Predestination and Free Will

brethreni am led of the Lord to bring this up again. The Lord had me going through the epistles of bro Paul in Romans 9, he writes about the reckoning of Israel. He writes about how the children of the promise God made to abraham came from isaac and how rebecca's twins before they were born (and so had no chance to do any good or evil) were distinguished by God as one being hated and the other loved. This was all before the foundation of the world. This demonstration of the very sovereingty of God is quite troubling to us is it not? That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world. When bro Paul wrote to the Ephesians he said the same thing in chapt 1 vs 4-5, that before the world was made He chose us according to His good pleasure and purpose. what then does this make of free will? i used to think that the Lord knew ahead of time who would choose Him and who wouldn't but it seems to me a rather creative way of getting around God's sovereingty and allowing for my concept of free will. there are probably a few who think as i did but today the Lord showed me that my concept of free will was wrong. we have free will in the confines of the Lord's sovereign will, we can't do anything that He hasn't decided we can do. concider the vessels of wrath the Lord has created. from before creation these ones had be determined by God to be vessels of wrath destined for destruction so they can't obtain salvation because it is outside the Lord's will.

free will and God's soverignty is a trip. what i have always thought (and i could be wrong) is that God works through our choices. He knows from before we were even made what mistakes we are going to make and things that we are going to chose, and through that in His wisdom He worked out a way that He still has His will done even in the choices that we make....i dont know if that makes sense. it made sense in my head...what about Ishmael? wasnt he out of God's will? could he be someone picked out for God's wrath because He knew from before time that Abe would be disobediant? one time i was witnessing to a guy and he asked me 'if God loves someone so much but He knows before he is created that he is going to hell, why would He even create him?' it goes along with your: That the Lord has mercy on whom He will have mercy and that He makes vessels for mercy and vessels for wrath and has decided this from before the foundation of the world. i wish i knew the answer to that and if anyone does do tell :-) one thing that i havent been able to get my mind off of ever since God shed light on it was just the fact that in His good pleasure and mercy, He chose me. My heart is so broken and humbled by this, that i am a vessle of mercy. Im greatful in my heart for everyone here at SI too who by the abundant mercies of the Lord was chosen to walk with Him and inherit His kingdom and be partakers of His Divine nature. It's so amazing i dont even have words for it. And on top of that, He has opened our eyes and entrusted us with His burden for His church! Praise the Lord, He is so good!!!

hi, when i was outside earlier tonite i walked up to the door to this building and it said entrance, i opened the door and turned around and the same door said exit. anything that is ahead of you is whosoever will may come and as you go through life you will turn around to see Gods sovereign hand in everything.can a traffic light be red and green at the same time? it is always red and green at the same time. it depends upon which way your coming from. the key is IS GOD THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND OUR SALVATION OR IS man. jimp

bro ShirHashirimin romans 9 in this portion answers the why to God showing mercy on whomever He chooses. He is God and He can do that. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?the Lord has shown me though that this showing of mercy to whomever He chooses is a mystery. it is written plainly in scripture how He operates but we need to seek Him through His Spirit for that mystery to be revealed that this enigmatic aspect of God be made plain. let us seek Him then.

Wow, My wife and I have been praying about this very topic for the past couple of weeks.I grew up believing in Free-Will and I think I still do in some degree. However after reading Romans, predesination does seem to make more sense. I know a lot of people use it to say that God has chosen Israel (and I used to believe that), but I just don't see it that way anymore.This verses keeps coming back to my mind: Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

bro Jaysavedwell Israel is still the chosen people of God in that the promises made to Abraham still stand. the promise of that whole land (which is significantly bigger than what the state now occupies) forever and so on. so as gentiles we have no part really in that but we are reckoned righteous and given every Spiritual blessing in God through Christ. Some people believe that now the church is the new state of Israel but Paul says in the letter to the Romans in chapter 11 that this is not true. God has not abandoned His people but has caused them to stumble not so they fall but so that we gentiles can be grafted in to the tree and in so doing provoke them to jealousy so that they may be grafted back into the tree after the full number of gentiles is brought in.

If what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him. As if God were proud or had some kind of Ego complex.

ShirHashirim,As for why would God create someone knowing they will choose be damned? The one line answer is this:Because the chance of Love is worth the risk of loss. The more than one line answer is this (as far as i've figured it out anyway):Also how can creation appreciate the true beauty of light if there is no darkness?God allowing those to be created who, reject every offer of goodness, and choose damnationserves several purposes:1. It proves to everyone that there really IS a choice and shows the concequences of both. If only rightous people were allowed to exist then our "Freedom of will" would be in name only. If we were not automotons we would at best be moral infants never having learned obedience by the things we suffer. 2. It shows and demonstrates the Goodness of God in that He doesnt just wipe out those who choose to reject Him. It give God an oppoutunity to demonstrate His mercy in a practical way. Again it Illustrates and proves His Chracter. 3. It shows that God is redemptive, even in that those who choose evil can be ultimately used for something Good. Only a master artist can make a mistake into a work of art. Even in the destruction of the wicked poetry is found. It's an all Powerful God who can make even Judgment beautiful. 4.Thus those who reject Him still play a role. God clearly places the choice before us to be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. We all the time know our children make the wrong decisions but to deny them the chance to make the right ones would not be love...even if we know what they will choose. Remember, not one person in Hell will protest being there but will cry in anguish over their own folly. If those in Hell dont think God is unjust then shouldnt we, here on earth have the same opinoin?

quote 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Jesus contradicts this, saying:Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Matt 12:25What's the point of striving and prayer if you are destined for wrath? We all have complete free will within our gift of life. You think about and plan and go about your day in the way you please, don't you? How obvious does this need to be? No vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse is going to convince me otherwise. bubbyguy in all due respect, the vague, misunderstood Old Testament verse you are referring to is Romans 9:21.If God choses to make some people his objects of wrath, that is his decision and his right to do that. Take a look at Pharaoh in Exodus. Paul says in Romans 9:17-18 - "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." I am not completely abandoning the "free will" doctrine but I have to make it line up with the word of God and Romans (to me) clearly teaches that God predestines some people for destruction and some for mercy.The question was asked, "Why then should we witness?" Because the Bible says that we should. God has used us to be ambassadors for the gospel and it is our job to spread the good news.John 6:44 says "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him:John 3:16 says, "whosoever believes in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have eternal life". What must we do to be saved? Believe that Jesus is Lord. But how does a person come to Jesus? God draws him/her. Is it possible to believe that God draws some and not others?I am still trying to figure this out myself. I am leaning more towards predestination but I grew up on "free will" so I still lean in that direction as well.

How might this thought correspond to what is taught in Roman's 9?2Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. In ChristJeff

bro bubi'm not sure how the scripture you quote about Christ saying a kingdom divided can't stand contradicts the one of the Lord saying through Paul that the potter makes vessels of mercy and of wrath :-( could you explain that?as far as how i plan my day, i used to do as i pleased until i realized that while i was in the Father's permissive will i really needed to be in line with His perfect will so now i try to do as He would have me do. you may want to keep doing as you please but i don't...i do not always carry this out but i thank the Lord He has quickened me to being sympathetic to His perfect will.Also remember Christ quoted many O.T. scriptures, in fact those are the only scriptures he quoted because the n.t. wasn't complete as we know it. the o.t. isn't just a must read but if we don't understand it and study it, the new testament means nothing to us. One could try and say tha the o.t. is done but it is abolished in as much as the law is the key to righteousness, we are not exempt from following the law coz Christ said so Himself but we are reckoned righteous through Christ and not the law. Some may say that the Lor doesn't judge as harshly in the n.t. but look at revelation and annaias and sapphira...we had better not neglect the O.t.

bro SJIf what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him.why preach the gospel? to find the vessels of mercy...read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and you will see that it is so. We are created in God's image in that we are tripartite beings, body soul and spirit as He is tripartite, Father Son and Holy SPirit. What the Lord is saying to me is that we have gotten the concept of free will wrong. it's not that we can do any old thing but we can do anything in the confines of the Father's will. I don't see how this keeps the Father from turning those against Him to ones being for Him because we are all born at odds with Him because of our sinful nature and are saved still. our concept of what free will is is wrong. this predestination is a mystery which needs that we seeek the Lord on it with all diligence and if need be we must cast away whatever doctrines we hold dear if the Lord reveals them to be contrary to what He would have us believe...not many of us are willing to do so hence all the false traditions in the "church" which we hold dear.

bro Jaysavedit is a hard thing to understand isn't it? let us seek the Lord for the revelation of this mystery. i believe though that our concept of free will is wrong and letting the Lord correct us on that will make a huge difference. the text is plain enough, the hard part comes in when we try and make it fit into what we believe, i think we should adjust our beliefs as the Lord leads. Correct us Lord.AMEN

Not to derail the post..but since i dont know how to pm. I say this:Christ chose Paul and approved of him. To question Paul is to question Christ. You cannot accept Christ and reject Paul for this reason:Christ spoke not on His own but by the Spirit,Paul spoke not of his own but by the Spirit.To reject any Scripture (Peter says Paul is Scripture)is to reject the Spirit (who inspired it) which is to reject Christ which is to reject the Father.This is why Christ stressed that He did NOT speak of His own authority but by the Spirit of the Father. So He tied His own authority to the Father, so to question Christs choice of Paul or to question Paul AT ALL is to question God Himself. To not believe that the Holy Spirit can speak flawlessly though flawed men is to have more faith in the power of man than God. That's not good...

Forced Love is not love.If God makes us Love Him then it is not Love plain and simple. Calvanists insist that God makes people convert against their will. This is by definition NOT love. Also, yes we have a threefold nature just like God, but we have a moral nature just like God.He can choose between good and evil (of course evil is an abomination to Him so He would never choose it) but it stands that He could otherwise Christs temptations was just a bit of good acting. Man, who is in Gods nature, can choose between good and evil. Otherwise all the commands in the Scripture to choose are mere cruel mockerys if we cannot "choose this day whom you will serve." It's mere theatrics according to pure Calvanism. It becomes nonsense to say "God so loved the word that he gave His ownly begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." and "Whosoever will may come" and most cruel yet is "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and i will give you rest"This doctrine of Christ only dying for the "elect" is what held people in bondage in Finneys day brother, they wanted to be saved but was instructed that they could not be unless God had enabled them. Finney taught that it wasnt that you cant be saved it's that you wont [make the decision to] be saved. Ephesians 1 teaches that Christ is the predestined one and that we become part of him when we believe. We enter into His predestination as it were. Romans 9 has to be taken in context with other Scripture like:2 Timothy 2:20 "20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."A man can choose to go from being a vessel of dishonor to a vessel of honor by repentance and faith in Christ. It also says "If a man." not "If an elect man"In other words the invitation is open to anyone, if God intended it to be exclusive He would have framed the invitations that way. If the Gospel is not to everyone how are your hearers supposed to know if it applies to them or not?To say "Those who respond must be the elect" sounds like an excuse more than a theology.Not that you do that, i'm just saying... Not to sound rough, but Calvanism killed itself. It led to passivity for the most part (some exceptions allowed) and so it died the death of time. I admire Whitfield and others like him but i cant say i understand them. Why even pray for someone who is going to be converted anyway and if they are not you waste your prayers on an infidel who has NO chance of conversion and you never know who is who. At least i can see hope for every one of my prayers because there's no gurantee ANYONE will be lost and there remains the good chance that ANYONE might be saved. Calvanism is a hopless system it is the doctrine of Evolution did you know that? Everything is predetermined. It is the doctrine of Islam "if Allah wills it." i dont then see how it can be the doctrine of Christ also.

sj,Please explain how Romans 9 is being taken out of context.Thank you.Edit: You are saying that it needs to be taken in context with the other scriptures and I would like you to explain more about that.Thanks

John 16:7-12 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.Who is the One that convicts of sin, and Judgement? Why does the world need to be convicted of sin and judgement? Who is Righteousness? Is it the devil that makes me do it? This plainly shows that the devil is judged already and we can't blame our unbelief on Him anymore. All that we have for salvation is from the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.We cannot acknowledge the truth unless God give us repentance. Once all this has been accomplished all we have left is to believe, and to those that won't believe, they are already chosen for destruction. Destruction was chosen for us by Adams sin in the garden and unless God steps in and provides all, even to the ability to repent and believe, the ones left are these that are the ones that are chosen for destruction. Destruction was already there, but God has chosen some for honor that God might be glorified. This is how it was all predestinated before the foundation of the World that we might be in Christ.Ephesians 1:4-12 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. God did not choose to destroy endividuals, they were already destroyed in the garden, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.God did choose those that would believe for His Glory. This is about as close as I have come so far to the Glory of Predestination and Choice. And Yet the Holy Spirit is still revealing the things that Jesus said to the apostles that could not receive at that time. We are receiving those things now and will continue to receive them throughout all eternity. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us that we would be Glory to the Father by His only Begotten first fruits Son of those that become son's.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.We are identified with Christ and in Christ, by His works. Paul from his mothers womb chosen to preach this mystery and even before that.Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, (my works) then Christ is dead in vain.In Christ: Phillip

bubbaguyok we will go back and forth through the private message then

bro SJNot to derail the post..but since i dont know how to pm. I say this:Christ chose Paul and approved of him. To question Paul is to question Christ. You cannot accept Christ and reject Paul for this reason:Christ spoke not on His own but by the Spirit,Paul spoke not of his own but by the Spirit.To reject any Scripture (Peter says Paul is Scripture)is to reject the Spirit (who inspired it) which is to reject Christ which is to reject the Father.This is why Christ stressed that He did NOT speak of His own authority but by the Spirit of the Father. So He tied His own authority to the Father, so to question Christs choice of Paul or to question Paul AT ALL is to question God Himself.To not believe that the Holy Spirit can speak flawlessly though flawed men is to have more faith in the power of man than God. That's not good...indeed!

SJForced Love is not love.If God makes us Love Him then it is not Love plain and simple. Calvanists insist that God makes people convert against their will. This is by definition NOT love.by the way i'm not a calvanist or anything like that, i don't know much about the man nor what he believed.Who says that God showing us how to love Him is forcing us to do so? Are we able to love Him of our own strength and accord? our very sinful nature makes this impossible and so this required the Lord to step in. We could not convert of our own strength or will even because such devotion is alien to the sinful nature of the flesh. again i say that i belive that our concept of free will is wrong and we need to let the Lord correct us. Also, yes we have a threefold nature just like God, but we have a moral nature just like God.He can choose between good and evil (of course evil is an abomination to Him so He would never choose it) but it stands that He could otherwise Christs temptations was just a bit of good acting.Man, who is in Gods nature, can choose between good and evil. Otherwise all the commands in the Scripture to choose are mere cruel mockerys if we cannot "choose this day whom you will serve." It's mere theatrics according to pure Calvanism.Christ came to do the will of the Father (whom you said never would pick evil) so it stands then that Christ was bound by the will of the Father so He could not sin. Christ always prayed the Father's will be done. It becomes nonsense to say "God so loved the word that he gave His ownly begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. and "Whosoever will may come" and most cruel yet is "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and i will give you rest"This doctrine of Christ only dying for the "elect" is what held people in bondage in Finneys day brother, they wanted to be saved but was instructed that they could not be unless God had enabled them.Finney taught that it wasnt that you cant be saved it's that you wont [make the decision to] be saved. "see it's only cruel seeming if one holds to the popular notion of what free will is, i strongly feel that we need to reexamine or rather let the Lord examine us and correct us on this thing. if people in finney's day then didn't go out and evanglize or were apathetic because of this then that says to me that those people were dead wrong also in applying this scripture. Those who are called to be vessels of mercy are sent to seek out other such vessels so that scripture can't be used to justify sitting on one's butt. It also says "If a man." not "If an elect man"In other words the invitation is open to anyone, if God intended it to be exclusive He would have framed the invitations that way. If the Gospel is not to everyone how are your hearers supposed to know if it applies to them or not?To say "Those who respond must be the elect" sounds like an excuse more than a theology.Not that you do that, i'm just saying...the invitation is open to all but only the elect can respond, if one is not first called of God or has the truth of Christ being God's son revealed to him by the Father (like what happened with peter) then he can't come to God. now people can use that as an excuse to sit on their butts if they want to, but at their own peril...Not to sound rough, but Calvanism killed itself. It led to passivity for the most part (some exceptions allowed) and so it died the death of time. I admire Whitfield and others like him but i cant say i understand them. Why even pray for someone who is going to be converted anyway and if they are not you waste your prayers on an infidel who has NO chance of conversion and you never know who is who. At least i can see hope for every one of my prayers because there's no gurantee ANYONE will be lost and there remains the good chance that ANYONE might be saved.again i'm not a calvanist. as fo why we should pray for someone who will be converted anyway, it's because the Lord commands us to do so, now it may not make sense but then again who knows the mind of God and who has given Him counsel? :-? seems like one of those Job questions to which the Lord responded "who is this who darkens my counsel with words without knowledge'...nothing happens outside of the will of God so He is in fact All Sovereign.Ephesians 1 teaches that Christ is the predestined one and that we become part of him when we believe. We enter into His predestination as it were.bro This stirred something in me and i shall have to meditate on this further for the Lord's revelation. somehow i feel that is important not sure how or why though

Bro ChristinyouWho is the One that convicts of sin, and Judgement? Why does the world need to be convicted of sin and judgement? Who is Righteousness? Is it the devil that makes me do it? This plainly shows that the devil is judged already and we can't blame our unbelief on Him anymore. All that we have for salvation is from the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.whoa..heavy stuff bro...i am reminded of Peter when He confessed Christ as the Son of God, christ said to Him that only the Father could have revealed this to Him. and Christ prays not for the world but for those whom the Father has given Him because they belong to the Father (john 17 vs 9)so ultimately the Father is the one who draws people to Him.God did choose those that would believe for His Glory. This is about as close as I have come so far to the Glory of Predestination and Choice. And Yet the Holy Spirit is still revealing the things that Jesus said to the apostles that could not receive at that time. We are receiving those things now and will continue to receive them throughout all eternity. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us that we would be Glory to the Father by His only Begotten first fruits Son of those that become son's.bro this issue of predestination is a most heavy and deep mystery and we should continue to seek the Lord on it. i see He is making some things clear to you for our benefit and revealing things to us that we would understand this mystery. This is heavy heavy stuff and is not for the faint of heart.Praise the Lord that He is revealing things to us for His own glory. Lord maek plain this mystery to us, in Christ's name. AMEN.

To be quite frank:I dont have an answer and I'm not satisfied by yours either.Now when i say "satisfied" i believe i mean that it sits wrong with me Scripturally and not that my moral "taste" is offended. I pray i dont confuse the two.About the "elect" not evangelizing How can vessels of mercy disobey if Jesus could not disobey? We both are ruled by the same Spirit.Christ did not have a different Spirit than us, he walked as a man filled with the Spirit of God. The difference is He obeyed perfectly we do not. If we can resist and grieve the Spirit, so could Jesus if he so chose. He never did it, but he COULD have. He is not a robot, he is Gods Son!His choice was real, so is ours. He choose rightly and therefore empowers us to do the same. What Christ did was utterly heroic in every sense! To say that He could not have sinned is to say that He is not the victor but an actor. But nevertheless, i encourage you to study 5 point Calvanism also known as TULIP and see the logical conclusion of what you are beginning to believe. Also it's worth looking at the fruit it has created, which as i said before it passivity for the most part. (my opinion of course)Oh yeah about Romans 9 "out of context" let me say instead lets look at it "in a broader ccontext" that is in light of All Scripture, which is to include that scriputer from 2 Timothy about people cleansing themselves from being unclean to choose what is clean. I simply dont agree that man could not choose God. If God commands men everywhere to repent that must mean He has enabled men everywhere to repent. God never gives commands without the abilty to keep them. However i do agree the Holy Spirit convicts and the Holy Spirit "Helps" people choose Christ.Not makes, He's not called the "Maker or the Do'er" He's called the Helper. I probably wont stay of this thread much longer because.1. I dont feel comfortable that i am knowledagble enough on this subject to express my views in a coherent enough matter.2. Everyones pretty much decided anyway3. No one will get saved or closer to God as a result. 4. I'm not entirely sure that it can be known and so falls to me in the "doubtful disputations" category. I will try to answer any questions i might have raised so as not to duck and run but still, keep in mind that i'm not sure how to "say it" even though i feel like i "know it".

I probably wont stay of this thread much longer because.1. I dont feel comfortable that i am knowledagble enough on this subject to express my views in a coherent enough matter.2. Everyones pretty much decided anyway3. No one will get saved or closer to God as a result. 4. I'm not entirely sure that it can be known and so falls to me in the "doubtful disputations" category. I will try to answer any questions i might have raised so as not to duck and run but still, keep in mind that i'm not sure how to "say it" even though i feel like i "know it".I know what you mean. I am trying to understand this topic as well, but I must not let it consume me so as to neglect my time with God. I pray that God would grant me wisdom to understand his word and that my choices would be pleasing and honorable to him.God Bless.

Dear Ironman, I have not read through everyone's posts, but there are a few things I would like to point out in observations of your post. I would like to ask you a question. When you have sinned, did you sin because God made you sin, or was it your choice to sin? Did God cause you to sin, or is God good? I am sure you would answer this: your sins are your own. God did not cause you to sin. And so, it was by your own free will that you made the choice to sin. Don't misunderstand. God is supreme, and His choices are supreme. God can choose to do anything. God can choose to do evil. However, God is good. God is good because He chooses to be good. However, not everyone can accept that God is good. We must trust that God is good. God is great!!When God created Adam, God gave Adam free will. You and I have free will because God allows us to have free will. It is not because we are better than or greater than God. Rather, it is God's choice that we have free will. In order to make our free will possible, God established a system in time and space. What is free will?..................................... It is to have a will apart from God's will. It means we can make choices and act upon those choices that apart from God's supreme will and God's supreme Word. If God says to you, "Sit down Ironman." You can say to God, "No, I don't want to sit down." In turn, God could strip you of your free will and force you to sit down. God has that power. He can do anything. However, God would never do such a thing as to rape a person of their free will. Rather, God punishes us with consequences. He contends with our souls. God respects and honors our choices. God gave us the ability to make choices. God gave us free will. Notice that God did not remove our free will in order to save us. Rather, God gave His Son unto death in order that we could be saved. Additionally, God honors our choices by sending us to Hell. God could strip us of our free will and force us to be good. Instead, God honors us by sending us to Heaven or Hell. The choice is ours whether or not to repent and have faith in God. About the hardening of hearts.....................................Don't confuse the hardening of a heart with the removal of free will. In our lives, we are constantly influenced by other things in our choices. God also may influence our choices, but He does not remove them. Our choices are our own. We always make the choice to sin. We cannot blame the Devil, we cannot blame other people, we cannot blame circumstances, and we cannot blame God. Our sins are our own fault. We made the choice.However, God is supreme and God is good. Thus, if God wants to influence our choices or harden our hearts, He may do so. Take for instance the Pharoh of Egypt whose heart God hardened during the ten plagues. God did not force Pharoh to choose such contempt and hatred toward the Hebrew nation. This was Pharoh's choice. However, God did harden Pharoh's heart. This means God made it so that Pharoh would not turn so easily from His choice. In doing so, God made it so that Pharoh would not show pity onto the Israelites, and ease up on them. God did not strip Pharoh of his choice. Rather, God hardened Pharoh's heart. God caused Pharoh to be firm in His choice. Does not God do this with us when we are saved? Does not God also confirm our choice in Him by giving us a new heart? About predestination.....................................God knows everything. God knows everything before it happens. We, however, are limited to time. We only know what we have learned, and truly, we can only be certain of the present. Our memories fail us at times. Many people confuse predestination with foreknowledge. Predestination means pre-determination. This means that God determines our choices before they happen. Is that true? Does God make our choices for us? If God does make our choices for us, then it is God who sins. Does God sin? God does not sin. The choice is ours. We make the choice to sin. And so, our choices are not predestined. However, God does have foreknowledge of our choices. This means that God knows what choices we will make before we make them. Way before we made any choices, God devised plans on how to react in accord with our choices. God created consequences to our choices. God also devised a plan to save us from our sin. Even more important, God chose us first. About God choosing us first.....................................Many people also confuse this statement. God gave each of us free will. Let us not forget that God is a person too. God has ultimate free will. God is not a computer program or equation that can be manipulated to suit our own desires. God is love. He is a real person with emotions. God has a heart and soul just like we do. Let us not forget this. A relationship of love is one where two people come together in love by choosing each other as thier object of love. For instance, a man and woman come together into a marital relationship by making a commitment of love to each other. They choose each other. Long before any of us was created, God chose us. He dreamt about us and what we would be like. His intention was that all be saved. He created us with a relationship of love in mind. He wanted to create something that could choose Him out of love, just as He chose them out of love. And so He created humanity and gave us free will. Many people overlook that God chose us all. God chose to love us all. God is love. God does not hate some people and love others. God loves each and everyone of us. However, God cannot force us to love Him. Some people choose not to love Him. Some people choose to love themselves rather than love God. What can God do? He honors thier choice and lets them go. He sends them to Hell. He casts them far from His presence. God is life. They are cast away from life unto death. God is peace. They are cast into a place of deep anxiety and gnashing of teeth. God is love. They are cast into a place where they burn forever with a broken heart. God is good. They are cast into a place of eternal evil.God has chosen everyone to be His lover. However, not everyone has chosen God. That is why we are saved by faith.We are saved by faith.....Faith is trust. To have faith in God, means that we trust Him. Trust is an essential part of a relationship of love. How many people do you know with a successful marriage and yet they don't trust each other? How can you love someone if you don't trust them? The horrible act of sin of Adam and Eve was that of mistrust. In the garden of Eden, God told Adam, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Adam and Eve did not know what death was like. They had no idea of the horror of evil. However, did they need to know? Adam and Eve should have trusted God. When the moment arose to make the choice of love, they did not trust in God. In thier heart, they did not have faith. Not only did they not trust Him, but they also defied God. They sinned. They acted on thier mistrust by eating from the tree. The reason they sinned, however, was due to the fact that they were not God. And only God who is good, has the ability to not sin. And so, they needed to be born again into the Spirit of God. If they had the Spirit of God, they would not have sinned.However, if Adam and Eve would have been created with the Spirit of God from the very beginning, then Adam and Eve would have never had the chance to choose God. Adam and Eve would have had the goodness of God, but without the choice of love. Which means that thier goodness would not have been pure. It would have been based upon selfishness and not love.God made a way so that we all could choose Him. Before anyone is born again, before God renews them and makes them new, they must make a choice of love. They must choose God by a leap of faith. By doing this, they are giving themselves to God in love. When this happens, then God makes them good. Abraham, though he was a sinner, had faith. He chose God. His choice was demonstrated in his faith. He had not been born again because Christ has not yet died. However, Paul said that His faith was credited to Him. Even though he lived before Christ, his faith was credited to him, meaning that Abraham could cash it in when the time came. Likewise, we all are saved by faith. Before we can be born again, we must make a choice. Will we choose God or not? Will we choose to give ourselves to Jesus Christ? Will we recognize that we are bad, and trust that God is good? Do we believe that Jesus can and will save us? This choice is not an easy one to make. A war rages inside when the times comes. Even still, we must always remember that God is a person. And God will show mercy upon whom He chooses. I have never known Jesus to turn anyone away. Even still, it is the choice of Christ whether or not to save someone. We cannot save anyone. We cannot save ourselves. It is entirely up to Christ to choose us. We are saved by God's grace, which means, we are saved by the favor of Christ. Conclusion..............I trust that God is good. I believe in the love of God. I don't believe Jesus would turn anyone who truly repents and gives thier heart to the Lord, recognizing Him as Lord, and choosing Him as thier object of love in faith. I believe that it is the Lord's will that all be saved. (Ezekiel 18:23,32; John 3:17; 1 Timothy 2:4, 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9)I believe that the Lord has given us the choice to love Him. And I encourage everyone I know to make that choice. The is nothing greater than the love of God.In love,Blake

bro SJas i said before this is a great mystery which requires that we seek the Lord on it and share as we are led.About the "elect" not evangelizing How can vessels of mercy disobey if Jesus could not disobey?Christ did not have a different Spirit than us, he walked as a man filled with the Spirit of God. The difference is He obeyed perfectly we do not. this statement by you underscores that point. it seems logic fails somewhere along the line.To say that He could not have sinned is to say that He is not the victor but an actor.Christ could have done His own thing but He came to do the will of the Father and in so doing was not able to sin. the victory is in that when He was presented with the choice, He sought to do the Father's will not His own and in so doing was not able to sin.you know bro, going back to what you said a couple of posts back concerning us becoming predestined when we come to Christ, there is something in that that still strikes me. is our predestination's start point when we accept Christ?but then again how can we accept Christ unless the Father draws us? :-? it seems the Father ultimately has the final say.As far as Calvanism goes bro, i don't subscribe to that theology, i'm seeking the Lord in all this and He is making plain some things to me though this thread and those who've contributed to it. as far as people being passive, again people can be passive at their own peril, the Lord has not made me to be so. i will look into the tulip as the Lord permits. about cleansing oneself (from 2 timothy) we ourselves can't do this but the Lord can, if the Lord qickens us to our filthy state then will we will seek Him to cleanse us.I simply dont agree that man could not choose God. If God commands men everywhere to repent that must mean He has enabled men everywhere to repent. God never gives commands without the abilty to keep them. but men rarely (or repent less often than they do) and the hardening of pharoah's heart comes to mind... :-? this is a deep rabbit hole... :-? :-? this is a great mystery which i believe the Lord is revealing to us as we go further in this discussion.bro i thank you though for what you have shared and if the Lord is leading you not share any more, then by all means be obedient to that,if He would have you share more then please do that we may all be edified. i don't think it's so much that everyone's mind is made up as it is we're seeking the truth and if indeed i am wrong on some things concerning this, i pray the Lord correct me. i'm seeking the Lord in this and i'm gratful for this place in which the Lord can rub us together and work the kinks out of our beliefs so we can be conformed to Him. 2. Everyones pretty much decided anywayis that from the tulip/calvanism? :-P may the Lord continue in His work of setting us straight in Him.AMEN.

Brother Phillip wrote:Who is the One that convicts of sin, and Judgement? Why does the world need to be convicted of sin and judgement? Who is Righteousness? Is it the devil that makes me do it? This plainly shows that the devil is judged already and we can't blame our unbelief on Him anymore. All that we have for salvation is from the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.Ezek 184 \t“Behold, all souls are Mine;\tThe soul of the father\tAs well as the soul of the son is Mine;\tThe soul who sins shall die. Ezek. 18:21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? As you have said brother:No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.This is absolutely true. Man cannot know God unless God reveals Himself to man. Man cannot repent unless God reveals Himself to man through the Holy Spirit.Paul writes about how God turns men over to their own destruction because they deny Him.Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Rom. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. We know that God desires all to come to repent and that one can only repent if God reveals Himself. We also know that God gives up on men. What does this mean for men who God gives up on?In ChristJeff

bro JaysavedI pray that God would grant me wisdom to understand his word and that my choices would be pleasing and honorable to him.agreeing with you in the Spirit and praying this for us all.AMEN

bro blakeI would like to ask you a question. When you have sinned, did you sin because God made you sin, or was it your choice to sin? Did God cause you to sin, or is God good?we can't say God caused us to sin because that's not God's nature, it's ours. however the Lord is not ignorant of this and He is not sitting in heaven just letting things go haywire and our will as it were does not supercede his Supreme will. nothing happens without the approval of God, like the scripture says, who can resist the will of God?about forknowledge i was reading one of the commentaries on crosswalk and according to that, the word for forknowledge is also rendered as for-ordination. Likewise, we all are saved by faith. Before we can be born again, we must make a choice. Will we choose God or not? Will we choose to give ourselves to Jesus Christ? Will we recognize that we are bad, and trust that God is good? Do we believe that Jesus can and will save us? This choice is not an easy one to make. A war rages inside when the times comes. but who can come to God of his own free will if the Lord has not called him forth?bro this is indeed a great mystery and i'm seeking that the Lord make it plain to us by pouring out His SPirit and wisdom on us. we're wrestling with this and i know the Lord will give us increase in understanding this mystery. i think though that we have to examine what free will is for i think it has been influenced heavily by culture and the world hence this perception of free will as we know it being at odds with the plain text of the scripture as it pertains to predestination. Lord correct us and conform us to yourself.AMEN

is our predestination's start point when we accept Christ?Yes. That's when i believe our predestination starts. Christ is the train called predestination, we are the passengers that choose to get off the train we are born into which is called damnation get on Christs train. We enter into His destiny. We He is there shall we be also.Which is how we can be saved before the foundation on the world, chosen etc. because Christ was. We entered into that. Which is why the believer is utterly predestined because we gave up our right to oursevles at the cross. "I am crucified with Christ and I NO LONGER LIVE but CHRIST who lives in me." but then again how can we accept Christ unless the Father draws us? Good question. Think of this: God calls all men to repent. He sends His Spirit to all men to HELP them repent. (He is the Helper) Only some yield to the calling of the Spirit, others resist. But everyone has the ability to simply yield to what God has already done in Christ, and currently presses on them to do. If it were not for the help of the Spirit i never could have repented, but even with the wooings of the Spirit i could have resisted. Bro, during the revival, people were so convicted of sin they would literally get up and run either to the altar or to the door. It was their choice.God did not physically or otherwise MAKE anyone go to the altar or to the door (damned or saved). They responded to His offer. The Spirit is the HelperWe are the do'er"The Helper doesnt do and do'er doesnt help." -Curry Blake

SJ et ali heard it said on another thread that you are in fact a sister? i've been referring to you as brother and if you are a sister then forgive me. something that got lost in the shuffle or really what is at the heart of it all if not the mechanics of predestination (this is proving to be a hard thing to comprehend) but rather what we are predestined to. in going back and forth with another brother the Lord reminded me that we see through a glass darkly, perhaps the Lord will not reveal the mechanics of it all on this side (maybe He will, not sure) but the fact is before the foundation of the world we were chosen...Being called of God to be vessels of mercy means we have to go out and sow the seed of the gospel to quicken the other vessels of mercy. let us keep this in mind as we go on, as vessels of mercy we have work to do...God bless

Ironman: Brother, I think you've hit the matter on the head--man is trying to see eternity from time's point of view.C.S. Lewis writes,"'...If ye are trying to leap on into eternity, if ye are trying to see the final state of all things as it will be (for so ye must speak) when there are no more possibilities left but only the Real, then ye ask what cannot be answered to mortal ears. Time is the very lens through which ye see--small and clear, as men see through the wrong end of a telescope--something that would otherwise be too big for ye to see at all. That thing is Freedom: The gift whereby ye most resemble your Maker and are yourselves parts of eternal reality...Ye cannot know eternal reality by a definition. Time itself, and all acts and events that fill Time, are the definition, and it must be lived. The Lord said we were gods. How long could ye bear (without Time's lens) on the greatness of your own soul and the eternal reality of her choice?'" Indeed, the flesh cannot stand before the divine, as seen with every prophet and apostle who has come into contact with angels and, especially, the Lord.In the same work (The Great Divorce), Lewis comments:Nothing, not even the best and noblest, can go on as it now is. Nothing, not even what is lowest and most bestial, will not be raised again if it submits to death. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. Flesh and blood cannot come to [Heaven]. Not because they are too rank, but because they are too weak...""One cannot pour the ocean into a pint Jar" -R.A. Torrey

Donald Stamps, the commentator for the Life in the Spirit study Bible, writes this illustration concerning Predestination:Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the Church) is chosen by God to be His very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and His ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ.In Christ,Benjamin

Dear Ironman,who can resist the will of God?Every human being that has free will can resist the will of God, but only because God allows us to have free will.The only way we can sin is by being allowed to resist the will of God. It is not God's will that any of us give way to sin. God does not want anyone to sin. We sin, because we resist God's will.about forknowledge i was reading one of the commentaries on crosswalk and according to that, the word for forknowledge is also rendered as for-ordination.Then maybe forknowledge is not the approprate word. I was trying to show that just because God knows what we would choose before we would choose it, does not mean that God made the choice for us. We make the choice to sin. but who can come to God of his own free will if the Lord has not called him forth?Who has the Lord not called? The door is open to everyone. We have all been called. If we are alive, then God is calling us. If God stops calling us, if the Spirit of the Lord stops contending with our soul, then we die instantly.Genesis 6:3 (NAS)Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."The Hebrew word used for "strive" is "Diyn". This word means: to judge, contend, plead.While we are alive, God is judging us. He is contending with our soul. When God judgement has been executed, we die. The following scriptures also show that God is calling everyone. God does not want anyone to die. It is God's will that all are saved.(Ezekiel 18:23,32; John 3:17; 1 Timothy 2:4, 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9)Hope this helps,In love,Blake

Bro Blakeconcerning the scriptures you posted, the Lord had me go through 2 Peter 3 vs 9 and he showed me this: The "us" which is being referred to in the Epistle (in reference to the Lord's longsuffering toward us) is the "all" that God would have saved. The "us" and "all" therefore refers to the body of believers strictly, not all men. In John 17 vs 9 Christ is in prayer not for the world but for those whom the Father has given Him, which started first with the disciples but it filters down to the elect across time. at any rate no one may come to the Father unless the Father draws him. At the end of the day, i am convinced in my spirit of predestination as the scriptures state, it is plain that before the foundation of the world God chose His own, the mechanics of that are proving to be difficult to comprehend and unsurprisingly so for who knows the ways of God and who has given Him adivce?Since these mechanics are a mystery (which the Lord may or may not reveal) the fact remains that there is an elect and the role of the elect which are quickened is to sow the seed to reach out for the elect that has yet to be quickened.Let the elect serve the purposes of the Father.AMEN

No man can get to Christ unless the Father give him. No man can get to God our Father unless thru Christ.In Christ: Phillip

Found the following on this website:http://www.adrian.warnock.info/2005/12/spurgeon-on-predestination-and-free.htmSpurgeon on predestination and free willThe system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

bro JaysavedThese two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.i guess this would explain the headaches associated with this whole issue? i feel led of God now to focus on being a vessels ofmercy and what responsibilities come with that. thank you all for being used of God as He had me wrestle with this.God bless and keep you.AMEN

Brother Phillip wrote:No man can get to Christ unless the Father give him. No man can get to God our Father unless thru Christ.Paul says the same thing in Romans 3:Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. Rom. 3:10 As it is written:\t“There is none righteous, no, not one;11 \tThere is none who understands;\tThere is none who seeks after God.12 \tThey have all turned aside;\tThey have together become unprofitable;\tThere is none who does good, no, not one.”13 \t“Their throat is an open tomb;\tWith their tongues they have practiced deceit”;\t“The poison of asps is under their lips”;14 \t“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”15 \t“Their feet are swift to shed blood;16 \tDestruction and misery are in their ways;17 \tAnd the way of peace they have not known.”18 \t“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Jesus is teaching about man's depravity just like Paul does here.In ChristJeff

A good book to read in general is R.A. Torrie's Difficulties in the Bible; here is his stance on the Arminian/Calvinist (Free will/Predistination) issue:Our One-SidednessThe eighth class of difficulties contains those that arise from the many-sidedness of the Bible. The broadest-minded man is yet one-sided; the truth is many-sided; and the Bible is all-sided. So, to our narrow thought, one part of the Bible seems to contradict another. For example, men as a rule are either Calvanistic or Arminian in their mental makeup, and some portions of the Bible are decidedly Calvinistic and present great difficulties to the Arminian type of mind, whereas other portions of the Bible are decidedly Arminian and present difficulties to the Calvanistic type of mind. Yet both sides are true.Many men in our day are broad-minded enough to be able to grasp at the same time the Calvanistic side of the truth and the Arminian side of the truth, but some are not. And the Bible perplexes, puzzles, and bewilders them; however, the trouble is not with the Bible, but with their own lack of capacity for comprehensive thought. So, too, Paul seemed to contradict James, and James seemed sometimes to contradict Paul, and what Paul said in one place seems to contract what he said in another place. Nevertheless, the whole trouble is that our narrow minds cannot take in God's large truth.Torrie goes on to say, "It is as necessarily difficult to put the facts of infinite being into the limited capacity of our finite intelligence as it is to put the ocean into a pint cup."Therefore, on the issue of predestination, I find my mind troubled with, "How can a man be responsible for what God has willed him to do?" (such as Pharoah's hard being hardened); with Free Will, "How can Christ then say nothing can take us out of His hand?" (of course, my figuring is that, though no outside source can remove us, we ourselves can demand to be set down--like Lucifer being able to walk on God's holy hill, yet [in spite of being Second in Command] he rebelled).Ultimately, let's seek to further the Gospel where ever we are, since we cannot trust to fate to bring people to Christ (esp. since Christ commissions us all to preach the gospel: Matt. 28:19,20)In Christ,Benjamin

Dear Ironman,I once met a woman whom I wanted to marry. Of all the woman in the world, I chose her to be my wife. I elected her. I chose her specifically for the purpose of being my wife and bearing my children. She was not the most beautiful woman on the planet, not the most good, but I favored her. I showed her my love and stood by her through many hardships. At first, she was mine. She had great faith in me and wanted to be my wife. I knew this to be true in her heart. We enjoyed a happy and healthy relationship. After some time, though, she began to lose interest in me. She had been looking at other men. Even though she bore a ring on her finger, a symbol of my promise to her, she still went chasing after other men. Days past, and my heart was sore. The day came when she finally left me for another man. A man who did not measure up to what I could offer her. A man that who would never love her like I had. And yet, she still chose this other man and left me. What could I do? Though I had chosen her, it was not her will to be with me. She did not want me. She left. And so, the door opened to all women that I may choose anyone of them. I would take anyone who was willing to come to me. I wanted her to trust me and have faith in me. And so, I waited until that right woman came to me. This is my experience, however, the Lord endured something similar. The Lord's chosen people are the Israelites. The Lord made a promise to Abraham. Later, Jesus, King of the Jews, came to save the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:21-28) However, because the people of Israel rejected Him, the Lord opened the door for all to come. Anyone who will repent can come to the Lord.It takes two to make a relationship. A marriage forms from a commitment of two. Just as God has elected us and chosen us out of the world, so do we have to choose Him. Not everyone will choose Him. Our free will is essential for the purpose God has for us. We are to share in an eternal union of love with God. If we do not choose God, if we do not have free will and the ability to make that choice, then how can we have share in a union of love? If we do not have free will, and all our choices are predetermined by God, then we can't be married to God in a union of love. For marriage can only come about by two people choosing each other making a commitment of love. In love,Blake

Praise God, Paul did not leave it there. Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.God took care of every problem that man has. In Christ we are truly free of sin when we are in Christ Jesus. This is our salvation, I was saved in spirit, I am being save in soul, and I will be saved in body. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];In Christ: Phillip

Well hello there, I really appreciate the discussion.The Bible certainly does teach predestination, but it teaches it in the context that God knows the hearts of man and will only commit himself to those who "diligently seek him," and those whose hearts are after him.God would not repeatedly call after the rebellious children of Israel to repent and turn toward him and follow his ways and seek after justice, etc., if they had no ability to do so. The Bible teaches that God's predestination is according to his foreknowledge, and that he "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." God has done everything in his power to bring men to himself (except force them), but men still choose their own ways.Do you guys think I've said what is biblically accurate?-Caleb Miller

Brothers and Sisters,I only have one trouble with Predestination (Hey, Brother Karl, I agree, God's plan is far greater than anything I could come up with ;-) ): What of men like Hitler, Stalin, Domician, Pharoah, Kantz, etc.?If they were the "vessels fitted for destruction", then how could they be blamed for being evil? Weren't they following the Will of God for their lives? What of the many false apostles, preachers, and the antichrist? Wouldn't they (esp. the antichrist) follow what God prophesies concerning them?OR would it be that God is eternal, having past, present, and future ever before Him as though it were all present unto Him, thereby knowing the route of Time itself?See, how can a man be blamed for being vile if he was following his wyrd (fate) to disobey God's laws, statutes, and His Son's sacrifice? How can one disbelieve if one is forced to be blind, hard-hearted, and dead in sins?We've been trying to just argue from the saved side, but the damnation of sinners is final if they are not elected by God, not if they repent of their ways (according to Predestination); why then would God waste His breath to tell all of Israel to "Repent ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings" (Jeremiah 25), knowing that few would turn? Wouldn't it be better to inform the prophets to go to "so and so", rather than all?Indeed, predestination says, "Some can't come before God"; Free will says, "Some people choose not be saved."I'd rather fight this war hoping that all I come in contact with can come to Christ, rather than praying, "Lord, place a mark on every man that would show who is elected and who is damned".Just some thoughts,Benjamin

I am sorry, I don't understand how anybody can call God unfair if He has predestinated anyone to destruction. Every single one of us from Adam to the last death at midnight tonight deserve death and hell, and beyond. It is a miracle that God has given His only Son that some, or even one that would not receive their just come up pens. If we blame anyone we should blame Satan, he is the one that God had to make a plan to show that Satan is wrong in his selfish want to be God attitude with all of creation looking on and wanting to know the outcome. We have enough intelligence to know that God cannot allow Satan to prosper in his endeavor. In choosing a being that is lower that the angles to defeat and show all creation who God really is and He is all about Mercy and Love, but will not allow anybody to have His Throne, there is no legacy when God dies and wills everything to someone else. There will be no take over of the Throne, even Jesus Christ when His work is done He will return all those that have been given Him to the Father and also subject His own self to The Father and The Father will become All In All. 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.I just praise God all the time that I even had a chance to be one of His son's. How could this be I did not deserve it and certainly could not achieve it by my good works. It is such a pity that we are still arguing whether God is fair when people go to hell, which every one of us deserves. It is a much greater pity that we are not on our knees in tears of joy that This God that everyone keeps trying to make Him unfair, has given even one of us mercy and Grace and made us son's and daughter's of God in Christ Jesus.Merry Christmas, everyone, In Christ: PhillipChristmas is just another day we can praise God for His Son and our undeserved Grace and mercy.Lets make everyday Christmas. I vote yes.

Man is free to choose that which he desires. True freedom exists in the ability to choose what you desire.God is completely sovereign and man is really making real choices and he is really responsible.God never forces anyone to do anything against their will. He changes their will.Before Christ shone His light on us and enabled us to see Him for who He is, in our unregenerate state our desire was ALWAYS sin.Our will was in bondage to sin. We will never choose anything other than sin.Then God does a work of regeneration in the unbeliever and changes their will and at that point a sinner is Justified, regaining our free will, which is the "ability to rightly choose that which is right" is the process of sanctification.If Christ has set you free, you are free indeed!Peace and God Bless!I highly recommend reading a book called "God's Greater Glory", I think the author's name is Bruce Ware. If you are willing to really wrestle in your mind about this topic, read Jonathan Edwards' book Freedom of the Will.

hi!man chose death in adam and was at enmity with God;and still is condemed already. that is justice. God comes to man and adopts them by his love; and that is mercy.man is the created and God is the creator.YOU MUST BE BORN FROM ABOVE...you cannot birth yourself. thank Him for choosing you. preach to the masses,demonstrate His love in humility and purity and God wil even use someone like you or me in his plan. jimp

sj wrote: is our predestination's start point when we accept Christ?Yes. That's when i believe our predestination starts. sj,What about Paul saying he was chosen from his mothers womb? He realized his election began before he made any choice to accept Christ.Still not convinced? "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; he will drink no wine or liqour, and he will be FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHILE YET IN HIS MOTHERS WOMB" Luke 1:15This quote is talking about John the Baptist and obviously he did not "accept Christ" yet did he?These two examples alone utterly destroy the theories that try to explain away predestination(at least in my mind). God interfered with both of these men before they made ANY choices, and he did with you also, weather you care to accept it or not.As a side note, and this is an honest question and not some sort of set up, but where does the Bible teach that God somehow "woo's" us?

The analogy of "wooing" is found all throught the OT where God describes Israel as a wife whos more often than not is unfaithful. It is also the goodness of God that leads men to repentance, He sends His rain on the just and unjust, He is constantly expressing His love and mercy to this earth. How many sinners do you know who can testify to times where God bailed them out? He is wooing them so to speak. To the Christian: Song of Songs is a pretty good example of how God romances the heart of His Bride. As far as John the Baptist:Are you insinuating that John never sinned or could not have chosen to reject his calling?I dont see a problem with Gods forknowledge filling John from the womb any more than i do God calling Samson before he was born. One failed the other did not. CHOICES. To whom much is given much is required. I see that we live in a real world with real choices and concequences not a Theather.

Jaysaved,Beautiful Spurgeon quote!

Not a sister. Yes I'm a brother. I guess my post about how God touched my wife was a little ambiguous. Sorry. "in going back and forth with another brother the Lord reminded me that we see through a glass darkly, perhaps the Lord will not reveal the mechanics of it all on this side (maybe He will, not sure) but the fact is before the foundation of the world we were chosen.."Sounds like wisdom to me. I for one am going to try to enjoy God more and explain Him less.

Dear Karl,I understand your deep desire for the Lord and to follow His will. The fact you honor His will as supreme is an awesome recognition that God is in fact your God. However, I believe we must be careful in saying that nothing can resist God's will. Ultimately, God is in control. His plans will prevail. Evil will not conquer over good. God has not allowed anything or anyone to gain more power or footing than He. God is supreme. However, for a time, while evil does exist, there is a force present that can indeed resist the will of God. Evil does exist. God is good. I am sure you would agree. God's will is good. All of God's motives and intentions are good. There is no conflict in God. There is no sin in God. Rather, evil is the opposite of God. Evil is that which opposes God and resists Him. If God were good, then how could evil exist? God, who is good, cannot create evil, for if He did, then He would be evil. God did not create evil. And yet, Evil exists. Evil came about by it's own choice. God did not create man to be evil. God created man to be good. However, Adam made the choice to sin. God did not stop Adam from sinning. God gave Him that choice. God gave Adam free will. God can stop all evil at any time. He could destroy all of man and all the demons. However, God allows evil to exist for a greater good. God allows evil to exist so that people can be saved from it. Even still, this permission, this allowance of evil, is the allowance of a force that can resist the will of God. Evil resists the will of God. The goal of evil is to destroy God, and it does so, by defying or resisting the will of God. It is not God's will that anyone should die. It is not God's will that anyone should sin. However, God has given us the choice to do good or evil. If we choose to do evil, is it because we have chosen this by our free will, or is it because God made us sin? If we say, "Nothing can resist God's will", this means that it is God's will that we sin. This means that our sins are not our fault, for we were only doing God's will. That is just not true. It is not God's will that we sin. However, God allows for sin to happen and exist in order that people might be saved. How can anyone repent of thier sins, if they don't believe that thier sins are thier own fault? We cannot say that nothing can resist God's will. Everytime we sin, we are resisting God's will. Everytime we sin, we are going against His will. The evil in the world is not God's fault. It is our fault. Praise the Lord that He chose to save us from our sins. May we all repent for the evil we have brought upon God who is good.In love,Blake

Scriptures from the NAS bible....John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,Ezekie 18:32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.Matthew 18:14 "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."Jesus opened the door for all to come. Salvation is available to anyone who will come. However, not all will come. HERE IS A QUOTE BY OSWALD CHAMBERS:-----THE DRAWING OF THE FATHER John 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him.When God draws me, the issue of my will comes in at once - will I react on the revelation which God gives - will I come to Him?Discussion on spiritual matters is an impertinence. Never discuss with anyone when God speaks. Belief is not an intellectual act; belief is a moral act whereby I deliberately commit myself. Will I dump myself down absolutely on God and transact on what He says? If I will, I shall find I am based on Reality that is as sure as God's throne.In preaching the gospel, always push an issue of will. Belief must be the will to believe. There must be a surrender of the will, not a surrender to persuasive power, a deliberate launching forth on God and on what He says until I am no longer confident in what I have done, I am confident only in God. The hindrance is that I will not trust God, but only my mental understanding. As far as feelings go, I must stake all blindly. I must will to believe, and this can never be done without a violent effort on my part to disassociate myself from my old ways of looking at things, and by putting myself right over on to Him.Every man is made to reach out beyond his grasp. It is God who draws me, and my relationship to Him in the first place is a personal one, not an intellectual one. I am introduced into the relationship by the miracle of God and my own will to believe, then I begin to get an intelligent appreciation and understanding of the wonder of the transaction.In love,Blake

I saved this post for occasions like this. Sister Shelly wrote:Let me explain myself perhaps a little more clearly. ELECTION--God's choice of those who believe in Christ is an important doctrine to the apostle Paul (Rom 8:29-33, 9:6-26, 11:5,28; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13; Titus 1:1). Election refers to God's choice in Christ of a people in order that they should be holy and blameless in his sight. Paul sees election as expressing God's love as God receives, as His own, all who receive His Son, Jesus. I feel that the doctrine of election involves these following truths: ( I may split up over several posts.) 1. Election is Christocentric ie, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen". Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect. NO ONE is elect apart from union with Christ through faith. If the analogy were carefully read, you would see that if one does not maintain that union with Christ, he/she is no longer part of the elect and have abandoned ship. 2. Election is "in Him...through His blood" (Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins(Act 20:28, Rom 3:24-26). 3. Election in Christ is primarily corporate, that is the election of a people. The elect are called "the body of Christ", "My church","A people belonging to God" and the "bride" of Christ. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church. This was true already of Israel in the OT. 4. The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remain conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with Him. Paul demonstrates this as follows: a.) God's eternal purpose for the church is that we should "be holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgivness of sins, and to the church's sanctification and holiness. God's elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (Rom 8:14; Gal 5:16-25). Paul repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (Eph 2:10, 3:14-19, 4:1-3,13-24; 5:1-18.) b.)Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will "present her to Himself as a radiant church...holy and blameless (Eph 5:27). c.) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us "holy and blameless in His sight" only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this to us clearly: Christ will "present you holy in His sight without blemish...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (Col 1:22-23). 5. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Titus 2:11)and becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ. At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Col 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election. PREDESTINATION--Predestination means "to decide beforhand" and applies to God's purposes comprehended in election. Election is God's choice "in Christ" of a people (the true church) for Himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God's people (all genuine believers in Christ). 1.) God predestines his elect to be : called (Rom 8:30); justified (Rom 3:24; 8:30); glorified (Rom 8:30); conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29); holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); adopted as God's children (Eph 1:5); redeemed (Eph 1:7); recipients of an inheritance(Eph 1:14); for the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12; 1Pet 2:9);recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14) and created to do good works (Eph 2:10). 2.) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ(the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ. Thank you for your time. Yours in Christ, ShellyIn ChristJeff

I am lazy and hate reading long posts, OK, I have been working through this thread for 3 days give or take. I mean no disrespect to any of your thoughtful and protracted postings; this is a hard question to discuss because there is so much supporting both points of view.This is one of those questions I think I would like the Lord himself to speak. I wish Scripture had covered this a little more. There are so many clues, one that sticks in my Mind is one of Jesus commands; Our Lord ordered us "to go and make disciples". He did not say collect them, or search them out, He said MAKE, ok if my bible translation is a little off, I know there are a lot of you guys that can set me straight on this point. However, since we are to be PROACTIVE, does that not speak that all things are NOT predestined?I feel like a dog chasing his tail on this one, I think of that line in the movie the matrix, a splinter in your mind you just cannot remove it.Well God Bless you all forgive the long post but this has to be one of the Thought Magnets in the Christian Faith.

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.If this Christ is born again in the believer, just because the believer did believe, and God gives new birth to the spirit of a man which becomes by birth the Spirit of Christ, then how can a believer, even by his own volition kick out Jesus Christ the Seed of the Father, when that perfect Seed is now like the 12 year old Jesus of Nazareth. If we stay in the Law we will loose any salvation given by God. If we stay in the Grace of God our salvation is sure and we become like the 12 year old Jesus, and Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.So the war is in our minds not in our position. It is the Holy Spirit's responsibility to teach us these truths about Jesus Christ and our new birth, which brings the Nature of God the Father and The Son to make Their Abode with us, and the Holy Spirit of Promise by Jesus Christ Himself will teach us all things. This truly is predestination and if Christ is in us and for us who, can separate us form the Love of God? Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Hbr 7:26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; This is our position in Christ, He is our High Priest and we are His kingdom of priests, because of He that is birthed in us. We are waxing strong and growing in wisdom just like Jesus Christ did because of the Father's oneness in Him, just like the Oneness we have in Christ.He is higher than all priests and by His Priesthood we are this kingdom of priests.Hebrews 7:21-28 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. He has made us priests' because He is the Son not a mere priest but Our High Priest, even higher than Melchisedec: Jesus Christ is the Son and we are sons' and daughters' of the Same Father. Nothing saves to the utmost but Jesus Christ.Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Man thinks he can get out of God's Hands just by being a sinner or thinks he has his own will and can run away from God. Wrong. God has justified all this by killing His Own Son that we might become son's. IN Christ Phillip

sjI'm just pointing out the FACT that God, prior to ANYTHING or ANY DECISION on John's part filled him with the Holy Spirit.Are you going to tell me that the Holy Spirit fills unregenerate people? Are you saying that a calling is the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit?

It really is not hard to understand you guys.Once you quit asking "WHY?", the Bible is very clear on this.God has an elect whom he predestined (note predestination is ACTIVE, not PASSIVE, this is not a passive observance of forseen faith, if it were it would no longer be predestination becuase God would no longer be the cause.) to glory. Those whom God has not predestined He has simply left them in their WILLFUL state of rebellion and hatred for Him. God owes no human anything, the only thing God owes anyone is His just wrath and eternal punishment for the treason we have comitted against our creator.God does not say to someone who wishes to be saved, "You cannot because you are not of my elect." The point of predestination is that those who do call on Jesus and who are ultimately saved, were predestined. God does not force anyone to choose agianst their will. We are REALLY making REAL CHOICES, will be REALLY RESPONSIBLE.The Bible teaches three things:God is in control of everything.Man is really responsible and making real choices.God is not the author of evil.This is what the Bible teaches, and this is what I believe.This issue of God's sovereignty and man's will is not so confusing if we would just have faith like children and take God's Word for what it says without asking "WHY?" all the time. The answer to the "WHY?" is because God is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, all wise, it is because His ways are so much higher than ours, it is because His decrees are immutable, and inscrutable.Maybe God knows a little bit more than we do, and maybe we should just humbly sumbit to what He has revealed in His Word without always asking "WHY?".Peace and God Bless!

gzus wrote:Once you quit asking "WHY?", the Bible is very clear on this.Whose asking why? The real question, "are you a son of God or a son of Satan?"How do you know is the other real question? In ChristJeff

Let me clear up what I meant by that.When discussing this topic with anyone, the underlying question is ALWAYS "WHY?"The Bible CLEARLY teaches Predestination and the Sovereignty of God in all things.The question "Does the Bible REALLY teach this?" is more often than not a cover up for the real question in their hearts "Why would God do this?", or "This doesn't make sense", or "It's not fair.", "Well then aren't we a bunch of robots?", "This is against God's character."I can answer all of those questions logically, but in the end the final stumbling block is "WHY?"The answer to the question "Are you a son of God or a son of Satan?" is not a complicating one Scripturally.The book of 1 John makes it very clear who are sons of God and sons of Satan.I highly doubt "How do you know?" is the real question. The Bible even uses the words Predestination and Election. Look at the definitions of those words in the Bible and there is the answer to that question.Peace and God Bless!

rookie you just made those definitions up!Predestination is not merely a decision but a DECREE. If it is merely a decision it is no longer Predestination, by defintion. It is His Decsion based on His Decree.OF COURSE PREDESTINATION IS COORPORATE, BECASE THE COORPORATION IS MADE UP OF INDIVIDUALS! TO HAVE COORPORATE PREDESTINATION, AND SOMEHOW OVERLOOK THE INDIVIDUALS THAT MAKE UP THE COORPORATION IS FOOLISHNESS!

Brother Gzus wrote:The answer to the question "Are you a son of God or a son of Satan?" is not a complicating one Scripturally.I always point to Genesis 3:15 as the point where God first declares who the sons of Satan and the sons of God are. And yes, all who are of the woman and her Seed are predestined to be saved by the 'Life." I highly doubt "How do you know?" is the real question. I believe all these discussions concerning election, predestination, and free will finds its roots in the teachings of men who seek to create definitions and methods by which men decide whether they are saved or not. Scriptures always teach that God declares to men who are saved and not the other way around. Systematic theology gives assurance to those who proclaim they are the sons of God. But what does Scriptures say?In ChristJeff

Easton's Bible Dictionary Predestination [N] [B]This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Genesis 21:12; Exodus 9:16; 33:19; Deuteronomy 10:15; 32:8; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 12:22; 2Chr 6:6; Psalms 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isaiah 41:1-10; Jeremiah 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2,6,9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Romans 9:11,18,21; 11:5; Ephesians 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2th 2:13; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2. (See DECREES OF GOD; ELECTION .) Hodge has well remarked that, "rightly understood, this doctrine (1) exalts the majesty and absolute sovereignty of God, while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. That no one can either complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. It brings the inquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Christ. In the case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepens his humility and elevates his confidence to the full assurance of hope" (Outlines).

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

to believe in predestination, that is that God chooes who is going to be saved and who is not, makes a God a respector of persons. Acts 10:34 peter says that God is not a respector of persons. if predestination means selection, then God is wrong in Romans 10:13. if predestination is correct then God made a mistake when he had paul write in the book of romans that verse. there are many, many others. it is not predestination, it free will, if you don't want it you don't have to take it.

hi, is God omnipresent,onipotent,sovereign? does the bible say that election is true and also predestination?Yes ... does the bible also say that whosoever will may come? does it ay that we have free will?yes does the bible say you have not chosen me but I have chosen you? does the bible say that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved? it seems clear that if one is poarized on this issue they are probably in error and should not accuse anyone else of anything. my take? i choose to honor Gods soveriegnty and greatness rather than mans.jimp

bro Claydoughplease take the time (if the Lord leads) to read prayerfully Romans chapter 9 and then the rest of this dicsussion. The long and short of it is this, the Lord is sovereign and does as He pleases. our perception of what free will is is largely based on the Anglo-American idea of freedom, pursuit of happiness, you can do what you want kinda thing. the truth is though that nothing happens outside of God's will, so your decision to come to Christ is based on whether He calls you or not. i think C.S. Spurgeon said it best when he said that (and it's a couple of pages back so you should check it out if God leads) this mystery that is predestination and the Lord's election is one that we won't understand this side of heaven but only when we get there. the thing is it's actually both, predestination and free will but our free will is subject to God's sovereign will. what i learn from all this discussion is that the Lord has called me to be a vessel of mercy and so i'll be that, when i get to heaven i'll be sure to ask Him to reveal that mystery to me if He will.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.Lets say that you know your wife so well that you know what she will do after a certain event, say supper, you know that she always calls her mother right after she gets done eating; so you make plans around her phone call. It is sorta like that with God. He knows us so well that He knows exactly what we will do from the foundation of the world. so he calls according to His knowledge of who He knows will Believe on His Son.Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.He predestins us according to His foreknowlage as said above.

Bro Logicthe word foreknew is also rendered fore-ordained in the greek. the idea of election by grace actually speaks to the Lord's sovereingty in electing or choosing those that He would choose by Himself. anything other than the election of grace is an attempt at salvation by works. the Lord hated Esau from before he was even born (read Romans chapt 9) but loved Jacob and this was so that the Lord's election would stand making sure that there would be no perception of the Lord's favour on Jacob because of his works and to show that it was because of God's own grace.the thing is our perception of free will is such that we think we can operate independant of the Lord's will which is not true. that idea is based more on Anglo-American philosophies on freedom that what the Lord says. our will doesn't override the Lord's neither does anything happen outside of His will.the bottom line though is this, we'll not be able to understand this mystery on this side of heaven as C.S. Spurgeon said in a post put by bro Jaysaved a couple of pages back. also see jaysaved's post from eaton's bible dictionary on predestination a couple of posts down. however the thing is we who are saved are God's vessels of mercy and we should conduct ourselves as such and seek after the Lord to reach out to His other vessels of mercy.

the Lord hated Esau from before he was even born (read Romans chapt 9) but loved Jacob and this was so that the Lord's election would stand making sure that there would be no perception of the Lord's favour on Jacob because of his works and to show that it was because of God's own grace.You have read that part of romans in a wrong contexed. You can not make this scripture about individuals. If you use correct exegesis you would know that God was talking about the two Nations which Jacob and Esau represeanted:Gen 25:23 "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Rom 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: :7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. :8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."Isaac is the Son of Promise in which Nation His Seed will come out from. The seed of Esau are the children of the flesh, wich God did not choose. So the "love and hate" statements are of Gods choice in which Nation He would choose or not choose.Jeremiah 18:6 "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." And again the referance of clay and a maker is talking about the Nation Israel wich is in contexed with Romans 9.the thing is our perception of free will is such that we think we can operate independant of the Lord's will which is not true.I will say that if I murder someone, that would be out of the will of God, or any sin for that matterRomans 9:21,22 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"But2Timothy 2:20,21 "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to [/b]honour[/b], and some to dishonour. :21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."This is saying that the vessels of wrath can choose to be a vessels of honor.If God does not Choose, predestin, or will all to be save, He is not an all loveing God! If he wills all to be saved which the Scriptures sais He does, then all would be saved, but in reality they won't. The reality of this prooves our choise in the matter.

hi logic, what you are saying is that God chose israel,a small family in a big world, to the exclusion of the rest of the world.true.. the rest of the people had no chance but salvation came to the jews.Jesus said these are not my sheep... have you seen any goats turn into sheep or vice versa... have you seen tares turn into wheat or vice versa... let God be God and don't try to figure it all out so that it is up to man. jimp

Bro Logiclike i said this issue is not one that can be resolved this side of heaven and i also said that the 2, free will and predestination are the same thing, an expression of God's sovereignty. this mystery will only make total sense on the other side so i'm not going to discuss this further.there was aportion of Romans chapt 9 which is key in all this which yo left out in your response and which we all need to take into consideration. that is vs 20 which asks us who are we to talk back to God about what He has done.And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder F35 shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? bro the bottom line is we are called to be vessels of mercy therefore we should set ourselves to doing what vessels of mercy do. If God does not Choose, predestin, or will all to be save, He is not an all loveing God!says who? can you tell God He is wrong for anything He does? Can i? can we march up to heaven and complain bitterly to convince Him to do other than what He has purposed in Himself?bro the nations of Jacob and Esau can't be separated from their fathers, it was because of God choosing from between the 2 whom He would love that their destinies were sealed. the whole point was to show God's sovereignty and grace as being independant of anything we can do. noone can come to God lest the Father calls him.we're vessels of mercy and that's the bottom line so we have to set about the task of doing what vessels of mercy do.

Quick question:What does Paul mean when he says, "Israel of God"?Galations 6:12-1612Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. 14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

Quote: If God does not choose, predestine, or will all to be save, He is not an all loving God--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Says who? Can you tell God He is wrong for anything He does? Can I? Reality says, thats' who.If you had a boat that can hold 20 people and 20 people needed saved, then you came and only chose 5 when all 20 were present, would that be a loving act? no, that would be wrong even for God, for God is rightious and just.But, if those other 15 people chose not to step in the boat with you coz they hated you, that would be more like how it is in realityGod is a God of reality and reason, if it makes sense up there, it will make sense down here.Can we march up to heaven and complain bitterly to convince Him to do other than what He has purposed in Himself?The answer is 100% Yes, but not with that attitude of "complaining bitterly"Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."That obtaining mercy, and finding grace can also be for someone els and not only for you.The key is about the matter of prayer?If I never had prayed for my brother, God wouldn't have saved him.Ezekiel 22:30 "And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. :31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD."

by JaySaved Quick question:What does Paul mean when he says, "Israel of God"? They are the true people of God.Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.Colosians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

They are the true people of God.Both Jews and Gentiles?

Both Jews and Gentiles?Yes, only as long as they are circumcised with the circumcision made without handsEphes. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];Ephesians explains this most in both chapt. 2 & 3

If the "Israel of God" implies Christians and Christians make up the Church...isn't Paul calling the Church the "True" Israel (of God)?

Yes, but don't forget that the actual Nation of Israel (even though unsaved) remains his also.Don't get cought up in the replacement theary which is the church today is replaces Israel. Some promises in the Bible can be only for the Nation of Israel.Gen. 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.He still claims Israel as His:Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.The whole end times revolve around the Nation Israel. In the end He will save them because they are His also.

If the "Israel of God" implies Christians and Christians make up the Church...isn't Paul calling the Church the "True" Israel (of God)?The honourable mention which the apostle makes of them that thus walk by scripture rule, according to the law of the new creature, which is Paul's gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, written in the heart: which is Christ in us, Paul calls them the true Israel of God, the spiritual seed of Abraham, Which is Christ, the children of His faith; not Abraham's faith, But the Faith of Christ which was a thousand times greater privilege than to be the children of Abraham's flesh: these are the persons interested in His blessings. Romans 10:5-10 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) In other words my faith won't ascend into heaven and save me: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) by the same thought, my faith won't give me the blessings of the resurrection: But what saith it? The Word (who is the Word? Christ is the Word) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Christ is the Word and His words are in our mouth and He is birthed in our Heart and the Word of Faith, which is the faith of Jesus Christ in us, this is what saves us by Grace through Faith, His Faith. Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.So it is not the righteousness or faith of Abraham that saves us it is the Faith and Righteousness of Christ that makes us the Israel of God, We are heavenly creatures new by the Grace of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ that has made us son's of God.The earthly Israel of God is still hear on this earth and that is where God will deal with them that are the Children of Israel, in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:The earthly Israel of God is still hear on this earth and that is where God will deal with them that are the Children of Israel, in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.I think God is dealing with all of humanity in His Millennial reign. He deals with Children of Israel of the flesh during the whole 7 year tribulation.Rev. 1:7 Look, he is coming on the clouds! Everyone will see him, including those who pierced him(Israel). All peoples on earth will mourn over him. So shall it be.[/b]Don't forget the 144,000

I don't remember who it was that said this, but I thought it was very enlightening and helped give me a better picture of what predestination is like."After giving a brief survey of the doctrines of grace, I asked for questions. One lady, in particular, was troubled. She said, "This is the most awful thing I've ever heard! You make it sound as if God is intentionally turning away men who would be saved, receiving only the elect!" I answered her in this vein: "You misunderstand the situation. You're visualizing that God is standing at the door of Heaven, and men are thronging to get in that door. And God says to various ones, 'Yes, you may come, but not you, or you, or you—yes, you may come, and you, and you, but not you, etc.' The situation is hardly this! Rather, God stands at the door of Heaven with His arms outstretched, inviting all to come. Yet all men without exception are running in the opposite direction towards Hell as hard as they can go. So God, in election, graciously reaches out and stops this one, and that one, and this one over here, and that one over there, and effectually draws them to Himself by changing their hearts, making them willing to come. Election keeps no one out of Heaven who would otherwise have been there, but it keeps a whole multitude of folks out of Hell who would otherwise have been there! Were it not for election, Heaven would be an empty place, and Hell would be bursting at the seams!" That does put a different complexion on the thing, doesn't it?"If you would like me to I could look up the person that said this. Just let me know.

Election and PredestinationI want to take a second to clear up some missinformation about Election and Predestination. Some people think that this doctrine means that we are robots who have no free will at all. This is just not true.Election is God's chosing of an individual for himself. Romans 9:10-12 speaks of God's purpose in election: not by works but by him who calls, before anyone does anything.Now, I know the first reaction to this would be: "But this passage is speaking of the Jews, these are the ones God has elected." I can see how you think this way because Romans 11:28 says, "As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Jews) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,"But, consider the following: Notice that God calls (elects) not only from the Jews but ALSO from the Gentiles. Romans 9:23-24, "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?. 2 Peter is addressed: "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:" Are Gentiles included in this statement? Obviously! But listen to what Peter then says in 1:10: "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall," Why would Peter be telling Gentiles to make their "calling and election sure" if only Jews are elected? Also along this same line of thinking: Romans 11:2 says that, "God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. " Does this means that God only foreknew the Jews? Of course not. Therefore since God foreknew all Christians he also elects all Christians regardless of Jew or Gentile. Galatians 3:26-29, "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."So how does foreknowledge fit into this? Remember in Romans 9:10-12: Election is God's calling regardless of anything WE have ever done. Foreknowledge is God choosing individuals for himself regardless of what that person has done. Foreknowledge and Election go hand in hand. God elects based on his foreknowledge. This foreknowledge is not based on our works but HIS grace: Ephesians 1:4 says, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Before the creation of the world he chose us, elected us and has called us--not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles. It is not correct to say God's foreknowledge is based our OUR decision in the future...this does not line up with scripture because the Bible says that God's foreknowledge is not based on anything we have done!Charles Haddon Spurgeon is quoted as saying, "I'm so glad that God chose me before the foundation of the world, because he never would have chosen me after I was born!" So how does election, calling, foreknowledge and predestination fit together?Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."This verse sums it all up. God foreknew individuals, God elects those individuals, God predestines those same individuals, God calls those same individuals, God justifies those same individuals and God glorifies those same individuals.So what does Predestination mean? Verse 29 says that those who who God foreknew he ALSO predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. The key word is "ALSO". God's plan for those he called is that they are conformed to the likeness of his Son. This is predestination.Does predestination mean that there is no such thing as free will? No. Free will exists and I exhibit Free Will ever day of my life. I am not a robot but I do live to please the Lord. I live to honor him and glorify him. The truth is man has free will but God in his divine mercy is working in Christians to conform them to the likeness of his son by using good and bad things in this world. This is why bad things happen to Christians...it is God molding us to be more like Christ. James 1:2-4 says, "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."

He predestins us according to His foreknowlage as said above.If this is so, than, you are saying that God see's good in man and elects him to salvation because of some good He saw in him. My Bible tells me that there is NO, (ABSOLUTELY NO) good thing in man. Our flesh does not seek after God but after the things of our flesh. We are slaves to our flesh and the only thing that can save us is God's grace, through the doctrine of election according to God's good will, not according to man's good actions. What do you think???

1611word, I don't know if you are addressing this to me or someone else but I will answer.He predestins us according to His foreknowlage as said above.If this is so, than, you are saying that God see's good in man and elects him to salvation because of some good He saw in him. If you are referring to my post, you have missread what I have said. However, if you are not referring to my post then maybe someone else can find something valuable in this:I quoted Romans 9:10-12, "Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." You see, election in this case of Issac and Esau was not based on Good or Bad things someone has done, not by works, it was based on the mercy and grace of God alone. This story of Isaac and Esau as I stated before provides an example of God's election of Jews and Gentiles. My Bible tells me that there is NO, (ABSOLUTELY NO) good thing in man. Our flesh does not seek after God but after the things of our flesh. We are slaves to our flesh and the only thing that can save us is God's grace, through the doctrine of election according to God's good will, not according to man's good actions. What do you think???I agree completely!

God has predestinated everyone to freewill and election. In that predestination to freewill most choose not to believe His election and freely refuse it.In Christ: Phillip

God has predestinated everyone to freewill and election. In that predestination to freewill most choose not to believe His election and freely refuse it.I took a moment to do a search for the word 'predestin' on biblegateway.com and I found the following:Romans 8:29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.Romans 8:30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.Ephesians 1:5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—Ephesians 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,The Bible speaks of predestination as follows:- Conformed to the likeness of Christ- Part of the work of God: Predestine, call, justify, glorify.- Part of our adoption as sons in accordance to the pleasure of God.- Being chosen by God according to God's plan to work out everything in conformity to his willGod Bless

brethrenbro Phillip wrote:God has predestinated everyone to freewill and election. In that predestination to freewill most choose not to believe His election and freely refuse it.our free will is not independant of the Lord's sovereign will. one can't do anything independantly of the Lord's approval or it being signed off by Him in heaven. consider this scripture as it pertains to our very salvation. we are so fallen that we ourselves can't come to God of our own volition, it requires that He, The Father draws us to Himself in His own garce and mercy. we don't even have power over out own salvation outside of the Lord's own grace and mercyfrom John 664 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.this highlights to me our most pittiful and dallen state, unable to save ourselves, unable to come to that place where we can be saved unless God the Father Himself moves to make it so.This highlights the Lord's grace and mercy on me and indeed all of us and His ultimate sovereignty in all things.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.So the Father does the drawing and who hear and learn from Him will come to Jesus.