"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is One! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart." Would God command His people to do this, and not provide a way for the His people to obey His command? Paul teaches, "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God." Romans 3:10-11 We know by Hebrews chapter 11, that there were faithful men and women who lived before Jesus' incarnation. Faith defined their lives. Paul teaches that, "...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17Paul also teaches that, "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14.Final question, how do these thoughts that I have shared affect the teaching of dispensational theology?As iron sharpen ironJeff
"You shall love the Lord"
A.W. Tozer taught that the Old Testament saints were born again. Sermon, Holy Spirit-Why some can't recieve...Maybe this will stir some thought.As iron sharpens iron.Jeff
A.W. Tozer taught that the Old Testament saints were born againThis is a concept that I could never understand and am surprised that so many teach it. Undoubtedly the OT saints had faith (which is the assurance of things hoped for) Many enjoyed a relationship with God, many were anointed by the Spirit for a purpose. But none of this constitutes the new birth. The Holy Spirit is now given in a way that did not happen in the OT. Jesus said; "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:38-39 Stuart
John 7:38-39Does this verse apply to Jesus' ministry on earth? "but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:7-8"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines, For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them." Hebrews 13:8-9As iron sharpens iron.Jeff
Jeff wrote:John 7:38-39Does this verse apply to Jesus' ministry on earth? Some years ago my 10 year old daughter was invited to a birthday party. She was very excited and dressed in a special party dress. We arrived at the destination and knocked on the door. I could see immediately by the surprise on the face of the person who opened the door that something was wrong."are we too early," I asked. "You are a week too early" came the answer.It is very important to check the date on an invitation card. This 'come and drink' invitation has a very clear date. According to our verses given, when He made the invitation He was referring to the Holy Spirit, who was not yet 'given' because Jesus was not yet glorified.Peter's answer to the question "what meaneth this?" in Acts 2 is that because Christ has been 'exalted' He has received the promise of the Spirit and has poured forth this... As I see these scriptures Pentecost has to be the date on the invitation.
Many enjoyed a relationship with God, many were anointed by the Spirit for a purpose. But none of this constitutes the new birth.So, you mean to tell me the circumicised heart of an OT saint did not constitute the new birth? If a person has an intimate relationship with God, how can they not be born again? How can they not be partakers? OT saints were born again, and had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost only constitutes a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit, with such a magnitude as never seen prior.
The work of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was given to empower the Apostle for the work God has planned. The Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus, witnessed by John the Baptist. Did Jesus need to be born again? To have a relationship with God requires the work of the Holy Spirit first. Please read my thoughts posted today on original sin. Galatians 5:28-29, "Now WE, brethren, as ISAAC WAS, ARE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him WHO WAS BORN ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, even so it is now."As iron sharpens ironJeff
preachingtocanibals wrote:So, you mean to tell me the circumicised heart of an OT saint did not constitute the new birth? If a person has an intimate relationship with God, how can they not be born again? How can they not be partakers? Rom 4 asks the question 'what was Abraham's experience' and the remainder of the chapter answers the question. Abraham was justified by faith. As expanded/expounded by David that included 'inquities remitted', 'sins covered (atoned), 'sin not reckoned'. The end of the chapter widens it to show that we are not only talking about Abraham but about all who 'believe in Him'; all these folk experience what Abraham experienced.Chap 5 starts where Chap 4 finished; justified by faith, and adds that we have 'peace with God' through Christ. The passage then continues by whom also. We are about to be introduced to the much more (4 times in this chapter)of the New Covenant. It includes 'access by faith into this grace in which we stand.Romans 4 is the grace that Abraham found. Romans 5 is this grace that we find. It is everything that Abraham found, and much more. This is the grace that should come unto you, prophesied but not entered by the prophets of old [1 Pet 1:12] which is apparantly inseparable from the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven.The Holy Spirit did not only come to empower them to do, but to indwell them with the life of Christ so that they might be. The One who had been with them would be in them.
Are we children of the same promise?In Christ Jeff
So, you mean to tell me the circumicised heart of an OT saint did not constitute the new birth? I do. The new birth is very closly related to Christ's ressurection. Before the ressurection of Christ people were not born from above. John the baptist had the Spirit, had a ministry and in fact was greater than anyone else born of a woman. But the least in the kingdom is greater than he. Was John not in the kingdom? To enter the kingdom which is from above you must first be born from above.
Jeff wrote Are we children of the same promise?Hebrews 11 contains a long list of men and women who believed God, and who had the witness that they were righteous [Heb 11:4 etc] To ensure that we do not mistake what is being said here we are talking about the righteousness which is by faith [Heb 11:7]However, Hebrews 11 concludes with And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfectThey were 'justified' and had 'witness borne to them through their faith' and yet they received not the promiseSurely there could not be a clearer statement than they 'received not the promise'.However, to forestall questions about whether or not they were 'saved' or 'went to heaven' I would draw attention to But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb 12:22-24They city that they 'looked for', we have 'arrived at', only to find that they are already there, now 'made perfect'. For them, eternal life was a future prospect, for us it is a present tense reality. As we read earlier God having provided some better thing concerning us
My question is refering to Galatians 4:28-29. "NOW WE brethren, AS Isaac WAS are children of promise. But as he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was BORN ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, even so it is now."To place this into context, Paul is writing to the Galatians, who began in the Spirit but now were trying to become perfect by the flesh. In this chapter, Paul is addressing those under the law and those born from above. Is this promise that Isaac and we share, the same promise that is spoken of in Hebrews 11:11?In addressing your thoughts Ron, on Romans 5, and expressing that the new covenant is much more than the old. I agree, the old covenant made nothing perfect and this covenant does not anull the covenant that was made with Abraham 430 prior. "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years LATER, CANNOT ANNUL THE COVENANT that was confirmed before by God IN CHRIST, THAT IT SHOULD MAKE THE PROMISE OF NO EFFECT." Galatians 3:17 Please understand that both covenants existed together for a time. The law of Mount Sinai made 430 years later, does not effect the promise made through Abraham in Christ Jesus. Please focus on these words, "That it should make the promise of no effect." Paul is saying that the promise had effect on those of the old testament. The law of Mount Sinai was given to a nation to teach them about sin. The law of faith was introduced to Abraham which teaches us about God.Finally, the idea of being made perfect. With the blood of Christ everyone who lived by the law of faith was made perfect. You are correct that the sins were only covered prior to Christ's blood. In Chapter 3 of Romans, Paul addresses this issue. "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to DEMONSTRATE His righteousness, because in His FORBEARANCE GOD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED,..." Romans 3:25. Like wise Hebrews 9:26, addresses the same precept,"He then would have had to suffer OFTEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Why would the author state that Jesus would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world. What is his point? In Christ Jeff
Jeff,You may be talking about Galatians and the Old (Sinai) Covenant but Hebrews is talking about people who were pre-Sinai as well as post. Justification crosses all covenants and reaches people who are not even in covenants. Hebrews' 'better thing' is not just a contrast with Sinai saints but with Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah too. Romans 5 is not a contrast with the Old Covenant but with Abraham before he was in any covenant.To understand what Paul means by 'according to Spirit' we need to remember that he is talking about a time when Isaac was just weaned. Ancient weaning was later than modern, but 2-3years would be the outside limit. Do you think Isaac was 'born again' when he was 3 years old?Isaac was born in direct consequence of the promise and in that sense his birth was 'according to Spirit' as distinct from Ishmael who was 'according to flesh'. But this is not a reference to regeneration but to the Spirit's initiation. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. in each case 'of' is 'ek' meaning 'out of' indicating origin. This is regeneration. according to Spirit is 'kata' meaning with reference to. This is not regeneration.
Hi Ron, Let me ask this question in another way. "How then can man be righteous before God? How then can he be pure who is born of woman? If even the moon does not shine, and the stars are not purein His sight, how much less man, who is a maggot, and a son of man, who is a worm?" Job 25:4-6The answer to this question is found in Job 33:26, "He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, he shall see His face with joy, for He RESTORES to man HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.'If Job was a maggot or worm, is it possible for him to know God? Is it possible that God would delight in a depraved man who cannot obey Him? The work of God is that He restores to man His righteousness. This precept is not only in words of legality but this precept brings about a change in the depraved man. It has effect. The promise made to Abraham has effect.Back at you,Jeff
Jeffyou wrote The work of God is that He restores to man His righteousness. If you are distinguishing between imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness, I am with you. But imputed righteousness is what is effected by justification by faith. Imparted righteousness, the gift of righteousness brings us back to Romans 5 again. [Rom 5:17] which chapter also includes the phrase that through the obedience of one shall many be constituted righteousCovering, remission of sins, not keeping an account of sins, righteousness reckoned to my account, is all the blessing of the God who justifies the ungodly. Now we are back in Romans 4. This is what Abraham found. Abraham's faith was 'reckoned' to him for righteousness. Abraham had many wonderful blessings but his 'constitution' was never changed.This is where the New Covenant starts too, but it goes much farther. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezek 36:26ff. This is imparted righteousness, and this is new covenant.Only God on the inside, I will put my spirit within you, could accomplish this. And God on the inside is the distinguishing feature of the New Covenant. but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The God of glory revealed Himself to Abraham. [Acts 7] but Paul's testimony is authentic New Covenant it pleased God to reveal His son in me [Gal 1]
Hi Ron, Imputed righteousness I agree with your explanation. Imparted righteousness I agree with your explanation. However, I have not heard, based on Scripture why the work of the Holy Spirit is not the same always. You see, according to Scripture, the Father is the same always, the Son is the same always, so is not the Spirit the same always. I ask this question in context of my post on original sin. No one has responded to my post, what do you say?back at youin ChristJeff
JeffI'll go back and take another look.
However, I have not heard, based on Scripture why the work of the Holy Spirit is not the same always. You see, according to Scripture, the Father is the same always, the Son is the same always, so is not the Spirit the same always. True, Jesus Christ the same yeterday, today and forever. But this does not mean his work is always the same in evry age. It means God's character is the same at all times. A man sets out to build a house, he is always the same man, and always has the same ultimate goal but at different times his work is different; foundation, plastering, roofing etc.God is not always creating. Jesus is not always dying, the holy Spirit was not always been available to indwell man. They have not changed but the work in progres at the moment has. When Jesus walked the earth he submitted to the cival authorities of his day. When he comes again, they will submit to him. Once Jesus was the Word in the bosom of the Father, at one time he was a baby in Mary's arms, another time dead and buried, but now ascended to the right hand of the Father in the glory. Same Lord.
When I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same always, I was speaking in terms of how God chose to reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The priestly order of Melchizedec continues forever. "But this man, because he contunueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:24In ChristJeff
When I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same always, I was speaking in terms of how God chose to reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit. The priestly order of Melchizedec continues forever. "But this man, because he contunueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:24Fair enough, but did you not have a question about the work of the Holy Spirit being different in the OT than in the NT?
Hi almondbranch, I posed the question to bring response. Who could only fill the position of the order of Melchizedec in the Old Testament? Back at youIn ChristJeff
Hi Jeff, can you elaborate? I am not entirely certain as to what you are asking. Is it in connection with people being born again in the OT, and the work of the Spirit at that time? or is this somthing else?Thank you, and sorry if I am asking a stupid question I have just lost the train of thought.Stuart.
Hi Stuart,I believe that the law of faith which justifies man before God was established since Genesis 3:15. The One who occupies the priestly order of Melchizedec is Jesus Christ. Prior to the incarnation of Christ, Jesus is Melchizedec. No one but God could officiate as high priest in the order of Melchizedec. Only Jesus the mediator of the new covenant could offer those who say, Yes Lord, the righteousness which comes from above. One can only be born from above a second time. What does the order of Melchizedec have to offer the elect? "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts: and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.' Hebrews 8:10-11. This is the offering that is identified as specific to the order of Melchizedec. The order of Melchizedec had no beginning and no end. All are condemned by the removal of God's righteousness from man when Adam fell. Jesus the second man came to restore His righteousness in those who believe. Those who says Yes Lord. There have always been a remnant througout the generations who are born from above. Otherwise faith would could not exist in depraved man. What do you sayin Christ Jeff
Hi Jeff thanks for calrifying.You are basicaly saying that Christ was administering the new covenant during the period before his death to all who believed, and that the faith they had was proof of this because only the regenerate have faith. Would that be your view?Instead of saying that man needs to be regenerate to have faith the bible would seem to say that man needs faith to be born again. You might say that this faith is given by God soverignly, that's fine, but still if a depraved man can be given faith for regeneration he can be given faith for imputed righteousness. Melchizedek's dealings with Abraham may well foreshadow the New Covenant but I don't believe that this covenant was in effect at the same time as the old. It is prophesied about in the old "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" The "this is that" of the day of pentecost is refering to somthing that was to come and had now come. What was it?Stuart
Hi brother Stuart,Jesus teaches us in John 3, that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. SO IS EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." John 3:8 I believe we have made much of this idea of being born again. We ask a new convert did you experience something, do you feel different? These same people will say that because you had the experience you therefore are born again. Then they teach that once you had that experience you are the elect. Now I believe there is some truth in all of that. And I say this in regards to your thought:Instead of saying that man needs to be regenerated to have faith the Bible would seem to say that man needs faith to be born again...I prefer the translation of born again, to be more correct in saying that we are born from above. As I believe Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, no one can tell from where or when the Holy Spirit began calling us. The Holy Spirits work is to convict us of sin, to declare Jesus's righteousness, and to condemn satan. I believe the Holy Spirit works to convince everyone of their need for God. I can look back in various time in my life "before Christ" and I now can see how God was calling me. So in answer to thought, "the bible seems to say that man needs faith to be born again" I believe that God proves to us that He is. When we turn to Him because of His calling, even thought our faith is as small as a mustard seed, we begin a new life because we are born from above. God calls all. Those who say Yes Lord will find the work of our High Priest in heaven, inplanting His word into our hearts, and we will know Him. The book of Hebrews uses the word shadow whenever it speaks of the covenant on Mount Sinai. To me, the thought of shadow does not say that something does not exist. Rather the heavenly sanctuary existence is everlasting. It is only when we begin to follow Jesus does he clear the shadows away so that we can see the heavenly things. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things and you DO NOT BELIEVE, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" Only Jesus can lift the veil that prevents us from seeing the things which create the shadows of our understanding. In Christ Jeff
believe we have made much of this idea of being born again. We ask a new convert did you experience something, do you feel different? Sure, I agree. But really, we are discussing the Spirit's work, how people misrepresent it doesn't change it. :-) I prefer the translation of born again, to be more correct in saying that we are born from above. No problem. But what we are discussing is that this is somthing that God has added to us in this better covenant. Undoubtedly John the Baptist had faith in Christ but as Jesus said there is somthing more than what John had.In relation to the sahdows being of that which already existed. Aboslutely, these things existed in Christ since before the foundation of the world.I think I have some understanding of where you are coming from but I am curious to know if you think there is any difference at all in the Spirit's work since calvary.Thank you, Stuart.
The blood of Christ has opened up heaven. Prior to Jesus' sacrifice, the old testament saints lived in the bosom of Abraham. One compartment held the condemned, the other compartment the saint. We and they were made perfect by the blood. "God having provided something better for us, THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT APART FROM US." The time of the work of Christ within this world does not hold His sacrifice within our limitations of time. The work of God stands outside of His creation. John the Baptist came preaching that the kingdom was at hand. Jesus preached of the good news of the kingdom. Yet Jesus and His disciples did not teach that He would die for their sins. Search it out in the Gospels and see for yourself. "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER WOMB." What does this work of the Holy Spirit mean in terms of what is usually taught.In Christ Jeff
Jeff wrote "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER WOMB." What does this work of the Holy Spirit mean in terms of what is usually taught.John Baptist was specially equipped to do a special task. In OT terms he was a 'man of the Spirit' in the terms of that Covenant, which was an external covenant. I know of three (4) occasions in the OT (remember the NT experience begins in Acts 2) which speak of the Spirit on the inside; there may be more. The ones that spring to mind are Bezaleel and Aholiab, Ezekiel, and John Baptist. In each occasion these were standard OT experiences of the Spirit of God equipping men for unique tasks and responsibilities. There is no reference to the Spirit changing the character of these men. There is no reference to the coming of the Spirit uniting these men to God in the pattern of 'I am in my Father and my Father is in me'. On only 2 (3) occasions does the OT refer specifically to the 'Holy' Spirit, and on each occasion it is in contrast to the sinfulness of God's people. But the key revelation of the Spirit in the NT is that He is Holy. He comes in the power of the New Covenant, not primarily to empower to do, but to be. The distinctive themes of the New Covenant experience of the Spirit are1. He is with you and shall be in you. It has been said that the greatest truths of the New Testament lie in its prepositions. 2. In that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you. He could not be in them while He was
First one must BE before one can DO. God can not share His righteousness with men who have not been reconciled to Him. "My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter PURE KNOWLEDGE, the SPIRIT OF GOD HAS MADE ME, and the BREATH of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Elihu was a spiritual man."So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, HE BREATHED ON THEM, and said to them, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT." John 20;21-22 The disciples were spiritual men before Pentecost."Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."....Then He said to them,"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were writen in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. AND HE OPENED THEIR UNDERSTANDING, THAT THEY MIGHT COMPREHEND THE SCRIPTURES." Luke 24:36-45 Only through the Holy Spirit could the disciples see the spiritual things of God.Only through the Holy Spirit can man understand the things of Spirit. "These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:13. In ChristJeff
Jeff, I think you are right to connect the Jphn 20:21,22 and Luke 24:36-45 references. I think it is the same event. The significant thing is that those who 'received the Spirit' in John 20:21,22 were told to 'Tarry' in the city of Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high. This shows that Pentecost was additional to the experience of John 20:21,22There is a fascinating parallel to this in Exodus 24 where the Mediator of the Covenant goes up to God and is covered by a cloud. Prior to his ascent he says 'Tarry, ye here'. Jewish Rabbis have always associated the feast of Pentecost with the giving of the Law. In the fulfillment of the shadow we see Christ ascend, cloud covered, with his disciples commanded to 'Tarry'. Pentecost was the giving of the Law, both times. Christ received, from His Father, the promise of the Father i.e. the Spirit and poured him out on all flesh. In the reality of Pentecost the Spirit brings the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus and writes it in the hearts of his people. This Law is not a list of commands and prohibitions but a new nature.
When Elihu states, "...My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter pure knowledge, the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Is Elihu speaking of his physical existence or is he speaking of a spiritual existence? "Although MY HOUSE IS NOT SO WITH GOD, yet He has made with me AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, ordered in all things and secure, FOR THIS IS ALL MY SALVATION AND ALL MY DESIRE; will He not make it increase? But the sons of rebellion shall all be as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands." 2 Samuel 23:5-6 Is David talking about the same covenant we have? Does David include himself in this covenant? Are the sons of rebellion part of this covenant?In Christ Jeff
Hi Jeffyour quote When Elihu states, "...My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter pure knowledge, the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Is Elihu speaking of his physical existence or is he speaking of a spiritual existence? the phrase the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life is most likely a parallelism, a Hebrew poetic form where the same thing is said twice in two different ways to emphasise a point. He is claiming to have inspiration and authority equal to Job's. The presence of the Spirit of God does not mean that such a person is 'born again'. You will recall the likes of Balaam and Caiaphas who brought forth God's word but had not covenant relationship with Him. Neither was Balaam's donkey born again, although it brought the word of God to Balaam.your quote "Although MY HOUSE IS NOT SO WITH GOD, yet He has made with me AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, ordered in all things and secure, FOR THIS IS ALL MY SALVATION AND ALL MY DESIRE; will He not make it increase? But the sons of rebellion shall all be as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands." 2 Samuel 23:5-6 David referring here to the unique Davidic covenant made with David's family. In the absolute sense this was fulfilled in Christ, David's greater son, and 'of David's house'.This covenant has to do with David's dynasty.
In terms of Elihu, what if it is not a parallelism, what if the life he speaks of is Christ? "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--THE LIFE was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that ETERNAL LIFE which WAS with the Father and manifested to us." 1 John 1:1-2 John speaks of Jesus as being the ETERNAL LIFE. This eternal life was with the Father before He came to earth. In terms of Baalam, I believe he was a prophet of God and had a righteous standing before Him. What the example teaches us is that we can choose to walk away from our Lord. Also the Holy Spirit as you witnessed can do mighty things. In terms of your explaination of the covenant with David, the beginning of the verse states, "Although my house is not so with God," This I believe states that the covenant is only between David and God. Also because it is an everlasting covenant and not a promise, it is not a one time thing. If you say the covenant would be established 1000 years later, then according to your definition of what a promise and covenant consist of is not what we see here in Scripture. In effect, this covenant would then have an uninterupted line of Jewish kings to this day. In Christ Jeff
In terms of your explaination of the covenant with David, the beginning of the verse states, "Although my house is not so with God," This I believe states that the covenant is only between David and God. Also because it is an everlasting covenant and not a promise, it is not a one time thing. If you say the covenant would be established 1000 years later, then according to your definition of what a promise and covenant consist of is not what we see here in Scripture. In effect, this covenant would then have an uninterupted line of Jewish kings to this day. The 'everlasting' (age enduring) covenant was with David, and his family were blessed 'for David's sake'. Just as God's covenant was with Noah and his family were blessed because they were right related to Noah. The word 'everlasting' has to be understood in context. There are several 'everlasting' things which have already passed away.God promised to 'build a house for David' meaning establish a dynasty. It was David's house, it was David's Temple (David designed it and provided all materials). David had an amazing experience of God at a time when the Old Covenant was virtually in suspense; the altar and the mercy seat had become separated and days of atonement could not have taken place. David's experience was wonderful and thrilling. He seemed to live outside the normal covenant of his day. Sacrifice and offerings you have not required; that went against 500 years of revelation. David adds to the implications of justification by faith and his additions are found in Rom 4, but it is still Romans 4 and not Romans 5. The Old Covenant was glorious, David's Covenant relationship with God was even more glorious, but neither compare with the Glory of the New Covenant.
"...Jesus Christ, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God." Hebrews 3:1-4 Here it says that Moses was faithful in God's house. And it is Jesus who built the house. Would David or Solomon also be considered to be faithful in His house?In Christ Jeff
as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hi JeffYou didn't quite finish the quotation did you?as Moses also was faithful in all His house, as a servant. This is how Wesley distinguished his intellectual conversion from regeneration. Wesley distinguishing his attitude of heart after Fetter Lane to that before Fetter Lane, by saying"I had even then the faith of a servant, though not that of a son"They were all faithful 'as servants', regeneratin produces sons.
I am sorry Ron it was not intentional. We are all bondservants in His house, so I don't understand the distinction you are making. I understand what Wesley, in the sense, heard the voice. This is how I explain it. My heart has been quickened many times. And because of my experience my heart cries out abba father. Yet his regeneration does not prove your point about Moses' faith of a servant in Christ's house. If I might reverse the logic, Moses because he was only a servant, had only an intelectual relationship with Jesus. Even as he sat and spoke with God in the tabernacle as a man would face to face. David spoke with his heart to God in the Psalms. Has any man wrote anything more profound than David in terms of the relationship he has with God. "The Lord said to my Lord..."In ChristJeff
I am simply repeating the fact that Christ's death, Resurrection and Sending of the Spirit brought in a new era called the New Covenant. It was viewed as future in the times of Ezekiel and Jeremiah. New Covenant is a phrase designed to draw attention to the fact that it is not Old Covenant. The Old Testament saints, and modern saints too, are expected to be 'faithful stewards in God's house'. My reference to Moses was that a distinction is drawn in Hebrews between and older pattern and a new one. Christ's achievements were to 'bring many sons to glory'. I have no intention of minimizing the Old Covenant, it was glorious. But the New Covenant is more glorious. The Old was fading, the New abides and increases.I do not believe that Abraham, Moses, David etc were what the New Testament calls 'born again'. I do not believe regeneration was possible before the Holy Spirit was poured out in our hearts. I am not a dispensationalist but I read that "by faith we undestand that the ages were framed by the word of God", so I try to understand how God has worked and will work in those 'ages'. I see, as AlmondBranch pointed out, that John is the greatest 'born of woman' and yet he that is 'least in the kingdom of God is greater than John'. What can that mean other than the fact that 'John was not in the kingdom of God' at the time of Christ's testimony? and yet according to John 3 entrance into the kingdom of God is by new birth. If John had been 'born again' he would have been in the kingdom of God. If the greatest, born of woman, was not in the kingdom why do we thing the others were?
In terms of all who lived in faith before the resurrection of Christ, none had ascended into heaven for the way was not opened until Jesus' resurrection. "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven..." John 3:13 This includes John the Baptist. All lived in the bosom of Abraham. Also Jesus was distinguishing the difference of baptisms. As Paul wrote, one man sows another waters, but it is God who gives the increase. John's baptism only turned man to God for the remission of sin's. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Also when Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus said you must be born from above...then He says to Nicodemus, "Most assuredly , I say to you, WE SPEAK what WE KNOW and TESTIFY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, and you do not believe OUR WITNESS." John 3:11 Jesus spoke these words in the past tense and He and His disciples are the ones who witnessed this to those they preached to. In ChristJeff
Hi JeffAlso Jesus was distinguishing the difference of baptisms.I wonder where you got this idea?Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. when?Also when Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus said you must be born from above...then He says to Nicodemus,Actually, 'ye' plural. Not Nicodemus alone, that would have been 'thee'. So who is the 'ye'? those same disciples who witnessed this encounter with Nicodemus. They needed to hear this too.
"We speak what we know and testify what we have seen, and you do no believe our witness." Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. He is the only one that is taught about his need to be born from above. When Jesus cautions Nicodemus, the choice to believe or not to believe is put forth. Jesus, when He speaks, testifies to something which has existed since Genesis 3:15. The question is who are His disciples and from what generation do they come from? In terms of when this occurs: without the Holy Spirit men are condemned to love the things of this world. Men will inevitably do the will of Satan. Jesus commands Paul, "...I now send you to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and FROM THE POWER OF SATAN to God..." Acts 26:17-18 God works the same always. In terms of Jesus' ministry while on earth, the future apostles received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. In terms of Jesus' disciples before His ministry on earth we can see that Zacharias, Elizabeth, Simeon, and Anna are righteous before the Lord. If the Sciptures declare one righteous then God has enabled them to be so. Not just in words but in action. "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost." 1 Thessalonians 1:5All the saints who were santified by faith in Jesus are His disciples. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work as one. "All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them, AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST." 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 We know that most of them walked away from the Lord because they chose not to believe. Yet there was a remnant. Even in the time of Elijah, God reserved 7000 who did not bow their knee to Baal. If by grace then it is not of the law given on Mount Sinai. The law given on Mount Sinai condemned. No one is made perfect by the law. It only teaches about sin. This is why the there are two covenants coexisting. In reality all who do not call upon the Lord are condemned by the law of God's righteousness. There is a promise availabe to all who repent and follow God in faith. In Christ, God reconciled the world to Him. "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, and render vengeance to His adversaries; HE WILL PROVIDE ATONEMENT for His land and His people." Deut. 32:43 This work of God covers all generations who are the just who live by faith. You see only God can provide the atonement which brings salvation to His creation.In ChristJeff
This Scripture is speaking of God's work in King Saul. Samuel said to Saul, "Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man." 1 Samuel 10:6And then, "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel the God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him, the the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." 1 Samuel 10:9-10God works in man the same always. Not by might nor by power but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts. In ChristJeff