"A SINLESS LIFE - Is It POSSIBLE?"-by Andrew Strom.Let me be very clear in opening this topic: We are talking aboutthe "inner man" here. And this is the secret to the 'sinless' life.Paul wrote about it in Romans - John too in 1 Jn 3. Much ofWesley's powerful preaching revolved around this one issue. AndFinney wrote about it this way: "I could not feel a sense of guilt orcondemnation by any effort I could make. My sense of guilt was gone, my sins were gone, and I do not think I felt any more sense of guilt than if I never had sinned... I felt myself justified by faith, and, so far as I could see, I was in a state in which I did not sin."Wow! Shock! Are we saying that it is possible to live in a state in which there is no consciousness of "present sin" at all? Am I saying that this is actually "normal" Christianity? -Yes, that isexactly what I am saying."Normal" Christianity is this: Walking before God with a totallyclean conscience and a pure heart - as our 'normal' state beforeHim. -Utterly clean. No STRIVING or "TRYING to be good". Thisis clearly what the New Testament describes as normal. -Literally walking before God with "no consciousness of present sin". Notice that Finney (above) refers to this as a state of "justification by faith". And he is absolutely right. That is exactly what it is. It is as basic as that. -Elemental Christianity. The saddest thing of all is that we never hear it preached today.It is almost as though such a thing is too "lofty" - out of reachof the average church-goer. Or perhaps the preachers themselvesdo not believe it is possible to live in such a state. They do not experience it themselves, and therefore they do not preach it. How awful beyond words! How we are robbing people blind with the neglect of these basic truths! No wonder so few are getting truly saved. I tell you, this is the basic Gospel we are talking about here. It isnothing less. Today we somehow think that we preach the 'gospel'simply by relating the facts of Jesus dying for our sins, rising againand offering salvation freely. -Yes, these things are important. But what about becoming a "new creature" and walking in it? What about the fact that Jesus came to 'TAKE AWAY' our sins? Whatabout a 'new birth' that utterly transforms us from the inside out?-That actually MAKES us clean and KEEPS us clean? Where is this basic stuff in our preaching? Where do we actually describewhat happens inside a "truly saved" person?We have so reduced the gospel today to make it more "convenient"that it is no gospel at all. And thus we have entire church-loadsof people who are completely unsaved. They go down the front and pray the "little prayer", then they spend the rest of their livespaying their tithes and "trying to be good". -This is what a lot ofour Christianity amounts to. And it is all garbage. It is no "newbirth" at all. Wesley would be rolling in his grave to see what wepreach as the 'new birth' today.Such was Wesley's preaching of the 'sinless life' in his day (and Finney too) that both of them were accused of "perfectionism".But I think that what a lot of people misunderstand is that it is the 'INNER LIFE' that we are talking about here. -Yes, we are stillattached to a "fallen" body - which sometimes stumbles - much as we hate it. Paul says, "Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the BODY of this death?" (Rom 7:24). But in the very next breath he answers: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord..."So it is not the 'outer' life, but the INNER one that we are speaking of here. (-Though the 'outer' will be affected, of course. We must walk in "NO KNOWN SIN"). It is Jesus who gives us robes of righteousness to WALK IN - in the "Inner Man". That is what Romans chapters 5 - 8 are all about. That is what 'justification by faith' is all about: WALKING in a "sinless life" inside. Pure white robes - given to us by God - for us to walk in and keep "unspotted".That is true Christianity: To walk before God with a totally cleanconscience and a pure heart before Him. -No known sin. Anything less is no Christianity at all. It simply cannot be found in the New Testament. You are either a "new creation" and WALKING as a 'new creation' - or you are not. There is no room for a "half-way" house.Today, we are no longer bringing people into this state with our preaching. And therefore I say to you - "WE HAVE LOST THE GOSPEL". And when we lose the gospel, we lose Christianity itself.Wesley spent much of his life preaching on this stuff. (Go andread his sermon "Marks of the New Birth" for instance. -One of the most convicting messages of all time). Little wonder thatsometimes when he preached, thousands of people would be lefton the ground under agonizing conviction. Little wonder too thatafter Finney preached, sometimes church-goers were in suchshock that they could not speak or stand for days - they were sostricken. These were people who thought they were 'saved' but Finney had shown them that they were not - in the most direct and piercing way.We say we want "apostolic preaching" and true "Revival" preachers.I don't think we realize what we are asking for. -Such searching,direct, bold and convicting preaching as we have never heard in our lives.In August 2003 God woke me up at 4:00am one morning with asudden insight into Finney's preaching - how he would expose "false assurance". God showed me that I had to start preaching that waytoo. From then on, every time I preached this message I began to notice a big increase in anointing and conviction. I have seen wholecongregations of up to 1000 people stand as one when the altar call was given, and people coming forward weeping and confessingsin. And I have noticed a similar impact when I preach on "A Sinless Life" (-ie. Walking before God with a pure heart and conscience as our NORMAL STATE). But I'm convinced that there is a greater anointing yet unseen, waiting for us all in future days.So are YOU walking in a 'sinless life' today, my friends?God bless you all.Kindest regards in Christ,Andrew Strom.
A SINLESS LIFE - Is It POSSIBLE?
Thank you, Brother. This is the stuff that makes my heart sing! Hallelujah, for God is (as the Seraphim say,) "Holy, Holy, Holy"!!! May God continue to awaken our hearts to living purely for Him (my youth pastor has informed me that the college [Lee University: Cleveland, TN] he attends has started a new Holiness course; wish there was one at my school).Man, I don't know, but when we allow God's Spirit to pour down in His true form--a consuming fire--He'll continue to refine us as gold and purify us as silver...oh, that's something to pray for!God bless you, Brother, as you keep seeking to preach the full gospel of our Risen King Jesus. Amen.In the Lamb,Benjamin
Holiness is not preached because as the saying goes: It takes a crucified preacher to preach a crucified Savior. As Christians, we are willing to travel hundreds, if not thousands of miles to hear a preacher who challenges us to live a holy life. Alas, preachers willing to expound the truths about holiness are few and far between. Fortunately, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. The sermons on SI are also a great source of encouragement. Tozer quotes someone who prayed: Lord make me as holy as a saved sinner ever can be. Tozer himself had this deep desire to walk in holiness of life. His ministry reflected that inner holiness.
My pastor recounted the end of Wesley's life when Wesley was on his death bed and he was asked if it was possible to lead a sinless life. With a glimmer in his eyes, he said something like (can't recall the exact quote) "yes, it is but I'm not there yet" and tears begin to stream down his face.I love Tozer's quote. Will have to pray over that one. May the Lord God of heaven raise up some true Holy Ghost holiness preachers who are sold out for Jesus in these the last days...
NOTE: Below is a very good reply that I got from a reader about the "SINLESS LIFE" article. But first some reflections of my own...1) "MY EXPERIENCE of a CLEAN HEART" -by Andrew Strom.I have been walking with God now for 22 years. I was filled withthe Holy Spirit when I was 17 - and that was really the turning point. It was an overnight transformation in my life. And after I read a few 'Revival' books, that was all I cared about. -The gloryof God coming down and transforming people. I was hungry for God to move.Something happened to me when I was converted that I alwaysassumed was "normal" - and still believe it should be. God gave me a true 'fear of the Lord' from the start, and a deep repentance where I literally went right through my life and repented of everything I could find that was not godly. So I was "clean" and newly filled with the Spirit - filled with His love and power. And I found that I could literally WALK in this 'clean' state before God - without any"effort" or striving whatsoever. I just figured this was normal. Itbecame my 'natural' state - walking with a clean conscience andclean heart before God. Did I have to "strive" to maintain this constant "clean heart" state? No, not at all. I simply avoided sin and kept walking in this innerpurity that God had given me. No effort at all, really. It just seemed "natural". The Scripture, "There is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus" was very real to me. I could sense that indeed I walked under a new "law" - the 'Law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus'which had made me free from the law of sin and death.Whenever I discovered any 'darkness' in me that I had not seenbefore, I instantly would repent of it because God had given me a deep hatred of sin. This is one of the keys to this kind of walk. I could not stand for anything to come in between me and God. I simply walked before Him in this permanent state of communion and fellowship. If I inadvertently "tripped up" in such a way that I noticed a kind of "spot" on my white robe, so to speak, I was very quick to deal with it because I hated sin and loved walking in totaltransparency before God. -But it was not common for me to have to do that. Sometimes weeks would go by without me having to seriously "repent" of anything. 'Clean' had become my natural state -a wonderful gift from God. This is not to say that temptation never came along. Of course itdid. I just had to choose not to entertain it. I hated sin and loved God too much to indulge it. But did this mean that I was outwardly"perfect"? No! -Just that I was inwardly walking with Him in righteousness and "purifying myself as He is pure". And so the years went by...I read the book, "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee,and along with some other Revival books, etc, - this helped me to understand better the state I was in - and to assume it was "normal". But I would often come across other Christians whoseemed surprised when I would share a little about what I wasexperiencing. Many did not seem to live in any genuine "victory"over sin - and seemed to be always 'repenting' with little realresult. They told me I needed to keep "short accounts with God"which seemed to mean that I had to repent every half-hour or so.What kind of "victory" this was, I could not discern.Didn't Jesus die so that we could walk with God as ADAMdid before the fall - communing with Him in the "cool of theevening"? Isn't that the whole point? -To give us a clean heartand restore us to full communion with God - as an actual STATEOF BEING? Isn't it just that simple?Another thing God taught me later on was to "RENOUNCE" thingsthat were serious temptations in my life. This did not affect my"righteousness of heart" before God one way or the other, butit did affect my mind - and the clarity of it. I was no longerbombarded with temptations anywhere near as much after'RENOUNCING' those strongholds out of my life.I have now been walking with God in this "clean-heart" way for 22 years. It does not seem to be an "effort" or anything 'hard'. I have been made a 'new creature' and I simply walk in it as a "natural" state. My heart and my conscience are continually clean before God - washed in the blood of the lamb. So what are the pre-requisites for this kind of walk? -Simply to havea true "fear of the Lord", to have experienced "thorough repentance"and also to have been baptized and Spirit-filled, I believe. -Simplestuff, really. For most of us the door is wide open to walking in this. Can you trust God for it, my friends? Will you enter in?-God bless you all. -Andrew Strom. -------------------------------------------------2) A Reader, Lyall Scheib, writes:The Bible is very clear about it's expectations of sinlessness in 1John 3:6- "Whoever abides in Him does not sin" and verse 8, "He who sins is of the devil," and then verse 9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin because he has been born of God."That verse says the one born of God cannot sin! Most Christians I know say the opposite, they cannot NOT sin. I am amazed at Bible believing, Spirit filled, tongues speaking, signs and wonders embracing Christians who believe God can raise the dead and heal cancers, calm storms, etc, but they don't believe that one little phrase - "he cannot sin...." Seems to me if we don't believe it we won't get it, just like healings and miracles. It is time we started believing every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.John actually wrote his epistle with that purpose in mind. 1 Jn 2:1- "...these things I write to you so that you may not sin." Of course there is the possibility that we might sin because we are still human so the next phrase begins with an "if" like it's a rarity. "And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I actually believe the blood of Jesus is not for continually practised sin but only for repented-of and departed-from sin. Look at Hebrews 10:26. "For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain frearful expectation of judgement..."While I am on the subject I have to mention Romans 6: such phrases as, "sin shall not have dominion over you," and "that we should no longer be slaves to sin," or, "how shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" and, "having been set free from sin." These verses all say the same thing: it's an odd thing for a Christian to continue to sin. The key to how we might be able to live that way is in verses 11 to 13. Briefly: 1. Reckon yourself to be dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 2. Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, and 3. do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin but 4. present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.Blessings on the Righteous in Christ Jesus,~Lyall Scheib.
This is an interesting topic indeed. I think it would be a good one to explore because so many have their own versions of what it means to be 'sinless'. It would be a wonderful study to look into the biblical concept of 'sinless' so as not to find ourselves in some sort of Humpty Dumpty-'ism'. What are the variables? What if my conscience is seared and I am sinning in an area and have mastered the art of resisting conviction from the Holy Spirit in that area? Another topic we should look at is what does the passage "whatsoever is not of faith, is sin" mean? Is it sin to transgress my conscience? Am I supposed to be in a state that I could transgress my conscience with impunity? Can I sin and just not be conscious of it? Etc.? What are the standards of holiness in this model? Whats the difference between holiness and discipline? Those topics are often mingled as if they were one and the same. What about relationships? Can I be in a sinless state and not be in harmony with my parents or other Christian brothers and sisters? Can I be sinless and in some ways reflect an unchristlike spirit? Lots and lots of things to sort through. :-D
Sometimes weeks would go by without me having to seriously "repent" of anything. 'Clean' had become my natural state -a wonderful gift from God. Here is an example of what I mean about our definitions of being clean and sinless. When I hear 'clean' and 'sinless' I am hearing an Oberlin, Victorian age, early 1930's Missouri bread hair trigger perfectionism that keeps ones salvation on the line at every moment. I am hearing a perfecting that would make Finney rejoice. This means a person does not watch TV, listen to secular music, drink Coffee ever (much less alcohol), smoke, chew or date girls who do (as the cliche' goes here in Missouri). They do not lust with their eyes ever and do not covet anything whatsoever that is not edifying. Their mind is on God 24/7 and thats all they care about. They don't use slang if they can avoid it and never cuss. They are totally non-combative and peacemaking. They don't have crossed words with folk and they never allow the sun to go down on their wrath. They have one coat in the closet and not two. All their clothes are modest and no women wear make-up. Men don't wear long hair and women don't braid theirs; and if they do- how could they possibly be saved? THIS is the type of step on the crack and your damned salvation I was raised under. My understanding of 'perfection' caused me much grief in my early days on this forum- drawing swords with folk unnecessarily. This is why I believe we need to establish what we mean when we talk about this because to me- a few weeks of victory is a backslidden state. I'm not trying to be hard here at all, but I am interested to hear others opinions of this. Victory to me is being able to go perpetually without falling back into any type of previous sin or new sin. So when I have said I don't think 'perfection' is attainable - this is the perfection I am referring to. God Bless,-Robert
Good topic! Not only is it possible it is expected of us in order to obtain salvation. Sin literally means to be separated from God. Without exercising our faith in Him we are separated from Him. Cleanness was mentioned and that is so true. We confuse the process of sanctification as being still sinful. The fact of the Holy Spirit doing a number on us doesn't mean that we are sinful.
RobertW'sIt would be a wonderful study to look into the biblical concept of 'sinless' so as not to find ourselves in some sort of Humpty Dumpty-'ism'. It is interesting that the Bible never speaks of sinless-ness. It is also interesting that the only person specifically declared to be 'without sin' is Christ Himself.John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Heb. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Room for thought?
Onfire wrote:Good topic! Not only is it possible it is expected of us in order to obtain salvation. Onfire,The above statement is the line of reasoning that seperates Reformed believers from Arminian believers.As a reformed type, I believe nothing is expected of us but faith in Christ, and that that faith is itself a gift from God.I can concure with the article by Andrew Strom, although I think he downplays his sin by saying he "inadvertently trips up".So I believe sanctification is a result of salvation, not something we do to obtain it.
Jim Bob ~> By all means and thanks for addressing this. I too believe that faith is a gift from God and we have been given the choice to exercise that faith in Him. You're correct and I apologize for making it look like we have to work to our salvation. That stuff turns my stomach as I know of many in bondage to that kind of thinking. Christ sanctifying us is most certainly a result of being under His saving grace.
I can concure with the article by Andrew Strom, although I think he downplays his sin by saying he "inadvertently trips up".I think what he is trying to say here is that he knows he is not perfect, while making a distinction between full on sin and stumbling. (I'll get my helmet)
Hi Ron,Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Can you break down this passage for us? More specifically, is the one 'without sin' in this passage Christ or 'them that look for Him'? Thanks!
I thought the difference between a sinner and a saint is that a saint may "fall" into sin, while the sinner jumps headlong. The saint fights against it. He/she loves righteousness and hates sin. If you walked out the door of your home and fell into a hole you would 'fall.' If you walked out your door again and fell into the same hole, I think you need to question yourself and see what the problem is. If you walked out your door the 3rd time and fell into the same hole.. I think you would be a fool or you enjoy falling into holes. Watch where you are going!
Peach ~> Can someone fall in and out of being separated from God?
I know we have discussed this topic before and I still have the same questions as before- similar to what Robert what saying. There are outward sins, which are usually the first to go, and then there are sins of the heart (hidden attitudes, etc...) that are sometimes not revealed to us accept as time goes on. Early in my close walk with the Lord, because i had gotten rid of alot of outward sins, I thought I could walk in sinless perfection- this lasted only a short while until the Lord knocked me off my high horse and showed me the condition of my heart- not once but many times and continues to do so. What of the sin of pride, anger, hidden bitter feelings which we may still have no known knowledge of. If we have any of these, this is not walking in sinless perfection. And not one of us is completely free from pride. It always rears it's ugly head and if we are teachable and wanting to come clean before the Lord we will ask for it to be exposed at every turn. Just when i think I've conquered some area that the Lord reveals to me that is not in accordance to His word, that He wants me to work on (and i consider these things sin, whether it be a critical attitude, doubt, whatever), just when I think I am 'somewhere' - I have achieved some sense of 'holiness'-- the Lord comes along side after a very short while and again holds His mirror up to my heart and exposes more sin. More pride. Another hidden idol. Another sinful attitude toward someone. Being too harsh with my children. It is a lifetime of stripping away.I don't say this to make any excuses for anyone or my own sin. I know many people may think that I would oppose this sinless perfection because I want to make excuses for my sin. The Lord knows my heart and how I long to be pure and clean before Him. How I continually ask Him to show me my heart so that i can be more like Him. As He contually shows me more things as my life goes on, I have to admit that I am in no way walking in sinless perfection. Though I strive to, though I am willing for the Lord to show me my heart at any time-- i must trust that He will show me what He wants me to learn, when He wants to. I trust that He will deal with me as He will. I cannot work it, I cannot do it. I can only be willing.As far as John Wesley is concerned, I still have many questions about his beliefs. I have read his biography and many things about his life and it was quite evident that despite his many 'rules' and 'disciplines' at a young age, attempting to be 'holy'-- it was not unitl a later age (30 something) that He finally found the peace and salvation of the Lord. No amount of getting up at 4:00 am, or holding a holy club and doing good, and seeking out all sinful behavior on his own could save him. No amount of keeping special rules could save him. As someone quoted above about asking Wesley on his deathbed if it was possible, and with tears in his eyes, he responded that he had yet to attain it. That is very sad to me. It gives me a picture of a man who strived all of his life to achieve something that was impossible this side of heaven. Instead of resting and trusting the Lord for His salvation and cleansing work and sanctification, he seemed to be endlessly striving in the flesh, striving and working. The pressure he must have felt all of his life to try and meet this standard that was embedded in his mind. What an awful way to live. And to know that all his life, all that he strived for, was still not accomplished, what a failure he must have felt like. But in reality, it was not his to accomplish, but the Lord's. If we are willing, if we are humble and childlike and open to correction at all times, the Lord WILL see to it that we are changed moment by moment. Life is a process of growing and changing. Who can tell me that once they were saved that they instantly became like Jesus and have walked in that ever since? Jesus was sinless perfection. He was our example to look to. But who is just like him in all ways and all areas of life? Even Paul states : "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." Phil. 3:12 Do any of think us better or more holy than Paul? Yes, we must press on to perfection. We must always be changing and growing toward that goal. But as soon as we think we are perfect, is that not pride? Is that not an opportunity to be puffed up and think ourselves better than others? Speaking of perfection, what of this verse: "But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection." Col 3:14 I can tell you right now, that i am lacking in this area. I know I have more to work on in this area of of love and not having a critical attitude. To me and to the Lord, these are sins. What must we say about these. In my life, I have such a long way to go to become more like Him. This is my desire to change more and more into His image, day by day, minute by minute, year by year. And He IS working this in me. I know this. I trust Him to do this in me. I can rest in the knowledge that He is in control of my life and my sanctification. But as I sit here, I can say with all honesty and humility, that I am no where near sinless or perfect. May God have His way with me and may His will be done.In His love, Chanin
Chanin ~> Is sin bad behaviour or being separated from God? What I'm asking is that are we separated from God first and then the behaviour or actions are the result of being separated from Him. It seems that many people think that the behaviour or action is the actual sin.
Let me be very clear in opening this topic: We are talking aboutthe "inner man" here. And this is the secret to the 'sinless' life.already this article has become into the wrong direction, this is a sort of gnoticism seperating the working of the flesh and spirit and the only part of us that can be redeemed or of any value is the inner man "spirit". "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).Notice Paul says: spirit, soul AND spirit.No STRIVING or "TRYING to be good". Thisis clearly what the New Testament describes as normalThere is absolutely not grounding in scripture for this concept of passivity that aquires sinless-ness. There needs to be a constant "reckoning" and striving to enter into the "rest" (Hebrews 4:8-11, Romans 6:11).We have so reduced the gospel today to make it more "convenient"that it is no gospel at all. And thus we have entire church-loadsof people who are completely unsaved. They go down the front and pray the "little prayer", then they spend the rest of their livespaying their tithes and "trying to be good". -This is what a lot ofour Christianity amounts to. And it is all garbage. It is no "newbirth" at all. Wesley would be rolling in his grave to see what wepreach as the 'new birth' today.Great statement! It is so true that people are making decisions and not being "born" at the altar. "And it is all garbage." I think andrew is the only fellow that can pull that statement off. It definetly isn't something pretty and we need to change ourselves and pray for God to change this situation. A normal Christian is a "holy" Christian.Today, we are no longer bringing people into this state with our preaching. And therefore I say to you - "WE HAVE LOST THE GOSPEL". And when we lose the gospel, we lose Christianity itself.Christianity and the Gospel is Christ, and surely we have not lost Christ, can He even be lost? we are propogating an false gospel surely if elements are missing or in extreme. We say we want "apostolic preaching" and true "Revival" preachers.I don't think we realize what we are asking for. -Such searching,direct, bold and convicting preaching as we have never heard in our lives.Amen may God bring many more in our day, We need revival preachers like these desperately, may God shock us with them!
Onfire,Sorry,I am not sure what you are asking. I believe worry to be a sin. I belive bitterness to be a sin. I believe (spiritual) idolatry and adultery to be a sin.In Him, Chanin
I believe worry to be a sin. I belive bitterness to be a sin. I believe (spiritual) idolatry and adultery to be a sin.How about pride or selfishness.I remember sitting across from a brother and talking with him. And the conversation in scripture came to 1 John 1:8. He stated that he felt he had no sin right now as we were talking. And I asked him well do you think you sinned in the last hour? last 30 minutes? he said yes but he asked for forgivness and with a straight face told me he had right now no sense of sin in his life.We can think we are sinless sitting by ourselves in a room but wait till God puts certain people or situations in our lifes. Or even if the presence of the Holy God comes near to us we will actually start to realize how sinful we are in light of God's absolute purity and perfection!Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry.
How about pride or selfishness.yes, yes, yes! as I stated in my looong :-) reply above. No one is free from pride. As with you Greg, I say, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!"Hasn't anyone read the Valley of Vision? The Puritans readily admitted they were sinners, even though they knew and believed on God for salvation. I would rather live humbly and know my own sinful heart than think i may live in some fantasy world of perfection and think I have achieved some great thing. If anything is achieved in me, it is by God's grace alone.In His love, Chanin
Great topic guys,Chanin I left out a very important piece about John Wesley. On his deathbed, he was described as having an angelic face. He was not striving to be holy in the flesh. At least not from what I've read. The tears were because his sin had dishonored God's name. I'm very curious now and I'll see if Pastor will let me borrow the book he referenced this and if so I'll post a more precise quotation from the book.And it's true that Wesley wasn't converted until some time after he had initially thought he was a Christian. The same was true for Rees Howells and he thought he was converted until the Holy Spirit began dealing with his heart.God wants to eradicate all sin in our lives. What a blessing it is be convicted of my sin and then afforded the opportunity to repent. I'm so thankful that many of the brethren here on SI can see their sin. How many people who call themselves Christians cannot even see their own sin?
yes, yes, yes! as I stated in my looong reply above. No one is free from pride.:-) I was smiling when I posted that because I knew you would agree what major and deplorable sins those are, how can we ever be totally free from them? But with that said truly am an advocate of santification, holiness and an surrendered life.I was reading joshua last night and a phrase from the below passage stuck out to me:"Nevertheless my brethren that went up with me made the heart of the people melt: but I wholly followed the Lord my God. And Moses, sware on that day saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children's forever, because thou hast wholly followed the Lord my God." (Joshua 15:8-9)."wholly followed the Lord" What a wonderful phrase and for us to be able to say this!Hasn't anyone read the Valley of Vision? The Puritans readily admitted they were sinners, even though they knew and believed on God for salvation. YES YES YES! I have this in audio form and listen to it all the time. I was playing it for a brother that was in this "sinless" state in my car and there must have been a conviction of sin, oh how those puritans really saw Christ in a beatiful way and in turn saw their sinfulness. I posted some of those prayers from the "valley of vision" on the site before.
But with that said truly am an advocate of santification, holiness and an surrendered lifeYes, me to. I do think that we can live our life in a totally surrendered state- though at times we try to take that back too. As time has gone on I tend to agree with Jim Elliot:"One does not surrender a life in an instant-- that which is lifelong can only be surrendered in a lifetime. Nor is the surrender to the will of God (per se) adequate to fullness of power in Christ. Maturity is the accomplishment of years, and I can only surrender to the will of God as I know what that will is." Jim ElliotI tend to be more of the "Refomed" thinking, I guess.Here is a prayer for Purification from "The Valley of Vision"Lord Jesus, I sin. Grant that I may never cease grieving because of it, never be content with myself, never think I can reach a point of perfection. Kill my envy, command my tongue, trample down self. Give me grace to be holy, kind, gentle, pure, peaceable, to live for Thee and not for self, to copy Thy words, acts, spirit, to be transformed into Thy likeness, to be consecrated wholly to Thee, to live entirely to Thy glory. Deliver me from attachment to things unclean, from wrong associations, from the predominance of evil passions, from the sugar of sin as well as its gap; that with self-loathing, deep contrition, earnest heart searching I may come to Thee, cast myself on Thee, trust in Thee, cry to Thee, be delivered by Thee. O God, the Eternal All, help me to know that all things are shadows, but Thou art substance, all things are quicksands, but Thou art mountain, all things are shifting, but Thou art anchor, all things are ignorance, but Thou art wisdom. If my life is to be a crucible amid burning heat, so be it, but do Thou sit at the furnace mouth to watch the ore that nothing be lost. If I sin wilfully, grievously, tormentedly, in grace take away my mourning and give me music; remove my sackcloth and clothe me with beauty; still my sighs and fill my mouth with song, then give me summer weather as a Christian. ...and from "Resting on God":I come to Thee as a sinner with cares and sorrows, to leave every concern entirely to Thee, every sin calling for Christ's precious blood; revive deep spirituality in my heart; let me live near to the great Shepherd, hear His voice, know its tones, follow its calls. Keep me from deception by causing me to abide in the truth, from harm by helping me to walk in the power of the Spirit. Give me intenser faith in the eternal verities, burning into me by experience the things I know; Let me never be ashamed of the truth of the gospel, that I may bear its reproach, vindicate it, see Jesus as its essence, know in it the power of the Spirit. Lord, help me, for I am often lukewarm and chill; unbelief mars my confidence, sin makes me forget Thee. Let the weeds that grow in my soul be cut at their roots; grant me to know that I truly live only when I live to Thee, that all else is trifling. Thy presence alone can make me holy, devout, strong and happy. Abide in me, gracious God. another pilgrim on this path of surrender, Chanin
The question was can we live a sinless life.I can tell you my experience.First let me say I have read alot of Watchman Nee and I am convinced you can live a sinless life.To live a sinless life you must basically die to self.DEAD PEOPLE CAN'T SIN. Have you ever tried to convince a corpse to sin?THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT.If there is no self present than the devil cannot tempt you and He knows this. A mature christian does not get a little temptation set before them THEY GET THE FLOOD GATES OF HELL!This is what it means in the book of Revelation when it speaks of "the wearing out of the saints."For a mature christian in order to get you to sin the devil must first wear you out.Now about my experience.I decided that I was going to die to myself and live a sinless life-and I am still determined to this day.I died to alot during this time.Its very hard to describe because when your dead to yourself you really don't remember the temptation ever being set before you.All I knew was when I thought about some things that happened during the day that would normally make me angry I remember that they did not make me angry and there were many temptations during this time.I was spoken against by the people I loved most and accused night and day,but I kept my mouth shut and didn't utter a word.Its alot like walking on water.You really cant sit there and think to hard about who did what to you and how it didn't effect you because before long you get puffed up about it and start to sink.Thats why you cant look down at the water, you just keep walking.The further you walk the stronger in spirit you become and the little temptations the devil used to tempt you with before you were dead he cant tempt you with anymore so the temptations get stronger.And I would not call these temptations I call them FLOODS!!!Here is where the walking on water comes in.When satan puts something so great in front of you that your flesh man could NEVER handle and it doesnt phase you in the least baby your walking on water!!! You just have to keep walking,dont look down,stay on your face and in much prayer.Dont even try to skip your prayer time with God.The devil will bargain with you and tell you that all these floods will go away if you just give up.But God is greater than any flood the devil can put against you.I went 3 weeks with no known sin.The reason I use the words NO KNOWN SIN is because when your dead you cant even recall that there was a temptation.I neglected praying and grew faint.Have you ever heard David Wilkersons sermon on "A Night of Confusion"?You will face a night of confusion and wonder is this God punishing me or the Devil.And the devil will bombard you all night long but this is how your ear gets trained to the voice of God.Don't give up.If you fall get back up again!!!
Lynn5,Here is a wonderful article that relates to much of what you are speaking of. (walking on water)It's not very long, please take the time to read it and let me know what you think.THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST by Andrew Murray
I believe if we're following Jesus that we are constantly dying. It's a continual thing. As the fallow ground in my heart is being dug, new things pop up that I have to bring before the Lord.Paul said I am crucified with Christ not I was crucified with Christ. It's a constant crucification. In the oft-quoted verse from Galatians "not I" the word I is ego, the self. There's a real crucification of self with Christ.Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.So it's possible to lead a sinless life? Yes, absolutely but it's much more than not walking in known sin. That's only the beginning, at least that's been my own experience as the Holy Spirit begins to expose the hidden things of heart.For Chanin: Here's a quote I did find on Wesley. On his deathbed Wesley whispered, "What have I to trust to for my salvation? I can see nothing which I have done or suffered that will bear looking at. I have no other plea than this: 'I the chief of sinners am, but Jesus died for me."
As someone quoted above about asking Wesley on his deathbed if it was possible, and with tears in his eyes, he responded that he had yet to attain it. That is very sad to me. It gives me a picture of a man who strived all of his life to achieve something that was impossible this side of heaven.Hi Chanin,It would be sad to me too, if I believed it. I suspect this is a 'Christian urban legend'. If not, I would like some documentation, please.
by RobertW on 2005/12/9 16:20:47Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Can you break down this passage for us? More specifically, is the one 'without sin' in this passage Christ or 'them that look for Him'? I'll try but before I do I want to return to the reason I wrote in the way I did. I think the title of this topic is a mistake. It puts all the emphasis in the wrong place. I would suggest some different questions... here are the 5 (the number of grace?) questions that I think we should ask..Is He...“...able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,” (Jude 1:24, KJVS)Is He...“...he is able to succour them that are tempted.” (Heb. 2:18, KJVS)Is He...“...able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”(Heb. 7:25, KJVS)Is He...“...is able to make him stand.” (Rom. 14:4, KJVS)Is He...“...able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:” (2Cor. 9:8, KJVS)If you want a single question to encompass them all, how about... Question: 'What does the name "Jesus" signify?' Answer: Matt. 1:21
As someone quoted above about asking Wesley on his deathbed if it was possible, and with tears in his eyes, he responded that he had yet to attain it. That is very sad to me. It gives me a picture of a man who strived all of his life to achieve something that was impossible this side of heaven.Will talk with Pastor about this Ron and provide a direct quote from whatever source he had.EDIT: One of my brothers at our fellowship said my quote was wrong but he didn't have the source or precise quote and my pastor is out of town for the next couple of weeks.I haven't read much about Wesley but he was not a legalist, that I do know from what I've read so Chanin I apologize if my post created the mistaken assumption that he was legalist. He believe, however, in victory over sin through the blood of Jesus.
A mental image comes to me: When a child is born, he cannot at first truly see. Even as he gorws older he is always asking, 'Father, what is that?' and the father replies, 'It's a tree'...and thus, the process goes on ultil the child becomes a young man, needing not to be constantly told that an oak's an oak or a birch is a birch; however, he is now learning how to care for the father's land...We, likewise, come to Christ knowing little of the spiritual world around us and need Christ constantly explaining things. Yet, as we grow older, we remember the earlier lessons and just need occassional reminders of them, as well as to be taught the deeper issues (which the writer of Hebrews makes reference to in Heb. 6).Truly, we are mostly but children; however, let's perfect (mature) in eating the Lord's entire meal: the milk, bread, and meat of the Word; the water of His Spirit; the fruit of the Spirit--if we learn to combine all these, we can make a wonderfully delicious pie that both fills and strengthens us to continue in the fight (How do we cook it?: "God is a consuming fire").May we all desire the food that the Lord provides, knowing it but a "taste of the heavenlies" to come at the marriage supper of the Lamb.Blessings to you,BenjaminPS: As with all images, if they do not help, you don't have to use them. :-)
From The Life That Wins by Watchman NeeEvery born-again believer should live a Life That Is Free from the Power of Sin. "Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities" (Acts 3.26). This is the message Peter delivered at the porch of the temple in Jerusalem. What the Lord Jesus has accomplished is in turning people from their iniquities. The minimum experience of a Christian is to be freed from sin. Whatever he knows to be sin must be overcome. I do not insist we must conquer the sins which we have no knowledge of, but I do declare we ought to overcome through our Lord all sins which we know. We should overcome all those which have entangled us for many years. The Bible says, "even if a man be overtaken in any trespass" (Gal. 6.la); yet too often our experience as believers is that we only overcome occasionally. How abnormal is our experience!"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?" (Rom. 6.1-2) We who believe in the Lord Jesus have died to sin. Thus, no Christian should continue in it. How do we know we are dead to sin? Paul provides the answer in the very next verse: "Are ye ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" (v.3) In other words, those who have been baptized are dead to sin. For baptism is into the death of Christ Jesus: "We were buried . . . with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life" (v.4). This is the kind of life a Christian should live daily. All who have been baptized ought to walk in newness of life. These are not special Christians Paul has in view here; rather, they are the newly baptized ones. We have all been baptized, therefore we should walk in newness of life. Such experience is ordained by God for all believers."Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace" (Rom. 6.14). Oh, how I love this verse! Let me ask you: Who is the one in view here who is not under law but under grace? Is it Andrew Murray? or Paul? or Peter or John? Or is it, that all who believe are not under law but under grace? How many of you are under grace today? Praise and thanks be to our God, all of us are under grace, with none of us still under law!The words which precede this statement we have just discussed are, "sin shall not have dominion over you." Here it declares that sin shall not be our lord! Victory is not the experience of special Christians, it is instead an experience all believers may share; because all who are saved are under grace. When I was first saved, I considered this verse to be most precious. In those days I confessed I had many victories over many sins, and God was truly gracious to me. Yet there was one particular sin which had dominion over me, and a few other sins which frequently returned to trouble me again and again. This can be illustrated by what happened to me one day as I was walking on the street. There I met a certain brother to whom I nodded my head in acknowledgment. Shortly thereafter I came out of a store and met him a second time. And for the second time I acknowledged him by nodding my head. I entered into still another store and when I came out of it, I met him once more. So again I nodded my head. I crossed over to another street, and there to my amazement I encountered him a fourth time! Another street after that and I saw him again. Within one day and I had met him five times, and five times I had nodded my head. This can illustrate, can it not, the way in which we meet up with sin.We do not know why we always encounter this or that particular sin as though it were following us. Yet it does. Some find ill-temper following them; some, pride following them; some, jealousy; others, laziness; still others, lying; some, misery and self-pity; some, meanness; some, selfishness; others, unclean thoughts; and still others, impure passions. In fact, everybody seems to have a special sin that always follows him or her. I myself found a few sins that followed me most powerfully and tenaciously. I had to concede that sin did have dominion over me. I finally confessed to the Lord, "You say that sin shall not have the rule over me; therefore, I consent that the fault must be in me and not in Your word."Although you may live a defeated life, you nonetheless know that this is not the life ordained by God. If sin still has the rule over you, you should clearly understand that this is not what God has ordained. For His word plainly says, "sin shall not have dominion over you.""There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8.1). In my preaching I have explained the word "condemnation" many times. Some twenty years ago, from an old manuscript excavated from the ground, it was explained that this word in the original Greek language had two usages: one, civil; the other, legal (and thus in this latter sense, the English word "condemnation" is used). According to civil usage, it could be translated as "without strength." Hence we may legitimately retranslate this verse as follows: "There is therefore now no being without strength to them that are in Christ Jesus." How marvelous this is! Let me ask you again, whose verse is this? Only Wesley's? or Martin Luther's? or only Hudson Taylor's? What does the Scripture say here? It says that those who are in Christ Jesus are no longer without strength. Who are these people? They are all Christians — since every Christian is in Christ, and no one in Christ is without strength."The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death" (v.2). I will repeat a hundred times that it is not those special saints who are freed from the law of sin and of death. It is instead true that every Christian is set free from the law of sin and of death. What is meant by being "without strength"? It is what is spoken of in Romans 7: "to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practice" (v.l8b-19). In other words, the total thrust of Romans 7 indicates that I am without strength, I cannot do it. The history of many a Christian is marked by a cycle of resolutions and broken promises. Yet we thank and praise God that His word unmistakably declares that no Christian is now without strength.What is law? It is something which always repeats itself. A law acts the same way and produces the same result at any place and under any circumstance. It is a constant phenomenon, reveals a continuous habit, and always ends with the same effect. There is, for instance, the force of gravity at the center of the earth. Whenever you throw an object, that object is always attracted by this gravitational force and falls downward. This force of gravity is thus a universal law.For some, then, the losing of one's temper becomes a law. He may endure temptation once or twice, but on the third occasion of being provoked he begins to be agitated, and by the fourth time he completely loses his temper. It does not matter which person or thing he encounters. At first he can endure a provocation, but his temper will always eventually explode later. So that with each occasion he is tempted to lose his temper, and without exception it ends up with the same result.Pride oftentimes acts the same way. You may remain untouched at the first word with which you are praised, but you will feel your face begin to glow with pride upon hearing the second word of praise. Whatever passes through the same procedure and produces the same result constitutes a law. In short, we sin till sinning becomes a law.It needs to be said again that it is not those special Christians who are made free from the law of sin. Rather, every Christian hereafter is not to be without strength; every Christian is now set free from the law of sin. The Scripture passages quoted above are facts, not commands. They therefore ought to be the experience of all believers. Yet how sad that our experience does not measure up to God's word.(6) A Life That Overcomes Environment. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? . . . Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Rom. 8.35, 37). Through the Lord who loves us we are made more than conquerors in all things. This is, in fact, the kind of experience a Christian should have. Yet a slight change in another's countenance — not to mention tribulation or sword! — will cause us to lose the consciousness of Christ's love. Nevertheless, Paul declared that in all these things we more than conquer.Victory is to be the Christian's normal experience; defeat is abnormal. For according to God's will, every Christian should more than conquer in all kinds of environment. Whether it be tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword, we shall not only conquer, but more than conquer! Any increase in difficulty will make no difference. The world may look upon Christians as mad. So what if we are deemed mad! Through the love of Christ, we will not mind these things, because we more than conquer them. And such is to be the Christian's experience as ordained by God. But what is our experience? Sad to say, we have not lived rightly. For with but a little tribulation which comes our way we scream and complain how we have endured and suffered. Yet if we live rightly, we shall more than conquer in all these things."Thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place" (2 Cor. 2. 14). The Christian life is not one that sometimes conquers and is sometimes defeated; is not one that is defeated in the morning and is conquering in the afternoon. It is always in triumph. According to the Biblical standard, it is to be deemed strange if you do not overcome and to be reckoned as common if you do overcome!
I read the article on the presence of Christ it was very good.Thanks. I think every christian's walk with the Lord is like that scene with Jesus on the water and were in the boat and he's calling us to himself.We should embrace the cross.Christians should see the cross as thier friend.If you want to be more like christ endure the pain. Hebrews 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience through the things which He suffered.
Is very encouraging to see such response to this topic of a sinless life. I have in this last year rededicated my life to Jesus and i have found myself on this path that i had missed when i was serving god in my younger years. Without the realization that Jesus has been resurrected, the christian life would be that of head acknowledgement and lip service. Only when the truth of His resurrection goes from the head (which is COMMON doctrine), to the heart (which is NOT common doctrine), will a person find this path that will lead to self death, the personal cross in our life and the joy to suffer the death of our carnal man that we we're born in to being on this earth. Jesus sent his Holy Spirit that we may have life on this earth, not earthly life, but heavenly life. It is my FIRM belief that we are coming into days where the mantle of the prophets of old will again be picked up and displayed on this earth before the return of the Son of Man as the King of Kings.
Lynn ~> I wanted to echo what you are saying about be dead to self. This is very important and Paul was very clear about it. Christ was as well. His example of dieing and burying the old and being resurrected is exactly what we are supposed to follow. Unfortunately from what I have noticed many are not being disciple to do so. Which means they are expected to take up their own cross. Yes, Jesus Christ atoned for our separation from Him and now if we do the same we are able to be connected to Him and He in turn will fill us with His Spirit. I said way back that I believe it is expected of us to live a sinless life and you have said this yourself in the fact that we are expected to die to self. How can we possibly be filled with His presence if there is too much of us still in the picture? God does not use people full of sin. He uses people who are free of sin. None of this means that we will not from time to time be tempted and given to it. Like you said as well. The more we die the less likely we will be to return. He cannot resurrect us if we are not willing to die. Why are people not told this important part of the gospel message?
Amen, I agree. I would rephrase the question to ask "Is there victory over sin in the Christian life?"Does the blood of Jesus really break the power of sin in someone's heart?The problem with the dying of self is that is sounds conceptual but the Holy Spirit exposes some type of sin in my heart am I simply to sin repent, sin repent, etc.? I have found that the Holy Spirit digs to the root and then cuts it out.There is victory over sin through the blood of Jesus and through the power of the Holy Spirit. Although I need to "pray through" to victory as the old-timers would say, it's not about self effort or trying harder.Why are people not told this important part of the gospel message? Because they haven't died at the cross themselves yet. How can a pastor teach this principle unless he's been through the process? It's not some vague intellectual concept or a particular form of theology but something you actually have to walk through.
Because they haven't died at the cross themselves yet. How can a pastor teach this principle unless he's been through the process? It's not some vague intellectual concept or a particular form of theology but something you actually have to walk through As a pastor I can very much agree -- the fact remains that some of the most depressing people to be around when it comes to sin are my ministry brethren. Not only do they not believe in victory over sin, they certainly do not practice it. In fact probably 8 out of 10 that I meet have some theology that justifies sin in a beleiver's life. Including their own.This is very troubling for me as a person who beleives holiness is a big part of revival and as a follower of Ravenhill's belief that revival will start when the clergy learns ot weep again over its own sins let alone the sins of the people. Blessings.
I said way back that I believe it is expected of us to live a sinless life.I don't want to be negative ;-) but 'sinless-ness' is such a negative concept! We are not called to sinless, but we are called to 'holiness'. Sinless-ness is the absence of sin. That in itself it not the gospel. Holiness is the presence and behaviour of the Christ in the believer. Don't measure the work of God in you by what is now missing, but by what is now present. :-)
Habakkuk thanks for your points. To that I would add that they are not really pastoring then if they are missing one of the most important things in which they are supposed to feed people with. Sounds more like carreer Pastors rather than people allowing Christ to Pastor His sheep through them. If they are missing the most important elements of the gospel message than they are really on their own and rejecting Christ in the process.
Edward ~> How can they justify sin and consider themselve followers of Christ as well as teach others to remain in sin. It's completely opposite of what Christ asks us to do is preaching the gospel message to others. And if 80% are doing this in my opinion this is a very serious thing. Seems like repentance and obedience somehow got tossed out the window somewhere. People aren't faithfully following Christ, they're faithfully following their carnal desires.
Thanks so much for posting this article Freecd and both yours and Lyall's responses! Like Ben, i cry out Hallelujah! HOLY HOLY HOLY IS OUR GOD! This is how I have felt as well but i just don't have the ability to express in words these feelings and this article and your responses summed it up so well. Its great to know that we have a community like this that desires to seek first God's Kingdom AND His Righteouesness. blessings,-j
Onfire,I agree completely that people are following their flesh. One of the ladies I pray with made an interesting observation -- "People do this because they do not recognize the danger they are in. If they did they wold pray more for their children, their pastors, their chruch and their nation" I think she is very right. In South Korea for instance their are many, many all night prayer meetings constantly going on -- why? Because there is a madman right accoss their border that coudl do them all in in 30 seconds with a nuclear blast. The church in China prays constantly with fervrency -- why? Because they could be arrested, imprisioned and even killed for their faith. How different this is from us. We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow. In dealing with my fellow minsters I am at a loss -- so many of them see themseves more as businessmen than men of God. I have a very hard time dealing with them and I have becoem sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.Blessings.
philologos wrote:...We are not called to sinless, but we are called to 'holiness'. Sinless-ness is the absence of sin. That in itself it not the gospel. Holiness is the presence and behaviour of the Christ in the believer. Don't measure the work of God in you by what is now missing, but by what is now present. :-) Amen.
We are not called to sinless, but we are called to 'holiness'. Sinless-ness is the absence of sin. That in itself it not the gospel. Holiness is the presence and behaviour of the Christ in the believer. Don't measure the work of God in you by what is now missing, but by what is now present. (as I am reading A.Murray's 'Holiest of All' :)Thank you Ron! I agree.In Him, Chanin
Edward ~> You're on the right track. Having been in leadership in an evangelical church I saw that business side very closely. This is not what Christ established for His Church. It has beome so carnal and people are bowing down to mammon rather to God. I believe God is calling people to come out from amongst those who are turning The Church into a carnal marketplace. I believe that many are called to pastor people, and to care for their spiritual needs. This doesn't need to take place within the system in which man instituted. If we are called out than Christ is able to Shepherd His flock without the contraints that man puts on it and He can use those who are faithful, honest and humble to serve Him.
From a previous post :)From "Conformed To His Image" by Oswald ChambersSin is not wrong doing, it is wrong being- deliberate and emphatic independance of God. Sin is mutiny against God's rule; not vileness of conduct, but red-handed anarchy. When you get sin revealed in you, you know that that phrase is not too strong. It is not that men are conscious anarchists- the devil is the only being in whom sin is conscious anarchy- but that a man perceives that that is the nature of sin once the light of God is thrown upon it.Bear in mind that it requires the Holy Spirit to convict a man of sin; any man knows that immorality is wrong, his conscience tells him it is; but it takes the Holy Ghost to convince a man that the thing he most highly esteems (his own self-government), is an abomination in the sight of God. There is nothing more highly esteemed among men than self-realization, but it is the one thing of which Jesus Christ is the enemy because its central citadel (stronghold) is independance of God.If a man can stand on his own feet morally- and many a man can- what does he want with Jesus Christ and His salvation? with forgiveness? Some men are driven to God by appalling conviction of "sin". Conviction of sin never comes as an elementary experience. If you try to convict a man of sin to begin with you draw him to a plan of salvation, but not to Jesus Christ.The essence of sin is my claim to my right to myself; it goes deeper than all the sins that ever were committed. Sin can't be forgiven because it is not an act; you can only be forgiven for the "sins" you commit, not for heredity. "If we confess our "sins", He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins": SIN must be cleansed by the miracle of God's grace.It does not awaken antipathy (strong feeling of aversion) in a man when you tell him God will forgive him his sins because of what Jesus did on the cross, but it does awaken antipathy when you tell him he has to give up his right to himself. Nothing is so much resented as the idea that I am not to be my own master. If any man will be My disciple, said Jesus, "let him deny himself," i.e.-deny his right to himself, not give up external sins, those are excrescences.The point is, am I prepared deliberately to give up my right to myself to Jesus Christ? prepared to say, "Yes, take complete control"? If I am, Jesus Christ has gained a disciple.We don't go in for making disciples today, it takes too long; we are all for passionate evangelsim--taken up with adding to the statistics of "saved souls", adding to denominational membership, taken up with the things which show splendid success. Jesus Christ took the long trail--"If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself"--"Take time to make up your mind." Men were not to be swept into the Kingdom on tidal waves of evangelism, not to have their wits paralysed by supernatural means; they were to come deliberately, knowing what they were doing.One life straight through to God on the ground of discipleship is more satisfactory in His sight than numbers who are saved but go no further. Over and over again men and women who should stand in the forefront are knocked clean out. When a crisis comes, the reason is not external wrong-doing, but something has never been given up, there is something in which Jesus Christ has not had His right of way, and the discipleship is marred.-------------------from "My Utmost" -Dec 9th...It is not a question of giving up sin, but of giving up my right to myself, my natural independence, and my self-will. This is where the battle has to be fought. The things that are right, noble, and good from the natural standpoint are the very things that keep us from being God’s best. Once we come to understand that natural moral excellence opposes or counteracts surrender to God, we bring our soul into the center of its greatest battle. Very few of us would debate over what is filthy, evil, and wrong, but we do debate over what is good. It is the good that opposes the best. The higher up the scale of moral excellence a person goes, the more intense the opposition to Jesus Christ. "Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh . . . ." The cost to your natural life is not just one or two things, but everything. Jesus said, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself . . ." ( Matthew 16:24 ). That is, he must deny his right to himself, and he must realize who Jesus Christ is before he will bring himself to do it. Beware of refusing to go to the funeral of your own independence.
Sir Edward We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow. You are right on. I believe this to be the case with all my heart. I have become sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.I understand exactly how you feel! I have been and will continue to pray for you. You heart for God and the Truth has been edifying and encouraging to me. I assure you are not alone brother. Even though I know very well at many times it doesn't seem like it, God has kept a remnant and you have many brothers and sisters standing with you in this fight. One that's not even that far away. :-D I hope to meet with you soon.
Here's a very brief synposis on what Wesley described as "Christian perfection." The book is available to view free online at http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/index.htm.BRIEF THOUGHTS ON CHRISTIAN PERFECTION by John Wesley Some thoughts occurred to my mind this morning concerning Christian perfection, and the manner and time of receiving it, which I believe may be useful to set down. 1. By perfection I mean the humble, gentle, patient love of God, and our neighbour, ruling our tempers, words, and actions. I do not include an impossibility of falling from it, either in part or in whole. Therefore, I retract several expressions in our Hymns, which partly express, partly imply, such an impossibility. And I do not contend for the term sinless, though I do not object against it. 2. As to the manner. I believe this perfection is always wrought in the soul by a simple act of faith; consequently, in an instant. But I believe a gradual work, both preceding and following that instant. 3. As to the time. I believe this instant generally is the instant of death, the moment before the soul leaves the body. But I believe it may be ten, twenty, or forty years before. I believe it is usually many years after justification; but that it may be within five years or five months after it, I know no conclusive argument to the contrary. If it must be many years after justification, I would be glad to know how many. Pretium quotus arroget annus? [This quotation from Horace is thus translated by Boscawen: -- "How many years give sanction to our lines?" -- Edit.] And how many days or months, or even years, can any one allow to be between perfection and death? How far from justification must it be; and how near to death? LONDON, Jan. 27, 1767.
Sin is not wrong doing, it is wrong being- deliberate and emphatic independance of God.It is important, I think, to understand that Chambers is distinguishing between "Sin - disposition" and "a Sin - particular act of disobedience".
Sir EdwardQuote: We are at ease -- we have need of nothing and as such we do not see the spiritual darkness is overtaking us. Slowly and little by little it creeps into us as we sleep and in the end we are lost. Sad because the first thing that goes is devotion to God, then holiness before the Lord is soon to follow. Quote: I have become sick of spirit over it at times. Keep me in prayer -- in need wisdom and insight into what to do as a proclaimer of truth. There are times that i feel very powerless and very alone in this fight.How perfectly these quotes describe my state of mind. So many times I have greived over the state of the church and also my own miserable sinful condition. :cry: However, you are not alone there is a remnant of faithful followers who survive! :-D