A little while ago, my wife and I visited a "Fundamental Independent Baptist" church that held a few viewpoints differently that we do. Among them was the idea that any music other than hymns is evil- this was to include today's contemporary praise music.Now, this is something that I just don't understand. Is there anyone who can explain this thought? Is there basis for it, or is it simply baseless?Grace and Peace...
There have been discussions about this, here, previously. Have you searched, yet?I think many of us who were brought up with hymns, were tuned into a depth of spiritual usefulness from the words and tunes of the best hymns, which we find lacking, quite often, from some contemporary praise music. (The words are often about what I'm going to do for God; often there is a very repetitive (boring) tune, which depends heavily on the support of musical instruments; the content is fequently limited to one central concept, lightly embellished, which, once embraced, [the song] has more or less fulfilled its usefulness.)As you probably see, I post a lot of hymns in the praise thread. Partly, that's because I've had trouble finding the other kind of music in the public domain and posted on the web, but, also, the 'beauty' of hymns, apart from the words, are that they travel well - which you might appreciate. They are sung to a steady rhythm, with at most, only one dropped beat at the beginning of a line, in the occasional tune. There is, therefore, no missing instrumental section. The whole thing is carried on a much stronger tune, usually, which can be sung without accompaniment.Often these tunes were written for 4 part singing, which means if anyone is even slightly musical, as long as the melody (the main tune) is correctly pitched, everyone else who is a bass, tenor or alto, can sing a part - so it is real original praise music to the Lord - and not a guitar, keyboard, drum kit or amplifier in sight.It is my personal view that the church needs to know its hymns first, for times of difficulty and persecution, and times of being out in the field away from local church comforts. If not, as with those who don't take in scripture properly when they read it, the moment there is a physical dearth of spiritual food, one is more vulnerable to attack (and failure).Fully I accept that there are some excellent 'non-hymns' but these are the ones which have the qualities of a hymn which I've mentioned - meaningful content, continuous singing to a regular rhythm with spaces for dropped beats or instrumental sections kept extremely short, and, most importantly, a proper spiritual tune which goes to more than 3 chords on a guitar. The tests of a good tune are that it can be sung in parts, or, the melody is very strong (despite, perhaps, not lending itself to harmonies) and pitched right in the middle of everyone's range. These two types of tune will be amenable to come back on the wings of the Spirit in times of need, more than all the others..... just my two pen'rth....
I've been to a number of different types of churches, particularly when I was younger. Some of them wouldn't allow electric guitars and drums for example. I didn't realize until now that really what they wanted was a focus on worship, not some type of emotional experience.Most of the hymns were very solid, regardless of which particular denomination you were a part of. Frankly much of the "contemporary" Christian music lacks depth, with some notable exceptions such as Keith Green.In our fellowship most of the singing is without music, simply to not turn worship into another form of entertainment. There's no scriptural admonition against this but our focus is on Jesus not on entertainment.
Paul Ravenhill said "Hymns are like the old battle ax, one blow does it all. Chorus is like a dagger in the right place it will do the job"Martin Luther - After Luther left some of the churches he was told they were starting to get cold again, Luther reply was to tell every church to sing hymns and so the churches did so and the result was revival."Like Ravenhill said hymns and chorus have their place in worship.
I'm glad that you said "most" hymns. I don't want to pick a fight, but rather I want to talk about both hymns and contemporary music.I myslef am a fan of Relient K. They sing about a lot of stuff, not just praise/worship music, which in itself is a turnoff for some people. I personally don't think it should be- we talk about other things, why not sing about them?Anyway, they have a song called "For the moments I feel faint". It's guitars and voices. "Never underestimate my Jesus," is the thread of the chorus. It's a praise song, if I've ever heard one. And if you have a guitar and a voice, you can sing it.Now, you're right in saying that some contemporary music is lacking in depth, but so are some hymns. Actually, this same church that I mentioned earlier- when we attended, we sang a song that says something to the effect of "I'm gonna have a mansion in heaven, so I want to serve you for it." Now, that sounds pretty well like humanism, if you ask me.My point isn't to say that one is better than another. Our church doesn't sing anything but hymns, aside from the occasional performance for the congregation. But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary?Grace and Peace...
But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary? I wouldn't and haven't blacklisted contemporary Christian music as a genre. We sing some contemporary songs but I prefer the hymns, although some of the contemporary ones are what I call car-tunes, which I often sing on the commute to work. We simply need a discerning spirit on this as well as all things.Keith Green was an aberration because he never charged for his concerts and he trusted Jesus for the finances. Unfortunately now, it's limited to those with means to go. Personally I find "Christian marketing" offensive but unfortunately it's not limited to contemporary Christian music.
It is said that man makes God in his own image. That applies to God's "taste" of music. What people like is what they believe God likes. And so they believe that THEIR music is an acceptable offering to God. There was a time when God told his people that he didn't like their music: " I despise your religious feasts; Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps." Amos 5:23It would do us well to think about why God would say that. It seems like God's criteria is not the same as man's. Diane
I’ve been involved in music for years. Not all of it has been in the religious services. It seems very odd that Christians would talk about two kinds of music: hymns and choruses. That, to me is like saying that there are only two kinds of food: green apples and yellow apples. It is a rather narrow perception of a far bigger scope. So, it seems odd that people squabble over green and yellow apples when there is so much variety in food. Mind, you, you can have rotten green apples and rotten yellow apples, or flawed apples. Because music is a product of human creativity, and limited by their inadequacies, it will always have some shortcomings. People usually compare the music they are critiquing with their own frame of reference. The smaller it is, the less they will be able to judge wisely. Has anybody listened to Handel’s Halleluiah Chorus lately? Now there is one incredible CHORUS! As you see, somehow over time, the term “chorus” has been given a new definition (rather hazy, at best) by the church. That makes the disagreements even more crazy. Another comment: The word, “contemporary’ is a rather relative term – it means nothing, really. What was “contemporary’ yesterday, is “traditional” today (another rather subjective term). And what is contemporary among classical musicians is entirely different than contemporary music in the church. So you see, when people know little about music they make such ludicrous comments as these dear fundies (May God bless them)..... a non-hymn........... mmmmm that could be just about anything. Diane
{Quote}But my question is why contemporary music would be blacklisted as wrong by genre alone. We need to be discerning of all music- hymns and contemporary alike. But aside from tradition, why would we say "no" alltogether to contemporary?But isn't the same thing true the other way around? Why are there so many churches that only have contemporary muscic in them?In Christ,GaryE
Too true, Gary. And I wonder if it's not a matter of cultural/age group opinion being pushed as being the only "true" praise.Grace and peace...
Often times, the younger generation (like me- 20), if not raised in a conservative church (like me), wasn't raised with hymns, and doesn't "click" with them. I don't know how to explain it. It took me a long time before I could appreciate many hymns at all. This might be why many of the younger generation of churches preffers more modern style of praise.On the same hand, I don't think many of the elder generation really "clicks" with the modern style of praise, and so preffer hymns.So, should it be a question of personal preference alone as to style? Every song must be tested- like said, there's rotten of both color. Also, what do you mean about there being more than just two kinds of apples Diane?Grace and peace...
Tozer said If you look a hymns in the past 100 years and under -you see a trend of the hymns having "I" in them. More self focused and not God. I never will squabble about what others sing and will not now. I like what Paul Ravenhills WIFE said "Whatever CHANNEL gets you into the presence of God use that channel" That means chorus or hymns or singing the Psalms.Find YOUR channel and stay with it and forget the squabble. :-)
Whatever CHANNEL gets you into the presence of God use that channel" That means chorus or hymns or singing the Psalms. I have a great deal of trouble with this statement. I do not think that music is a means to reach God, but an expression of what is going on inside someone. This statement borders towards idolatry, I'm afraid. ...what do you mean about there being more than just two kinds of apples I mean to say, that we speak like hymns and choruses are the only two kinds of music that exist. Some others also believe that there are only two kinds of music: country and western. (just being facetious)I believe that to the extent that Christians are able, it is good to broaden their scope. That will help them when they "critique" church music. By the way, Groh_frog I like the way you express the struggle relating to music that is not in one's sphere of experience. That is a humble admission - better than saying "the OTHER kind is all from the devil, or God doesn't use it anymore." Diane
Here's a great websight with alot of old hymns with music: www.cyberhymnal.org It even has the old hymn from Azusa Street, "The Comforter Has Come." I also like the hymn,"Coming Up The Road."
Hey Roadsign, I don't want to get into this but I got to ask whats YOUR "means" of touching or reaching God?
I have a great deal of trouble with this statement. I do not think that music is a means to reach God, but an expression of what is going on inside someone. This statement borders towards idolatry, I'm afraid.I understand your concern for the statement and although I can't know the context of the statement that this quote from Mrs. Ravenhill was taken from, I think I can hazard a guess. Sometimes for me, when in the prayer closet, I fight with a wandering mind or just a lack of the spirit of prayer, and sometimes singing a hymn or two will help to get me back in the right place, so to speak. I'm guessing that may be the meaning behind the "channel" but I could be wrong. Perhaps Brent could comfirm that.In Christ,Ron
Ok, Let me make this concrete. Ron has his channel. For me I listen to worship music before prayer or reading etc. = my channel. It doesnt have to be just chorus or just hymns. I love to sense God before anything. My devotions is not a 3 step process or formula.(A channel is beyond my words its the door that allows me to see HIS face =less concrete) I can go much further than this but let me know if more needs said for a clear answer??
I haven't read all the quotes, but here is my take. I have a friend whose testimony lead me to Christ, who is IF Baptist. This is what I was told by Kent Hovind, the Creation Evangelist who at one time pastored an IFB church. He feels that many in the IFB movement have become like the Amish, and begun to shun people so much that they have cut themselves off, in some cases, to an extreme that is un-Biblical. He also commented that they have stricter tolerances, and often times with this you get a better product.BTW, I have read a quote by Wesley that says that instruments are wonderful things, but they have no place in the church. IFB's are not the only ones who have been primitive in worship.The IFB has had some great preachers in the past, namely John R. Rice. Some of the IFB preachers very obviously oppose Rice's position on ecuminism (I use this word carefully). Rice went on campaigns with anyone that trusted Christ and believed the Bible, while the average IFB church will not allow their termites to fellowship with the termites from the church down the street (paraphrase of Curtis Hudson, IFB minister).I'm not big on the new stuff, hymn-wise, but I don't think it is a doctrine worth dividing over. If someone does, then let him do it for the Lord, God is his judge. But I will stand with Paul on this one:Phil 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
Here are some more great hymns: These are hymns written by Martin Luther: www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/l/u/luther_m.htm Written by Charles Wesley: www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/e/s/wesley_c.htm
Diane,I often sing that bit of the Hallelujah chorus which says 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ' (from memory... hope I'm quoting correctly from Revelation there).I understand what you mean about music having the potential to be an idol, but I don't think that's what was meant. For myself, I find the Lord very quick and willing to 'give' me a line of a tune (of Christian song, hymn, psalm) which ministers immensely to me in the Spirit. Sometimes this is before and sometimes after or nothing to do with spending time with Him consciously. I keep myself open to hear from Him in this way, and He - knowing me and the love He has given me of music which glorifies Him - comes to me in fellowship in this way. I could not function without it, even though I have gone for months without singing at all.... those were hard times, when there was no spiritual song of any kind coming through. At other times, He has used the music He brings to me to show my true relationship with Him, regardless of how I'm feeling or what has happened 'in the natural'; and sometimes, it has been a sign that I've moved out of the influence of an opposing spirit - that the song just bursts forth, like a tap has been turned on.
whats YOUR "means" of touching or reaching God?Prayer, meditation, and his Word. Any of these elements may or may not involve music, ususally not. The prayer closet is still the main "means", or "place" where I pour out my heart before God, and he speaks to me - via his Spirit. I'm not sure what you mean by "touch". I guess, I am more familiar with him "touching" me - in that he has a direct message for me - either in a personal word for me, direction, comfort, revelatory, or whatever. I remember one Sunday in church when everyone was enjoying a time of worship with music, God called me to "aside", (in my spirit) to give me a personal message about my future within that church. He told me he would be calling me out sometime in the future. He also told me that their hearts were not "in tune" to his will. I was very sad, because of the loss; they were my friends..... Meanwhile, they were all "happily praising God", not willing to admit that he was not pleased with them. Now you see why I say that it is not always an issue of hymns, or choruses, or chants, or whatever. It is an issue of obedience to God. Diane
I was wondering how many songwriters are on here?There are some great points. My musical background is pretty much modern. >Frankly much of the "contemporary" Christian music lacks depth, with some >notable exceptions such as Keith Green.I re-evaluated myself over the last year and much of what i was listening to and i came to the same conclusion as stated above. I believe there is a way, though, that you can write 'contemporary' and have depth. Thats what i pray for that kind of annointing. In that same year period, i started to study and listen to many of the hymns and I see what you mean by 'depth'. I love the fact that much of it is straight in the Word. Its truly a teaching reminder and there is no doubt you know what you are singing about. God is no mystery. >It is said that man makes God in his own image. That applies to God's >"taste" of music. What >people like is what they believe God likes. And so >they believe that THEIR music is an acceptable >offering to God. I love this quote Diane. Spot On.There are people that make music 'style' a doctrine. One of the churches i visit is going through a struggle because one side wants Traditional and the other wants more modern and traditional (mix). I listen to alot of the pastors when they discuss this issue and I admire the way they are handling/dealing with it. For some people, they may leave a church because of this. >On the same hand, I don't think many of the elder generation really "clicks" with the modern >style of praise, and so preffer hymns.Groh, i also dig Reliant K. Great musicianship. :) Yeah, that is pretty much what is happening to that church. Thanks for the link to the cyberhymns Rebecca. I'll definately check it out. I love the hymns and i love modern. There is likely good and bad in both. Its something not to be so divided over and overturn a church. I always feel challenged to improve and refine my songs to be better and better. I hope and pray that whatever comes out is pleasing to God and blesses others. I admit that my style has been changing more towards hymns. I believe you miss out so much if you neglect them.happy new year,-james
I always feel challenged to improve and refine my songs to be better and better. I hope and pray that whatever comes out is pleasing to God and blesses others.James, Your post was such a delight to read that I thought I’d bring the thread back up. It’s funny how words tend to gain definition by the way they are used. That’s the way it is with the word, “Contemporary” In our modern churches we have come to equate that word with a certain style of music - a very narrow range. Contemporary really should refer to everything written in our time, just like everything written in the 19th century (or whatever era) was contemporary for that time. A lot of present-day church music is controlled by CCLI and CCM. I’ll agree, a lot of it is trashy – not much creative talent behind them. But IT SELLS. Nevertheless there is a lot of great music written today (ie, by our contemporaries) I have a friend who is a gifted and very creative Christian songwriter. She submitted some of her arrangements and was told: Your songs are absolutely beautiful, but we cannot publish them because we only publish what sells. (in other words, what’s popular) So, keep looking, learning, and investigating, and you will find great treasures of human creativity. There is a new hymnbook put out by Hope Pub. Co. called Worship and Rejoice It seems to have preserved some of the better contemporary songs for congregational singing. I think it has a broader spectrum of choices than many have become accustomed to.Diane
I have been reading a lot about revivals, brothers, and sisters who have been in the presence of our God. In some cases, they tore up the hymnbooks because they felt they were filthy rags compared to the glory and power revealed in His presence. I do not know why I am sharing this here and now, but I think it could be a great worship song. Tearing up the hymnbooks in your presence.
Tearing up the hymnbooks in your presence.CC,I don't know whether to laugh or cry!!! I'm laughing for now, but only because I hope someone would have the foresight to keep the hymnbooks for people who haven't been in His presence yet.... :-P
...brothers, and sisters who have been in the presence of our God. In some cases, they tore up the hymnbooks Now this is interesting. Did some smash their guitars, being that they also are nothing compared to God's glory? Is this a prophetic foreshadowing of the final destruction, when all that is perishable will be consumed in God’s final judgment? Indeed the day will come when all our religious icons will be destroyed – whether hymn books, pulpits, drums, church buildings, PowerPoint projectors, drums, guitars, etc….I think of an event in the New Testament when the people destroyed their religious idols – an indication of true repentance: "Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who practiced sorcery brought their scrolls and burned them publicly." Acts 19:19 Now regarding the revival you speak of: Scripture calls us to test the spirits, as there are many false spirits around. I will do so by asking you a few questions: Had the hymnbooks become idols in your church? Did they get in the way of you first love, your devotion to God? What else did the people destroy in this revival event? Did some go home and destroy some of their excess material possessions, televisions, memorabilia? Were there other signs of repentance – like a return to the Word of God, confession of sins, worldliness etc?In the Old Testament times it was customary for the people to tear their robes when they experienced shocking grief. However, God did not want them to grieve merely because of their distressing situation. Instead, he wanted their hearts to be broken as a result of true confession of sin. God didn't want merely the outward expression of regret. He wanted inward sorrow for sin. Joel pleaded with the people, "Rend your heart and not your garments." Joel 2:12,13 I can’t help but wonder if God is really saying, “Rend your hearts, not your hymn books.”What do you think, CyberCarbon?Diane
Very thoughtful posting, my answer to your questions are my opinions not researched answers. I believe ripping the pages out of the hymnbooks was out of fear and trembling. In my original post, I said I read about it. I also heard it in Leonard Ravenhills VIDEO interview here on sermon index. In the interview Brother Ravenhill talks about a revival I believe in Wales, I think it was the revival that spread to Azusa Street. I hope you have the time to listen to it yourself. It may answer your questions better than my faulty memory.
I've heard Ravenhill talk about people tearing the hymn books because of conviction under William Booth's preaching and WP Nicholson's.
I believe ripping the pages out of the hymnbooks was out of fear and trembling.This seems like a real possibility. It is difficult sometimes, isn't it, to know what spirits are behind crowd behaviors? We know that mass hysteria is a very real thing - part of human behavior. Paul dealt with it. And yet, revival is not neat and tidy. Holy Spirit conviction can be ovewhelming. Jonathan Edward's sermons were so powerful that people clung to the posts fearing that they would descend into hell. Perhaps the test is in the long-term results. I witnessed a situation where the pastor pronounced that we should pass around a garbage can throughout the sanctuary and throw away all hymn books. He was responding to the wrong spirit working on him. Sadly his ministry declined rapidly after that. He fell into a lot of sin and refused to admit it. His was fired and left the ministry altogether. So, you see why I ask lots of questions. I have heard many "accounts" of the Spirit moving, only to discover that it was the wrong spirit. May God give us all discernment!!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think I listened to Ravenhill message a while ago, just don't remember about the hymnbook ripping event.
There is a page torn out of a hymnal at the truck stop chapel in Milton, Pa. I have always wondered why someone would cut Blessed Assurance out of this hymnal. Maybe the person sensed that Blessed Assurance is valuable. Hopefully, the person has found blessed assurance in his or her heart by now instead of in his or her pocket.
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