Predestination

I liked a comment that I recently heard Ron Bailey make in one of his taped sermons. He said something to the effect that " I was predestined to be an Arminian". If that was a misquote; I apologize, and I'll take credit for saying it! :-D Clutch :-P

I agree, and I think that was what Ron was saying in a left handed way.Clutch ;-)

And God hated Esau, so he was predestined to be hated by God. God ordained all of the days of David before one them came to pass. Judas was predestined to forsake the Savior and fall away. Peter was predestined to deny the Savior three times. God predestined Jesus to be forsaken by sinful men, and they will be called to account for the shedding of innocent blood. YHWH predestined Pharaoh's heart to be hardened. God has predestined men to turn the grace of God into sensuality.What can we say to all of this?"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."Amen.

Hi ClutchNow look at the trouble you'll get me into!It was a teasing, throw away question "Was I predestined to be a Arminian?" Actually, I'm not an Arminian either; they were far too Calivinistic for my tastes! :-D Now I'm in even more trouble!

HI OAByour quote "And God hated Esau, so he was predestined to be hated by God"Esau had been in his grave for about 1200 years before God said this. [Malachi 1:2] This is not a reference to a 'he' but to a 'they'. It is not Esau the man who is in the frame but Esau the people. Something said so long after the events can hardly be labelled 'predestination'. This is a prophetic (God's eye view) resume of history not a prediction nor a predestinating decree.My own view of things was beautifully expressed by an English bishop."God's foreknowledge sees everything and forces nothing. It leaves the liberty of the human will untouched. Whatever is foretold by God will be done by man; but nothing will be done by man because it is foretold by God."Christopher Wordsworth Intro to the Revelation.

HORSEFEATHERS and ROMANS 910 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:I agree that we "experience" choice and that the Bible appeals to our will, but that does not negate the fact that the Sovereign God elects. All of us that have had a sudden desire to be converted in the midst of a totally depreaved life understand that the desire didn't originate with us - God put it there. Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."

All of us that have had a sudden desire to be converted in the midst of a totally depreaved life understand that the desire didn't originate with us - God put it there. !Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."Amen!

Gregs response "Those who grew up in the church or lived morally before salvation don't usually have the same appreciation for that "drawing."Amen!Amen, from me too. But God's initiative and enabling grace is not the same as predetermination. Nor is foreknowledge the same as predetermination. I may foreknow that my house is going to be burgled but that doesn't mean I have predetermined the burglary.

Ummm, think that was me (mike/crsschk) responding to the quote from 'nobody' (sounds kinda strange to say that!)But, I also liked Greg's response from Duncan Cambell in this regards.

Sorry Mike. Yes, Amen to your amen anyway.Usually when this topic surfaces we have references to Arminians and Calvinist. I doubt whether either group would have wanted to be associated with me! :-D Most know the Calvinist TULIP Total DepravityUnconditional ElectionLimited AtonementIrresistable GracePerserverance of the Saintsbut I thought it might interest some to know the Arminian position:Jacobus Arminius, Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden, 1603, charged the Calvinist theory of predestination (incorporated in the Confessio Belgica) with making God the author of sin. His developed views on this point were very similar to those of the council of Trent. Though he did not deny election he based it not on a divine arbitory decree, but upon God's foreknowledge of man's merit. In 1618 these views, expressed in the Five Articles, were condemned by a synod at Dort, and the Remonstrants were compelled to leave the Reformed Church.1. the "election" of those who have believed through grace, and who persevere through grace.2. unlimited atonement3. man incapable of reponse to God without grace4. grace the beginning, progress and end of all. Grace not irresistable.5. perserverance dependent upon cooperation with God. \tRefused to commit for or against eternal security.The Five Articles of the Remonstrants 1618.Bettenson. Documents of the Christian Church p 268

OK Ron,Let me get this straight. By your comments may I conclude that you would perhaps consider yourself a CARLMINIAST? :-oClutch :-P

Clutch's comment: "Let me get this straight. By your comments may I conclude that you would perhaps consider yourself a CARLMINIAST?"Some years ago I was in a small gathering of pastors and missionaries in Malawi. We were having a time of fellowship together prior to my 'bringing a word'. We began to introduce ourselves and a formula developed. "this is my name, this is what I do, this is who I am with" e.g. I'm John Smith, I am supporting churches in Blantyre, I am with the Methodists... and so on.I was the last in the circle. "I'm Ron Bailey, I'm visiting and encouraging some African pastors in the area." There I paused..."and who are you with?" they asked.I replied "I'm with anyone who will have me!" That's still my position. ;-) I don't 'consider' myself an anything-ist and I subscribe to no -ism. The Pentecostals think I am Brethren, the Brethren think I am Pentecostal, the Calvinists think I am Arminian and the Arminians think I am a Calvinist. Just an odd-ball I guess, but with a strong sense of belonging to the Church of Christ, horizontally around the world and vertically down the centuries; there is One Body and the Head has added me to it. :-P and BTW, to all my new friends in the forums, "thanks for having me!" :-P

Dear RonBless you. I really like these 'descriptions'; I don't 'consider' myself an anything-ist and I subscribe to no -ism. The Pentecostals think I am Brethren, the Brethren think I am Pentecostal, the Calvinists think I am Arminian and the Arminians think I am a Calvinist. Just an odd-ball I guess, but with a strong sense of belonging to the Church of Christ, horizontally around the world and vertically down the centuries; there is One Body and the Head has added me to it.Odd-ball, yes aren't we all?!Labels. pre-, post, anti, -ist, -ism, non.If I had to give a 'description' it would probably be along the lines of: "Below average student in the school of following Christ. At present failing many courses that will have to be made up. Has a serious distrust of his own thoughts and suffers from too much introspection. Has a flawed understanding of much of theology including 'predestination', which to his way of thinking is like trying to explain how to remodel a bathroom to a gopher, he doesn't understand either. The interstate that runs those 18 inches from the head to the heart is so congested most days finds him searching for an alternate route or crying out the four lettered word prayer, HELP!He is a bit to self-conscious and paranoid, always wondering if his mouth and motives match, if he is trying too hard to be clever and cute, if he is humble enough, doing enough, praying enough, serving enough, studying enough....thinks too much, says too much. Knows all to well that he is a sinner and yet a saint, thinks Romans 7 stops at verse 24, was really a personal letter to himself and would prefer to sit and stew over that with the objection to Romans 8 being for 'everybody else'. Has grandiose plans such as writing the ultimate bestseller with the working title of "Musings of a Scatterbrained Christian".(Seriously!)Longs to be with the Lord, not affraid to die (so he says), yet fears not hearing those celebrated words "Well done good and faithful servant" so would prefer not to show up unprepared, empty handed. Being 5 cans short of a six-pack in the brain cell department, he struggles more than most and then wonders if that is to self promoting, in fact tends to think that everything he does is too self promoting. Wishes that he strike that word from his vocabulary,"self" and just go sit in the bleachers and watch God work, of course then he would feel guilty for not doing anything. Understands wrath better than grace and for the life of him can't understand why God has drawn him to Himself and loves him anyway. Would lay down his life for his friends, maybe even for his enemies. Would tear out his heart and give it away in an instant, usually can be found to be crying on the inside over all that is and has gone wrong. Hates seeing people being mislead, lying, cheating, hypocrisy (especially himself), anything that is false, fraudulent or fake. Loves people, especially other....."people who follow Jesus".Tries to hold to what is true and would reject any notion that he may hold if further light is shown that he was in error. Has one goal in this school of life, to know God and His Son Jesus Christ and just what it is he is supposed to do with that knowledge. O.K. that's more than one.Generally confused, curious and contemplative. Willing to be embarressed if he can learn something from it. In other words, an 'odd-ball'.....Can I go to your 'church' ?

Can I join the odd-ball club?I'm pretty much down the middle too...not an Arminian by any means, and definitely not a Calvinist. I think they're both extremes on the spectrum, and the Bible's truth is somewhere in between those two. All of the verses on how God chose us tells me that the truth is not complete Arminianism...and for example, 1 John 2:2 totally throws "limited atonement" out the window for Calvinists.And I can't stand it when Christians say, "Well, this is what I believe," or, "Well, this is how I interpret the Bible on this point." Too bad! lol The Bible isn't open to human interpretation, so get over it. There's one truth...truth isn't subjective!!And you know, I can be discipled by many wise Christians who God has blessed with the gifts of knowledge and wisdom and teaching/sheparding. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still just men and the Bible is still the ultimate source of growth as far as understanding God's truths go.There is not a single solitary church denomination out there who's got it 100% right. Not one. I'm "just Christian", but I go to a southern baptist church -- they've got some doctine and practices I'm not completely okay with, but I love the hearts of the people I worship with -- they're sincere and they're my brothers and sisters in Christ! (Hooray!)And you know, I'd rather be a "fence-sitter" in man-made doctrine than in faith.Now where's my membership card?

I take John Wesley's statement as my own, "There's just a hair's breadth difference between me and Calvin."I'm probably a little more reformed than Bro. Ron. I would probably fall more into the classical Arminian position.

C7S quote: I'm pretty much down the middle too...not an Arminian by any means, and definitely not a Calvinist. I think they're both extremes on the spectrum, and the Bible's truth is somewhere in between those two.Now this will really show you how odd-ball I am. I suspect the truth lies in both extremes but held at the same time. Understand what I mean? Me neither! :-D

Mike's quote: In other words, an 'odd-ball'.....Can I go to your 'church' ?Sorry, we're already over our quota of odd-balls. :-D

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.Jesus taught that all those given Him by the Father will come and no one else will believe. He even says that he only intercedes for the elect. He lays His life down only for the sheep. The rest are left to wander off to damnation (justice). To reply to Chosen7Stone from 12/2/2003 , if IJohn 2:2 is interpreted to say that Christ's death was effective for the sins of the world, then we are all saved, right?

" For ye see your calling brethern, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise: and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not,to bring to nought things that are:That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That according as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord". I Corinthians 1:26-31So Ron, I guess it's OK that some of YA'LL odd balls got in. And your lot is certainly welcome at my church anytime. Quota or not.Another thing; I noticed that for a FORIEGNER, you have an excellent grasp of the "English" language. :-D Perhaps you could define for me, the word "whosoever", as in " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 10:13; " And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER will let him drink of the water of life freely". You know how us Yanks are , we ALMOST invented the language, but from misuse our understanding has declined somewhat. Just recently we had a President, that did not know what the word "IS" meant. So brother perhaps you could give us a somewhat definative statement on this potentially enlightening word . :-D I'm considering doing with the term Carlminiast, something similar to what Jeff Foxworthy did with the term Redneck, as in : " You MIGHT be a Redneck if....." :-D Clutch

Clutch's quote: Perhaps you could define for me, the word "whosoever", as in " For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Romans 10:13; ...perhaps you could give us a somewhat definative statement on this potentially enlightening word perhaps, somewhat, potentially?? I used to be very uncertain about things but now I'm much more decisive, ...I think. ;-) whosoever, whomsoever (much loved of UK lawyers in the past) are old forms of 'whoever' and in our kind of English it simply means "the person who..." So you have to read the rest of the sentance to understand it.For your Romans reference, Young's Literal Translation has "for every one—whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved". Rev 22:17 is typically John! He loves participles. e.g. "whosoever believeth" John 3:16 is literally "the believing one". (for the techies, it is a present participle preceded by the definite article) He is focused on states rather than events. It shows the character of the person rather than his action. This would read "And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing—let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting—let him come; and he who is willing—let him take the water of life freely." To catch the sense of the character you could translate these "the believer" "the hearer" "the thirster" "the willer". In the way you might have someone who would drive a bus but would not necessarily be a 'bus driver' so you might have someone who has believed but is not a 'believer'. It is not a single act but a continuing state which characterises the person. According to John 3:16 the promise is not to someone who has believed but to someone who is a believer.Bet you wish you hadn't asked! ;-)

Ron, :-D !Clutch ;-)

The foundation of on which Calvinism stands is that of the teaching of irresistible grace. Man is depraved, I agree. But with all other aspects of this doctrine it all stands or falls on the teaching of irresistible grace. Therefore, let us see how this teaching holds up to the word of God. First, the teaching that man cannot resist God's grace means in all reality that man is saved by grace only. There are no other precepts which accompany this thought. Grace alone, stands as the foundation of Calvinistic belief. The word of God teaches, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into His grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2However, Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit teaches that man is saved by grace through faith. We have access by faith into His grace. All grace comes though our relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." The qualifying nature of those who are called, are those that love God. Throughout the entire Scriptures there are two kinds of people. Those who remain and grow in the nature of satan, and those who are redeemed by the work of Jesus Christ. Jesus clearly distinguishes who those are that are His. It is those who obey Him. So again in Romans 8, those who love God obey Him. Those who believe in Jesus, obey Him. Faith is always expressed through the testimony of the work that is evident in the life of one who believes. You become what you believe. Therefore, those who hear His voice and obeys will overtime, be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. The work of Jesus Christ is the only thing that is predestined in God's revelation to us. When we say we are predestined, we run the risk of remaining a lover of self. When we say that the work of Jesus is predestined, then we look to Him who is the author and finisher of our faith. A. W. Tozer, writes, "Only a faith that moves the life can save the soul." So, those who teach a doctrine of grace without understanding the need for us to obey God's voice, teach a doctrine that is not according to the word of God. One more thought, the first man Adam lost what Jesus Christ came to restore. Did Adam have salvation before He fell?As iron sharpens iron, speaking the truth in love

Jeff wrote: In Romans 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." The qualifying nature of those who are called, are those that love God. So, those who teach a doctrine of grace without understanding the need for us to obey God's voice, teach a doctrine that is not according to the word of God. Hi JeffI don't regard myself as a Calvinist but we need to tread carefully here. According to the first quote above you are really saying that 'our love is a pre-condition of grace'. The Calvinist would say that 'love is the consequence of grace and not its necessary condition'. If faith is a 'response' (and I strongly believe it is) it must indicate that God initiated something to which I can respond and that initiation can only have been grace. If grace is dependent on some pre-condition in me it is no longer grace. It would mean that God had responded to some merit in me, but 'in me' there is no merit.However, grace is not only 'unmerited love' it is also 'enabling love'; it makes possible that which could not have been possible without it. So God speaks in enabling grace and awaits my response. The only qualification I brought to this was my 'sinner-hood' in that Jesus came into the world to save 'sinners' and did not come to call the righteous. In this I was able to say 'I qualify'and I could only say that because God revealed it to me.And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose is not saying that God's call is dependent upon my love. It is saying that we know that all things work together for good to thosei) who love Godii) who are the called according to His purposeNeither i) nor ii) is dependent upon the other, neither are they alternatives, it is simply saying that the kind of people we are talking about (the ones for whom all things work together for good) love God and are the called according to His purpose

JeffMarshalek wrote: "One more thought, the first man Adam lost what Jesus Christ came to restore. Did Adam have salvation before He fell?"Reply: Well, I kind of see that as saying, "Does a man need saved from a pit before or after he has fallen into it?"Adam didn't have salvation before the fall because he didn't need it. He was positionaly right with God and in perfect communion. This was destroyed by his disobedience which only God could restore through Christ.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

This is a new forum for me. I have never used the internet to communicate what God has worked in me. I say this because the questions I ask are meant to direct thought.I agree with Hulsey. Genesis 1:31, "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good..." There is no question in my mind which could ever doubt what God said about His creation. Everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good!

Hi Philologos,Thankyou for making clear, what I often times do not succeed in communicating my thoughts clearly. I do not believe Calvin or Armenian(?). I follow Jesus Christ and fail most of the time. Yet He is faithful because He cannot deny Himself. When I first committed my life to the Lord 7 years ago, (I am 47 now), I began to read the Bible. I had no exposure to the Holy Scriptures before then. As I read, Romans chapter 3, I hated what was taught. I thought at that point in my walk with Christ, that there had to be something good in me that would cause me to reach out to God. For three years I sat under the teaching of Calvin. As I read the Word, and listened to the teaching of Calvin, in my heart a bitter feeling grew. Now I know it was the Holy Spirit and His gift of decernment. I left the church, and found a young pastor of 28 years old. The second or third week of my relation with my new pastor, of course, brought the bitterness in my heart up in full view of that young man. My bitterness did not exist because Calvin was wrong in his teaching of irresistible grace, it was because I was denying the truth of Romans 3. That young pastor said the most profound words that have been spoken by a man to me thus far. He said, "The Bible says it, so I believe it." That day those words penetrated my soul. I decided to give up. I now love Romans 3. It has opened to me a door, that door being my Savior. The more I follow Jesus, the more I see how depraved my flesh is. He is killing me softly with His word. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44. Jesus stated a precept in 14 words what took Paul 8 chapters to teach in Romans 1-8. Chapter 3 teaches that man is lost, depraved, and dead spiritually. Chapter 4 reveals the only way of restoration, that is by faith. Chapter 5 is pivotal. Paul points us to Christ. "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, MUCH MORE, having been reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE." Romans 5:10. Chapter 6 defines what God requires of man. Man must die to self. Chapter 7 gives man a view of himself when he tries to live according to the law of God, while relying on the wisdom and strength of his flesh. And chapter 8, Paul gives the solution to overcoming the flesh and the righteous requirements of God's law. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God." Romans 8:14Jesus is our High Priest and King who is continually directing the Holy Spirit to give what is His to us. He is the Seed of the Woman, the Jerusalem above. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will OF THE FLESH, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12-13Chapter 1 of Romans teaches that God calls everyone. But after a time of continual rejection to His call, "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in there lusts of their heart..." Romans 1:24I have found that this is true, even within this site. Let me explain. In the United States, 85% of those who committed their lives to Christ did it between the ages of 4-14. Also 85% of those who do not commit to Christ by the age of 14 never do. On this very website in the polling of this same issue, the numbers are true. Check it out. You see a child like faith opens the door for our Savior. God calls all, but few are chosen. As we age in satan's world we become more hardened to the call of God. Just like Paris Reidhead(?) said in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt," He found out that the men he went to save, LOVED THEIR SIN.in the love of Jesus...

Here's my take on predestination...from an analogy I ran across. Let's look at the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ.I think this sums up my view on predestination/election.

See below message which contains a sentence on desiring to be elect. I'm not going to go too far with this because I need to chew on it a little more, but it sure is interesting that desiring is what allows one to become saved. Not that it isn't involved, but the gifting of God surely precedes it. Imagine the world where the person who aces an exam is the one who desires it rather than the one to whom God has given the gift of superior intellect and the desire to make the most of it. What we in fact see in this world is that desire only takes us to our limits. Our limits are set by other things. Desiring to outrun Olympic athletes in the 1600m isn't enough. One must have the gift followed by much training. My will only takes me places that lie within my boundaries.It is a weak salvation that sees man simply getting on a boat to heaven when the Bible goes on at length about salvation being a complete resurrection from the dead. It also falls apart badly when you conider all the people who desire this at one moment and then are plucked away or scorched (unless you add a sentence about them jumping out or something?) or people who desire it their whole life within a cult. Obviously the cult case shows that desire must be accompanied by Truth. Here's my modification to the analogy. In order to dwell in the House of the Lord for eternity we must be on the boat to heaven. The problem is that the boat cannot contain fallen flesh. No man can enter but Jesus mercifully reaches out to people at the appointed times and gives them the breath of spiritual life and pulls that spirit into the boat. This is still a terrible analogy, but it is significantly improved.No leader in the history of the Bride of Christ ever believed that men can jump on a boat to heaven. It violates the Scripture entirely. I fear that it is a damning heresy at work that tells people to "make a decision" and "walk down the aisle" without preaching God's wrath and repentance to them first. By robbing people of the chance to count the cost we give false assurance to the lost. Jesus pushed away people who seemed to seek Him when He saw that they were not 100% convinced of their wretchedness and need for salvation. How many times have you seen someone brought to complete brokenness from a teaching of the law? How many times have you seen those people recognize their need for salvation and take the Kingdom by violence? These are those who will persevere to the end and become disciples indeed. These are the people saved unto good works. It isn't good enough to find out what people feel that they need and tell them that God can give it. "If you accept Jesus today your life will be better." When the elect of God are drawn they will walk down the aisle after being promised hardship and struggles. They will thank God as they are martyred. The church is in trouble because it has traded the glory of Christ for the glory of numerical success and watered down humanism.If there is one thing I've learned from this website it is that the preaching of 50 years ago makes most preaching of today look pretty sad. I have left my Church-Growth church and have had to look all over the city for a single place that preaches boldly the Word of God. I found one in a city that has contains hundreds of churches. It really hurts me that this is the case. It would be wonderful if God would move and raise up preachers like Tozer all over this country.

In reference to the "ship on the way to heaven" analogy, can a passenger jump off the ship.The question is could he jump off and no longer be on the "ship on the way to heaven" after he was a passenger.Maybe the "ship on the way to heaven" is a poor analogy or provides an answer to another question.Always lots to consider and bring before the Lord.Mike

Adam jumped ship. In ChristJeff

This analogy is a VERY simple look at Predestination and Election. I did not intend it to be for salvation, regeneration, sanctification, etc. It basically states in my opinion, that on the topic of predestination/election that we were chosen as a whole (the church), yet have the individual will to choose to serve our Lord and Master. Once again the analogy was not to serve as an end all be all for salvation and etc. BTW, desire is not enough..the analogy did cover a living faith, meaning a day to day belief in Jesus Christ, and not just believe but living the Word, not just reading it or knowing it.

Let me explain myself perhaps a little more clearly.ELECTION--God's choice of those who believe in Christ is an important doctrine to the apostle Paul (Rom 8:29-33, 9:6-26, 11:5,28; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13; Titus 1:1). Election refers to God's choice in Christ of a people in order that they should be holy and blameless in his sight. Paul sees election as expressing God's love as God receives, as His own, all who receive His Son, Jesus. I feel that the doctrine of election involves these following truths: ( I may split up over several posts.)

1. Election is Christocentric ie, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen". Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect. NO ONE is elect apart from union with Christ through faith. If the analogy were carefully read, you would see that if one does not maintain that union with Christ, he/she is no longer part of the elect and have abandoned ship.2. Election is "in Him...through His blood" (Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins(Act 20:28, Rom 3:24-26).

3. Election in Christ is primarily corporate, that is the election of a people. The elect are called "the body of Christ", "My church","A people belonging to God" and the "bride" of Christ. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church. This was true already of Israel in the OT.4. The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remain conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with Him. Paul demonstrates this as follows: a.) God's eternal purpose for the church is that we should "be holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgivness of sins, and to the church's sanctification and holiness. God's elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (Rom 8:14; Gal 5:16-25). Paul repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (Eph 2:10, 3:14-19, 4:1-3,13-24; 5:1-18.) b.)Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will "present her to Himself as a radiant church...holy and blameless (Eph 5:27). c.) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us "holy and blameless in His sight" only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this to us clearly: Christ will "present you holy in His sight without blemish...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (Col 1:22-23).

5. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Titus 2:11)and becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ. At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Col 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election.

PREDESTINATION--Predestination means "to decide beforhand" and applies to God's purposes comprehended in election. Election is God's choice "in Christ" of a people (the true church) for Himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God's people (all genuine believers in Christ).1.) God predestines his elect to be : called (Rom 8:30); justified (Rom 3:24; 8:30); glorified (Rom 8:30); conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29); holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); adopted as God's children (Eph 1:5); redeemed (Eph 1:7); recipients of an inheritance(Eph 1:14); for the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12; 1Pet 2:9);recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14) and created to do good works (Eph 2:10).2.) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ(the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ.Thank you for your time. Yours in Christ,Shelly

Wouldn't the real question of predestination be (using the ship analogy) HOW did anyone even get on the ship? Did you get onboard out of your own strength or did you need God to lift you up and place you on board?-David

Amen! Shelly. You know the truth! I will have to copy your thoughts for they are concise!In ChristJeff

i'd like to add a little something to this debate. i believe in the total depravity of man. man, when left to his own devises and apart from the drawing of the Holy Spirit, i believe, will always choose sin over God. in keeping with the spirit of that thought, why would i believe that apart from the drawing of the Holy Spirit man would choose to come to Christ. i do not believe that man would. i believe that God predestines and has foreknowledge of all those who will trust in Him. i'm not john piper, but his book 'the pleasures of God' would explain this concept to anyone better than i ever could.

Many are called but few are chosen.In ChristJeff

"God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignity. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, O Lord, Thou knowest. Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God’s omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints” (Tozer) I found this on another site. I don't know its origin.

The quote comes from chapter 5 of Tozer's "The Pursuit of God".