Words that we take from Scripture tend to become like clothes that have been hanging on the line for a long time. Just as clothes lose their strength and their well-defined colors, so too the original meaning of words fade and deteriorate over time just by the way they are used. It is especially that way with the word, “Love” Love has become a rather wishy-washy, generalized meaningless word – that has absolutely nothing to do with its God-intended meaning. I firmly believe that Scripture makes it very clear what love really means. Jesus himself used a variety of parables to make the meaning come alive. Above all, he defined the word, “love” by demonstrating it with his life. Maybe that is the best way we can define love – by discovering it, and by living it. There is something else I want to understand: I have heard the three Greek words for love: eros, phileo, and agape, agape being the “highest” form of love (for God). Yet, I notice that “agape” is used in this reference: “Do not love (agape) the world…. I Jn. 2:15So clearly there is good and bad agape love. Since love is the hallmark, the bed-rock indication of true eternal life, I think this is a worthy pursuit. I would like to make a collection of Biblical references to love. Maybe you can help me by posting some, and sharing what God is teaching you about “love”. Diane
What is Love?
You may like to see the comparisons of the words 'agapE' and 'phileO' as seen in Vine's Expository Dictionary..
I was reading John 21 this morning. In this chapter there is a very interesting discussion between the Lord Jesus and Peter concerning the whole nature and quality of his love for Jesus.So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.(John 21:15-17)It's well known that in this discussion Jesus used one word for love (agape) and Peter used another and a lesser(phileo). The quality of love is tested by our ability to let go and empty ourselves before the Lord Jesus. I think Jesus was trying to teach them this very thing when he washed their feet at the last supper. No mere 'fondness' will do; proven, faithful, undenying love is in view. I think that is the heart of this conversation between the two and it is a great change of heart for the aggressive and impetuous Peter, the fisherman, to become one who tends lambs. Only by the fullness of the Spirit is it possible.In Christ,Ron
If I could define what I believe, what Jesus and Paul "exhibited" as "Love", it was Self Sacrifice.'Sacrifice' for others only, for the sake of Truth or what's right. And in that attempt, the person will do whatever it takes to save someone from damnation, save them from dangerous or erroneous beliefs or sin or help in a time of need ... despite the cost to themselves, whether it be laying down their life for them, losing their "reputation", being misunderstood, losing friendships, having them get mad at you, ostracize you, lose out financially, stand completely alone ... 'whatever' the loss ... Love must be an 'action' verb, and only 'self-less-Action-Sacrifice' - with others in mind Only, can even begin to describe The Love that is displayed in God's Word by Jesus Himself and his disciples.You had requested some verses.Starting in Deut. and several times throughout Deut and the rest of the O.T. ... 'Before' the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who 'assists' us now, to Love with HIS Love.Deut. 6:5-7 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. (Mat 5:43) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Mat 5:44)For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (Mat 5:46)No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Mat 6:24)Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Mat 19:19)Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Mat 24:12) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Mark 12:30)And the second is like, namely this, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". There is none other commandment greater than these. (Mar 12:31)And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. (Mar 12:33)But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, (Luk 6:27)For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. (Luk 6:32)But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luk 6:35)And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? (Luk 7:42)And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. (Luke 10:27)But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Luk 11:42)No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Luk 16:13)Joh 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. (Joh 5:42)"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42)"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (Joh 13:34)By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (Joh 13:35)If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Joh 14:15)"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (Joh 14:21)"Jesus answered and said unto him, IF a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (Joh 14:23)As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (Joh 15:9)If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (Joh 15:10)This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (Joh 15:12)Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (Joh 15:13)These things I command you, that ye love one another. (Joh 15:17)If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (Joh 15:19)"And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." (Joh 17:26)So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. (Joh 21:15)He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (Joh 21:16)He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. (Joh 21:17)And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (Rom 5:5)And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28)Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (Rom 8:35)Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:39)Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. (Rom 12:9)Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honor preferring one another; (Rom 12:10)Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another "hath fulfilled the law." (Rom 13:8)For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Rom 13:9)Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Rom 13:10)Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; (Rom 15:30)But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (1Co 2:9)But if any man love God, the same is known of him. (1Co 8:3)1Co 13:1-8 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (Charity = Agape), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22)My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen. (1Co 16:24)For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. (2Co 2:4)Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. (2Co 2:8)By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, (2Co 6:6)Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. (2Co 8:7)I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. (2Co 8:8)Wherefore show ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf. (2Co 8:24)Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. (2Co 13:11)The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (2Co 13:14)For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; "but faith which worketh by love". (Gal 5:6)For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Gal 5:13)For ALL the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy "neighbor as thyself". (Gal 5:14)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (Gal 5:22)According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph 1:4)Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, (Eph 1:15)That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (Eph 3:17)And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:19)With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; (Eph 4:2)But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Eph 4:15)From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:16)And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor. (Eph 5:2)Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Eph 5:25)So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. (Eph 5:28)Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself ; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. (Eph 5:33)Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph 6:23)Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. (Eph 6:24)And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; (Phi 1:9)Phi 1:15-17 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: Phi 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. (Phi 1:17)If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, (Phi 2:1)Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. (Phi 2:2)Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints. (Col 1:4)Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. (Col 1:8)That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Col 2:2)Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. (Col 3:19)Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; (1Th 1:3)And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: (1Th 3:12)"But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another." (1Th 4:9)But let us, who are of the day, be sober, "putting on the breastplate of faith and love"; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. (1Th 5:8)And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. (1Th 5:13)And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:10)SEEMS SO FAR ... THAT WE CAN'T BE SAVED IN THE END WITHOUT HIS LOVE IN US !And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. (2Th 3:5)And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. (1Ti 1:14)But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1Ti 6:11)"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (2Ti 1:7)Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, "in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." (2Ti 1:13)Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Ti 4:8)That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, (Tit 2:4)Phm 1:3-7 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers, hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints; that the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother. Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such a one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ. (Phm 1:9)For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Heb 6:10)And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (Heb 10:24)Let brotherly love continue. (Heb 13:1)Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, "which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (Jam 1:12)"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (Jam 2:5) (Jam 2:8-9)If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1Pe 1:8)Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (1Pe 1:22)Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. (1Pe 2:17)Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: (1Pe 3:8)For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: (1Pe 3:10)But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: 'hereby' know we that we are in him. (1Jo 2:5)Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1Jo 2:15)Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (1Jo 3:1)For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. (1Jo 3:11)We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1Jo 3:14)Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (1Jo 3:16) [Compare to John 3:16 - Neat coincidence in verse numbers ? :)But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (1Jo 3:17)My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1Jo 3:18)And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1Jo 3:23)Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. (1Jo 4:7)He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. (1Jo 4:8)In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (1Jo 4:9)Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1Jo 4:10)Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. (1Jo 4:11)No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (1Jo 4:12)And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (1Jo 4:16)Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1Jo 4:17)There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (1Jo 4:18)We love him, because he first loved us. (1Jo 4:19)If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (1Jo 4:20)And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. (1Jo 4:21)By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1Jo 5:2)For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. {He gave TWO commandments} (1Jo 5:3)The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; (2Jo 1:1)Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (2Jo 1:3)And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. (2Jo 1:5)And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. (2Jo 1:6)Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. (Jud 1:2)Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jud 1:21)Rev 2:1-4 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: and hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. God Bless you Diane.
MeAgain'sIf I could define what I believe, what Jesus and Paul "exhibited" as "Love", it was Self Sacrifice.“And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31, KJVS)This is agapE-love in a human being. It is the whole of the person concentrated and given to another with no expectation of it being reciprocated. As Moses said in Deuteronomy; “Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people... but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.” (Deut. 7:7-8, ASV) Jehovah has loved you because He has chosen to love you. It is bold passionate love but with a backbone of steel. It is a love which has chosen and totally committed itself to another. It is the love Paul speaks of in Galatians: “the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Gal. 2:20, KJVS) It is a love in which the giver gives not just gifts but himself. And, on InTheLight's theme, it is a love which honest Peter knew he did not have at the time of John 21, although he would know it later.
As you posted that to me Ron, and we basically have posted the exact same beliefs or thoughts on Agape...Can I ask you, do you love me, with the type of love you have just described ?Love, me again (or GrannieAnnie)
MeAgain, What a long list of verses!!!! probably the longest post I have yet encountered on this forum. Yet, I firmly believe that these verses will remain useless and limp until one truely knows love BY EXPERIENCE. One must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive. Explaining love to one deprived of love is like explaining color to a color-blind person. With that in mind, I see why the following verse deserves a great deal of serious consideration. It is a brilliant model of prayer: I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.Eph. 3:17 I suspect that every single relational problem that has ever exists could be the product of a love-deficiency. With that in view, then the solution would be to figure out how to fill the vacuum - ie, LOVE. It should not be surprising then that our highest calling is to LOVE others, and desire that they know the love of God. This is not an issue of being 'NICE'. Jesus revealed by his life that love can be bold, fierce, and disturbing. But Jesus knew what was needed to draw all people to himself - his glorious redemptive love. I don't recall Jesus saying, "I love you." too often, but instead he actually did it. Words are cheap. Action is costly - even can cost our lives. Dear God, please reveal to me where I shun your love. Help me accept your love for me, so that I may be able to love others with a Christ-like love. Diane
Philologos said: it is a love which honest Peter knew he did not have at the time of John 21, although he would know it later.I spent a fair bit of time meditating on the verses in the Vine's link that you gave. Thank you. It is very revealing to examine the greek words. Phileo refers to affection for someone - which is good and needed, but agape goes far beyond that, as you explained. This would be good to point out to one who says, "I'm divorcing my husband because I just don't have any love for him any more." No question, phileo may dwindle, but agape stands any trials, even desertion and betrayal, because agape rests in God's love, and desires that one knows God's love. Diane
roadsign'sOne must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive. Although this plainly is not the way it was from the beginning. God's love has not depended upon His first 'being loved'. AgapE is love 'in spite of' rather that 'because of'. For the regenerate there is no excuse... the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We have been loved and are loved and have received love; we are without excuse if we do not love.There is a passage in Peter which I have always found challenging: “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:” (1Pet. 1:22, KJVS) Here Peter seems to be declaring that because we have known love we are obligated to love others. Almost as though he were to say 'you have received love, now use it'. God has brought you to genuine brotherly love, see that you do love one another from a pure heart, fervently.I think I may have shared this testimony here before. Some years ago I had grown apart from a brother whose pattern of church life was very different to my own. There had been no quarrel but just an increasing distancing. I heard that he was experiencing some severe difficulties and was on my way to visit him. As I drove I was praying along the lines of 'Lord, please reveal your love to my brother at this time...' It was one of those times when God interrupts prayer and I heard a clear 'No, I will not' in my heart. I was dumbfounded and asked 'why not'. The answer came as clear as crystal 'You show my love to him'.It is so easy to pray the right things but God will have no pretence in these things! Prayer is not an alternative to obedience.
I have some scriptures on this. Just give me some time to compose them. Due to a numerous amount of work that needs to be done.
Hia Diane,Could I comment on just two things you addressed to me in your reply. You said: What a long list of verses!!!! probably the longest post I have yet encountered on this forum. Yet, I firmly believe that these verses will remain useless and limp until one truely knows love BY EXPERIENCE. One must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive.The reason the list I had and gave was so long, was because I had compiled that list for someone years ago, that felt that Love was Not necessary to "remain in Christ".You said, we must "feel loved first" ... but that's not in God's Word, that's sort of Psychology.God's Word, and why I posted all of those verses, makes it a commandment we are told to just do... period. If you read all those verses you see that we have no excuse not to.I just think the problem is, is that we've played around with the definition too much.If Love is "selfless", then to wait until we are, or feel loved, would not make sense.There are no "Professionals" on Love, that can tell you what it is ... it is only 'acted out' and can barely be defined by those who have His Love. Like the missionary Dr. in the Jungle, etc. etc. quietly toiling. Sometimes, the more it is defined, it seems, the more it becomes some sort of impotent sentimentality, instead of the 'action' that it is and best described by action... If I could define what I believe, what Jesus and Paul "exhibited" as "Love", it was Self Sacrifice.'Sacrifice' for others only, for the sake of Truth or what's right. And in that attempt, the person will do whatever it takes to save someone from damnation, save them from dangerous or erroneous beliefs or sin or help in a time of need ... despite the cost to themselves, whether it be laying down their life for them, losing their "reputation", being misunderstood, losing friendships, having them get mad at you, ostracize you, lose out financially, stand completely alone ... 'whatever' the loss ... Love must be an 'action' verb, and only 'self-less-Action-Sacrifice' - with others in mind Only, can even begin to describe The Love that is displayed in God's Word by Jesus Himself and his disciples.The LONG list of Scriptures, are just to show, we have no option or choice or excuse NOT to love in His Way. If we're commanded to Love, that means "Just Choose to Do It" and 'then' He enables. But as with everything else in this walk, we "choose" second by second what we'll do.Our walk, as with our thoughts and beliefs, are what we choose, second by second.So, as you touched on, Love is 'Doing' Love, not talking about it. To talk is easy. To do what HE would do, is another story. And none of us have attained [Phil 3], to complete Christ-likeness, in that regard. We press on by 'doing'... obeying the Scriptures above.Bless ya Diane.Annie
MeAgain, I did not shape my words very well. I meant to say that the long list of verses was wonderful! A reminder of what really is important!! I copied your verses. Thank you very much. It saves me lots of time. Now, I’m wanting to make those verses come alive with a clear understanding of “love”. You said, we must "feel loved first" ... but that's not in God's Word, that's sort of Psychology. Perhaps the word, “feel” conjures up thoughts of “warm fuzzy” kind of stuff. Instead, “believe” may be better - not merely an intellectual belief, but a deep inner knowing. This is not pop psychology. The Bible says it. “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” 1 Jn 4:18Why does one fear? It is because they don’t know Christ’s love – ie his forgiveness, mercy, grace. As a result condemnation lurks in the recesses of the conscience. This seems to be a reality for most Christians from what I see. They are certainly “not made perfect in love”. I deeply believe that the hypocrisy, gossip, pride, and any other sins can be traced to the person not having fully accepted God’s forgiveness and love. I say that from personal experience. My loving God worked in my heart for many years to teach me to grasp and trust his love. That is a long story, still in the making. Also, all who do not know and trust in God’s loving protection and provision, go after it for themselves. No wonder we see self-centeredness, worry, greed, pride, shame, fear of man etc etc etc. No wonder love is deficient. “We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 because we have known love we are obligated to love others. Philologos, it seems that you are assuming that every Christian knows love. But that doesn’t appear to be reality. Some seem to have it, but most just don’t, and I don’t see how a sermon on loving others will help them change their deeply entrenched ways. They need to experience and know God. In fact, I feel that I could know God’s love a lot more than I do, and am convinced that as I grow in his love, I will love others better. Diane
His Diane, Thank you for responding and communicating with me. Good dialog.I think I need to quote where my response came from first and combine it with this latest reply, then we can go on.The quote I was referring to was: Diane wrote: Yet, I firmly believe that these verses will remain useless and limp until one truely knows love BY EXPERIENCE. One must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive. Next this latter reply you wrote: “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” 1 Jn 4:18Why does one fear? It is because they don’t know Christ’s love – ie his forgiveness, mercy, grace. As a result condemnation lurks in the recesses of the conscience. This seems to be a reality for most Christians from what I see. They are certainly “not made perfect in love”. I deeply believe that the hypocrisy, gossip, pride, and any other sins can be traced to the person not having fully accepted God’s forgiveness and love.Also, all who do not know and trust in God’s loving protection and provision, go after it for themselves. No wonder we see self-centeredness, worry, greed, pride, shame, fear of man etc etc etc. No wonder love is deficient. According to God's Word, those sins, are not because "we haven't accepted God's love", but because we refused to Love God & others. And that's been God's 'Word' since Deuteronomy.If you read both of John's Epistles, you get the point that even this verse that you quoted here is on "our part". "There is no fear [when we] love" is what John is conveying ... as he has in both of his epistles ... put the command on us to be the ones who love. All that you've said above is "self" focused. We are told to be Christocentric ... our eyes always and only on Him, not self.In other words ... (using the last few sentences from quote) ... a person could say, "Well, I'm self-centered because I don't 'trust in God’s loving protection and provision."We're ALL self-centered, because our old man, the whole of our human nature is "self-centered". Even ministry can be "self-centered".We're self-centered by nature, and that is what the Lord asks us to "reckon dead" and "crucify" and to die to self, etc.If it were possible to COMPLETELY "die to self", we'd be Just Like Him. Identical.But His Commands have no "reasons why not".The majority of those Verses posted on page one, are "Commands".Now, I think what we need to talk about is "Faith".Faith is another "action/verb", "We walk by faith.."If God commands love, from Deut. on, (and they didn't even have the Indwelling of the Spirit to fulfull that Commandment with), then it appears, once again, it is on our part, 'without any exceptions'.Wherever we see in the New Testament, that word "Commandment(s)", it always is pointing to the Two .... Love God ~ Love Others. That is the fulfilling of the Law and the prophets, He said.So, "By Faith", we "Obey" God's Word, and be willing to step out and obey His main and foremost Command, "to Love". {Again, an action word of selfless doing, not feelings necessarily}Whenever we trust and obey, then He acts upon our action. If we 'wait' for an experience, then we are not fulfilling His commands.When we 'act' on His commands, that is when He will give us the experience of Him loving through us and with His Love and the more we act, the more "perfected in His love" we become. By acting out the definition I gave in the post on top here.It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'feelings'.It is action. Self-less action for the good of others, period. We are told to "have" the mind of Christ, in that, He was ONLY 'others' minded.We are told, that without our fulfilling these two Commandments, we will not be saved in the end ... if you look at all the verses on pg 1.He doesn't command we "feel His Love" ... He says "For God so loved the world .... " and that's what we must act on 'by faith'.Not wait for the "experiential", to obey the only two Commandments He's laid on us.Alllll those sins you mentioned is our lack of Love for God and others, not our lack of feeling loved. The "Lack of feeling loved" is "Self" ... focus on self, calling God a liar, not having faith in His Words and what He did at Calvary, the wanting and demanding from God a "feeling" of love, besides what He did on the cross. It's all self, self, self. This is Psychology and not Biblical Reality. I don't always "feel His love or forgiveness", but by faith I know I must obey, and He said, "Love". Whether I feel it or not ... it's been that way since the O.T.."If you love me, you'll keep my Commandments" and those were The Two.You're forming a Doctrine based on 'personal experience' or a feeling of 'human' mercy on those who have not been perfected in love, by Loving God & others themselves.Read those passages intently, and you'll see, that once we see Love Incarnate on the Cross and except salvation because we've seen Him ... from then on we are responsible to Him to live His Two Commandments ... and by obedience, we are "made perfect in love". Our wills is what He's after ... so He fulfills His Word in us whenever we act in obedience to it. We take the first step by faith and obedience.If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith, as God commands we do. We've turned their eyes to "self" and that is not good. But denying self and taking up our cross and 'following' Him, is the only way to grow ... not looking for love within ourselves first. The whole of our experience with God is based upon Faith alone, even our growth. God said He loves us, Obviously on the cross, so we act on and by faith alone - go 'outward' to others with that, and then He prunes so that we produce even more fruit. No fruit, He cuts down the tree. I HAVE TO believe God Loves me 'by faith' in His Word alone. If I don't, Satan and my 'emotions' (or intense persecution or trials) can waver and throw me one day. This is human nature for most of us. But our whole walk and the future of it, depends on 'acting on faith alone'. If you have an e-sword or Strong's, look up "Faith". One would be Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.Another to look up is "obey" and then "Commandment(s)" ... (both plural and singular)I hope I'm expressing this clearly enough. I know I'm not the best communicator, but I just know and trust His Word to speak for me much better.That is All we have to form our views from.His Love to you and thank you for sharing with me.Annie
If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith,No, no, never! We are not condoning sin by offering an excuse! Quite the contrary, we are helping others know their need: God himself!There is a tendency to try to eradicate people's sin problems by commanding that fix up the old self. Just obey! However, the old self must be crucified. One must be clothed in Christ, by surrendering themsleves to God and his glorious love. You can't beat a lame horse into "submission". It won't preform for you because it CAN'T. First you facilitate healing. This requres love with knowledge and UNDERSTANDING not a whip. To reject the love of God is the greatest sin, and the root of all sin. You said it well by bringing up the word FAITH. For without faith it is impossible to please God. It takes faith to trust in God's love. But here again, all my words are quite lame. They do little to change anyone from their ingrained pattern of life. Even for myself, I cannot change old ways without the tender work of Christ - through testings and trials. And that takes time. We need to learn to be patient with those who have not yet been perfected in love (including ourselves) and trust that God can do it. Diane
Quote:"If God commands love, from Deut. on, (and they didn't even have the Indwelling of the Spirit to fulfull that Commandment with), then it appears, once again, it is on our part, 'without any exceptions'."Quote:"If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith,"Whose Faith do we live by? Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Grace and Faith are not of ourselves. Then when did this Faith come?Galatians 3:22-23 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.This Faith was not in the old testament law and old testament saints could not have this faith because it had not come. Now that this Faith of Jesus Christ has come, it is available because of Grace and Jesus Christ who has now revealed this Faith that we can be full of Christ with This revealed Faith unto New Testament Saints that are in Christ. This Faith is a Person not a thing to be grasped. I can not love except selfishly. Christ in me can love with out hypocrisy or self being interred into the equation. Just like the Faith that has come by Christ, it is now the Faith of Christ that gives us Grace and Love in His Person, now in us.Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.So the Law unable to save us brought us to Christ who is able to save to the utmost, then we acquired the Faith that came by Him and the Love that is Him and in Him we now can have His Faith and His Love and that is what must come forth. All else is self indulgence and works on our part to attain perfection in ourselves. There is only perfection in Christ and none other.Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.He is in us, let us put Him On. That we might rest in the warmth of His enveloping us in His Love that His Love might come forth through us.What would Jesus do, and Do it as Jesus Did, are two of the biggest lies of the devil that we can we can fall into. The truth is, what is Jesus doing in us, and may we do it as He is doing it in us.This is our Faith, His Faith.Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.We are not justified by Abraham's faith but by the scripture foreseeing that God would justify us through the faith of Jesus Christ, which is now come, by Jesus Christ bringing it with Him. This is the Faith that saves and gives Grace, not human faith but Godly Faith in Christ Jesus.In Christ: Phillip
Hi Diane, All I will say about your reply is that ... there was no "whip" in my posts. "If we "love" Him, we will keep His commandments."Philip and Diane,The less we use Scripture to prove our points, the further from Scripture we get.Read the Commandments to "Love God and others" in the O.T. and then read Hebrews 11 and 12.Thank you both.AnnieEdited to add Chpt.12. I hesitated to at first, because of the "whip" comment. Love you guys.
What love can find the true desire of our heart, but the Love of Christ in us. "Love one another as I have loved you." What love can I give brother's and sister's that really counts, praise God the Love of Christ in me, Who loved me first and gave Himself for me. Amen.Love In Christ: Phillip
MeAgain saidEDIT: Sorry, MeAgain - completely my error. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. You know, I should have realised you wouldn't have said that. :-P CORRECTION Phillip said EDIT end.What would Jesus do, and Do it as Jesus Did, are two of the biggest lies of the devil that we can we can fall into. The truth is, what is Jesus doing in us, and may we do it as He is doing it in us.This is our Faith, His Faith.Good word! 8-)
Ha, dorcas,Don't tell me you've got M.E.Would you mind very much editing your post, cuz I didn't say that.I wouldn't have said that. :-D ;-)
Doing what Jesus did is impossible, being WHO Jesus is in me is what makes all things possible, "I can do all things through Christ". That is giving up ourselves and allowing Jesus to come forth in us as us. Again, the Person of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.The Grace is certainly not of ourselves and the Faith of the Son of God is not of ourselves.It is Christ in us being WHO Jesus is that gives us what we are to be doing.In Christ: Phillip
What would Jesus do, and Do it as Jesus Did, are two of the biggest lies of the devil that we can we can fall into. The truth is what is Jesus doing in us , and may we do it as He is doing it in us.These words are perhaps the most accurate words spoken yet. It's not how much we know about the Bible, how much we have memorized about the life of Christ,or how well we can recite scripture. Knowledge can puff us up, (if we don't know Christ) and can cause us to be unloving. May ...you being ROOTED and ESTABLISHED in love,... have the POWER...to grasphow wideand longand highand deep is the love of Christ,and to know the love that surpasses knowledge." Eph. 4:17 -19I could add ... love suprasses even a definition. It makes me realize just how crazy my origional question is. Love is difficult to define on a forum that depends on words. It is best demonstrated through our responses to one another - with tenderness and mercy.Indeed, we cannot love any more than we KNOW Christ's love within us. Show me someone who lacks love towards another, and we can be certain that they are distant from Christ and do not KNOW his love. May God help me, and show me where I need to grow in love. Diane
First - just a note - MeAgain... thanks for your invitation on the previous screen page to correct the attribution of my quote. It is now done. :-)Show me someone who lacks love towards another, and we can be certain that they are distant from Christ and do not KNOW his love. Diane,It is not possible to be objective and subjective similtaneously. The judgement of whether a person loves because they are now a Christian, has to be held against what they were like before they were a Christian - not held against whether we perceive a quantity or quality of love which we approve, from the insight we now have because we have experienced Christ's love, ourselves.Many things can be done by willpower because they are 'right' or the right thing to do in a given circumstance. That doesn't ensure they are done lovingly, with all the sensitivity of God's Nature shining through. I guess I'm saying anyone's (mine, yours) perception of the presence of love in an action, has to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit to our hearts and perhaps, (just 'perhaps') we don't know what it costs some people to be just barely loving by another person's standard. But, they are going in the right direction if they are loving at all.
Hi Dorcas and Diane, The reason I posted 'at all' on both of your threads, is because I trusted you both when I was here last.I made sure to even say good-bye personally, when having the ISP pull the plug, so please don't feel offensed by anything I've written now on your 3 threads (1 was Dorcas').If I didn't feel that kinship with you both back then and wasn't "happy to see you both still here", when I first came back on, I wouldn't have posted to any of the threads, because I can't do big debates with what physical stuff I'm blessed with. :-) Only if God gave me strength and the urging of a lifetime would I even attempt that.RonB answered well on page one here and the reason I wouldn't have said that 'quote' that was mistaken as mine, is because as I understand and wrote on page 2, we 'do' or 'act' first, then God blesses.The more we step out on faith to "do what He commands" (WWJD) the more we are fulfilling or obeying "His Words" and that is when we have Fruit and grow ... no other way according to the N.T..That's why I like to post Scripture and can show that what I just now said is 100% Bible.We "walk by faith" and "walk in the spirit" and we must be "Doers" of the Word and not just hearers .... there is no other way to Grow ... and I could post another large post of Scripture to prove that again with as many as the Love Verses I gave, but I know that you all have your own Bibles and could do it yourselves.I really do love you and have always considered the both of you as friends. You knew what I was going through, last time I was on with the M.E. and all and gave me understanding and kindness.But there is nothing at all wrong with WWJD ?If used properly, we can ONLY learn about Him through His Word ... and we are told to model Him ... so that means "take pause and think what He would have done or would be doing and do it".Paul even said for folks to model himself... "follow me "as" I follow Christ."To be "SELF-Less" is the goal {"His Image"}. That's what He was. Just a Doer of the Word.Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glassJam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. I tried to explain it on the other thread yesterday and I think this one too.God "is" Love. He does not just love or is loving, but He IS love, so we can only define Love by His 'actions'.... because Love is an action/verb, just as is faith, hope, mercy, kindness, patience and all that He "is"... those are HIM and not just "virtues".Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? He blesses the sincere asking and doing WWJD ? His Ears perk up when He hears that asked from a sincere searching heart, who seeks His Word first with the desire to "do".Bless ya's and I am happy to see you both.Love.Annie
Dear Annie,Thank you for your warmth, when I know you are feeling anything but well. I appreciate the posts you've made.... let me say more....One thing I've noticed on SI, is, if one reads enough threads, the Holy Spirit is moving through all of us, as He would in a church meeting (where each person is free to speak what the Lord gives them there and then); if one has the brain for it - which I do now, but didn't used to - or, maybe because I've been in that sort of church meeting, I can 'visualise' the 3D of it - one finds the same theme coming through.In this case, it is the theme of love, and how is it defined. One person has posted scripture and refuted that what we do matters less than what we believe - which, Annie, is exactly what you are saying; you are saying just get out there and DO love - that's being a doer of the word.This is echoed in Frank's thread on dying for God - the need to take the knife to our own idols and slay them, so we are free to obey His will - that is, to be doers of His word.Probably, there are other places where this thought is coming through...... I know I've posted, recently, about 'those who do the Father's will' and 'those who hear His word and keep it'..... Also, that the person who hears the word and builds his house on it, is building on THE ROCK. The more these thoughts are presented, the more I see it is but one single thought. Yesterday, I was arrested by Luke's amazing quotation from Jesus, where He has just told the Pharisees they are too bothered about the outside of the cup.(YLT) Luke 1137 And in [his] speaking, a certain Pharisee was asking him that he might dine with him, and having gone in, he reclined (at meat), 38 and the Pharisee having seen, did wonder that he did not first baptize himself before the dinner.39 And the Lord said unto him, `Now do ye, the Pharisees, the outside of the cup and of the plate make clean, but your inward part is full of rapine and wickedness;40 unthinking! did not He who made the outside also the inside make? 41 But what ye have give ye [as] alms, and, lo, all things are clean to you. As I read v 41, I was amazed at this connection - GIVE ALMS and all things are clean unto you.Reminds me of 'Now you are clean through the word I have spoken unto you.' (John 15:3)Isn't this what you're talking about... that doing 'the word' is THE ONLY WAY we can be justified..... the only way we can be believed to have 'faith' - and therefore love.(KJV) Galatians 5:6, 13For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. Annie, I'm sure you know this.... but it was good for me to 'see' it too. Thank you for your ministry. Be encouraged.... you're getting through...... :-P
Dear Annie, Welcome back. I remember that we have some delightful private messaging back and forth before you left, sharing some of our experiences with M E, and mutual understanding about life. I think once I called you GrannieApple by mistake instead of GrannieAnnie (not sure if that is was a residual effect of M E, but it makes a good excuse) There is something that is speaking to me through our dialogues here: While it is good to share Scripture as much as possible, and discuss Biblical terms, that doesn't always help us see each other as real people. I wonder if that's why I get comments from time to time for using too much Scripture in my articles (on my site). It seems that most would rather just hear a point spoken with a very few words, or an illustration about life. I've also discovered that most would prefer to get to know me as a real person rather than as a theological mouthpiece. I need to learn to be sensitive to people where they are at... As has been said, It's not what you know that counts.... I plan to share some experiences on the Mercy thread, because they fit better there. But just for now, I can say, that even though I have not always been able to understand where you are coming from or where you are trying to go, I do really love you, and value you as a fellow pilgrim on this disorderly walk of life. Diane
Dorcas said, It is not possible to be objective and subjective similtaneously. The judgement of whether a person loves because they are now a Christian, has to be held against what they were like before they were a Christian - not held against whether we perceive a quantity or quality of love which we approve, from the insight we now have because we have experienced Christ's love, ourselves.Many things can be done by willpower because they are 'right' or the right thing to do in a given circumstance. That doesn't ensure they are done lovingly, with all the sensitivity of God's Nature shining through. I guess I'm saying anyone's (mine, yours) perception of the presence of love in an action, has to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit to our hearts and perhaps, (just 'perhaps') we don't know what it costs some people to be just barely loving by another person's standard. But, they are going in the right direction if they are loving at all.I repost these words, because I think they are so good. Dorcas, you have been divinely gifted with the ability to expand our boxes - in fact break them up. Thank you for setting me straight- or rather, keeping me from getting too straight and square. Is that not love? The lives of each person is weighed by God, and for some, a small gesture of reaching out may be very noble and significant, whereas for another that same action would be very short of the mark. Another thought: I remember being in desparate times of need, and very low. People came along to help. Once a Catholic lady helped me. I remember not caring what she believed about anything. I was just immensely greatful that God brought her along to fill in the need. When we are in a a very needy condition, like the beat up man in the ditch, we are greatful for the Good "Samaritan". Suddenly we see that person in different eyes. Diane
I was just immensely greatful that God brought her along to fill in the need. Praise God for Catholics, who know something about giving practical help at the moment it's most needed. I've been immensely helped by (mainly ex-) Catholics.... and I've grown to love and respect their culture of giving, from which I have learned and am still learning.
Hia Diane, I wonder if Paul was concerned about folks getting to know him as a real person or just that he taught the Scriptures or Truth.For some reason, the verses about the tree that bears fruit and the one that doesn't keeps going through my mind all since last week.And how Gal. talks about the "Fruit" of The Spirit {singular} and not the "fruits". Makes sense in that it all centers on the one and only Image of Christ Himself. Glory !!!I'm happy to be seeing many still here and I certainly have noticed also some new Fruit that God has led to post here. Neat !!!Happy to see you as always Dorcas. Walk in the Light.Love y'all both.Annie
Annie said, "Fruit" of The Spirit {singular} and not the "fruits". Makes sense in that it all centers on the one and only Image of Christ Himself. Glory !!!"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." Gal. 5:22That was the character of Jesus. I wonder if Paul was concerned about folks getting to know him as a real person or just that he taught the Scriptures or Truth. Paul said to the Thessalonians"We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us." 1 Thes. 2:8 Now, there is love!!
Hia Diane,I see ya got the verse from Galations well enough and what I meant there.But the translation of 1Th 2:8 is off some, because of the version you're using.1Th 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.If ya have e-sword or something, that would help.The many-many commentaries on this one verse alone would tell ya, they were saying that they were "willing to even give up their lives" for the Thessalonians.The dying to self message is so strong through-out the N.T., that there isn't a verse around that would contradict that teaching.But when Paul said, "he becomes all things, to all men" ... that would be the love, that one would show in a Secular circle to win the loss, but without actually "sinning" for them.TTYLLoveAnnie
Diane, sorry that was such a short reply and may have not sounded the way I would have liked to have written it.I had just finished 'Hia Diane', and the phone rings and at the same time, TONS of pictures are being downloaded from my daughter in emails and now her on the phone about them, all at the same time.Almost crashed my computer, because she's making up for lost time sending them, now that I'm back on line. Oooooh my. I told her, just hold on one minute, I'm doing something, I'll hurry. Then with all the email with attachments coming down, it froze up and I had to go off line to unfreeze the mess.Hope it doesn't sound rude, how I worded it, so for now I'll just leave it, rather than try to edit or reword anything and you can reply however you see it.Phew ... what a time here. :-? Sorry.
they were "willing to even give up their lives" for the Thessalonians.MeAgain, You brought out a good point. This would be consistant with the gospel message as a whole. Hope it doesn't sound rudeDo you know what? I don't want you or anyone to worry about about whether I might be offended by possible flaws in etiquette. Hopefully I'm cured of that. I'd rather look beyond people's quirks and squeaks, and see real people who are in this same boat as I am. When we can stop our obsession with the need to polish off or hide any possible bumps in our personality, we are free to fall, stumble, get up and grow inwardly together. (I am just sounding off in response to other discussions here... there now, I said it ... and back to the topic)Now the next challenge would be for us to learn what it means to be willing to give up our lives for the sake of others. I think it is far more than our physical lives (which isn't as hard as giving up our ego) It is also our pride, our need to be right, to be important, to have status, success, approval... And yes, even to risk being offended. It is also about giving up our facades, our false fronts, and letting ourselves be vulnerable. Wad'ya think?Diane
Diane, You asked ... What do I think ?What do I think ? Haaaaaaaaa.I'm sorry, but you have said a mouth full there and one that caused me to go OFF THE INTERNET COMPLETELY BACK IN OCTOBER, over all of what you just posted ........ So, I either have to go get out the surgical tape now and tape up my fingers, or just "tactfully" say .... I wish we all could rub each other's rough edges off together, or allow iron to sharpen iron, or just be whatever we are in REAL LIFE together, without getting thrown OFF the boat, that you so accurately stated that we ALL are in.{Within reason, as I'm sure you know.} I can't take much "egging on" myself, because of my health stuff, and I love when we all get along peacefully and even have good laughs together as a family would ... but once in a while, we all stick our leg down our own throats. We have no idea what type of life or day or illness that person has/had, and that's where "Forbear with one another" comes in. God loves Real people. 'Real' is really really neat. :-D The ego part ? Don't worry, got has thorns in the flesh for that. Paul didn't even have to ask for his. Father has a sense of humor too ... he knows how to handle "us". (the 'self' in us).Knock us off our high horse (or donkey, like Paul, whatever), on to our posteriors, is the Romans 8:28 for 29 thing. The Father's Good Pleasure. :knockedout: Pride, ego, etc, is just "self", and we'll be dealing with that until we see Him. I pray He'll prune where He needs to daily, but I don't always like how He answers. So now I'm waiting for the next brick to fall and not asking as often... Ha - gotta watch what we pray for they say ... I don't know ? But we DO Matt. 5:6, etc.All'a those, like Hudson Taylor etc, have said that we live with some 'self' till we're Outta Here. Self = flesh = pride,etc.Thanks for saying what ya have.:-)Annie
A friend said, "When it doesn't hurt anymore, then you know it's dead." Annie, Does that make sense? Don't you find that your illness helps the death process along. I remember when I was too ill and down in the gutter to care anymore about maintaining my image. I couldn't do it anyway. I was a total loser and all that I could do was call out for God's mercy and his help. I said to him, rather RUDELY, "If you want to make anything out of this life of mine, you are going to have to do it yourself, because I CAN'T." Then God gave me very unexpected and glorious peace. I was learning to rest in him - dead to many former cares. Diane
Hia Diane,Yes Mam ... but I don't think we fully "die" until we DIE. I posted some here ... https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9205&forum=45&1Then put up a prayer request the other day on the 'Miracles' board and mentioned it on "The end of the spear" thread.If I don't keep my mind off of me, and the inflamation stuff and pain, etc. etc. etc., I would/will surely lose it.That's what I believe God is showing me through this.He was "others minded only", and when that happens, then the rest has no room or not as much room to operate.It's like, there's only so much room inside of us to "do or think", and if that space is filled with "others only" (as best we can), that other garbage has no room and has to drop out/off somewhere's.It's a thorn, yes, but it's also a lesson in where He wants my head. Even as we spoke about the 52 yr.s of 'no love/just abuse' garbage last time I was on ... even that gets "dropped", as He makes it more and more 'others minded'.I'm still learning Diane, and I don't think I'll see perfection this side of Glory and I sure as life don't expect perfection out of any human ... but my only help is His Word and Him limiting, as my "only relief", to be others minded. Last year I 'almost' threw in the towel completely.No medication relieves all'a this stuff ... only going over to the Sick folks forum and trying to comfort them or talking about Him on here or with other friends or reading His Word.If it ain't HIM centered and I start feeling what I feel physically, I'll lose it for sure.But reading a lot of Missionary stories, of them being "tortured" for Christ and what held their sanity together sure was a 'blessing primer' for this. It's unbelievable what some have and are going through in persecution places. Unbelievable.I've only posted half the stuff of LateNeuroLyme and M.E., but suffice it to say, Romans 8:28 is FOR 29 and I prayed long ago to "judge me NOW, and not on Judgment day .... WHATEVER IT TAKES."Watch what ya pray they say, but don't stop praying it ... Ho. And don't get too confident if ya don't have any of the problems that other's do. :-? 'Thank you.' I enjoy our talks !Love ~Annie
I know it is a hard thing to realize that we are dead to this life because we still live in this world, but it says "we are no longer of this world", Jhn 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.If we try to keep this life we live on this earth we will loose it. If we disregard this life and love the Life that is in us, which is Christ. Then we have allowed the death of Christ on the Cross to crucify us with Him. "So then it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." So as He is in this world, that is what we have become if we believe and in believing come to the place of knowing this is who we are, Christ, Not us. This is our perfection knowing that it is the Life of Christ we now live. Even the pain we feel and the sickness of this old man syndrome we have still hanging on to our minds, this is where the war is, in our minds. Even this has been taken care of in Christ, for we have the Mind of Christ. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.This old man that we carry with is no longer our life and we can be free from the pain and cares of this world if we allow the Christ in us to be our life. We are not earthly people anymore we are heavenly people in Christ Jesus already. Oh, that we can put on this Christ and live, while we are still in the earth but not of it. This pain is not who we are, but we are partakers of the Baptism into His suffering and as Him we no longer have to suffer. Living by the Power of the Holy Spirit by the life of Christ in us is our Glory. I could spill out all the problems of this life and pain suffered and probably get a whole lot of sympathy from every one I speak to, But this is not longer the person I am, and all the troubles of this life I can now rejoice in because He has over come the World. 1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;Can we enjoy all things given by God, which include pain and suffering in this world, Amen, yes we can. 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. Is His Glory revealed? Yes. Who is our Strength? Ephesians 3:16-21 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be ===filled--- with all the ---fulness--- of God. Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the ---power--- that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.In Christ: Phillip
This thread title keeps Popping Out at me whenever I peruse the board and I know why, so I may as well speak what I'm feeling.Love is Action. If there's no Action in "love", then it isn't God's Love, period.Love in Action cares about the welfare of the other Saints and the world. "By this shall all men know that you are My disciples" ... Why ? because we "talk" about love or loving each other or by what we do for each other and the world for a witness .... even on here.None of us are Perfect, but we can Pray one for another and when folks post prayer needs, we should have been showing the world for all these years, how we check the prayer board and bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ.I said this on another forum, Long before I found SI, because that is so very common on Forums.Normally the lounge type part has the most posts, then the Doctrinal one, and last and least is the Prayer section.I think what IntheLight said about the Laodiceans finally tipped the scales for me to vent. Rev 3:15 I know thy "works", that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. We want to talk about love, etc. etc. etc., but, I'm right back to my earlier posts on here now. :-(
This is our perfection knowing that it is the Life of Christ we now live. Even the pain we feel and the sickness of this old man syndrome we have still hanging on to our minds, this is where the war is, in our minds. Even this has been taken care of in Christ, for we have the Mind of Christ.This point requires some chewing. As long as we see the battles outside of our own minds, we will also look for the solutions to our pain in the wrong places. We will also see Christ as someone who should be taking away the outside "causes" of our troubles. This faulty understanding is evident in our prayers: "Lord please take away the troubles, make our life work for us so that we don't have to endure pain." However, Christ did not promise any escape from the miseries of this world other than through him. He promises us rest in the pain - and PEACE OF MIND. I do believe that we are much freer to love when we are filled with peace. MeAgain said; we can Pray one for another and when folks post prayer needs, we should have been showing the world for all these years, how we check the prayer board and bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ.Thank you for this gentle word of reproof. I am guilty of getting too caught up in proclaiming MY OWN thoughts, and can get too egocentric, and forget to pray for others on the forum. Annie, I pray that God will strengthen you in spirit, body, and mind, and pour his power and love into your weak, frail body. May you walk in his strength today. I rejoice in what he has done in your life (in your mind), and in how he has shone his light through you. May you experience divine healing. (edit: link removed)Diane
Diane, I appreciate your paragraph to me.Thank you for your prayers.Love you, me again