Have a little wine...

Don't give in to drunkenness, but a little wine is permissable?Throughout the NT is mention of drinking wine. Paul instructs to have a little wine, and not just water to help with an upset stomach. But at the same time, anything that causes a brother to stumble should be avoided.Where do you draw the line between "have a little wine" and "cause not a brother to stumble" in regards to alcohol? Basically, because of stigma of alcohol, or whatever else, would it be better in this day to avoid alcohol alltogether to defend Christ's image?Grace and Peace...

Personally I don't drink alcohol at uni. From speaking to housemates, they sound like they are very much fed up with the uselessness of the world; but they don't see an alternative and so continue there own search for pleasure. I see alcohol, even in limited forms, as a form of escapism, all to often there lives are geared up around the persuit of pleasure, rather than having it as a by product of work. As such the week revolves around going out and "loosing themselves" - If I have the answer, is it good to look like i'm trying to escape from something (even in moderation)? :PI've read quite a bit from both a scientific point of view (alcohol is far far stronger now than it was 2000 years ago), and also that the word "wine" in greek meant both grape juice or fermented "wine" - but its not a subject I have looked into vastly - I don't think there is an issue with drinking in moderation but i don't feel comfortable with it :$

Well, to first answer another comment, we know that "wine" doesn't just refer to juice alone. We're warned not to get drunk off of it, and it's pretty hard to get drunk off of grape juice :-) As far as what I believe? I believe it depends on the context of where you're at when you're drinking the wine. Here's what I mean: If I'm at home with my wife, I see no problem in having a glass with her. On the other hand, if we're at a Bible study with a recovering alcoholic present, it probably wouldn't be the best time to bust out the bubbly!On that note, however, I've heard that even having that glass with my wife would qualify me as a drinker, which could push that alcohol stigma to push a person away from the church, away from Christ.I don't know if this is a qualified concern, however. Christ and his disciples passed around the wine that signified his blood. It was culturally acceptable then, and it is now, outside of the church crowd. I wonder if the only people who are turned off by the idea are the believers who think themselves above alcohol.So it comes to this: I wouldn't drink it in the presence of a mormon- it would be offensive. A recovering alcoholic might be tempted back into sin. But a glass with my wife (and always in moderation) shouldn't be a problem.Grace and Peace...

I really want to get more of a thought from you guys, though.Grace and peace...

Please do not take the following response the wrong way, it isn't meant sarcastically....Have you prayed about it, and asked God for His council on the subject.Yes we have some very dedicated and intelligent members here, with a vast array of opinion, but Gods opinion is the only one that really counts....God bless....

I know what you mean.Actually, this isn't an issue right now- I'm under age, and can't buy alcohol at the moment. But I know godly families that believe both ways, and I want to know more of why. There's a lot of wisdom with issues like this, and the direction of those elder to us younger guys can be great.Yeah, something to pray about. But also doctrinally, what's the best thing?Grace and Peace...

How come you drink wine while you can't buy it and are under age? Or am I missing something here? :-? For what I know, alcohol is not bad. As you said, even Jesus drank it. He would also never drink too much.Keep it moderate I would say, the Bible warns against drinking too much but not against drinking any.How would a little wine cause someone to stumble?If indeed that brother is a recovering alcoholic you should not do anything yourself what can cause him to fall. If you are with people who very much dislike and disapprove drinking alcohol then don't drink it. But in general its rather the misuse of drinking alcohol instead drinking something at all that makes people question your honesty in faith. (or a possible stumble block)What is acceptable to one (within God given limits) might be very well unacceptable and a stumble block for another.But there is always something that is offensive for someone. Perhaps some people find pink shirts very offensive. :-)Where do you draw the line between "have a little wine" and "cause not a brother to stumble" in regards to alcohol? Basically, because of stigma of alcohol, or whatever else, would it be better in this day to avoid alcohol alltogether to defend Christ's image?[edit]Added another thought.

Alright. Sounds like i'm not too off base.And I don't drink at all now because I'm underage. Not just that I don't buy it, but I don't drink at all. I do turn of age in a couple of months, however, which has sparked my questions. :-) Grace and Peace...

I think if you want wine, make it yourself. Read the history behind Dr. Welch and communion wine. And it's okay in moderation, but our witness is more important.-Chris

I don't know if my wife would trust anything that I made- she won't even let me work on the car... ;-) Grace and Peace...

Certainly the bible doesn't forbid it, and it is definately not something to be used to chastise someone - however it is one temptation I could do without :PI think Leonard Ravenhill said something along the lines of (correct me if I butchered it:X); "I hope you don't spend God's money like that"Personally when alcohol abuse is such a big problem; well where I live anyway, I fear it would only be drinking to "fit in with the crowd", even in moderation - I've come to experiance you get people inquireing more about your beliefs if your willing to stick your neck out and make a stand for something (even though its allowed biblically, I don't feel mature enough to handle it :$), although it does mean they look to trip you up at every possible occasion! Admitedly, I've never thought about it within the context of the home:$

Where do you draw the line between "have a little wine" and "cause not a brother to stumble" in regards to alcohol? Basically, because of stigma of alcohol, or whatever else, would it be better in this day to avoid alcohol alltogether to defend Christ's image?I know that its not popular but I think it should be avoided all together...... maybe I'm just religious but why bother with it at all? i think that our testimony as believers is undermined by alcohol whether moderately, home made or whatever..... I think we see enough of the "evils" of alcohol just to leave it alone.Are the world not looking for us to be different - why do what they do? I'm sorry but I just can't understand believers wanting to drink. I put into the all things are lawfull but not all things are profitable category.My opinion for what its worth - Be filled with the Spirit - He's all you need.

I think a word study in the Greek for the word OINOSmight be in order here, and also it would be helpful to look at the wedding of Canaan and the new wine vs the old wine (why the VERY DISTINCT difference). More important would be a look at the properties of wine (a decaying fruit)and then look at the use in the Lords Supper. The symbolism doesn't equate. The Lords blood was pure. Wine...not so pure. Another note of historical importance is if you look at the way drink was contained and maintained in those days you'll note a vast difference. No Homoginization, refrigeration, pasturization. The grape juice naturally furmented from heat and age. It wasn't always drank for intoxication, that was just a natural effect. Yes you can get drunk on grape juice if improper care isn't taken. (from someone who use to do homebrew (like applejack).Apology in advance: There are alot of christians today who try to make scripture line up with their lifestyle (and sometimes sin) instead of making their lifestyles line up to the word.

Vance Havner: "We discuss what to do about alcolholism but nobody seems to want to do much about alcohol. And that is simply a matter of trying to mop up the floor while you leave the faucet running. I'm tired of hearing about temperance instead of abstinence, in order to please the cocktail crowd in church congregations"

I'm tired of hearing about temperance instead of abstinence, in order to please the cocktail crowd in church congregations" Sounds like something I would say, In fact I wish I had said it....direct and to the point.

Groh Frog,If you never drink, the devil cannot tempt you to get drunk! Ever think about that? That could be one less temptation you will have to deal with. All alcoholics started with one drink with no intention of ever becoming one. Since you are questioning about whether to drink alcohol or not, I suspect the Holy Spirit is telling you 'no' but you really would like for Christians to tell you it is OK in moderation, right? If you go against the leading of the HS in this matter, how can you expect Him to protect you from its ravages? Why do you want to drink? To fit in with the crowd? What crowd are you running with? Seems to me that if this is the case, you need to find new friends! Drinking people do not make the nicest companions....they will get involved in other devilments and lure you in....So my conclusion is "NO". You wanted advice from older persons...well I am 58 YO, will be 59 in a few months, does that qualify me as being old? ;-) ginnyrose

Thats very true, but the devil can tempt you to drink something and make you feel very bad about it while its not neccesary. Thats why its important to know that drinking anything is not sin. Or am I thinking that weird now?ginnyrose wrote:If you never drink, the devil cannot tempt you to get drunk! Ever think about that? That could be one less temptation you will have to deal with. All alcoholics started with one drink with no intention of ever becoming one.I find drinking only a little having just as many impact as drinking nothing. Just beeing at a birthday party and saying that you had enough also draws the attention to God in a good way.But I can certainly see the reasons one would not want to drink alcohol at all.The problem is that we can put rules on ourselves (not saying that you people do) which are not directly from the Bible but more based on personal opinion. If one would find drinking in moderation standing in the way between you and God then don't drink.Occasionaly I do go to a 'christian bar' with some people from the youth church group I am in. Sometimes I do drink a little other times I don't drink. Hopefully I'm not seen as a heretic by some now. :-P

Hello,Occasionaly I do go to a 'christian bar' I am unfamiliar with this term, could you please elaborate?

Well, I bring up this topic because I've seen so much diverse thinking and rationalizing on it. Basically, there's three general kinds of "christian" viewpoints on alcohol (in quotes, because I really don't believe one of them to be very christian, only rationalized):The first is the abstainence view. It says that since there's a chance of having a problem, it's better to avoid it all together. It's good in that it shows good discipline in what could be a problem area. Maybe not so good, in that it's the same rationale that got the amish started (avoid fancy things all together).The second is the opposite extreme, where the person takes the "all things permissalbe" view and does what they want. If they like alcohol, they drink as they feel they want to. I know a family that has this viewpoint- they also take the same stance on gambling, spending money, etc. They went so far as to take each of their kids to mexico on their 16th birthday so that they could let them drink. To me, it's disgusting. It's in blatent disregard to self-control and "don't get drunk".The third group, where I stand, is the group that keeps it within reason. A little alcohol (I'm talking a glass of wine, not a half-dozen shots of liquor, etc.) isn't a problem, when doen in the right place, right time. As an example, I know a family that has alcohol in their home- two kinds, in fact. There's a bottle of whiskey to cook with (if you hunt, you know what I'm talking about), and a bottle of wine. Every night, the husband and wife sit down on their couch in front of the fireplace and share a glass of wine together. It's their time to sit and share something they enjoy. They don't socially drink (possibly cause another to stumble), and they don't drink to get drunk- just one glass.Anyway, out of the three examples, I think that there's two that are reasonable and good. With the "no alcohol at all" viewpoint, I think it's more of a matter of "if he eats only veggies, who cares? Don't worry about it" (Ok, don't stone me. Really rough paraphrase, I know).We do have to be careful with anything like this though. People are watching everything we do, and that has to be taken into account. I also believe that much of the stigma of any alcohol is created largely by Christians who assume that any drink means getting drunk, and push a stigma that it should be completely off limits.Now, there were a couple of quotes from other people about this. The only one that seems relevant, however, is the one about ravenhill that says "I hope you don't spend God's money that way." Some, like the quote from Havner, I think might be without base.And that's actually the root of this thread. I'll say honestly that I already have my mind set somewhat on this issue, for the simple fact that it's tossed around often with lack of scripture to back it up. I also recognize that sometimes we don't need scripture to know that something should be avoided- like gambling. ginny, and to the other elders out there, I really appreciate the wisdom gained from experience. Especially with subjects like this one, we need our elders speaking up and actually stepping forward to teach the younger. That's something that is rare anymore, but that's another thread...Anyway, I wonder if sometimes this subject isn't similar to, say, owning a gun. Just having a gun doesn't mean you plan on shooting someone, but sometimes a person just enjoys shooting at the range. Know what I mean?I want to know more of what you were getting at, lamuskrat. I know what you mean about people trying to line scripture up with their beliefs, but it sometimes goes both ways...But, as we continue on, know that I, and I'm sure others, appreciate the advice and knowledge shared.Grace and Peace...

Occasionaly I do go to a 'christian bar' with some people from the youth church group I am in. Sometimes I do drink a little other times I don't drink.Utterly mind boggling....and damnable just putting the word christian before something does not give it validity. I would seriously like to see the doctinal statement of this church. What are the doctrines being expounded. Please (with heavy heart) seek God in this. Let the Holy Spirit (if you are open to His leading)lead you in matters like this.

Someone mentioned earlier that we should seek God for his opinion about alcoholic consumption. That to me is the best answer I have read so far. We each need to learn what God is saying to us, because we are accountable for our choices. Clearly you can’t use scriptures to justify abstinence or require it of others, but we sure can get a lot of guidance in Scripture. In Romans 14 we are warned not to violate our conscience. So if a person does something that violates their conscience, they end up carrying guilt, which is harmful. A clear conscience is important. Here is another guideline that speaks to me: In the Old Testament God warned the people of Israel not to crave the delicacies of the world BECAUSE he wanted them to be separate from the world, and find their fulfillment in him. We have a lot of delicacies in our world, though we don't call them delicacies. We have all kinds of food and drink items that are very fancy, refined, and tasty. We Christians think nothing of stuffing ourselves with the delicacies of the world – sugar filled, caffeine, salt, fat saturated, MSG, artificial sweetener. Yet research is clearly revealing that these products are harmful for us, and predispose to many diseases. Are we willing to give up our cravings for these things in order to preserve our health? Or are we overly dependent on them? Personally God has been convicting me and calling me to give up many delicacies. That is my conviction based on the information I am reading about food. However, I cannot insist that my church make it a policy, though, I’d love to. I’d love to see healthier life styles. I can merely set an example. (As of yet, I’m not the best example.. .my…. how my words are convicting. )What about giving up something that may not be harmful in itself, but may harm our relationship with God? If God is calling us into deeper intimacy with him, he may ask us to give up anything - maybe alchohol, maybe socials. The real issue then becomes, are we willing to give it anything that has too much of a hold on us, preferring to become closer to God? God may call one person to surrender their morning coffee, another sweets, and another, all alcohol. God is pleased with anyone who seek him with all their hearts, and abstaining from alcohol is an issue of personal conviction. Diane

Hi npautsky and lamuskrat!I already thought that someone would comment on that. Thats why I put 'christian-bar' between ''. So far I know this bar is not an initiative from a church. The idea behind it is to have a place for christian people to go out to. But infact in my opinion there is not much christian about it, except that they do play christian music.lamusrat wrote: Please (with heavy heart) seek God in this. Let the Holy Spirit (if you are open to His leading)lead you in matters like this.I used to come there quite often. But as I grew in my relationship with God I felt going there being a waste of time. Most conversations where about chit/chat and not about God, let alone that some people drink too much in my opinion (altough they don't get drunk). The people from the youth-club who I used to go out to this place alot, already asked me why I don't go here that often anymore. I explained them that I didn't enjoy going out that much as I am missing conversations about God and I would rather use the time to read the Bible or pray.But for a bit more then a year ago a friend asked me if I wanted to go bowling with him.At first I didn't want to go (also because I had no money) but I did went with him. Afterwards he asked me if I wanted something to drink in that bar. I was reluctant to go there as there is nothing really that draws me there in general, but as its the only suitable place to talk apart from a snackbar and there are no girls that dance on the bartable, wordly songs being played and other immoral things done I agreed.So we went there to get a drink and to talk. To my surprise God used this to let me talk with a girl about Him. I've had a long talk with her that even continued on the street till 4 am. I didn't even had to ask her to choose for God! Recently I heard from her that she went on her knees that night and asked forgiveness and sought God in prayer! (she was backslidden or never really converted)I was so amazed about this because I didn't even want to go. If it was for me then I wouldn't even be there. If he asked me if I would want to go out to that bar I would have said no... You can imagine how surprised I was at this. I don't think highly about so called 'christian-bars' as its not my place of preference to be at. Its infact nothing more then a place where people go to talk and drink. I'm not about to defend 'christian-bars' or to explain this term. (as others label it such and I haven't invented it) but I had to define this place by some name. The term 'christian-bar' seems a contradiction to me as I didn't found God to be present in such a place or Him being exalted their. It's hard to share your heart and motives on a forum as most of you don't know my heart or me in real-life. I do agree that I have to watch being seperated from the world and at the same time not be out of the world. I appreciate it that you people are being worried about my soul. :-)

Dear ChristiansStudy every reference in the Bible of wine and intoxicating beverages. It's what God says in His word that matters. We all have our opinions. How about starting with a clean slate and asking God to show us in His word what He has to say about the subject?

The only people who were expressly forbidden the use of alcohol were Nazarites, Priests and Kings (and on at least one occasion, the mother of a Nazarite). Priests and Kings were forbidden alcohol because they needed 'their wits about them'. If we regard ourselves as 'both' priests and kings... it may just be a sacrifice worth making?

It may be, and if the Lord puts that on my heart I won't drink anymore.But I also want to point at Jesus again, even though Nazarites, Priests and Kings were forbidden to drink alcohol He did drink alcohol.Luke 7:3434 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!This above is what the pharisees said about Jesus.The only people who were expressly forbidden the use of alcohol were Nazarites, Priests and Kings (and on at least one occasion, the mother of a Nazarite). Priests and Kings were forbidden alcohol because they needed 'their wits about them'. If we regard ourselves as 'both' priests and kings... it may just be a sacrifice worth making?

It's like this my friend: When I was in bible college, one of the curriculum was "sports evangelism". I thought, "what in the world is that"?. My roomate took this elective and was really impressed with it. Well one day/night we got into a discussion about this course. He said that it is "legitimate" evangelism. I thought Wow, christians going down to the inner city, play'n some B-ball and taking the oppurtunity to witness Christ with the youth and parents. Well thats cool, no problem, except....THEY WERE PLAYING ANOTHER CHURCH. Not the same denomination, but at least in the protestant realm. So tell me how in the world that is evangelism? Just because someone in their finite minds were looking to make sports an acceptable means to evangelize doesn't make it evangelism. Just because a Prof./Academic leader or Ministerial staff deems it a legitimate means and course don't make it so. Actual conversions from the game: 0 (real effective program, right?) Point: Just because a church, church leader, denomination or christian forum (just had to put that in...lol) accepts something as spiritual/biblical, that doesn't make it so.It is only what God thinks and accepts that counts. I appreciate it that you people are being worried about my soul Dear friend and Bro., we are all in this together. I need you as much as you need me. We are all part of the body of Christ, each having a purpose (a head without a neck would look funny and wouldn't funtion to well).

But I also want to point at Jesus again, even though Nazarites, Priests and Kings were forbidden to drink alcohol He did drink alcohol. A look into the greek would be helpful here. Also look into the use of the word wine in translation. I could expound on this subject, but it would be more beneficial for you to study (II Timothy 2:15), Use other sources other than the Bible for this study (ie; commentaries, Lexicons, encyclepedias, and historical/cultural data).

Pretty much been said already. Priests and Kings were forbidden, fair enough, but Jesus drank it and he also saved the day at a wedding by turning a load of water into it after the supply had been drunk dry, therefore I reckon a couple of glasses here and there is alright.Any other teaching in my opinion can't be backed up by the new testament. Happy to be corrected though!

Why would you want to drink alcohol? I think it would do us some good the next time we see a glass of alcohol to think about all the people in hell that spend their whole lives consumed by it. The next time you over eat think about all the gluttons. Who is our focus on in questions of this matter? Where is our heart at?I'm not trying to prove a certain point with these questions, I have to answer them honestly as I write this.

what do you think of the example of the couple that shares a glass together in the evening? Is that an alright way to relax together? I mean, it's nice to spend time in different ways with our spouses. Do you think that that might be an acceptable use of wine? [edit: Really, I want your opinion- not just testing for answers]Grace and Peace...

Dear ChristiansStudy every reference in the Bible of wine and intoxicating beverages. It's what God says in His word that matters. We all have our opinions. How about starting with a clean slate and asking God to show us in His word what He has to say about the subject?

Hey lamuskrat,I can back that up what you said with scripture.Matthew 7:21,2221 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?lamuskrat wrote: So tell me how in the world that is evangelism? Just because someone in their finite minds were looking to make sports an acceptable means to evangelize doesn't make it evangelism. Just because a Prof./Academic leader or Ministerial staff deems it a legitimate means and course don't make it so.To give an answer on your question, that doesn't seem like evangelism to me. What I sometimes pray for some things is this: Lord let it happen on Your time, in your will and on Your way.lamuskrat wrote: It is only what God thinks and accepts that counts.Amen. When I was in bible college, one of the curriculum was "sports evangelism". I thought, "what in the world is that"?. My roomate took this elective and was really impressed with it. Well one day/night we got into a discussion about this course. He said that it is "legitimate" evangelism. I thought Wow, christians going down to the inner city, play'n some B-ball and taking the oppurtunity to witness Christ with the youth and parents.The problem I have with this type of evangelizing is that a person comes to play sports, not to hear the gospel. If there was no sports he/she would not be there.The problem with a 'christian-bar' would be that most people just come for the sake of socializing and doing things that have nothing to do with God. If there is a dance night it might be packed, but if there would be no music and such it would be empty.I do have a problem with 'repacking the Gospel', thats why I left the Youth church where I helped with. Without the repackaging people are not drawn in out themselves which makes it a failure for alot people. This reminds me of the sermon I last listened from Ravenhill - Who's touched the Arc.(not exact quote)This man only pushed against the arc. Today we dress it up and paint the arc, what are we doing with the gospel today?

Thanks for pointing to 2 Tim 2:15. :-) A look into the greek would be helpful here. Also look into the use of the word wine in translation.I could expound on this subject, but it would be more beneficial for you to study (II Timothy 2:15),Use other sources other than the Bible for this study (ie; commentaries, Lexicons, encyclepedias, and historical/cultural data).

Like was said in previous posts....STUDY and read in context, don't come to the word with preconceived ideas....empty yourself of all conclusions and go to the Word and other lit. PRAYERFULLY. I don't want you to believe ME,trust in OUR faithful God and allow His Spirit to lead and reveal.I challenge anyone who's theology might be in question to do the same on ANY subject. In His service, with love....

Groh_Frog,If ever in doubt, don't! Good rule to live by. You may not understand the doubt at the moment, but if you act on it, that is an act of faith. Do you know what the bible says about Faith? Take a concordance and check out the references that mention faith. When you study the context you will find that faith cannot be separated from obedience.Blessings,ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote:Groh_Frog,If ever in doubt, don't! Good rule to live by. You may not understand the doubt at the moment, but if you act on it, that is an act of faith. Do you know what the bible says about Faith? Take a concordance and check out the references that mention faith. When you study the context you will find that faith cannot be separated from obedience.Blessings,ginnyroseGinnyrose,Are you insinuating that someone who drinks wine is being disobedient? The topic of this thread was wine drinking, so maybe I'm missing something from your faith/obedience reference. If you are implying that wine drinking equals disobedience I would like to state from the outset that the Church I belong to has been drinking wine every Sunday for 1,973 years. (Not since 1973!) If you are not implying that then please ignore what I'm about to say.As for one having a doubt about something and because of that doubt not acting on it, that would be good advice in general but not necessarily on this topic. My reasoning is that so many American fundementalist/baptist/pentecostals have such an anti-Catholic bias on things such as wine, the Eucharist, infant baptism, etc., that in my opinion they also (in ignorance) reject reformed Catholicism such as Lutherans and Episcopals(I used to do it so I know that of which I speak). So an erroneous presupposition may be a cause for doubt, as much as a legitimate reason is a cause for doubt. I must say that it appears to me that the prohibitionist sects of Christianity really are often quite judgemental when stating or implying that others who do not share their taboos are sinners outside of Gods will. There are Christians who are just as devoted, study the scriptures just as much, love Jesus Christ just as much as any prohibitionist, and believe that drinking wine is perfectly acceptable recreationally as well as sacramentally.

What a great question! I guess I had better bellyup--ooops!! ;-) --uh, give my 2 cents. I was blessed to have a wonderful Dad, after he got sober, in particular. And he shared a lot of wisdom and hard-earned common sense with me. Much of it has already been mentioned here. As in: the wine in the NT, MUST have been WINE b/c why else did the guests at the wedding make the crack about "most ppl serve the good stuff first and then bring out the weaker wine"? And it makes perfect sense to me (altho I'm not the most learned person around, I know), that Paul would encourage Timothy to havea bit of wine, if for nothing else, the antiseptic qualities. reckon the water might not have been the best, or perhaps Tim had a stomach flu, and that was what was on hand to combat the problem? Who knows. But, as for me, BTW, also a "recovered" alkie/addict, I have to say, that if there is moderation involved,(and assuming that the person in question does NOT have a history of OVER-imbibing) like a toast for a wedding, or some cultural thing, or like was mentioned, a glass of wine with the spouse, there's no problem, IMHO. Now, if you were asking about a shot after work with "the guys", or a BOTTLe for the toast at the wedding.....uh, well, there's a 12-step program for that, friend. ;o) But the deal is, in my experience, you gotta test your motives. IS it NOT a thing, to have A drink??, or is there somewhere, lurking the "hidden" thoughts of sneaking one more, or "nobody here knows me..." or, you get the picture. I guess, overall, to ME, the biggest problem with ppl drinking, ANY amount, is that it makes us even easier targets for the loser to come and mess with. I fall easily enough into sin, without voluntarily letting all my defenses down, by drinking a bit much. They say Alcohol decreases your inhibitions; it's called "liquid courage", and a "social lubricant". Hm. Anybody see anything in those 3 that give Jesus the glory, and magnify HIS name? uhhh, me neither.;o) Very good topic, thanks for letting me share. abbie

Paul taught that all things are permitted but not all things are profitable.Paul also taught we are not to be a stumbling block for another. So the question really is what are the circumstances and how well do you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Now when I was in Melbourne I was speaking to a pastor who was on outreach with us, and this topic came up.He said if we look at the original context and language of the greek word for wine, can be used either for formented wine, or non formented grape juice.He then want on to expalin about the Jesus and the wedding at cana, where the water became wine, and he said that the words used there talk about it being the freshes of grapes used. He pointed out grapes need to sit for awhile to fermeant then it becomes aloholic. Fresh grapes would result in non aloholic grape juice.Also would Jesus drink the wine? Would God do something that could make some one stumble? I highly doubt it.Personally I am dead set against Christians drinking. I think it compromises our witness, and it has a high chance of causing others to stumble.The apostle Paul said 'a little wine' but define a little? Is it a mouthful? a cup full? Is it alcoholic wine, or non a alcoholic?Proverbs 20:1 says "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise" (NKJV)So I think as a matter we should not drink as Christians.

The problem with a 'christian-bar'Many years ago I had a pastor who would go to the bars to witness. His church fired him because they couldn't take his evangelistic zeal. (It was a reformed church) Christ called us to go into the world and preach the gospel. He did not call us to bring the world into us. There is a big difference between trying to sanctify the worldly ways so that we can have a a "better" place to witness, and going into the world and being an undefiled witness.In other words, why do Christians need to have a "Christian" bar? Isn't that what the Pharisees would do - make up with something that would keep themselves feeling "pure and undefiled". Why can't Christians just go to the existing bars and show some love and compassion to some of our society's most desperate souls - the down-and-outers, the losers who have messed up their lives and know of no way out other than to drown the pain with a some alcohol.And whether one feels right about having a drink while there probably depends mostly on their religous background and their convictions. The issue is: Don't be bound by your own comfort zones. Love your neighbor. Consider others better than yourself.... Don't judge what others eat or drink. Just follow God's Spirit for your own life. And God will bring in a harvest. PS I find it rather humerous that Jesus turned huge jugs of water (!!!!) into wine. It is just like him to break through people's comfort zones and shock them. What would he do today?Diane

I believe we have liberty, but it is wise to error to caution.

Diane,I was raised a fundy and I drank hard every night. Now I'm an Episcopalian and hardly drink at all, go figure.

I was raised a fundy and I drank hard every night. Now I'm an Episcopalian and hardly drink at all, go figure.Makes sense to me! You know how it is with kids. When they can't have something, they want it, and when they can have it, they don't care for it anymore. Reminds me of the paint sign: DO NOT TOUCH, WET PAINT What's the first thing you think when you read the sign? Don't we all have a bit of "little kid" in us?... Okay, maybe I'm really getting off track. Diane

Sir,I was NOT insinuating that drinking wine is a sin. If you will notice the original post the question was whether it is ok to drink wine. I have found in my 58 years of living that when in doubt about whether one should do something, that doubt was planted there by the HS, and failure to listen to it always brings me to grief. If a person has to ask whether it is ok, I suspect he has doubts as to the wisdom of it. And if you really are thinking I am being {EDIT) irrational, let me tell you, if my 25 YO son would never have tasted it at an early age at the home of a friend, I suspect he may not like it as well as he does now. Is he an alcoholic? I do not think so. Does he get drunk? YES! Am I still (EDIT)unreasonable?ginnyrose

dear Sister;Does this mean that the "taste" for alcohol might be increased by the consumption at an earlier age? I suggest that this has no bearing. If a person is pre-disposed to this particular escape, they are going to abuse, whether they begin at 8 years old or 58. Meanwhile, the enemy of our souls is going to find whatever weapons he can, to convince us that sin is good. ("NOT deadly!") IS alcohol sin? In general,NO. I remember the scriptures saying that whatever YOUR conviction may be, adhere to it, and don't parade it around those who might not feel the same convictions. When I am in mixed company I am not going to wear the same clothes that I might if I were in a situation with only other women. Are shorts a sin? No, I don't think so. But God gave us common sense. It is a sin to wear a swimming suit? No, but if it is possible to cause a brother to sin, then maybe it IS, THEN.I know the point has been made, but I just thot I'd add that little bit.Blessingsabbie

:-(Diane wrote: Many years ago I had a pastor who would go to the bars to witness. His church fired him because they couldn't take his evangelistic zeal. (It was a reformed church)Indeed.. James 4:4 springs to mind.Christ called us to go into the world and preach the gospel. He did not call us to bring the world into us.There is a big difference between trying to sanctify the worldly ways so that we can have a a "better" place to witness, and going into the world and being an undefiled witness.Well this did got me thinking you know.Most christians who go to this 'christian bar' would not be interrested in doing that. Thats not what I know, but what I feel. I would rather not go to normal bars and clubs, unless indeed God drives me to do it for witnessing. But I need to die to shame and pride more.. till then I rather stay out of those places. Shameless drinking, places where people give into their passions, no its not a pretty sight. Diane wrote: Why can't Christians just go to the existing bars and show some love and compassion to some of our society's most desperate souls - the down-and-outers, the losers who have messed up their lives and know of no way out other than to drown the pain with a some alcohol. I agrea.And whether one feels right about having a drink while there probably depends mostly on their religous background and their convictions.The issue is: Don't be bound by your own comfort zones. Love your neighbor. Consider others better than yourself.... Don't judge what others eat or drink. Just follow God's Spirit for your own life. And God will bring in a harvest.Today He probably would have shaken the christian world. :-)PS I find it rather humerous that Jesus turned huge jugs of water (!!!!) into wine. It is just like him to break through people's comfort zones and shock them. What would he do today?

Diane,LOL! you are talking like a mom! LOL Reminds me of the paint sign: DO NOT TOUCH, WET PAINT What's the first thing you think when you read the sign? Don't we all have a bit of "little kid" in us?... Okay, maybe I'm really getting off track. DianeThis is human nature, is it not? We may not even want to do something unless it is prohibited first of all. Only then will it start looking attractive. Nothing new, even Brother Paul writes about that...ginnyrose

I am all for freedom of conscience in this area. I have been a total abstainer since I was 16 but I would never want to impose that on another; many of my friends drink alcohol in moderation.However, I don't think anyone has pointed out that Timothy was clearly a 'total abstainer' which is why Paul gave him the specific advice. “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1Tim. 5:23, KJVS)We might have expected the word 'drink' here but Paul's advice does not have any immediate relevance for the regular 'wine drinker'. In that sense he is not talking about 'drinking wine' but 'using wine'. Paul's advice is a medical remedy for a diagnosed condition, 'frequent infirmity'. Really only 'total abstainers' can apply Paul's advice and, apparenlty, only if their current diet is frequently making them ill.Again, I am not trying to make 'total abstenance' a Christian law; that would mean any 'using' of 'alcohol' would be a sin and such is clearly not the case otherwise Paul would not have encouraged it. I am just trying to make the point that this particular reference really has no weight in the 'alcohol or no-alcohol' debate. For those total abstainers whose frequent illness is being caused by the drinking of water this advice is perfectly applicable but for any others it is not so pertinent.

Reminds me of the paint sign: DO NOT TOUCH, WET PAINT What's the first thing you think when you read the sign? Occasionally in the UK you will get a painter who understands human nature. They paint a 3 inch square on the pavement with the words 'please test here'. :-)

I was raised a fundy and I drank hard every night. Now I'm an Episcopalian and hardly drink at all, go figure.I'll run by this one again: In all seriousness, Jimbob, what was the driving force behind the change in your drinking habits? Diane

I don't have time to say much right now.To the original question...I say this:Why would a Christian want to have anything to do with something that destroys so many lives?I just can't believe that God would be pleased with me buying a bottle of wine...whether I drink it in moderation or not.Seems to me I would be catering to my flesh..among other things.I don't think it's a question of whether I can drink alone with my wife...but what if God was sitting on my couch? Would I offer Him a glass?I think not.God Bless.Mark

Im a new guy, just went through the posts and really felt the need to voice my opinion due to a fact that I take great interest in the current subject.I sincerely believe if God was sitting on my couch,(as the Holy Spirit does in a believers life), I would offer HIM a glass of wine. The Word of God clearly states wherever the blessing of God is there wine flowed. The Word also says that we will wine and dine in heaven. Romans 14:22 says Happy is the man who's heart does not condemn himself. It depends if you do it out of faith or out of doubt, onlky knowing the scriptures on that subject will bring illumination to the minds of the believers. Drinking wine in faith (not getting drunk) and not offending someone (otherwise dont) is not sin. Lack of knowledge in scripture breeds forth unnecessory condemnation. Eating is not sin but glutony is. Same drinking wine is not sin, but getting drunk is. I know many world known preachers who drinks wine or beer, depending on cultural intressts.Hope this brings light to the subjectPlease excuse my English, That is not my primary language.In HIS Love.

It is always a great opportunity to suggest trying the search function here on the main page.Here are a couple of related links;alcoholWine or Grapejuice? Likely pointed out within these, but it is a good thing to try and get the context and as much as possible the culture of the times that scripture was written. The differences as they become extrapolated into a modern context can be vastly misconstrued.On a more practical level, something that might be enlightening would be to talk to some ex-alcoholics, attend a AA meeting. It very well will give one a different perspective.

Why would a Christian want to have anything to do with something that destroys so many lives?How would Christians have babies then? Diane

I would rather not go to normal bars and clubs, unless indeed God drives me to do it for witnessing. But I need to die to shame and pride more.. till then I rather stay out of those places.These words seem to ring something of a humble heart. I agree, it is a case of who/what masters (drives) us. The thought occurred to me while reading your words: It could have been you or I in there, controlled by a self-destructive force, filled with shame and self-disrespect, hardened in sin, knowing NO OTHER WAY. If we wanted out, and wanted help, how would we feel if we knew that Christians were walking right by, BECAUSE they didn't want to defile themselves with our sins? But I need to die to shame and pride more.Really this is our own personal issue, isn't it? If we feel shame for being seen "among sinners", then we have somewhat of a pharisaical heart. Perhaps we are being mastered by our religious peers, and self-righteous convictions. Is that any different than being mastered by alcohol? What would Jesus say about that? Maybe he tests us from time to time: Do our personal convictions master us more than the Spirit of Christ? Diane

roadsign wrote:

Why would a Christian want to have anything to do with something that destroys so many lives?How would Christians have babies then? Diane

Diane, what do you mean by this statement:quoteHow would Christians have babies then? DianeSurely you know the process that results in conception is made and commanded to by God? Changing the subject: Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for stomach's sake. Now when you take medicine for an illness, how much is being consumed? Very little. Alcoholic beverages make good medicine, so I am told. The scriptures do not prohibit it from that use, just like it can be argued that morophine can be used. I have an uncle who raised cattle on his farm. He also kept a bottle of whiskey in the fridge to treat any ailing calves/cows. One day he noticed it was going down faster then what he was using to treat his animals. So he confronted his boys: is any one of you drinking this stuff? One boy hung his head and admitted he was. Uncle Mel said I got rid of the stuff: it is far better to lose animals then to have any of my sons turn out to be an alcoholic. ginnyrose

Sentry Amen!!! I am so sick of the worldly churches and it's members. God help us....THEM.

It’s difficult holding back after reading so much opinion. It’s what God states in His word that matters!In the Old Testament there are many references to wine. How many of you have looked them all up and studied them? There are several in the New Testament as well. With all the laws in the Old Testament, is there a verse that states that any drinking is sin for all of God’s people? I have not found any. There were certain people that were not allowed to drink, such as the Nazarenes, and Aaron and his sons when they entered into the tent meeting (Leviticus 10:9). Etc. There are several verses that warn of its abuse, like Proverbs 20:1. Notice the second part, “whoever is led astray by them is not wise” (NIV).In the New Testament it says that drunkenness is a sin. There are many reading these posts that have a problem with that, because you believe that all drinking is sin. The Bible says what it does, just accept it! No where in the Bible does God encourage people to drink. Many parents (my parents included) did not allow their children to drink. We are all going to stand before God someday and give an account. It does not matter what the preacher thinks, or what I think. Study, and study God’s word, and base your opinion on the facts of the word. I used to have a hard time with what the Bible says about alcohol because I was brought up that all drinking is a sin. After studying the Bible over the years I have come to accept what God says in His Word. “God says it; I believe it; that settles it”

ServantofGod wrote:After studying the Bible over the years I have come to accept what God says in His Word. “God says it; I believe it; that settles it”Actually, God said it, that settles it. Whether we believe it or not.I hope I haven't offended anyone. I guess we will agree to disagree. The main thing is that God is Lord of our lives. Amen?In Christ...Mark

A couple of quotes from this thread.'What ever happened to Christians being set apart from the World and it's wicked ways?''I am so sick of the worldly churches and it's members. God help us....THEM.'Wicked ways - when this thread started we were talking about a bloke sharing a glass of wine with his wife!Worldly churches and it's members - Enjoying a drink makes them worldly?You guys sound like you need to chill a bit, have a drink while you're at it!

Hey Diane,It seems I can't really express myself well enough with words at times. :-(Diane wrote:

Warrior4Jah wrote: I would rather not go to normal bars and clubs, unless indeed God drives me to do it for witnessing. But I need to die to shame and pride more.. till then I rather stay out of those places.These words seem to ring something of a humble heart. I agree, it is a case of who/what masters (drives) us.The thought occurred to me while reading your words:It could have been you or I in there, controlled by a self-destructive force, filled with shame and self-disrespect, hardened in sin, knowing NO OTHER WAY.If we wanted out, and wanted help, how would we feel if we knew that Christians were walking right by, BECAUSE they didn't want to defile themselves with our sins?

Warrior4Jah wrote: But I need to die to shame and pride more.Really this is our own personal issue, isn't it? If we feel shame for being seen "among sinners", then we have somewhat of a pharisaical heart. Perhaps we are being mastered by our religious peers, and self-righteous convictions. Is that any different than being mastered by alcohol? What would Jesus say about that? Maybe he tests us from time to time: Do our personal convictions master us more than the Spirit of Christ?Diane

Why would a Christian want to have anything to do with something that destroys so many lives?I was challenging this conviction with the response: How would Christians have babies then? When we believe that we must avoid all the things that destroy lives, we soon find ourselves not able to be consistant. The abuse of sex has caused insermountable devastation to our society. Of course that doesn't imply that Christians should practice abstinence. (Made clear in the Bible) There are so many good things that are abused: ex: food -(obesity is getting to be a big killer, so are health problems caused by long term poor diets in our culture) We can also talk about using weapons to kill people... on it goes. So, you see, just about anything that God has given us or that we make can be misused or well-used.I believe that our lives must be driven by another conviction, or we will end up experiencing dilemas like Peter did when the sheet of "unclean" animals came down. I think that the Bible gives us very clear direction: We must be submitted to the constant guiding of the Spirit. If not, it doesn't matter how clean we keep ourselves. We will only be whitewashed tombs. Warrier, If I read you right, then I suspect you are referring to a sense of shame for appearing strange to the crowd - doing what is not the "norm" in a bar - rescuing the sinner, speaking the name of the Lord. Isn't that the way our conscience has been programmed from day one: conform to social standards? But what if I knew that there was someone in (for example) a filthy bar with strippers and drinking contests who was ready to accept the gospel and throw around his life? I'm sure I would rush in to speak to that person. I'll never forget what a missionary in the dangerous jungles of South America said when we were there: Do not go anywhere unless God is leading you there, and you are doing his work. Do not go somewhere just for curiosity. Today I listened to Art Katz's sermon, "Be Ye Perfect" He reminded me that even "helping" a sinner must happen in God's timing and motivated by his Spirit, or it is merely good - not God's perfect will. So while total abstinance from alcohol, coffee, and cake is good, in itself, it never produces God's Perfect. Diane

WACKHIMTONY wrote:You guys sound like you need to chill a bit, have a drink while you're at it!Yeah, sure....Maybe fire up a joint while I'm at it.As long as it's in moderation, why not?Seriously, I don't take too kindly to that remark.Just for the record...I used to drink.A LOT.But all it took was just one drink to get me started.I don't want to argue with anyone about this...because we seem to disagree on this.All I ask is please don't give someone else the advice you gave me...to just chill out and have a drink.I have the common sense to know better. Someone else, perhaps a young person reading this thread...may not.

Worldly churches and it's members - Enjoying a drink makes them worldly?No shepards not taking care of their sheep,Exangelists with no fortitude/backbone,church members trying to circumvent holiness, Godliness, sanctification and last but not least SEPERATIONthats where wordliness comes in.

Although I respect that people abstain from drinking because they have seen the damage it has done, struggle with it personally, or it is part of their personal calling (such as John the Baptist), I think it is also important not to allow zeal for abstenance to rewrite the Bible by replacing the word "wine" with "fresh grape juice". I believe the word "wine" in the Bible generally means alcoholic wine.Some examples :-Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever, thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever, thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,God gave instructions for the Israelite to celebrate with food and drink of their choice. "For wine, or for strong drink" is quite clearly alcoholic beverages. (Interesting the list didn't include pork which was prohibited to Jews)For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.(Luk 1:15)"wine nor strong drink" here appears to be aimed at prohibiting all alcoholic beverages in John's life. Wine cannot therefore mean fresh grape juice only.Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! Other translations translate winebibber as drunkard. Jesus was accused of being a glutton because he ate food, and a winebibber/drunkard because he consumed wine.Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.ALthough it may have been customary to offer the best available first, I think the inferior wine was especially served after the better wine, because the guest's taste buds would have dulled somewhat. Fresh grape juice is also very sweet. I don't think many people would have "well drunk" fresh juice.Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Wine here is obviously intoxicating.A doubt a little fresh grape juice would have helped Timothy's sore stomach."Old wine in old wine skins." They didn't have modern preservatives in those days. Grape juice naturally ferments with time, as the yeast exists under the grape's own peel. Apples is the other fruit that has this property. To make wine out of other fruits, yeast needs to be added.Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. PassingThru

How many of you have looked them all up and studied them?Thanks for bringing this up. I attend Indiana University, which infamously attained the status of #1 party school by the Princeton Review a few years ago, and more recently the #1 beer school. Alcohol is everywhere, even in moderation among Christian circles. I have friends that have been ensnared at times. So this was a very important issue to me. All of us have preconceived ideas regarding the issue, and most of us unwittingly take those with us when examining parts of scripture. I have (to the best of my knowledge) been through every reference of alcohol in scripture, going in the best I could without bias, not knowing what to expect. There are roughly 160 passages relating to our word "wine" or "strong drink". 45% of them appear to refer to alcoholic beverages, 45% appear to refer to non-alcoholic grape juice, and 10% are unclear. I could only find one definitive reference to alcohol being viewed in a positive light. That is Deut. 14:26, which doesn't even apply to us. They were only to enjoy this alcohol and pleasure before the Lord in their house when they couldn't physically make it to the temple for the offering. We no longer make offerings nor do we go somewhere to worship...we have access to the throne through Christ and our temple is our body. Paul's reference to Timothy appears on the surface to be an alcoholic one, because we think of alcohol being more medicinal than grape juice. But any wine drinker or doctor will tell you than wine is not the best thing to dring for stomach problems. Whiskey for congestion maybe, but wine will upset the stomach. However, what do doctors tell those with the flu? "Drink plenty of liquids; water and juices mostly; avoid carbonated beverages, milk prducts, and alcohol". I do not want to quarrel about this verse. I am not 100% sure that Paul wanted Timothy to drink grape. I'm not even 60% sure. I just wanted to point that out.Someone asked earlier where it prohibits alcohol in scripture. Someone mentioned Lev. 10:9, which forbade priests to partake. We are now all priests unto God. Now, you could say it means specifically leaders of a church. Fine. You could also say it only meant inside the tabernacle of the congregation. But look at WHY they weren't to drink. "That ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean". In Proverbs we are told "do not look upon the wine when it is red" and "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts". Now, in my study I could not find where drinking is an outright sin. But I believe the overwhelming theme of scripture is that while it might not necessarily be a sin, Christians SHOULD abstain in most all circustances. In the past, I have enjoyed a beer or wine in certain circumstances, when my conscience permitted. But presently due to what I believe scripture says, I abstain at all times. Y'alls convictions may be different, but you must study the scriptures and be convinced in your own mind.Here is a good perspective from David Wilkerson, who is a teetotaler. http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/sipsaint.htmlBlessings,denver