Rapture???

I have been doing alot of research on this idea of a "rapture" and its nowhere to be found in scripture."Rapture" is a Latin word which is actually pronounced "rapturo".Why are christians changing the Greek and Hebrew into Latin are we catholic or christians??? To make a very long study into this short this is what Ive found:1."Rapture" is Latin for "caught up" in Thess. 4:172.The apostle Paul said that we are going up at the LAST TRUMP 1 Cor. 15:523.The last trump is in Rev.11:15 which means Jesus may have been speaking to the jews here because we appear in Rev.7.

This is a great subject to continue to study and pray about. My personal conviction is that we need to be living daily and hourly as if Jesus was coming back and anticipating that return. The parable of the virgins and matthew 24 and 25 help me alot for a simple view of this doctrine.

It seems to me that Rev.12:5 is where the 144,000 are CAUGHT UP-(not "RAPTURO").Revelation 7:9 has to be us.Rev.7:9-After this I beheld and lo a great number of ALL nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and before the Lamb,clothed with white robes,and palms in their hands. What Jesus described in Matthew 24:29-31 is exactly what happens in Rev.6:12-7:1.This happens right before we appear before the throne in 7:9 just as Jesus said.1.sun black as sackcloth2.moon as blood3.stars of heaven fall4.fig tree casts her untimely figs5.angels holding the four winds of the earth If this is the case we are not CAUGHT UP-(not Rapturo) till the fifth seal.Rev.6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.v11 And white robes were given to every one of them...

I believe the rapture is a great deception in the church to keep christians from getting too serious in their walk with the Lord.This may be the reason that there will be such a great falling away.Too many christians caught with no oil in their lamps.

Speaking of symbolism and the Jewish wedding,not that Im much into numbers but we actually appear before the throne(WEDDING ALTER???) at the sixth seal and God recieves the incense of our prayers at the GOLDEN ALTER after the SEVENTH seal is broken.This happens before the first trumpet begins to sound when God pours out His wrath on the world.We also appear in the SEVENTH chapter of Revelation.Also SEVEN chapters later in chapter 14 the 144,000 are caught up with us.

I really respect what others want to believe.Im just trying to understand WHAT they believe.In 1 Corinthians 15:52 from what I am understanding this is what the rapture believers are saying: 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump... THIS IS IT IN A NUTSHELL.ARE YOU READY?1.First there is a twinkle-(RAPTURO)2.Than there is the last trump-(SECOND TRUMP) Am I correct? Two trumpets in this one verse???So there's the twinkle than there's another trump??? Sounds nutty to me. I don't really have too much of a problem with the word rapturo other than the fact alot of people have made it into one seperate event apart from meeting the Lord in the clouds.Atleast it is being made to appear as two seperate events from my point of view because I only see one coming of Christ. Rev.6:14 And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...Obviously we will see Christ after the heavens are rolled away.This happens after the stars fall,the moon turns to blood and the sun becomes black as sacloth.Than theres the 4 angels in Rev 7:1 and there we are in Rev.7:9!Greg told me to look at Matthew 24 and thats what Ive found.Don't get me wrong Im really trying to understand this rapture business.

I don't have a problem with the word "rapturo",I believe we will be caught up but I only see one catching up and thats not until somewhere between chapter 6 and seven because we don't appear before the throne till Rev.7:9 and the stars of heaven have to fall, the sun has to become black, and the moon turns to blood.Isn't that what Jesus said in Matthew 24???Than shall you see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven Matt. 24:30.

Yes, I believe their is a catching up but not a rapture.The bible clearly says that we shall see the son of man coming in the clouds and He shall gather His elect from the four corners of the earth.Matt. 24:31 There's nowhere else in Revelation where you see the church going up. I think its pretty far fetched to call a "twinkle" a rapture-1 Cor 15:52.We shall go up LIKE a twinkle meaning an atom of time but they are refering to the word "twinkle" as THE RAPTURE and than the trumpet sound as another catching away all together. It may seem like apples and oranges to some people but I wouldn't want to be responsable for this doctrine.

Please correct me if you feel Im wrong but heres my take on it:IN ORDER OF EVENTS:Rev.6:9 Souls slain for word of God (us)Rev.6:10 saints call for God to avenge their bloodRev 6:11 white robes givenRev6:12 stars fall,moon turns to blood,sun blackened ect...Rev.6:14 heaven departs as a scrollRev 6:16 men of the earth tell the mountains and rocks to fall on themRev 7:1 angels hold 4 corners of 4 windsRev 7:3 angels seal servants of God on foreheadsRev 7:9 a great nation of every multitude stands before the throneRev 7:13 elders say whence came they?Rev 7:14 answer: These are they that came out of great tribulationAt the last of the seven trumpets were all changed in the twinkling of an eye!

The reason 1 Cor 15:52 was written is because the Corinthians were concerned with what would happen to their bodies after this life.The apostle Paul was just telling them that they would recieve new bodies and that we would be changed in the twinkling of an eye when the last trumpet sounds.Then he goes on to talk about this corruption putting on incoruption. I also wanted to point out that you cannot use just ONE scripture verse to base your belief or doctrine on.In this case their basing it on ONE WORD "TWINKLE".

Caught up?I love the WORDING of the word of God, it's like your a lawyer and your reading the fine print, and that is exactly how the LORD would have it. For example: When Jesus was being taken up into heaven and the desciple watched Him, notice it says a cloud (singular) RECIEVED Him out of their site. Now when it comes in connection with the rapture teaching it says, "Behold He cometh with clouds (Plural)Why I am saying all this, well I don't believe for a moment that these words were just scribbled down for nothing, I believe that every word and wording means something.Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.Let me high light the latter part of this verse, "In like manner" the same way He went, He will come again.But the way He went was by ONE cloud, the second way is by more than one cloud.Now, I am not going to answer this rapture question, but I want you to do your own digging. The answers are found in the old testement and one needs to do a study about clouds and what they mean. Remember the wording is important, nothing is to be taken lightly, even Jesus said that the jot and the tittle is important.Karl

1 Th 4:16-For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice of the arc angel and with the trump of God... read this verse along with Matt 24:31-and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His elect...than read Rev.7:1,2-4 angels holding the four winds...and He(another angel)cried with a loud voice...Theres 3 scriptures...This to me is all speaking of the second coming of Christ1 Thess 5:3..sudden destruction comes on them and they shall not escape...Look at Rev 6:16 And they said to the mountains and rocks Fall on us,and hide us from Him(GOD)who sits upon the throne...This is all the second coming...Please share any scripture you might have.I am open...I just don't see it.As far as I see we don't go up until the sixth or seventh seal and I only see one coming of Christ.

Some would teach that the bride of Christ is the Church and while the tribulation is going on, the Church is at the wedding in the third heaven. With this idea it would maybe be taught that Christ comes back with his raptured church and defeats the armies of the nations and sets up an earthly kingdom that is promised to the twelve tribes. At this time the land covenant the Lord made with Abraham would be set up. The land Mosses was promised as far as the eye can see.I am in the process of tuning in to all these interpretations, but, I always like to find other scriptures, which are not necessarily directly connected (on the surface of the page) to the topic in hand (in this case, 'rapture') also fitting in to the overall scenario.So, I've got a couple of things on my mind.1) What happened to the meaning of Hebrews 10:12 + 13: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (?)or Hebrews 11:39 + 40 2) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Without doubt, the idea of perfection/completion, is compatible with the marriage of the Lamb. Also, if the list in Hebrews 11 stretches backwards, how much more should it include those who are still to come - considering that when the words were written, we ourselves had not yet been born?3) In the same vein as that last point, the whole concept of 'remnant' seems to me to be being misunderstood. The word is used a lot of times in the Old Testament; just look at Genesis 45 for one of the earliest mentions and SEE how similar it is to the concept of (only) seven years of a great tribulation. If seven represents something of perfection, then maybe it is less to do with a specific time limited event and more to do with it accomplishing that which God sends it forth to accomplish......In other words, I would venture that there is a remnant being saved out of every natural generation (as opposed to the generation of Jesus Christ, which is the whole Church - across 'the ages').One of the things I find hardest to buy into in these different interpretations, is the fixing of a beginning and end of time periods. All through the Bible, there is the idea that the fulness of time for something to come to pass arrives - completely beyond the reach of man. God brings these seasons and ends them, and we have no idea - just as Jesus says - 'when' things are going to happen.... by which I mean that Jesus could have mentioned seven years (such a simple thing for Him to have commented) if it mattered for us to know .... but He doesn't; He simply says the tribulation is going to be shortened for the sake of the elect.In general, the modern, western church's concept of tribulation leaves a great deal to be desired, because there are people - Christians - who get a very raw deal from 'the world' - and for no other reason than that they make Christian choices. Or do we think that persecution needs to include unfair trials, prison, physical beatings, threats of physical death - any difficulty less than beheading doesn't count?If it true that more people died for Christ in the twentieth century than in any previous century, where does this leave any of the interpretations of scripture, as to 'when' we are now?Sorry if this sounds very disordered.... but, until something I hear strikes me as fitting the written word, the witness of the Holy Spirit and actual world history, I remain to be convinced (that I need to have an opinion - even - but, what I've just posted is close to my 'opinion').

I had to make a correction here: It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12. Secondly I asked myself ok is Jesus talking to us or the Jews in Matthew 24.The answer that I came up with is both the christians and the jews.Why? Because Jesus said one would be taken and the other left-Matthew 24:41.He simply told them to be ready,some jews are saved now and others are not.So now I ask myself ok than when do the 144,000 go up.The 144,000 go up in Rev. 14:as Paul said:Thess 4:17-Then we which are alive and remain,shall be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.I had to figure out if were caught up in heaven but the 144,000 are still here than how will we come together and I believe that this verse explains how we and the 144,000 will meet the Lord in the air together in Rev. 14.I appreciate any input. The twinkle and the last trump is only speaking of how quickly our bodies will be changed at the LAST TRUMP. Calling a twinkle a trumpet does not make sense.Satan is the author of confusion.

Rebecca5 wrote: It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:The rapture is unique, in that it is presented and explained to us by Paul in detail. Paul received direct, personal revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ. Paul mentions the rapture and what it entails in 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12.At the rapture Christ comes to get his saints. At the second coming, at the end of the Tribulation, Christ comes with His saints.I believe that Matthew 24 refers to Christ's second coming, when He comes as a thief to kill and destroy. When He comes the second time, He comes to separate the sheep from the goats. The Sheep (mostly Jews, but also others who have come to belief in the Messiah during the Tribulation) will go into the 1,000 year millennial reign with Christ, in their flesh and blood bodies. The Goats- all non-believers will be destroyed and sent to hell to wait for the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of time. With all of the above being said, we do get a small glimpse of what happens at the rapture in other books of the New Testament:John 14:1-3 " 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3.\tAnd if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."1 John 3:2 describes the what happens to all believers, before Christ can take them with Him to His New Heaven and New Earth:"2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.An excellent teaching book on this subject as well as other subjects is:What the Bible Teachesby R.A. TorreyGod bless,Stever

lastblast (Cindy) wrote:".........................................."Gary, I forgot to ask you about this: do you believe then that there are NO conversions after a rapture? Blessings in Him, CindyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:I think you meant "that there are NO conversions after THE (not a) rapture?Stever's continued response:We are all "firstfruits of the resurrection". Christ was the first "Firstfruit", we will be "Firstfruits of the resurrection" at the rapture. Those that come to belief in Messiah during the Tribulation and are beheaded will become "Firstfruits of the Resurrection" at the Second Coming, before Christ rules and reigns with them and us for the 1,000 years. Those that are saved in their bodies of flesh and blood during the Millenial reign will also become "firstfruits of the Resurrection" after that reign, and before the Great White Throne Judgment of the damned.All believers in Jesus Christ will take part in the "First Resurrection" and will receive bodies like Jesus Christ- new resurrected, glorified bodies that will never die.Christ resurrected from the dead on the 17th of Abib, the Feast of Firstfruits, that God told the Israelites to keep forever as a memorial.Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.1 Cor 15:20-2320But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us.... Romans 8:23-2523And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him!James 1:1818 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creaturesChrist resurrected from the dead on the 17th of Abib, the Feast of Firstfruits, that God told the Israelits to keep as a memorial forever-- see Leviticus:Lev 23:10-15 describes this forever memorial:10. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11. And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord. 13. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 15. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:God bless,Stever

7 candlesticks-7 churches7 stars-angels of 7 churcheschurches exhortedseven sealed bookopening of sealsRev 6:12/Matthew 24-earthquake,moon as blood,sun black,fig tree casts untimely figs ect...4 angels 4 corners of earth gather electwe appear before throne/144,000 sealedprayers of saints offeredseven trumpets begin2 witnesses2 witnesses beheaded and caught away to heavenseventh trumpet-I believe our bodies are changed in the twinkling of an eye sunclothed woman-IsrealIsreal flees to wildernessfalse prophet144,000 caught up with us-(alot of these events will all be taking place at same time between when were caught up and 144,000 are caught up)mark 666some saints left behind unpreparedvialsBabylon kills saintsBabylon fallsbeast and prophet cast in lake of firesatan cast in bottomless pit till 1,000 yearsJohn sees souls beheaded and they reign with Christ 1,000 yearsBattle of Gog and Magog-devoured by GodDevil cast in lake of fire w/ beast and false prophetwhite throne judgementany objections welcome...let me know what you think!

Rebecca5 wrote: I had to make a correction here: It seems to me when it comes to the rapture the safest bet is Matthew 24.I use Matthew 24 as my compass as to when the catching away will take place.The first thing I purposed to do was to line up Matthew 24 with Revelation.It makes since to me and we can find just about everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24 in Revelation 6:12.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:The rapture is unique, in that it is presented and explained to us by Paul in detail. Paul received direct, personal revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ. Paul mentions the rapture and what it entails in 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12.At the rapture Christ comes to get his saints. At the second coming, at the end of the Tribulation, Christ comes with His saints. What you referred to in Matthew refers to the Second Coming, when Christ comes with His saints. It seems like you never responded to this this post, Rebecca5.God bless,SteverP.S. Compare this description (BELOW) of the glorious second coming, when Christ COMES WITH HIS SAINTS to the rapture, when he COMES TO GET HIS SAINTS.:Zechariah 14:4-44 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

PaulBenson wrote:"I too agree that the teaching of a pre-trib rapture is not only totally false but very damaging to the focus and doctrinal well-being of the body of Christ."Stever's response:That argument only makes sense to the Christian who is trying to work his way to heaven by "works". The Spirit filled Christian is always doing the the Fathers business. What specifically is that business? Witnessing to the Lost. The Christian Beliver is instructed to look up, because his redemption draweth nigh- he is not instructed to be on the lookout for the Antichrist. The Christian believer is in a state of rest, God's rest.Why is that?? Because he/she is empowered by the Holy Ghost, exactly like the Apostles were at Pentecost and after that. Exactly like Paul was, exactly like the Church body at Corinth was, as well as at Thesalonica and the others.We (Christians) are not about works, or keeping track of our activities. Our works, our "righteousness" is nothing more than filthy rags to the Lord.The belief or non-belief in the rapture has absolutely nothing to do with "damaging to the focus and doctrinal well-being of the body of Christ."Acts 1:7-8 tells us:7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earthIt makes no difference to me whether there is a rapture, or there is not a rapture, however the Bible teaches that there is a rapture and there is a second coming and that both events are separate, distinct events.God bless,Stever

I don't have much to say here except two things:1) it is with great relief that I see pre-trib rapture challenged;2) there have been saints dying - falling asleep in Christ or going to be with Him due to being killed for their faith in Him, for almost 2000 years EDIT and those who had died before Christ, whose faith causes them to be included EDIT end; these saints will all be with Him when He returns to catch up those remaining believers who have not already died.This is a very simple concept. Too simple?

Stever, The verses that you gave concerning how you believe theirs a rapture I don't see as a "rapture", I see that as the second coming of Christ. I know alot of christians may think it doesn't really matter but why was the book of Danial and Revelation than written.I think it is a big deal because ALOT of christians really are counting on this rapture to get them out of here.I know of many christians who don't even want to talk about how we might not be getting out of here so soon. Tell me this,other than some prophecy teacher telling you their is going to be a rapture what do rapture believers base it on? According to my Dake's bible they base it on the word "TWINKLE" in 1 Cor.15:52.There is a "Twinkle"(called the rapture),than there is a last trump.A TWINKLE,THAN A TRUMP,SO TWO TRUMPS.Sorry I don't see it.

lastblast wrote:Jesus said "when you SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand"......Lk. 21:31xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever"s response:Like I have said previously on other posts- the Rapture is revealed to the Christian Church by Paul. Paul had personal, revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ.Paul was talking to the Christian Church. Christ was talking to the Jews, who did not accept Him then, and do not accept Him now. After their non-acceptance of Christ, God blinded the Jews eyes, and He still blinds them today. It is the exception, rather than the rule, that a Jew is led to belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.At the beginning of the Tribulation there will be no belivers, as they (the Church) will be raptured and at that time AntiChrist will come on the scene. When he creates a peace treaty with Israel and the Palestenians,and then allows the Jews to rebuild their Temple, they (the Jews) all beleive him to be the Messiah. However when, half way through the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) when their "Messiah" demands worship as God in the newly finished Temple--then their eyes are opened and they remember what Daniel the Prophet had to say about this (Daniel 9:27). Millions upon millions of Jews and others will come to belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour during the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation, when Jesus comes to the earth and puts His feet on the mount of Olives, they will know that He (Jesus Christ) is their Messiah,and millions upon millions more, of Jew and Gentile will come to belief as well.Zechariah 12 is a description of the 2nd coming, that is directed to the Jews that do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah:2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4. In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. 6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7. The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8. In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxZechariah 14, again penned for the non-believing Jews during the Tribulation tells us that Christ will come WITH HIS SAINTS, NOT FOR HIS SAINTS: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. 10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12. And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.I hope that this is helpful.God bless,SteverAND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THand THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED

After their non-acceptance of Christ, God blinded the Jews eyes, and He still blinds them today.Stever,When you say this, you make it sound new, yet it was first said by Moses. Did you realise that?Deuteronmony 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Matthew 13:15, Acts 28:27 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Jesus did not blind anyone, and I hate to hear it suggested that He did.Also, considering this is just one oft repeated verse (relevant though it is), it cannot be used to substantiate such a large part of a questionable doctrine, all on its own.Lastly, I feel many forget that Israel was locked in the outworking of God's overarching plan of salvation, just as were the Gentiles about to become.John 1147 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Note also Mark 10:32 - 34 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 'Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.And John 19:10 - 12 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. The reason I've brought all these verses together is to show how much conflicting 'information' there was on the ground. Jesus Himself had told the disciples He was going to be put to death by the Gentiles - and the Jews on the ground made sure they did not actually do the killing, and yet, without doubt they orchestrated the situation in which Jesus had to die. See Matthew 26:57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. [already!!!]Then afterwards, at Pentecost, Peter brings this up again confrontationally, when he is preaching for the first time - by now having been enlightened by Jesus having explained prophecy to them.There is so much in the New Testament about us having to accept the kind of treatment which was meted out to our Lord and Master, and so many people have died for Him.... Isn't that just the very point He was making when He said that no flesh would be saved if the days of the tribulation were not shortened for the sake of the elect - that is, the elect who are left alive during the tribulation? Isn't this a piece of simple English interpretation? And isn't it the mind of the flesh which seeks to be delivered from truly facing life-threatening persecution? (I sympathise. I prayed for many years that the Lord would spare me from ever having to suffer for Him in that way, because I knew I was weak. But, He has healed me, and I believe that with His grace, I might be able to endure for Him, now.)

Hello Dorcas:We seem to have issues over non-issues. I will do my best to claify my position:Stever Continues:God, in his foreknowledge knows the end from the beginning. When He prepared His plan of Salvation, before the world was even made, He knew exactly how it would all play out. It is playing out today, exactly according to his plan, based upon His foreknowledge, Omnipotence & Omnipresence. He gave the Jews the option of bringing in the Kingdom and accepting Christ as Messiah 2000 years ago. If they would have agreed to that option, the 1,000 year reign would have begun then. God knew they wouldn't, and it didn't happen then (the 1,000 year reign). We, the Gentiles now also have the opportunity to be saved, just as it is prophesized in the Old Testament many, many times:Isaiah 11:1010. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; TO IT SHALL THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious.Isaiah 60 1. Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3. And THE GENTILES SHALL COME TO THY LIGHT, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.Isaiah 62 1. For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2. AND THE GENTILES SHALL SEE THY RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. 3. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Malachi 1:" 10. Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.11.\tFor from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same MY NAME SHALL BE GREAT AMONG THE GENTILES; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts."We today are living in the time of the Gentile who have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is not finished with the Jews, but their eyes are blinded today, just like they were in Christs time, and even before. Their eyes are blinded because their hearts are not in the right place. They are all trying to earn their way to heaven, or else they are in disbelief. After their rejection of the Messiah their eyes are blinded for a period of time, until the tribulation. Today, some Jews have accepted Christ as their Messiah, but not many. During the Tribulation, multi-millions of Jews will accept Him.Romans Chapter 11 gives us some insight into this mystery:" 25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"When will the fullness of the Gentiles be come in? “The fulness of the Gentiles” began with the calling out of the church. “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name” (Acts 15:14). It will continue until the Rapture of the church. Blindness and hardening of Israel will continue as long as the church is present in the world.This is nothing new to God, He knows everything. He has revealed His Word to His Prophets. Paul was such a prophet, and the Rapture was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ, and Paul has revealed this new doctrine to us, Christ's Church.God bless,SteverP.S WHY HAVEN'T YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST ON "THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT FOR THE DAMNED". I ANSWERED YOUR OBJECTIONS (OR WERE THEY QUESTIONS?), BUT HAVE NOT HEARD YOUR RESPONSE??

I have read alot of really good scripture on these posts relating to the end times but I still don't see anything pertaining to an early rapture. I see a whole chapter though in Matthew 24 that lines up perfectly with Rev.6!You know the one with the sun,moon,stars and trees casting their untimely figs and than lo and behold a people of all nations!I wonder who that is? But wait thats not till chapter 6.It has to be somebody.Is it the Jews? No,than its us isn't it??? Even if I were to give the rapture believers the benefit of the doubt and say "ok well just say thats the Jews Jesus is talking to." Well we all know that can't be true because their not even sealed till the sixth or seventh chapter and we all know the 144,000 do not go to be with Christ till way down in Rev.14! Where in Rev. is this early rapture? Is it when Jesus tells John to come up hither???I don't believe it. Where is it? I don't see it. All I see rapture believers basing their belief on is the word "TWINKLE".Am I correct is that all it is? Just one word "twinkle???"I just want something solid,like maybe where in Rev. is the early rapture? Im still open and would love to go home early...

Jimp said:by jimp on 2005/12/27 13:42:52hi, dan.2,44 says that in the day of the ten nations[toes] shall God set up a kingdom that shall last forever and overcome all the kings because the stone[Jesus] fallsto the ground and crushes the toes. the next chapter is the fiery furnace where the heat is increased to seven 7 times it's heat and the hebrews are told to bow down to the beast or suffer great tibulation in the furnace. the said our God is able to deliver us from the furness[rapture] but if not we will not bow down and they were tossed into the fire. they were delivered through the fire ,not from the fire , and God was with them in the midst of the fire. when your head is in the air can your feet be on the ground? jimpxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: The Bible tells us that He is able to deliver us from the WRATH to come, not the furnace, not the rapture to come. The Wrath referred to here is the Tribulation, as well as Hell itself (I believe)1 Thes 1:10:" 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."Most of us Christians are foggy on the type of delivery that Christ promises the Christian believer. The Christian's delivery is more like that of Enoch, or that of Elijah, and NOT LIKE that of NOAH or SHADRACK, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO [found in Daniel Chapter 3]:Enoch walked with God, and then he was not- God took him away, to heaven. Although he did not receive a new resurrected body, his method of departure is similar to our own as described in the New Testament in regards to the rapture:1 Cor 15:" 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxElijah- similar to the RaptureAnother example of this same type of delivery is Elijah, who was walking along and God took him away to heaven in a whirlwind:"9. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a WHIRLWIND into heaven. 12. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 13. He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan; 14. And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.The unbelieving Jews and Gentiles that go through the Tribulation and come to belief during the Tribulation will receive some protection from God, but they will still have to go through it. Many, many of them will be beheaded and killed for their testimony, so all of them will not be protected during the Tribulation:Revelation 6:9-11 " 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10.\tAnd they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."Rev 13:6-9 tells the fate of some of the believers during this Tribulation period:6. And he (Antichrist) opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9. If any man have an ear, let him hear."The ones protected by God DURING THE TRIBULATION have similar experiences as that of Noah- BEING PROTECTED BY GOD WHILE GOING THROUGH THE WATERS . Also, similar to that of SHADRACK, MESHACH and ABEDNEGO, are the ones protected by God During the Tribulation- they will go through it, but still be protected and come out alive at the end of it, in their bodies of flesh and blood.Please compare that experience to the rapture- all those that believe will receive new resurrected bodies- the dead first, and those that are alive after them, and forever we will go to be with the Lord.God bless,Stever

Where in Revelation is this "rapture" supposed to take place???

Rebecca5 wrote: I have read alot of really good scripture on these posts relating to the end times but I still don't see anything pertaining to an early rapture.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: Revelation 4 is a specific reference to the rapture: 1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."Nowhere past Revelation 4 is the Church mentioned again, as we all "come up hither"- come up to Heaven, to be forever with the Lord.The rapture is unique, in that it is presented and explained to us by Paul in detail. Paul received direct, personal revelation knowledge from Jesus Christ. Paul mentions the rapture and what it entails in 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 15:50-58; Col 3:4; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Cor 1:7, 13:12.God bless,Stever

I really thank you for your response on this subject but are you serious??? No offense really but is that really where they think were going up???Thanks again!!!

Rebecca5 wrote: I really thank you for your response on this subject but are you serious??? No offense really but is that really where they think were going up???Thanks again!!!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:1 Thes 4:13-18, when describing the rapture, tells us that we will be forever with the Lord due to this event: 13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO WE SHALL EVER BE WITH THE LORD. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX1 Cor 15: 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP (TRUMP= TRUMPET): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Revelation 4:After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet (TRUMP= TRUMPET) talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.You will have to explain to me and everyone else on this thread why the Church is never mentioned in the Book of Revelation again. All that we read about is judgment.As a believer we are told that we will escape the Wrath to come. There are many, many, many more verses in the Bible that relate to the rapture.The good thing about being a Christian believer is that belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is of the only importance. Doctrinal issues are not a deal breaker. You or I can both be wrong on many points of doctrine, but as long as we are believers and followers of Jesus Christ the Messiah we will have eternal life with Him forever. He does not give us a written exam to take, before entry. We do not have to be proficient in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek. All we have to do is to believe.God bless,Stever

I feel like a passenger on the Titanic.Where are the boats??? There aren't any!!! So we are going through the tribulation! Well if we must go so be it Lord!!! So its settled than for me, there is no "rapture!"

lastblast wrote:

Stever's response:1 Thes 4:13-18, when describing the rapture, tells us that we will be forever with the Lord due to this event:I believe that passage has to do with the 2nd coming of Jesus. He will bring the "dead in Christ" with Him as He promises. All those who are alive and remaining (surviving all around in the greek (#4035, strong's)will then take part in what Paul spoke of in I Cor. 15:51-52---they will be "changed" in a twinkling of an eye.....that is how fast the transformation will occur----at the LAST trump (see Rev. 10:7, Rev. 11:15-18). THIS is when the mystery of God is finished as spoken of in Rev. 10:7.You will have to explain to me and everyone else on this thread why the Church is never mentioned in the Book of Revelation again. All that we read about is judgment.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: This has been a very long thread, and it is obvious that you have not read all of my posts.The Outline that I find easy to use when I study the Book of Revelation (created by Jon Courson) , and that supports my understanding of this entire Book of Revelation is as follows:The Book of Revelation is very simple- particularly because it is the only Book in the Bible with its own divine outline, found in Chapter 1, Verse 19, where Jesus told John to "write the things which thou has seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."If you follow this divine outline, the Book unfolds very easily (at least it does to me)...1.\tThe things which thous hast seen- Chapter 1The reality of the resurrected Jesus2.\tThe things which are- Chapters 2-3Jesus gives seven messages to seven churches, wherin lies the chronological flow of church history from the beginning of the early church to the present3.\tThe things which shall be hereafterChapters 4-5The Church is raptured and taken to heaven for a seven year "honeymoon" with the LordChapters 6-19The Tribulation occurs on earth as God pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting, sinful worldChapter 19At the end of chapter 19, the Lord comes back to Jerusalem with His church to establish the kingdom\tChapter 20\t\tThe Millennium- a thousand-year period of peace and prosperity- follows as the Lord rules and reigns from Jerusalem. At the end of the Millenium, Satan is loosed. A final rebellion ensues before Satan is put away permanently.Chapters 20-21A new heaven and a new earth are created wherin we will live happlily ever after with HIM.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxThat is the way that I understand it at the present time. In times past I was a mid-tribber, and at times past, past, past I did not believe in the rapture during the Tribulation, but thought that we would be raptured at the end of it (Post trib). It seems my experience is entirely opposite to teamtoucan, who took the reverse route, and now finds no belief in the rapture at all.God bless,Stever

Lastblast said:As a believer we are told that we will escape the Wrath to come. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Do you not apply to ALL who will be saved.....in other words, ALL that the blood of Christ bought from the foundations of the world? Or, do you believe that His blood only spares "some" of His children from His wrath? Blessings in Him, CindyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:It is my understanding that "the wrath to come" refers to the time of the Tribulation. It also refers to hell. We all know that we will go through tribulation on this earth- we all go through it every day. But the word here is WRATH- WHICH IS GOD'S DIVINE JUDGMENT AGAINST SIN--against a sinless world who rejects Him. I do not qualify to receive God's wrath during the Great Tribulation and neither do other believers in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I think that you are asking- who takes part in the rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture). The dead in Christ are first, and these dead are any and all of those that lived on this earth before Christ died on the cross and that believed God and in His promise of the seed of the woman found in Genesis 3:14-15 "14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."Some names would be: Abel, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Lott, Moses, Samsom, Jepthae,David, Jonathan, etc. etc. etc.---all of those that resided in Abrahams bosom that Christ took captive back to heaven with Him. Other's in the dead in Christ consist of all beleivers in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior that died after His death and resurecction on the cross. Those that are alive, and presently, in this day and age, beleive in Crist as their Lord and Savior, will also be part of this rapture event.Hope that clarifies my views on this important issue. God bless,Stever

lastblast wrote:

This is not our home. If it were, than God may seem cruel. But it is not... He is preparing a place for us in eternity. He is interested in the final result which is refining us as pure gold. Preparing a bride without spot or blemish for the King. If He allows us to go though a fiery trial then He will also give us the grace and wisdom to endure it. AMENxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:The Wrath to come is hardly a fiery trial. It is God's Wrath poured out on a Christ rejecting world. As Christian beliers we all go through Tribulation. But Wrath is entirely different. In the total biblical protrayal the wrath of God is not so much an emotion or an angry frame of mind as it is the settled opposition of his holiness to evil. Accordingly, the wrath of God is seen in its effects, in God's punishment of sin in this life and in the next. These inflictions include pestilence, death, exile, destruction of wicked cities and nations, hardening of hearts, and the cutting off of the people of God for idolatry or unbelief. They reach into the life to come in Jesus' descriptions of everlasting punishment, of a hell of fire, where the worm dieth not and the flame is not quenched. The day of wrath is God's final judgment against sin, his irrevocable condemnation of impenitent sinners. As a Christian, the Holy Spirit has permanent residence in my heart. Suffering God's wrath will be given to unbeleivers who suffer from a Christ rejecting spirit, and actually hate God.The Wrath of God is end times stuff, explained throughout Revelation that has nothing to do with the saved, only the Christ rejecting lost. When they are finally down on their backs, they will finally look up. During this time many of them will be saved. I/you/us do not require the New Birth, we already have it.God bless,Stever

lastblast wrote:

You have spoken about the early church talking about the last week of years. I haven't read much of the early writings and was wondering where you read thisxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response: Hosea has this to say- Christ is crucified and returns to His place for 2 days (2 thousand years), but returns to the earth for 1 day (1 thousand years):1. Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. 3. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earthOn e day is to the Lord as one thousand years a so one day. This could be a reference to the crucifixion. Christ leaves to His place for two years (two thousand years, but returns to revive His people and on the third day, spends 1,000 years with His saints upon the earth......Just a thought.God bless,Stever

Lastblast quoted:"The thing is that the pre-trib camp teaches the opposite of what the church has consistantly taught for the first 1800 years of it's "birth"----they teach that the Church WILL be spared from the persecution by anti-christ. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever said: The reason that the book of Revelation was allegorized and symbolized by the early Church was because of the fear of the Romans (the One World Government of the time) and tremendous persecution they were all already experiencing. The Book of Revelation reveals God's plan of placing ALL of the Governments of the World at His feet at a future time in history.Can you imagine how they would react? Even today, why do you think that Christianity is suppressed in all of the totalarian Governments aroung the world?If we look at 2 Tim 2:16 we can see that the believers are all upset because they believe they have missed the rapture,and are now going through tremendous tribulation and trouble. Paul assures them: "16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18. Who concerning the truth have erred, SAYING THAT THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY; AND HAS OVERTHROWN THE FAITH OF SOME. 19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.This surely states that the trials that they are going through have nothing to do with WRATH TO COME, and are only part of the tribulation common to us all.God bless,Stever

tinluke said:I don't believe in the rapture for one reason. It is contray to the word of God. In the every story of trial and tribulation throughout the Bible, God is always there to provide a way in the midst, but never to remove us from it.Hi tinluke,I've being thinking the term 'rapture' refers to the time when those not asleep in Christ, at His return, are 'caught up' into the air to be with Him.I also think that if we do not have a relationship with Christ now, which is rapturous already, we may be placing too much emphasis on the difference between being here on earth, and being with Him then.

Hi Stever,I will be responding to your posts. Sorry to keep you waiting. The fact is, I'm not really ready to lock horns on this. I do depend entirely on the Lord revealing to me the import of His word, as the foundation of what I believe. Whatever else I read has to be compared with my understanding of what He speaks to me.You know that I don't agree with your take on the white throne and you can be sure that I will post publicly, if I'm ever convinced otherwise.

I have found all of the verses I could find as to why people believe in a rapture.Ive been reading all morning and all of these verses seem to back up what I believe,that there isn't a rapture. Alot of these verses mention about the heavens being rolled away (Matt 24),the heavens shaken (Luke 21:25-28),the heavens passing away(2 Peter 3:10) and the heavens being on fire(2 Pet 3:10).Theres alot about His coming (2 Th 2:8.),Rev 1:7, Zech.12:10, Luke 21:25-28,2 Th 2:8. This all supports Matthew 24/Rev 6:12-17. Its all about a second coming not a rapture. I got all of these verses from Tim LaHaye.I even emailed Perry Stone.Im determined to find the truth out for myself and I will share anything else I find.These are all the verses that I found from Tim Lahaye about a rapture.You may be surprised to find this is all Ive found and that it doesn't really say much about a rapture but a second coming. Study for yourself is this about the second coming or a rapture? I even got on one websight where this fellow basically said if he can't prove it through scripture why theres a rapture than he'll go through the back door and try to prove (very weakly I might add) why we can't go through tribulation.Beware of those Jesus said that go through the back door because their theives and robbers.Rapture???2 Th 2:81 Pet 4:12-13Peter 3:1-14Jude 1:14-15Rev 1:7Rev 19:11-20:6Rev 22:7,v12,v20 Study to show thyself approved...2 Th.2:15Don't take my word for it.We've got enough of that going around!

Lastblast quoted:"The thing is that the pre-trib camp teaches the opposite of what the church has consistantly taught for the first 1800 years of it's "birth"----they teach that the Church WILL be spared from the persecution by anti-christ. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever said: The reason that the book of Revelation was allegorized and symbolized by the early Church was because of the fear of the Romans (the One World Government of the time) and tremendous persecution they were all already experiencing. The Book of Revelation reveals God's plan of placing ALL of the Governments of the World at His feet at a future time in history.Can you imagine how they would react? Even today, why do you think that Christianity is suppressed in all of the totalarian Governments aroung the world?I also think that the Catholic Church has had a lot to do with allegorizing and supressing the Book of Revelation. The Pope took over as World leader after Rome fell from within. All of the Catholics that I know today will have nothing to do with the study of this book (Revelation).God bless,Stever