End of the Spear

The long-awaited movie about Jim Elliot and friends, missionaries who died for the gospel is almost here. Check out the official website: http://www.endofthespear.com

Hi Taka!Good to see you back brother! There is a couple of other posts here in this regard, definitely looking forward to it.to every TRIBE, TONGUE & NATIONWhat Do You Live For? E.ElliotThere is a few more as well, these being the most recent. Try a search on the title "End of the Spear".

Thanks for the references. I read Through Gates of Splendor as well as Jim Elliot's journals years ago. I can't wait to see this movie!

I was very disappointed when I read this: While some Christians are raising objections over the casting of actor and homosexual activist Chad Allen to play Christian characters in the soon-to-be released movie End of the Spear, producers of the fact-based theatrical film approved the homosexual actor's selection for the part -- one of them even daring to consider the possibility that God may have been behind it.It appeared on:http://headlines.agapepress.org/users/AFO/afo2.aspWhy do they spoil something like this by using a homo actor? Are good actors in such short supply? ginnyrose

Gasp! And I wonder about the one's that might have been liars or gossipers being recruited to act in this movie as well?

Hi ginnyrose...!I was very disappointed when I read this: While some Christians are raising objections over the casting of actor and homosexual activist Chad Allen to play Christian characters in the soon-to-be released movie End of the Spear, producers of the fact-based theatrical film approved the homosexual actor's selection for the part -- one of them even daring to consider the possibility that God may have been behind it.I agree. I really enjoyed the film Chariots of Fire, the story of a missionary named Eric Liddle (who was martyred in China during World War II). Eric Liddle was a devout believer, and the film fairly portrays his struggle between running in the Olympics and his faith. However, I was saddened to learn that the actor who portrayed Liddle was openly gay -- and later died of AIDS. I still enjoy watching the film. But every time I watch it, I am reminded of this situtation.However, I still plan on attending a screening of End of the Spear. I rejoice that the story of Jim Eliot and the other missionaries is being told. :-(

I am planning on seeing the movie tonight with our small group. Yes, I was disappointed to learn about the actor being gay, but we still plan on seeing it.Here is an email sent out to everyone at our church from our Pastor about the fact that one of the actors is a homosexual.Jimmy, your point is well taken by me. Homosexual, adulterer, liar, gossiper, idolater. Is one worse than another? Who watches sports while many of the players are known idolaters, adulterers, liars, prideful, etc... Who visits restaurants who might be owned by a gay person (maybe the whole chain of restaurants is owned by a gay person). Would you stop going to McDonalds if you knew that a gay person owned the the franchise?Another important point to remember is that yes, the actor who played Eric Liddel in Chariots of Fire was also gay.---------------Dear Grace Family,Now that the movie End of the Spear is about to open tomorrow I have received several emails from people asking what I think we should do about the fact that the role of Nate Saint (one of the 5 martyred missionaries) is being played in the movie by Chad Allen, an outspoken homosexual.So let me speak to our whole church family as I answer this question - I still think going to the movie is the best thing to do. Chad Allen is an actor – that’s his job. If he was trying to portray Nate Saint as a homosexual then I would be against the movie… but that’s not the case. A homosexual director did not write the script. This is not another example of Hollywood hijacking a great story and twisting it to promote a political agenda like homosexuality. So often Hollywood takes a great story (like the life of Christ!) and twists it and perverts the actual details to the point that it no longer even follows the truth of what the Bible tells us about Christ (such was the case in The Last Temptation of Christ by Martin Scorcese). Those are the kinds of movies that we want to speak out against – and refuse to spend our $8 ticket price helping them fund such garbage. But that’s not what is being done in the movie The End of the Spear. Chad Allen plays the part of Nate Saint well and happens to be a homosexual in his personal life. Are we going to boycott every place of business where a homosexual works? Think how many places we probably frequent as Christians where homosexuals are working or even perhaps are the owners. My shopping there doesn’t mean I support homosexuality. And remember - homosexuals should be allowed to work jobs and make an income. My goal is life is not to punish every homosexual. How Christians do you know that stop frequenting a place of business because someone working there or owning it is an adulterer, huh?What I think is really sad is how most Christians today go out and see lots of movies with far raunchier and racier themes than this – and yet now they want to make a stink over finding out that one of the actors in this movie is a homosexual. How hypocritical! I want to ask those Christians if they carefully check to see if there’s any homosexuals in any other movies before they go to see them. I doubt it. Also – in my mind, as long as Chad Allen is willing to play the part and follow the script he was given by a Christian director, imagine the impact it could have on his own life by studying and learning more about Nate Saint. Most actors work hard to understand their character before they step into the role. I imagine Chad Allen has been reading about Nate Saint… perhaps even read “Through Gates of Splendor” or some of the other accounts of their deaths in preparation for this role. God could use his involvement in this movie to show him for the first time what real Christians look like! – people who are willing to give their lives for people who reject what they believe and have to offer. That’s probably not what Chad Allen has seen from Christians here in America. This could be a means of grace where seeds of truth get powerfully planted in his life. But if we’re not careful, this whole “Oh my goodness Chad Allen is a homosexual so I’m not going to see this Christian movie” will be the main thing he remembers from this whole project. Wouldn’t that be sad! I assure you he has probably already heard from Christian groups blasting him for being a homosexual – and he’s probably heard from radical homosexual groups blasting him for having anything to do with this Christian movie, since it doesn’t make fun of Christianity but presents it in a positive light.Let’s not fall into either one of those camps. Let’s be radically different… and I think it would be closer to what God calls us to do. Here’s my suggestion! Instead of boycotting the movie because a homosexual named Chad Allen plays one of the lead roles, why not commit to praying for Chad Allen every week for this entire year – asking God to haunt him with the love and grace he saw in this story of sacrificial love? Let’s put Chad Allen in our prayer journals and beg God to never let him get over what he saw and learned about the life of Nate Saint and the others. And then – let’s pray that God will actually put real, live Christians in his path today that remind him of the Nate Saint that he played in the movie. Wouldn’t that be a better approach? And don’t you think that’s more like what Jesus would do? Jesus hung out with the prostitutes… the tax collectors… and the drunkards – and was criticized for it. If I’m going to be criticized over this then let it be said that I was too soft on Chad Allen. I’m going to err to the side of grace – and pray that God’s love and grace will break through into the life of Chad Allen.A couple people have sent me articles written by Christians that are calling us all to refuse to see the movie because Chad Allen is in it. While I can’t see their hearts – and I assume they love God and mean well – I think it’s absolutely wrong and very unfortunate that some Christians are more focused on punishing Chad Allen for being a homosexual than they are in supporting a movie that finally communicates a great message about 5 men who gave their lives for the cause of Christ. I think it’s another example of Christians who have lost sight of the cross – and are no longer keeping the main thing, the main thing. Evaluate it this way: Is the Gospel being shown in this movie? Yes! Is sacrifice for the cause of Christ being shown in this movie? Yes! Is the radical example of forgiving your enemies because of how much Christ has forgiven us being shown in this movie? Yes! Does the movie twist the facts of this great story and try to make us think any of these 5 missionaries were homosexual? No!Then let’s go see it, to the glory of God… and encourage your neighbors and co-workers to do the same. Let’s show Hollywood that, yes, people will spend money to see a movie that portrays real heroes that are worth emulating.Here’s our chance to show the world the message of sacrificial love that flows from the cross… not one more Christian boycott and protest.I invite you to join me in keeping the main thing the main thing.Because of Him,Brad________________

I am saddened to read this "announcement' - and on two posts no less! Of course it is always sad to discover that someone is a sinner. (Why are we so shocked?) But I would have preferred to enjoy the movie without my mind having to be defiled and obsessed with this information that is of no help to me or anyone. Just think, if the dirty laundry was never aired out for all to see, we would not be feeding into the endless hostilities between two opposing parties. God has never been opposed to spreading the knowlege of his name through sinners. And who knows, what sinners may find him? Thank you, Pastor Brad for your circulated letter. May it travel far and wide! Diane

I wont post anymore on this subject as it seems my thoughts on this are falling on deaf ears.People always read your posts (along with everyone elses).It's not on deaf ears. Even if there isn't a reply.

To say that homosexuality is no worse than lying or pride is to misunderstand how serious God is about homosexuality. God did not destroy Sodom & Gommorah because they were gossiping about each other.Ezekiel 16: 49-50"Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, plenty of food, and comfortable security, but didn't support the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before Me, so I removed them when I saw [this]"Living a gay lifestyle is a result of pride. Idolatry and pride. Living in rebellion in any area of our lives is idolatry and pride as well. Just thoughts here.....

First of all, Chad Allen believes that this film will help bring the gay community and Christians together.An interview with InLA magazine perhaps shows Allen’s true heart when it comes to his acting in a movie about evangelical missionaries. I provide the quote exactly as it appears in the interview. “Allen also stars in the upcoming film End of the Spears, based on the true story of a group of Christian missionaries that make contact with the Waodani, a notoriously violent Ecuadorian tribe. Having grown up in a Roman Catholic family, Allen saw this project as a challenge he wanted to undertake. "There were a lot of people on both sides that weren't particularly interested in me doing this movie. I am from a Christian background, but I have a personal spirituality that spans the distance from Buddhism to Hindu philosophy to Native American beliefs. That aside, this movie is about the power of love. I knew it was an opportunity to bridge these two disparate communities that are believed to be enemies- the gay and the Christian communities."13

Krispy,How do know if any of the other people aren't living in unrepentant, selfish ambition, and simply don't care? Perhaps they glory in it. Such is surely a common sin in the lives of many actors. For that matter, many actors are unregenerate altogether. Do we refuse to watch movies of people who are unregenerate, even if the content of the movie is fine? What people have to be saved or unsaved to make watching the movie ok? Just the leading people? What about the extras? What about the director? What about the stage hands and people that made the props? My point is, where does one draw the line? Please show scripture on where this line is drawn.

People always read your posts (along with everyone elses).It's not on deaf ears. Even if there isn't a reply. Well said brother and a good reminder to everyone here. Never thought I would see such a lax attitude about this on this website. I'm somewhat dismayed.Krispy, always good to hear from you brother. Have been struggling to get a rather redundant thought across here that keeps coming up in many postings... It may be in part expressed in the header here;Holding two simultanious thoughts in tensionTo agree in part is not necessarly to agree in whole. It is not to give allegiance nor support to one side exclusively over the other. The bi-partisnship of politics is equally prevelant amongst Gods people and keep finding it a rather peculiar thing. I didn't know this until just today, this particular issue and would also wonder perhaps at the rationale behind the decision in the first place. We could speculate till the cows come home but we do not have all the facts and even if we did ... Now what? It's done, it's out there. Yes, you have some valid points, no it doesn't make any of this particularly 'right', yes I would agree that it would have possibly made this better maybe not to have know this before hand, going in to it... But, with this excerpt from Chanin's post being kept in mind;Let’s not fall into either one of those camps. Let’s be radically different… and I think it would be closer to what God calls us to do. Here’s my suggestion! Instead of boycotting the movie because a homosexual named Chad Allen plays one of the lead roles, why not commit to praying for Chad Allen every week for this entire year – asking God to haunt him with the love and grace he saw in this story of sacrificial love? Let’s put Chad Allen in our prayer journals and beg God to never let him get over what he saw and learned about the life of Nate Saint and the others. And then – let’s pray that God will actually put real, live Christians in his path today that remind him of the Nate Saint that he played in the movie. Wouldn’t that be a better approach? And don’t you think that’s more like what Jesus would do? Jesus hung out with the prostitutes… the tax collectors… and the drunkards – and was criticized for it. If I’m going to be criticized over this then let it be said that I was too soft on Chad Allen. I’m going to err to the side of grace – and pray that God’s love and grace will break through into the life of Chad Allen.Actually, disagree with him in a way at the end there. The reality of praying what he stated earlier, asking God to haunt him with the love and grace he saw in this story of sacrificial love? is in no way being soft, that same love and grace will truly cost one a heart broken by conviction and then to repentance if it is effectual.

Wow... In the time it took to type out a reply all these other accompaning threads came in. Will read them all and just wanted to make a clarification here. Still think we ought to pray regardless... But a bit more than I was aware of.And one last thought. There is hardly anything left that will offend me personaly, but it gets really strained to hear the accusations leveled at "This website".Keep in mind that if you are posting here you are indicting yourself as well, not to mention the curious way that is forgotten that this has been freely presented to air out ones opinions in the first place. Now the question remains, to be a part of the problem or the solution?

Krispy said, Never thought I would see such a lax attitude about this on this website.I'm a bit confused. Has anyone here said that homosexuality was not a sin or was merely a minor sin?Wasn't Jesus considered lax by some in his day - he even ate with the worst of sinners? What did eating symbolize in his day? any different than going to a movie done by sinners? Maybe it would help if you explain what you mean by "lax"? Another thought just popped in my mind: Pehaps the difference is not what one believes is sin, but what one believes is the correct response to it.Diane

We need to turn around, we are a generation like Sodom, we as lights in this city who are hearing the Angels to come out, but we linger because Sodom offers so much security, "christian" movies, entertainment,Loveslave, There is one fundimental truth that I suspect you are trying to expose, and it is this: Whose sin are we to be concerned with? Is it not our own sins? the condition of our own heart? I will never forget one day when I was in Amsterdam and inadvertently wandered into the Red Light District while looking for The Reformed Church. Afterwards, I felt that I needed to spend time with the Lord to get cleaned up from all the vile evil I encountered there. When I got back to the hotel, the Lord clearly told me that it was MY sins that I needed cleaning from , not theirs. Their sins were not my sins. Then the Lord proceeded to show me my hypocrisy - thinking that I was so much better than them, more concerned about myself - wanting mostly to keep MYself clean and shiny. God revealed to me that he loved those prostitutes, and he gave me a burden for them. I did not go there aiming to "sight see", but God used my experience to draw me to himself. ----Well, the movie is coming, and I do not put it beyond God to use the film. After all he blessed Israel through wicked Balaam. God is shrewd. I've even seen him use bad movies to awaken people to their need for him. Diane

Great Christian leaders from the past, like Finney, and Moody, had serious reservations about the spiritual condition of "Christians" who went to the theater. This discussion here can only prove how far "Christianity", or those involved in it, have fallen. It truly must grieve the Fathers heart to see how much people are willing to compromise to do what they want (see this movie). Go ahead and see the movie, just don't expect to see me there..We will all account for our choices, we need to be more prayerful about the ones we make.. LOL Greg :-o

Now when will you allow a practicing homo into your pulpit?Is this film a ministry? Or is it entertainment? Do you send your children to schools where the teachers are openly homos? Why and why not? Jesus ate with sinners but we never read where Jesus or the disciples engaged homos to entertain them with the gospel story...Are people not being loose on this because of the story it purports to portray? I would guess these martyrs would turn over in their grave if they would know what is being done in honor of their sacrifice.....ginnyrose

KrispyKrittr wrote:KJ... I cant believe you dont see the real issue here. There is a big difference between people who have faults and sin in their lives (which would include myself)... and someone who actively promotes and encourages a lifestyle that is in total defiance of God.KrispyI believe Krispy here is trying to communicate (correct me if I am wrong here Krispy) is a person that is going to communicate the gospel should be a man of God, not someone that is openly unrighteous.We as God's children should not even allow unsaved people to minister the word of God, no matter how good they are. Ezekiel 44:7-9 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves. 9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.After someone told me that Chad appeared on the cover of the gay and lesbian magazine The Advocate, we just felt, 'Hey, he's still the best actor.1 Corinthians 1:21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,... ch 2:4,5 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.This is not the wisdom of God but has its being in the wisdom of this world.I agree with Krispy, We as the body of Christ should not allow openly unrighteous people to minister what is Holy.I cant believe you dont see the real issue here.There is a fundamental problem with the whole argument at hand. (About if a openly gay actor should play in a religious movie or not) By God's grace I will try to set forth this problem.Are we jealous for God's glory? Are we looking for Apostolicity in the church?A.W. Tozer"If God has given wisdom to see the error of religious shows we owe it to the Church to oppose them openly. We dare not take refuge in "guilty silence." Error is not silent; it is highly vocal and amazingly aggressive. We dare not be less so."

ginnyrose wrote:Is this film a ministry? Or is it entertainment?Hereis the companies mission: "Our Mission To create quality entertainment for a broad audience that inspires hope through truth."It is entertainment.Do we here that frequent SI understand that when you go to see a movie you are disobeying the Spirit that burns in the heart of most of the preachers on SI?Here are some that I have heard cry out not to watch:A.W. TozerArt KatzDavid WilkersonDuncan Campbell Keith DanielLeonard RavenhillEzekiel 44:23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.Ezekiel 22:26Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.A.W. Tozer wrote an article called THE MENACE OF THE RELIGIOUS MOVIE . A.W. Tozer is not the only one that would have a heart like this.We hold A.W. Tozer as a man of God. It has been said of him that he was a profit of our day. But when a hard saying come we have some way of explaining it away.Here are some clips of the article."The Church, as long as it is following the Lord, goes along in Bible ways and can give a scriptural reason for its conduct...Let the movie advocates quote just one verse, from any book of the Bible, in any translation, to justify its use. This they cannot do.""The temptation to introduce "new" things into the work of God has always been too strong for some people to resist. The Church has suffered untold injury at the hands of well intentioned but misguided persons who have felt that they know more about running God's work than Christ and His apostles did. A solid train of box cars would not suffice to haul away the religious rubbish which has been brought into the service of the Church with the hope of improving on the original pattern. These things have been, one and all, positive hindrances to the progress of the Truth, and have so altered the divinely-planned structure that the apostles, were they to return to earth today, would scarcely recognize the misshapen thing which has resulted.""3. The religious movie is a menace to true religion because it embodies acting, a violation of sincerity.""It is more than an etymological accident that the word "hypocrite" comes from the stage. It means actor. With that instinct for fitness which usually marks word origins, it has been used to signify one who has violated his sincerity and is playing a false part. An actor is one who assumes a character other than his own and plays it for effect. The more fully he can become possessed by another personality the better he is as an actor.""In order to produce a religious movie someone must, for the time, disguise his individuality and simulate that of another. His actions must be judged fraudulent, and those who watch them with approval share in the fraud. To pretend to pray, to simulate godly sorrow, to play at worship before the camera for effect---how utterly shocking to the reverent heart! How can Christians who approve this gross pretense ever understand the value of sincerity as taught by our Lord? What will be the end of a generation of Christians fed on such a diet of deception disguised as the faith of our fathers?""Indeed, history will show that no spiritual advance, no revival, no upsurge of spiritual life has ever been associated with acting in any form. The Holy Spirit never honors pretense.""The movie is not the modernization or improvement of any scriptural method; rather it is a medium in itself wholly foreign to the Bible and altogether unauthorized therein. It is play acting---just that, and nothing more. It is the introduction into the work of God of that which is not neutral, but entirely bad. The printing press is neutral; so is the radio; so is the camera. They may be used for good or bad purposes at the will of the user. But play acting is bad in its essence in that it involves the simulation of emotions not actually felt. It embodies a gross moral contradiction in that it calls a lie to the service of truth."7. I am against the religious movie because of the harmful effect upon everyone associated with it."First, the evil effect upon the "actors" who play the part of the various characters in the show; this is not the less because it is unsuspected. Who can, while in a state of fellowship with God, dare to play at being a prophet? Who has the gall to pretend to be an apostle, even in a show? Where is his reverence? Where is his fear? Where is his humility? Any one who can bring himself to act a part for any purpose, must first have grieved the Spirit and silenced His voice within the heart. Then the whole business will appear good to him. "He feedeth on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside." But he cannot escape the secret working of the ancient laws of the soul. Something high and fine and grand will die within him; and worst of all he will never suspect it. That is the curse that follows self-injury always. The Pharisees were examples of this. They were walking dead men, and they never dreamed how dead they were."

We as God's children should not even allow unsaved people to minister the word of GodNow I think you hit the nail on the head with one word here: ALLOW. I ask, who are we to allow anything in this world? We Christians are not put in the place of rulership over worldly affairs - to "allow" or "disallow" anything. Christ did not put himself in this kind of rulership over any, or call us to do that. He did not go and tell Caesar that he was not "allowed" to torture captives, or whatever.Christ gave us a far better way, and we are failing in that better way - the way of the Kingdom of God. However, there is hope. Once we surrender our fleshly penchant to play God, then I believe we are free to fight with the armor of God (Eph 6) It is the place of "washing dirty feet" That will help sinners see Christ. If we lived in a persecuted country, we would not be trying to dictate our convictions on unbelievers, or we'd be eliminated in a flash. We would quickly learn that we have no power in this world, and we'd learn to rely on the power of Christ. Diane

Brethrenit's amazing how we've gotten so riled up about this. now can we get as riled up about ALL the other sin out there? it seems to me we tend to jump all over sins we're not guilty of and try and explain away or justify the ones we commit. it seems to me that when we speak out against homosexuality but fail to address issues such as remarriage save for cases of death and marital infidelity, lying, stealing, opression of the weak such as orphans and so many other things God hates with the same fervor as we do homosexuality then we are very much guilty of being hypocrites. as long as we don't jump up and down about ALL sin, those who are homosexuals who would probably be compelled to repent upon observing our witness, will see us as hypocrites and we will be unable to effect and kind of remorse or thing that would lead to repentance. let's be even handed lest our witness be crippled.don't get me wrong brethren, i'm not making light of the gravity of this sin in anywise but i am appealing however that we approach all sin with the same jealousy for God and let the Lord deal with the sins in our own lives that we refuse to repent of. let's have the same jealousy for God and hate for sin in the world as we do in our own lives. how many of us truly spend as much time allowing the Lord to deal with our own sins as we do ranting about others?i'll be frank brethren, the Lord has brought me to a place where i am keenly aware of my pittiful state lest i get puffed up on account of all the increase in the Spirit and the things i've been freed from. The Lord so convicts me of my own iniquities that now i spend more time confessing my sins and repenting than i ever did. i had no idea how much sin i was guilty of! the thing is though, there is yet more to be repented of.Let us ALL fall on our faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD OR DIE!!!AMEN.

"The religious movie is a menace to true religion because it embodies acting, a violation of sincerity."Can we say with the psalmist from the heart of God?Psalm 119:99,100,104 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.Another quote from Tozer's article:"We of the evangelical faith are in the rather awkward position of criticizing Roman Catholicism for its weight of unscriptural impedimenta and at the same time tolerating in our own churches a world of religious fribble as bad as holy water...Old-line Protestantism has long ago been smothered to death by extra-scriptural rubbish. Unless we of the gospel churches wake up soon we shall most surely die by the same means.The theater is the world's wisdom at its brightest. I believe the religious movie is the most deceptive.I see a cancer in the church at large and the theater and the religious movie are really just merely branches to a much larger branch with the root unbelief. The cancer that grieves my heart is God's children feeding on the wisdom of this world and even using the world's wisdom to advance God's kingdom.I am sorry that I am diverting the discussion from the heading of this thread. But my heart is burning for God's glory and I can not hold back.A.W. Tozer"If God has given wisdom to see the error of religious shows we owe it to the Church to oppose them openly. We dare not take refuge in "guilty silence." Error is not silent; it is highly vocal and amazingly aggressive. We dare not be less so."

Edit at bottom of post-----------------------I just got back from watching End of the Spear (with my husband, Arielle and some of our small group from church).Just to make a few things clear. The movie is not a religious movie really. It is not meant to portray or explain the "gospel" in the sense of learning about salvation.The movie is about this main thing 'FORGIVENESS'.Whether you ever see the movie, I at least encourage everyone to read the story that it was based on: Through Gates of Splendor. It followed the story almost exactly.You get to actually see real footage at the end, where Nate saint's son, Steve along with the native who killed his father. The native is now 'grandfather' to Steve's children.The most amazing line from the movie was when the native who actually killed Nate Saint admitted to Steve (the son) that he was the one who took his dad's life, Steve said "no one took my father's life- he gave it."If anyone has read Through Gates of Splendor- bravo for you. I haven't read it yet, but plan on it now. Arielle is almost done with it and says it is by far one of the best books she has ever read.If I was wrong for going to see it- God help me. But by God's grace, I saw 'forgiveness' in a whole new light.Here are the families of the missionaries who were killed and were willing to go and live with these indians (risking their own lives) to get through to them that Christ wanted them to have LIFE and live in peace and not kill each other. How many of us are willing to risk our lives to go into the forest with indigineous peoples just to make sure that they might have a chance to know Christ before their whole tribe became exctinct. I mean how many of us would leave our comfort and give our lives for a small race/tribe of people that no one knows or cares about and who are very violent? Not many.If anything, I do hope and pray that there are some people who see this movie who don't know the real meaning of forgiveness. I pray that it will challenge some young person to live for something other then their own comfort.That there are people who are willing to risk their very own lives- not for something "honorable" such as their nation or some such thing- but for the nobodys, for the forgotten, the hidden, the untrustworthy, the sinner, the murderer. Who is willing to risk their own lives for a murderer? For the person who killed your father? For the person who killed your husband?I am tired, so I am not going to write too much more. I do thank God for the very clear lessons that He showed me through the film.No one took Nate saint's life from him (no one killed him) he gave it. And Jesus did the same. We are all called to do the same- lay down our lives for others- even if they are sinners. Even if they are the worst of the worst. Jesus did. Nate Saint did.In Him, Chaninedit:please, we are not unaware as to how the enemy works, ignore this actor, and embrace the Christ-centric message of this film. After seeing the movie, I couldn't agree with this more!Here is a movie that could be used for God's glory (and I believe still will anyway) and where is everyone's focus going?- the gay actor. My 10 year old son WILL be seeing it and I will make sure NOT to tell him about the actor being gay. I don't want to ruin that for him. There is no reason to. But I KNOW he will benefit immensely from the story.

All of these comments are well spoken and with great concern. Unlike the apostle Paul, the fact is we want what we want and we do what we want to do. The Christian community heaped praise upon the makers of the Narnia movie. OK, well made movie, great story and author. The millions that Disney makes from all of us will be pumped into its machine that spews out its homosexual agenda. They are one of the biggest producers of homosexual material in the business. And it is fueled by the dollars of those who willingly give because we want what we want. If all those millions were given to promote Christ-like morals and prayer funaces and pro-Christian politicians. perhaps we would have less to say on this topic.

What a mess...There is so many things to mention it seems an impossible task... At random and in general.A great deal of this is being rehashed, do a search on "The Passion" here, there were untold threads, a lot of venom, a lot of divisiveness and even a lot of similarities (Some of the actors also caught up in this particular sin). Now it has all blown over and quietly gone away, this to will pass.No need to lower oneself with derogatory terms, check your own posts and correct them please and check your heart as well.Has it ever dawned on anyone that by bringing out all the sorid details you are also defiling yourself? And providing the same for others? Is it really necessary? No, no one is sticking there heads in the sand. Have some consideration here for others."Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" Jam 3:10-11Will reiterate again what was said earlier;There is hardly anything left that will offend me personally, but it gets really strained to hear the accusations leveled at "This website".Keep in mind that if you are posting here you are indicting yourself as well, not to mention the curious way that is forgotten that this has been freely presented to air out ones opinions in the first place. Now the question remains, to be a part of the problem or the solution?If you must find that there is something inherently wrong here because YOU disagree with a couple of issues, then by all means do what is best for yourself and for everyone else here. This is becoming rather childish and self exalting to be making these sort of accusations and indictments when there is incredible amounts of worthy items that just fall to the wayside because the very loudest issues are the ones that those so opposed to are constantly feeding into and quite often with a great deal of bitterness and anger, no matter what 'side' of the issue one is on.

Hi all,I hope I wasn't too sarcastic or strong in my last post. Kind of silly to get all bent out of shape over a movie. It's just a passing thing. If the Lord so pleases, may He get the glory He deserves from this movie about His martyred missionaries.If it does not please him, then... so be it.I don't care one bit about the actors- that's why they are called 'actors'. I do care about the story and that it was portrayed as accurate and glorifying to the Lord.No matter what, i think we all desire that the Lord be glorified. But please, let's be careful about 'opinions' being stated as absolute truth.Jesus, help us to see You amidst all the extra stuff here.In His love, Chanin

Hi Chanin,Thanks for your input here and for an honest assessment after going to see it. That there was an implication that someone might be 'sinning' by going to see this is just beyond me.This is a great deal of expression struggling to get out here as so much is being missed by this constant drawing off into implied camps...No matter what, i think we all desire that the Lord be glorified. But please, let's be careful about 'opinions' being stated as absolute truth.Often times I don't think that is unfortunately true and it is due to the latter part.

Chanin, Thank you for sharing your first hand impressions of the movie. I was deeply touched. It brings me to tears to think that such a story is getting such a wide publicity through that movie industry, no less!!!!! Oh, how desparately we need to know about the lives of true committed Christians, those who expressed true love for humanity!! I think that God has a good sense of humor when he takes the worst of this world to bring out the best in this world. Isn't that just like God. He has a way of silencing all of us. Whether I see it or not depends on how God leads. If he promps me to go than it is a sin is if I refuse, but if he doesn't want me to, then it is a sin if if I go. It is not about my own rational process while I remain master of my life. It is about Christ being my master. I don't care one bit about the actors- that's why they are called 'actors'. And thank the Lord, no one was 'playing' Jesus in this movie (a totally different kind of story)I have a friend who was saved by watching "Jesus" hang on the cross in Jesus Christ Superstar. She saw her own sins there on the cross that day, and with deep brokeness she surrendered her life to Christ. And still today, her heart is deeply committed to Christ. Trust me, it was a genuine conversion, unaided (or should I say, undefiled) by any Christian. She is still serving God with humility and maturity. I remember when that movie was out - all the sermons warning us how wicked and evil that movie was, robing us of our money. That may be true, but yet: I think God had the last laugh! Diane

I certainly do not condone the gay “life style”, but as I understand the gospel, Christ came to call all sinners to repentence. Who are we to say who can come and can’t. Whether it be to a play a role in faith based movie or to worship the Lord, all are welcome to seek Christ. When we cast aside some one for their sin,[while ignoring our own], we deny them the oppurtunity to fully understand their errors before God and possibly a chance to turn away from their sinful ways. I also understand that Christ holds no sin to be worse than another, except for blasphemy against the holy spirit. For those who would boycott this film, I would ask a question by quoting a good song,”If we are the body, why aren’t his arms reaching”?, Thanks, God Bless. Seekup

Ironman It is true that there is a huge focus on the "homosexual" problem in Christian circles. You need to remember that in any "battle" you have to defend against whoever is shooting at you at that moment. In the Christian faith today, that is the homosexual agenda.There is no need to vigerously defend against drunk drivers.There is no need to vigerously defend against liers.There is no need to vigerously defend against murders. (abortian is an exception)There is no need to vigerously defend against most issues confronting the church today, because these "scirmishes" are being addressed by society, and focused prayer groups. At this moment in time the assault against the Body of Christ is the homosexual agenda. As in any battle, you can choose to defend your ground, surrender, or die. This issue is *not* about a movie, that is just where the battle line is today, but with every inch gained today in this issue, our enemy becomes more and more bold.. WHEN ARE THE BLINDERS GOING TO COME OFF SO THE BODY CAN SEE??From the posts on this site lately, it seems that most people here would even deny that there is a battle going on.. LOL Greg :-o

Bro Smokeyi respectfully disagree. The homosexual agenda is not the only thing assaulting the church, what of adultery, fornication and so on? These are things which are probably far much more rampant in the church today yet we say little if anything. i don't think it's right that we say that there is no need to vigorously defend against liars, slanderers and so on because sin is sin and as long as we confront only a few we are hypocrites, we need to come out swinging against it all. lying and slander and gossip have been around for so long we don't even think of them as sin any more or turn a blind eye to them.our children commit fornication like it's going out of style, where is the outrage about that? we marry and divorce as often as we buy new cars, we lie to eachother so as to not offend, gossip, curse, but who cares, no biggie...that's the attitude the enemy would want us to have, it makes his job easier. bro i agree that there is a war going on but to fight it only on one front is futile because if we make headway concerning the gay agenda but focus less on other issues like abortion, like alcoholism, like adultery, like fornication then the enemy makes deeper inroads into the body that way. why is it noone is as vehement about fornication in our children and adults, and adultery, how is it any better that homosexuality? all those sins are sexual and bring sin into the bodies involved. is the body of Christ not under assault from adultery and fornication, from lying and slander, from pronography, from drug addiction and so many other things?it is hypocritical of us and it kills our witness to jump up and down about homosexuality and yet say nothing about the rampant adultery and fornication and lying and all manner of sin that happen in the world and indeed in our own lives. how can we hope to be used of God to convict others out there of sin if we don't deal with it as harshly in ourselves as we do in others. bro like you said, when are the blinders going to come off so we can see. when are we going to stop being hypocritical and speak out against ALL sin?i feel that we should be even handed and come out swinging against ALL manner of sin wherever it may be found be it in our own hearts, the body of believers or in the world. The judgement of the Lord is upon us and it begins with His house. Let us ALL fall on our faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE.AMEN.

My point is not that there is not a sin issue to be addressed by the Body of Christ, there most certainly is, and there will always be issues that we need to be in prayer about. My only point is that our enemy has chosen to use the "homosexual issue" to get in the face of the church at this moment in time. This is the battle of the moment, and needs to be recognized for the threat that it is. LOL Greg

"Taking a stand agaoust sin" seems to mean different things to different people. Some are ready to march to the powers that be to make laws against sin, and force people to stop it. If it worked, Christ would not have had to come. The Old Covenant would have sufficed. If it worked, I'm sure Christ would have taken that approach as a model for us. The hypocrites in Jesus day had a tendency to "take stands" against what they viewed as sin,that is, contrary to God's law. They sure knew the law, and defended it with their all. The Bible makes it very clear what our calling is: ministers of reconciliation, messengers of the good news, living letters, ambassadors, etc. People change from the inside out, and when we understand that, then our calling becomes clear. If we are determined to strike against sin, we will just end up like Peter, and cut off a lot of ears, while missing the head (where the sin is birthed)We cannot view sinners as the enemy. We are not in a battle against people made of flesh and blood. (see Eph 6:10ff)PSBy the way, Greg, don't you think you should have included hypocrisy in your list of evil sins? Isn't that the sin that put Christ on the cross? And isn't that the sin that is causing untold damage in the church - a lot more than homosexuality is? Is it not spiritual blindness WITHIN the church that is making it easy prey to the sins of the world?Diane

Here are some that I have heard cry out not to watch:A.W. TozerIt should be noted that Tozer was big on Shakesperean plays. He was well versed in the many "plays."

brethrenThe Lord's let me shoot my mouth off again so He could bring to remembrance (for me anyway) something key.sister diane brought up something which has been lost in the shuffle, namely:The Bible makes it very clear what our calling is: ministers of reconciliation, messengers of the good news, living letters, ambassadors, etc. People change from the inside out, and when we understand that, then our calling becomes clear.we are to be living ambassadors. The gospel should be evident in our lives without us having to use words. Doesn't the word say this in john chapt 1334 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.our conduct should be such that it comvicts the hearts of men to repentance. of course should Holy Spirit lead any one of us to speak out against something then we should indeed be in obedience to that but primarily our conduct should testify that we are followers of Christ. She also said this:The hypocrites in Jesus day had a tendency to "take stands" against what they viewed as sin,that is, contrary to God's law. They sure knew the law, and defended it with their all.Let us pause for a moment and let the Lord make plain to us our motivation for what we do. The Lord has made it plain to me that many times the motivation is to escape the sins we need to deal with in our own lives. what sins are there that we need to confess and repent of that we're running from? does this not make us hypocrites? jumping up and down at what's out there and yet doing nothing to deal with our own pitiful states? also in response to the assaults of the enemy on the church, we tend not to seek the Lord's counsel (which is a cocktail for disaster) which leads me to this next point sis diane brought up.also we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, and spiritual wickednesses in high places. the ineptitude of the church is in the fact that there is little recognition of Holy Spirit let alone submission to Him. If we wrestle with spiritual entities then surely we are to fight them on the spiritual level by the power of Holy Spirit. could it be that failure is due to a repeated dealing with the symptoms rather than the root issue which is in the spirit? if we sought soberly the counsel of God via His Spirit we surely would be in better shape.We need to all repent of whatever sin and foolishness we harbour and submit to the Spirit of God to get involved in the affecting of His will and the bringing of His kingdom.Lord cause us to fall on our faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT lest we die.AMEN

posted by roadsign. By the way, Greg, don't you think you should have included hypocrisy in your list of evil sins? Isn't that the sin that put Christ on the cross? And isn't that the sin that is causing untold damage in the church - a lot more than homosexuality is? Is it not spiritual blindness WITHIN the church that is making it easy prey to the sins of the world?Boy where do I start? The sin of hipocricy put Jesus on the cross? I have always believed that it was His love for you and me and Bill and Ted and Betty and...that put Him on the cross. God placed the cross on the path that Jesus took, and Jesus chose to be faithful and submitted to physical death on that cross for the sins of the whole world. PRAISE GOD!Is this website big enough to list all the sins that are out there??I chose a few as for-instances, those just happened to come to mind at the time.There is a message on this website by Ray Comfort called The Evidence. He explains why hipocricy is NOT a problem in the Church, because the Church is the Body of Christ which is made up ONLY of born again believers. There is NO hipocricy in the CHURCH, only in the tares that think they are the church..Jesus introduces us to them in Matthew 7:22-23Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Greg

My wife and I saw the movie Friday night with another couple from church. It was really moving, although I thought they portrayed the Missionaries as a bunch of dopes. Nevertheless, the movie was outstanding and without a single word of profanity. We were all moved to tears by their sacrifice, and the triumph of the Gospel over the darkness in men's hearts. I am sure that some will say that the Gospel was not prominantly portrayed in the film, and that it could seem like it was just human love overcoming evil, but only the Gospel makes a person devote their life to such a "lost" cause.I am sorry to hear that an actor who has rejected for now the claims of Christ was a star of the movie, but only in so much as he is not converted. Perhaps this will bring him to a point of self examination before our holy God. If not, he is certainly without excuse. Praise God for this wonderful film! :-)

It may be just me, but what miracle did Chad Allen perform in Jesus's name? Greg :-o

I cried through the whole movie. I will see it again with some friends next week. It was great to finally see the book I read years ago put on the big screen.

Neilgin1sorry. Just what was your point in posting that scripture?Greg :-(

If you were in the supermarket and found a bag of beautifull red shiny apples with only one that was black and mouldy, how many of you would buy that bag of apples? Greg

Found this review by Agent Tim Online:“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” “He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose”.–Jim ElliotFirst of all, let me begin by saying that The End of the Spear was a powerful movie. It was surprising how well done the film was technically, even with a lower budget. The story was, as I knew, incredible. The scenes were touching, and reached out to the audience, leaving a stunned audience to sit in silence at the end of the film, not moving anywhere to leave the theatre. Before going into the theatre, I knew one huge fact about this movie. It’s name, or rather, his name was Chad Allen. Allen happens to be one of the nation’s leading gay activists, and the actor portraying the part of Nate and Steve Saint, one of the five missionaries killed by the Waodani in the 1950s. I believed that the knowledge that this was a gay man would ruin my experience. But it did not. The man was just like any other actor, a sinner, who was doing his job. The acting was superb, and I was glad that this man’s lifestyle had no affect on me as I watched the movie.Yet still, we have seen a lot of legitimate concern with using the “worst man for the job.” This man is one who worships, as he says, the “God of my understanding. It’s very powerful, and it’s taken its own shape and form. And I am very much at peace in the knowledge that in my heart God created this beautiful expression of my love.” It is obvious that he was not the best man for the job. In fact, he could have been the worst man for the job. World Net Daily reports Steve Saint’s interesting take on the situation:Nate Saint’s son Steve Saint, who served as a producer, a stunt pilot and had a bit part in the film, believes it was God’s plan to have Allen in “End of the Spear,” according to Agape Press.Saint admitted, however, he was shocked when he learned Allen was homosexual.“I could feel physical pain,” he recalled, “thinking [that] somebody that lives a lifestyle like that is going to depict my dad.”But after further reflection, he began to see Allen’s involvement might be God-ordained.Some Christians might be offended by Allen’s role, Saint realized, but “I thought, ‘What happens if I stand before God someday and He says to me, “Steve, I went out of my way to orchestrate an opportunity for Chad Allen to see what it would be like to live as your father did.”‘ And then I could picture Him looking at me and saying, ‘Steve, why did you mess with my plan?’” Also according to World Net Daily, Allen supposedly has made a “gentleman’s agreement” with Every Tribe Entertainment to not use the platform given to him through this movie as a way to promote his homosexual activities. What concerned me the most was not a gay actor or a director of gay movies, but rather the power of the gospel given in this movie. For the majority of the movie, I put myself in the shoes of an unbeliever. I came to the conclusion that the power of the gospel could be received as powerful. Yet it is very possible to wonder what exactly those missionaries were willing to give up their lives for, other than to be friendly and stop the killing. Some have claimed that it is impossible to see the gospel in this film because it is so hidden, yet I will differ on that point. It will vary, as I said, from person to person, and their background. Beyond the Gates of Splendor did not “preach” the gospel. And really, we should be the ones proclaiming the gospel, not this movie. We need to make sure we don’t get hung up on details, or problems such as these and take our eyes off of what we really need to be doing.As a Christian, the gospel was evident as the Aucas realized that these missionaries were trying to tell them something–that the God they knew was out there and had a Son, and he was the way to jump the great “boa.” Of course, one would need a foreknowledge of the gospel to understand the dual meaning of these words which were used to help the Indians understand the message. Perhaps we need to go beyond the gospel even, and realize that this is a story for Christians. A story about the ultimate sacrifice of these men who were willing to do crazy things to give horrible sinners the hope of forgivness and eternal life. It is a challenge to us to take our Christianity seriously and to be willing to give up personal comfort to save our brothers and sisters from eternity in hell. Really, that is the essential part of this film, even above the gospel. It is a challenge to spread the gospel. The story as a whole, as I said, is absolutely powerful. The main character, Mincayani, is well-portrayed. His is a story of hatred and fear, turned into love and forgiveness as he becomes a God-follower, following the “carvings” of God’s Word. We also see Nate Saint and his son. Their relationship proves to be something that affects you when you witness the horrible slaying of Nate Saint and the other missionaries on Palm Beach. There is a wonderful set of scenes, starting with Steve Saint asking his aunt the words of “We are your sincere friends” in Waodani over the radio (she was friends with Dayuma, an Auca who escaped to the white men early in the movie.) He asks his dad to promise to speak those words if he gets in a jam on the beach. Sure enough, he does.As Nate Saint lies there, gasping for breath, a spear in his chest, and Mincayani standing over him, he speaks those words to him. If you have a heart at all at this point you’ll need some kleenex.Another scene is at the end, when Steve Saint is given the chance to take revenge on Mincayani, yet he responds by telling Mincayani that “no one took my father’s life, he gave it away.”*The true story was the key ingredient in this film, mixed with enough humorous parts to keep the audience entertained, and plenty of moments that broke your heart. These moments made the audience sit silently as the filmed closed. Many were wiping away tears, and others were pondering what had just happened as they saw horrible sin being forgiven. Overall, the movie receives a B, as the gospel is not as strong as it could be, you really didn’t get to know the other missionaries and the story behind the story, and while they picked a good actor in terms of his skills, the fact that he is a gay activist is disheartening, to put it mildly.I would encourage you to see it for yourself. I do not believe it would be a sin to go see it, and I would preach day and night against anything Chad Allen says if he decides to use the platform that has been given him. I want him to know True Joy and Peace, not joy and peace run by his feelings and understandings. Finally, I am asking myself the question of whether or not Steve Saint was wrong in what he has done. And I’m really not 100% sure. Some are saying he’s terribly wrong, and others still are saying we don’t know. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, believing that he wanted to witness to this man. I really would like to get in personal contact with him to ask those vital questions that really need to be asked. -----------------In Him, Chanin

Having read the posts here, i knew there was a gay actor playing the lead role when i saw the movie.as an inner city missionary who has paid a price to live and love in the ghetto, i was invited to see the show by another Christian who had also invited some unbelievers along. the tickets, candy, drinks and popcorn was purchased for all of us by the believers so i had no investment other than my time.we all gathered together afterwards to discuss the movie (are you hearing the fact that this movie was viewed by unbelievers????????)where we were able to witness in such a way that some very rocky fields were plowed and seeds were planted. the first hour of the discussion was very hostile as it focused on the unbeliever's hatred of Christianity and the reasons for which they, the unbelievers, rejected it. all of them had some form of Christian upbringing and were currently practicing "something", but all had a bitter taste in their mouth at the hands of people hiding behind a cross-i mean these folks had been persecuted and hung on a cross by religion itself while witnessing the church's lack of authority over satan from the pulpit itself!in the middle of all the hate flowing out of their hearts and over their lips, i submitted myself to the Holy Spirit and asked for His help. it came literally with the words "isn't it funny how you can mention buddah, allah, mohammad, dali llama, ghandi, shamanism, new age, etc.. and no one responds, but mention the name of Jesus and the whole room freaks out."wow! there is power in that name! immediately the mocking spirit was exposed and the Holy Spirit entered the room to minister and cleanse the exposed old wounds these folks were walking with. one of them said, "you know, as a daughter of a preacher, i was raised around all sorts of definitions of who Christ is. but, the example explained in the film was one of the most beautiful i have ever heard."as our fellowship continued, i shared how i had approached Jesus scientifically in that i set out to test and see if what He said in this "book" was true-if it was i would follow Him the rest of my days or i would stop losing sleep over the homeless on our streets and the children dying in africa.of course the message was for the person who walked out of the room in the middle of what i was saying but the others listened. somewhere in the middle of it all, i heard "those who are My sheep will know My Voice." and rejoiced.i am glad my sister took a risk to invite some unbelievers to watch a film about forgiveness and redemption. i am glad she invested some cash to watch a film that rejoiced over the lives sacrificed not in vain over 50 years ago.this film glorified the Power in the sacrifice our Lord and Savior made over 2,000 years ago. it did not glorify a gay lifestyle, and regardless of the homosexual agenda (and that is real) no one mentioned the actors once.in re to a reference made pertaining to the walt disney industry, it does not support a Christian agenda and withstanding it's position on homosexuality, witchcraft and the occult is the substance from which it is made of. counter this to the fact that half of the money made from the film "end of the spear" will be given to the waodoni people?peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a a man of truth; there is nothing false about him." john 7:18

God Bless and thank you sisters!"isn't it funny how you can mention buddah, allah, mohammad, dali llama, ghandi, shamanism, new age, etc.. and no one responds, but mention the name of Jesus and the whole room freaks out."Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; It is incredible, still. The confrontation that just even His Name brings and even more peculiar is when it is used as a curse word without even a second thought or similar reaction. Great testimony there.Yet still, we have seen a lot of legitimate concern with using the “worst man for the job.” This man is one who worships, as he says, the “God of my understanding. It’s very powerful, and it’s taken its own shape and form. And I am very much at peace in the knowledge that in my heart God created this beautiful expression of my love.” It is obvious that he was not the best man for the job. In fact, he could have been the worst man for the job. I would encourage you to see it for yourself. I do not believe it would be a sin to go see it, and I would preach day and night against anything Chad Allen says if he decides to use the platform that has been given him. I want him to know True Joy and Peace, not joy and peace run by his feelings and understandings. Finally, I am asking myself the question of whether or not Steve Saint was wrong in what he has done. And I’m really not 100% sure. Some are saying he’s terribly wrong, and others still are saying we don’t know. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, believing that he wanted to witness to this man. I really would like to get in personal contact with him to ask those vital questions that really need to be asked. All these including Steve Saints own obvious misgivings mentioned... Thank you Chanin, this expresses the sentiment exactly, this holding two thought's in tension and my discomfort with making things difficult into easy camps of separate and opposing extremes that we can then divide over.This was a great part of the "mess" I was alluding to earlier. I have been struggling all day to try and answer this question posed here.Do want to add just one thing to all this. Have yet to see the movie but did get a chance to listen to the messages that Yodi got up here. I cannot recommend these highly enough. The Drown's are incredibly real and experienced saints that will put a soberness and humbleness in a lot of opinion making. The evenness of Franks message, his proving out how even the grand question of "those who have never heard" know plenty (Romans 1)and quite reminiscent of "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", but beyond all that the challenges to our easy and comfortable lives ... so much. The voice of experience over the voice of reason.The link to the messages is at the beginning of this thread: to every TRIBE, TONGUE & NATION and do not recall which in particular it was, they are all worth hearing.

I was dismayed by the accusations against one another. Some who agree with me questioned the character of those who would see this movie... or ANY movie for that matter. Those on the other side of the debate accused those who have issues with this movie of being pharisees and not being ivolved in outreach, evangelism, etc... even tho the accusers know nothing about the people they are accusing.Never thought I would see such a lax attitude about this on this website. I'm somewhat dismayed.This is from an article concerning this issue. If after reading this everyone here is still okey-dokey with this man being an actor in a "Christian" produced movie... then I'm not sure I can continue to associate myself with this forum... (I love the website, but I think this forum is heading in the wrong direction)But the personal attacks in this discussion are, well... to put it plainly... stupid and immature. Those involved need to grow up.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Are you not also indicting yourself here? This is precisely the problem that is being overlooked, both the accusers and the accused are guilty if there is a continuance of labeling this site as a whole. First take the plank out...

All right, now I'll insert a useless comment. My husband is a high school music teacher. The theatre arts class is doing Fiddler on the Roof, and he is involved. The lead actor happens to be... guess what.... You guessed it...When I shared about this thread, my husband responded: "I treat him no differently than the other highschool kids. Diane

Some who agree with me questioned the character of those who would see this movie... or ANY movie for that matter. Those on the other side of the debate accused those who have issues with this movie of being pharisees and not being ivolved in outreach,Krispy, I take your comments here seriously. The problem with me is that I'm a bit dense. When there are generalized comments, I never know if any are aimed at me, or on which side I may be viewed. And so, I don't know if and how I need to change. I prefer to be hit with a direct bullet rather than with buckshot that goes everywhere, and maybe wasn't even meant to be aimed at me.I confess that God's Spirit has often convicted me of being pharisaical, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still some residue. Diane

The lead actor happens to be... guess what.... You guessed it...When I shared about this thread, my husband responded: "I treat him no differently than the other highschool kids. I think it's odd that in light of all this, just last week I agreed to take on a personal training client for 4 sessions. It just happened that the lady is a lesbian. All I could wonder is what kind of opportunity was the Lord giving me.For one, I get to pray for her daily. Two, i treat her like anyone else I would train- with love and compassion and motivation. The Lord gives me many opportunities to slip in things like "I've got be be at my small group meeting for church after this", I mention things like 'church' and my 'faith' (helping me get through a hard time) in passing as if it's a totally normal thing, but not so that i am pushing it on her. I want her to know that: here is a christian who is not afraid or disgusted to work along side someone who is gay. Hey, what a novel idea! She seems to look up to me in the area of fitness and being healthy- she wants what I've got. With the Lord's help and much prayer- maybe she will want what I've got INSIDE-Jesus. Only the Lord knows. I am giving it to Him totally. It is stretching my faith and my comfort zone. I just think it is interesting how this thing with the movie and then my fitness training client came about at the some time.In His love, Chaninedit: what I am really waiting for is an opportunity for me to say "hey, I'll be pray for you" - maybe in response to a problem she is facing or something like that. I am just waiting :-)

Here is an article I seen today.Imitators of Christ: Why You Need to See End of the SpearNot trying to push a certain side, just sharing what I found. If I find anything on the other side of this I'll post it too.

On My Space I excitedly sent a bulletin out to all my friends about the movie, sharing how I was planning to see it with friends and encouraging them to check out the movie's website. Shortly after posting the bulletin, I was warned by a friend of a My Space friend about Nate Saint's character being played by a homosexual activist. I checked out the article links he sent me and it was true. I was bummed. I felt the movie would be ruined for me. But then I turned my thoughts toward praying for all the unbelievers who might be curious about this movie. I prayed for the believers as well, that they would be inspired by the testimony of all the missionaries. This movie wasn't promoting the gay lifestyle. This movie was promoting a story that is pleasing to God. I'm actually surprised that this guy would be willing to play a Christian role in a Christian movie. I read about his reasons for doing it, but still... we can pray for him too.The movie was very touching to me. But mostly because I've been reading books about missionaries who were reaching out to Indian tribes down in Ecuador at the time those 5 other families were - Frank and Marie Drown. I heard them share at a Missions Conference the first week of January. I've been reading about their love for different Indian tribes, the trials and blessings they experienced, and how the death of those 5 missionaries impacted Frank's life, 2 of the men being close friends of his - Nate and Roj (Roger). So in the very beginning of the movie, when the Windani (Aucas) were spearing each other to death, and all the children were running for their lives through the jungle, in fear... it just brought to life what I've been reading. In that moment of the movie, I felt like I got just a bit more of a glimpse of those missionaries' hearts for those Indians, and I cried. Those Indians were living in fear all the time and were killing each other off. Those missionaries felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to go down there and offer the Indians an alternative to their destructive lifestyle - a new life in Christ. I was sent into deep thought after the movie was out. I know God is preparing my heart for His plans, and maybe it's to be a missionary myself to a foreign land. But I also know I have the awesome privilege and responsibility to be a missionary to my own family, my own church body, my own community and my own nation. I will be faithful here first, and then see where the Lord may take me!

There is nothing wrong with working along side a homosexual in the secular arena. But soon we'll think nothing is wrong with working along side an unrepentent homosexual in the ministry.Krispy, I think I know where you are coming from. It's about having lower expectations of the secular community than the Christian community. To be honest, that's why I like to work in the secular arena, including my mainline church that would not be considered "evangelical". It is so freeing! I enjoy my work, am filled with peace. I love the people, accept them where they are at, and no longer lose sleep when things don't meet my expectations. (I used to) In my past experiences in evangelical churches and organizations I used to get very upset about the inconsistencies I'd see. I even would write letters to my elders regarding my concerns. Of course they didn't didn't take kindly to that. They were more concerned that the operation run smoothly and did not want some overly assertive female rocking the boat by implying that something was wrong. Through many hard knocks I finally learned to accept the reality that there is almost no difference between religious and secular arenas. The church is a mini segment of the world. That's just the way it is, and shake off the illusions. God also taught me that I was not the one to try to change things and I needed to surrender it into his hands. That has helped me have piece of mind. I can enjoy my work at church, and I respect the people (yes, even the masonsic elders) and am seeing little flickers of God's Spirit at work here and there. I marvel what God can do in a sick organization. He works in spite of theological, organizational, and relational corruption. All God asks me to do is respect the people and require that those I lead also respect the congregation. I see people softening, and gradually they are seeing that I am real, I care about them, and I can be trusted. It is so freeing to let go of ideal expectations, and the belief that it is my MISSION to straighten out the mess. God can handle it quite well. The more I read through this thread, the more I believe that God has STRATEGICALLY placed the key actor where he did. He is saying, "Look what I can do through these sinners! And you zealous Christians didn't think it was possible, did you? Would it not be like God to decrease us and increase Christ? Is his name not being glorified? I wonder what he will do next. Diane

Perhaps this is my own fault for not being more clear. The tendency to generalise things comes when there are often related issues developing across other posts and threads. Considering the particular position I am coming from, reading across many items here, that tendecncy will result often in that. The hope is that we all would just examine ourselves and re-read what we are writting in our responses.Will put this disclaimer here in front of all that follows. There is nothing personal to be taken from these excerpts other than to point out the problems which I am seeing here that can be divisive. It is not an attack on your personhood nor an assumption that anyone is out to get you, that you are being picked on. It is for that very reason that I resisted even responding to the questions laidout by Dorcas earlier, the other was to truly pray about my own motives and to be clear.There is absolutely no other 'agenda' here than to work towards reconcilliation and that can be always taken as a generalisation across all that goes on here at all times. I will admit to my own fears and maybe even suspicions, those that I am attempting to get everybody to stop leveling at each other here... What I fear is a factioning of this particular community that we are all part of by participation. That where there is agreement there would be a huddling off into little subsets, quiet little behind the scenes comments about other members here which would be gossiping in reality and can cause all sorts of ill will to be spread through this forum. Having said that, I do hope that it is not true and it is not an accusation, but the possibilites are there and could but wish to curb it now. I can see where church splits are started and where the similarities are no different here.The issues are what you are saying, each of us, the words choosen, the issues spoken to and about, NOT the person, if we could but grapple with this primarily across all these discussions it would seem to clear up a lot of misunderstandings. Again, redundantly, please ask questions and for clarifications and let us do away with the assuming and implying and the suspicion thereof. Had sat on this all weekend and feel compelled to bring it forth now with all the short introductory preface.....Dorcas;We all need space to grow in the Lord, and this forum is one place to meet with others who also find this a beneficial medium - or, one of the few which is open to them. For myself, while I've grown immensely in confidence posting here, I have watched as others grow in understanding of the written form and its use, and in their practice communicating more effectively, in both clarity and love. Perhaps I am alone in this, but I would appreciate total clarity on your definition of 'the problem'. You did take this out of it's context here... There is hardly anything left that will offend me personally, but it gets really strained to hear the accusations leveled at "This website". Keep in mind that if you are posting here you are indicting yourself as well, not to mention the curious way that is forgotten that this has been freely presented to air out ones opinions in the first place. Now the question remains, to be a part of the problem or the solution? If you must find that there is something inherently wrong here because YOU disagree with a couple of issues, then by all means do what is best for yourself and for everyone else here. This is becoming rather childish and self exalting to be making these sort of accusations and indictments when there is incredible amounts of worthy items that just fall to the wayside because the very loudest issues are the ones that those so opposed to are constantly feeding into and quite often with a great deal of bitterness and anger, no matter what 'side' of the issue one is on.Still feel the same way about this. There is a tremendous amount of patience here to allow memembers to clarify and where needed apologize, correct, reflect, reconcille. Unfortunately it is not always forthcoming and am begining to wonder if more swift removal of those who are being antagonistic, whether they recogonize it or not is warranted. There are a couple of individuals here that would have been cut off a long time ago if not for some pleading of patience on their behalf and I am not going to single them out here, they know who they are. The rest are generally willing to at least look at what they a writting and their conduct and be forthcoming about it. Dorcas;Also, the phrase 'accusations and indictments' ... what are you talking about? I really wanted to quote your whole post and dispute it generally, but, you did not give examples to back up your comments, which means if you're referring to this thread in particular, your post serves as a vague accusation against us all - which I think is what you intended - but, how can any of us think about what we have 'done wrong', in your opinion, or correct it, if we are left guessing? I don't think it can be a case of 'you know who you are' unless you have also contacted the individuals privately, to indicate where you think they are in error. Yes, they can know who they are if they would but reread their own postings as was suggested and no that is not a correct way of going about things privately when this is before everyone publicaly.The above paragraph was from the weekend. Apparently I am wrong here. The examples; Neil;Re: Sometimes I feel ... like I should just leave this forum. Not even to look at it, or visit here. I've listened to and downloaded every Duncan Campbell and Leonard Ravenhill sermon. It feels to me, everytime I read this forum, I see something or someone who I disagree with, so completely, that it stumbles me to even read certain posters posts.Neil;Ginnyrose this is probably, (God willing) going to be the last post I ever address to you,but you wrote: Krispy;Never thought I would see such a lax attitude about this on this website. I'm somewhat dismayed.Neil;Mike Balog, I do believe I'm close to being done with this forum.Krispy;This is from an article concerning this issue. If after reading this everyone here is still okey-dokey with this man being an actor in a "Christian" produced movie... then I'm not sure I can continue to associate myself with this forum... (I love the website, but I think this forum is heading in the wrong direction)There have been other similar 'threats' and accusations about 'this site, this forum' and it is weary and tired. There is a sense of why should I defend it? No one is keeping anyone here against their free will. Shall we allow the good that is done here to be spoken as of evil? Dorcas;I know you mentioned The Passion, but, that was a different film, even if some of the issues are similar. A great deal of this is being rehashed, do a search on "The Passion" here, there were untold threads, a lot of venom, a lot of divisiveness and even a lot of similarities (Some of the actors also caught up in this particular sin). Now it has all blown over and quietly gone away, this to will pass. The point being the issue of divisiveness. It was a long couple of months of going through all this even before the movie was released and could see the same build up starting here, all over again.Dorcas;I am aware, too, that in being so forthright, I am 'indicting' myself with the 'opinion' that unless we are all free to continue expressing what we REALLY think - in decent language and honouring one another's status in Christ in the process - there will be no point in the existence of a forum. Hredi;Now when will you allow a practicing homo into your pulpit? Do you send your children to schools where the teachers are openly homos? Jesus ate with sinners but we never read where Jesus or the disciples engaged homos to entertain them with the gospel story...(Mine previously) No need to lower oneself with derogatory terms, check your own posts and correct them please and check your heart as well. Has it ever dawned on anyone that by bringing out all the sorid details you are also defiling yourself? And providing the same for others? Is it really necessary? No, no one is sticking there heads in the sand. Have some consideration here for others. Not about to repost excerpt's from the long article posted earlier by Krispy, a link would have surficied. The questions I have is it necessary to go into all the details and then reprint them here? No one is sticking their head in the sand... The reminder of my thoughts from the weekend...Shall we continue to allow the room to breathe and make corrections or should we just begin cutting off those who are divisive? Yes, the whole point in Forum Notice ~ Please Readwas to address across many postings this strange phenomenon that creeps up here from time to time, this sort of feeding freenzy that ought not to be part of us who are followers of the Lord. It seems to come in waves and becomes a dragging down of this forum into the gutter. Again and perhaps this is mere opinion as well but it seems that we are incapbale of holding two simultanious thoughts in tension; To agree in part is not necessarly to agree in whole. It is not to give allegiance nor support to one side exclusively over the other. The bi-partisnship of politics is equally prevelant amongst Gods people and keep finding it a rather peculiar thing. Would only correct that to be grevious.Have we not yet found that this is precisely the complexity of living in this modern world? In the world, but not of the world? I cannot think of a greater example of this tension than what has come about right here, with this movie and this actor. Shall we become paranoid to express the possibilities that maybe there is every good reason for something like this to happen in just this fashion and to do but one thing; Test us all for our reactions as saints. Is God in control or not? Yet with all this said it is just not that simple really. The problem as it stands here is that this really does cast a pale over the whole thing regardless (about this actor) and was in part of the "mess" I was alluding to.

Hi Karl, you would have to go back a few pages... all the way back.

Ignorance is bliss... or can be in some situations... like this one. Staying out of the drama. Just posted how the movie ministered to me and just a bit about my thoughts on the actor who played Nate Saint's character.I've learned my lessons in participating in these debates. Sad thing is, we're all Christians and the enemy is so crafty in dividing us. We gotta pick our battles carefully, and especially with whom.

Mike B. and SI,I am ashamed of my self for letting what came out of my post as Mike mentioned earlier.I was using a quote and did not see the derogatory term in the quote even though it was the main subject in the quote. That is no excuse. I need to go over my posts more thoroughly with prayer before posting.I am sorry and ashamed and ask for forgiveness.

there is nothing personal to be taken from these excerpts other than to point out the problems which I am seeing here that can be divisive. I guess I'm trying to understand the benefit of generalized comments that are “nothing personal”. Of course this is all about personal! Discussion is about the personal journey of growth, falling, and learning! This thread has been about a man whom none of us will likely ever speak to or influence. But I suspect God has another agenda for each of us that is personal. Maybe he's refining us through the "mess". A German immigrant told me that in Germany it was common for people to have political debates in the market place - even very heated arguments. But by the end of the day, they parted as friends. They didn’t feel that their value as a person was threatened when someone disagreed with them. This lady noticed that here (Canada) people tend to discourage debate and prefer to all agree, or pretend to agree. She feels that this doesn’t help people to learn to think and dialogue about what they believe. Mike, don’t you think that these things will blow over, or resolve given time. I wonder how often words are actually reactions to experiences in the past – rather than attacks at persons here. Once on another forum a few years ago I made a response to someone’s post. He responded back with violent fireworks – full of anger and accusations. I couldn’t see any connection between his words and mine. In no time there was a reaction - like bees coming out of a hive. This poor fellow was mercilessly “set in his place” by other members. I received PMs telling me not to “take it personally”. People tried to defend my post. The moderator read the riot act, and the forum rules were posted. When the dust settled, I asked this man, “What was it about my response that troubled you. He replied, “Nothing, It’s just that something you said reminded me of so and so, and I can’t stand so and so. He annoys me.” After that we had some delightful private correspondence.That day a brother became conscience of a grudge that he never even realized he had, and he received mercy. It would have been better if everyone else kept their fingers out of the pot, and waited patiently. Why are we so afraid to risk and make room for the practice of mercy? (that's just a generalized concern about culture and church)Diane

We gotta pick our battles carefully, and especially with whom.Yolanda this is so true. I have also learned this the past couple of years. I remember when i first came to sermonindex, how easy it was to get into a debate or to be offended if someone did not see things as I did. Everyone feels 'they' are right. The Lord has humbled me many times throughout the years now and I have learned to keep a guard over my mouth most of the time.Set a guard, O Lord, over my mouth; keep watch over the door of my lips! Ps 141:3With time comes maturity (we hope :), with spiritual growth comes forebearance. Reminds me of a post (41 Evidences of Pride)that i need to bring back up from a while back. I think I'll do that :)The words we use are powerful, they can do enormous damage (many times that can't be undone) or they can give life.Sorry to get off track on this thread again. I think I'll stick with relating my experiences and let others do the debating :)In His love, Chanin

I guess I'm trying to understand the benefit of generalized comments that are “nothing personal”. Of course this is all about personal! Discussion is about the personal journey of growth, falling, and learning! Just that it can be taken the wrong way, as demeaning or self-righteous to take notice of what is being said... Similar to, but not quite...2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. 2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. Mike, don’t you think that these things will blow over, or resolve given time. I wonder how often words are actually reactions to experiences in the past – rather than attacks at persons here. Funny, I didn't heed my own words here earlier to the same effect, should have left it well enough alone, Yodi's right, a bit too much 'drama'. Think there may be indeed parts of that latter note, actually alluded to it, those experiences of the past. In a nutshell, it's the digs at other members and at this site and primarily a response to the questions asked by Dorcas.Hredii, forgiven. Thank you sister.

Brace yourself Neil, this needs to be said and said bluntly, if I didn't give a rip I would stay silent. You have an antagonist mindset that you refuse to look at.You defend yourself often and refuse to confront your own words. How many times will you continue to take swipes at this forum, at this site, posture yourself as above it all and then threaten to leave when you are a great cause of the problem? We have been through this before and I was your defender in keeping you here, pleading for patience and long-suffering and reconciliation. When there is a disputing, a challenge or a questioning you go for the personal attack. You launch off on to speculation, presumption and labeling by stereotypes what you think someone is thinking or is motivated by.. Your politics stink because you have it fixed in your mind that people are incapable of holding two seemingly opposite thoughts at the same time.no, I've been truly grieved at some of the postings I read, and reading them REALLY stumbles me at times, because I wonder if I am in the SAME FAITH with the people who write them.So you write them off and take a swipe at them with a snide comment.The torture thread really, really just took my breath away. Y'know before Jesus rung my bell, I would out-hawk Krispy.....I was a more intense hawk then he was, I made him seem like a hippy peacenik, but God took mercy on me and remade me.Yes and you brought forth a lot of verbal garbage to begin with by posting an absurd bit of nonsense in the first place. Not about to go through all this here, but you refuse to hear any other thought than your own. How absurd to think that anybody in all honesty would 'support' torture but again, you cannot hear anyone else over the sound of your own voice and constructs that you feel you must force everyone into.War is sin, murder is sin, AND torture is sin. And abortion and gluttony and lying and bitterness and bearing false witness... And there will be wars, wars and rumors of wars and the saints will be and are persecuted, will you stop it by cursing the darkness? By protest? Facts are facts, brutal, ugly, reality.I don't even want to rehash that miserable thread, the whole thread was affrontery to Christ, I don't care what anybody says,Pause... long pause. There was some points made in there that you refuse to hear because...that what the Spirit in me says, that torture is just nightmare human sin...and then we had this thread, lambasting a wonderful movie about wonderful believers who gave it all to follow Christ, and the devil just uses people to noise abroad, AS LOUD AS THEY CAN, about some "homo actor". And you care little about tact or other people here, that there is two issues at hand that cannot simply be ratified by drawing a neat line in the sand and pronouncing; "Choose". If you could but humble yourself to listen and hear that there is another sentiment that recognizes a paradox that even Steve Saint had to deal with...It's just grievous, not the fact that one of the actors in this film is an unrepentant sinner, but that this noble effort has to be dragged thru the mud in needless , yes NEEDLESS controversy.It is not needless, it is proving just how hypocritical we Christians can be by taking things to extremes and not being truly honest about the issues, that not everything is a matter of black and white and exposes the bitterness, anger, self-righteousness of opinion and speculation.Mike, you're fond of saying how I'm full of judgement, which I believe you're wrong. You will never see me criticizing the gospel ministry of anybody, even if I don't believe that what they are doing lines up with Scripture, even the apostates I keep my mouth shut about.Your own words prove you wrong and then you have the audacity to backtrack from them, they are littered all over the place with your threatenings, your 'stumblings', it's all about you Neil.The only ones I howl about are the politicians who, as I see it, use the provisions of the Lord Jesus Christ to further their craven fleshly imperial desires....and you don't like that, because I usually write about politicians and parties you agree with. Be real, if I was using my keyboard to eviscerate democrats you would be cheerleading. But as the only real problem I have with dem's is their horrid stand about abortion on demand, you castigate me for what I write. so be it. Thats your wont, thats your privledge. Neither means neither means neither. You are sining greatly and this is precisely the insinuations and assumptions you are want to place everyone into. You are calling me a liar. You have been and are attempting to make me say something I have never said, never appealed to nor did it ever enter into my mind. "Be real?". I despise politics and this whole mindset, the whole stereotyping that you must have. The whole "either \\or", the accusations and insinuations, this whole climbing into other people heads; "I know what you are thinking". You do not! How more emphatically can I put it? This is an open rebuke to you and you need to repent of it.But brother, if you don't want me around here...just say it, I would never NOT be in submission to leadership, or someplace where I wasn't wanted. This is again the whole problem with taking things far too personally. If you get challenged you do not want to face it. YOU are the one making the threatenings of leaving and not the first time, are you attempting to elicit sympathy, pity? There is a certain cowardliness that wants to 'pick up their marbles and go home' instead of confronting their own shortcomings, not wanting to get down into the muck and mire of soul craft, admitting their failures and working to resolve things. How much easier it would be to just cut off those who may be antagonistic whether or not it is recognized. There is a great deal of patience in this regard here and maybe it does get a bit under my skin where it shouldn't when some are want to despise that very patience and long-suffering to correct misunderstandings, ask different and other questions, to make us all think, ponder, contemplate. You must realize that it is possible to see more than one point of view without compromise, without going to extremes and with the tension that is inherent in this world due to sin. The scriptures are replete with examples of paradox not the least greatest of them all that Jesus had at His disposal ...Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? And yet choose not to dispense them though He easily could have. The problem still being that we have the whole bloody mess at the end of things yet to come, the wrath of the Lamb.It may well come to that, that you must be removed because of your bent's towards accusations and insinuations and swipes at others character here not to mention this site and\\or this forum that you would wish to denounce because of your particular leanings. Will leave off with this admonition;Tit 3:8 Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men: Tit 3:9 but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies, and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Tit 3:10 A factious man after a first and second admonition refuse; Tit 3:11 knowing that such a one is perverted, and sinneth, being self-condemned. The ball is in your court, one last time.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ...I am amazed and saddened at how this little discussion about a film has turned into such a heated debate! Over the years, I have noticed a troubling pattern in these forums. Often, when individuals and groups are debating an issue, the debate turns into an argument. The argument turns into anger. The anger leads to hurt feelings. But I have also noticed that many people “defend” their faith using strange methods of defense. Often, such individuals state (or usually, imply) the following:1.\tTruly “discerning” and “mature” individuals will always agree with me.2.\tIf you really sought God, then you would listen to what I have to say.3.\tI know what you’re really trying to say…4.\tI know that I am right because “God told me” these things.5.\tSource? I read this in a book (or website) somewhere…6.\tYou don’t agree with me? You are probably deceived!7.\tHow can you not believe me? Are you blind?!?8.\tI know that you are referring to me with your post…9.\tI know that this brother is not really a Christian…Brothers and sisters, we all are strongly opinionated about the things that we feel certain of. However, we must arrive to a point where we can all defend our faith without using such methods that reek of insensitivity or a lack of knowledge! I have noticed that a lot of our “defense” for a position we hold in a matter of doctrine or faith often turns into an "attack" on the opposing viewpoint. So how are we supposed to “defend” or “promote” our views and beliefs? We must realize that it is okay to disagree – as long as we are honest in our disagreement. If someone doesn’t agree with what we feel strongly about, let us remember that we too were at a place where we did not understand what we feel so “certain” of now. And we still knew Christ – even then! If we try to convince a brother or sister of something in a matter or doctrine, then explain why you came to your belief with love, using whatever primary sources that convinced you. We must also be careful not to be prideful in our perceived “knowledge.” Remember, “God opposes the proud…” Also remember the lesson of Paul’s “thorn in the flesh.” ”And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.” – II Corinthians 12:7We all come from various backgrounds. Some of us have been in the faith for a long time. Some of us are pliable newborn babes. Some of us come from various differing opinions in matters of doctrine or belief. But it seems that we can comfortably say that most of us are truly seeking to know the heart of God – because we are visiting a site that isn’t for the weak-hearted. As for this film, I plan on watching it sometime this week (perhaps tonight). Yes, it troubles me that one of the actors chosen to portray a main character might be a homosexual activist. But do we say the same about the carpenters that built our homes or church buildings? Do we feel the same way about Christian books or music that is owned by secular publishing companies where the CEO is a homosexual or heterosexual adulterer -- or where they publish other works that are considered filthy? The same can be said about our clothes, computers, food, appliances, etc.. Perhaps a homosexual actor was chosen without knowledge of his homosexuality. Or perhaps, as some have pointed out, there are not too many believers in the profession. Don't get me wrong, I make no concessions for the sin of homosexuality. If this actor indeed practices and advocates such sin, then he will be accountable to God's judgment in that matter. But just like David Wilkerson used two unsaved gang members to pick up the offering in his NY city street rally -- this actor's life may be changed by the love of God displayed by true Christians. ”By this shall all men know that ye are My Disciples, if ye have Love one for another.” – John 13:35 :-)

Haven't posted in a really long time... Hello again everyone. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents on End of Spear. EVERYONE at my church has LOVED it!! I haven't gone to see it yet (having a four-month-old and a four-year-old sometimes complicates going to see movies), but I can't wait till it comes out on video.I can see there's quite the controversy going on here. :) Well, well, well... Neilgin1, I've always admired your fervor for Christ (yes, I read a lot more than I post). Now, I have nothing to do with the issues at hand, but I do have one thought that may be helpful: When someone is older than you (in the Lord, or in age), they are usually wiser than you. This does not always necessarily mean they are right, but they deserve your RESPECT and their words deserve your CAREFUL CONSIDERATION.Phebe

This is from an article by Becky McLendon. Thought it might relate: _________________ The LORD spoke to me in 1996: "Let the revivals begin!" I got all excited and waited for the "glory to fall!" Then He said to me, "Prepare to have your theology shaken. Prepare to have every thing that can BE shaken shaken. "And the glory began falling.What do we have? A MESS within the church.Flesh trying to rise up and stand in the midst of His glory.Flesh trying to get recognition and be exalted by Him,in Whose presence no flesh can even stand!Flesh has been crying out to see Him and "feel" His presence for years,thinking somehow this "revival" will make IT look good.We are Lazarus.We have been dead and the body "stinketh",and now suddenly the LORD summons us out of the grave.And we emerge and say, "THIS is revival????"Many want to crawl back into the grave of security."Wake us up when the glory falls," they grumble.We clutch our smelly garments like smelly security blankies.After all the grave clothes fit us better than these new garmentsthe Lord has for us to put on.Welcome to revival!Revival is MESSY as we stumble out of our tomb,the smelly graveclothes falling off of us,and the rotten decay of the flesh is quitel evident.We look at each other and hold our noses pointing at the "other guy"and saying"You stink. You can't possibly be of God."Accusations, criticisms and false judgements reach their PEAK during revival.Why?Something is coming to LIFE in that which was deadand every fiber of our being is set on edge."What do you MEAN, all that I ever learned in Sunday schoolis not necessarily the truth?""HOW dare you.""What do you MEAN, lay down MY MINISTRY."" Do you dare suggest I might need to REPENT?NO WAY..I am under grace."On and on the "revival" goes.Bringing to Newness of Life, that which is dead.Welcome to revival!

Sorry Annie. Yes, the movie (story) is very accurate. My daughter Arielle is almost finished with the book Through Gates of Splendor- which the movie is based on, as well as the documentary. And she says it is almost exact.I would recommend anyone to sse it! It simplifies things (the gospel) in no uncertain terms. One of the tribal women who escaped when she was younger and came to know Christ- eventually goes back with the missionaries and explains the gospel in the only way she knows how and the only way the tribal people would understand: This "God" they believed exhisted (his name begins with a W in their langauge) She says to them that 'W' had a Son who came to earth and died so that they could live. That if they follow His 'markings' (which would mean His writings) then they would know how to live. That 'W' doesn't want them killing each other. It is wrong.I mean, you've got to understand where these tribal people have come from and what they have believed before hand. They had no sense of right or wrong really- they made their own rules and this results in them killing each other when they feel the need to kill- for what ever reason. They were soon to be extinct. They had no 'map' of how to live rightly.There is no doubting that the changing power of God was active among the tribal people after Elisabeth Elliot, her young daughter and a few other missionary women went to live with these violent Indians. The indians couldn't understand why these women would want to. It confounded them. The power of God and the power of forgiveness and love began a slow change among them all.The story is incredible. Even younger children (probably not younger than 10) will be moved immensely by the sacrifice made by all the missionaries- as well as the forgiveness. You can try to explain forgiveness to a child or even sacrifice- but until they've seen it and experienced it right in front of their eyes(as on screen) there is not much comparison.Indeed actions speak louder than any words in this movie. We all know the gospel, we all know about forgiveness. But the lives of these missionaries acted out on screen shows in 'living color' what it all means.In Him, Chanin

It would seem that this thread could nicely conclude here with the uplifting words of MeAgain at thread number 100.However, as I’ve been praying, I sense that there is a new level of perseverance that God would like to take us through. I posted, “Welcome to revival” and I’m sure you all thought I was a bit “off the wall”. But I’m dead serious. I believe that God is letting us learn about ourselves, each other, and himself in order to refine us and bring us closer to him. I believe that Satan would prefer to sabotage our journey to the cross by keeping us in a superficial state of conformity. Krispy pointed out that the movie company likely took advantage of a volatile gay issue, knowing that would be worth millions. (Haven’t we done a great job providing free advertising!) But I believe that God will not be outdone. As I said earlier, the gay issue is merely the vehicle (stage) on which God does his work of grace in his people – that’s you and me, not necessarily the actors or the gay community. Here’s a personal example of a good outworking: I’ve had a tendency to view Krispy as a bit too crispy for me. We exchanged a few sweet words, and I must admit, I love him more dearly now than ever. We agree on a lot of things. Mike, I sense that you feel a deep responsibility to keep the “ship” from tipping when you feel it rocking. You have a big challenge of finding the fine line between holding on to the steering wheel and leaving room for the Spirit, between controlling it and leading it. I can relate as a parent. I’ve often had a fear of being too permissive if I let my kids (or husband) fail. But sometimes my overzealous parenting/wifing backfired.You indicated your concern of people taking offense. I have come to believe that, while we should be sensitive of others, we can’t let people’s offenses, including our own control everyone. Each person must take personal responsibility of their fears and insecurities. It is a journey to the cross, and we can’t protect people from the pain of it. I see very little point in trying to present a “good” testimony. Non-Christians have a way of seeing right through our polish. We are what we are, and trying too hard to make us better only makes us worse. Am I right?For all my church-life I have felt squelched by those who fear “divisiveness” as soon as someone gets upset or questions anything. So I learned to play the game, and shut my mind and mouth. Lots of people do that. But in doing so it only breeds inner sins – like anger, resentment, or fosters gossip and backbiting. So, I get a bit edgy when I sense that surfacing here. As I said, often our reaction is not towards anyone here, but to something in our past. I’m guilty of that. I think that when Jesus caused a stir, he was really giving the people a chance to receive mercy. I suspect he is behind a lot of stirs even today. Ongoing challenges: - Learning to balance theological correctedness with relational empathy - Recognizing our own blindspots rather than focusing on the sins of others. - Learning to spot our hypocrisy. - Learning what it means to love the homosexuals so that they see Christ in us. Diane