President George Bush, Christian or foe?

He has taken upon himself the responsibilities of a nation. As such, his role is to represent the interests of his country as best he can with the knowledge he currently has - even though it may be unpopular. As such, he is in a scenario where representing the nation and deciding as such to the best of his abilities means protecting the liberties on which it was founded, as well as respecting the role in which it was created.What does this mean? This means for him to impose a viewpoint such as his ability to dictate law upon the citizens of this nation would be overstepping his bounds and in direct violation of the second ammendment.Aside from that, there is a base set up called "checks and balances." The executive branch, ala the president and his staff, are there to oversee and make the necessary small judgements of day-to-day life that keeps this country from chaos. He is also there to influence laws and relate with nations other than his own. The executive branch also holds the most influence over the military.Congress, on the other hand, dictates laws and has the political check to make sure that the president doesn't abuse his military stature. They are the only ones that can declare war.Now for the judicial branch... the judicial branch is the branch of government which (no kidding) judges laws. They solely are the ones which decide if laws are against the constitutional rights of Americans, and they interpret what they are supposed to mean. It is not their right to dictate law, but since the mid '50's, this has occured on quite a few occasions. The concept that displaying Christian literature is against the constitutional rights of Americans is soley at the feet of this branch. They can't make this decision on a whim, cases have to be pressed and brought to them in order for it to have any impact. Also, the check against this branch is the weakest. Congress has to almost unilaterally vote against said judges for any possibility of removing them... there is no check for overturning their judgements (which in recent days have become akin to the constitution itself - ala separation of church and state.)Congress aproves of supreme court justices, so the public's greatest control over this branch is through electing good men and women to represent us. Lower level court justices also have to retire or be pressed from office, at which point election can replace them, and civic judges can be elected on terms.What does this all mean? Well, we can blame the President for correctly doing his job and continue in our grief and persecution, or we can attempt to stand against it somehow... Yet it still remains our responsibility.I hate civic lessons. Most of this stuff is taught in highschools and most of us Americans just forget it. Most foreigners just don't have much of a clue.Aside from all of this, even in a predominantly American board, I would encourage all those of you who are not American and would wish to attack the stance of our national leader to consider that it is biblical for us to respect this man. You would also not like us to attack your country. I have sat in places where I have witnessed first-hand that everyone thinks it perfectly acceptable to debatingly attack America yet reiterates with anger when their country of origin is considered. It is not polite, and I daresay (especially for us Christians) not fitting to do so without a thorough understanding of the matter. History and discussion are one thing. Opinions and viewpoints based on quick observation represent something completely different, hence this quick little civic lesson.

The question I think should be: CAN a president of America be a christian with ALL that he knows?

As Christians we're supposed to respect the authorities placed over us by the Lord Himself. And since He places all authorities over us, whether or not those people are "good" or "evil", we're to respect George Bush insofar as his being president is concerned.However, it's our very same Lord that tells us we're supposed to judge the character of people by inspecting their fruit if we're to know whether or not they're true brothers or sisters in Christ... or the wolves in sheep's clothing Jesus warned us over and over again to watch out for. I'm aware that as a follower of Jesus I'm not supposed to pass judgment on people; He's the only one who knows the heart and can judge. But, we are commanded to make judgements about people so we can know whether or not they're the sheep or the wolves.All that to say, my answer to you're initial question about GW Bush is this: I pray for him and respect his position as president and leader of our nation. I pray the Holy Spirit leads him in every decision he makes. But, by inspecting his fruit, the man is a foe, i.e. not a true Christian. Inspect his fruit and you'll find out the reason he can and does say he's "born again" is because he practices freemasonry, a satanic religion, a dark society within a mask of a light society. Their ritual of initiation involves being laid in a coffin with human bones (symbolizing death to their old self) and then coming out later (symbolizing being born again).Inspect the fruit. Thank God Most High I live in a country and society where I can still say that about its leader and not be executed.God bless you all!

crferguson,How do you know or what proof President Bush is a Mason?? I agree with you that being a Mason is evil.Brent

-I was a 32nd degree Freemason years ago (before becoming a Christian). I was never placed in a coffin with human bones, but I agree that the society practices satanic rituals. The outward appearance looks good (usually does), but history shows instances where people have literally gotten away with murder because of their Masonic connections..-Thank God for full salvation...

-..By the way, I would be surprised if President Bush was involved in Freemasonry, because: 1.) He speaks of his faith specifically in Jesus Christ. Freemasons who make any reference to God at all refer to (quite generically) "The Supreme Grand Architect of the Universe." 2.) Mr. Bush doesn't seem to get support from others involved in Freemasonry..

When I was a pastor in Indiana I had a board member and Sunday school teacher who was a full mason, and NO one new. I had some elderly man tell me that he new a man in our church who was a mason. Then After I approached this mason he told me of another elder in our church who was a mason- O Man! My point is these masons said they were christians of course. Guess who were my thorns in the flesh their??

To find information on GWB being involved in that, just dig around the net a little. It's easy to find enough evidence, videos, audios etc.Also, someone at his level in world politics is certainly going to play both sides of the field, so of course he's going to do things that make him appear "Christian". He wants your vote. He still needs your tax dollars and not to be impeached before he finishes his job. Oh, and don't even get me started on his stance towards Israel =) He wants to divide the Holy Land in the name of peace. Um... anyway... no I'm not tagging him the AC, but he certainly isn't helping things out.About the mason who never laid with the bones, my bad, that's the Skull and Bones society that does that, also of which GW and his father are members of. They take an oath that's so strong it forsakes any other oath they will ever take and it nullifies any oath they've ever taken before. Also, notice he talks about Jesus being an inspiration, but never his savior. Please post the 80's testimony if you can find it. That would be a hoot.God bless him and please pull him from the fire. Grant him wisdom to lead America back to the Light of Jesus. In Jesus' name... amen.

Hi crferguson...!To find information on GWB being involved in that, just dig around the net a little. It's easy to find enough evidence, videos, audios etc.First of all, you might want to include some credible sources with "video and audio evidence." However, you should be quite careful about the "evidence" that you find online. If you search hard enough, you can find all sorts of "evidence" about things like Bigfoot, UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, the jackalope, the Bermuda Triangle, the Kennedy conspiracy and even "men digging a hole to hell." Such "evidence" is often nothing more than the overzealous intentions of devout followers of "strange phenomenon." On the other hand, some evidence is actually the result of deception. And let us remember who the "father of lies" is. And of course, real evidence is based upon a credible firsthand source.Also, someone at his level in world politics is certainly going to play both sides of the field, so of course he's going to do things that make him appear "Christian". He wants your vote. He still needs your tax dollars and not to be impeached before he finishes his job. Oh, and don't even get me started on his stance towards Israel =) He wants to divide the Holy Land in the name of peace. Um... anyway... no I'm not tagging him the AC, but he certainly isn't helping things out.That is quite a bit of speculation. This is the strangest "phenomenon" that I have seen online in the last year -- a "conspiracy" about the President of the United States. Now, you are not only questioning his testimony of being born again -- you are mentioning that he could possibly be the anti-Christ. That is a really strong allegation to even consider without evidence.About the mason who never laid with the bones, my bad, that's the Skull and Bones society that does that, also of which GW and his father are members of. They take an oath that's so strong it forsakes any other oath they will ever take and it nullifies any oath they've ever taken before. Also, notice he talks about Jesus being an inspiration, but never his savior. Please post the 80's testimony if you can find it. That would be a hoot.I have several friends that were members of "secret societies" before they were born again. They have "spilled the beans" about what the organizations, including their rituals and intent. In the end, they were all (including two members of the "Skull and Bones") silly fraternities filled with adolescent college guys that liked to party with each other, or guys that hoped belonging to such an organization might help them get a job in the future. Of course, such organizations are wrong. The Word of God tells us to "avoid even the very appearance of evil." However, is it right to judge a person because of an organization that they belonged to when they were 19 years old? If that were the case, then we would have to exclude tax collectors (like Matthew), Pharisees (like Paul), or gang leaders (like Nicky Cruz). I don't want to sound like I am "defending" President Bush. It is just perplexing to see the extent that some believers will go to make open-ended accusations that go so far as to question his relationship with God. I just feel that someone needs to make a stand against any such open-ended accusations that sometimes flood the message boards. Just "speaking up" for the President often draws alot of fire (which I really like to avoid). But I feel saddened in my heart when people so easily make such accusations without giving any possibility of being wrong in this.I am not a Republican (nor a Democrat). I am a Christian. But I did vote for President Bush. Why? Well, not because he was a "christian" or not. I don't think any of us can or will know the truth about that. President Bush openly says he is born again. But only the Lord knows for certain. However, I voted for him because he was the closest credible candidate that could make the strongest stand against certain evils in society like abortion, aborted-fetus embryo stem-cell research, or homosexual "marriage." While a few believers have questioned how honestly he stands opposed to abortion, President Bush did nominate two justices to the Supreme Court who are quite likely to vote against such the evil, murderous practice. The title of this thread is "President George Bush, Christian or foe?" Why do we need so many threads and posts that openly accuse or question this man's relationship with God? Why can't we have a thread requesting prayer for this man? The Bible says: "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." (Proverbs 21:1). God can move in the heart of President Bush -- whether he is a believer or not. Let us join in prayer that the Lord will touch his heart, and fellowship with him, even as we know that the Lord desires! He is able! :-) By the way, here is a couple of links about the often reported "testimony" of President Bush. It would be interesting to find the actual and initial source of this, and see if it is indeed credible.http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A19253-2001Dec23?language=printerhttp://www.intervarsity.org/ism/news/1083http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1999/03/17/http://chaplains.iphc.org/stories/bush.htmlhttp://www.prayercalendar.com/pray4bush/testimony.php

Let us keep some scriptures in view when we talk about our president. 1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.For us the president1 Tim 2:1-3 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;2 Peter 2:10-12 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;Defenition of dignities:The respect and honor associated with an important position. A high office or rank.The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.

President Bush does NOT show the fruit of being a genuine born again Christian. George Bush has pushed Israel into giving away her covenant land. In Oct 2004 he said Christians and muslims worship the same God. He said there are many paths to God. He is for homosexual unions. He never refers to Jesus. Jesus said if you deny Me before men I will deny YOU before My Father in Heaven. Bush denies Jesus Christ. He's not a Christian, but in name only. This is from what I have seen. Just because he's a republican and professed to be a Christian in 2000 does mean he is. I've never heard him even say he was a Christian. He's a snake.

Since this discussion is an attempt to discern whether a man is a Christian or not, it would seem right to check our definition of “Christian”, since just about anything and everyone that bears some resemblance to the religion is quickly labeled “Christian”.In 1 John it says that what one claims about themselves means nothing unless it is backed by their life. 1 John was written especially to help us learn to distinguish between authentic faith and unauthentic faith. Here are a few references: 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth,This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.” Examine the life of Christ to know how he lived. Some points to consider: How did he respond to the needy?What was his life style like?What was his status in his community and church?What did he teach - regarding our relationship with others and with God? What did he teach about self-defence? What did he practice?Is true faith measured by how one takes a stand on issues, or by submission to Christ? Is it about defending land and possessions, or about loving God and people? What about self-sacrifice? "He (Christ) must increase, I must decrease." What would be the evidence of Christ increasing?I guess these would be standards for anyone who claims to be his followers. In view of Scripture, do you think GWB passes the test? Jesus said, “He who is not for me is against me.” Diane

Good word Diane!In view of Scripture, do you think GWB passes the test?It is pretty easy to see he fails the test miserably :-o

Please post the 80's testimony if you can find it. That would be a hoot.It is pretty easy to see he fails the test miserably Are these words that come from a heart of an intercessor?1 Tim 2:1-3 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority;I admit that I do not pray enough for our president.James 4:11,12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?romans 14:4,10,12 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 2 Corinthians 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Psalm 39:12Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears:

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1Jn 3:10 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 1 Jn 4:5Set your hearts on things above, not on earthly things...This earth will pass away...along with our fleshly efforts and achievements.... like hay, wood, and stubble. Diane

It is pretty easy to see he fails the test miserably Are these words that come from a heart of an intercessor?Intercessors are in tune to reality, no matter how painful and unsettling it may feel. For example: Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel.... Habbakuk Hredii, Do you feel that it is wrong to judge? "Teach me knowledge and GOOD judgment." Ps. 119:66"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things."1Co.2:15We are required to learn how to distinguish: - right from wrong, - good from bad, - truth from deception, - genuine from counterfeit Scripture gives us clear guidelines by which we can judge. If we adhere to Scripture, then we will not be led astray. "Judge carefully; for with the Lord there is no injustice, or partiality, or bribery." 2 Chron. 19: 7"Judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Prov. 31:9 I'd say that fair judgments would be an indication of a true believer. Diane

Hi roadsign...!Since this discussion is an attempt to discern whether a man is a Christian or not, it would seem right to check our definition of “Christian”, since just about anything and everyone that bears some resemblance to the religion is quickly labeled “Christian”....This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.” ...Examine the life of Christ to know how he lived.Some points to consider: How did he respond to the needy?What was his life style like?What was his status in his community and church?What did he teach - regarding our relationship with others and with God? What did he teach about self-defence? What did he practice?Is true faith measured by how one takes a stand on issues, or by submission to Christ? Is it about defending land and possessions, or about loving God and people? What about self-sacrifice? "He (Christ) must increase, I must decrease." What would be the evidence of Christ increasing?I guess these would be standards for anyone who claims to be his followers. In view of Scripture, do you think GWB passes the test? Jesus said, “He who is not for me is against me.” I fear that if you are going to follow the "letter of the Law" with such a measuring stick of faith, then we all would fail such a test (at least every once in a while). If those that openly and loudly criticize the President (who claims to be born-again) were to apply this same "test" to their own lives -- then perhaps they might also worry about their own salvation.I have noticed this attribute in many Christian circles now. As believers, we are often very quick to pass judgment on someone. I know that I have also been guilty of this. We see someone that doesn't "see the light" as we understand the light, and we are ready to dismiss such a person as a "heretic." There are many issues on this board that are highly debated. They often end in controversy and hurt feelings. Not a single one of us is "infallible." Perhaps we should be very careful about passing such final judgment upon a man that claims to be born again. Why? "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:2 :-)

If those that openly and loudly criticize the President (who claims to be born-again) were to apply this same "test" to their own lives -- then perhaps they might also worry about their own salvation.Amen, Brother! We must take the log out of our own eyes before we can properly assess anyone else. However, stardust in our eyes doesn't lead us down the right track either. God calls us to put our trust in Him, and in no man (whether born again or not). That is the real issue, is it not? In the end, only God can save us, and if we are deluded about our own salvation (which many are), we will perish. Are you sure you are saved? It's more important to know the truth about our own standing with God. Diane

I read alot on the posts about judging and being wrong so forth. Alot of Christians need to know what biblical judgement is and isnt. There is a biblical book called "To judge or not judge" by lillian Harvey ie, Harvey publishing.

Christians need to know what biblical judgement is and isntFor sure. There is good judging and bad judging. That's why Scripture seems to contradict: "Judge carefully", "Do not judge", "Judge between your servants", "Stop passing judgment on one another", "Judge for yourself", "make a right judgment"…For explanations see: JudgingThe best antidote for bad judging is good judging.

Lets not worry about if he is christian or not lets pray for him. Thats what matters.

Here is the website: www.harveycp.com To Judge or Not to Judge by, E.F. & L. Harvey-72pages-$4.50A timely publication, emphasizing the need and duty of right judgment. The subject is analyzed thoroughly from a Biblical standpoint. Personal experiences are included, together with articles by Bishop Ryle and Phillips Brooks, in order to help the reader to determine whether “to judge or not to judge”.www.harveycp.com

edit

Enough of this.Forget your opinions and stop and think about just what this amounts to. This site is not a bandwagon for launching off on political commentary, take it somewhere else.There are many brethren here represented by any number of countries and it get's quite wearying to hear all this flippant, worthless trash talking. Where are the issues of India, of Sweden, of the U.K. and their goverments? Their voices are silent here and almost always are. Take a look through the history of this forum and see if any of the past discussions of this sort have any worthwhile value other than exposing the rotteness of the still sinful heart.Judgement with wrong judgement. Who do we think we are anyway? This is not about support or non-support, but about the audacity of some to suppose they have no pride, nor no plank in their own eye to deal with.