My friend believes in "Generational curse and sins."

My friend called to tell me she went to an awesome seminar on generational curses. She thinks her mother’s sins and cursing were passed to her, and believes God is punishing her for her mother’s sin.I can't believed people are collecting money to teach people such foolishness. If people would leave the world behind and spend more quiet time with the Lord they would be better englighten when they read the bible. I shared these verese and told her to read Ezekiel 18.2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!John 5:24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.Ezekiel 18 1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. 10If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, 12Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 14Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. 19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Paula,I also want to believe this is a bunch of foolishness, yet when I see how some sins run in families, I am not so sure...and I did not have to go to a seminar to be taught this! I do not have to look very far to see this, either. Now if you come from a very small family with very few uncles, aunts, and cousins, you may find this hard to believe. A few years ago I compiled a genealogy book that consists of 7 generations beginning with my great-grand parents on down and this tribe numbered 1500 persons, not counting in-laws. I learned a lot from this project. And yes, there is a generational sin common in this family. Another question that dogs me is: how can one decide whether a certain sin is generational or simply the results of having a sinful nature? The generational sin I discovered is one of a critical spirit fueled by anger which results in evil imagination. This is very commom in this family. Is there a solution? Absolutely! I received deliverance from it, and how remarkable that was! Now are there other sins common in this family? I am sure of that, your regular garden variety that need to be repented and forsaken.You will notice I did not quote any scripture to substantiate my point. I am only writing out of observation. The conclusion is that whatever sins you have in your life can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb and that blaming your ancestors for your shortcomings will not allow you to squeek through into heaven without any repentence on your part. That is the short of the long. God will not allow any excuses because he made it possible to be overcmers.This is my opinion...ginnyrose

Excellent ginnyrose!Would again appeal to "What sayeth the scriptures" and have a bit of familiarity with this 'teaching' as much as it is a fairly regular staple in many a WOF construct. It seems to be part of a very strange way of interpreting the Old Testament into the new covenant and casts all kinds of unneeded problems into the mix."Family traits" or hereditary dispositions? Think there is far too much read into this right from the get go and it can only go from bad to worse by suggestion and run away imaginings and ultimately to laying blame elsewhere.Being that a large part of this is mis-defined as a 'curse' rather than just the normal course of taking on ones surroundings, I.E. 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Surely there is one curse and one Solution, but the rest of this gets thrown all sideways by the Lord Himself;Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. It seems it is much more in the labeling and defining that goes on by some unscrupulous and sadly lacking Berean like mindsets to go along with a mans teaching rather than subjecting it all to Gods Word. I guess another big problem would be in what would they say to the adopted person? How are they going to trace that back? Another is just in this penchant to 'name' demons that have no scriptural warrant for doing so. Perhaps what is needed is a new deliverance ministry; To be delivered from laying the blame on everything other than oneself.I do realize it is not all that cut and dried here.You will notice I did not quote any scripture to substantiate my point. I am only writing out of observation. The conclusion is that whatever sins you have in your life can be overcome by the blood of the Lamb and that blaming your ancestors for your shortcomings will not allow you to squeek through into heaven without any repentence on your part. That is the short of the long. God will not allow any excuses because he made it possible to be overcmers.This is my opinion...And I share it. :-)

The spirit which makes a man homosexually orientated is a feminine spirit. The spirit which makes a woman homosexually orientated is a masculine spirit. This is not to say there were not other spirits in the mix... but, not on the matter of homosexual orientation.Scripture for this?

Sometimes you might not find scriptures for everything, because Paul didn't delve into all the aspects of every problem, if he had of then the bible would have been a much larger volume than what we have now.I am not trying to back up the claims of the subject that we are posting about, but rather just showing all of us that not everything is going to be in the scriptures as plain as day, but we must allow the holy Spirit to open our hearts and our understanding to the word and allow it to speak to us. In regards to the question asked specifically to someone else, this is absurd and dangerous. The question doesn't pertain to something in that manner, it is in going beyond scripture. Which is why we have a plethora of these type's of things in our midst.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.For the redeemed, there shouldn't be any curse on them any longer. The curse has been removed from the believer. Though we may have a family that has a history of certain sins, when we are paid for by the blood, there is no curse. We don't have to be entangled again in a yoke of bondage. We are free and paid for by our nearest kin {Christ}. The taskmasters are no longer over us. We have left Egypt and followed Christ. Old things are passed away. etc.

Timely that both of you are up here.The confusion that can be made amongst ourselves...Not in disagreement whatsoever in the general sense of things. What I was alluding to maybe could be couched in the more modern parlance; "The spirit (or demon) of____" This is what I was drawing attention to. "A feminine spirit", "the demon of alcohol", "the demon of bitterness", still waiting to hear where the "demon of blaming" is ... Sorry, don't mean to be otherwise flippant. But are these things not mere speculations? This naming of spirits and demons? Is it OK to just do these things without scriptural backing? There are ramifications here, what of the whole "spiritual mapping" business? Scriptural? Or speculative? The 'deliverance' ministries (not a wholesale indictment) how much is 'created' by suggestion rather than fact, truth? There is something rather dangerous in doing this and it lends to a rather spurious mindset. Recalling the whole exorcist phenomenon, or the 'regression' type things that is alluding me at the moment... What about the Salem Witch Trials?

Just the terminology that goes beyond and bringing in the other side of the equation. What I think I was referring to as example was the rise of 'satanism' there a few years back, when we had all kinds of 'convincing' proofs of things that could only be brought forth by certain ministers, it was eerily similar in style to the Salem Witch Trails, though without the killings. Now it comes to me; SRA (Satanic Ritual Abuse) Here's an old article on it;http://www.answers.org/satan/sralit.html

Just read through that linked article in it's entirety and it really is a good application, even to this discussion.Still disagree with the usage of 'terming' spirits and demons where there is no scriptural warrant to do so, this reasoning sounds like pragmatism and am only addressing this without bringing in all the extra examples and side issues. The reason being is that there is a whole lot of people reading these things and it is not to be overly dogmatic about it but unfortunately this is not predominantly an age of being a good Berean and as that article well points out we need to be testing ourselves and our belief's.Maybe will go ahead with some musings from earlier this morning, it's only odd in the similarities, perhaps it's just a case of "where my head is at", not that it's of any grand importance, just opinion ... One last thing to throw a big wrench in all this. Praying a couple of hours ago, dozed off (sound familiar?!) and had a most incredible dream. And as a preface haven't given this person a thought in a very long time. It was one of those where you actually 'feel' things, it's a bit difficult to unravel it all here, but pertained to an old girlfriend, nothing sinful but the cleverness of it all was something I had wanted to do a long time ago, apologize to her parents as she would get a lot of grief because of her personality. In reality, I was the one to blame and was strung out on drugs in those days. It was very 'up to date' as I expressed everything including what the Lord had done, my chagrin with a lot of what passes for Christianity in our day... Quite vivid and full of truth even the realization that I am a married man, quite a bit more, some real heart tugging matters. When I awoke it was deeply troubling on a number of levels. Why? What does it mean? Does it mean anything? Frankly, what I would be more inclined to believe is that it was a very clever and subtle attack. It was full of love and good things, forgiveness (forgot to mention that, I had asked for forgiveness in the dream) truth, honesty, what more could one ask for? Except this, what was left of it to the natural and that being a temptation, a certain 'wishfulness' implied due to present circumstances. What evidence do I have other than a subjective reasoning? Well, only that this is not the first time that these sort of things have happened while praying (that is neither here nor there) but it does lend credence to what was said in 2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.But again, would I want to put a label on it? Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.

{Quote} GaryEGal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.For the redeemed, there shouldn't be any curse on them any longer. The curse has been removed from the believer. Though we may have a family that has a history of certain sins, when we are paid for by the blood, there is no curse. We don't have to be entangled again in a yoke of bondage. We are free and paid for by our nearest kin {Christ}. The taskmasters are no longer over us. We have left Egypt and followed Christ. Old things are passed away. etc.…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………Sister Dorcas,Yes, I totally agree that many people who are Christians are still in need of deliverance.For someone to be delivered, they must know that Christ has set, is setting, and wants to set them free of bondage. This is not just knowing the above quoted truths with the mind, it is a heart thing. It is important to have the revelation that they are free. It becomes established within them that they are free to the place where they speak it. I’m not saying that to speak it makes them free, but when a person is delivered he or she is able to state it as fact because it is established in their heart to be fact. In truth they can say; I’m free. There is no doubt when they say this.The above verse, Gal. 3:13 is a fact. When the person has received this fact in their heart not their heads, they are free. There is no generational curse on any person who has the truth of this fact established in their heart.In Christ,GaryE…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………What is really needed today are true operations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that people can hear the truth of the Word and know they are free.

Hey GaryE,A while back on the last day of a biblestudy series, I've seen a woman who's throat was 'closed' when she tried to adress the sins which ran in her family to God.It was a pretty scary sight, she was coughing and could barely breathe. The speaker prayed (partially in tongues) and told the 'demon?' to go, she shouted 'no' at first but a bit later after some more praying and commanding 'it' in Jesus name to go she could breathe again and could address the sins which ran in her family.How would you explain the above?Have you ever experienced such a thing?I found this strange as I experienced God freeing me from any chains when I really started following Him.

i dont know very much about generational curses, but this is something that i have wondered too. the verse that convinced me that they do exist is in Exodus 34:6-7. Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. As for weather they are still there when you are born again, im not very sure, im seeking that myself. I think that just like any sin, it must first be recognized, confessed, and renounced in order to have deliverance. This is just an opinion though! hope it helps. :-)

Dear Warrior4Jah,I've heard a lot of stories from people I know who have been around demons being cast out. Different people have told me of unusual voices coming out of people that were being prayed for. One man told me that the group he was with was praying for a lady who was demon possessed and she picked up a chair and swung it around and hit people. I've also heard that sometimes people who have had a demon cast out of them don't remember any of the things that had happened in the meeting. No, I have never been anywhere these kinds of things were going on.Different times I have been around people that I thought might be demon possessed. I've spoken to some of these people and said, "devil in the name of Jesus, let this person go." As far as I know though, I have never been used by God to actually cast out a demon. There is a difference between thinking you may be dealing with a demon or actually knowing that you are and the demon being cast out.As far as generational curses, I do not accept the teaching of it, at least not in the way it has been presented to me. It is a fact though that there are families who have sins in them that carry over from one generation to another. I was adopted and have a son. Between my birth mother, myself, and my son, I can see there has been the same struggle with sexual sin. The teaching that says that my natural mothers sins or her ancestors sins are sins that I need to confess is not correct though. I am responsible for the sins of my own life. As the lot fell on Achan, it fell on me. It is my sins that I confess, not the sins of my ancestors. Once my sin is confessed the curse is broken. Let Achan admit his sins and be put to death and in the very next verse, Joshua 8:1 there is victory. My position with this is that when I repented and confessed my sins, the curse was removed from my life. So, as long as I don't let the curse back in my life through sin it is taken care of. The curse was removed by confessing my own sins and not confessing the sins of others.When people who have been violated by incest consider the teaching of generational curses there is sometimes a confusion by the victim. It is very likely the victim is not guilty at all yet feels guilty. If there are personal sins, the victim needs to be confess them, however, the victim is not responcible for sins of the molestor.In Christ,GaryE

Dear Loveslave,A Christian who is born again and has received the Holy Spirit, is not in a place where they will never be tempted again. David's adultery happened to a man of God. We are warned that we are to beware of an adversary who is a raving and roaring lion,.... seeking whom he may devour.The Christians warfare seems to go on at two fronts. There is warfare involved with our personal lives and dealing with our own temptations and there is warfare having to do with the commission that that God has sent us into when he said, "Go into the world and teach all nations." They are both tied together but, at the moment, we are discussing the personal warfare of a believer in dealing with temptations.2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;) 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;When we put on the whole armor of God and are strong in the Lord and the power of his might, we are able to do battle against our imaginations and thought life. The feelings, desires, and temptations that you mention are what we are doing battle against.When someone is tempted with any kind of sin, it does not mean that they aren't a Christian and it does't mean they have sinned......Christ was tempted.In Christ,GaryE

Gary,Look up the scriptures on "familiar" spirits. The word familiar comes from the word familiaris which literally means,"of a household".

My words previously:"Still disagree with the usage of 'terming' spirits and demons where there is no scriptural warrant to do so, this reasoning sounds like pragmatism and am only addressing this without bringing in all the extra examples and side issues."Perhaps you will never have to know what is troubling a soul, by name, but, I reiterate that at the very least, the person troubled has to know, and it can be very helpful for the other person praying with them, also to know. I hope the sheer practicality of this statement is obvious.Practical as in pragmatic? Practical as in "It's O.K. because this has been 'revealed' to you? Practical because it 'helps' someone? This largely missing the point. Does it matter or does it not that there is a presumption without any scriptural backing being taken as fact? You made a statement not a possibility, not a " may be";The spirit which makes a man homosexually orientated is a feminine spirit. The spirit which makes a woman homosexually orientated is a masculine spirit. This is not to say there were not other spirits in the mix... but, not on the matter of homosexual orientation.I regress on what I stated earlier. This needs to be dogmatic. This is overshooting the scriptures and what is the difference between you stating such and any of the other spurious things being taken as "gospel" in our day? Is the Book closed or subject to our particular 'insights' as upgrades? Where does it end? Where do the cults get off track but by 'extra revelation'? The problem often in attempting to address something like this specifically is the want to dissolve it into other "buts" or associations that really are missing the whole point. The irony in the usage of the Screwtape analogy is that wasn't being stated as fact, as this seems to imply.The reason for bringing the other link in was as an example of where this type of mindset can lead and nothing more.I know you've raised this question in other threads, and I realize you're trying to address the over-spiritualisation of difficulties that some people may face and the ignorant and loose use of unhelpful language, by those who are not mature in the faith, or, who have never had to help someone who is in bondage to a spirit. (As LS said, discernment is needed..... this is a spiritual gift, which some people seem to receive early in their walk with God, and to others it comes more lately, as part of the multiplication of their gifts, as they exercise that which they first received - in my case, 'faith'.)Which one?Am really attempting to just narrow the focus strictly on this issue. It is of great importance and there are any number of eye's looking into these things. We are supposed to be of the Truth, shall we just let these things slide because ...? What is the difference between this and Joseph Smiths 'revelations' when it comes right down to it? A Benny Hinn casting out demons by category, 'type', the spirit of arthritis or the spirit of arachnophobia, the demon of halitosis? It's actually not funny at all. What does a bible believing Christian do when they are to happen upon something like this? What should be the normal response? Would it not be "I don't recall this from scripture"?Not particularly angry but I am concerned about this and not because of 'over-spiritualisation', it's just not there and you have not brought forth anything to convince otherwise. It's dangerous and it would be wrong to not address it.

Please tell me, now, whether you are beginning to catch my drift? I am happy to explain further, but you asked for scripture, so I've started there.Yes, but as was mentioned before this is all besides the point. The same address still stands and the key word being...IS Ipso facto And it is just not there, no matter how you want to try and arrange the 'possibilities'. It goes right back to the same mention before of the difficulty in trying to focus directly on the statement made and that alone before going off on to all these related matters. The problem is they do not support the foundational statement. It is pragmatic still. Would love to hear somebody else's thoughts on this. I just still sense a danger that is being slighted to get on with an opinion.And you have done a great deal of defending but have totally ignored the questions asked earlier.With certainty the same verse came to mind earlier;1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: To another discerning of spirits; by which gift such that were possessed of it could, in some measure, discern the hearts of men, their thoughts, purposes, and designs, their secret dissimulation and hypocrisy; as Peter, by this gift, discerned the dissimulation and lying of Ananias and Sapphira; and by it they could also tell whether a man that made a profession of religion had the truth of grace in him, or not; so Peter knew hereby that Simon Magus was in the gall of bitterness, and bond of iniquity, notwithstanding his specious pretences to faith and holiness, whereby he imposed upon Philip the evangelist, who might not have this gift of discerning spirits; by which also they could distinguish the Spirit of God from the lying spirits in men; of which there is an instance, Act_15:17. Gilldiscerning of spirits--discerning between the operation of God's Spirit, and the evil spirit, or unaided human spirit (1Co_14:29; compare 1Ti_4:1; 1Jo_4:1).(All these verses here come to bear just as well.)JFBEdit: Forgot this...Here Jesus NAMES the spirit He is casting out. Taking note of one very important aspect of that, will emphesise it;"Here JESUS NAMES the spirit He is casting out."

brethreni'm unsure that this would be counted as a generational sin but this is something i feel led of the Lord to share. in Africa where i'm from, there is a traditional belief in the ancestral spirits which must be appeased from time to time by sacrifice, ceremony and so on. These spirits are demons and this appeasing gives the devils access to members of that person's family until someone rises up and breaks this curse by some means. often it is the appeasing of another such spirit and the cycle begins again. it always results on some form of demonic possession or the deaths of family members as some of these demons require blood sacrifices. These are not offered on an altar in most cases (though that does happen) it's a most complex situation and most westerners don't believe in it because most westerners are not as aware of the spirit world as Africans are. Africans are more primal and westerners more sophisticated and closed to that sort of thing. As one who are experienced such activity i can attest to it's reality. that being said the Lord (even after i was saved) has not shielded me from some things which came into my family as a result of the folly of my anceestors. He has used some things to buffet me and keep me from spiritual pride and others He has called me to rise up and enter spiritual warfare to see them destroyed. although it seems a hard thing to reconcile, we are saved and yet not exempt from such spiritual assault untill the Father says enough becuase even these things serve His purposes in our lives. may the Lord quicken us to the enemy's strongholds and dominions that we may rise up against them as the Lord leads.AMEN

sis DorcasOr, people who have lived in Africa (as I did as a child, in the area which Mary Slessor evangelised), or elsewhere that similar practices take place.indeed, i'd neglected a whole bunch of people there! it is amazing how even now such practices are very much revered and it is indeed hard to grasp lest one has experienced it. i think however we all have been affected by such things and have attributed it to something else. Praise the Lord that His word is such that it effects the pulling down of such strongholds and there are indeed many to tear down.

I hope this helps the discussion,In Nairobi, Kenya where I come from it's fair to say that many in charismatic circles are so obsessed with deliverance, it's like it's a second sanctification.Though may will never accept that this is what they're doing, it seems to them the blood of Christ isn't enough; there is a prayer formula, a whole list of renunciations (and if you've renounced before, play it safe renouce again)..., a man of God who should pray..., a series of deliverance classes, an emphasis on visible or lust-related acts of the flesh....I'm not saying that God doesn't use men, and by no means do I have a monopoly in understanding how God works. But to me it's so ritualistic, so not New Testament.I'm not speaking for the entire continent, only the prevailing culture in many churches in our city, as well as stories I've heard from other places.Yes there is witchcraft, but there isn't a corresponding confidence in Christ's redemptive power, or in what the New Testament says about the new birth.In discussions outside church settings, any questions about the New Testament validity of a questionable practice may easily be brushed away with:"There are levels of spirituality""These things are spiritually discerned".No doubt, we see as through a veil. But how safe is spiritual insight if it isn't supported by the Scriptures?I agree with Mike that if we stray from Scripture, there are no more boundaries, we then have to depend on the latest 'insight' or revelation.

Will beg off this here shortly...IF you see that a spirit can cause a person to be deaf, dumb or blind, what is the difficulty in accepting the spiritual aspect of homosexuality, which I have shown clearly is laid out in scripture, as part of idol worship. (In reality, the idol can be the person's own body, or part of it, or, a certian buzz - addiction by any other name.) Again, you are addressing something other than the statement you made by way of attempting to support it's validity. It is to leave out much in where this kind of thing can lead, the ramifications and also that you are painting yourself into a corner here.I don't mind your complaint that no-where in scripture names every fallen angel personally, but, I am sorry you feel so free to dis my testimony.Wrong. Absolutely wrong. It is not personal.I also acknowledge your bad experience with WOF, but, that doesn't mean God has stopped speaking to believers, or, revealing to them how to lay hold on Him for deliverance.... by which I mean, real bondages being broken by the real word of God to break those bondages. It certainly does not and again this off track. The problematic areas where these kinds of things can lead seem to be of no concern. It is your experience that you want to elevate to be equal with scripture in a nutshell, that somehow there is to be no challenge to submitting our experience to what God has already spoken. It is very much a bane to this age. We have people speaking all kinds of their experience's as fact and there is some kind of strange fear about being good Bereans anymore.The redundant point of all of this is to but nip it in the bud, here. What are new beleivers to think when someone makes a statement, not a musing or even a possibility, which isn't really all that much better frankly, like this? Again, where does it end?Unless a person BELIEVES the word God speaks to him or her, it IS going to be FRUITLESS. Faith is an essential component, and I wouldn't expect you to believe something purely on my say so, but, if the Lord confirms to your understanding that I'm telling truth, I hope you would accept it from Him.... yikes,Mike, if you think I owe you an apology, I'm sorry. This isn't about me, what about the people peering into these things? What about the ramifications...?Of course I acknowledge that nowhere does scripture say there is such a thing as a masculine or a feminine spirit, except in the Hebrew, where one of the names for God means 'father/mother'. Ah, at last! If you had left off the exception...But if this is true, then why state it as such as you did?That was the whole point...All along.

There is a sermon by Paul Ravenhill that hopefully will be on this site to download about this topic. He does deal with generational curses on this message. I think its powerful and biblical.At pastor school they taught about generational curses and the evidence thereof....but I'll wait for the sermon. He says it much better than I ever could.

theres good points on both sides with this line of thinking.i had in a cell group i was in a few years back in worship there was a young man & i saw a spirit standing next to him,with (spirtual eyes, eyes of my heart)gift of discernment, it had the word depression over its head, then we finished worship & had our study.we opened it up for people who wanted prayer & this young man said i have been very depressed this whole week, now my question is how do i relate that to the word & spirit, it brings up other issues, was i decieved, how do i repond to this is that also how people see the gift of discernment? at that time i never understood what was going on, i do believe i know now how & what i would do in this situation again

dorcas' IF you see that a spirit can cause a person to be deaf, dumb or blind, what is the difficulty in accepting the spiritual aspect of homosexuality, which I have shown clearly is laid out in scripture, as part of idol worship. (In reality, the idol can be the person's own body, or part of it, or, a certian buzz - addiction by any other name.) Others (than homosexuals) can be troubled with spirits who have a distinct gender bias, or, who are sexually unclean in some way. These are facts of spiritual reality. I kid you not. Christians are not nearly sanguine enough around this kind of information and I don't blame you for wanting to keep it at arm's length, but, what help is that to the bound? By the way, I don't see myself as having a deliverance 'ministry', but, as they say, 'possession is nine tenths of the law', and the same goes for spiritual matters, in which understanding can go a long way to assist sanity. Having said all that, the Holy Spirit is given to those who ask, and to those who obey God. Herein is the authority to cast out devils, or, to break their hold over a life.I do think it is inappropriate for these things to be discussed in these columns. I think it is particularly inappropriate for a woman to be teaching such things and I generally try to keep away from the controversy both of these topics, demonology and women's ministry, but there are times when I just have to put in my few pence worth. The approximatisation of 'knowledge' with 'deliverance' is a dangerous line which is why I think it wrong for the topic to have found the public domain. In few areas is it so true that a 'little learning is a dangerous things'. To equate the 'sickness' of deafness, dumbness, and blindness with the 'sin' of homesexual behaviour is also a dangerous line which can result in people waiting for deliverance who ought to be getting on with repentance.The notion that some 'spirits have a distinct gender bias' is sheer speculation and unwarranted by anything that I am aware of in the scripture. Stories quickly build into a kind of Christian (or more usually charismatic) version of the urban legend. They must be true because everyone says so. Personally, I do not subscribe to the view that 100,000 lemmings cannot be wrong. One of the main reasons that God has given us the scriptures is that through them a "the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." To build pattern of counsel and help on personal or hearsay experience is a dangerous precedent.

In Acts, there is recorderd the incedent of a woman who had a "spirit of divination" who followed the Apostles around saying, "These men preach a way of salvation."The record is that Paul was deeply distressed in spirit and provoked. But this went on for 4 days. Eventually Paul, addressed the spirit in union with and in the Authority of the risen Lord and cast it out of her.The implications here is that the Apostles were not "demon conscious" but rather "Christ conscious" They did not have a "deliverance ministry". There were no 'specialist". But when the occasion arose and the work of God was being threatened, Paul addressed the spirit.I believe the work of the "unseen hosts" is more prevalent than we imagine. And until we enter into a "life in the spirit" and begin to know Christ inwardly and Live by Him we are not so aware.But we need the maturity of Life to be able to dicern and deal with God's enemy and his hosts. The Apostles were not advancers of sensationalism and displays of "power" but rather ministered the crucified and resurrected Christ as Eternal Life.Graftedbranch

Acts 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.LS - Aye, be careful, as such a verse might just as quickly prove a rebuke as a correction. It might also be used as an excuse (of which I have witnessed the butt-end.)I must say, I have witnessed some things in the spiritual world. I have seen healings through the laying on of hands and prayer. I have seen things happen aside those same events. I unfortunately bore witness to an attack against someone amidst their baptism. And I, too, have been subject to the teachings and the shortcomings of my own flesh's father. All this to say never once have I ever come to the conclusion that a demon was only ever capable of one disturbance.Once, in the example of Legion, we know exactly the name which a demon might go by.Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.But even here, there is grounds for debate because the demon stated the aspect of multiples - a legion of course being the remarkable Roman infantry unit made up of so many men.Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. So as such they were a legion as much were legion.In such instances as these, I wish I had a Greek text that I could read.Mar 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. So in our english language, dumb and deaf are modifiers - adjectives, not nouns. The phrasing used in the KJV, ASV, ESV, GNB, the Message... aye, all use those words as adjectives. Nouns by nature are names which then describe, and the viewpoint in question is assigning names by proxy and not by language usage. The same phrasing might just as well be understood as "spirit of deafness and dumbness." The key word still is spirit. Why would Jesus address it as spirit if it had a proper name unless it was beneficial not to do so?I think what Mike is saying is that we need to be careful about assigning names, not in the recognition of what is happening. One implies doctrine and the other is a biblical aspect of actual occurance. The implication of doctrine is seriously pushing the envelope, which then gets into the whole lemming thing Ron was talking about. I have been a "lemming," but I have to agree with Mike.

LSThink you have a typo there.

loveslave's What are you afraid of, there is nothing bad going on in this thread, this is a real subject and it's taught in the real world.What I am afraid of is the creating of a doctrine which claims to have biblical authority but has none. I am afraid of the trend where people create methodologies from personal experiences and then proclaim them as biblical teaching.I have had more experience with demonic activity that I choose to share here and have seen genuine deliverances of many kinds but I distinguish between 'on the spot' discernment and the plethora of pseudo biblical teaching which surrounds this topic.

Graftedbranche'sThe record is that Paul was deeply distressed in spirit and provoked. But this went on for 4 days. Eventually Paul, addressed the spirit in union with and in the Authority of the risen Lord and cast it out of her.The implications here is that the Apostles were not "demon conscious" but rather "Christ conscious" They did not have a "deliverance ministry". There were no 'specialist". But when the occasion arose and the work of God was being threatened, Paul addressed the spirit.If we examine this passage carefully we see no hint that "Paul was deeply distressed and provoked... for four days". “The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.” (Acts 16:17-18, KJVS) The phrase 'many days' in the Acts usually means much more than '4 days'. In fact, the Greek tenses here provide a clear insight into what took place. Verse 18 puts the woman's behaviour into the Imperfect tense which means it was a continuing process during those 'many days'. but when it speaks of Paul's action it switches to the Aorist tense which indicates a specific 'one-off' action at that point of time.These tenses give a very clear description of events as they transpired. The behaviour of the woman continued for many days; I would guess no less than a week. After that time Paul 'became grieved'. It seems most likely that this is when 'discernment' was given to him as to the nature of these interruptions; their source was demonic. He immediately took authority and expelled the demon. This scenario shows clearly that Paul was not working to any diagnostic 'rules of thumb' but was 'helpless' until God gave discernment. As soon as he had the discernment, the issue was resolved "that same hour".My plea in these recent post is for genuine dependence upon a God given impartation 'discerning of spirits' which has 'built in' authority to do something about the situation. The notion that we can use manuals or another's experience is dangerous, and the deed is only slightly less dangerous than the doctrine.If Paul had to 'hold fire' until he was given specific discernment it should provide a sobering caution to any 'learned methods'.

formidable's at that time i never understood what was going on, i do believe i know now how & what i would do in this situation againPlease accept this in the spirit in which it is written. You do not know what you would do in this situation again, and to think so is the danger I am trying to point out in these posts. We never know 'what to do' in demonic encounters, we have to be given 'on the spot' discernment.

i do accept the Spirit in what you have written, i see where your coming from.though this was over 5 years ago & i have had since then more as you termed it (on the spot)encounters.i agree with your post my wisdom isnt in myself its in the power & might of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ,my own background, i use to be in church or cell group or meet a person. then see certain things over there life or i would see an actual demonic spirit.i didnt realise for years that i was actually operating in the gift of discernment. so i agree, what i wanted to know is how does that fit in with peoples views of the Word & Spirit, also there are things that happen that arent in the Word, i dont want to be a pragmatist but obedient to the calling on my life.