Popular TV preachers

Popular TV preachersJoyce Meyer is one of America's best-known prosperity-gospel TV ministers - preachers who teach that personal wealth can be attained through a strong faith in God and a strict adherence to the Bible. Following is an alphabetical list of a new wave of popular word-faith ministers who have used television to build large followings: Juanita Bynum Headquarters: Waycross, Ga. Reach: Her program, "Weapons of Power," is seen worldwide on TBN; she holds conferences throughout the United States. Wealth: No information available. In the news: In April, Bynum married Thomas Wesley Weeks III in the palatial Regent Wall Street Hotel in New York City. The ceremony featured a wedding party of 80, a platinum-colored satin bridal gown with a bodice covered in Swarovski crystals and a 7.76-carat diamond ring. Kenneth and Gloria Copeland Headquarters: Fort Worth, Texas Reach: Ministry Web site says its TV show, "Believer's Voice of Victory," is seen by more than 76 million households on nearly 700 U.S. stations. Show also airs on about 135 international stations. Wealth: A ministry official estimates the ministry's annual revenue at $70 million. In the news: In June, the Copelands joined four other TV preachers who gathered around Oral Roberts, 85, considered the grandfather of the prosperity gospel, to pray for healing the failing founder of the university that bears his name. Jan and Paul Crouch Headquarters: Costa Mesa, Calif. Reach: The Crouches are owners of Trinity Broadcast Network, the world's largest Christian TV network. TBN reaches millions of viewers on more than 5,000 TV stations and 33 international satellites around the world. Wealth: The Crouches and their son Paul Crouch Jr. said they earned a total of $855,000 last year. TBN's annual income exceeds $100 million a year, according to the Los Angeles Times. The ministry provides the Crouches a $10 million, 80-acre, eight-home ranch near Dallas and two Land Rovers that the Crouches drive. In 2001, the couple bought a $5 million oceanfront estate in Newport Beach, Calif. In the news: The ministry recently purchased the Nashville, Tenn., home and estate of the late country music performer Conway Twitty and opened Trinity Music City USA as a tourist attraction there. Creflo Dollar Headquarters: College Park, Ga. Reach: Dollar's "Changing Your World" TV program on TBN reaches 150 countries. Wealth: The ministry's income is unavailable, but newspaper accounts say the ministry paid $18 million in cash for his new 8,000-seat World Changers Church International on the southern edge of Atlanta. He drives a black Rolls-Royce and travels in a $5 million private jet. In the news: Dollar's ministry became a focus of a court case involving boxer Evander Holyfield in 1999. The lawyer for Holyfield's ex-wife estimated that the fighter gave Dollar's ministry $7 million. Dollar refused to testify in the case. Marilyn Hickey Headquarters: Denver Reach: Her TV show, "Today with Marilyn," on the TBN and Black Entertainment Television networks can be seen around the world. She has offices in England, South Africa and Australia, and is on the board of Oral Roberts University. Wealth: Her ministry occupies a 260,000-square-foot former shopping mall in Denver. No information on ministry or her personal wealth is available. In the news: She has been dubbed the "fairy godmother of the word-faith movement" and "the mistress of mail-order madness," by the Texas-based Christian Sentinel, a ministry that monitors what it calls "religious deception." Hickey got the "mistress" name for her use of trinkets - blessed cornmeal, cloths, seeds and coins - sent out to followers to urge them to send in money. Benny Hinn Headquarters: Grapevine, Texas Reach: Hinn's "This is Your Day" program is seen throughout the United States and in nearly 200 foreign countries. Wealth: The ministry took in $60 million in 2001. A news story earlier this year in the Colorado Springs Gazette said annual income now exceeds $90 million. Hinn told CNN in 1997 that he drew an annual salary of $500,000 to $1 million a year. He has a $3.5 million home in the Los Angeles area and drives an $80,000 Mercedes-Benz G500. In the news: A "Dateline" segment on NBC examined five of Hinn's faith-healing "miracles," showing that none of the people was cured and that one woman with lung cancer died nine months later. Rodney Howard-Browne Headquarters: The River at Tampa Bay, Tampa, Fla. Reach: His live broadcasts from his River at Tampa Bay Church stream online on his Internet site www.revival.com and can be seen worldwide. Wealth: He and his wife, Adonica, oversee his $16 million church, which they founded in 1996. The couple live in a six-bedroom, four-bath lakefront home on Cory Lake in northwest Tampa. The home includes a dock, spa, pool and gazebo. In the news: Howard-Browne has called himself the "bartender of holy laughter." Holy laughter was a controversial movement that swept evangelical circles in the mid-1990s. He would walk on stage laughing uncontrollably. The congregation would begin laughing. Howard-Browne would sweep his arm toward the crowd. People would appear "drunk on the Holy Spirit" and slide out of their chairs or dance in the aisles. T.D. Jakes Headquarters: Dallas Reach: Jakes' "The Potter's House" TV program is seen throughout the world on TBN and Black Entertainment Television. His ministry boasts more than 26,000 members. A rally at the Georgia Dome in 1999 drew more than 100,000 people. Wealth: He has mansions in Charleston, W.Va., and Dallas. In the news: Called the best preacher in America by Time magazine in 2001. Robert Tilton Headquarters: Miami Reach: He once ran his Farmers Branch Church in Dallas before scandal toppled it in the early 1990s. His show now airs on Black Entertainment Television and has a potential audience of 74 million homes. Wealth: He is building a two-story home on a $1.39 million oceanfront lot on an island in Biscayne Bay off Miami Beach, and his ministry owns a 50-foot yacht. His ministry takes in about $24 million a year. In the news: Tilton is rebounding after his ministry collapsed in scandal a decade ago amid news reports that prayer requests he said he personally prayed over were found in a trash bin after the money, food stamps and rings had been removed. Randy and Paula White Headquarters: The Without Walls International Church, Tampa, Fla. Reach: The "Paula White Today" TV show can be seen worldwide on TBN and Black Entertainment Television. The ministry's Operation Explosion travels into public housing complexes with "rolling theatre-style pink trucks" to share Christianity in a Nickelodeon-type program for underprivileged children. Wealth: The Whites live in a $2.1 million, 8,000-square-foot home facing Tampa Bay. Their ministry owns a jet airplane, a Cadillac Escalade and a Mercedes-Benz sedan. In the news: Paula White calls Joyce Meyer her mentor; Meyer visited their church in September.

BRETHRENi'be been reading this book called "pagan Christianty" and it's been very interesting. one of the things that is discussed is that there is no scriptural basis for anyone who preaches the word of God to do it for pay. Paul himself said that we are unlike so many others who peddle God's word for money. as i was led through the Acts of the Holy Spirit i read about Paul's stay in Rome and how he worked as a tentmaker to pay his own way. When he left there he told the people that he didn't ask for anyone's gold or silver but worked instead. all these people whom the Lord called to work for Him never wanted for anything as the Lord made every provision for them. Christ wouldn't have horded money for Himself and i know for sure that He didn't hang on a cross and die so that you and i could like like pashas while others about us starve to death. as surely as the Lord lives those who have been poor stewards of God's wealth will suffer whatever wrath He has for them. let us fall on our faces and repent before a Holy God.AMEN

Dear friends, I'm personnally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Should we not be nervous to judge others less the wrath of God fall on us? I was a Benny Hinn partner for many years. I have received many blessings from this man of God. Recently, after some praying, I sent them a letter asking to be removed from their mailing list. I explained the reasons, but I dared not judge them. I don't understand everything they do and why. But shouldn't we let the Lord deal with His servants? Martin

Well, We must remember that there can be excess on both sides. As a Minister I do not preach "for money". However, the bible clearly teaches that the workman is worthy of his hire, and I absolutely despise those whose goal is to keep the pastor poor! Even Paul taught that those who minister of the gospel should live of the gospel, and explained that there were extenuating circumstances around why he did not take support. The reason I am saying this is because there is a strong temptation in many minds to "throw out the baby with the bathwater." That means that we tend to over react to abuses or errors.How do we balance? We adjust a minister's salary to that which is just above middle of those in the Church. In other words the Church should determine the average wage of those who are members and pay the Pastor equal to just above the middle range.Also, any ministry that is of God will make sure that Jesus Christ receives all the glory for any good done. I believe a pastor should get enough money to live and pay bills just like everyone else, and if God gives extra blessings, GREAT! However, I don't believe any minister of God should be flashing gold rings, fancy cars and expensive clothes to show off their income.

My last chruch literally tried to starve me out. I was preaching righteousness and they wanted to glorify their flesh -- I want to know where the book is that talks about bad congregations or lists the top 10 worst congragations in Ameica and Canada. Listen I make enoguh money to get by and have a roof over my head and I am content, but I simply do not think that the idea that pastors should be a free ride for the church is Biblical either. Paul said that he had a right to take money for what he did -- BUT CHOSE NOT TO. Ironman,1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. I am curious what the writer of the book you read makes of this verse. The phrase 'double honor' is a clear reference to both respect and monitary remuniration for services. that's Greek scholarship not me talking. Now thoughout 1 Timothy is a constant emphasis on leaders not being greedy -- why? If the early leaders didn't recieve anything for their services -- greedy people would never be attracted to the ministry. The fact is there was money in the ministry even in the 1st century and some were taking advantage of it and Paul was telling Timothy a way of dealing with it.Many of the men on this list I have doctrinal difference with and I don't like some of their character issues either. Many also violate modesty in the sense of being flashy. False preachers and prophets -- yep there on this list too. How to deal with them -- ignore them and turn them off -- that is their lifeblood. As long as people watch them they stay in business.Blessings.

martymill wrote:Dear friends, I'm personnally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Should we not be nervous to judge others less the wrath of God fall on us? I totally agree with you there Brother! Personally I feel if were going to Judge them we should not have "any" sin in our life is this any different than the scripture, John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her."

bro Sir Edwardi thank the Lord for your response. yesterday i had been reading in the letter to the corinthians and it touched on this very topic in chapter 9. Paul talks about being entintled to food and drink for such work and material benefits from the preaching of the gospel. the Lord reminded me of this as i read your reply rather than a couple of hours ago when i posted my first response :-? the Lord has a way of letting me go off half-cock sometimes so i can be corrected and i do thank Him for that. the writer didn't make any mention of the verse in timothy you mentioned.at any rate it is clear that whoever is sent of God has a right to be provided for in some way by those whom he is sent to. if one doesn't make use of this though then one has to work as Paul did in rome. i feel though that in this case Paul was content to work as a tentmaker (and receive the reward of the priviledge of preaching the gospel) rather than draw from that right to be provided for as a preacher of the word and i feel that when the Lord sends me out to do so then He'd have me do that. as i read through the scripture you mentioned i saw clearly that the Lord makes provision for His workers either by providing them with a job so bills can be paid but also by softening the hearts of those who receive the word to give so that God's man can be maintained. i'm with you on the flashiness aspect. the workers of the Lord should receive some benefit though 2 rolls royces and multi-million dollar homes makes no sense...especially when there are many out there who are in need......smacks os empire building rather than kingdom building to mei stand corrected brethren. it's good to be on s.i. the Lord can teach one so much...God bless

Ironman I like what you have been addressing here. Remember that Paul earned his own keep by tentmaking. While it is scripturally correct to help those who are in need as they spread the gospel, the fact is that all believers are supposed to be in full time ministry. This it the call of the Lord on every follower of Christ, not just a few. If indeed some are called to pastor does this indicate that some should earn their living from the gospel. All are equal in the body of Christ. Paul speaks about that in 1 Cor. 9:16 onward. So while I don't think it is wrong to help a fellow believer out as they are spreading the gospel whichever way they feel called, I don't see the need for some in the body of Christ to earn a living off of the Gospel while others work earning their own living and spreading the Gospel.I think about it this way. Christ gives us salvation freely to those who believe ~> yet we sell His Gospel message and earn a living from it, and raise money on behalf of it.

brethrenwhat has happened here is that gross error on the part of the servants of God (or who purport themselves to be) has been pointed out. their lavish lifestyles are not the way Christ lived nor the apostles nor should we ourselves strive to live as such. this can be a big obstacle to winning souls for Christ because even an unbeliever can see that here is something fishy there...judging involves not just pointing out error but then PUNISHING it also. if you see how the word judge is used in scripture you'll find that the Lord points out the error and then administers the fitting punishment, that is judgement. let's not hide behind the scripture in John 8:7 by twisting it and using it as an excuse to shy from pointing out error in eachother when the Holy Spirit led to. Paul said that even he didn't do the things which were good that he wanted to but did the evil which he didnt want to do and yet he railed against sin as the Lord led him to. let's not punk out of calling out sin when the Holy Spirit leads. if we follow that logic then noone would be able to say anything at all about sin,where would we be then? :-? that scripture is an exhortation to remind us not to punish others rashly because we don't have all the facts. i did a little digging on that scripture and the law of moses did say that the woman should be put to death but not that she be stoned so unless she was either married, about to be or a priest's daughter,the people here were not applying this law correctly in the first place. the woman here was guilty without doubt but i'm convinced she was convicted of her sin and repented and received forgiveness from Christ. brethren when the Lord leads we should expose error wherever it may be found, first in ourselves and then also in others so that we may come to the place where the Lord would have us.

bro Onfirein light of what Paul wrote in Corinthians about the worker being worth his keep perhaps we should also take into consideration how well one is working for the Lord? also i don't think that those who did receive aid from the people they were sent to were given a free ticket, did they not find work elsewhere also? can someone shed some light on that?you brought up a good point in that we all should be working actively in the body of Christ.this has been hindered by the current church setup. we tend to let the pastor do most of the work when we should really be fully participating in the meeting when we come together and fellowhship. when the church met in the early days, they allowed Holy Spirit to come in and move as God would have Him move so that all could participate hence the exhortations about prophesying in tongues and order in the meetings.bro Paul says though that one who preaches is entitled some some kinda reward from that and reap some material benefits (though not hording millions of dollars) though i think he's saying this from the standpoint of one who labours for the church as tirelessly as the Lord led him to, maybe the reward goes with how much work the servant has done?i pray we seek the Lord's counsel on this...my head is beginning to hurt :-?

IRONMAN wrote:let's not hide behind the scripture in John 8:7 by twisting it and using it as an excuse to shy from pointing out error in eachother when the Holy Spirit led to. Yea lets not twist any scripture no one does that here :-P Also we each have the Holy Spirit within us if were saved and the one in me is not pointing anything out to me personally to point out any error, sometimes folks think the Holy Spirit speaks to one speaks to all the same but I don't think the Holy Spirit I know of works like that, I think the Holy Spirit talks to each one as individuals, and until I personally hear the Holy Spirit within me tell me to point out any error to anyone I will keep my mouth shut been working good for me for the past 25 years so I will continue to have this attitude. :-)

Though there is a multitude of threads in this regard it is difficult to keep silent here.Having come out from underneath many of the aforementioned names and the whole of this brand of 'theology' I don't find any sympathy whatsoever in any of this. There a few others around here who have come out of similar constructs.It is a rather painful matter to go back and retread all this here, would recommend doing a search on some of these names and reading the thoughts expressed.Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin. There are lives being affected by all this, attempting to dislodge one from something of this sort is very difficult ...The audacity and flippancy alone ought to be telling enough. The money being bilked out of the unsuspecting, the vulnerable, and yes even the ignorant (would class myself in the latter) is the height of audacity. There is no middle ground here, to try and make scriptural precepts for this kind of nonsense is beyond reason and it is weary to hear it.I'm personally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Should we not be nervous to judge others less the wrath of God fall on us? Again, read through some of the horror story's on Benny Hinn for starters. Hiding behind the scriptures is no warrant for not calling these purporters on the carpet. Have been on both extremes of this, from sucked into it all to the opposite, raging, bitter and while deeply grieved over it all, still it was an unhealthy and sinful anger at times.This is a case where both the baby and the bathwater need to go. The very people being led astray are the ones that will and do foot the bill for this, in many, many different ways. Yes we are called to bring justice and expose that which is misleading those the Lord died to save. This is a false gospel and a false Christ that they are selling, note that, selling.

crsschk wrote:Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin. And I totally agree with you on this statement, but I also truly believe that the Lord has some called to do this that can express this in a Godly manner and get the message across to the folks in Love that need to know and on the other hand I also believe "not all" are called to do so that is why we all need to listen to the Holy Spirit within us and I hope all would agree that we all need to listen to what the Holy Spirit within us is leading us to do, I sure would not want to suggest to anyone that I think that the Spirit within you is leading you to do something, unless of course I was God. :-)

bro billYea lets not twist any scripture no one does that here Also we each have the Holy Spirit within us if were saved and the one in me is not pointing anything out to me personally to point out any error, sometimes folks think the Holy Spirit speaks to one speaks to all the same but I don't think the Holy Spirit I know of works like that, I think the Holy Spirit talks to each one as individuals, and until I personally hear the Holy Spirit within me tell me to point out any error to anyone I will keep my mouth shut been working good for me for the past 25 years so I will continue to have this attitude. if you feel that the Lord hasn't led you to expose error very well, do as the Lord has instructed you to do in all dilligence but we should all be weary that our reluctance to do things is not because our hearts have been hardened due to disobedience, i've had some situations in which the Lord told me to do something and i didn't and later on was rebuked for it.

I hope all would agree that we all need to listen to what the Holy Spirit within us is leading us to doConcur wholeheartedly brother. This whole matter has become one perhaps of a settled 'sternness' if I might press it that way. It was most certainly the more passionate and even if on the verge of a anger, righteous indignation, however it might be recognized. It was those voices that ultimately got my attention and I believe what was back of it was truly love and concern borne out of it.

IRONMAN wrote: i've had some situations in which the Lord told me to do something and i didn't and later on was rebuked for it. I bet everyone here has been there done that, so did I miss the something here? :-P

Ironman ~> You're correct that the current church system has a hierarchy in it that I do not believe that Christ established for His Church. If you look at the example that Christ gave us. He took a dozen + men and women and taught them to be His followers. Today we have one person with the job title of Pastor who takes on many more all at once. This was also a good point that you made concerning those who were assisted. They weren't given a free ride where they went. Bottom line; are we not to trust God for providing our needs both financially and spiritually? It seems that many who have taken on a carreer in ministry trust man for their provisions more so than God. In regards to my own life. God provides me with a carreer and in turn I devote my life daily to spreading the truth of what He teaches me and how His Spirit guides me. I don't have to pass the offering plate to spread the Gospel message. In regards to prosperity T.V. preachers, they have unfortunately the right to do what they do. Besides the money that they are receiving we need to be very concerned about the twisting of truth. We have to return to the way that Christ established things to be in His Church. Christ is the Shepherd not man. That means He is the only Pastor we need. Any pastoring comes directly through Him and He anoints people to pastor our spiritual needs. We have to question ourselves and our circumstances. How is it that someone who only sees us from the front of a building once a week or someone who mildly knows of our concerns or someone preaching over T.V. can possibly know what our spiritual needs are? Jesus Christ built relationships with the people that He pastored. He still wants to. Pastoring comes from those who are spiritually mature and from those in whom we have built up a relationship with in the body of Christ.

Onfire, quite an awesome message you wrote there, You know I don't personally have as much a problem with a Pastor preaching prosperity , than I do with one needing to live in a 5 million dollar home, I just have never ever experienced anyone that when they come into a lot of money it has not changed them for the worse, and I don't mean they necessarily jumped off the deep end they just were not as humble as they were before. Bottom line is I just don't think Gods idea of a great Pastor is for one to be a multi millionaire because you would have to be an awful unique person not to let the almighty dollar go to your head some. You know when I was growing up in the 50's our Church provided the pastor with a home as long as he was the pastor at that church what happened to that idea? I just don't know about all this but I do know God is still in control and he can and will do what he needs to do to get all this straightened out no doubt.

It is only slightly more interesting that the attention is given to the preacher\\teacher than to the subjects underneath them, those being led astray. That the discussions tend towards the maligning of character, the scriptural warrant of whether such a thing as extravagance and fleecing the flock is a consideration... While the sheep are left out in the cold or led to the slaughter. The ramifications pushed aside, the fear of men or a preponderance of pride. It just seems to be missing the whole point and not addressing the issue.And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. Joh 2:13-17 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. And when even was come, he went out of the city. And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. Mar 11:12-22

Mr. Bill ~> I agree with you that people coming into a lot of money does indeed change people. What I see is the problem is that people start changing that way even before the money starts increasing. Pride is something that every person needs to be watchful of if they are in any kind of leadership role in the Church. People get stuck on money as being a problem but there are so many other ways that man lusts for success in the eyes of others. It's a problem because it's sure not the humble charachter that Christ displayed and wants us to have in following Him. Personally, I believe that money is one area. The need to be elevated to a position before man is a big problem that people have. In my view they are glorifying themselves and glorifying their own works more than God. Without even money being involved it seems that many like to have that status above others, and they refer it as their "calling." When Christ calls someone to service He doesn't raise them above others. We're all equals in the Kingdom. Even those of spiritually maturity are no better than the new born believer. If all who choose to follow Christ are called to being vessels for Him to minister through us than why should only some be "blessed" financially more so than others. As a side note, the most effective pastoring that I have experienced in my life has come from people who are not elevated in any congregation to any level of status or title. They were humble servants of God who were willing to deliver what they believed to be a message and be used by God to help meet my spiritual needs. So what I'm saying is that it isn't just money that drives people to change. It's that lust for power/control over others in the body of Christ. Those ones that get a million dollar home have become very successful at working the crowds. The sad part is that your local small town congregational preacher must work the crowds as well to pay the bills for the church building fund as well as his/her salary and that of others. I believe that there are many who are sincere in their desire to spread the gospel, but unfortunately they get swept up by the business that is involved in the institutionalization of the Church. Before long spiritual matters are less important than increasing numbers, status and maintaining a successful organization.It's very easy when you are placed on a pedestal whether that be to preach or lead in any other function, to be a worship leader. People are looking at you. For some people that adulation feeds something dangerous. For the truly spiritual minded follower when they see people lifting them up in any form of status the humbleness in them kicks in and they feel the need to step away. We humbly step away so that people see only Christ and not us.

All,When it comes to God's servants, even the apostles were very much concerned with who was and who was not a servant of God. Paul is said to have delivered some over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, there are several times that he says that people should be cast out of the church until they repented. (1 Corinthian 5 comes to mind). Love without discipline is not corrective. Jude and Peter I think have an answer for us in how to deal with these things. I believe that based on Jude and 1st Peter we should call people what they are -- in error (note you will take flak for standing for the truth)and that we ourselves should not get so interested in correction that we feel the need to address it all the time. Correction is not a ministry -- it is part of it, but not one in and of itself. I believe that Matthew 18:15-18 should be followed if possible but if not Peter and Jude did warn the people about these 'wells without water' for the people's sake. Silence can be deadly. I offer the following advice to those that see error and want to address it.1) Make sure you are right. Check what the stated person said or get the facts about the event from reliable sources and then check the Word and double check the Word to see if you are right. 2) Pray -- that you spirit will be right and that you will be guided by the Spirit. That you purpose will to correct and not be right. Pray until the Spirit directs you to Go3) Keep your rebuke Biblical -- your own opinions do not matter. Use the Bible properly, don't read in your own meaning, but use the Bible.4) Let it go when it is time to let it go. Once the matter is dealt with and you have followed Matthew 18 as much as possible -- if the person does not see the problem -- let them go. You have done all you can. Let the Word and the Spirit work.Blessings.

Amen! Why has the Church forgotten this so much about knowing someone by their fruit? Possibly they are not even living by faith. Where has the love gone for our fellow human beings that seem to be more concerned to convince people by rituals and symbolism that they already have faith than if they even have faith. There is far too much assumptions that people are living by faith. People show up at at a religious observance at church and we assume they must have faith so we take them through countless rituals.Sir Edward mentioned something that all of us could be doing with others who are living a carnal lifestyle. Delivering someone to Satan doesn't mean put them in a taxi and send them to a Satanic coven. It means we are supposed to speak God's truth to them, if they refuse than we are to let them go and let the Spirit of God convict them. If they repent and turn back than they'll be better off for it. Sorry, I paraphrased an important scripture. I realize there is more to it than just that.

bro YeshuaHave we forgoten that Jesus has a women who MANAGED HIS MONEY? Jesus was paid by women.didn't judas mind the treasury for the disciples? where does the word say Jesus was paid by women...and for what? not that i've read the whole bible but i don't remember reading anything like that.not sure what you meant about Paul being added by the church of philipi. could you explain further?

bro Onfirethe Lord does make provision for His workers whether it is by providing some sort of employment or by softening the hearts of the flock the worker is sent to to give as they can. personally knowing my own character i'd probably be like Paul by not taking any help in Rome but at the end of the day we should be sure of what the Lord would have us do in such situations. bro when you spoke of the unliklihood of a t.v. preacher or preacher at a local church knowing our spiritual needs without knowing us well i felt you there. this is how the early church was, when they gathered the Holy Spirit moved in them and through them and as they fellowshipped they got to know one another to the point where they could confess their sins to one another. it's no accident that Christ had the church set up to be communal. i feel we must return to those roots and also that the Lord will see to it by any means necessary.

bro mike you bring up a good point in that we should also adress the flock and we do at times get carried away and neglect that. i feel though that lack of submission to the Holy Spirit is key in this. if we would only submit then He'd lead us into what we should do in light of all these things. also most people aren't diligent about studying the word either so that they may be used to question certain things. then we're not too fond of rocking the boat...but the one we worship straight up tipped that boat over...let us all seek the leadings of the Spirit of God to address these things. if we are led to jump up and object in the middle of a sermon then let us not shy from that. let us fall on our faces and diligently seek the Lord on what we should do.AMEN

Right on Ironman! It is shocking to me how the Lord provides for me in my life. I am a self employed business man and I have seen how the Lord has used my business as a tool to reach others. That would include my business partner and employees. You are correct in that Paul in fact did ask congregations of The Church to set aside money for his missionary journeys so he could help others. I believe that God does indeed soften the hearts of people to help those who are in need as they spread the gospel. The way that is being done these days seems to be far different than the way it was originally established.I agree that we need to return to those roots and I believe that those who are serious God is more than willing to help them out to reach that goal of restoring what He originally established in His Church. Unfortunately, so many want only want man has created.

martymill wrote:Dear friends, I'm personnally weary of these kinds of posts. Are we called upon or even qualified to expose servants of the Lord publicly? Maybe your question should be are we "called" to expose servants of the Lord publicly? And my answer to that if that were the question is, that I am not called or the Holy Spirit within me has not told me to do this and until I hear so I will just keep my mouth shut and personally, I have more important things that the Spirit is having me move towards these days and I don't want to interject what I feel like I should be doing because Man thinks so, I will continue to let the Holy Spirit drive, I tried driving once and I am not getting back into the drivers seat ever again been there done that nothing ever worked out right. :-?

MrBillPro,I can't see from Scripture that we are 'called to such a thing -- but when it is seen we should not do what the majority in the church has done for years -- nothing. If it is a matter brought to your attention though and you know the truth --saying nothing with good intentions can be very damaging to others.I am with you in that I have bigger fish to fry most days than to run arround looking for heritics to expose. I beleive a simple look at the Word of God can correct a lot. Done with a lot of grace. Most people I know about I don't have power to do anything about -- Benny Hinn and some of the other mentioned in this thread I simply don't have the power to stop. But I do influence some that might follow them into error --for these I can do something when the opportunity presents itself.Nope -- don't see witch hunter listed with the other ministries in the Bible, but ialso don't seen stick yor head in the sand either. Like many things in Christianity -- the narrow road sometimes requires us to walk with balance.Blessings.

I am thankful that there are those out there that do expose wrong teaching and money loundering. When i was a teen i joined a very legalistic group and off-course they abused their finances. When God opened my eyes, He got me out of there and part of that process came about because there were people who stood up to Godly principles and i understood why there was deception. Personally, i don't see Jesus doing a ministry and be in luxorious living with his own jet, houses, and multiple cars, etc using the offerings of the poor widow's mite.

I once heard a prosperity preacher say that Jesus was rich, so rich he had to have someone else handle his money.... what does everyone think of that?

Mat 19:23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." Psalm 140:12

paula4jc wrote:Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." Psalm 140:12Paula, I think the Lord probably understood really well how tough it would be for "man" to act right be humble and kind to his fellow man and all the other nice things folks should do when you have a lot of money, I feel that scripture was a reminder to those that are rich to not forget who's money it is anyway. I don't think the Lord was meaning that it's not good to be rich as long as you don't forget who was responsible for getting your there, maybe I am wrong, this is just what my spirit at this time was telling me. :-)

I once heard a prosperity preacher say that Jesus was rich, so rich he had to have someone else handle his money.... what does everyone think of that? bro yeshua said something about Christ having the women manage the money which He got from other women and i'm waiting for him to clear that up for me. he's busy with exams...don't fry your brain bro yeshua

While the sheep are left out in the cold or led to the slaughter … we should not do what the majority in the church has done for years -- nothing Christians have no reservations about storming the streets and parliaments demanding justice for the abortionists, that gays not be allowed to marry, or demanding their right to sing Christmas carols.But I am appalled the you never see Christians demanding that people like Benny Hinn be stopped from robbing countless people, be held accountable for his evil deeds, and be required to make restitution. Instead, the churches just let this kind of evil go on and on, while saying nothing. Meanwhile gullible people are following them, convinced that what they say must be true. And how many are getting led to the slaughter, while Christians just let this happen. If you raise the issue they may say, he must be doing some good, he is preaching the gospel (???)Church leaders should wake up to the fact that these convincing TV preachers are steeling their sheep – ie, steeling the hearts of their flock. Diane

Matthew 6:19Talks about not storing up on earth wealth. How does this relate to what communities of Christians are doing today? The wealth of the prosperity preachers is akin to the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church and every single denomination. If you really think about the money that goes into paying the wages and maintaining the buildings that Christians have that money could be used far better to advance the Kingdom without being hoarded into separate church bank accounts and used so individual Christian communities stored up wealth here on earth. When you think about money in the terms of the ratio that is brought into some ministry. Take a church of 100 people and half those are donating to the cause. If those half donate $200. each per month the church staff alone could consume well over half the monthly income. Another big chunk goes to maintaining what the congregation jointly owns in earthly wealth. This is just a small scale but even in that small scale the majority of money received goes back into preserving the wealth of that congregation and taking care of itself. It is not really used to advance the Kingdom, or not a substantial percentage of it anyway. What I'm saying is that small town churches struggling to keep their earthly things intact are in the same boat as the prosperity teachers as well as the wealth of the country of the Holy See.It's easy to point out the prosperity ones because they are more obvious. And it's easier to excuse the expensives that drift away trying to maintain pastor salaries and building and program improvements. How much are the local evangelical minded small congregations really putting out to advance the Kingdom and to share with the poor and the widow?

roadsign wrote:Church leaders should wake up to the fact that these convincing TV preachers are steeling their sheep – ie, steeling the hearts of their flock. DianeMaybe this is a test of your faith in your Pastor and I feel only the weak sheep are being stolen, If you are faithful and have the faith of a mustard seed in were God has you, you are good to go if only you and your Pastor are at church every Sunday. Personally I feel that no man can steal any onfire,faithful,God loving, God Fearing child of God from any Church period big or small. Now if someone feels that were they are they are not being feed enough, well even a dog will jump the fence if not feed properly, so to leave were you are and go somewhere else would probably be the right thing to do, just listen to the still small voice to direct you that would be my advise.

Diane ~> I understand what you're saying. In my opinion if you're unable to clean up your own backyard it's going to be tougher to clean up your neighbours too. However, it's sometimes easier to see the mess in your neighbours yard while not seeing your own.There are plenty of congregations of The Church that continuously pick on the congregations around them. They understand that the other group have doctrinal errors, but they cannot for some reason speak up. I believe it is because they are unwilling to start at home cleaning their own doctrinal errors. Church leaders should more importantly realize that anyone living by faith belong to Christ and they are His sheep. Church leaders are to be nothing more than empty vessels from whom Christ uses to pastor and shepherd His flock. Christ's sheep do not belong to human leaders. This is one of the biggest problem and leaders and Pastors of churches have the same mentality as properity teachers many times when they believe they have some ownership over "their flock." First and foremost, there is and always will be only one Pastor/Shepherd and He is Christ and if a person is called to lead that means that Christ is really the one pastoring His sheep. Like what Mr. Bill said; about the feeding of the flock. Probably the best thing that many church leaders could do is wake up. However, I believe that you cannot lead someone somewhere that you have not gone before. Possibly those church leaders are used to eating out of the same pasture that the other sheep are. When the wolf comes to entice of course the food looks good to the sheep and they followe. People do not know the true Shepherds voice anymore. They are too used to listening to the doctrinal imaginations of other sheep. You raised a very good point when you said, "he is preaching the gospel." To them I would ask what is the gospel than. Is the gospel message about turning to Christ by faith or to man by faith. Unfortunately, many denominations expect the very same thing out of who they call their sheep. They expect people to become members of their organized church, sign on the dotted line, be devoted to the work of that ministry. Many times church leaders are guilty of holding Christ's sheep captive to their particular doctrines, styles of worship etc. In the end people have more faith in their leaders and denominations than they do in Christ. It's time we let Christ feed His sheep rather than trying to confine them to our corner of the pasture and feed them the specific doctrines of our congregation and try to convince them that that is what truth is.

I believe Benny Hinn, etc..etc. (WoF and Prosperity Preachers) are preaching the gospel. It's the same seed. There is just different ways to present it. And to promote Genuine Christians that's not the way, but PEOPLE DO GET saved in their meetings.80% of you might say 'how' ha! That's the same way you got saved. When benny gives the presentation of the gospel, he doesn't say 'Accept Jesus you get a big car' he stats numerous other things 'eternal life the greatest gift'. Benny and the rest of the WoF people are preaching the SAME Jesus, the Same Resurrection and the Same way to enter heaven.Paul warns of false preachers and such, but he said that they preach a 'different' Christ.Just cause they preach 'big money' doesn't mean they lie, they just don't clarify that 'few' receive such blessings. They fail to mention the verse in Malichi (sp?) where it not only says 'I will pour out my blessings from heaven' but they forget this part 'or rebuke the devourer'.Christ will take away some things from them in the Kingdom. But as I've said NUMEROUS times on this forum, we are TO REJOICE BECAUSE THE GOSPEL IS BEING PREACHED.Brother you are mistaken about this. These men are ravenous wolves disguised as ministers of righteousness. They are ABSOLUTELY preaching a different gospel and another Jesus. Please listen to the following sermon for theses men put it much more eloquently than I ever could. I hope after listening to these you will see were the errors in your thinking lies. If you have any questions regarding these sermon, myself and I'm sure many other on this forum will be willing to help you understand.Another Gospel - Dave WilkersonAnother Jesus - Carter ConlonRUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!! - Carter ConlonIn the love of Christ,Patrick

I agree Lynn5. 2 Chronicles 18:19-22 false prophets are often sent by God to test the people. 2 Timothy 4:3 it is the PEOPLE that heap on themselves the false teachers b/c they have itching ears.

Lynn5,You are right, both are equal in blame this is for sure. And it may very well be the case that these men are sent by God as judgment upon the church. In the Book of Ezekiel, God was very specific that it was He who gave the false prophets the lying words they spoke, but He was also very clear that this was none of Ezekiel's concern and that he must stand and speak out against them and the lie they spoke. I think many have failed to follow this example.Edit- I am absolutely certain that there are many who are sucked into this Word of Faith and Seeker Sensitive movements who have never heard the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have met many of them.

The Redeemer is Returning to Zion by David WilkersonDescription: Text version of this sermon (external link) Dating from late 1982 and given to a Canadian gathering, this sermon is a cry against the shallow, me-first "gospel." The true Gospel of repentance and intimacy is presented forcefully: "some of the greatest men the world has ever seen are going to stand there [the judgment] naked and have nothing." The starting point is the text of Isaiah 59 and 60. (The powerful file "Another Gospel" is taken from the middle portion of this sermon.)

I believe Benny Hinn, etc..etc. (WoF and Prosperity Preachers) are preaching the gospel. It's the same seed. There is just different ways to present it. And to promote Genuine Christians that's not the way, but PEOPLE DO GET saved in their meetings.80% of you might say 'how' ha! That's the same way you got saved. When benny gives the presentation of the gospel, he doesn't say 'Accept Jesus you get a big car' he stats numerous other things 'eternal life the greatest gift'. Benny and the rest of the WoF people are preaching the SAME Jesus, the Same Resurrection and the Same way to enter heaven.2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:7 - Which is not another,.... It is no Gospel, no joyful sound, no good news, and glad tidings; the doctrine which attributes justification to the works of the law, or mixes grace and works in the business of salvation, which was the doctrine of these false teachers, is no Gospel; not truly so, however it may be called; nor does it bring any solid peace and joy to distressed minds. There is but one pure Gospel of the grace of God, and Christ, and his apostles; there is not one and another; there is but one faith, one doctrine and scheme of faith; the Gospel is single and uniform, all of a piece, has no yea and nay, or contradiction in it; this trumpet gives no uncertain sound, nor any dreadful, but a joyful one: but there be some that trouble you; meaning the false apostles, whose names he does not think fit to mention, as being unworthy to be named, and to have their names transmitted to posterity. These troubled the churches with their doctrines and principles, by raising disputes and controversies among them, injecting doubts and scruples into their minds, which puzzled and confounded them, and made them uneasy, and which broke in upon that peace of soul which the Gospel brings and establishes; for no true solid peace is attained to, and enjoyed, but by the doctrine of justification by the righteousness of Christ, pardon by his blood, and atonement by his sacrifice, which the doctrine of justification by works, &c. tends to destroy. And would pervert the Gospel of Christ; which has Christ for its author, subject, and preacher; and particularly the doctrine of justification by his righteousness, which they sought to change, to throw into a different shape and form, to adulterate by mixing it with the works of the law, and so, if possible, destroy it: to this they showed a good will, but were not able to effect, for the Gospel is an everlasting one; it is immovable, and so is that particular doctrine of it; it remains, and will remain in spite of opposition to it. Thus the apostle prudently lays the blame of the Galatians removing from the Gospel to another upon the false teachers, hoping he should be able to reclaim them by solid arguments, and gentle methods.John Gill"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1Ti 6:1-101Ti 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds,.... Who being corrupt in their principles, and corrupters of the word of God, dispute in a very froward and perverse way, rubbing and galling one another, and so provoke, to wrath and anger, and, every evil work: and destitute of the truth of Christ, who is the truth, knowing nothing of him spiritually and savingly; and of the Gospel, the word of truth; and also of the truth of grace, being carnal, sensual, and having not the Spirit of God. Supposing that gain is godliness; such were Simon Magus and his followers, and other false teachers, who made merchandise of men, looked everyone for his gain from his quarter, and acted as if there was nothing in religion but worldly profit and gain; these served themselves, their own bellies, and selfish interests, and not the Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore the apostle gives the following advice to Timothy, and through him to all ministers and churches, from such withdraw thyself: do not come near them; have nothing to do with them; do not lay hands on them, or admit them into the ministry; do not suffer them to preach, or encourage them by hearing them: if in the church, cast them out; have communion with them, neither in a civil nor in a religious way; avoid all conversation with them. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions omit this clause; it is wanting in the Alexandrian copy, and in Beza's Claromontane Exemplar, but is in other copies.John GillHELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bro Onfirei feel you about what you've been led to say concerning the storing up of wealth on earth. this doesn't build the kingdom of God of at all but what it does build is the empires of men and what the Lord told me is that He is going to DESTROY all such empires in short order. The Lord doesn't require that we build Him a house of worship, we are not Jews who were asked to build a temple for Him. The early church had no need for buildings as they worshipped wherever they were.They met in eachother's homes, on street corners, at the temple (which was already built) and wherever the Holy Spirit of God led them to come together. i heard it said that $100 million was spent on the renovation of the compaq centre for lakewood church, perhaps it was less i'm unsure but the Lord doesn't need that, the Lord needs us to champion the cause of the lowly and oppressed in acordance to His word not spend all that money on a building to honor a man who when He was on earth was born in a stable and had no place to lay His own head. my spirit is grieving at this foolishness but rejoicing that the Lord is coming to sweep it all away with His hand of correction so we His church can be conformed to His image.Lord Correct us by any means necessary.AMEN

bro Yeshuaabout the women who contributed to the support of the 12, yes women did contribute and helped in some way but i don't think that's where most of the money came from. i'm not sure what difference it makes but it is clear that the 12 had help from women.however in John 19 vs 29 it is clear that judas was the one in charge of the money:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30

have read much of the correspondence on this topic. I have an email ministry that was given to me by inspiration of God and I've addressed many of these issues in the past. Jude 3 says this:Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. We see here, that "earnestly contending for the faith" is a commission by God for all believers. It is not simply a suggestion but a commandment. No one is beyond biblical analysis. As Christians, we should all be concerned with defending our faith.Some will say that by doing so, we are causing "disunity" among the church. But our unity is based solely upon the truth of God's Word. If something is untrue, then it certainly must not be embraced and accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ. Wasn't even Christ divisive?Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Jhn 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him. Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. Jhn 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. Clearly Christ came to divide and then unify. Christ divided those who believed from those who did not. Then, He unified those who did believe through the truth of God. He does the same thing today through His Living Word. God's Word divides the saved from the unsaved, the wheat from the tares, and then unifies those who truly believe in Christ of the Bible. What many false teachers have offered is a "Counterfeit Christ" which produces a "counterfeit Christianity". Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Should we neglect this declaration straightly from the mouth of Christ Himself? Should we believe that these teachers and false prophets do not exist?2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Is Peter to be considered a liar? If there are no false teachers, we say that God is a liar and we can't believe His Word to be true. If these false prophets aren't right in front of us, then where are they?Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.Whoever would like to respond directly, please feel free to email me at byhisgraceiam@yahoo.com.

bro ByHisGraceyes indeed we have to expose false teaching wherever it may be and false teachers alike. people oft talk of the peace of Christ (which is given to those whom the Father has given Him) but forget that He came to bring a sword and separate those who are the Father's and His from those tht are not. so this will cause disunity but those who are called of God will be drawn together. in the spirit of being all-inclusive/accepting we open the door to the enemy coming in and disrupting the perfect unity we have in Christ in all things.

What about Rod Parcely???INTERESTING: Rod Parcely favorite book? Answer: You guessed it..."Why Revival Tarries" L.Ravenhill :-(

What is their message? Send me money so I can keep the show going so I can keep asking you to send more money. Many send money for all the wrong reasons.They have moved from preaching and teaching to putting on a show, creating an illusion for NON-spiritual purposes, i.e. Holding the audience, generating revenue, making everything "look good", I have watched TBN and other "shows" for over 40 years off and on with very long periods of NON watching. They have evolved into razzle-dazzle, high tech programs that are packaged and canned. I would question are they saving more souls than sending to Hell? The Lord only knows, you toss in questionable theology, prophecies, self-serving messages, the book and movie deals it all sounds too Hollywood. However, Paul said, " As long as Christ is preached"