SPEAKING IN TONGUES???

source: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=627An Amazing Fact:Legend has it that when the Greeks were unable to capture the city of Troy even after imposing a 10-year siege, they finally resorted to a clever stratagem. The Greek army pretended to sail away and left on the shore a huge, hollow wooden horse as an apparent victory gift. However, the gift was actually filled with several armed warriors! Sinon, a Greek spy inside Troy, persuaded the Trojans to bring the horse within the city walls, saying that to do so would mysteriously make Troy invincible. That night Sinon released the troops hiding in the gigantic horse. After killing the Trojan guards, they opened the gates to the waiting Greek soldiers, and Troy was captured and burned. A gift from an enemy can be very deadly. The underworld has successfully dispatched many human targets by beautifully wrapping a bomb as a gift with an ornate bow and paper that explodes when opened. Today the devil is using a counterfeit gift of the Spirit-a pagan form of the gift of tongues-to gain access to the church of God and destroy it from within. Shortly after becoming a Christian, I was hitchhiking from Palm Springs to Los Angeles to visit my mother. About halfway to my destination, I caught a ride with a kind, middle-aged Pentecostal lady who was very pleased to hear of my recent conversion. As we drove along, she asked, "Have you received the Holy Ghost yet?" I was a little surprised by her question, because no one had ever asked me that before. "Well, I think I have," I said slowly. "I've certainly felt God's Spirit in my life. The Lord is helping me make so many changes-you know, like giving up drugs, stealing, lying, cursing, and much more." "No, that's not what I mean," she said, looking a little frustrated. "Have you received the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Do you speak in tongues?" It struck me as odd that she seemed far more interested in whether or not I had experienced an ecstatic utterance than she was in the fact that I was having victory over the sins that had long held me captive! Even still, this kind lady was convinced that I was missing out on a primary element of the Christian experience. And not wanting to be deprived of something so important, I began a very deep search into the controversial subject of tongues. The first few churches I attended were all charismatic, which means they believed in speaking in ecstatic tongues-an experience often described as glossolalia. Most of my new friends at our Bible study group "spoke in tongues," so the information I am about to share is the result of firsthand experience as well as years of research. I need to address some unpopular facts in this study, and I must begin by saying that although I disagree with some of the teachings of my charismatic brothers and sisters, I firmly believe that God has thousands of His children in these fellowships. I also recognize that even among charismatics there are vast differences of interpretation regarding the gift of tongues, so forgive me if I generalize at times. The war I wage is not against people, but against error. The same truth that at times can hurt will also promise to set us free (John 8:32)! The Genuine Gift of TonguesLet's begin with a definition. The word "tongue" in the Bible simply means "a language." God gives all the gifts of the Spirit to fill a practical need. What was the need for tongues? Jesus told His followers, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19. This command posed a problem. How could the apostles go out preaching to all the world when they spoke only one or two languages? After all, Jesus' disciples were very bright, even though most of them were not formally educated. In order to fulfill the great commission, He promised to give them a unique gift from the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous, supernatural ability to speak foreign languages they had not formerly studied or known for the purpose of spreading the Gospel. "And these signs shall follow them that believe; ... they shall speak with new tongues." Mark 16:17. The fact that Jesus said these new tongues, or languages, would be a "sign" indicates that the ability to speak them would not come as the result of normal linguistic study. Rather, it would be an instantaneous gift to fluently preach in a previously unfamiliar language. There are only three actual examples of speaking in tongues recorded in the Bible (Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19). If we look at these three cases, we should find a clearer picture of this controversial gift. "When the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven [divided] tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4. Fire is a symbol for power. God sent this gift in the form of tongues of fire so they would know that He would empower their feeble tongues in the same way He strengthened Moses to go before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:10-12) and touched Isaiah's lips with a coal from the heavenly altar (Isaiah 6:6, 7). Why did the Lord wait until Pentecost to bestow this gift? Acts 2:5-11 sets the scene: "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? ... We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." The day of Pentecost was a Jewish holy day that fell 50 days after Passover. Devoted Israelites would come from all over the Roman empire to worship in Jerusalem. God chose this timely opportunity to bestow this gift of tongues upon the disciples so they could preach to the visiting Jews in their native languages. At least 15 different language groups were represented in the crowd that day (Acts 2:9-11)! As a result, thousands of these visitors were converted. Then, after Pentecost, they in turn carried their new faith home to their respective countries. From this example it should be very clear that the gift of tongues was given to communicate the gospel in different existing languages of the world. Some have mistakenly suggested that the miracle on Pentecost was a gift to hear and understand different languages. It was not a gift of hearing given to the listeners, but rather a gift of the Spirit given to enable the believers to speak (Acts 2:4). It is not called the gift of ears for the listeners, but the gift of tongues for the speakers. Furthermore, the sign was not ears of fire on the listeners, but tongues of fire on the ones preaching. It is also sometimes suggested that the gift of tongues is a "heavenly language" understood only by God or those with the gift of interpretation. The Bible is clear in Acts chapter 2 that both the disciples and those listening understood what was being preached-"the wonderful works of God." Verse 11. Let's look now at the second example when Peter preached to Cornelius and his household. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." Acts 10:44-46. Acts 10:1 tells us that Cornelius was Italian, while Peter was a Jew and spoke Aramaic. History also tells us that the servants in a Roman home could be from anywhere in the world. Because there were obvious language barriers at this meeting, Peter likely began to preach through an interpreter. But when the Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius and his household, the Jews with Peter could understand the Gentiles speaking in languages other than their native tongues. The record is that the Jews heard them "magnify God" in these languages. When later reporting this experience to the church leaders, Peter said, "The Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." Acts 11:15, emphasis added. Peter here plainly tells us that Cornelius and his family received the same gift of tongues in the same way the disciples did on the day of Pentecost. In other words, they spoke languages they had not formerly known in a way that could be understood. The third and final example of speaking in tongues is when Paul preached to 12 Ephesian disciples. Acts 19:6 records, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Paul was the most educated and widely traveled of the apostles, and he spoke many languages (1 Corinthians 14:18). When the Holy Spirit came upon these 12 Ephesian men, Paul recognized that they were prophesying, or preaching, in new languages. Most likely they spoke in languages common throughout the Roman Empire, since that would be practical for spreading the Gospel. Luke does not say that they received a form of tongues different from the first two examples, so we must assume that it was the same type of gift given at Pentecost. You'll find that the only times the gift of tongues was associated with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is when people from more than one language group were gathered together, thus creating communication barriers. Notice that in Acts chapter 4 you have a repeat of the experience described in chapter 2. The place was shaken and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but because there were no foreigners present, the gift of tongues was absent. Acts 4:31 says, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." The purpose for the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to mutter or babble unintelligible sounds, but rather to have power for preaching. This is why Jesus said, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8. The Message to CorinthOf the 14 New Testament books written by Paul, 1 Corinthians is the only one in which he deals with the subject of tongues. The Corinthian church obviously had a specific, temporary problem because Paul's second letter to Corinth never even mentions tongues. The ancient city of Corinth was famous for its two international seaports. Because the Corinthian church was a melting pot of many different nationalities, its services often became chaotic and confusing. Evidently some of the members would pray, testify, or preach in languages unknown to the others present. This is why Paul commanded that if they spoke in a tongue unknown to the majority, they should remain silent unless there was someone there to interpret or translate (1 Corinthians 14:28). In other words, it's not polite to speak in a language that your audience cannot understand. Listen to these plain statements from the apostle: "Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. ... Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. ... If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." 1 Corinthians 14:6-9, 19, 27, 28. It is truly amazing that some people take this passage and use it as an excuse to babble during services! The consistent message of Paul throughout Scripture is the very opposite. In 1 Timothy 6:20, he specifically mentions "avoiding profane and vain babblings." And in 2 Timothy 2:16, Paul repeats that counsel: "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness." In other words, the very purpose for the gift of speech is to communicate your thoughts. If those present do not understand your communication, then keep silent. Heavenly Prayer Language?Many of my charismatic friends would agree that the tongues spoken in the book of Acts were normal languages of the world. But they quickly add that there is a second gift-a heavenly prayer language. This gift, they say, is to express the Spirit's "groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26. The purpose, they say, is so the devil cannot understand our prayers. But nowhere are we taught to hide our prayers from the devil. He trembles when he hears Christians pray! This doctrine of a prayer language is based mainly upon 1 Corinthians 14:14, where Paul says, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." They interpret this to mean that when Paul prayed in the Spirit, he used a "heavenly tongue" and did not himself know what he was praying. This theory raises an important question. How would the supplicant ever know if his prayer was answered? So what is Paul really saying in 1 Corinthians 14:14? The problem in understanding this verse comes largely from the cumbersome translation. Please allow me to rephrase the verse in modern English: "If I pray in a language those around me do not know, I might be praying with the Spirit, but my thoughts would be unfruitful for those listening." Paul is adamant that if we pray out loud, we should either pray so others around us can understand or else keep quiet! Notice the next few verses: "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16. According to this text, who has the problem with understanding? It is the listener and not the speaker as is commonly taught. If you have ever prayed with someone who is offering a prayer in a language unknown to you, then you know what Paul meant when he said it is difficult for you to say "Amen" (meaning "so be it") at the end of the prayer. Without an interpreter, you have no idea to what you are assenting. You may have just asked a blessing on the devil as far as you can tell! It is obvious from the context of 1 Corinthians 14 that the purpose of speaking in tongues, or foreign languages, is to communicate the gospel and thereby edify the church. If the listeners do not understand the spoken language they cannot be edified. Consequently, if there is no interpreter, the speaker is simply speaking into the air and the only ones present who know what is being said are God and himself. This is the clear meaning of the often-misquoted verse 2. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Paul emphasizes again that the languages spoken need to be understood by the hearers or else the one who wants to share the mysteries of the gospel needs to sit quietly in meditation between himself and God. "So likewise ye; except ye utter by tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Verses 9, 28. Clearly, the entire purpose of tongues is to cross language barriers and communicate the gospel! Some have asked, "Didn't Paul say he spoke with the tongues of angels?" No. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels ..." 1 Corinthians 13:1, emphasis added. If you read this verse in its context, you will see that the word "though" means "even if." For example, Paul also said in verse 2, "Though I have all faith ..." He did not have all faith. And verse 3 adds, "Though I give my body to be burned ..." Paul was beheaded, not burned. So we can see that Paul here used the word "though" to mean "even if." Right PrioritiesI believe that all the gifts of the Spirit, including the true gift of tongues, are needed and available to the church today. But the Scriptures teach that some of the gifts are more important than others and that we should focus on the most important ones. "But covet earnestly the best gifts." 1 Corinthians 12:31. In fact, when the Bible lists spiritual gifts, tongues is usually found at the bottom of the list. "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 1 Corinthians 12:28. "Greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues." 1 Corinthians 14:5. Yet some charismatic preachers have turned the list upside down and made the gift of tongues the primary emphasis of their preaching. They would have us think that a Christian who does not speak in tongues is a second-class citizen. But Paul makes it clear that different gifts are given to different people, and no one is expected to have all the gifts. He asks in 1 Corinthians 12:29, 30: "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" The answer is obviously NO! The Bible says, "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. But these same preachers would have us believe that the fruit of the Spirit is tongues or that every person who is filled with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. Yet out of more than 50 examples in the Bible where God filled His people with the Spirit, only three times is tongues connected with the experience. Furtheremore, Jesus is our example. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, yet He never spoke in tongues. John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15), but there is no record that he spoke in tongues, either. Of the 27 books in the New Testament, only three make any reference at all to the gift of tongues. There are about 39 Bible authors. Of the 39, only three-Luke, Paul, and Mark-mention the subject of tongues. In other words, we should put the emphasis where God puts the emphasis. Creative CounterfeitThe genuine gift of tongues is a powerful tool for the proclamation of the gospel. But remember, the devil has a counterfeit for every truth of God. Glossolalia (glô?se-lâ'lê-a) is the word often used to describe the popular experience found in most charismatic churches. It is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary as: "fabricated and non-meaningful speech, especially such speech associated with a trance state or certain schizophrenic syndromes." Contrast that with the same dictionary's definition for a language: "The use by human beings of voice sounds, and often written symbols representing these sounds, in organized combinations and patterns in order to express and communicate thoughts and feelings." By any definition, the disjointed sounds of glossolalia are not a language. Believe me, I have seen this practice many times. In one charismatic church I used to attend, the pastor and his wife were a "tongues team." Every week in the middle of the pastor's sermon, his wife would jump to her feet, throw her arms in the air, and break out in ecstatic utterance. But she always said the same thing. "Handa kala shami, handa kala shami, handa kala shami... ." Over and over again. This instantly seemed suspicious to me because Jesus said, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do." Matthew 6:7. Each time this happened, the woman's husband would stop preaching and provide a dubious English translation for her so-called message. Usually it began with "Thus saith the Lord." Yet in spite of the fact that she always repeated the words "handa kala shami," the pastor's vague interpretation was different each time-and sometimes three times longer than the utterance. I used to wonder why, if this was a message from God, wouldn't He give it to us in English the first time. Baptized PaganismMy exposure to this charismatic "tongues team" reminded me of some things I had read in my history books growing up. This modern manifestation of tongues finds its roots not in the Bible, but rather in ancient pagan spiritualistic rituals. In the sixth century B.C., the Oracle of Delphi was housed in a temple built near the foot of Mt. Parnassus. Delphi was also sacred to Dionysus, the god associated with wine, fertility, and sensual dance, and to the nine Muses, patron goddesses of music. While exhilarating music was played, the chief priestess named Pythia would breathe intoxicating vapors, go into a frenzied trance, and then begin jabbering. The weird sounds the priestess muttered were then interpreted by a priest, who usually spoke in verse. Her utterances were regarded as the words of Apollo, but the messages were so ambiguous that they could seldom be proven wrong.1 While living with the Native Americans in New Mexico, I witnessed a similar ritual several times. The Indians would eat the hallucinogenic peyote, then sit in a circle and chant and pound drums for hours. Before long, several were spasmodically muttering as they experienced their tormenting visions. Today the charismatic churches are by far the most popular among the Native Americans because it is such an easy and natural transition from their old religions. Among many heathen African tribes, in order to invoke the blessing of their gods, the people would sacrifice a chicken or goat and then dance around a fire for long hours, chanting songs to the hypnotic rhythm of a pounding drum. Eventually some of the people would become possessed by their gods and begin speaking the eerie languages of the spirit world. Then the local witch doctor or priest would translate the messages. This ritual is still practiced today among the Voodoo Catholics in the West Indies. This pagan practice first found its way into the North American Christian churches in the early 1800s. Many of the African slaves who were brought to America and forced to accept Christianity were unable to read the Bible for themselves. Even though they came from a variety of tribes in Africa, one practice most tribes held in common was the "Spirit Dances" with the "spirit-possessed" person muttering. The slaves mistakenly associated this with the Christian "gift of tongues" and began to incorporate a modified version into their meetings. These frantic services, which were accompanied by heavy rhythmic music, began to spread at first only in the South and the participants were mocked by the mainline denominations as "Holy Rollers." Some even went so far as to grab venomous serpents during their possessed trances as a means of proving that they had the "spirit." (This was a misuse of Mark 16:18, which says, "They shall take up serpents," in reference to the time Paul was accidentally bitten by a serpent but was unharmed by the venom. See Acts 28:3-6.) For people to hunt down and pick up deadly snakes in order to prove that they have the Holy Spirit is, in reality, tempting God! The national expansion of the Pentecostal movement among Caucasians began in Los Angeles at the Apostolic Faith Gospel Mission on Azusa Street in 1906. The leader was a black former holiness preacher named William Seymour. From there, leaders continued to refine the doctrines and make them more attractive and palatable to other mainline Christians. "Then in about 1960 the charismatic movement began attracting followers within traditional denominations. From then it continued to have explosive growth until now there are several million charismatics in Protestant and Catholic churches throughout the world."2 It is important to note the prominent role music plays in all the pagan religions that practice glossolalia. This counterfeit gift of tongues first found its foothold in mainline churches through "baptized" pagan music and worship styles. The dominant, repetitious rhythms and syncopated beat disarm the higher reasoning powers and put the subconscious mind in a hypnotic state. In this vulnerable condition, the spirit of ecstatic utterance finds easy access. Now the devil is using this counterfeit gift of tongues, like a Trojan horse, to introduce pagan worship styles into Christian churches with a frightening degree of success. Satan wants to shift the attention of Christians from faith to feeling. Some of these charismatic churches go so far as to say that the Bible is the old letter, and that messages which come through tongues are fresh revelations of the Spirit and therefore more dependable. So now the stage is set for Satan's final performance! How God's Spirit Affects UsThe concept that a person who is "slain in the spirit" should fall to the ground and wallow and mutter is an insult to the Holy Ghost. The reason God gives us His Spirit is to restore in us His image-not to rob us of all dignity and self control! On mount Carmel, the pagan prophets of Baal jumped on the altar and shouted and moaned. They prophesied and cut themselves. By contrast, Elijah quietly knelt and prayed a simple prayer(1 Kings 18:17-46). "For God is not the author of confusion." 1 Corinthians 14:33. If God is not responsible, then who is? The idea that we lose control when we receive the Spirit is not consistent with Scripture. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." 1 Corinthians 14:32. Here's another case in point. After Jesus saved a berserk, demon-possessed man by the sea, the healed man was seen "sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind." Luke 8:35. The invitation of God is "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 1:18. He wants us to use our heads. Some of you reading this study are no doubt thinking: "How dare you say these things? I have spoken in tongues for years and know it is from God!" As Christians, we should never base our conclusions on how we feel. After all, the devil can certainly make us feel good. Rather, we must base our beliefs upon the sure Word of God. A friend of mine was an active charismatic who often spoke in tongues. When he studied these things, he began to question if this "gift" was from the right spirit. So he sincerely prayed and said, "Lord, if this is not Your will and if I am not experiencing the true gift of tongues, then please take it away!" He told me that from that day on, the experience of glossolalia never returned. A true Christian should be willing to surrender every cherished view and practice on the altar of God's will and forsake any practice that may be questionable-no matter how popular, accepted, or beloved among other Christians. There are some things that are highly esteemed among men but are an abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15). Babbling in BabylonWhy is understanding the subject of tongues so essential for us today? I believe the modern charismatic movement was foretold in Bible prophecy. Revelation chapter 18 verses 2 and 4 state: "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen. ... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." We must remember that one of the principal characteristics of ancient Babylon at the tower of Babel was a confusion of tongues (Genesis 11:7-9). Revelation is telling us that in the last days, God's people are to be called out of Babylon and its confusing counterfeit religious systems. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Revelation 16:13. The phrase "out of the mouth" represents speech, and please don't miss the fact that a frog's main weapon is its tongue. Unclean tongues? Perhaps God is trying to tell us something. Remember that the confusion of tongues at Babel was not a blessing of the Spirit, but rather a curse for their rebellion. In fact, we get our modern word "babbling" from the story of ancient Babel. At Pentecost, the curse of Babel was reversed so others might understand the gospel. Given to the ObedientI have met people who told me they've had the baptism of the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues; yet they held a cigarette in one hand and a can of beer in the other. Now let's get something straight. There are some basic requirements for receiving this most precious gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth." John 14:15, 16, 17. "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32, emphasis added. A few years ago several famous TV evangelists fell by the way. They all claimed to be filled with the Holy Spirit and have the gift of tongues. But they were living in gross immoral disobedience. They would speak in tongues on TV, then leave the studio to live a compromising life. Something just wasn't right. These men also caused me to wonder, "If this is the genuine gift of tongues, then why do these charismatic evangelists need an army of interpreters to translate for them when they preach overseas?" Why does God give the Spirit? "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me." Acts 1:8. God does not give us the Spirit to babble, but as power for witnessing! How can we receive the genuine gift of the Holy Spirit? Totally submit to God, be willing to forgive others, obey Him, and ask. Luke 11:13 says, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Oh Dear! :-( 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Eph 4:7-13He still has allot of work to do if we are still striving about this.

Dear Zeke, correction: {This should be addressed to goldeneye instead of Zeke}You state you believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit of being needed and available in the church today.{Quote}I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit, including the true gift of tongues, are needed and available to the church today.When you say all the gifts of the Spirit, I take it you mean those stated in 1 Cor 12. What I am wondering is, what gifts do you have and do you speak in tongues that haven't been learned? I ask this because I have never met anyone who speaks or writes the way you have that has actually been given the gifts of tongues. Most people who quote the things you have above do not believe that the gift of tongues is for today.In Christ,GaryE

Hey goldeneye,I heard different men speak in 'angelic'? tongues on two different locations, several weeks of time in between.It amazed me that they said the same kind of words.It did seemed as mumbojumbo to me.. :-( but I have no idea if its real or not.At a biblestudy I heard the speaker say that 'angelic tongues' are real - and the only gift - of the Spirit that was used for (building up) self.Speaking about gifts, I heard that someone had this gift from God and could speak in tongues.That really surprised me as I did not see that she was living that holy for God. (Not holy as in the sense of seperated from the world. -Hopefully I am very wrong about her.) Usually I don't think much about tongues and stuff like that. A while back I prayed to God that I would accept this gift of tongues if He thinks its important for me to serve Him. (and have not received it)Infact I don't know much about gifts of the Spirit at all. I do know that the more set apart/seperated from the world (holy) we are (but not out the world), the more He can use us.Anyhow, how would you explain this verse?(1Co 14:4) (MKJV)The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a church.How is one building up self if he/she is simply talking in another language?And another thought, couldn't most people in the New Testament time speak a world language? Thanks for reading, hope you don't mind me asking some questions.Your bro in the Lord,Jonathan

Many believe that if a person doesn't speak in tongues, they don't have the Spirit. Like you quoted in Mark 16:17, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Now continue on: "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."If you're going to pull a scripture to use as a qualification to prove that a person has received the Holy Spirit, you've got to follow the whole scriputre. Hand them a deadly snake. Poison them. Make them lay hands on a sick person and heal them. Make them cast the devils out of so many around us.One portion of this is taken as the "cover all" for a Spirit-filled person. I think it means that it's one thing that can happen to a person.Look at Paul. I never have read anything stating he spoke in tongues. Yet Paul talks extensively through the Spirit in him!I think it can happen. In church, we're told to have an interpreter. At my church, if there's not an interpreter for someone who stood up to speak, they would be told to sit down. I think a huge problem with this is that whenever something is called a qualification or a proof to having the Spirit, or salvation, or whatever, you end up with tons of people faking it to impress those around them.Grace and Peace...

Article: Speaking in TonguesThe issue of "speaking in tongues" plays an important role in our days, and we should consider some of the reasons why Bible-based Christians cannot join this movement. Several points, which we will discuss briefly, condemn the present-day tongues movement as not being of God. (1) 1 Corinthians is the only epistle that mentions speaking in tongues. This phenomenon has nothing to do with "praying in the Spirit" (Rom. 8; Eph. 5; Jude 20). Therefore, "speaking in tongues" is not essential, as some claim, for the life of faith of a Christian.(2) In the Scriptures, "tongues" always mean languages that really exist(ed). The Greek word "glossa" is also used in the phrase "tongues, as of fire" (Acts 2:2), to indicate the tongue as a member of the human body. It is further used in Revelation 5:9: "every tribe, tongue, and people ..." to represent the different populations on the earth, with their different languages.(3) Someone may speak in tongues (a foreign language), but this is never a proof that such a person is filled with, or even indwelt by, the Holy Spirit, let alone a spiritual believer (cf. 1 Cor. 1:5; 3:1).(4) The gift of tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the sense that He gives this gift through sovereign grace to some in the Assembly and He works in them (1 Cor. 12).(5) As a gift of the Spirit, tongues receives the last place in 1 Corinthians 12:28 (which presents the order of importance from apostles and downwards) because its possibility to edify is very limited (1 Cor. 14), except in gospel work on the mission front. Paul, in his travels, spoke in foreign languages certainly using his spiritual gifts but not in his home assembly.(6) Only the apostles and some of those converted by their ministry spoke in tongues. Generally speaking, the sign-gifts are limited to the apostles (apart from the Lord, of course). See Acts 2:43; 3:7-9; 5:12, 15; 9:40; 19:11.(7) The signs are given as proofs and characteristics of the work of an apostle (2 Cor. 12:12). Apostles must have been with the Lord during His earthly ministry or have seen the Lord in the glory, as happened to Paul (Acts 1:21-26; 9:3; 1 Cor. 9:1; 15:8).(8) The signs and miracles, including tongues, were given by God to confirm His Word (Mk. 16:17; Heb. 2:3-4; Jn. 2:23-25). The passage in Hebrews 2 refers to sign-gifts as something of the past, already past when this epistle was written (a few years before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD).(9) Speaking in tongues is, therefore, a sign for the unbelievers (1 Cor. 14: 19-25) so they could understand what was being said (v.23). [The gift of healing is similar. We find in the New Testament that it is used only for the benefit of unbelievers (especially among the Jews, who looked for signs) to reach their conscience, to confirm the Word that was preached, and to establish the new testimony. We do not read about any healing of believers; in fact, to the contrary (see 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Tim. 5:23; 2 Tim. 4:20; Gal. 4:13-14; 2 Cor. 12:7).](10) Speaking in tongues is only described in the book of Acts, in the three cases when new groups of believers were introduced into the Assembly (or Church) -- the Jews in ch. 2, the Gentiles in ch. 10, and the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:6. All spoke in different languages, and that, without having asked for it!(11) With the progression of the testimony in the book of Acts, the number of signs and miracles diminishes quickly.(12) Scripture presents two cases when signs and wonders take place. Most commonly, they are characteristic for the very beginning of a new dispensation. By way of exception, they also occur as a unique and temporary testimony to warn the professing people of God of soon-coming judgments. Moses, Joshua, our Lord, the twelve apostles, and the seventy that were sent out, were only sent to Israel and would fit in the first category (beginning of a new dispensation), whereas Elijah and Elisha fit in the second category (warning of judgment). The past testimony of signs and wonders, at the beginning of the Christian era, as well as a future testimony after the rapture of the Church, takes place within the borders of the Roman Empire.(13) The completion of the revelation of the Word of God put an end to the special revelations, prophecies, and sign-gifts, including speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 13:8-10). We cannot discuss in detail in this report 1 Corinthians 12-14 (see report titled Biblical Tongues), but note that we should distinguish the gifts of prophecy and revelation of the beginning (Eph. 2:20), when the Word of God was not yet completed, from the gift of prophecy for edification (building up) which still continues to the present time (1 Cor. 13:8), the Word being now complete. [It is remarkable that the apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, uses two different verbs in the Greek text to indicate a distinction between prophecy and knowledge on the one hand, which shall be done away with, and speaking in tongues on the other, of which he says "they shall cease" (1 Cor. 13:8). This last verb we could also translate with "pause," because they will function again at the introduction of the millennial reign.](14) Speaking in tongues is also presented in the New Testament as a fulfillment of Joel 2 and Isaiah 28 (1 Cor. 14:21) and, therefore, is intimately linked with Israel or the Jews. In Acts 2 and 19, and also in Corinth, the Jews are addressed by different tongues. Thus, they heard the Word of their God spoken to them with "pagan" tongues, something very exceptional. After the introduction of believing Gentiles into the Church, and after the formal closing of the Jewish dispensation (illustrated at the end of Acts 28 and implemented in the year 70 AD with the destruction of the temple), there are no more sign-gifts, at least not on behalf of God. [The enemy will fool people through an energy of error, allowed by God, in the coming days of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:8-12); however, a similar spirit of error is already at work, referred to as the mystery of iniquity.] God will give them again in the near future, connected with Israel: by the two witnesses in Jerusalem (Rev. 11) and, at the beginning of the coming millennial reign (Isa. 32; 53; Ps. 103), connected with a special healing of Israel.(15) With regard to speaking in tongues (as well as any speaking), it is stated in 1 Corinthians 14:34 that women should be silent in the local assembly. Therefore, besides the arguments already given to show that speaking in tongues as a gift of God was limited to the beginning of the Church, we now come to a command of God, given at the beginning, but still valid for today. Yet, when these "gifts" are displayed today, mostly women are involved. [This is not said to discriminate against women! It is a matter of obedience to the Lord Jesus and of submission to the authority of His Word.](16) In religious movements and cults, such as Christian Science, Theosophy, Adventism, and all kinds of Pentecostals and Charismatics, women play an important role, either in the start of such a movement or in its emotional practices. The Holy Spirit should control emotions, which is often not so. Genesis 2-3 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 indicate the place God has given to women; these passages also show how the enemy attacks God's order.(17) Wrong use of speaking in tongues, even in the days of the apostles, was caused either by ignorance (1 Cor. 14:38), by lack of experience (1 Cor. 12:1), because of spiritual imperfection or immaturity (1 Cor. 2:6-16), or even willful abuse (1 Cor. 4:19).(18) Unbelievers can do signs (Mt. 7:22; Rev. 13; 2 Th. 2:9; 2 Chr. 18:21; Acts 16:16). Furthermore, so-called speaking in tongues has been practiced in the past (even before the early days of the Church) by unbelievers and false teachers, as well as in our days: Plato, Virgil, before Christian Era; Irving, 19th century; Mormons, Buddhists, Spiritists, besides so-called Charismatics, in past and present days.(19) True believers can place themselves under wrong, diabolical influences, as occurred to Peter (Mt. 16:21-23). (20) The tongues at the beginning of the Christian era were real languages that could be verified. Today, those who pretend to speak in languages (tongues) do not know what language they speak nor what they say. Sometimes they try to justify themselves by saying that they are speaking in the tongues of angels (because nobody can check this). (21) Often there is no interpretation, in contrast to Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14. In reality, uncontrolled expressions that nobody can translate are pronounced; sometimes even curses are uttered, though in a language none of those present understands. If they give interpretations, they may contradict each other, or they are sometimes much longer than the tongue-spoken message, or they are very subjective, instead of glorifying Christ.(22) A key passage is 1 Corinthians 14:15. This verse shows the one praying, singing, or speaking in tongues (and in context this refers to men in the public meetings of the local assembly) must himself understand what he speaks. (23) To heed this principle would be very beneficial for many Christians today, who are involved in all kinds of manmade systems and may be placing themselves (often without realizing it) under demonic influences. Even so-called "singing in tongues" is practiced today. ConclusionSpeaking in tongues, when practiced according to the Bible, is a sign from God given to warn unbelievers of impending judgment. Because of this point, Scripture provides limiting conditions for its use within the Church, including the requirement that an interpretation should be given (also in the case of a visitor speaking a foreign language).Furthermore, tongues were a characteristic of apostolic ministry, to confirm the Word of God in a time when the Church was not yet established in all its diversity and when the revealed Word of God was not yet completed. The destruction of the temple closed the days of the Jewish era. With the establishment of the new Christian testimony, which included Jewish Christians, the exercise of the sign-gifts, including speaking in tongues, simply stopped. (On the foundation of the apostles and prophets of the New Testament, Ephesians 2:20; Paul's ministry completed the Word of God and closed the period in which God gave revelations.) Therefore, the modern-day tongues movement must be rejected as a demonic influence which serves several purposes: (1) To keep believers in ignorance and spiritual immaturity; (2) To suggest that right now, in a day of small things like in Zechariah 4:10, we can have the same "great things of God" (Acts 2:11) as in the early days of the Church; (3) To suggest that we are not under Gods dealings in discipline, because of decline and disobedience;(4) To sow discord among Christians, while creating outward unity; (5) To mobilize emotions, which are not controlled by the Spirit and Word of God.Several Errors Often Accompany Speaking in Tongues Today:(1) Often this practice goes together with introducing, defending, or propagating false teachings concerning the Person and Work of Christ; (2) Women play a dominating role, forsaking the role assigned to them in the Word of God; (3) There is a lack of true spiritual growth in the tongue-speaking movement; (4) There is ignorance with regard to doctrinal or moral evil; (5) There are many conflicts and dissensions because of a carnal condition. The Lord has given His people the ability to understand His thoughts (1 Cor. 2:15) provided there is a true spiritual attitude (1 Cor. 2:6). When a Christian is speaking in tongues without knowing what he is saying, then this conflicts with his Christian position. It is also crucial, in our days of ruin in the Christian profession, to make sure from which source, Christ or Satan, one receives instructions, influences, or directives. James 3 is quite clear about the possibility of two different sources or fountains (cf. 1 Cor. 12:1-3; 1 Jn. 4:1-3). Finally, the instructions in 2 Timothy 2 give much help for our days. Are we going to be real servants of the Lord? Are we willing to maintain His rights in the midst of the Christian profession where His authority has been rejected (not always doctrinally, but often practically) by human arrangements or religious systems in which Christ is not honored as Lord? If we reject His authority and rights, we deliver ourselves to God's governmental dealings, as a consequence of our disobedience (compare Rom. 1:24-32, Gal. 6:7). This will ultimately be the case for the so-called charismatic movement, when God will send an energy of error. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 gives the prophetic fulfillment after the rapture, but the principle applies today as well. May it please the Lord to keep us for His own glory, because of His Name!

groh_frog quoted:Therefore, the modern-day tongues movement must be rejected as a demonic influence which serves several purposes: (1) To keep believers in ignorance and spiritual immaturity; (2) To suggest that right now, in a day of small things like in Zechariah 4:10, we can have the same "great things of God" (Acts 2:11) as in the early days of the Church; (3) To suggest that we are not under Gods dealings in discipline, because of decline and disobedience; (4) To sow discord among Christians, while creating outward unity; (5) To mobilize emotions, which are not controlled by the Spirit and Word of God. Several Errors Often Accompany Speaking in Tongues Today: (1) Often this practice goes together with introducing, defending, or propagating false teachings concerning the Person and Work of Christ; (2) Women play a dominating role, forsaking the role assigned to them in the Word of God; (3) There is a lack of true spiritual growth in the tongue-speaking movement; (4) There is ignorance with regard to doctrinal or moral evil; (5) There are many conflicts and dissensions because of a carnal condition.Just a thought. Aren't these true also among those who reject the gift of tongues today? :-?

Hey groh_frog,groh_frog wrote:Article: Speaking in Tongues...According to this article 'sign-gifts' or wonders can not happen anymore? (till the millenial reign starts)

Hey, my bad. That article was given to me, and I didn't read all of it before posting it. Know that there's some things I don't agree with it. I won't remove it since it's there, but I should've read and checked all of it before posting.Grace and Peace...

Goldeneye,Are you by chance a 7th Day Adventist?Because you use all their arguments...exactly..

There are also many who deceive many, pretending to be followers, pretending to be godly people, too. I might have some questions if a person can be "spirit filled and godly" at church, yet otherwise don't seem to have a love that you might expect from someone who knew Christ.One of the problems with calling a specific spiritual gift proof of being spirit filled (and this happens with other things, also), is that you end up with people putting on a show for others. They may know nothing of the Spirit, yet they put on outward acts to make people think they do.Grace and Peace...

Here is an article by Smith Wigglesworth on the subject. Gift of Tongues

No sj I am not a 7th day adventist, I just posted this article I thought was interesting. It is from Amazing Facts, a 7th day publication.

Jonathan I would believe that the verse (1Co 14:4) (MKJV)The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a church. Indeed, this seems to me that one speaking in a tongue is doing so in an unknown tongue to any man. As well I don't think all in the NT world spoke a world language. This is a quote from the article, "Acts 10:1 tells us that Cornelius was Italian, while Peter was a Jew and spoke Aramaic. History also tells us that the servants in a Roman home could be from anywhere in the world. Because there were obvious language barriers at this meeting, Peter likely began to preach through an interpreter. But when the Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius and his household, the Jews with Peter could understand the Gentiles speaking in languages other than their native tongues. The record is that the Jews heard them "magnify God" in these languages. When later reporting this experience to the church leaders, Peter said, "The Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." Acts 11:15, emphasis added. I just posted this article just to get some discussion on the issue.

I claim to have had a baptism of the Holy Ghost, but did not speak in tongues. I find that people often speak of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and tongues as the same thing. This is more that a little frustrating. I have thus become a believer in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but undecided on all the doctines of tongues. Why should I claim to be an expert on tongues if I have never spoken in tongues, and feel lead of the Lord to "covet earnestly the best gifts."So I'm not for or against the tongues movement, but find it odd many of the stands of the two sides of the argument, especially since many men that were used of God claimed a baptism of the Holy Ghost, but never spoke in tongues (Chapman, Roberts, Moody, Torrey, Rice, etc). Even Wigglesworth had the baptism of the Holy Ghost prior to speaking in tongues. I can cite his testimony if anyone wishes, but would rather post someone who claimed the baptism of the Holy Ghost who never spoke in tongues. I don't line up with John Rice on everything he says, but I agreee with his spirit."I was in big services in Toronto, in the Avenue Road Church. There was a great crowd. Some seventeen hundred packed the building to the door, with chairs in the aisles. When I preached we had, I think, fifteen adults saved, and these went with many tears to a room for further instruction. As I stepped out of the pulpit for a moment while the building filled up again with a good many others for a second service, a man came up to me and said, "Dr. Rice, have you been baptized with the Holy Ghost?""Well," I said, "if you mean an enduement of power from on High, yes. In my poor, unworthy way, I thank God I have prayed and God has given some power, with amazing results, to win souls. I don't claim any credit. I have to say that is the power of God.""Oh," he said, "I didn't mean that. I mean did you talk in tongues?"I said, "If you didn't mean that, what did you say that for?""But," he said, "Brother Rice, if you talk ... if you just turn loose and you don't know what you are saying but you just feel good and as light as a feather ... it is so wonderful!"I said, "I talked in the English tongue tonight. It seemed like everybody could understand me.""Yes," he said, "I know, but you don't know how much joy you would get if you would just cut loose and talk in tongues."I said, "Well, if enough people come down the aisle and take Christ as Saviour and claim Christ and set out to live for Him, that will be joy enough for me." I said, "Now, let me ask you a question. Did you ever win a soul?""Well, I have witnessed to them.""I know, but did you ever win a soul?""Well, I have prayed for them, all right."I said, "Quit dodging. Did you ever take your Bible and show somebody he is a sinner, show him how to trust Jesus and get him to ask God for forgiveness and claim it and set out to live for Him? Have you ever won a soul?"He said, "I guess I never did."Now, isn't that strange that he would think he was a better Christian than I? He had never won one soul to Christ and God knows I have not won as many as I ought to and not nearly as many as some others, but I have seen thousands of people come to Christ. Oh, how many! I mean drunkards and infidels and heathen of various kinds. Isn't that a strange, arrogant spirit that is not of God when somebody thinks of himself more highly than he ought to think because he talks in tongues? That means those people think Gipsy Smith and R. A. Torrey and Charles G. Finney and Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. and Billy Sunday, the great soul winners, were not as good Christians as they are, who talk in tongues. That is a silly and, I think, a sinful attitude. That is one great thing wrong with the tongues movement."

goldeneye:From my own studies of ancient history, the Jews were subjects to Rome. Therefore, they had to know Greek (interestingly enough, Greek was the common language, not Latin). See, you first have the Greeks under Alexander the Great introducing Hellenist culture, including the Greek language. The Romans came in and put their own spin on the Hellenist culture (i.e. change the names of the gods from Greek to Latin); well, this includes the speck of sand called Judea.So, they had to know Greek/Latin (a poor form of it, mind you) to get anywhere in society. How could a person acknowledge the call of a centurion if you can't understand his language? For, the common soldiers of Rome wouldn't have the time to bother with acquiring new languages; it's easier to force your subject to pick up yours. So, the tongues spoken of in scripture doesn't have to be a rudimentary knowledge of a known language.Indeed, the NT is not a masterpeice of Greek sophistry, but the basic ability of nominal students in the greek language; if one wants to read beautiful Greek he'd pick up Plato or Socrates before Paul or Peter--yet, if he wants the depth that comes only from a pen inspired by the Divine One, he must read the writings of the Pharisee and the fisherman.I hope this is helpful.In Christ,Benjamin

Karl:I agree with you; this thread makes me want to go digging through all my old pentecostal magazines, since there are numerous accounts of where a man or woman was praying in an unknown language and a person next to them starts to weep since they understand it. God can use the oddest things by the unlikeliest people to perform great wonders. I'd like to see a oceanologist's thoughts if he was able to view the miracle of the water apprearing in the desert in the times of Elisha, which God called a "light thing" in His eyes. Or, a mortician's prognosis of the dead resurrecting during Christ's crucifixion?The speaking of tongues isn't the only gift above our understanding; the full immensity and intensity of Christ's sacrifice evades me.In Christ,Benjamin

When I received my baptism in the Holy Spirit, I didn't pray in tongues right away, but 2 nights later I was in prayer at my house and it felt as if my heart was seized by God and I began to speak in a different language, almost sounding like and arabic language at first and then even like a southeastern Asian language, like chinese or vietnamese or something. I believe that praying in tongues is edifying to the individual believer and that also it is praying the perfect will of God. The very fact that we do not know what we are saying helps us to learn to respond to the Holy Spirit without mixing in our own ideas and wishes, for we speak as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. I belive that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Every single account in the book of Acts that has to do with the baptism in the Spirit is accompanied with speaking in tongues and prophesying. The truth is that one of the gifts of Christ to every single believer is the baptism in the Spirit. Once we are born agian Christians, we are meant to be filled with the Holy Ghost and a baptism in which the Spirit enables to speak in a prayer language we've never heard ourselves speak. The Body of Christ is meant to fully operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and one of them is speaking in tongues, no matter much argument there is out there, it's right there in the middle of my Bible. **I remember when I first heard of the baptism in the Spirit and I had a lot of questions and doubts, but I also, in my heart said to the Lord, that "if there truly is a baptism in the Spirit as the book of Acts portrays it, I MUST HAVE IT!!" You know what I'm sayin? It is something that each person must seek for themself, tongues should never be forbade by the true believer, whether he or she speaks in tongues or not, because the Scriptures declare their authenticity. Look at Mark 16:17, "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My Name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;" I mean, that's pretty obvious that Jesus taught that tongues would be a part of the Christian's life. And by the way, Charles G. Finney was very powerfully baptized in the Holy Spirit and did speak in tongues, as for the others I do not know

Speaking in tongues are one of many gifts God can use to reach the lost. It is not a badge, a reward, or a prerequisite to be saved. One of the problems is some churches that came out of the Azusa Street Revival got the idea because tongues were manifested at Azusa Street all believers have to have that gift. NOT TRUE

Carbon,Glad you said some -- not all shared this belief.Those who believe this would include United Pentecostals and the Apostolic Movements.Those that do not -- Assemblies of God and Church of God (Clevland, Tenn) Probably many others on both sides but these are the big ones.This has been a historical problem that has indeed caused a lot of problems. Salvation really has nothing to do with tongues.Blessings.

Loveslave wrote:Is salvation not daily?You lost me here.Grace and Peace...

You lost me hereditto.Salvation is a covenant relationship but one can speak in tongues and be saved or not speak in tongues and be saved. There is no passage of Scripture that states that all Christians will speak in tongues nor is their a passage that states tongues is a necessary component of salvation.

I think some balance is definitely needed with the tongues issue. I came from a non-Pentecostal background and stumbled into the experience when I was a young Christian in college. When I first spoke in tongues (while praying for a friend of mine), I can honestly say it was the last thing on my mind. At that point I didn't want to speak in tongues.With regard to people who speak in tongues and live unsanctified lives, there may be three explanations. The most obvious one is that the person is faking it. The less obvious one, as a friend of mine pointed out, is that the gifts of God are without repentance. You could have a gift--tongues, musician, writer, organizational skills, whatever--and still have that gift after turning your back on God, or at least no longer living for Him. We have countless examples of such.The third is that sometimes people are at different places in their walk with the Lord. In the New Testament, we see some disciples who spoke in tongues post-Pentecost who were still very imperfect people. I've known believers and leaders who have numerous failures and shortcomings who still speak in tongues. This includes people who are undisciplined in their lives or focus too much on tongues to the exclusion of everything else. I've gone through these phases as have many of us. I don't write off people's speaking in tongues as fake because of those shortcomings. Of course, I'm not referring to people who are walking in willful, habitual sin. In that case the first two explanations would apply.I don't flaunt my ability to speak in tongues. I actually prefer to do it privately. But it has definitely brought a new dimension to my prayer and worship and I can't imagine not having that.I believe that there is enough Biblical evidence of the validity and importance of tongues. In the article that began this thread, it is lamentable that the well-meaning older lady was more concerned with the manifestation than anything else. I know many Christians who are more mature, devoted and effective than I am who do not speak in tongues and I thank God for them. I don't believe that tongues is the only manifestation for being filled with the Spirit. Changed hearts are more miraculous than anything else to me. But I also find it equally lamentable that so many would try to explain away tongues or downplay its importance. My $2.50. Blessings to all...marc

Way back in the mid 1960's my mother had remarried, we had just moved into a new house and this new family wanted to start out right by attending church. All of us were very UNCHURCHED. We got up put on our ill fitting suits, because this was a new experience for us. We of course ran late about 20 mins or so. Down the street we lived on was a classic Church with sweeping steps, a large brick building with a classic white steeple, four sets of double doors and a large parking lot that was full. We walked up the steps, the doors were closed but unlocked, my new dad opened the outer doors and we heard noises inside we thought was singing. When we opened the inner doors The fellowship (the place was packed) was in a rapturous Spiritual experience that EVERYONE but us was shouting in tongues. It was thunderous and extremely upsetting to my dear mother who was Presbyterian , and my New dad who was Catholic. All I remember is (I was 12) they grabbed us and ran out of that place like a bat out of hell with his wings on fire. I don't think my mother ever attended church after that and I missed the 1970's revival with Chuck Smith and crew because I thought Christians were crazy. The point I am making is this Paul warns us in Corinthians about the use of tongues and how it can effect the unchurched or baby Christians. Now I pray in tongues, I have not spoken in a unknown language, I really wish He would give me Spanish but He told me not to be lazy and just study it.I share this story so that some of you might learn that the devil can use tongues against some who do not understand and to build walls between brothers who otherwise could have fellowship.

Loveslave wrote:David said, "My foot slippeth but thy grace held me up", was he not saved from falling?I agree with you here. We are able to come to our Lord by his grace alone. Whether we fall, or stand in righteousness, it's by his grace alone that we can come before him.Grace and Peace...

There were some posts that grabbed my attention that I would like to hear some more Biblical backing or explanation for:LS: "There are Christians who fall every day and they get back up, are they not being saved?"I would say that we are not saved daily. We will be saved from wrath...Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."...and we are saved from wrath already by His grace through our faith.Rom 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"1 Cor 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."The reason I would dispute this is that Christ does not have to continually and daily save us from the penalty of sin. But rather He does continually and daily offer us the power over sin, by offering His Spirit. Victory over the power of sin is sanctification through the Holy Ghost. Victory over the penalty of sin is justification, and salvation, through his blood.The 7th chapter of Hebrew was written to explain this matter:Heb 7:25-27 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."----------JIL: "I belive that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Every single account in the book of Acts that has to do with the baptism in the Spirit is accompanied with speaking in tongues and prophesying."LGB: JIL, you don't seem arrogant from your posts or anything, I would just like to dispute you on this point. Barring the Biblical accounts outside of the book of Acts of someone being Holy Ghost filled (Jesus, John Baptist, etc) I would like to post some Acts accounts where they did not speak in tongues, though they were initially filled:Acts:4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."9:17,20: "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.""And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."----------JIL: "Charles G. Finney was very powerfully baptized in the Holy Spirit and did speak in tongues"John R Rice: from 'How Great Soul Winners Were Filled with The Spirit': p. 27, "Moody, Torrey, Chapman, Sunday, Finney, Spurgeon...1) All of them believed that the fullness of the Holy Spirit as experienced by Christians in the book of Acts is for us today!"p, 28: "4) How many of these soul winners, the greatest of these twenty centuries, believed that speaking in tongues was the necessary sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Not a one of them! None of them "spoke in tongues" and none of them preached that speaking in tongues was necessary or desirable as a sign of the fullness of the Holy Spirit!"

LS,Many of us have for quite some time, agreed to disagree about many things. That is the reason we post, to learn and sharpen swords. I apologize if I am coming off as negative.Remember that Whitefield and Wesley had there disputes, but thought very highly of one another.George Whitefield to John Wesley: "No, dear Sir, you mistake."Wesley spoke at Whitefield’s funeral. When he was asked, “Dear Mr. Wesley, do you expect to see dear Mr. Whitefield in heaven?” John replied, “No, madam.” But then he furthered, “Do not misunderstand me, madam; George Whitefield was so bright a star in the firmament of God's glory, and will stand so near the throne, that one like me, who am less than the least, will never catch a glimpse of him.”I expect to have my thoughts corrected if I am in error. That is how I learn. Perhaps I should have welcomed you first. I am not trying to drive you away, but would rather you be strengthened in the Word and in doctrine by defending your position. Please don't leave because of my comments.I have been told to lighten up more than once. I'm glad you're here. I hope we can discuss things in hopes that the truth will be reached in love.2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"MODERATOR: Let me know if I have been out of line.

Wow such a long thread... I have only read the first page so far.Most of the time, I see tongues as a non-issue.I have never spoken in tongues, and have never heard anyone speak in tongues.My friends grandfather who was a missionary said he has heard people 'talking in tongues' which apparently was actually blasphemy or jibberish in their native tongue. (Or something similiar to that...)I personally believe that it has been taken out of its original context by many. I believe the gift of tongues isn't valid if people can't 100% accurately interpret what the person speaking tongues is saying.I can see people dividing up into Pro-Tongues and Non-Tongues sides, but I don't think that is necessary.You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be a Christian, anyone that says other wise is wrong.You receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian. You are however given spiritual gifts... I am still discovering mine...I do not know whether tongues is genuinely active in the church today - it might very well be...Just my 2centsPeace be with youGod BlessMichael

Wildhorse writes "You receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian."Paul writes “...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Rom. 8:9, NKJV)Is the second statement the same as the first?

philologos:Wildhorse writes "You receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian."Paul writes “...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Rom. 8:9, NKJV)Is the second statement the same as the first?Was thinking more along the lines of:1 Corinthians 12:13"For we were all baptized by£ one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink"Ephesians 13:14"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

Loveslave wrote :-But what of this teaching that I have heard especially amongst charismatics and word of faith that one receives the holy Spirit when they accept the LORD into their hearts?I've heard it said by some calling it: "The Spirit within and the Spirit without doctrine."Someone told me once that because I received Christ that I had the holy Ghost. I was completely unsettled with that information. I felt within me a burning desire to seek the baptism in the holy Spirit, if I already had it why was God stirring my heart for it?HiI am not familiar with the "The Spirit within and the Spirit without doctrine." as a specific doctrine, but I think John 14:16-17 is fairly clear :-"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Helper that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive but you know him, for He dwells with you, and will be in you.Baptism literally means immersion (others correct me if I'm wrong). I think being baptised in the Holy Spirit means to be totally immersed in Him, not having "some" of Him in us, as was the state of the disciples before Pentecost.For the record, I am not baptised in the Holy Spirit myself, nor do I speak in tongues, however I believe it is important since it allows us to operate more fully as Christians. The apostles healed the sick and drove out unclean spirits before the Holy Ghost came down, so they already presented some of the signs that would follow those that believe. Even so Jesus told these same disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had been "endued with with power from on high." (Luke 24:49) Interesting Jesus did NOT say "In the meantime use the little strength you have to reach those who may be lost before you receive the full baptism." I think this highlights the importance of being baptised in the Holy Ghost.I lot of people react to the confusion around the topic of tongues and baptism in the Holy Ghost by putting it on the shelf. I think this is exactly what satan wants to achieve through this confusion, so we are less empowered to do him damage. The Bible however encourages us to seek it :-Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (1 Corinthians 14:1)and again :-"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" (Luke 11:13)PassingThru

Hey Loveslave,What if someone prayed for you and layed hands on you and nothing changed?To my current understanding (which might be incorrect) the baptism in the Spirit means that a person is under full control of the Holy Spirit. Isn't that what God wants?I do believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in people when they repent and start living for God [edit2]being born again[/edit2]. So also in my life. My life really changed (now I hope and see to it that it keeps changing) after I really got converted. (had been a name-christian for a year before and prior to that been not even that)Have patience with me that I know little about the baptism in the Spirit, someone layed on hands on me and I did not receive it. After being prayed for, the speaker asked all to talk in tongues if you could. I could not.On the other hand, baptism in the Spirit almost seems to me like a shortcut to full obedience to God. Is it possible that I did not receive the baptism of the HS because I might have had the wrong reasons for wanting it?Too be short, does receiving the baptism of the Spirit has anything to do with how you live and what you do? If the baptism of the HS gives 'boldness' to speak the gospel freely isn't that just what needs to happen if God wants to use me fully?God is working in my life, I don't doubt my salvation or having the HS in me, but I do have questions about being filled with the Holy Spirit.Perhaps you or someone else can share some experience, fill in some blanks and lead me to scripture. :-) [edit]I did notice that I tied the baptism of the Spirit to speaking in tongues in my post. According to what I know; 'I don't know if its so'. But to be able to ask some questions first and the Lord willing later, I put it up like this first.

Dear PassingThru,Your post was very good. Some people question that there is a need to speak in tongues as far as being baptized in the Holy Spirit but Acts 2:4 it says they all spoke in tongues. This would include the woman that were mentioned previously in Acts as being in the upper room, and what Peter was saying when he quoted Joel 2:28 in his sermon. Strongs Hebrew and Greek dictionary says all means complete or everyone.Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.Peter then said in his sermon that this promise was to those afar off even as many as the Lord calls. The Lord still calls today.Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.PassingThru, the verse in Luke is the verse that I would have quoted in writing a similar post. They were to wait for the power. They were to wait for the Comforter to come. They already knew Jesus had resurrected. They were already sealed by the Holy Spirit. They were already believers, but they weren't yet filled.Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high..................................................Dear Johnathan,{Quote}To my current understanding (which might be incorrect) the baptism in the Spirit means that a person is under full control of the Holy Spirit. Isn't that what God wants?God wants the Holy Spirit to be in control of us not us in control of the Holy Spirit. God isn't our tool, we are God's tool. We are vessels for his use. In order to be used by God we need to be submitted to him. It is not by the letter but by the Spirit. It is his will that we follow and not are own. At least this is the way it should be.My council is to ask the Lord if these things aren't so.Johnathan, Luke 11:5-13 speaks of asking for more of the Holy Spirit and how much more of the Holy Spirit is given to those that ask. We all need to continue to do this. We need to continue to ask for more of the Holy Spirit as we live our lives out.Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?In Christ,GaryE

Warrior,Check out these articles on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They present different views, but all deal with historical facts:1) 'Why God Used DL Moody' by RA Torrey:http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Why.God.Used.D.L.Moody.html2) 'The Bible Evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit' by Smith Wigglesworth:http://www.theoldtimegospel.org/youth/y_evidence.html3) 'How Great Soul Winners Were FilledWith the Holy Spirit' by John R. Rice:http://bennieblount.com/Online/Rice/Filled.htm4) 'THE REVIVAL WE NEED' by OSWALD J. SMITH, Chapter IV:http://www.gospeltruth.net/OJSmith/revival_we_needch4.htmHope these help.

I once read a reprinted booklet by D L Moody that he discussed Singing in Tongues. He was not foolish enough to ridicule this like Mr. Rice.In Christ,GaryE

GaryE, Loveslave, letsgetbusy thanks for the links/thoughts and info! :-) [edit]LS, I don't mind lengthy posts unless it will take me 3 houres to read all or so. :-P

{Quote} myselfI once read a reprinted booklet by D L Moody that he discussed Singing in Tongues. He was not foolish enough to ridicule this like Mr. Rice..................................................At least it was foolish if his intent was to discredit the gift of tongues for the day he lived in. How many of these men quoted can be documented to have said the gift of tongues wasn't valid in their day? Is it right to put words in dead men's mouths?One can possibly say that tongues are not the only evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but one can also take the opposite position as some of the previous posts plainly state by biblical posts, especially when it says that all those in the upper room spoke with tongues.In Christ,GaryE

Gar,I respect your opinion, and I don't line up with Brother Rice on all of his views on tongues, necessarily. But the paper is an example of men who obviously were filled with the Spirit, many who claimed a baptism of the Holy Ghost, who did not themselves speak in tongues (Duncan Campbell is another).I understand Rice's language is not pro-tongues, but his view was also a response to the individuals who speak of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and tongues as synonomous. I know many hold this veiw, but my point was to show there were many giants of the faith who did not.So my stance is that I cannot be authoritative on the subject of tongues, but I don't knock people who do. Sorry if the article offended you. I think you will notice that I put a fair balance of articles on the subject (Wigglesworth, etc).I would like to document where Moody wrote on singing in tongues. Please post the name of the booklet.