider how we use such tool; but we could hardly fault CS Lewis for writing a series of novel as a Christian writer.

If you do decide to read the Chronicles of Narnia (which I highly encourage you to do) please read them in the correct order.The Lion, the Witch, and the WardrobePrince CaspianVoyage of the Dawn TreaderThe Silver ChairThe Horse and His BoyThe Magicians NephewThe Last Battle :-D Tiffanie

I absolutely love the Narnia books and have read them when I was younger and even as an adult as it is exceptional. First, Narnia is geared toward a younger audience. LOTR's is a novel. It's an adult or young adult read. Narnia books, however, could be read to a 6 year old (i.e.- a chapter a night before bed). The series was actually started when Lewis had some children staying at his country house during WWII to keep them out of the way of the city bombings. He oral communicated the stories, and only later on in life put them to the page.Second, there is less of a fantasy “world” than the LOTR. Tolkein created Middle Earth out of whole cloth. He gave it a history, characters, it’s own languages, etc. There is no passing from Middle Earth to our Earth. However, in Lewis’ Narnia, ordinary children from our world actually “slip” into Narnia. It makes it more interesting for those who would read it, as you could be one of those children.Thirdly, as said before, the types are far more obviously Christian. Aslan the lion himself actually tells the children (I forget which book, The Dawn Treader, I think) he is Jesus in the world they come from. Not to spoil it for you, but there is a crucifixion and resurrection in the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. It’s moving and awesome. Therefore, it can probably be said that children (and adults alike) will be able to draw the line from Narnia to real life. I heard Focus on the Family this morning and the point wsa made: people will be able to more clearly draw the line from this story to the Bible. It’ll jump out more (“Hey, that’s just like Jesus!!!) Fourthly, there are other themes he weaves into the books regarding absolute truth, eschatology, obedience, sin, and items along those lines.Finally, to those who seem to comments on how the LOTR and how the Bible condemns witchcraft, please get your collective heads out of your legalistic sand holes. Gandalf the wizard in no way what-so-ever endorses witchcraft as the Bible condemns (have you even read the books?!?), and for all intent and purposes was a type of Christ as he is actually resurrected in the story. There has been such a multitude of information on how LOTR and Narnia are different than a Harry Potter type witchcraft, to not have done the research and then make the comments above is irresponsible. Are books that were written recently like “Finding God in the LOTR” lying when they can (quite easily) draw the parralles between Biblical truth and Tolkein’s works?C.S. Lewis talks about magic in his books (see the book “Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer”), and space travel and other planets as other spiritual realms in his fiction, maybe we should just close the covers on his works as well. Lord knows there is nothing to those “damnable” theories. Or maybe, just maybe, they are representing something in their stories of good and evil, resurrection and redemption, faith and hope and love, something that can and IS used constructively to further people in their relationship and knowledge of/with God and Jesus himself. Tolkein made the point (as I am sure he had his miserly critics in his own lifetime) that there are two types of escape (or “entertainment” as some have said). You will think of a man cowardly escaping from the front lines of a battle much differently than you would of a man escaping from a prison to get home. Tolkein believed his books belonged in the later category drawing lines in his themes to greater realities of truth of a heart and soul after true truth.I’ve never met a person that thought the LOTR movies were evangelical (as in to evangelize people) in anyway what so ever. It was not written for that intent, nor was the movie made for that intent either. But I think they can be used as bridges to the greater reality and truth of Jesus as they carry biblical themes. But please don’t be so prideful to think that revival tents or churches or tracts offer more than a movie or a theater. You’d be hard pressed to prove they offer more to people than other options. You know it is not the location of a message, it’s the message itself. Tolkein made no greater parable than our Lord himself would have used in his own time.

I know they came out in a different order then the storyline, but wasn't the order:The Magicians NephewThe Lion, the Witch, and the WardrobeThe Horse and His BoyPrince CaspianVoyage of the Dawn TreaderThe Silver ChairThe Last BattleI think the Magicians Nephew actually has the start of Narnia in it, right?. :-)

Actually, the books were originally ordered the way that I listed them in my last post. I am not sure why the order has been changed as of late. In my opinion, I think people will get a lot more out of the stories if they are read in the original order. They are much more exciting! :o)Tiffanie

I guess it's opinion. :-P I always liked how they panned out in chronological order rather than in the order they were released.

brethrenthe Lord has led me though the Acts of the Holy Spirit and as far as evangelism goes, this is the trend that He showed me.1)the Holy Spirit directed the apostles or whoever was sent with the gospel to point out that whowver was receiving the message was a sinner in need of redemption.2)the person(s) was(were) convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and repented.3)the person(s) then was baptized and was added to the body of believers and the Lord added daily to their ranks because the apostles followed the leadings of the Spirit. if we want to add to the ranks of those of us who are believers this is what we need to do. This is the precedent set by God through the Holy Spirit and our problem today aside from the false current church structure is lack of submission to the Holy Spirit. i mean look at what we are discussing, in essence using our imaginings to preach the gospel!we already have a blueprint, let the Holy Spirit speak and do whatever the Father says. i mean brethren it is most creative of us to try and use any little thing we can to preach Christ and to me that smacks of perspiration rather than the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The gospel message is simple, why do we complicate it so?i fear this blending of the secular with the Christian is most grieving to the Holy Spirit as it hinders the work of God. the only way that one can be led to Christ is that the person is convicted of his sin, repents and accepts the gift of salvation.Thirdly, as said before, the types are far more obviously Christian. Aslan the lion himself actually tells the children (I forget which book, The Dawn Treader, I think) he is Jesus in the world they come from. Not to spoil it for you, but there is a crucifixion and resurrection in the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. It’s moving and awesome. Therefore, it can probably be said that children (and adults alike) will be able to draw the line from Narnia to real life. I heard Focus on the Family this morning and the point wsa made: people will be able to more clearly draw the line from this story to the Bible. It’ll jump out more (“Hey, that’s just like Jesus!!!) i'd never heard of this book till now but i'm disturbed by Aslan telling the children that he is Christ. that doesn't sit right with my spirit at all and i pray we all ask ourselves or better yet seek the Lord on how He feels about all of this. is what's written in scripture concerning God and our salvation not good enough for us that we have to bring in fictional stories to spread the gospels?have we no faith in the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that we become most inventive in reeling people into salvation?has the gospel become too simple for us now that we have become os sophisticated? brethren the success of the early church was tied to them simply following the leadings of the Holy SPirit and preaching the simple gospel, if we want to be involved in the coming of the Kingdom we need to go back to the roots on which the church was founded on. bro Randilover if Focus on the family endorses this movie as one that can be used to win souls that's one thing but at the end of the day if Christ Himself doesn't approve of using such things then we should not use them for the spreading of the gospel.Finally, to those who seem to comments on how the LOTR and how the Bible condemns witchcraft, please get your collective heads out of your legalistic sand holes. Gandalf the wizard in no way what-so-ever endorses witchcraft as the Bible condemns (have you even read the books?!?), and for all intent and purposes was a type of Christ as he is actually resurrected in the story. There has been such a multitude of information on how LOTR and Narnia are different than a Harry Potter type witchcraft, to not have done the research and then make the comments above is irresponsible. Are books that were written recently like “Finding God in the LOTR” lying when they can (quite easily) draw the parralles between Biblical truth and Tolkein’s works?isn't a wizard one who practices some sort of magic? isn't witchcraft any sort of power practised or exhibited that is not of God?again about Gandalf being resurrected and then equating that to a type of Christ is blaspheming Christ in my opinion. if you or anyone else want to make that stretch of judgement, that's cool, i'd rather err on the side of caution and not try and mix Christ with anything else.if however one would like to make that connection i think it would be a good idea to seek the Lord on it and be sure lest one kindles His wrath against himself.the word says in proverbs that there is a way which seems right unto man but the end therof is destruction...it seems ok to try and see how God can be found in the Lord of the rings and so on but at the end of the day that may well lead us into destruction. call me legalistic but i'd rather be at odds with the world and be in good standing with God than be at odds with God...the former is a battle that is won, the latter is a battle one is doomed to lose and there will be hell to pay for that loss.brethren in short the gospel is simple, the way to win souls is to allow the HOly Spirit to move in us and through us withour any hindrance. Peter spoke to the people in the temple shortly after Christ ascended to heaven and the Holy Spirit came and simply told the Jews that they killed the Messiah who was the Son of God. now long story or parable or any of this other foolishness we try to pass off as usable for spreading the word but only what the Holy Spirit gave him unction to speak. the people were troubled coz they were convicted by God and asked what to do and Peter told them to repent and be baptized. they were and in so doing joined the ranks of the believers. that's all there is to brethren. is that too simple for us? :-? if this simple gospel was good enough for those who got to hang out with Christ then it's good enough for me...

To reply to IRONMAN:Your point is well taken. I do not encourage mixing secularism with Christianity either. And I agree, many times when this happens it is blaspheme and a disgrace to a holy God. However, I would urge you to really look into the story of the Chronicles from a biblical perspective. I don't know if you have read any other C.S. Lewis writings, but if you have you know that he has a wealth of knowlegde leading to the ways of Christ. Keeping in mind that Lewis wrote the Chronicles for a younger audience in which his goal was to capture the imagination, while at the same time showing the nature of Christ by using characters, such as Aslan and the White Witch to represent people from the Bible (Christ and Satan respectively).I can definitely understand your hesitancy to engage your mind in a fictious book when you can read and meditate on the Word (I encourage you to do this) :o). But I do believe that God has anointed these books by C.S. Lewis, and has blessed many people who have spent the time reading these books and who have understood the imagery used by Lewis to hit at heart issues. Although these were written for kids, I sure was cut deeply by them. I can definitely say that I have been able to relate to many of the struggles that these characters face in these stories. As for The Lord of the Rings, I have never read them and to be honest I really don't have a desire to. I unforunitely saw the first two movies (back before I was a new creation) and I don't really care to read the books. But maybe that is just me :-( Well I hope this was helpful!Tiffanie

sis Roxii'm not entirely sure how i would go about reading the Chronicles of Narnia from a biblical perspective :-? but if the Lord leads i shall read it. i've not read any works from c.s. lewis (don't read much save for the word and whatever other books the Lord leads me to)or j.r.r. tolkien. i still wouldn't use such works to lead anyone to Christ, for that i'd lean solely on the leadings of the Holy Spirit who would lead me to scripture. i've watched the Lord of the rings trilogy (and may watch the lion witch and the wardrobe...maybe i watched the cartoon version as a child...)and i'm amazed at man's capacity for imagination and entertainment but the Lord doesn't require any of that to save souls. all He needs is a willing vessel to do whatever He leads one to to. this does beg a question though, why can't we just use the bible to teach out children about God? :-(

IRONMAN:I think that it is awesome that you are ih the Word, and I agree that we should point people to scripture. But I also believe that God is able to speak through anything to lead people to Himself. Anyway, continue seeking the Lord, and if the Spirit leads you to read the Chronicles, great! :o)Tiffanie

Hey, Ironman. I agree with the others about it's good to be in the Word. I also agree with you that apart from God, nothing else saves. My question would be what do you do with the gospels and the book of Acts when they use imaginative stories to draw parrelells to unbelievers?In much the same way our Lord used farmers and fishes and birds to communicate a greater truth, or Paul used a pagan altar to pin down conscience in unbelievers to lead them to the truth, Lewis used an imaginative land to communicate them as well. I do teach my daughter from the Bible, but I am looking forward to reading the Narnia Chron. to her and getting the wealth of information from them and drawing the paralells with the truths of the Bible. My child might not understand redemption as a biblical concept right away, but I can easily draw the line from Aslan the Lion laying down his life for Edmund since Edmund was a traitor and blood had to be spilled for trechery. She might not be able to get her arms around absolute truth and how reality is rooted and grounded in the the nature of God. But she'll be able to do so when she makes the connection between that and Puddlegum the Marshwiggle proclaiming in the face of evidence to the contrary, that no matter what he will not deny the truth of a land of light and warmth despite the enchantments of a wicked serpent. Again, I don't really see it as an evangelical tool, but to say it apostate because the characters are a type of Christ is crossing the line. The Bible references types all the time (think Hebrews expounding on Christ and Melchizedek [sp?], was the author "blaspheming" by doing so?). Lewis has reached a world of unbelievers with the gospel and planted seeds that bear fruit for Christ in his writings, most of the time never even quoting scripture in a word for word sense. Much the same way a preacher expounds on the Word, he did the same (using different tools).

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in you own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

bro Randiloverthe parables the Lord used were to do with things that were familiar to those to whome He spoke. they were also pretty simple and short. now for us looking back on them we can see they are pretty simple to understand because Holy Spirit has allowed us to understand. The disciples had Christ to explain the parables to them and i'm sure that after Christ left they explained them to many others. i think the whole idea of drawing such parallels to God from such stories is dangerous in that one can be distracted by the story itself. what's wrong with simply using what is in scripture? i don't think the Lord's simple parables about say the prodigal son or the mustard seed in any way resmble the complexity of the Chronicles of Narnia. :-? you make the assumption that your child may not understand the concept of salvation right away, what about trying to explain it from scripture as the Lord leads, you may be surpised. i have some friends who did this with their children and they had no problem grasping salvation. Perhaps we shield our children too much and assume them incapable of understanding the mystery of salvation. but didn't Christ say that we must be as children to understand the kingdom of God? does it not follow then that children would have no problems understanding such things?also about the characters in which Christ was revealed in the o.t. such as Melchizedek, they were not fictional. the only one i'm sure of is Melchizedek because He is the only one mentioned as a manifestation of Christ from the O.T. in the little i've read of the N.T. As far as i know Melchizedek's recognition as a manifestation of Christ is the only one that is qualified. perhaps someone knows of some others? so that is not blasphemy.if the Lord is leading you to draw such parallels from the Narnian Chonicles then so be it. He's not led me to do so so i'm not going to fight Him on that. until/untill He does, i'm not messin with any of that to use it in any way to lead people to Christ, not even my own daughter. again i say, the apostles and the others sent with the gospel spoke as Holy Spirit led and the pattern was always speaking against sin to show the need for repentance, then repentance of the person(s) and baptism. when they did this the Lord added daily to their number.is this way not good enough for us any more that we have to come up with such imaginings? are the old paths not good enough any more my brothers and sisters? it seems we are perspiring to do God's work rather than being inspired by Holy SPirit :-( . it seems like a good enough idea and seems to fit well enough to do this but like proverbs says, there is a way which seems right unto man, but the end result is destruction. Let us be sure what the Lord would have us do concerning souls because they are precious to Him. again if this is what the Lord is leading you to believe then so be it, but let us all be sure of what God would have us do concerning the salvation of our brothers.AMEN.

Hey Krispy,I don't find it a problem to question this if its not in a premade spirit of condemnation. As you say I'm not here to be politically correct but because I want the Truth. Regarding C.S. Lewis himself, I only know about the book 'The problem of pain' which I found a good read.I got in trouble on another forum like SI a few years ago because I dared to question C.S. Lewis' personal beliefs. That forum was becoming increasingly concerned about being "politically correct" ... SI is more concerned about truth. (Praise God!)As I have a problem with Lord of the Rings (as its very magic filled), I found it hard to find out that C.S. Lewis closely associated with Tolkien. I have no problem with fiction though; I've really enjoyed Randy Alcorn's books for example. With the only sidenote that I have to be careful not to let my Bible-reading suffer under it. :-)I think before everyone gets all excited about Narnia, people should really spend some time really studying C.S. Lewis' beliefs. He was more Roman Catholic than anything else... and even HE claimed that the Narnia series was NOT an allagory of Christ. C.S. Lewis was impressed with his friend Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and THAT was the inspiration for Narnia. Not the Bible.People have to decide for themselves (with God) if they are going to watch so and so movie.The question about Narnia rose up as I read a weblog of a friend of mine where she had started a discussion about Harry Potter. To be honest, I see no real difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. To my disappointion I see no real difference between Lord of the Rings and Narnia.I can be wrong, but if I'm not I wouldn't mind not reading the Narnia series or seeing the movie.The point is that I would like to find out before watching the movies or reading the books. (Is this possible even?) I don't try to be shortsighted but I do want to sit on the safe side as this is only entertainment.Perhaps its fair to ask God if He wants to give me the desire to read or see this movie if its good for me! Skip the perhaps, I will be asking this tonight.I'm not saying that people shouldnt see Narnia, or even Lord of the Rings, for that matter. But Christians need to realize that neither of these stories should be attributed to the Word of God for their inspiration. But the "Christian" merchants want you to believe that... so they can sell you their Narnia coffee mugs, pencils, book marks, etc etc.

Warrior4Jah wrote:Hey Krispy,As I have a problem with Lord of the Rings (as its very magic filled), I found it hard to find out that C.S. Lewis closely associated with Tolkien. I have no problem with fiction though; I've really enjoyed Randy Alcorn's books for example. With the only sidenote that I have to be careful not to let my Bible-reading suffer under it. :-) People have to decide for themselves (with God) if they are going to watch so and so movie.The question about Narnia rose up as I read a weblog of a friend of mine where she had started a discussion about Harry Potter. To be honest, I see no real difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. To my disappointion I see no real difference between Lord of the Rings and Narnia.I can be wrong, but if I'm not I wouldn't mind not reading the Narnia series or seeing the movie.I wrote already about the “magic” in Tolkein’s work, so I will not say much more other than you should read (at least a little) to get the context of how it’s used (or find a resource that explains it, there has to be a plethora of websites on the subject). It is light years different than Harry Potter, if for no other reason than it is total fiction where what Potter is made of is based (from what I’ve read) on actual modern day witchcraft practices. Also, as far as Narnia is concerned, off the top of my head, except for one part of the story, whenever magic is used, it has negative consequences. BTW, did you read Alcorn’s book, the name escapes me, of the two demon’s writing to each other. It’s based on Lewis Screwtape letters. It’s a level down from Lewis’ original, but it was an ok read.KrispyKrittr wrote:I think before everyone gets all excited about Narnia, people should really spend some time really studying C.S. Lewis' beliefs. He was more Roman Catholic than anything else... and even HE claimed that the Narnia series was NOT an allagory of Christ. C.S. Lewis was impressed with his friend Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and THAT was the inspiration for Narnia. Not the Bible. He was Anglican, actually. But the best part was that he never spoke or wrote from a denominational perspective, it was his pursuit of “mere Christianity,” the core beliefs of Christians that span denominations. I also find little in his personal beliefs that I disagree with. I’d be interested in hearing what you disagreed with of his writings. I’m not picking a fight or anything, just interested in what others think. I find his writings to be the best that I read. It’s like what Oswald Chambers said about how the authors you love are not the ones that teach you something new, but the ones who express what you already know/realize/feel. Also, I’d be interested in knowing where he said Narnia was not an allegory of Christ. It’s hard to think that is the case when the central character of the story offers his innocent life for the life of a guilty party, and then comes back to life. I realize he is not mirroring the Bible, but the concepts and themes are deeply Biblical. It would take hours to detail all of the overt and subtle references to Biblical truth in those books.KrispyKrittr wrote:I'm not saying that people shouldnt see Narnia, or even Lord of the Rings, for that matter. But Christians need to realize that neither of these stories should be attributed to the Word of God for their inspiration. But the "Christian" merchants want you to believe that... so they can sell you their Narnia coffee mugs, pencils, book marks, etc etc. I just got the latest catalogue for a big national Christian bookstore chain in the mail... and I saw 3 pages of Narnia "junk". Let the merchandizing begin!! I, too, get bugged by the marketing, but that is the world we live in. I think most of the real fans don’t buy into it, it kind of appeals to the casual fans and readers. It’ll pass and the story will remain where it was before they came along.

IRONMAN wrote:bro Randiloverthe parables the Lord used were to do with things that were familiar to those to whome He spoke. they were also pretty simple and short. now for us looking back on them we can see they are pretty simple to understand because Holy Spirit has allowed us to understand. I agree. But my point was that to say just because some one draws parallels, does nto mean they are overstepping their bounds. IRONMAN wrote:you make the assumption that your child may not understand the concept of salvation right away, what about trying to explain it from scripture as the Lord leads, you may be surpised. She usually does surprise me!!! :-) But I do not avoid anything with her, and we read our Fathers and Daughters Bible each night (when permissable). My point is that I am looking forward to reading them to her to get more of her involved in the Bible. I grew up with a great divide in my mind between imagination and what I guess we would call theology. It wasn't until I discovered Lewis and other that those two were thankfully bridged. I don't want that happening in my kids. I can teach a lesson much easier by invoking a word picture that trying to explain a theological truth. (Like we talked about already, Jesus used this in parables for the same reason). Much the same way we use the stories of the OT to bring NT truths to life. Think faith in David and Goliath, or reaping what you sow in Samson’s life, etc.IRONMAN wrote:also about the characters in which Christ was revealed in the o.t. such as Melchizedek, they were not fictional. the only one i'm sure of is Melchizedek because He is the only one mentioned as a manifestation of Christ from the O.T. in the little i've read of the N.T. As far as i know Melchizedek's recognition as a manifestation of Christ is the only one that is qualified. perhaps someone knows of some others? so that is not blasphemy. I am new to the board, so it may have been discussed before, but I don’t think Melchizedek can definitely be attributed as BEING an epiphany. I don’t disagree with those who think so, but Hebrews never really says it was or was not him, just that he is reflective of Christ. I realize he wasn’t fictional, but I was stressing the point that using types is not something blasphemous. David, Abraham, the priests, etc. were all types of Christ. I don’t think Lewis overstepped his bounds in drawing Aslan the lion up as a type of Christ. IRONMAN wrote:if the Lord is leading you to draw such parallels from the Narnian Chonicles then so be it. He's not led me to do so so i'm not going to fight Him on that. until/untill He does, i'm not messin with any of that to use it in any way to lead people to Christ, not even my own daughter. again i say, the apostles and the others sent with the gospel spoke as Holy Spirit led and the pattern was always speaking against sin to show the need for repentance, then repentance of the person(s) and baptism. when they did this the Lord added daily to their number.is this way not good enough for us any more that we have to come up with such imaginings? are the old paths not good enough any more my brothers and sisters? it seems we are perspiring to do God's work rather than being inspired by Holy SPirit :-( . it seems like a good enough idea and seems to fit well enough to do this but like proverbs says, there is a way which seems right unto man, but the end result is destruction. Let us be sure what the Lord would have us do concerning souls because they are precious to Him. I don’t think it leads people to Christ. I agree with you, it’s all God’s doing. But using these things to point to the greater reality is and can be powerful. Peter in his Pentecost sermon pointed at David’s tomb to make a point about Christ. In the same way that those people would never look at David’s tomb and come to salvation, I do not think Narnia on it’s own leads souls to Christ. However at Pentecost someone may have looked at that tomb and pondered man and his sinful state, or wondered of a resurrection from the dead, thereby giving Peter the opportunity to point to the reality of the source of those thoughts and how a person has come to redeem man and give him the hope of a resurrection, so Lewis took the reality of how people long for those things and a hero to redeem them, and a defeat of evil, bringing an end to death, etc. He made the point in a few of his books (I’d recommend “Reflections on the Psalms” to get a good idea of his thinking) that the reason people find Narnia and stories of it's type so complelling and interesting is that there is a conscience and a longing in man (given by God) for those things in the real world. Does that make sense?I’d also like to say I totally respect your position and my point is not to argue you into reading them or anything. I think it’s honorable that the only thing you read is the Bible (and the SI message board, obviously ;-)) Just wanted to bring to light that they are not something that can be called apostate or blasphemous or anything. I think they can be validated and quite easily.

Indeed, Lewis himself thought of such fiction only as a way of "crossing the Great frontier" of joy. For, a preacher by the name of George MacDonald penned several works of fiction, never realizing than he'd influence a sixteen-year-old "Jack" (Lewis) who would pick up a copy--beginning Lewis' quest for joy (which he found in Christ).Just wanted also to say that one of the first references of the Spirit's annointing in God's people was concerning divers works and crafts (Ex. 31); wouldn't it be cruel to say to a painter, "God hasn't inspired me to look on your work: therefore, I feel it quite base (or even blasphemous)"? Is it truly God or our personal positions that influences whether we like impressionism or abstract art? Classical or contemporary music? traditional or modern (I'm not referring to theology here) styles?Shouldn't we appreciate the gifts delivered unto our brethren, since we all apart of the body? Paul tells the Corithians that "...the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you" (1 Cor. 12:21), so wouldn't the vice verse (hand against the eye) be just the same?God made us whole; let's not be creating schisms.Blessings,Benjamin

bro RandiloverShe usually does surprise me!!! But I do not avoid anything with her, and we read our Fathers and Daughters Bible each night (when permissable). My point is that I am looking forward to reading them to her to get more of her involved in the Bible. I grew up with a great divide in my mind between imagination and what I guess we would call theology. It wasn't until I discovered Lewis and other that those two were thankfully bridged. I don't want that happening in my kids. I can teach a lesson much easier by invoking a word picture that trying to explain a theological truth. (Like we talked about already, Jesus used this in parables for the same reason). Much the same way we use the stories of the OT to bring NT truths to life. Think faith in David and Goliath, or reaping what you sow in Samson’s life, etc.then drawing such parallels has benefitted you in some way so as i said before, if the Lord is indeed leading you, then follow but He's not doing that with me. if the word picture method of teaching is workingf for you then use it. at the end of the day we should be sure that we are following what the Lord has placed on us, no more nor less. i can see why stories such as this would reach out to man's longing for redemption and defeat of evil in the here and now but can such examples not be found in the word that one looks so imaginative stories? :-? in truth dear brother i'm not a big big reader :-P the Lord has been leading me and keeping me in the word to a great degree of late along with a few other books He's led me to. if He does lead me to this one i shall read it. i check the forums every now and then :-P to see what's going on and what is on the hearts of believers and the Lord does teach me much on these boards. God bless you bro

oh bro Randiloverabout Melchizedek what i meant was not that He was Christ Himself but that he was a shadow of Christ. still though as it pertains to types/shadows of Christ i prefer to err on the side of staying in what scripture says are such types.God bless

Hey Randilover,We humans do posses a way of creating whole worlds in our heads do we? :-) (wheter good or bad)I do have a lively imagination too.I haven't read the 'Screwtape letters' or 'Lord Foulgrin's letters', but it seems like a nice book to read. I really enjoyed 'Edge of eternity' from Randy.Randilover wrote:I wrote already about the “magic” in Tolkein’s work, so I will not say much more other than you should read (at least a little) to get the context of how it’s used (or find a resource that explains it, there has to be a plethora of websites on the subject). It is light years different than Harry Potter, if for no other reason than it is total fiction where what Potter is made of is based (from what I’ve read) on actual modern day witchcraft practices. Also, as far as Narnia is concerned, off the top of my head, except for one part of the story, whenever magic is used, it has negative consequences.BTW, did you read Alcorn’s book, the name escapes me, of the two demon’s writing to each other. It’s based on Lewis Screwtape letters. It’s a level down from Lewis’ original, but it was an ok read.

Hey Dorcas,Isn't the Bible as visual as you picture it infront of you? :-DEver wondered what it would have looked like when David ran away from Saul with a gigantic sword strapped on his back, pretending that he was a lunatic when he got to Gat?Dorcas wrote:Well, I've just come back from seeing the film and am still musing. There are many more parallels in the words spoken by characters, and a great deal of visual stuff which is disturbing enough and not at all like the Bible.

I have to agree there. :-) Dorcas wrote:I'd say it's a completely different thing to imagine pictures to go with the words which God has allowed to be presented to us in scripture, than it is to see someone else's visualisation of a narrative. Amen to that!When I'm reading scripture, the pictures I get don't strike my physical eyes, they strike my spirit as the Lord brings them to me. Watching a film is a completely different activity.

brethrenIsn't the Bible as visual as you picture it infront of you? as the Lord leads me through scripture, the more i find that indeed scripture is very literal. when i am lead through the revelation let's say and there are these fantastic discriptions of beasts and such i realize that John really did see those things, we may not but in the Spirit realm scripture is literal.

Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and] quicken thou me in thy way.I have a question. Should a Christian meditate on things that are not real and have no way of being real?

PreachParsly wrote:Psa 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; [and] quicken thou me in thy way.I have a question. Should a Christian meditate on things that are not real and have no way of being real? Depsnds on what you mean by "no way of being real."As it relates to this topic of Narnia, I'd say yes, and it can be quite beneficial. As far as other things like a fantasy to escapre reality, no. That cna be generally a problem.

What spured that question is this quote I read today:"I have loved the Narnia books since the first time I read them because I saw the merging of a fantasy world with the story of my faith" -Senior Pastor Bob DeGray of Friendswood's Trinity Fellowship Church.What come to mind is "how good is 'fantasy?'"

PreachParsly wrote:What spured that question is this quote I read today:"I have loved the Narnia books since the first time I read them because I saw the merging of a fantasy world with the story of my faith" -Senior Pastor Bob DeGray of Friendswood's Trinity Fellowship Church.What come to mind is "how good is 'fantasy?'" I think fantasy is amoral. It's not really a good or bad thing, it is what it is used for that determines it's value.

PreacherParsly:Questions for you:All works of literature, including novels and poetry, are all by nature imaginative. Are you suggesting that Christians should refrain completely from literature? Is literature inherently evil because it involves our imagination and fantasy? What of parables (Jesus) and allegories (e.g. John Bunyan)?

Agent001 wrote:PreacherParsly:Questions for you:All works of literature, including novels and poetry, are all by nature imaginative. Are you suggesting that Christians should refrain completely from literature? NopeIs literature inherently evil because it involves our imagination and fantasy? NopeWhat of parables (Jesus) and allegories (e.g. John Bunyan)? NopeI was just submitting a question. I was just thinking of TV in general. My personal interest if/when I watch TV is something that is real or actually happened. Something like History or Nature. Dorcas brought up a very good point that wasn't on my mind when I posted. Depends whether you think the characters Jesus put in His stories were real or fictional.I'm not for or against the movie. I haven't seen it nor have I read the book. I know nothing about it.

PreacherParsly:I'm glad I asked, because I would have misunderstood your original question and motive, had I not asked.It is interesting to note that majority of the Bible is in narrative form (i.e. story), rather than in the form of modern text books.We really shouldn't get too uptight about being "for" or "against" a book/movie. Like all literature/movies, there will no doubt be the factor of personal preference. The literature/movie might be used for the glory of God, but certainly nothing except for the Bible is indispensible.

Just another thought: If we could be read like books, how many discrepancies, follies, and absurd imaginations concerning God's plan and kingdom would be found?We're still silver being refined in the fire; therefore, that means all of us have some of the old ore to be removed--including writers.Perhaps, we should be asking "Where is the person's line of thought leading?", not, "Does it line up with what I think?"Ultimately, though, let's always keep the caveat: God's Word is the final verdict concerning where we put our faith (again, something that is quite a journey).Blessings to all,Benjamin

I'm glad you asked too. I probably should have clarified my feelings. Fantasy in my mind does throw up flags. Not that imagination is bad, but when I think of fantasy I think of witches, magic, fairies and things of that sort. Something more like Pokémon.Now that I think of it I have never read a fiction book written by a Christian. I own Pilgrims Progress, but have not got the chance to read it. I do plan on it. Hmm.. that still makes me wonder how we should use our imaginations. If we are to think on whatsoever is true... Maybe I will start a thread on that. I would like to hear some thought on the matter.

On imagination:My way of seeing this would be through the threefold framework of creation, fall, and redemption.God created humans beings to include the physical and the spiritual, but also all of mental faculties such our mind, emotion, will, and imagination.God created humans in the image of himself. Does not his own wonderful creation demonstrate to us God's creative impulse? Is not the greatest artist God himself?Man fell and along with it we became slaves to sin and death. Not only are we dying physically but we are dead spiritually. That would include all of faculties, mind, emotion, will, imagination, etc. We distorted the good gifts of God by thinking evil thoughts, loving evil things, choosing evil, imagining evil schemes, etc.But God redeemed us. Spiritually, we are regenerated and so we restore our fellowship with God. Physically, we have the hope of receiving a resurrection body far beyond our imagination. But we should also sanctify and let God's redemption pervade in our mind, emotion, will, and imagination.When I listen to Handel's music, appreciate Michelangelo's art, read Tolstoy, CS Lewis, and other writers, it feels wonderful knowing they are trying to glorify God by their redeemed minds.

clownstruth wrote:In regards to sharing the Gospel, there are some very spicific things that have to be addressed that "commercialised evangelism" tries to avoid sometimes. How do these movies press people to consider their sin, show a need to repent, or even glorify Christ?I heard someone say once that a movie like Lord of the Rings has as much in it to deceive a person as to open them up to Christ: One of the good guys is a wizard (witchcraft is Biblically forbidden), not to mention that it is about as packed as it could be with mere stories. Is it possible, that while the storyline is loosely taken to represent spiritual warfare, that it's meant to be just entertainment, nothing more?I have a hard time, when the only tool many of our evangelists are using is a movie, and then trying to explain how that movie is tied into truth.clownstruth,I think you're probably more right than you realize. I heard David Wilkerson say, "It's a sad day when God needs to use a movie (referring to the Passion) to reach the lost because Christians won't." (my paraphrase)There's a children's video called "Kingdom Under the Sea" and it is an allegory of Jesus (a whale) who gives his life for the reef fish.Now, as an adult and a student of the Word, I could see and understand the parallels, however, my 2 year old has NO clue who Jesus is (he's too young right now), much less what an allegory is!My point being, where in the Word of God is it EVER hinted at that we are to cloak the Gospel in allegorical terminology and imagery. I suppose you could say the same of the book of Revelation, but I really fail to see an accurate comparison. One is the Word of God inspired by the Spirit while the other is the word of man!Although these films may "open doors", the argument can be made that so does the Gospel itself when it is used in its proper context. When we preach the Word as the early church did the possibility of 3,000 being added in one day excites me more than waiting for a movie to come out so that I would have something I can relate maybe a handlful of sinners to.Nonetheless, this is the modern method of evangelsim. In my church, they use Christian rock and Christian comedy to reach the lost. Rather than the Christian going out into all the world (though they do missionize), the sinners are brought into a non-confrontational environment. Quite the opposite of scripture isn't it? The reason most often given is that the sinner would not normally GO to church. My response, as I'm sure most biblically-based Christians would agree, is that OF COURSE a sinner wouldn't go to a church! Why would he? To be shown the sinfulness of his heart?As Ray Comfort puts it: "A sinner no more would want to go to a church than a criminal would want to go to a jail."Using a movie to reach the lost shows the sign of the times and the condition of the church. As Jesus said: "When I return, will I find faith on the earth?"

I believe that imagination is a very important thing as long as it doesn't lead us to temptation. Imagination could also spur us on to being used by God. I believe that God gave us an imagination to be used by Him.How we as Christians see worldly things as tools is a touchy situation. Some think that it is Christians who need to bring or lead people to the Lord. I believe that it's the Holy Spirit using a humble believer to draw people to the Father through the Son. I don't believe we should be seeking after tools so as we should get a notch in our belts for taking someone through religious motions. Helping someone follow Christ is rewarding when we see the Spirit renewing their mind and them repenting of their carnality. I haven't seen the movie yet, but my kids did and they said Santa Clause was in the movie. Now I realize Santa being fictional is part of that imagination that people have been referring to. However, I was wondering when people who say they use these type of movies as a tool, how do they relate the reality of Christ in with the fiction of Santa?

Onfire wrote:I haven't seen the movie yet, but my kids did and they said Santa Clause was in the movie. Now I realize Santa being fictional is part of that imagination that people have been referring to. However, I was wondering when people who say they use these type of movies as a tool, how do they relate the reality of Christ in with the fiction of Santa? Wait a second, you don't believe Santa is real?!? :-P It's kind of a non-issue. The movie is reflective of a greater truth, or a true truth as Fracis Schaeffer put it. It's not an evangelical tool, but if someone uses it to draw a parallel about something that is true, then it is being used wisely. If you just walk into a theater and sit down for entertainment, that's what you are going to get. There is no credit that roles at the end stating: "Jesus as Aslan the Lion." That's not the point. But I think probably more than anything, Lewis was just having some fun with a targeted audience that probably still believed in a Santa. He plays pivotal role in the story.

Randi ~> Good points and I agree that Lewis was making a statement to his audience. From the way it sounds the Father Christmas charachter changed a bit in the movie. I wonder if it wasn't consumer friendly at this time of the year for Santa to be passing out weapons to children.

Just some thoughts:In the original movie Santa hands out something magical, I forget the extact situation, but at that moment I saw something evil in this movie. I have read one book of Lewis and I sensed something not right about his thougths. It was enough to stop me from reading anything else of his. Thirdly, concerning literature. A.W.Tozer use to read Shakespeare on his knees. He said that this testimony may cause some to think he was crazy or something along those lines. He believed Shakespeare's wisdom was God given. Literature that is of the world, gives us insights into the minds of lost men. This is in itself a way to understand the many devices Satan uses to disseminate the lie. We are given examples of the hope and motivations that bring futility to those who seek to be satisfied by these hopes.In ChristJeff

Very interesting Jeff. I never knew that about Tozer.We are suppossed to be spiritually discerning not bow down to every wind of doctrine.

tpique1, Well said...Nonetheless, this is the modern method of evangelsim. In my church, they use Christian rock and Christian comedy to reach the lost. Rather than the Christian going out into all the world (though they do missionize), the sinners are brought into a non-confrontational environment. Quite the opposite of scripture isn't it? The reason most often given is that the sinner would not normally GO to church.