Brownsville Revival - the Simple Truth?

Okay, I don't really know that much about the Brownville Revival, but here's what I've heard, and I wanted to know if I've heard correctly:-Steven Hill was greatly associated with it, but someone told me that he saw Mr. Hill being blown down by Benny Hinn on stage, which makes me question him.-Many reports of miracles and other signs, some which are commonly associated with historic revivals, but many are largely associated with Assemblies of God and other high-charismatic churches.-Brownsville desired for people to come and experience the revival and then return to their churches and carry the revival fire there. But many pastors resisted such infultration because it often was done without their involvement or blessing.-Brownsville is a spin-off of the Toronto occurance (the name of the church had Airport in it title), and many claim its more a manipulative method that produces reactions but not a real move of God that's a result of holy men and women waiting upon the Lord.-That Brownsville pastors have harshly rebuked and falsely prophesized against their critics (most of whom are only doing their job of examining them carefully against the Bible.)Any clarity would be appreaciated. :-)

Glad to help, First i suppose i show why i believe what i do:I had been to the Brownsvile revival 4 times and i've heard probably 50 sermons from the revival. I was radically saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and sent on fire for Jesus through the effects of the revival. I was infused with a passion for prayer holiness and evangelism through the revival. Sooo... all i have to say is this: Go to Steve Hills website and listen to his sermon under the banner "A warning to ministers worldwide".http://www.heartlandfamily.com/then listen to a few of his archive sermons from the revival here:http://www.brownsvillechurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=1&id=20&Itemid=33Remember dear brother...it's easy to criticize it's harder to evangelize! Those who have no fruit simply declare the good fruit of those who do have fruit to be "false". I have also read many of the so called "discernment ministries" websites and they are notorious for twisting out of context and misinterpreting anything and everything people say... just like the Pharasiess who were trying to "protect" Israel from Jesus. or as the old saying goes: "Who's watching the watchmen?"CLear all the junk you have been told out of your mind and simply listen with an open heart and mind to what these men have to say. 1 John teaches that you have NO NEED for any man to teach you what is truth and what is a lie/ counterfit. The annointing of Jesus within you cannot be decieved, trust HIm!"If [your child] asks for bread will you give him a stone? If he asks for a fish will you give him a serpent?If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will My Father give the Holy Spirt to those who ask Him" Do you trust the Father or not?Listen to them yourself! He will show you.and remember perfection and apostasy are entirely different matters!

Good points Tackle!I've heard of some of these.Another point is that we have been warned in scripture not to seek after signs and wonders.

Tacklebox,Steven Hill was greatly associated with it, but someone told me that he saw Mr. Hill being blown down by Benny Hinn on stage, which makes me question him. Both of these guys are asociated with the AoG. I don't know when this would have happened but if it happened before Benny gave up his AoG credentials Steven Hill might have caught flak for it if he didn't let Benny speak. The thing with Benny is that you can't speek to hard against him in any Pentecostal circles or you will get flak for it. Happens to me alot. Steven Hill has also wrote a book I have though -- Time for Tears -- in which he chronicles the need to weep for revival. I think in all this a timeline would be helpful -- which I don't really know. It seems ot me this is one that started well -- but didn't end well. The whole Brownsville thing strikes me as something that started out well -- people we getting converted off the streets, Christians getting serious and lots of prayer. Then something happened and here is what I think it was: Like all things now in Religion,Inc. these days -- someone found something from it to sell -- music in particualar. Money entered and real revival wained. It is a pity too because then you have to bring in personalities to sustain something that had no personality at the beginning but the person of the Holy Spirit. This is the challenge to any revival -- how long is it going to take before flesh stops or deminishes it? The thing is based on Ravenhill's description of revival Brownsville is only truly a local one, not any farther. Now a corrupted one at best. Too bad too. Blessings.

I have done some looking into this "revival", including watching a video by Joseph Chambers exposing some of the heretical practices (with plenty of video clips) going on at Brownsville and others.This is not meant to be divisive - just an arrival at TRUTH. The truth is this so-called "revival" is a perversion. There are NO Biblical references to the types of "manifestations" of the Spirit that I saw in the video. It sickened me. It's like there's this philosophy that the stranger it is, the more likely it's from God because man puts such limits on things. Now I agree that we limit God's influence in our own lives, but to throw out any kind of disciple or order (which is mentioned in the Bible) is heresy.People try to justify this "revival" the same way Mormons and JW's justify their views - and ends-justifies-the-means approach, claiming that thousands got "saved" and many more got filled with the Spirit or caught revival fire. If Noah's preaching were to be evaluated by such measures, then he'd be a failure, and so would Jeremiah. Results can be deceiving.I am no more willing to trust in statisical results as a measure of success than I am by emotions, for both can be deceiving.I have never been to Brownsville, nor do I ever want to go. I don't have to go to hell to know it's a bad place.One tell-tell sign that something's a fake is people can't defend it well enough so they turn the tables and make the one doing the criticism look bad. I merely stated some things I had heard about Brownsville (which all I have learned are true) and SJ, though well-intentioned, starts to bash those doing the criticism more than dealing with the TRUTH, claiming there ministries to be fruitless without real knowledge of such. And by the way, I do actively evangelize and desire everyday to worship God in Spirit......but also in TRUTH.Unless someone can refute the heresies that Brownsville practices, I will NOT even come close to considering this a revival. In fact, the minute we start calling this circus act a revival, we cheapen the name and devalue everything Ravenhill, Whitfield, Wesley, Tozer, Campbell, & Edwards did.I cannot believe how many people have been so desperate for revival that they are following in the path of Esau and selling the name of revival for what equals a pot of beans!!!

Umm yeah...you watched a video that was edited and put together by people who most likely 1.I'm sure SOLD it at a pretty good price2. Reject the baptism and gifts of the Spirit anyway and all supernatural manifestations thereof. (show me scripture for that!)and you believed them and decided it was "fake"...you show a remarkable ignorance of the supernatural manifestations that accompanied past revivals as well as Jesus own ministry.You forget that God still uses the "foolish" things to confound the "wise". Thats Scripture. It's Gods way.The prostitutes and sinners embraced it but you Mr. Pious know it all self appointed keeper of the kingdom reject it. When you're done using the Keyes of the Kingdom why dont you let Jesus borrow them for a while? When you're done with that why dont you put down your eraser and give God back the Book of Life to ask His opnion about all those people who just blotted out?I'm sure you are the "real elect" right?Or does your favorite discernment minister have a book about who is the real elect? I'm sure they are selling one! "Discernment ministries" are leeches. They do next to nothing but profit from bashing others. And you are an utter and total Hypocrite for Judging something that you didnt even take the time to check out first hand and still refuse to.Or does your pastor have to interpret and edit your Bible for you also? You know JW's and Mormans use Bibles too why dont we just throw those out?Find me a move of God that didnt anger leaders that were already established.You discredit the salvations and the healings if you want too the Pharasiees did the same to Jesus.By the way, Ravenhill endorsed Steve hill and Mike Brown and the revival started a few months after he died, what do you think of that? Is Ravenhill now a false prophet? You dont enter in yourself and not content with that you want to block the way for those who do! Phrasiee 101.You didnt save me friend, Jesus did. I know it might come a serious shock to you but He didnt ask your permission before He did it or your pastors permission either. Your willingness to go on second hand stories and edited videotapes shows you have NO LOVE FOR THE TRUTH. Your a gossip and a slander and Jesus would probably call you a viper. Your decived and you persectue Gods people thinking you are doing Him a service!Congratulations, You act just like your father the accusor of the breathern. I have news for you the Great White Throne of Judgment already had somebody sitting in it and His name is Jesus.I suggest you get your facts straight before you get there.

Though not an expert on it, I personally believe the Brownsville Revival to have been from God, but like any revival in history, ended up going a bit sour. I have personally seen much good fruit and have benefited from the fruit of that revival. But I have also seen some stuff that was not so good. If you want to hear some good fruit, simply listen to the testimonies on the "FREEEDOM CD"... every single one of them is from the Brownsville Revival. I've likewise, seen fruit from that CD as well. And likewise, you can find some trash out there as well. I'm sure there are many web sites that will be more than happy to supply you with such too. They did that in the first and second great awakenings as well.

If Brownsville is a typical revival, then I don't want revival. I don't think Ravenhill would either.

I have personally seen the fruit of the Toronto "blessing", i.e. churches being torn apart, widespread adultery, etc. etc. Ask yourself this, WHY would God want people to cluck like chickens, hiss like snakes, roar like lions and all the rest of it? Does it glorify Him? I strongly suggest that everyone that supports this kind of thing listen to David Wilkerson's sermon entitled "The Reproach Of The Solemn Assembly".

Toronto, Brownsville. What is the use of criticizing, and speaking against? Why not bring a revival ourselves by seeking God in prayer and fasting until He answers and pours down His blessing. The devil has got us christians so busy critizicing and fighting one another that that is all we do! Meanwhile our churches are void of God's glory and presence, full of human agendas and methods, and the lost are perishing, wondering and moking our weak and frail christianity. Jesus didn't criticize, He demonstrated the Father's will with grace, wisdom and power. It is so easy to speak for or against, it is simply so easy to talk. Any one can do it. But can we modern Christians demonstrate the Father's will like Jesus and the apostles did? Can we live in the demonstration of holiness, wisdom, power, zeal that is supposed to mark the lives of those filled with the Holy Spirit? If it doesn't, what are we filled with? What is lacking? We have plenty of words, and teachings and criticisms but no power at all. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power, power to destroy the works of the devil in every single area of its influence, power to destroy the grip of sin over humanity, over God's children, and its consequences in their lives, not only for this life, but for eternity. Stop arguing, stop critizing and look deep into your lives. Meditate deeply, because he who claims to know Jesus must walk as He walked, in every area of life. It is not only possible, it is a direct commandment from the Lord! Be Holy as I am Holy. We must repent and come to Jesus for cleansing, for wisdom, for transformation, for power and direction to do His will. Arguing and criticizing will never do anything. Only Jesus in us, through the power of the Holy Spirit can bring truth to conquer the lies which entangle us and make us so weak and defeated. Much prayer and fasting, much seeking His face is the only answer.

I simply say this: Toronto I have heard more negative than good a times and even they have a few splinter groups that have broken away from what is gonig on their because of the abuses. They are trying to get back to the origianl purpsoe of the 'revival' Brownsville did indeed start with repentence and a desire for God -- but as with all spiritual things can be perverted. Is it a revial now? -- no. But it was one in the beginning. There are plenty of testamonies of genuine salvations from its early days to see that. Revivals are indeed more about moral climate and ethics than manifestations, but manifestations are a part of them. Ravenhill was very much for the spiritual gifts in balance with spiritual fruit. Wesley too saw strange things happen in his revials -- he neither endorsed nor condemned them. As an orthidox Pentecostal I have on the one hand to say that God does mighty things and supernatural ones in revival, on the other hand excesses can take away from the true meaning of revial as well. Revival is on the one hand very easy -- what we need ot do is ever before us. On the other hand it is very difficult to keep -- spiritual egotism will kill it in an instant. Blessings.

Indeed, some of these sites on the net are already anti-Pentecostal from the get go. They won't tell you straight up that they are judging certain revivals to be false simply because the revival was Pentecostal. If they were fair, they would probably have judged the first two Great Awakenings with the likes of Edwards, Whitefield, the Wesley's, Finney, etc., as false. After all, there were reports of people shaking, falling to the ground (and sometimes from trees!), showing great emotion, barking like dogs, etc. Not to say I endorse all such things, but, these and much other stranger manifestations were present in these great revivals of the past as well. Interesting humorous side note that a my Christian history professor, Dr Rosell mentioned once in class about one of these revivals: Once a man was seen on all fours at the foot of a tree barking like a dog. Another man approached him and said, "In God's name, what are you doing?" And the man replied, "I'm chasing the devil up a tree!" Then he went back to barking.(btw, I do not personally endorse animal sound manifestations, unless of course it is as some dramatic/prophetic act of some sort that is trying to convey an actual message behind it)

Neilgin1 wrote:yet another thread from a new member in "search of the truth".....yet preforementioned new member already has an opinion on what he's asking about, an opinion set firmly in the cement of his "conviction"..........I've seen this before on this website, and the common denominator is thus:1. they are ususally KJV only adherents,and...2. They are usually anti-pentecostal.I am NOT an apologist for Brownsville, but my feeling is that if folks who were formerly lost and were brought into a life saving encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ at Brownsville, then Praise God.........all else is white noise and the palaber of religionist's with too much time on their hands.Your assumptions are false. I am NOT KJV-only, and I am not anti-pentecostal. I have a Calvary Chapel background, but I am in the process of being a leader of a new church that is trans-denominational.I may be "new" to these boards, but I have pulled my time in the trenches and not just in front of a computer.The problem with Brownsville and Toronto is that people keep saying, "Well, IF people are getting saved, then I don't think we should say anything against it." Did you notice the "IF?" That's my whole problem with this - IF there are literally thousands and ten thousands being saved, then why is this country still unmoved and unchanged? If every revival is destinied to morph into a perversion, why seek it? God is looking for eternal dwelling because He is eternal. Yes, human kind has its sorry history of revival in one generation and quenching the next, but if technology can improve with every generation, why can't revival!? C'mon!

Fabian wrote:Toronto, Brownsville. What is the use of criticizing, and speaking against?The apostle John spent a great part of 1 John warning against false doctrine. Is he, under divine inspiration, in err?Why not bring a revival ourselves by seeking God in prayer and fasting until He answers and pours down His blessing.Now that's something we both agree on!The devil has got us christians so busy critizicing and fighting one another that that is all we do!Don't mistake selfish quarrelling with righteous discernment. I do agree that the latter can be given TOO much focus, though I am growing tired of people claiming there is too much of it when there really is quite a lack of it, in the true sense and application.Meanwhile our churches are void of God's glory and presence, full of human agendas and methods, and the lost are perishing, wondering and moking our weak and frail christianity.Well, if we don't speak out against such, won't it just continue? It's the same with the lost, you can let your little light shine, but Paul wants to know how they will hear without a preacher. Jesus didn't criticize, He demonstrated the Father's will with grace, wisdom and power.Jesus didn't what? I do believe that His harshest words were reserved for those who perverted religion, not the tax collectors and prostitutes. As Ravenhill said, "If Jesus were to return today, He wouldn't cleanse the Temple, He'd cleanse the pulpit!" Too many heresies are emanating from the pulpit, though I shouldn't be shocked because the Bible tells us it will only get worse. I don't think Christ wants us to just sit by and let prophesy be fulfilled, though. I think He wants to see His people fight heresies to the end.It is so easy to speak for or against, it is simply so easy to talk. Any one can do it. But can we modern Christians demonstrate the Father's will like Jesus and the apostles did? Can we live in the demonstration of holiness, wisdom, power, zeal that is supposed to mark the lives of those filled with the Holy Spirit? If it doesn't, what are we filled with? What is lacking? We have plenty of words, and teachings and criticisms but no power at all. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power, power to destroy the works of the devil in every single area of its influence, power to destroy the grip of sin over humanity, over God's children, and its consequences in their lives, not only for this life, but for eternity.The Greek word for power when it applies to the Spirit in the NT simply means "ability to do." Brownsville and Toronto claim that the Spirit is manifesting itself in odd forms, but these "powers" given don't give an ability to do - they only create chaos and confusion. Healing was definitely a part of the apostles' ministry, but it is not to be exhalted and paraded like Benny Hinn and company do. These guys throw in a gospel message in an attempt to provide security from scrutiny, and they always defend themselves talking about how many "got saved", yet they seem to convert more checking accounts than they do souls in their wake! Stop arguing, stop critizing and look deep into your lives. Meditate deeply, because he who claims to know Jesus must walk as He walked, in every area of life.Again, the tables are always turned to cover-up the real issue. No one is willing to stand and give a truthful defense anymore. Everyone seems to know Matthew 7:1 but fails to read the next four verses or apply John 7:24 with it. Believe me, I am looking deeper within myself daily and desiring with tears and repentance to be more like Christ. But doing so only cause more holy anger against such heresies. They are turning houses of prayer into buildings of perversion. It is not only possible, it is a direct commandment from the Lord! Be Holy as I am Holy. We must repent and come to Jesus for cleansing, for wisdom, for transformation, for power and direction to do His will. Amen!Arguing and criticizing will never do anything.Again, there is a difference between vain arguements and righteous rebuke:"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." -2 Tim. 2:23"Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." 1 Tim. 5:20"This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith." -Titus 1:13Only Jesus in us, through the power of the Holy Spirit can bring truth to conquer the lies which entangle us and make us so weak and defeated. Much prayer and fasting, much seeking His face is the only answer.Jesse Morrel once said, "Evangelism without prayer is stupidity, but prayer without evangelism is hypocrisy." If you think of evangelism as one of the many facets of service to the Lord, then you can include all those in there along with evangelism. I firmly believe that the church should stand for righteousness and speak out boldly against heresy. We should "Make every effort to live in peace with all men", but that should not be more important than the latter part of that verse, "...and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." If we allow others to stand up in the name of our Lord and greatly pervert and devalue His work, we are allowing it to spread into the minds and hearts of our neighbors, and Christ commanded us to LOVE our neighbors like we love ourselves. If you love your neighbor, you'll warn him about more than hell.I am not trying to ridicule or embarass anyone - I really do want to stand for truth on this one.

I'm wondering, why in the world do Brownsville and Toronto automatically get grouped together? They are not one in the same. Each has it's own issues, and they need to be examined separately. Guilt is not through mere association.

There are connections, though Toronto seems to have gone further, probably because they started first.You know, I can understand how congregations can get out of hand after revival breaks out, but what I cannot excuse is why a pastor like John Kilpatrick (Brownsville) can start a "revival" but then turn to practicing and encouraging heresy.Here's Kilpatrick's own words concerning the revival:"Even though there is a revival going on here of great magnitude that is touching the world, it is being pastored and led by human beings that are flawed."This is from a letter of apology that Kilpatrick issued to Hank Hanegraaff after prophesying against him, that his ministry would topple in 90 days (which never happened.) Kilpatick tried to squirm out of saying it was a prophesy, and it's good that he did, for the Bible condemns him to death for giving a false one. This is the whole problem - God's name and His "power" are being thrown around and cheapened. His name isn't being magnified but simplified - into an experience and mass hysterics.Maybe I haven't read enough, but I cannot find anywhere in the great revivals of the past examples of the antics that have occurred at Toronto and Brownsville - not as a mass practice. I've heard strange accounts, many of which I question due to them having no Biblical basis, but the men of revival I respect the most - I have never read where they spoke of such things in a positive light, associating these practices with the genuine revival of the people.-Chris

Toronto, Brownsville. What is the use of criticizing, and speaking against? Why not bring a revival ourselves by seeking God in prayer and fasting until He answers and pours down His blessing. The devil has got us christians so busy critizicing and fighting one another that that is all we do! Meanwhile our churches are void of God's glory and presence, full of human agendas and methods, and the lost are perishing, wondering and moking our weak and frail christianity. Jesus didn't criticize, He demonstrated the Father's will with grace, wisdom and power. It is so easy to speak for or against, it is simply so easy to talk. Any one can do it. But can we modern Christians demonstrate the Father's will like Jesus and the apostles did? Can we live in the demonstration of holiness, wisdom, power, zeal that is supposed to mark the lives of those filled with the Holy Spirit? If it doesn't, what are we filled with? What is lacking? We have plenty of words, and teachings and criticisms but no power at all. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power, power to destroy the works of the devil in every single area of its influence, power to destroy the grip of sin over humanity, over God's children, and its consequences in their lives, not only for this life, but for eternity. Stop arguing, stop critizing and look deep into your lives. Meditate deeply, because he who claims to know Jesus must walk as He walked, in every area of life. It is not only possible, it is a direct commandment from the Lord! Be Holy as I am Holy. We must repent and come to Jesus for cleansing, for wisdom, for transformation, for power and direction to do His will. Arguing and criticizing will never do anything. Only Jesus in us, through the power of the Holy Spirit can bring truth to conquer the lies which entangle us and make us so weak and defeated. Much prayer and fasting, much seeking His face is the only answer.Welcome to SI Fabian and thank you for your clear and insightful comments. I hope you will continue here among us.In Christ,Ron

Stop arguing, stop critizing and look deep into your livesWhat is the use of criticizing, and speaking against?Hi Fabian and welcome!Liked what you had to say primarily as it is true, to an extent... Hate to be the thorn here but, the clips quoted can't be just brushed aside that easily. There is every good reason to address that which needs to be addressed. Granted criticizing for the sheer sake of criticism is a great problem, but we are not to just stick our heads in the sand either, not when there are ramifications to deal with. The scriptures are also replete with this as you would likely know.Jesus didn't criticizeSure He did. What was he doing to the Scribes and Pharisees? Not to mention the mentions of lack of faith, slow to hear and much more towards His disciples. Sure it was in demonstration if you like and there is for sure no higher criticism in the land, nor will there ever be. But criticism nonetheless.It is always refreshing to hear from those that were there, as opposed to second hand accounts. That in and of itself is not to dismiss everything else but, as Ravenhill put it, "A man with an experience is not at the mercy to the man with an argument" (Paraphrased)Also, just another opportunity for everyone to try out the search engine here. There has been a few previous discussions here on this particular topic.

The more I read on this forum, the deeper I understand why John wanted to be on the other side of the Jordan, or why the Lord Jesus sought the solitary places to commune with the God Most High.Don't bite that hand that feeds... it will make the typing all the more difficult ;-) :-P

Toronto - NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!NO!But,Their is much good fruit that came out of Brownsville, such asFREEDOM CD! hear the gospel - this fruit is permantly tacked as the first thread when you go to the lounge section of this forum. Listen to these and see what you think.* Dr. Michael Brown* Bob Gladstone* Steve HillThis is the good, I'm sure their is bad also - of that I'm not sure. I'm not an expert on the revival.

Why is it that when I listen to some of the points that most {Discernment Ministries} speak about I often am in agreement with but, sense in my spirit that there is something radically wrong with the Discernment Ministry I'm listening to or reading? You can be a tale bearer and be telling the truth. You can dissemble with the lips and be telling the truth. You can slander and be telling the truth. Talebearing, dissembling with lips, and slander are of not of the Lord.One time a few years ago, I was at a chapel and a believer was telling about the churches in his area. He told all kind of things that were going wrong. Everything he said I was in agreement with as far as it being wrong. Right after he left the chaplain said to me that that person who was complaining and finding fault needed Jesus in his life. As soon as I heard this I knew it was true. The man doing the complaining was needing to repent of the words that were coming out of his mouth. His real problem wasn't these other churches. It was his own heart.Be very careful when you read or hear the message that discernment ministries speak. Most of what they speak is as bad or worse than the poison they are supposing to be uncovering. Obviously unscriptural behavior is not near as dangerous as the words these wells without water speak, because the leaven these people speak is hidden instead of being out in the open. Their message is self-righteous and lacks any word of love. These snakes divide the breathren and never cover a multitude of sin with love, but instead reveal everything. They rightly ridicule the prosperity message while they themselves live that way themselves.If I don't watch myself I accept some of their speach and am in danger of becoming a two fold child of hell that they are, not having a Christ likeness but instead a critical spirit towards everyone that doesn't believe exactly the way I do.In Christ,GaryE

So some good comes from it, and some people got saved, and some were brought closer to God. As Ravenhill likes to put it - SO WHAT!?That doesn't make it a legitimate revival nor does it make it bulletproof to Biblical scrutiny.The facts are still not being addressed. Throwing a blanket of "some good" over it doesn't cleanse it anymore than the unregenerate will stand clean before God with a few good works.I think the overall impact of Brownsville has done more to damage the Kingdom of God than to further it.Eve saw that the fruit was good, and I don't think she was deceived in that. It did appear to be pleasant and she actually thought some spiritual power would be gained from eating it. But in the end, the result wasn't being equal with God but separated from Him.I stand on the words of Christ:"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." -Matt. 7:18There is such a stench coming from this "revival" that I make no apologies for not being able to smell the perfume.

Brother Christopher,The same scriptures that you may use to defend your position against the Brownsville revival are often the same I would use when looking at the tare pulling discernment ministries. A good example is the verse Math. 7:18 that you used in your last post. Just what kind of fruit comes out of these discernment ministries? I think the words of these discernment ministries do more to damage the Kingdom Of God than to further it. That fruit Eve was looking at was a discernment ministry to me. Discernment ministries are almost always: {no spirit, no power, no meat}, only precept for precept, line for line that they may go and fall backwards. Drunken priests who do a lot of bible but are spiritually ignorant who err at their tables of vomit. Babies, not weaned from milk................................................Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken................................................When God speaks with stammering lips and another tonge about the rest, these discernment ministries will not hear, but go about with their precepts upon precepts, line upon line. These lines and precepts are all from the bible yet when they hear a real Word from God they reject that Word and say it isn't for today.Christopher, please don't take what I've written here to be personal towards you. I don't think this of you and in agreement with most of what you have said in your posts. Animal sounds, bar room laughter, jerking, gold dust, feathers, etc. are an offense to me also and there are fakes. At the same time, it is easy for me to see why many others have written what they have written.In Christ,GaryE

Tacklebox,I understand how you feel about this "Brownsville" thing, and I don't consider our current understandings of the issue to be a dividing or salvation issue. We are still brothers in Christ no matter what our current understanding is or isn't. With that being said, I would like to ask you if you have listened to the FREEDOM CD recording that have been deemed important and relevant by this site? What do you think of them? And lastly, do you think a good tree can bring forth good fruit and then become corrupt through the workings and corruption of man and then be cut down and cast into the fire? I think this is most likely what happened at Brownsville. The good fruit remains but the tree having become corrupt is gone, cut down and tossed into the fire. If this is the case - we should praise God for the good fruit - praise God for cutting down that which had become corrupt - concentrate on the good fruit and be thankful that the corruption is gone. This same thing may very well happen to other ministries we have come to respect at this point - in the near future things may change drastically and corruption may be exposed through the grace and judgment of God.GaryE,I also understand where you stand as far as so called discernment ministries. Even though I understand, I only agree with some but not all of what you are saying. Here is a post I made on another forum regarding the subject of discernment ministries. What do you think?"One of the best ways to stand up against a false teacher and reach out to the deceived who follow him/her is to preach the true gospel. In this way the deceived are evangelized and the false teachers or wolves are put to public shame. There is no better way to expose error, deception and false teaching and no better way to kill a wolf or at least send him/her running for the hills then will the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the full council of God! I also have some problems with most so called "discernment ministries" (not all but most - some are actually very good). Most focus exclusively on the negative, which is out of balance. Although we must expose false teachings and the wolves of our day we can't spend all of our time focusing on the negative and what is wrong - thus ignoring the truth. The best way to expose darkness is to shine a light into it. You want send the rats and roaches running for dear life just flick on the light. You want to fire a fatal shot at a wolf - hit him over the head with the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the full council of God - look at how Jeremiah, Isaiah and John the Baptist did it. Wolves hate the light and false teachers hate the Truth. God knows what is going on and He will take care of it. But God uses men and women who are willing to serve him at all cost to take care of these thing and bring the truth to people who are in deception and bondage. God always has and always will use men and women who are sold out in this way to do His bidding. So, I would ask God first of all to help us get to the point were we are emptied and dead that he may use us in such a manner. And secondly that He would guide us on how, where and what He would have us do, so that we are operating not of our own flesh, but of the perfect will of God and His Spirit living in us. No one should run off half cocked, dripping in flesh, kicking down doors of churches and ranting like a maniac in order to expose false teachers. But God is and will raise up people who are dripping in humility and love to speak some of the harshest words and strongest messages against what we see going on today, while at the same time preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Pray that God will raise you up as a Holy, meek and righteous warrior of the Truth in Love! Mat be Andrew would like to shed some light on this, but this is similar to what I think he means when he speaks of a "John the Baptist movement". There can and will be no "John the Baptist movement" if God does not raise up John the Baptists who are deeply concerned with the things they see happening today. Burning men in the desert on fire for God!"

I have just finished Azusa Street by Frank Bartleman; in the book, he describes how Satan attacks all true revivals with fakers, crooks, etc. He also WARNS it is necessary to trust in God and not even let a negative thought pass towards those who are enemies of the faith. The reason, the Holy Spirit is as gentle as a dove and is easily quenched and God is able to protect His Work.Never judge a revival UNLESS YOU ARE THERE, you can not trust many newspapers or TV news to be favorable after all who do they serve? God only needs faith on our part. Read Azusa Street and start a revival right where you are, but beware it is a hard battle to fight, Satan hates revival and will use even your closes relatives and friends to urge you to give up on this crazy pursuit of God. However, what does the bible say? About the wise becoming fools and God, using the simple to expand His kingdom? After all the Greatest writer in the Bible could be Paul, the best educated, connected, great reputation with the powers that be, he had it all right? He considered it all garbage compared to knowing Jesus Christ.

David was a man who danced befored the Lord.

Try plugging the word "Brownsville" or "Toronto" into the search engine on the main page.

Tackle ~> You seem to be really getting it for sharing your thoughts. Not one congregation should be dismissed in regarding discerning their doctrines etc. "Well, IF people are getting saved, then I don't think we should say anything against it." You're correct in this comment that you made. No one can assume that people are getting saved just because they go through the doctrinal rituals of any particular congregation. You will find the same thing in your trans-denominational group. Unless you are walking closely with people you cannot see the personal revival that is going on in their life. God is more concerned with that personal revival than a mass histeria or even a solemn gathering. We become individual temples that are built up to house His Spirit. Those who are in well behaved congregations could be very easily ignored because they have the act well rehearsed. If people show up once or twice a week and behave a certain way it's very easy to assume they are saved and on the right track. I agree with cross check as well and I believe there is something very important about what Christ wanted to demonstrated by wanting to be in a solitary place with God. Something that many who call themselves Christians have missed because they are too busy trying to experience God corporately. Solemn, well behaved congregations could be just as much at risk as the hyper emotional ones. But we might over look and make assumptions about the problems in the well behaved ones

Tacklebox,You like Ravenhill and the other revivalists because they are dead: Luke 11:47 47"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs."You like past revivals because they are over and you can sanitize them and make them the ideal you are looking for. Human nature does not change, Brownsville and every other revival ended because men failed not God. They ran themselves ragged and made some bad mistakes because of it. How would you like for everything you said to be recorded over the span of 10 years when you work 7 days a week while constant hostility is being railed at you...you think you might get caught saying something stupid or even say something that can be interpreted wrong by people looking for something wrong in the first plave?I know I would, therefore I use a merciful (though not blind) measure when judging them. I suggest you do the same if you want mercy. If not continue on the path you are on but you will find a hard road to trow. I see the mistakes but i honor the men for the victories and learn from the mistakes. Not deny and belittle their victories and magnify their mistakes. Also, if you only ever spoke to half the people that knew Jesus in his day you would have a pretty bad opinion of Him too. Selah.

Again, my intent is not to use this forum as a soapbox to bash Brownsville. I have had personal contact with one individual who went there, and he did say some positive things, but everything I have seen outside of people giving vaugue descriptions has been heresy - frantic dancing, people passing out left and right (not in the historical revival sense - all that I've read about people passing out in the great revivals was not due to being "slain in the Spirit" but coming under such heavy conviciton of sin and contemplating hell.), animal sounds, etc.The greatest weapon that revivalist have used that is all but absent from Brownsville and other "revivals" is the use of the Law and preaching on the holiness of God. I have heard that Steve Hill is focusing more on this now, but as far as John Kilpatrick and others, I haven't seen anything of the like. They may be preaching it, but not like Finney.Finney would go into a town, preach Law, holiness, and judgment for 29 days and then preach grace and forgiveness on the 30th, and he was always preceeded by his prayer warriors.Pentecost is a good example of immediate results, but few outpourings of God have happened like that without men and women waiting upon the Lord like they did in the upper room.I have listened to a few excerpts from the FREEDOM CD, but I have to say the testimonies I've heard don't really impress me. They seem to be yet more results of a man-centered gospel. I will give the entire thing a listen. I don't presume to be a judge of salvation, for that is Christ's job alone, but we have to admit that today's christianity is not working, and I think it's not because we don't do enough discipleship or don't have enough of this or that...I think it's a lack of true conversions. There are too many dogs returning to their vomit.I am not making assumptions on Brownsville - I am trying to make a legitimate decision based on info I am given. The thing that bothers me the most is the sickening feeling that transcends emotion - I really think it's the discernment of the Holy Spirit.

If you want to know what they preached during the revival...listen to the online archives and I'm sure, if you are willing to be wrong, you will see that you have been. I have heard many many sermons from revival and let me tell you,you dont ever listen to one for entertainment!!Brother your facts are SO wrong, for example Steve Hill hasnt changed the way he preached at all in the last 25 years. In fact he might have been more intense during revival than at any other time. But then again if you refuse to look at first hand evidence you'll never know will you."God offends the mind to reveal the heart"I expect that everytime the Lord whom we seek suddenly comes to His temple those who say they want it most will probably like it least.Remember it was the Jews who were looking for Messiah who was the ones who rejected Him and declared Him false because He dissapointed their expectations. He dashes our expectations of what it will look like when He comes on purpose. Other than souls are saved and Christians are convicted of sin.Jesus only says "The lame walk the blind see and the Gospel is preached." in response to "Is this is or should we expect something else?" Johnathan Edwards points out that You cant make an argument from silence, the Bible does not condmen or condone unusual manifestations so neither can we. Shaking, gold dust, feathers etc. mean nothing in themselves. They are signs not ends in themselves.the question is this: when they are done shaking are they different? My personal answer and the answer of many many people is YES. Some are no, but what else do you expect? Jesus had 12 that He chose Himself, one was a devil. That's 1 out of 12, so if one out of every 12 people in a church was a devil that still wouldnt disqualify the Revival as being genuine. Messy, but genuine.You can discredit Jesus over Judas if you want too you can say He must not have been genuine or preached a strong enough gospel because His closest followers fled when He needed them the most, when it came to sacrifice they ran away but you would be judging from mere human appearances and not with rightous judgment. If it were not for major problems in churches we would not have much of the New Testement since almost every letter was written to combat some major heresy or sin problem not to mention elders chosen by the Apostles themselves turning into devils and leading people astray. "What has been will be. There is nothing new under the sun." Brother do your homework, listen to the Revival sermons and for Gods sake man soften your heart!! Do you realize that you have reached a place where you can hear first hand testimony from broken people about how Jesus set them free and your response is "emotionalism"? Should they be "calm"? I tell you if they were calm the very rocks would cry out!

Sovereign God...Your ways are not my own, your wisdom never ends. Sovereign God...You've created the heavens, yet you call me your friend.

Any clarity would be appreaciated. tacklebox Here is an idea it has worked for me in the past on a number of occasions. E-mail David Wilkerson or World Challenge, and the website for Leonard Ravenhill. Ask them what they believe has happened at Brownsville. I recall David Wilkerson a number of years ago mentioning what was happening in Brownsville. It was like I said a number of years ago so I can't recall the detail.Also Art Katz has a sermon on "the present day revivals" that have gone on. Although I have not listened to it. Wish I had now.

Finney has been brought up by Tacklebox. Some discernment ministries of him are a good example of why I spend my time railing against them. It's over a hundred and fifty years since he has been around and you can get on the internet and find people all wrapped up in slandering him.Edwards was practically run out of Northhampton eventually. Obviously, the discernment ministers of his day thought they were doing a good thing.In Christ,GaryE

Friends,Revivals are messy. Make no mistake -- at first they will not look like much but chaos. But when the smoke clears the sheep have been seperated from the goats.Listen friends -- based on a historical analysis of revival Brownsville is not technically a revival -- Does Brownsville still have operating bars, strip clubs, etc. If it does -- not revival. I persoanlly see it as nothing more that a renewal of that church with some people being saved and convicted and a lot of others touched. Here is my point -- Why does everyone make a big deal about Brownsville? -- because it is one of the largest sparks we have had in a long time and when everything has been so dark for so long -- even the smallest spark looks like a beacon.This is the thing when this continent has a revival ( a real one) You will not be able to say where it started, nor will you be able to put a face on it. So the fact that I am talking about Steve Hill and Brownsville is already telling me this ain't it. The revival that is coming and that needs to come will start as a an act of the Holy Spirit.1. It will have manifestations of power.2. It will have deep conviction.3. It will have people coming to God through the drawing of the Holy Spirit.4. It will not have a place or a name. Why? because if it does -- the face and name will take credit or be given it. From what I have read Brownsville may very well been a place God would have used to start this. But it became a tourist attraction instead of a guidepost to revival in our own churches. It became about the 'revival' instead of the God of the revival.To site Ravenhill: Revival will come ot a particular kind of people. They are obedient, humble and praying people. They submit completely to the lordship of Christ, they pray without ceasing and they want revial in sincerity -- if they desire anything for themselves out of it -- they are no longer humble. I have several Brownsville music CD's and one of Steve Hill's books. I know people may have done these things for the best intentions, but the best intentions can cause the greatest amount of harm.This is not a bash -- just an observation -- we are so quick sometimes to spread revival by human means (CD's, books, TV, tapes ,etc.) That in so doing We actually forget that God and God alone brings revial and only ot a people that has humbled theselves, prayed, sought the face of God and turned from their wicked ways. We must get rid of these notions for real revial to come. Brownsville could have been the start, but human beings mucked it up by trying to do God's job for him.Blessings.

Last year I met a group of people who became Christians at the Brownsville revival and 10 years later they were all blatantly still proper up for it so it can't have been all that bad.

sir edwardperhaps it would help to know that Pensacola rejected the revival because of the slander of the press and the competitive religion that soaked the place. I've lived there i do know what i'm talking about first hand. Hey, some town rejected Jesus and a prophet is often without honor in his own hometown.But the international fruit is undeniable brother.Also the video tapes were for the purpose of documentation. They knew wild rumors would circulate so why not have proof they were not true?Of course some people dont WANT proof the rumors arent true..They sold for like $10 a piece and absolutely NO copywrite was ever put on them.They sold them because people wanted them and they made it as easy as possibly for it to go out for as little as possible. That's why the tapes spread thoughout the world!If you live somewhere where it's dead and dry those videos really really help trust me, it's just a blessing to be able to enter into the presence of God tha way. Also dont ask my why but God shows up when you put one of those videos in just like if you were at the services. I remember watching a video where they had communion at the beginning of service and the Glory of God came into my living room it was amazing!If God chooses to use it, i dont see why it should offend us. After all man invented paper and the printing press, and God used that. In short, mulititudes of believers got right with God, so did over 300,000 (conservative estamite) people get saved for the very first time. Brownsville and Pensacola was affected as a whole DURING the revival the crime dropped some places closed etc. but of course like every other revival once it stopped the spirits that were cast out came back with a vengance. It is my personal opnion that Hurricane Ivan, which i was there for (and the others after it which i were not) was Gods Judgment on Pensacola for rejecting the revival. Pensacola was virtually destroyed. We had to leave due to the lack of jobs and housing. Even BRSM (the minsitry school) closed right around this time. You know someone should really write a book called"I was there at the Brownsville Revival" just like we have of the old revivals so we can get some of this stuff cleared up!

dullrainbow wrote:

Any clarity would be appreaciated. tacklebox Here is an idea it has worked for me in the past on a number of occasions. E-mail David Wilkerson or World Challenge, and the website for Leonard Ravenhill. Ask them what they believe has happened at Brownsville. I recall David Wilkerson a number of years ago mentioning what was happening in Brownsville. It was like I said a number of years ago so I can't recall the detail.Also Art Katz has a sermon on "the present day revivals" that have gone on. Although I have not listened to it. Wish I had now.

sj,"I was there at the Brownsville Revival" just like we have of the old revivals so we can get some of this stuff cleared up!Perhaps they should because I would really like to know. Brother -- if your place is dead and dry -- light it on fire yourself and see what remains because ifa video can revive it than I can tell you that its manufactured. Revival fires must burn from the inside out. That is why revival can't be transplanted by media. Like I said -- I am not judging but in addition to the videos you mention -- Brownsville music CDs came by the score and there was profit made on them for Brownsville at $15 a pop. Now brother -- I know that to make and ship a CD anywhere is roughly $2 -- if the concern was purly to spread the revival, why not give the music away at cost, or beleive God would fund it. My point is that we can often do things with very good intentions and still taint them because we do not consult God about them. Many times people act in what they feel is good instead of embracing prayer for all things -- did anyone ever simply ask -- "Does GOd want us to reproduce or music and sell it?" Or was it like so many things in religion, inc. these days where it was just done because that is the way it is? I don't know I wasn't there, but I would guess the later is true.It may very well be that Pensecola and others are being punished for rejecting the revival, but then again what happened in the church there that cause it own internal fire to die down. Revival started with them why did it not continue? Did thier hearts change about it themselves?Brownsville became a tourist spot instead of an epicenter. People did not go there with the mind of bringing revival home with them in their heart to burn in their own churches. They went their to get blessed and say they went-- I know I have thme in my church. They wanted to know the blessing of revival for others without having to have the faith for their own backyard. We cannot and will not see revival spead this way.I restate for the record -- I beleive that brownsville WAS a geniuine revival. But I also beleive that something has shortcurcuited it along the line. I want to know what that is so I don't make the same mistake should revival come to the church I pastor. Blessings.

Agreed, Revival WAS not IS.I'll be the first to say that!The congregation or somebody (exactly who i was not told) told Pastor Kilpatrick they he was not welcome at Brownsville Assembly of God anymore. (thats from a conversation i had with Brenda Kilpatrick his wife) The church isnt praying like it used tooand says the revival ended in 2000. That church went through hell and i hate to say it but they gave up. Attacks and general weariness in well doing did them in.Cd's for $15, all that money went into Music Missions International not to Lindell Cooley. They gave the money away not the Cd'sIf you disagree than when you have your revival do it different. About it being "manufactured" because of God using video tapes. Is a miracle less a miracle because it's caught on tape? If you saw someones leg grow out in person and someone caught it on video and then you watched it at home a few years later and the Holy Ghost came on you when you did just like at first does that mean that the miracle you witnessed somehow becomes less valid because you saw it on video? No. Does it mean you backslid that the wonder of it hit you again? No. Neither does the fact that God decided to have the miracle of Revival on video lessen it's validity. I think the main arugment against it goes like this "its too good to be true"...well i cant help you there. Did you know the Roman Roads in ancient times (invention of man) was used by God to spread the Gospel all over the known world? Same with modern media. Lest we forget we are on the devils internet right now! You KNOW God can move though the internet. He's just that kind of God.I cant explain it better than that, get a video from like 1996-1998 or so and watch it you'll see EXACTLY why those videos are a blessing. It's possible they had something that we still lack. I know God is IN us but i tell you there are times where He comes down ON us. The Glory was so thick...it's like Ravenhill once said in refrence to another revival"it was like God jumped into the audiance!"It was terrifyingly wonderful!Now to those who see opposed to the fact that God didnt only make people repent but also refreshed the saints:In Gods presence is fullness of JOY. Repentance took place but what happens after repentance? The angels rejoice! Shouldn't we? There is a season for everything and there were times God just wanted to bless His children with Joy in His presence. The Kingdom came:Rightousness (everyone here seems to agree on this point), Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit. The last two dont seem as readily embraced. Gods happy...get over it. I agree about bringing the fire where you are and i did, and i got publicly kicked out of the church that i was going too.From what i hear Lots of people got kicked out of their home churches. The pastors were convinced God wouldnt do anything though a member of the "laity" that many of them opposed it. Also its easy for that fire to die down when you dont see anyone else burning quite as bright. Like it or not it's true. Especially since many people (including myself) were new converts at the time and didnt have the discipline yet to maintain what they got. I've grown i pray lots of other people did also.As far as i understand it here are the basics as far as why revival stopped:HUMANS. Namely corporate denominational humans interfering in stuff they should have just left alone.Heres another thought about the videos:Didnt God annoint handkerchiefs? If that was not in the Bible you wouldnt believe it. Instead of assuming it's fake, WATCH ONE. Especially from the early years. I'm sure you will change your mind.

Have you fellows about run out of steam yet? There was a mention made a bit back about this;Try plugging the word "Brownsville" or "Toronto" into the search engine on the main page.Reason being that you are covering previous ground in large part.

crsschk wrote:Have you fellows about run out of steam yet? This sounds like the talk of an experienced moderator. It was such a great comment I thought I would say a hearty AMEN! :-D

I have listened to alot of audio by J Edwin Orr, and he talks about in revival history, certain manifestations that occurs.I encourage you to check out his audio at www.jedwinorr.com

Steam? Well, no. Have you ever heard of a knight worth anything who quit in the middle of a melee? Sj,I think it simply goes to the question of how a revival spreads. By man manufactuered means like Cds and videos or by the Holy Spirit. I am sorry my friend sj but there is no histoircal record of revival being spread by man made media of any type. The Roman's Road at least understand that faith comes by hearing and heard by the Word of God. To paraphrase Paul -- "has what you started in the Spirit going to be continue in the flesh."Cd's for $15, all that money went into Music Missions International not to Lindell Cooley No doubt. But 'Music Missions' now that is an interesting concept. Oh yeah -- 'sing without ceasing' -- no that's not right. 'In everything use song' no that's not right. 'preach the hymnal' man wrong too. Missions is about the gospel not music. Simply an oximoron to me.The church isnt praying like it used tooand says the revival ended in 2000.That church went through hell and i hate to say it but they gave up. Attacks and general weariness in well doing did them in.Well, I can't let this one go. (sorry all powerful moderators ;-) ) So there is a justification for a church to stop praying -- being persecuted. Glad the church didn't by it in the first century. Everything you seem to be saying is because of all the criticim they quit -- and its all the critics fault. Sorry, when a church gives up and stops praying -- their fault no one elses, you can't point fingers o nthat one. As you have pointed out all great revivals will be persecuted and if there is any real Spirit in it it will perservere. Sorry -- I think what they did was exactly as I said before -- the started in the Spirit but tried to keep it going with the flesh. I agree about bringing the fire where you are and i did, and i got publicly kicked out of the church that i was going too.From what i hear Lots of people got kicked out of their home churches. The pastors were convinced God wouldnt do anything though a member of the "laity" that many of them opposed it. Very true, but it is also true that many had no intention of spreading the revial as well. They went for selfish reasons to get blessed, but had absolutely no intention of building a revival through prayer for their own church. They would gladly make a pilgramige (yes that is what it was) to Brownsville, but you would never see them in the church they actually attended's prayer meeting.You got kicked out huh? Well so did I out of my first church. Why because they wanted to be like Brownsville in tapes, CDs, books -- our music ministry will bring revival because were so good, pastor. I told then it was nonsese that revial comes thorugh music -- music is nothing more than an expression of the revival -- not the bringer of revival itself -- they left. Most of them tried another church that bought what they were saying -- didn't work.Namely corporate denominational humans interfering in stuff they should have just left alone. Curious -- which denomination shut this one down. All I ever got from the AoG was -- go to it. I am sorry there are also the humans in Brownsville that quit and gave up. That is their fault.Instead of assuming it's fake, WATCH ONE.Especially from the early years. I'm sure you will change your mind.Did. (why is it when anyone make an comment about somone esles stuff that they don't like, they assume the other guy hasn't read or listened to it.) My opinion stands firm. I have gotten blessed by them and the music, but I understand that revival for myself and my church will come not because we buy a tape -- but because we will have humbled ourselves before God, prayed, sought his face and turned from wickedness. It will be about our hearts before God not imported religious worship. It has to be about our own worship not copying someone elses.Didnt God annoint handkerchiefs?If that was not in the Bible you wouldnt believe it. Now your going to a place I did not go and you have certainly read into what I have said but I will respond.I believe that God can use anything for his purpose even the tapes you speak of -- but in the case of revival -- I don't think it spreads it. This was not magic when God use clothes from Paul -- it was simply his power to do so. I will also note -- it brought healing but it did not bring revival - that is about the heart and it takes more than hankerchiefs -- it takes the cross and an empty tomb. I think you make some large assumptions about what I have beleived.I am not gun ho about the revival in brownsville , but i also understand it was not of the devil in the beginning. I also understand that the blame for falure does not belong to the people at brownsville alone or their critics. But the people in Brownsville do ahve a majority of the blame because of their failure -- to 'pray without ceasing' and 'in everything (even persecution) give thanks. Blessings.

Wow...you have it all figured out dont you. I hope you get a chance to do it "right" since they did it all "wrong." The sad thing is you think you have the right answers but you arent even asking the right questions. If you want to know what the right questions are then ask Jesus, I'm not telling you. I'm done. I dont feel like having my pearls trampled anymore. So announce your "victory" brave knight. Add another stripe to your shirt and feather in your cap you "win".

Wow...you have it all figured out dont you.Actually I have never said that, but I do have an opinion which you seem to think I have no right have.I hope you get a chance to do it "right" since they did it all "wrong." Never said that either, but I do want to avoid mistakes. I have said it before and I will say it again -- if I found myself in such a position I would not be blaming critics or outside forces because greater is HE that is in me than he that is in the world. If I fail in my endevor to get rivival in my church I will place the bullseye squarely where it belongs -- me. Not God or my Critics. I will have failed to pray and humble myself as God directed. I will have failed to persue holiness.So announce your "victory" brave knight.Add another stripe to your shirt and feather in your cap you "win". No victory. My fight was not with you and it never was. Besides my sword is not my own it belongs to God so he can only claim victories. I have no desire to have stripes or notches in my belt -- My purpose was to get answers to my questions and that has failed. I was also my purpsoe not to offend but get an honest answers with thought provoking discussion -- also failed. No victory here to claim even if I wanted to or felt i had the right. The sad thing is you think you have the right answers but you arent even asking the right questions.If you want to know what the right questions are then ask Jesus, I'm not telling you.I'm done. I dont feel like having my pearls trampled anymore. I am deeply sorry that you feel this way -- once again you have mislabeled my intent, but I am sure you could not be wrong based on your assement of your 'pearls'. After all it is I who am asking the wrong questions so I have the wrong answers.I have some questions then for you:1. What problems do you see with Brownsville looking back -- what would you have done differently? You can't stop the ctitics so what way should have the response been given the critics?2. Are you truly offended with me because I am so ignorant or that I am not as ignorant as you supposed and still have issues with the revival? It seems that you are very typical of many from this revial -- "I was a part of it so it can't be wrong and any critics of it are jsut ignorant" Hyper sensitive and hyper defensive. I am sorry you were offeneded at me -- once again this was not my intent. My intent was to get some straight quesitons and answers. If I am now you enemy I will then trust that you will be following Jesus' to pray for me. You do follow his words? I will also assume that you have forgiven me for iH ave forgiven you in mislabeling or me.I have many critics too of my ministry here in Perry, MI. but I have learned to stay on my knees and keep my heart before God. If He is true as I know he is -- He will vindicate me. I also have learned to listen to what the critics are saying -- becasue not all of it is false. They have a different perspective than I. I filter it through the Word, make changes and move on. SJ I am sorry we have parted on such circumstances and i hope you will reread my posts becasue i think you have read more into them than is there. Blessings.

To add,Last night I did some more hunting and found Steve Hill's new church. http://www.heartlandfamily.comI had to listen to his sermons so I clicked the one on front which had a warning label for minsters. I must say I loved it. It very much reminded my of Keith Green's --whats wrong with the gospel. I also notted that he referenced Dave Wilkerson as his mentor which I knew but it struck me this time that there was a very similar style to what he was doing. Actually quite good. Much like i have see him before.This brings up a question of the fact that I like Steve Hill -- he seems to say a lot of the right things and preaches and honest gospel. I love his book on the beginning of the revial -- 'A Time to Weep' as well. Not as good as Ravenhill , but good. What's everyone else think here? Don't worry I have developed a very thick skin over the years for fire away.Blessings.

There seems to be nothing much uglier than the wrath of a pentecostal when they are challenged. The Fruit of the Spirit is LOVE and self-control. These qualities seemed to absent when you press a tonguesite for some real answers from the Bible. Most will curse you literally if you oppose them because they are convinced that you must "demonstrate" you are a Spirit-filled Christian by a physical manifestation. There are satanists and mormons doing the exact same thing and they are not heaven-bound. The worst of the twisted doctrines are being produced by the TBNers and those who follow their "touchy-feeling" religion. There are many very well meaning and precious people follwing Hinny Ben and the like but they are on a very slippery slope. I pray the God will enlighten them with the TRUTH of the Word and untangle their tongues to speak the truth in love instead of cursing those who are trying to help them see the light.

demarks,I agree -- but i am also a Pentecostal myself. One of the great things i do weep about with my movement is what you say. Pentecostals do have their scholars that could give you answers but most Pentecostals are very ignorant of WHY they beleive what they believe. I think this is the influence of the WoF on the momvement more than anything else. If you ask why it means you don't have faith or something. I disagree 00 if what we are saying is true -- it will stand Biblcial scrutiny.BTW -- If you have your questions I will be glad to answer them. Sometimes the fact that I am an educated Pentecost does come in handy ;-) Blessings.

Let me ask you why you are a pentecostal? By that I mean the contemporary version of the term. Pentecostal can mean many things to different people. Some seem to bristle when you try to combine pentecostal with charasmatic. I know that United Penecostals are not trinitarians. I come from a background of more Wesleyan and non-charasmatic. I have truly tried to understand that movement but I can only come to the conclusions about it by scriptural principles. I see wonderful truths in so many denominations but no one seems to have the corner market on the whole truth. I am not a Calvinist and I am not a charasmatic. I really don't know what to call myself except to say I want to be known as a Berean Christian--searching the Word of God to see what is true. Truth should be declared and error should be exposed and all should be in a loving manner. But some seem to want to squelch any criticism on frivolous grounds. If Brownsville was built on shaking ground then it should fall--it did. Partial truth is not good enough. The whole truth and nothing but the truth will survive the tests of time.

Let me ask you why you are a pentecostal? Labels do make things difficult don't they?I am a Pentecostal because in other palces I would not be accepted. The Assemblies of God fits my faith (based on the 16 fundamental truths) the best from studying the Word for myself so here I am. The Assmblies of God is (based on their statements of faith) trinitarian, evangelical, and well beleives in the Holy Spirit acting like he did in the book of Acts for today. Me too. It is not a perfect fit, but as close as I can get and do what god has called me to do. I did grow up in it as well.I am probably one of the few 'classical' Pentecostals left. They beleived that the Word was final authority and that was that. They searched the Scrptures and then wanted to expereince what they saw there not just talk aobut it. I am of like mind.There is a difference between being a Pentecostal and a Charismatic. I think primarily it has to do with background. Charismatics are people that belong or did belong to one mainline denom (Methodist, Prebyterian, etc.) but had the expereince of tongues, etc. and stayed in their denoms or left them to start new ones. Pentecostals for the most part were people who already had denoms such as the Assemblies or Church of God Clevland, TN. They have a more establish Pentecostal tradition I would say. They are the origianl outcasts of Asuza Street and Topeka, Kansas and the generations that have followed them. There are some doctrinal differences but they are so varried I couldn't tell you exactly what they are. Where I get in trouble with my brethren 1) I think too much for most Pentecostals -- I too want Biblical Pentecostalism not this perversion I see today. I often get accused of being critical -- 'just believe Ed and receive'. I respond -- 'to just believe and recieve without discernment is foolish' and it goes downhill from there. 2) I don't just accept everything the leadership tells me or that surrounds me with the label of Holy Spirit inspired. I test the spirits according to the Word and if it is lining up, I say so. As you can imagine -- I am not always the popular guy at councils and fellowships.I do love my movement, I love it enough to say when I feel something is wrong. I often wonder why people don't deal with issues in Pentecost becasue if they just listen to those of us in house they might take a lot less heat from outside the fellowship.Blessings.

Great response, Ed. I praise God for your desire to know the truth and live by it. May the Lord richly bless you as you continue to walk with Him. There is entirely too much mush going on in the "touchy feely" crowd. And if you disagree with them, they show their carnality by cursing you. I believe you can discuss things with the idea of "iron sharpening iron". You can challenge other people in a civil way and expect a good biblical answer smothered in grace. Word of Faith movement has been a great hinderance to revival in our country. I have recently picked on AW Tozer. He was a great CAMA preacher. You can download some of his sermons on this site, especially about revival, and it will be life-changing (in my opinion). Hope to read more from you soon.

Hi Sir_Edward...!I understand your remarks well. I have been raised in the Assemblies of God since my parents were saved when I was just a child. Over the years, we moved several times (my father was in the military). With each move, I noticed that each local Assembly of God Church that we have attended was quite different from the previous. Some Assembly of God churches that we attended (including the one in which my parents were saved) were indeed quite conservative -- and could be called "classic pentecostal" fellowships. These churches preached the Gospel without attempting to appeal to the changes of the day. They hardly resembled the charismatic churches that you see on Christian TV. The pastors boldly preached "hard words" and the call for personal holiness was repeated often. However, my family also attended some of the newer, large "mega-churches" of the Assemblies of God. These churches seemed much more accepting of doctrines that are consistant with the charismatic churches -- such as the prosperity movement, an emphasis on "visual" manifestations (such as being "slain in the spirit" and "holy laughter"), modern "art" as a form of worship (such as "timbrel choirs, ballet, dramas, and rock-and-roll bands to attact the youth), etc... Youth pastors at these mega-churches seemed willing to do anything to attact youth to the services. Over time, I noticed that many more people would always "go forward" to "make a decision for Christ" at these larger Churches. Concerts, plays, and spectacles like The Power Team held "altar calls" that drew hundreds (and sometimes, thousands) of individuals. However, I also noticed that most of the people that were "saved" were never seen or heard from again. It brought to mind the words of men like Ray Comfort in Hell's Best Kept Secret. The A/G Church that I attended after graduating high school was a classic pentecostal A/G church that was trying its best to conform to the charimatic churches. Eventually, it changed into a completely charismatic congregation. Most of the original congregation left, and the moderate-sized congregation turned into a mirror of anything that you would see on Christian TV. In fact, many of the "special guests" were preachers that frequently appear on TBN. The well-meaning pastor went so far as to begin "casting lots" when he was asking for direction from the Lord. It is my personal belief that churches like Brownsville A/G seemingly attempt to "bridge the gap" between these two types of A/G churches. They seemingly hold fast to the "classic pentecostal doctrine" -- but they also embrace the charismatic beliefs as well. Even if what has happened at Brownsville is all completely real -- it doesn't change the fact that God is not confined to Brownsville! The best time of my day (and spiritual life) is spending time alone with God in my prayer closet. I don't feel any need to travel across the nation to find a church where I can be "touched by God." If God is not "touching my heart" in my prayer closet -- then something is definitely wrong.Like you, I do not fit in with many of the traditional definitions of a pentecostal. I have always been well-received by other believers and pastors in both types of churches. However, I have always held that a believer should "test everything." This has not gone over well for pastors who constantly claim "God told me..." (including the one who liked to "cast lots"). My parents now attend a Church of God (Cleveland, TN), while I attend a small, local church near my University. I must honestly say that I do not miss the "charismatic" style of churches at all. Since graduating high school, I have attended A/G, non-denominational and Calvary Chapel fellowships. But like all individuals, I think that each local church is different. Each should be considered as such. :-)

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:Hi Sir_Edward...!I understand your remarks well. I have been raised in the Assemblies of God since my parents were saved when I was just a child. Over the years, we moved several times (my father was in the military). With each move, I noticed that each local Assembly of God Church that we have attended was quite different from the previous. Some Assembly of God churches that we attended (including the one in which my parents were saved) were indeed quite conservative -- and could be called "classic pentecostal" fellowships. These churches preached the Gospel without attempting to appeal to the changes of the day. They hardly resembled the charismatic churches that you see on Christian TV. The pastors boldly preached "hard words" and the call for personal holiness was repeated often. However, my family also attended some of the newer, large "mega-churches" of the Assemblies of God. These churches seemed much more accepting of doctrines that are consistant with the charismatic churches -- such as the prosperity movement, an emphasis on "visual" manifestations (such as being "slain in the spirit" and "holy laughter"), modern "art" as a form of worship (such as "timbrel choirs, ballet, dramas, and rock-and-roll bands to attact the youth), etc... Youth pastors at these mega-churches seemed willing to do anything to attact youth to the services. Over time, I noticed that many more people would always "go forward" to "make a decision for Christ" at these larger Churches. Concerts, plays, and spectacles like The Power Team held "altar calls" that drew hundreds (and sometimes, thousands) of individuals. However, I also noticed that most of the people that were "saved" were never seen or heard from again. It brought to mind the words of men like Ray Comfort in Hell's Best Kept Secret. The A/G Church that I attended after graduating high school was a classic pentecostal A/G church that was trying its best to conform to the charimatic churches. Eventually, it changed into a completely charismatic congregation. Most of the original congregation left, and the moderate-sized congregation turned into a mirror of anything that you would see on Christian TV. In fact, many of the "special guests" were preachers that frequently appear on TBN. The well-meaning pastor went so far as to begin "casting lots" when he was asking for direction from the Lord. It is my personal belief that churches like Brownsville A/G seemingly attempt to "bridge the gap" between these two types of A/G churches. They seemingly hold fast to the "classic pentecostal doctrine" -- but they also embrace the charismatic beliefs as well. Even if what has happened at Brownsville is all completely real -- it doesn't change the fact that God is not confined to Brownsville! The best time of my day (and spiritual life) is spending time alone with God in my prayer closet. I don't feel any need to travel across the nation to find a church where I can be "touched by God." If God is not "touching my heart" in my prayer closet -- then something is definitely wrong.Like you, I do not fit in with many of the traditional definitions of a pentecostal. I have always been well-received by other believers and pastors in both types of churches. However, I have always held that a believer should "test everything." This has not gone over well for pastors who constantly claim "God told me..." (including the one who liked to "cast lots"). My parents now attend a Church of God (Cleveland, TN), while I attend a small, local church near my University. I must honestly say that I do not miss the "charismatic" style of churches at all. Since graduating high school, I have attended A/G, non-denominational and Calvary Chapel fellowships. But like all individuals, I think that each local church is different. Each should be considered as such. :-) I give a hearty "AMEN!" to that, CCChhhrrriiisss!Well said, brother!-Chris

Sir_Edward wrote:To add,Last night I did some more hunting and found Steve Hill's new church. http://www.heartlandfamily.comI had to listen to his sermons so I clicked the one on front which had a warning label for minsters. I must say I loved it. It very much reminded my of Keith Green's --whats wrong with the gospel. I also notted that he referenced Dave Wilkerson as his mentor which I knew but it struck me this time that there was a very similar style to what he was doing. Actually quite good. Much like i have see him before.This brings up a question of the fact that I like Steve Hill -- he seems to say a lot of the right things and preaches and honest gospel. I love his book on the beginning of the revial -- 'A Time to Weep' as well. Not as good as Ravenhill , but good. What's everyone else think here? Don't worry I have developed a very thick skin over the years for fire away.Blessings. I have heard so many mixed things about Mr. Hill that I really have no choice but to remain very cautious. There are many great men of God like Ravenhill who are quite spotless in their testimonies.Are we so starved spiritually that we are willing to compromise our spiritual intergrity?In Mr. Hill's defense, I have heard only good things about him and his ministry concerning the last few years, and I have been suggested to listen to some of his messages by trusted friends of mine.I plan on checking them out, but I will do so with caution. I am not trying to sound arrogant, just careful.-Chris :-)

My two cents worth:I would NEVER go by something you HEAR.Dangerous.I went to the Revival. Twice.It was incredible. I was touched by God in a way that is hard to explain.Sure, there was some people there in the flesh. But any revival will have that.I've also witnessed first hand how it's changed dozens of peoples lives that I know personally.

Please bear with me cause I'm quoting everybody here:Brownsville desired for people to come and experience the revival and then return to their churches and carry the revival fire there.My question is: If the Sprit of God is omnipresent and demon spirits are not, why do I have to go somewhere else to get the Spirit of God? I would wonder just what kind of spirit I'm getting.Another point is that we have been warned in scripture not to seek after signs and wonders.Very true!I am no more willing to trust in statisical results as a measure of success than I am by emotions, for both can be deceiving.Yes, I agree that emotions can be very deceiving. And numbers don't impress me of the fruit of change is not present in people's lives.I have never been to Brownsville, nor do I ever want to go. I don't have to go to hell to know it's a bad place.I totally agree!"Discernment ministries" are leeches. They do next to nothing but profit from bashing others. And you are an utter and total Hypocrite for Judging something that you didnt even take the time to check out first hand and still refuse to.I believe we should always test things to see if they are of God.Revivals are indeed more about moral climate and ethics than manifestations, but manifestations are a part of them. Ravenhill was very much for the spiritual gifts in balance with spiritual fruit.I believe you can have "gifts" without fruit but you can't have fruit without gifts.God's name and His "power" are being thrown around and cheapened. His name isn't being magnified but simplified - into an experience and mass hysterics.I don't think it should be about the power of an experience but it should be about God Himself. Faith and feelings are sometimes at odds with one another.Throwing a blanket of "some good" over it doesn't cleanse it anymore than the unregenerate will stand clean before God with a few good works.I think it was Jesse Penn-Lewis in the book War on the Saints who talked about historic revivals and how the devil will always try to insert a little bit of good stuff into a bad thing to try and deceive people.Do you think a good tree can bring forth good fruit and then become corrupt through the workings and corruption of man and then be cut down and cast into the fire? I think this is most likely what happened at Brownsville.Yes I believe this is also true in talking about people who believe once you're saved you'll always be saved no matter what, but that's a whole other topic.The revival that is coming and that needs to come will start as a an act of the Holy Spirit. It will not have a place or a name. Why? because if it does -- the face and name will take credit or be given it.Yes, I believe when true revival comes the glory always goes to God and there are no personalities being glorified.But it became a tourist attraction instead of a guidepost to revival in our own churches. It became about the 'revival' instead of the God of the revival.Are we seeking an experience or are we seeking God?We are so quick sometimes to spread revival by human means (CD's, books, TV, tapes ,etc.) That in so doing We actually forget that God and God alone brings revial and only ot a people that has humbled theselves, prayed, sought the face of God and turned from their wicked ways. We must get rid of these notions for real revial to come. Brownsville could have been the start, but human beings mucked it up by trying to do God's job for him.I agree that we ought to let God do only what He can do instead of trying to do it ourselves which will never work. Revival only comes with humility and tears and much prayer.If you live somewhere where it's dead and dry those videos really really help trust me, it's just a blessing to be able to enter into the presence of God tha way. Also dont ask my why but God shows up when you put one of those videos in just like if you were at the services.Once again: If the Sprit of God is omnipresent and demon spirits are not, why do I have to go somewhere else to get the Spirit of God? If I live somewhere where it's dead, then it's my own fault for not stirring myself up to seek God.I don't feel any need to travel across the nation to find a church where I can be "touched by God." If God is not "touching my heart" in my prayer closet - then something is definitely wrong.My thoughts exactly!

Wow. I was reading with fascination all of the opinions and experiences related here. It is amazing to me, that so many can be so "sure" of things they have not seen or heard with their own ears. But first, I was reminded of something that I heard, and I have tried to keep in mind whenever there is a ministry that I don't like or agree with, 100%. "Touch not mine annointed." Some of the ppl mentioned in this thread, I would not go to see if I were paid. BUT, it's not my job to judge them, and IF they are having any kind of success in bringing ppl to a saving knowledge of JESUS CHRIST, then I guess I'd better just keep my mouth closed. Sure, I'll suggest OTHER options when pplk come to me all excited from this "great" preacher or that "annointed" one. Maybe that person is and maybe they aren't. I don't know what they are like, 24/7, and I probably don't want to know. It's almost easier to imagine that the ppl who SEEM to be oh-so-righteous, are the most likely to be carefully hiding something. But I'm not willing to go there, b/c I KNOW Him in whom I have believed, and I KNOW that HE is able to do things well above what our small minds can comprehend, AND that WITHOUT our consent! ;) I was blessed to have been moved to Pensacola during 1998-1999, and was there for many services during the next couple of years. I have to tell whomever it was that mentioned the preaching of holiness, and the "lack" of it there, that there was an absolutely overwhelming amount of holiness preached there. Holiness and Repentance. Repentance and Holiness. that's what was on the menu, any given day or night. Before my husband and I had ever been to the place, we were struck by the rumours we'd heard, good and bad, and felt compelled to go and see if it was GOD or not. When we were driving through the city, not even certain really where the church was, my husband said to me "We're getting closer, I feel something... (like the Holy Ghost)." and in about 10 seconds or so, we drove past a sign that was a "B-ville A-o-G" sign, pointing to the parking lot. You may believe that or not, but the Spirit will give witness of it's truth. I was blessed while we lived there, to get to know the wife of one of Steve's assistants, Rudy, and there was not a thing ungenuine about any of the people I met through them. My husband was hired on to do some work at the Hills' home, as it was being built, and I went there on occasion to have lunch with him. the house was practically reeking of Holy Spirit. (I don't think for a second that anyone of the ppl involved with this revival were superhuman, or any more ABLE to live holy lives than any one else. But as it was preached from the pulpit many times, it is a conscious, daily, choice.)Each room of the house had a different scripture written on the concrete foundation, as it had been prayed over by Mr. Hill. I don't know, I haven't studied revivals like many ppl have, I guess. But this man is as Godly a man as I've ever met. Jeri Hill, as I got to know her a bit, is as upright a woman as I can imagine. AND for the mentions of the way the revival has/had been so attached to PPL, and "not God", that's not the doing of anyone on the ministry team when I was there. It seems elementary to me, simple as I am, that when ppl hear of something phenominal going on, like at Brownsville, there are going to be PEOPLE named, and there are going to be those who will have "hero-worship" type things for the ministers, and/or anyone who is placed in the spotlight. To say that this is the FAULT of those who the Lord God had grace and favor on, even for a minute, is really a scary thought to me. I can't remember where it is written, but wasn't there a place in the OT where kids were taunting a prophet of God, and there came a bear and ate them? And I might have my facts confused, but didn't the earth open up and swallow ppl for similar things? I might be wrong. Either way, I saw and heard these ppl on and off the "stage". I can't say how they are now, but I'm certainly not about to speak against the Lord's annointed. I had to laugh about the remark about the extremes, or excesses or something....Isn't God a pretty much black-or-white kind of God? "all things in moderation", was that the thing that was being referred to, coz I'm pretty sure that's not in the Bible. Blessings to all, and thank you for your educated insights and esp. those from the experience of Spirit AND Truth. (P.S. someone said that that means in Emotions AND in Intelligence. Carey Roberts said you don't have to get all emotional, but you GET to.) :-D

Chris and Taka had some great responses.Must add that abbiegirl has brought up a good point about "touch not God's annointed". This is very much misunderstood and mistaught. The TBN'ers try to make it say that a preacher can do whatever he wants and you can't say anything about it because he is "God's annointed". (See Jim Baker and Jimmie Swaggart)It is used as a curse to stiff-arm anyone from critical discernment of anyone claiming to be a minister. This is very bad theology. We are to test all things (and people) according to the Word of God. The whole topic of Annointing has been very distorted over the years. The Annointed One is Jesus Christ (Messiah=Annointed). Those who are annointed are those who possess the Annointed One--Believers. This is not about some touchy feely preacher. I certainly don't think people should have "preacher" for Sunday dinner. But you should not talk badly about anyone in a carnal way. Now discerning what they are teaching is another thing. There are some very sincere people who are not doctrinally grounded. The Bible says we should confront them with the Word of God. If they do not listen, take another with you. Then you take them to the church for discipline. This goes for preachers, teachers, deacons and anyone else. The topic of annointing has had almost a magical aura about it in some segments of the church. If Jesus is in the midst, there is annointing because HE is the ANNOINTED ONE. All true preaching (truth preaching) is annointed because it will have at its center the Annointed One. Annointed preaching does not always gives you goosebumps. It may give you heartburn! Truth hurts. If you can't say Amen you may have to say OH ME! Listen to Francis Schaeffer or AW Tozer. You will learn some great truths. But don't be put off with people who use the 'annointed' as a buffer for wrong teachings.

Years ago when I was in leadership training at my church, one of the texts for our class was Spiritual Authority by Watchman Nee. We also read A Tale of Three Kings by Gene Edwards. These books talked about David and his responses to abuse of authority by Saul over him and later Absalom under him. His response was: If God has placed a leader in charge God will use him as He sees fit and will remove him when the time is right. David did not force himself into kingship. I believe we should never personally attack any minister, no matter how strongly we disagree with them. On the other hand, I believe we should speak up against false doctrine and teaching. God will deal with teachers who lead people astray, make no mistake about that. My hope is that we will be sensitive to what needs to be addressed in these situations and pray for the ones who have gone astray.

"Do not touch My anointed ones,And do My prophets no harm."It is interesting to look at this statement in context 1 Chronicles 16 to be exact -- this is found in verse 22. The verse is part of a song of thanksgiving to God for bring the people into the Land of Canaan and the word prophets is more specifically directed (given the context) to the Patriarchs. I just find it interesting that people that preach that we need to get out of the OT and into the NT will use a verse from the OT to defend themselves. I beleive that this is true for us today myself, but I also know how it is used today it wrong.God himself would not say that a prophet is not above scrutiny like this. A few Scriptures.Deuteronomy 13:1-41"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4"You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. Deuteronomy 18:18-2018'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' We need to remember that prophets once recognize to be true are to be followed. Testing of a prophets words was a part of that process. 1 John 4:1 -- 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.'For the Christian, John points out that this is even more of a need because in this time of THE annointed one -- Jesus. More of the devil's men in sheeps clothing will go out. But we are to remain faithful to the gospel and the one it is about regardless of what men or movements say. I am a pastor. I am a Pentecostal. My church like Brownsville is Assemblies of God. I beleive a lot of what happened was God and a lot of it was flesh too. My issue is not with Steve Hill or the rest of the people that lead that movement. I actually thingk Steve Hil was and still is a good egg. My issue is with those that say we shouldn't question anything that happened there becasue it was the Spirit. Really? The Whole thing was the Spirit. The why the strife? The why some of the junk at the end to fire up emotion instead of the Spirit? The fact is they started with the Spirit and tried to end in the flesh. discernment is the process of sifting out the flesh of something and seeing what was spiritual in it by going ot the Word.Here is the thing -- the people in Brownsville or those who went there want to assert their complete innocence on this thing and they should be the first in line to address the fact that they failed to be like the book of Acts in the end -- they let the persecution and strife get to them and they stopped praying and doing the things that lead to the revival in the first place. They failed ot be like paul or Peter or the rest of the early church and just keep going regardless of persecution or problems. Why should they admit this themsleves? Because if they were honest and repented of their failure it might fire up again. Its this whole attitude that everything that Brownsville did and said and touched was as infalible as God or his Word that bothers me. That we are not allowed to bring the Word and say -- "hey this might be a problem from Scripture" indicates a spiritual pride claiming infalibility which only God and his Word can claim. Revivals have humans in them and humans are flawed and what they do is flawed. Instead of saying -- "You know we need to search the Scriptures on that -- you may be right and we need to correct it to keep the revival going" they offer up "Touch not the Lord's annointed" as a pale excuse not to realize their own falibility. It saddens me that we have changed so much as Pentecostals that we have lost our basic humilty before God and the Word of God which is what filled us with the Spirit in the first place. When I first heard of Brownsville -- I prayed for it and the move of God. I prayed it would not be like Toronto, but that it would spread and catch the whole nation and world on fire. But then it became a tourist attraction and people used what was happening their to generate money for their religious causes and then -- strife in the leadership. I wept becasue the spark that I thought would start a nationwide revival turned into little or nothing of what I had hoped. I pray that revival will come but I have given up on Brownsville being the start of it. I believe now that the next revival will be one that no name or face will claim. It will be started by a simple preacher preaching somewhere on a normal Sunday and it will fall and spread to the next xhurxh and down the road so quickly that no one will be able ot tell where it started or where it ends. I pray and wait for my church and mself to be ready for it. I beleive this not because of any man who said it but I feel it is from the Spirit as I have prayed for revival. Blessings.

I just listened to Richard Owen Roberts on a sermon called "revival theology". Its a video on this site. He mentions the revival you are talking about. Its between 30-45 minutes time frame. I think it will settle some issues here.https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=279

Whew! While I appreciate all the opinions and views expressed on this thread, it seems the title of the thread was a pipe dream (at least the word SIMPLE.)I guess if Christians can't even agree on what salvation is, I shouldn't expect them to agree on what revival is...Okay, that last statement was peppered heavily with sarcasm...sorry. ;-)-Chris

I would NEVER go by something you HEAR.Dangerous.If it wasn't for that big qualifier NEVER...do you include Paul's statements as part of that NEVER? 1 Corinthians 11:18"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it." Or 2 Thessalonians 3:11"For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies."Trying not to be picky but if we are NEVER to go by what we HEAR then shouldn't we discount all testamonies of people being saved?? - Hope i'm not being to picky hear 8-) Quote:"Discernment ministries" are leeches. They do next to nothing but profit from bashing others. And you are an utter and total Hypocrite for Judging something that you didnt even take the time to check out first hand and still refuse to.Please, can you point me to the discernment ministries that were not at any of these revivals. Are you sure that all they do is "bash" and not point out false doctines that come from some of these revivals. Sincerely,Rob :-) :-)

Sorry, but this begs address:"So some good comes from it, and some people got saved, and some were brought closer to God. As Ravenhill likes to put it - SO WHAT!?That doesn't make it a legitimate revival nor does it make it bulletproof to Biblical scrutiny.The facts are still not being addressed. Throwing a blanket of "some good" over it doesn't cleanse it anymore than the unregenerate will stand clean before God with a few good works.I think the overall impact of Brownsville has done more to damage the Kingdom of God than to further it.Eve saw that the fruit was good, and I don't think she was deceived in that. It did appear to be pleasant and she actually thought some spiritual power would be gained from eating it. But in the end, the result wasn't being equal with God but separated from Him.I stand on the words of Christ:"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." -Matt. 7:18There is such a stench coming from this "revival" that I make no apologies for not being able to smell the perfume. "I must wonder, brother, if your "stench" isn't coming from a much closer proximity than Brownsville....I suggest that you are in no position to be casting stones, and that you would do well to consider how YOUR spiritual fruit stacks up. Nobody has claimed that the ppl involved in the REVIVAL were infallible. I daresay that there has not been anything of God on this planet, YET, that someone hasn't screwed up at some point. So, I wonder, why all the passionate attacking of one assembly of ppl who have at least at one time, gotten a LOT further with the Lord and the SPIRIT than most ppl will ever dream? It sounds like jealousy. (But I don't expect that this would be admitted to. Too much pride invested at this point. maybe something to think about?)Even a babe in the Lord can discern the lack of anything like the love of God coming out in these posts....Certainly, we must search the scriptures, and test the spirits. And if we kept our eyes on JESUS, we'd never have to worry aobut sinking. It worked for Peter.....

abbygrrl,I agree that some of the criticism directed a Brownsville has been overly harsh. Particularly those that say that nothing for the kingdom of God was done or that more harm was done than good. I don't see that. I see something good that turned sour for some reason. I don't know who your quoting from but their quote from Ravenhill is being misused. Ravenhill's point is that just because your see souls saved and things are happening this does not mean you have an automatic shield against Biblical scrutiny. In other words, just because these things are happening it does not necessarily follow that you can do anything you like because the Spirit is moving without following the Word about it. I have ben a Pentecostal long enough to know that when things start like this there is a tendancy to just think whatever you are doing is right regardless of what the Bible says about it. This is wrong, but I think you would agree.There are two problems I see with this discussion.1) Those against Brownsvilel have really not offered any proof of their claims either -- nor can they in many cases becasue they are make general statements about benefit to the Kingdom of God and such. If one person genuinely found the Lord in this revival then it was worth it for the kingdom of God. Such comments are indeed over the top because of this.2) On the other side no one that supports Brownsville wants to genuinely engage the issues that are genuine problems. It seems that they -- (in their pride as well abbygrrl as it seems pride has no bound on either side) -- seem to think all of it was good. I am not asking anoyone to become an opponent of Brownsville when I say this -- what I am saying is that if all you see is good when Biblically there are problems then that is just sticking your head in the sand when it comes to discernment.Here's what I would like to hear: "I loved Brownsville, the revival there was good, but these certain things developed that were problems and you know what we didn't deal with them so the revival became less than it could have. I still love Brownsville and you know what next time we are going to have the revival be more Biblcial so the revival has a greater and longer lasting impact. Here is what we should have done to do this"If someone were to do this I think that we would see revival return to Brownsville (perhaps) and it would benefit those that would listen so that when revival comes to them, they would have greater wisdom in dealing with these issues themselves. So far I am still holding my breath. ;-)My issue is one of correction and furtherance of the kingdom, not of condemnation. Blessings.

brentw,Thanks for the link -- it is a good one and your right i think that is what I am looking for. Looks like I found another old dead guy teacher that I should havel istened to when growing up. *Sigh*Blessings.

"I loved Brownsville, the revival there was good, but these certain things developed that were problems and you know what we didn't deal with them so the revival became less than it could have. I still love Brownsville and you know what next time we are going to have the revival be more Biblcial so the revival has a greater and longer lasting impact. Here is what we should have done to do this"Yes, yes, yes - this is the proper attitude, Sir Edward. I agree that there is too much pride on both sides, and I recant any prideful statements I made or even ones with that appearance.With that said, I also would like to state that neither side gave sufficient Biblical application to their stances. A few verses were thrown around, but the other side was quick to point out most of them to be taken out of context or misapplied.The simple fact of the matter is that some were looking at Brownsville from its latter days back, while others had perceived it from its beginning. I know that those who lead God's flock will face a harsher judgment, but it seems like the leadership of Brownsville lost sight of that fact and instead of maintaining control, they lost it. They fumbled.It is okay for us to point out that Brownsville fumbled as long as it is not casting stones. The other side of the coin is that those who are honest enough to say that Brownsville fumbled shouldn't have stones thrown at them.-Chris

Greetings in Jesus' Name,I was involved in this discussion at it's inception and was on the "Pro-Brownsville" side. I admit that I was way to harsh, opinionated, and prideful in my attempts to defend a movement which changed my life. I wrote a formal apology in my former thread, "Brownsville, Heretics, and Apologies". I as a graduated of Brownsville Revival School of Ministry and one who personally knows some of the revival leaders would be more than happy to discuss both the pro's and the con's. I have been reading much about how Brownsville went sour towards the end. I would like this to be cleared up a bit more. I was a student at the school in what would be called the "towards the end" period of the revival. And although I saw many "pilgrims" coming through Brownsville who did things that were less than Biblical, (these were always dealt with) I didn't see really any "sour"ness coming from the rest of the body. Certainly I wept and prayed many days longing for the real intensity of the revival which was present the first 4-5 years. However the student body was one of the most passionate, prayerful, holy living, evangelistic communities which I have ever been priveleged to be a part of. The leadership, some whom I knew, were some of the most Godly people I'd ever met. From my perspective as a first hand witness, although the originial fervor and heat of the revival waned in later years, the standards of holiness, prayer, repentance and Biblical teaching did not. Certainly not every guest speaker who came through was 100% correct. I remember several times speakers getting out of line and they were dealt with in a very Godly way. As of right now, the revival in Brownsville is pretty much no more. There are plenty of people still there who have been "revived" and are living it out. What we would think of as "the revival" though is no longer happening. I am still in contact with Pastor Richard Crisco who was the youth pastor during the revival and for his last two years at the church served as the president of the Bible school - as for him the church he is pastoring now is absolutely burning hot. (I live 45 minutes from it and visit once a month). I have not been in a church which exhibits such a hunger for God in a long time! I dunno - just my two cents.Burning,Jeff

Fire,Thanks for your response. I tihnk this is what I was looking for in that I am trying to find out why a revival wains and dies as it were and can it be avoided. I think your post helps.Blessings,Ed

What precisely do you mean by "on fire"? People throw around cliches like that are really code words for something else. Cults do it all the time. If by "on fire" you mean a continued gathering of people jumping up and down and yelling out "Praise the Lord" and catching people as they "fall out in the Lord", that's not revival. Some of the greatest revivals happen with less than peak on the VU meter. It is not how high you jump but how straight you walk. I had a pentecostal friend that use to tell me about his church having a "holy ghost" service. I asked if He (Holy Ghost)only visited the church occassionally or was HE (The Holy Ghost) a permanent participant? My friend seemed to think that the Third Person of the Trinity only came to church when enthusiasm to some measure was exhibited. I certainly believe in "heart-felt" religion IF it stands the test of scripture. But "tongues" do not a saint make. "Tongues" and its excesses are the problem and not the solution. THE greatest revivals of all the Christian age have NOT exhibited "tongues" as the sign gift. "Tongues" is the stumblingblock of Brownsville and any other revival attempt. Revival is the fulfillment of Romans 12:1-2. There are few churches today who are dead to their traditions and mindsets to the point where God can really invade and conquer His church the way HE wants to do.

I'm coming in to this thread rather late. I've seen a lot of discussion on manifestations in this thread. To address this discussion, first I would like to give an illustration:

A man had an electric fence around his house. He had visitors who were not aware of the fence. The first visitor let out a high pitched shriek when he touched the fence. The second lost bladder control and wet his clothes. The third babbled unintelligibly. The fourth did a dance. The fifth let out a deep pitched moan. Which visitor(s) responded appropriately and which visitor(s) responded inappropriately to the surge of electricity? If there were other visitors would they have responded as any of the first five or would their responses have been different?

Does the Bible tell of appropriate and inappropriate ways to respond to the Presence of God? John said that the world itself could not contain all the books if all that Jesus did were written. The Bible does not list ALL the ways that one might manifest the Holy Ghost. One should recognise revival, NOT by the manifestations, but by 1) the inner witness of the Holy Ghost at the meetings, 2) the Word of God that is being preached 3) true repentance (and the list could go on).

Having watched many Brownsville videos, including the official documentary, and at one time being a certified minister with the Assemblies of God, I can honestly say that the movement had the right intentions, but like most pentecostal meetings today, "experience" eventually took the upper hand and became the main focus. When this occurs, the line of demarcation between soul and spirit usually blurs and those without discernment invariably follow on after the soul.

When soul eclipses spirit, the Holy Spirit can make an exit and no one will notice. I think this is what eventually happened at Brownsville. Although some will argue that the Holy Spirit was never there to begin with, I fear to make such an absolute claim.

The danger with movements like Brownsville is the conditioning of believers to expect some sort of tangible experience from God to validate His presence over a meeting. Like a Pavlovian dog, a believer can be conditioned to associate loud music, dynamic preaching, illustrative testimonies and massive crowds as harbingers of Holy Spirit activity. The Spirit of Holiness will never allow Himself to be relegated to such a position which diverts attention from the glorification of Christ in all humility, sobriety and love.

Although Christ was preached at these meetings, and repentence from sin emphasized, I fear that Brownsville eventually became a force unto itself: "The Brownsville Revival"; DVDs were made, mechandise sold, almost making it comparable to a spiritual Disney attraction where an Unseen Host was expected to have a cameo appearance at some point, in the midst of all the rides and noise and excitement. The leaders of the revival understood this danger early on, I believe, but after some time were unable to stop the snowball effect.

PaulWest: "Although Christ was preached at these meetings, and repentence from sin emphasized, I fear that Brownsville eventually became a force unto itself: "The Brownsville Revival"; DVDs were made, mechandise sold, almost making it comparable to a spiritual Disney attraction where an Unseen Host was expected to have a cameo appearance at some point, in the midst of all the rides and noise and excitement. The leaders of the revival understood this danger early on, I believe, but after some time were unable to stop the snowball effect."

I don't know why Brownsville collapsed. The effects of previous revivals can still be seen today; however, there is nothing that I can see that has lasted from Brownsville. That being said; I made my previous post because the person who started this thread was making criticism and questioning the authenticity of Brownsville based on manifestations. Jesus didn't fit the description what the religious heirarchy of His day THOUGHT the Messiah should be. Because of this, they missed their Messiah. Sometimes those who talk about revival the most are the first to criticise revival when it comes. One of the key elements for experiencing revival is being OPEN to it! I realize that there are so many false teachers with "new revelations" out there; and so much of The Church wants to be on "the cutting edge" by accepting the latest fad in religion. We can not let that make us closed minded to a fresh new move of God.

It is very easy to judge any revival by it's most extreme elements and to come up with the conclusion that this was not God, and that it was a counterfeit. This happened in most of the great revivals throughout history. The Great Awakening was opposed by the most influential theologians of the day. Jonathan Edwards has some excellent writings on how we are to judge a move of God. Jessie Penn Lewis wrote "War on the Saints" with the help of Evan Roberts and it was based largely on the working of evil spirits during the Welsh revival. So it is not very difficult to find things in any move of God that are suspect, and then to label that thing as being false and even calling the whole work a counterfeit.

During the Brownsville revival, I was attending Glad Tidings Assembly of God in Lake Charles La. I along with many of my friends visited Brownsville on various occassions, as well as our church hosting some of the leaders at Brownsville. At this time, the Holy Spirit was moving greatly within our church body as well as in other churches in the area, and much of this was a result and effect of the Brownsville revival.

The fire of God was spreading among the young people, and many of them became bold witnesses for Jesus Christ. A good friend of mine that was involved in prison ministry with me is now pastoring a church in Lake Charles, and the Brownsville Revival had a tremendous positive affect on his ministry.

The messages by Steve Hill were some of the most powerful sermons on repentance and holiness that I have ever heard. Night after night the altars were full of backsliders and sinners that were under strong conviction, and experienced forgiveness and deliverance from their sins. God only knows how many thousands of people experienced the new birth as a result of these revival meetings. The fruit of the revival is still being seen today through the lives of those that the Holy Spirit apprehended and the fire of God purged and cleansed.

There were strong leaders in the Brownsville revival that were rooted and grounded in the Word and that not only preached the salvation message but instructed those that had been saved so that they would be established in the Christian faith. There are a large number of evangelistic meetings in which many people are coming to the Lord, but are not being discipled with the result that only a few of them are still waking with the Lord even a year later. At Brownsville there was instruction and teaching for the new converts.

John Kilpatrick who was the pastor of Brownsville Assembly of God allowed the Holy Spirit to move in the meetings, and the Lord had a vessel that He could work through in this man of God.

The preaching of Steve Hill, the teaching of Michael Brown, who was over the "school of ministry" was greatly used of the Lord during the yeas that the revival took place.

I thank God for what He did in my life during the years of the revival. The presence of God could often be felt outside the church as we got in line to attend the services. The praise and worship sometimes lasted for hours, and it was not uncommon to have services lasting until midnight and beyond. It is just that when you are in the presence of the Lord, you don't want to leave. My wife and I were always refreshed and renewed by the presence of the Lord from the meetings that we attended.

So it is true that you can find things wrong with the revival. You can find people that were in the flesh. You can get your eyes on manifestations such as shaking and laughing and totally miss what God was doing in the revival. There were some that came to the revival meetings with a critical and judgemental spirit that received absolutely nothing from the Lord. While not being ignorant of those fleshly manifestations, we were there to receive from the Lord whatever He had for us, and I thank God for the glorious things that He did in our lives and in the lives of thousands of people from all over the world during this revival.

Mike

I would say that the lasting effects from Brownsville, as in any religious event, would be on a personal level in certain individuals who had a genuine encounter with God. But irrespective of the time or place, I also acknowledge that God reserves His right to meet a seeker anywhere He may find him on this earth. This could happen at a thing like Brownsville, or it could happen in a parking lot at Wal-Mart. And it can happen (as it often does) in a quiet prison cell.

I agree with you about the criticisms, but I don't think that phariseeim is on par with doubting Brownsville's authenticity because of weird manifestations. The manifestations are not Jesus; they are simply aberations of an outward kind that some associate with God's moving. We have permission in God's Word to test all such occurences if they are being purported to have their foundations in God. The argument, therefore, is in the discernments of "testing" that certain people employ.

To one person, the manifestations are of God, but to another it may be "discerned" that they are not. Let each person be fully convinced and react accordingly in love; our salvation does not hinge on the acceptance or refusal of any manifestation. We are all at different stages in our walks, and some have more light than others in various areas of Christianity. Spiritual upbringing also plays a huge part in the seasoning of our "testing" of the spirits unfortunately. Those, for instance, brought up in a more mainstream Baptist/reformed setting might be less open to a "fresh move of God" than one from a charismatic setting, and when they deploy their spiritual antennea in "testing" they will intrinsically spin their dials on different frequency bands.

Following this thread through, I appreciate the sentiments on page 9 of all these posts. I know several people whose lives were impacted forever directly or indirectly by the Brownsville revival. It is an interesting and sobering study to research first-hand accounts of historic revivals and their eventual demise. I do not normally use this cliche, but when we are in a rut of religious ritual and observance week after month after year, we are not doing a lot of good for the Kingdom of God or a lot of damage to the kingdom of darkness. But when the Holy Spirit is given place in people's lives and people begin to be born again on a large scale, grow in the Lord, be filled with the Holy Spirit, be healed, etc., the enemy is going to fight it with all of his might. He cannot do this directly, but indirectly, through people. As a result one finds with every major historical revival both accounts of great genuine acts of God and also excesses and problems as the enemy gets in the mix via people.

As to Steve Hill, I have personally been challenged and convicted by his sermons and teaching. My son went to an internationally known Bible College at the same time as Mr. Hill's daughter and had the opportunity to interact with her regularly in social situations. The level of holiness and sold out dedication that she demonstrated was phenomenal. She would often boldly stand up and lead the groups she was with away from compromise of all types. It was apparent to my son that Mr. Hill's teaching and training of his own children was spot on.

SI has the potential of being a fantastic place for believers to discuss scripture, learn from one another, and grow in their faith. Believe me, there is not a single one of us who has it right in all areas and needs not to be taught and have his or her opinions changed. I recall being a thirty year old high school teacher and having a gentle, sweet 17 year old girl answer some of my arguments and be used of God to cause me to go to scripture and have my opinion changed on a very key doctrinal issue. I was the adult, the teacher, and the more experienced in the Word. I could have bowed up and held my own opinions too closely, but I chose to believe that I did not have a corner on the truth, and God used that girl to help me grow.

When we make it our goal to "discern" error and expose it, to protect and advance our own denominational slant, to argue our own opinion at any cost, we stifle our own spiritual growth and leave a foul taste in the mouths of the lost. Is there a place to confront obvious error? Absolutely. But knowing the truth sets us free, not exposing the error. The truth empowered by the Holy Spirit has a way of confronting error all by itself with little input from us. Oh that our goal would be the passionate pursuit of our God and our Savior and a relentless quest for the truth and a commitment to allowing that truth to transform our lives no matter the cost to us.

PaulWest: I would say that the lasting effects from Brownsville, as in any religious event, would be on a personal level in certain individuals who had a genuine encounter with God.

Me: True. My point was The Great Awakening shut down the taverns of that time, the Wesleys established a movement that outlived them as did the Azuza Street Revival. Unfortunately, the Brownsville Revival kind of fizzled after the meetings. There's no movement, no Brownsville-style meetings that are occuring all over the country or any other sign that Brownsville ever happened.

PaulWest: I agree with you about the criticisms, but I don't think that phariseeim is on par with doubting Brownsville's authenticity because of weird manifestations. The manifestations are not Jesus; they are simply aberations of an outward kind that some associate with God's moving. We have permission in God's Word to test all such occurences if they are being purported to have their foundations in God. The argument, therefore, is in the discernments of "testing" that certain people employ.

I wasn't accusing anyone of phariseeism, I was just pointing out that EVERY real move of God, from Jesus until today has been questioned by established religion. Every revival has also had its share of fakes and phonies on board as well. My point was that when one is judging the authenticity of a revival; "manifestations" are on the periphery and are certainly not enough evidence to create a case against a movement. I attended a meeting at Brownsville and saw a lot of footage. The "manifestations" were a minute part of what was happening there. Allison Ward's testimony set the record straight as to what Brownsville was about. She came to the podium shaking and John Kilpatrick began trying to explain away the phenomenon. When Allison began to speak, it wasn't about the physical manifestation it was about having a burden for lost souls. Before she could finish speaking, the whole meeting erupted in wailing, sobbing and moaning for lost souls as 2500 people went to the floor.