David Hogan?

I was listening to some of David Hogans teaching ,they sounded good. However I later heard of all the controversy . Just wondering what you guys think ,or if any one has any insight on him? Thanks aaron

come on no ones has an opinion on this guy

I don't know a lot about him, but have heard some of his teaching also. He is definately out of the box and would be radical in the eyes of religion, no doubt. He ministers mainly in a remote area of ?Mexico, I think. He claims to have witnessed tremendous miracles including eyes being formed where there were none and dead raising. Many dispute his testimony. What they base that on, I'm not quite sure since I don't think anyone of them were actually there. Perhaps since they have not seen such miracles with their own eyes they do not believe, but the Word tells us believers will do such great miracles. Yes! Critics are never in short supply. He sort of reminds me of Heidi Baker in that they seem to be actually doing, living what scripture has commanded to us. Heidi Baker came from a wealthy family. She left all of those comforts to minister to, feed, clothe and make disciples in a place few would be willing to even visit. I don't know about David's background but he obviously has also chosen to live with less in this life to reach an otherwise ignored and forgotten people. Is he for real? That is for God to decide. I hope he is. If he isn't. I would hate to be in his shoes. It seems a dangerous thing to me to so easily tear down and criticize a minister of the gospel. Sure I have heard things taught by some ministers that put a check in my spirit but what if I am wrong and I have cursed what God has appointed and anointed? Hmm, not good either. NOt to say there are of course some fruit loops out there that are obviously of another spirit. I am not talking about that. I am speaking of these "discernment ministries" who make it a point to investigate and pick apart other ministries with a fine tooth comb looking for any t that is not crossed so they can "expose" the false teachers. This is ridiculous and I would like to know what ministry, preacher, teacher has the 100% right doctrine. We must each let the Holy Spirit in the light of God's Word show us what is good and true. Let's leave the witch hunts behind.I hope I do not come across as suggesting that you were criticizing David Hogan. I realize you obviously did not but so many do. Others that come to mind would be Micheal Brown and Steve Hill. I know there have been several threads concerning these men and Brownsville as of late as well as of old. I have not taken the time to follow them as it generally just grieves my spirit, but I do wonder if this has been mentioned. I have heard both Mike Brown and Steve Hill refer to Ravenhill (whom is held in high regard on this forum, and he should be) as a friend and mentor to them and as having personal conversations with the man. Just wondering if anyone else has picked up on this tid bit. It seems that Ravenhill did not have a problem with them.Blessings,Hope

Hi Aaron...!David Hogan is based just down the road from my University (about an hour away). And yes, I have attended some of David Hogan's meetings. And unfortunately, I did not like them at all. We've covered this topic in the past extensively. If you use the SEARCH feature, you can type in DAVID HOGAN, and you will find some of those previous threads. I wrote about my experiences in those other threads. Again, I was quite saddened and disgusted during those meetings. :-( EDIT:I said that I was "saddened and disgusted" because much of what he preached was extra-Biblical. His stories were very imaginative (including being talked to by a huge owl, and getting "chased" by Satan -- who was polite enough to open and close the Church gate). It was also the first time that I was ever "pushed" down by a preacher (who even preached that if you didn't fall down, then you were "fighting the Holy Ghost"). He made the entire Church come up to the stage, side by side, where he quickly pushed on our foreheads. He pushed on my rather hard -- while two of his men pulled me down by the shoulders. Needless to say, I was quite embarrassed, angry and saddened at the same time!

He comes to my area each year...back from the field. He has family here. (Northeast Louisiana)I've heard him a few times.He's different...to say the least...radical. He doesn't put up with or tolerate the Worldy Church.Real or Not? I don't know. I saw nothing wrong with his services, but I wasn't blown away either.Some of his stories are rather bizarre..for lack of a better term. But who am I to question what goes on in some of the jungles of Mexico? Having never been there, I can't say. He preached the Truth with a firey passion when I saw him.Just my two cents... :-)In Christ,Mark

I have some serious concerns about Mr. Hogan. I've only heard him speak once. A lot of emotional rowdiness, and not much more. I met this young couple who were absolutely precious. The young lady was pregnant. Yet all they wanted to do was go to the mission field, regardless of the cost. They went to serve with David Hogan.They were made to sleep on the earth in a hut, and work from dawn to dusk in a corn field. There was no care of assistance of any kind for the young lady. Most of the time, she was seperated from her husband.They came home crushed. I have no desire to visit Mr. Hogan or listen to his messages. Onesimus4God

Just wanted to say that I have spent time with David Hogan and have seen some of the things he reports with my own eyes. He is for real. Most of the people I have met that have negative opinions of him have formed those opinions from reading negative Blogs, or have heard him teach and were turned off because they like there plush american lifestyle that he so readily attacks.I am very aware of the lifestyle that the missionaries live with down there, and am dissapointed to see a post about a couple where the wife was pregnant. The info provided was very missleading. What he was refering to where they worked in the field and lived in a dirt hut is language school. The language school he sends all of his missionaries to is in mexico, it is a 1 year commitment, and you live just like the people you are going to minister to. You work in the field half the day and learn spanish the remainder. As far as the emotional style he uses when he preaches, that is a matter of personal taste i think. I like his layed back aproach. I don't like a style where the preacher gets up and looks down on the congregation like he is better then them.If you don't like him because of his style, remember to sort out the precious from the holy, for God offends the mind to reveal the heart. I have to remind myself of that all the time. With regards to what some call being slain in the spirit. I don't know what to tell you, I have been persoally prayed for by david and many of the missionaries that work with him, I have never resisted, but also have never gone down by the spirit or by the physical push of a man.Its sad that the ministers of God take time to take down a man doing Gods. David is a man, not perfect, but completely sold out to Jesus and the fruit of his ministry is great. People born again where the organized church failed because they refuse to do simple things like eat the food that is put before them(a huge offense to the people he ministers to).I would be curious to know how many people that have a negative opinion of him have actually been to the work and have spent time with him, not just a 10 minute conversation, but real time. We can all form opinions on the opinions of others, but the fruit of the man tells the real story.If you want to know more about him visit www.fuegodedios.com

Hi jsolson...!I disagree. I attended many of David Hogan's meetings because he conducted a series of meetings at the Church that I attended. My dislike for his "style" or "methods" had little to do with this distrust of his "ministry." I have traveled through Mexico with authentic missionaries to the Tarahumara in the Sierra Madre Occidental. We were forced to endure difficult circumstances, which all of us gladly accepted. Yet the things that I witnessed were awe-inspiring. But it is interesting that many of the most humble ministers and missionaries that I know from Mexico do not think very much about David Hogan.At the services that I attended, David Hogan indeed came across as a self-promoter. But that wasn't what bothered me so much. It bothered me that David Hogan preached extremely extra-Biblical charismatic doctrine -- all the while proclaiming himself as "the man of God." He left no room for disagreement (or testing) of his particular views. His tales from Mexico were also quite controversial. He talked about having a huge demon-possessed owl speak to him, and actually question him about "who" he thought he was -- and tell him that he couldn't have their town (alot like what alot of charismatic ministers claim to hear from demons). He also spoke about a time where he was walking from the Church to the huts, and how the gate opened and closed behind him. He knew it was the devil, so he ran saying, "The Devil is coming! The Devil is coming!" He told many other tales that were, well, weird. But you know what? Some people did exactly what they were told and "did not question" the "man of God." His doctrine was quite interesting. He wore his bandana, a cowboy hat, boots and Wranglers, and complained that Christian people "dress up" to go to Church. I thought it was funny since the meetings mostly took place at night, and there is no need for a hat or bandana since there is no sun (inside the building). He preached about signs, wonders and miracles -- although none took place at our church during those two weeks (other than the people that were "slain in the Spirit). When the sick were not healed, Mr. Hogan boldly claimed it was because there was such a "lack of faith" in America. He also scolded the congregation, saying that if you didn't "fall down" when he prayed for you, then you were "fighting the Holy Spirit." Needless to say, most of the congregation "fell down" when he brought them on stage. Mr. Hogan constantly complained about the "plush American lifestyle" amongst believers -- and how Americans can't trust God to take care of them. Yet he then proceeded to take up numerous offerings for support. Hmmm. It was interesting that God was not "taking care" of him with the offerings from Mexico. His messages were simplistic -- and reminded me of a TBN prosperity message mingled with some of the "Toronto Blessing" (of which Mr. Hogan said he was involved), and a little of the "scolding of America" style of preaching. I am not saying that David Hogan is a "false preacher" or a "wolf in sheep's clothing." But he very well may be misled himself. I believe that, as believers, we are commended to "test everything" in all matters of faith, life and doctrine. The messages from "preachers" such as David Hogan is no exception. He lives about an hour down the road from my University, and I have often thought about finding his ministry headquarters. It would be interesting to discuss my concerns with him, and see how he answers such concerns. :-(

I am sorry to here the report that you bring, it dissapoints me to here you say things that he said in the meetings you were in. I have been in many meetings with him in several places around the US and never heard him say or imply that you are resisting God by not falling down. And i have heard the story where he said the devil is coming, although the way you say the one fraise is some what misleading i think. Yes his stories are very far out there, I think the word is supernatural - but then again so are many of the stories in the bible - throw a stick in the water to make a axe head float? Didn't saul see and talk to a spirit. I have never heard about him talking to an owl and i have approximatley 200 hours of audio and video of his preaching. My experiences in Mexico with him and the missionaries that work with him only confirm what preaching i have heard. Like I said he is a man and maybe emotion got the better of him when he was with you. I have seen those that were dead and are now not, and talked to them. And as far as his attitude to americans, I hold it as well and i am one. I talk to people who say they believe in and trust Jesus for there wellbeing, but say they can't live with out health ins. What a pile of balogny, what will they do on the day that there is no more health care like 90% of the rest of the world. Maybe the reason there are more miricles in Mexico then here is because they have no fallback if God doesn't work as they want. I have seen great miracles because i have been in situations where ins. and/or money could not fix the problem. In anycase you are right, we are to test everything, I find nothing unscriptural in what he is teaching and encouraging us to do. I'm not sure what you here him teaching, but i here him teaching odedience to Jesus and the spirit, live a pure and holy life putting everything under the feet of Jesus, and believe. I had to stop in the middle of writing this to visit with a customer who came into my shop. I know who he is, but do not really know him. He said the reason he came into my shop was because he recognized me as a follower of Jesus. I can directly attribute encouragement from David and his preaching to who I am today and thank Jesus for his input into my life. Allthough he talks about gifts of the spirit alot, we are not to judge a man on his words or gifts, but by his fruit - Love, joy, peace, patients, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. I see all of these fruits in Davids life, so there is no doubt to me that he is following Jesus. I think the problem that most people have with him is that we see the power of God in Davids life and those he has taught, and we are either jealous of him or don't believe it is possible. The answer is simple - These signs will follow those who believe.....

WOW thats a lot to think about thanks for your input. When I listen to his teachings Im extremely challenged, and at the same time very caution . I think what most of you said is right on . Ill continue to test him with out condemning his work for the Lord. thank for all your comments and any additional info :-) aaron619

I am glad to hear that there is someone who has actually been there with David Hogan and seen what he says to be true. Even though I have never met him personally, I have met other missionaries who live there in mexico who have said he is the real thing...and I know they are for real and would not lie or exagerate.

I am surprised that so many people, who grow up in our society with all the benefits of american life, are so quick to speak evil of someone who comes from a perspective that is obviously foreign to us. Now for those who say they have listened to him because they have seen him in their church, but have never actually been there in mexico and seen the things he talks about, I say it is foolishly premature to critique the mans testimony having never been there. What I find interesting is that those who have been there, those who stay for a while and experience, they are no longer so quick to cast him out as a heretic. They actually become more on fire for God and acknowledge that God does indeed work in awesome supernatural ways.

I can understand how we here in America are quick to spit insults at others with a different life experience they we do. However, life in the world is not limited to the american experience. Please...for those who don't like the way David comes across, consider what he says and pray about it and seek God. Just quit criticizing him just because his zealousness exceeds our own.

AARON619 wrote:
come on no ones has an opinion on this guy

I suppose I have nothing to loose, as I line up on the Incorrect side of everything else.
I have been in about 12 of his meetings over the years.
I first saw him in 1998 at a bible college.

It was so awesome it changed my life.

Does he have negatives?
Yes.

He has been through some heavy stuff in Mexico and his closest friend was martyred just a few years ago. It really rocked him.

He cares nothing of opinion and he says he will die in Mexico.

He claims over 300 raised from the dead and I believe him.

I have videos of him and can tell his stories almost as good as Dave himself.

David

Here is a story from memory;

There is a village in Mexico where a mother and her two teenage daughters reside.
A sickness came ( sarrapio negro) and killed about half the village. Including the woman's two teenage daughters.
Well in Mexico everyone takes care of their own dead. But there were so many dead that they dug mass graves.
She had to hike about half a days journey to get a sack of lime to pour on top of the dead girls bodies.(to help with containing the disease) It would be a couple of days before they got to the girls.(for burial)

She said to herself "I have got to go get the man of God." The closest church was one Dave started about one days walk away. So she set out to find the man of God.
When she got there it was the next day and the church was having a pastors conference. She told the pastors what happened and they said "we cant go right now because of the conference. and tomorrow we are going to pray all night because we are in an extended fast.

THEY WER'NT AT THE STEAK HOUSE. THEY WERE AT THE THRONE OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

Well,they finally said to her "ok it is time to go"

So they hiked all day to get back to where those two teenage girls were. They were almost ready to be buried when they arrived.

This is now the third day.

They had the two girl laying by the grave still completely covered with lime.

Now those two pastors who had just finished the conference and fast had been praying all night.

Each of the pastors straddled those two teenage girls covered in lime and commanded them back to life.

BOTH THOSE GIRLS STOOD UP!!

David

The controversy brother is because devils hate God and people who will submit to the Holy Ghost and use the authority they have in Christ to damage the devils kingdom.

I rebuke anyone on here who looks down on this man. You go and lay your life down for Christ and give up your home and your wife and your children and everything you have and your pride and all that you are and lay it down at the foot of the Cross and go to those who have not heard the name of Jesus and give your life for those people. Then you come on here and make a post and make negative comments about an imperfect human who has done great things for Christ.

You go and see the dead raised, the blind eyes being opened, and thousands coming into the kingdom then you come and judge people who have done such things for God and have shared much about it. If you haven't done that then go back to your bed room in your own shame and repent and humble yourself and surrender yourself to God and forsake all to follow Jesus and start believing what the Word of God says.

If you are not doing what the Bible says you should be doing, then don't make comments that are negative about people who are doing what God said to do. "GO" into all the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature. Jesus didn't say keep what job you want and I will follow you. He said: If any man will come after me let him pick up his cross and follow ME. Shame on people who discredit people who are going to the unreached, people who are out of touch with God and who are not willing to reach the lost at any cost. May God convict you to GO to the multitudes who haven't heard about Jesus and proclaim Christ to those who are now set to burn in flames eternally separated from God in eternal "never ending" torment where the worm dies not and where the fire is not quenched.

I am sick of theological cowards that aren't willing to go to lands who are serving idols and give up there lives for Jesus. There are hundreds of millions waiting to hear the message "Jesus Christ is Lord" and we are going to have to give an account of what we have done. We need to repent and go after the lost sheep who are trapped with no laborers to reach them.

Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith

i, like many here, have mixed feelings about mr hogan. on one hand i am encouraged and challenged to believe God deeper and totally trust in Him alone for everything. on the other hand, some of the stories that i have listened to on cd and seen on videos seem a little out there.. he did come to my church last fall, and much like the fellow that said that he was like a macho tough apostolic image put forth with little grace, this seemed very accurate.

what is he really like?? i don't know. are his stories 100% true?? don't know.

i think that many of you guys gave good opinions on what you have seen and heard on both sides of the issue. the best thing that we can do is to trust that the Holy Spirit really can lead and guide our hearts if we place all our trust and hope in the Lord. let us take all our cares and all we have unto Him and He will help us and hold us. He is faithful brothers and sisters..

but i wouldn't condemn others because they don't agree with my stance or my opinion. nor would i condemn them because they still live in america and have not left to be a missionary somewhere. not all people all called to uproot their families and live in a jungle in a foreign country.

just a thought.

phil

one thing to keep in mind when"discerning Hogan is that his ministry is mainly to the Aztec Indians in Mexico.
He goes into places others do not dare go.He eats things you would not even look at.He drinks ugly water and his passion for them outweighs even his own family.

He gets frustrated by the lack of missionaries in the jungle. It is dangerous and hazardous to go where he goes.

He is sort of a drill sargent and in a way the weak get culled before he takes them to the really rough places.

He inspires some and infuriates others but his harshness is calculated in that he wants help but there are only a handfull that can hack the jungle and the awful food and the awful water.

On top of all this the witch doctors have been there forever. Strong principalities hinder him and have influenced the indigenous people for many,many years.

He tears down their fetishes and demon alters when he finds them and he has powerful enemies with these demon priests.

More than once they have chanted demon curses over him as he was praying for the sick.

One story I heard hogan pressed his nose against the nose of a witch doctor and cursed his god.

Just keep this in mind when you try to understand Mr hogan.

He is totally out of most everyone league.

David

Hi David...

Are you basing this upon personal experience with David Hogan or simply upon the claims that he makes? Have you been to Mexico with him?

I have been to Mexico on various missions trips and met some great men of God. However, most of the missionaries and local pastors there do not believe the tales told by David Hogan. Some very bluntly call him an opportunist who exaggerates his "work" with unsubstantiated tales of the supernatural.

Interestingly, Mexican television and newspapers are filled with stories that chase claims of the supernatural. Every time a person sees an image of the Virgin Mary on a tortilla, reporters flock to the scene. The media in Mexico also covers stories that are anti-Catholic too. Yet why has there never been a story about one of the supposedly 300-500 people that David Hogan claims to have raised from the dead? Why is he the only guy who can remember talking with a giant owl? Why does he tell stories about the devil chasing him through a village (with Satan even opening and closing gates) when we are told to not fear the devil? Why does he claim that people who are not "slain in the spirit" are "fighting the Holy Spirit?" Why does he say that those who are not healed do not receive healing because of their "lack of faith in the Holy Ghost" -- when Jesus healed many "sinners?"

Please understand that I am not attacking Mr. Hogan. I just feel that we should be cautious with any such tales. Yes, God can raise the dead. But not everyone who makes such a claim has truly raised the dead. We should not be moved based simply on the stories told by those who claim to be apostles or workers of miracles. Likewise, we should not be moved by blatant unwarranted criticism either. However, I have seen believers who took David Hogan's stories as "unquestionable truth" ever since he became well known during his days at the "Toronto Blessing."

I have sat through several meetings with David Hogan. The meetings that I attended were very similar to those described by [url=http://www.christianissues.com/hogan.html]this man[/url]. I left those meetings deeply troubled. While Mr. Hogan attempted to perform miracles in the meetings, there weren't any except for the typical "slain in the spirit" crowds that are evident in many churches. The meetings were filled with "holy laughter," people "slain in the spirit" who were "knocked on the head by God" (as Hogan put it) and quickly got back up on their feet, people in wild convulsions as they felt "holy fire" burning all over them, etc... What was lacking, however, were signs of heartfelt repentance and intense hunger to know the heart of the Lord. Sure, there was a lot of supposedly supernatural stuff going on (and boy were people seeking THAT). However, I didn't see anyone come to those meetings who left with a stronger walk with or hunger for God.

I know that this sounds like a criticism of David Hogan. However, it is actually an observation of his meetings. It is a testimony of what I have heard from very humble pastors and missionaries in Mexico. It has less to do with a criticism of Hogan and more to do with a "testing" of his claims.

:-)

his preaching and ministry is open. He has teams that go down there and the churches I am sure confirm his testimonies.

I dont see the miracles in Mexico as a tribute to Hogan but to the power of the risen savior.

Any of us could go and see the same thing.

David

Understand that I've been writing this for a few hours..it is possible that someone else has already posted a similar thread..perhaps better and more briefly said..but in faith and with much prayer I have gone ahead and posted.

I've never heard of David Hogan until reading the views presented here,the testimonies and all that has been written here..I know that Brother Tom has left all to go out to many foreign countries to preach the gospel.He is no desk theologian..I trust he knows what he observed operating in brother David's life..I also believe that we are being shown all of this for a very crucial reason.There some things that I feel impressed to bring into this conversation regarding this type of calling,those who are observers only and the built in dangers that accompany it all on both sides..I only have the hard won understanding that God has given me to bring to the table..may it be wholesome to the taste..a sweet savor to God in the sharing.

Personally speaking,God told me that America was my mission field..first and foremost.Anyone who thinks that America is not a dangerous place to minister ought to think again.The whole 'I am as tough as nails' thing goes with the territory of being called upon to walk through great danger..I have heard myself say fiercely,'Make my day!'(a remnant from some action movie I once watched)in setting out on a new day that I knew would be wrought with unknown dangers during what you'd think was only a simple prayer walk down the coast.. it was a stance that said..throw at me what you will I will succeed because it is God who is sending me..He goes before me and is my rear guard..and He does not intend that I will fail!It is a facing of the fear headon..refusing to buckle down..and there can be a proud element that comes in,a place where we can become twisted ever so slightly out of plumb with our lowly,loving,Savior if we are not dilligent.What begins as only a degree off, left unadjusted will take even the most anointed servant so out of alignment..that were they able to see where they fell they would be completely undone..Thus we must be wise in what we sat we see if we have not spent the time to pray once seeing..lest we too be held accountable for doing nothing to uphold the ones who we criticise.

Anyone who has not been called to minister primarily in the 'jungles' of America only has a limited point of reference.Are there no murderers,sorcerors,rapists,demon possessed,lawless badguys on every level of society in America? One who has become familiar with the trials/dangers/deprivations of one location,may not have a clue as to what God is doing in the lives of His surrendered ones in America. Simply because God may have preferred to keep these things hidden for a time it does not mean many(though we know we are few relatively speaking) aren't risking everything in obediance to God's call in what is considered 'civilized' territory.

Satan always goes after whatever area that can be exploited in our lives. Mostimes it the places where we see ourselves as being so strong that become our greatest weaknesses..we will remember that His strength is perfected in weakness..in my weakness He is strong..we need balance..Jesus provides for this balance..He is mighty and strong..able to endure all things in us,He strengthens us..but it is His humility that secures us..His mercy that protects us. The boastful pride of life can be subtle..it is the pointing to ourselves in even the smallest of ways that do not glorify God.Our motivations can be hidden when we are unused to looking at ourselves with informed honesty..I am guilty of this at times..mostly when I have been stretched or am emotionally weak..fearing rejection,being defensive due to unfair criticism..that is when my weakness can be exploited..I react unthinkingly instead of being able to respond..which gives me time..a moment of reflection to weigh the necessity of answering or not.If I am not kept current in dealing with what is unfair,being quick to forgive,I will become brittle and proudly defensive..adopting a contemptual attitude for those who are in denial of the work that God has done/is doing.I am more than willing to admit this to help myself be more accountable in reigning in any untoward comment that I might be tempted to make in the future..this is an area I want to have a more complete victory over. If I use what God has done with me as a weapon to goad others or to shame them or as a shield of defense..I have fallen into a snare..'I have done this in Christ! I have seen this,I know this!' If my motive for telling what God has done,or what i know to be true is not born of love and necessity..and expressed in the meekness of wisdom..I have fallen into a snare..my weakness will be exploited,turned in a manner that will do the very opposite..cause others to resist me and the message I bear further. If I am unaware of how my own weaknesses can be used against me and thus the body of Christ as a whole..I will be unable to respond righteously. I will begin to war against myself,because if we are one,then to fight against..have contempt for..be rude and impatient with you,the brethren, is to do it to myself. When I take a stance against an entire group,classifying them as wrong because I've decided that they aren't where they need to be and not having been in much genuine prayer for them...I will not have the love required to make the most impact upon them should I be given the opportunity in an up close and personal way..my judgement,resentment,dissapointed expectations will lead instead of my willingness to be used of God to equip them..to war for them..when I war against I will be looking at them to find a weakness..where are they vulnerable. I will speak about their weakness..condemn or shame them purposefully..like a hostile bully. This is not wisdom.

We are most always seeking to protect ourselves from unnecessary harm..we say we do not love our lives..but the very way we avoid suffering belies our ablity to know ourselves in truth. We will often say we don't care if we are accepted ..but it is not completely true..We know we are not to be swayed by what others think of us,we are before God continuously,living a life that is undeniably cleansed outwardly and are trusting Him for all the inward,these inward things are not nearly so noticeable ways we can be out of plumb with the fullness of the Godhead which dwells bodily in Jesus. We can trust God to be our defense..He may have us explain,when others balk and this is out of mercy..but we will be given the meekness of wisdom in doing so. When we are too attached to being accepted we will see others opinions as offensive..a thrust against us personally,thus we move into a warlike stance and become defensive..and the battle begins in earnest.

Long ago,during a season of deep emotional healing,something happened that opened for me an understanding I have never forgotten.This interesting piece of information was revealed to me, beginning one morning while peacefully wiping down my counters having finished doing the dishes. Out of nowhere..I blurted,"I don't care! I just don't care!"..it shocked me to hear this..only a moment before I was singing a little tune to God..so joyfully content in my work..what on earth? why of course I cared,what didn't I care about..if it came out of me,there might be something going on that I didn't consciously realize.Where did this outburst come from?

Later on in the day it happened again..Now I was really confused..what's going on,Lord? He said He'd show me later..not to be concerned..and so I put it out of my mind.After dinner and children's baths,stories and singing them peacefully to sleep ..it was my time to open my bible,a Christ centered book about the walls of our hearts (my church was using this text to help facilitate a woman's emotional healing course that the men soon decided to join into for themselves)and my journal.

I was rereading where God and I had left off in my writing.I kept track of my progress because what God was doing was so amazing..plowing through every type of block and where it first began in my life,the root causes. Opening memories that had been used to torment my mind..teaching me to forgive the perpetrators who'd been responsible for what I'd suffered. moving me forward into the light of His freedom to love unhindered by my past.I suddenly had a memory flash..one where I was being beaten ,fully clothed into the tub of my bathroom..for yrs I had sought who had done this, why it had happened..but I had nothing but the helpless pain and confusion..my mother had been brutalized as a child by her mother..this while in a Japanese prison of war camp in Indonesia.My mother's main sense of joy was her little sister ,who was born and then died of malnutrition in the camp at 3 yrs..it crushed her..broke something inside.She was never able to fully recieve me ,or love me from my birth..perhaps afraid I too would be taken..so best not to love at all.So when I remembered her beatings that went way beyond controlled discipline into madness..this beating must have come from my mother..but something seemed wrong in this..why could I not remember?

Wait..this evening the whole event opened and oh..how could it be ..it was my father! myt father was not normally my abuser!? Suddenly the full story opened up before me..I'd run away for the 3rd time..unable to fight back..one did not hit one's own mother ..I'd chosen flight. I would stay away until I was caught,hiding wherever I could find shelter.Having been tipped off as to my whereabouts he'd ben able to bring me home..we must have sat in the bathroom together while he talked to me for hours..he was unaware that I was being abused regularly..it floored him yrs later to find out..he wasat his wits end that day..my actions to him were inexplicable..he'd worn himself to a frazzle trying to get me to understand,to understand what I needed but without the key facts,his words only caused me to be lulled into a sense that I was loved..that he cared enough to spend time with me..I was practically asleep,exhausted when he announced that I would need to go get a change of clothes..something warm for the county jail..the juvenile hall was closed for entrance on the weekends..my reaction was one of hysterics..I was being abandoned..his love was not real ..he had no answers for my dilemma..he was giving up on me!.I must have scared him..causing him to think I was going to bolt..I was crying out no! oh no! how can you make me go there..it's cold and dark and boring in the grownup jail..looking from side to side wildly..he struck out believeing he had to subdue me. His frantic fearful blows hurt more than any and all that my mother's anger had inspired. He'd been driven almost crazy fearing for my safety..he had me in his grasp and could not afford to lose me again ..said he didn't know if he would be able to survive the anguish,the pacing ,the fear of not knowing where I was..what was happening to me..(what he didn't know was that I'd been nearly killed the day before..rescued by one of my guardian angels from a mad possessed killer) The only solution he had was to put me where he knew I'd be safe.But to me,relieved to be back home..childishly hopeful for my place in the family being restored,all forgiven, this move was very threatening..to me it meant I was not loved enough to hang in there with,to keep trying till we could uncover the problem..if you won't love me in the midst of this turmoil..not realizing that that he didn't have all the facts..so when I was helped out of the cold hard tub..his apology ringing in my ears..I'm sorry, didn't want to hit you, to hurt you.I was scared you'd run..I'd lose you for good..his fears could not comfort my crushed heart at thinking I was being thrown away. As I crossed the threshold into my room to put on something warm enough for a jail cell..I heard myself say,coldly,"I don't care! If you won't love me even though you don't understand,well then I just don't care! Now I had full understanding where this strange and vehement statement had come from.A hidden place in my past!

The Holy Spirit revealed all those long yrs later that this was a defensive mechanism I projected like a tough shield around my heart to survive the pain of rejection..it is our way of surviving what is unbearable..it is sin..I was unable to bear the pain of being sent away..of not being allowed to just be recieved back into the family fold for another try..I was expendable..unwanted.It was too much..I felt the shield go up as a part of my personality was hardened against caring whether I was loved,accepted in spite of my troubles or simply discarded as too much to deal with.

So that evening under the back portal..I wept at the opened memory..telling my earthly father in my mind(and later on face to face) that I forgave him for not knowing what was going on in his own home,with me.Then came the kicker..God said I needed to ask Him,God, to forgive me for my sin..I was suprised..me!? why?..how was this sin..I was abused.. I was a child..I never knew any better,no one taught me how to deal with this stuff..why should I be responsible.. show me what heading this sin comes under,I balked.

"It just isn't my way..that's why it is sin." was the plain response.."It was denial,untrue and it began in you a pattern of behavior that has undermined you..prevented a part of you from maturing..you did care..you cared so much you refused to feel it anymore.".and I wept remembering the moment before I made this choice to stop caring..and then the numbness that resulted..the hardness that grew in place of the suffering I refused to embrace.He convinced me that when I forsook this way of denial,of sin..sin simply because it wasn't His way,He would remove this root of bitter resentful hardness that had caused me to grow in a tangled manner..it was the beginning of great healing in my father and my relationship,Praise God! It was a breakthrough. Soon after I was able to identify a spirit of rejection that entered my vunerable soul at 2...after a few yrs of being mostly ignored by my mother who simply could not connect..feel any love for me..a spirit vs.just a festering emotional wound and was able to get deliverance from this ruthless foe. God is committed to our healing.We cannot stand in righteousness if we are ignorant to the workings of our souls.

It is good to understand what manner of person we are before we attempt die to our flesh..God would have us be filled with His wisdom and understanding..He would have us be able to recognize the difference between the soul and the spirit.When we have spent time as needed coming to know what helped form our personality..our way of coping,defense mechanisms that are often deeply ingrained and hidden from our own eyes,unless God shows us mercy..leading us gently out of the long dark tunnels of our own making. When we are willing to allow God to reveal where we need healing,it becomes all that more simple to see where others have need of compassion and the prayer that can move mountains for them to begin upon this journey towards healing their souls. I was led to see my need for deeper healing when I began to desire to walk in God's love consistantly..I knew I needed to be conformed more perfectly to Jesus in being able to love with divine love,agape love which did not love in order to be loved in return. Agape love is what gives us the ability to suffer righteously..it is God's love that cannot help but to be concerned..cares for the other regardless if we are loved and accepted,understood or believed.It says I will care righteously for all who I come in contact with,irregardless of how they respond to me.

My ears prick up when I hear someone say..I don't care if I am recieved,or if they recieve my words..because I know the Holy Spirit cares very much if they don't recieve the truth..So I know this one has yet to understand the workings of his own soul in this denial of care..God brings us not to a hardened stonelike place in our hearts,..but rather to a soft and tenderhearted place,that is not afraid or unwilling to suffer..we don't always grieve because it is we who are rejected ..no.. but if we feel hurt it is mandatory to admit it..not holding onto the emotion..but not denying it either, asking for the divine perspective..How would you have me see this..in time we will be trained to know the higher perspective..the compassion that flows towards those who are blinded by doubt and unbelief..the caution we all rightly feel due to the reality of false signs and wonders..we can praise others for their dilligence to test and try us..they may see something we are blind to and with the meekness of wisdom trust God to settle it all in our hearts and minds as well.

In dividing between soul and spirit..through the bone to get to the marrow..I am becoming more adept at sensing when my hard stance is bone without the lifegiving marrow of His Spirit.I am fortunate in being made a woman..we are known to be more intouch with our emotions..I know it is difficult for men to give much heed to the emotional part of their being,oftimes it is considered weak,feminine to be rightly sensitive..but God gave us emotions..God is an emotional God..Jesus was emotional..perfectly so..He does not do away with our souls..He transforms them to be conformed to Christ.

I have known many men who have come from radical pasts..who have been used of God mightily only to fall prey to many weaknesses due to an inability to determine where they needed healing in their souls..this being left as unimportant to allow God to deal with,or for them to pay attention to..as something too uncomfortable to sit still long enough to be given clear insight into.and so they were made weak where they thought themselves too strong to bother giving attention to... this became their Achilles heel..they grow everywhere else but in the very place they would someday needed to have had the understanding..it also hinders them from being able to rightly address other's problems effectively. The Counselor aspect of Christ's ministry in us is left undeveloped..we are not able to be utilized to lead others were we have been unwilling to go ourselves.

When God has His way with me in tearing down my prideful barriers..I see that I do care..it is grieveous to God that I not be accepted..for me to not acknowledge the pain it causes me and God is to be in denial of what is true..better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way..this saying 'I do not care!" in whatever the circumstance is nothing more than a hardening of the heart..a self protective unrighteous shield against suffering..because there is suffering in rejection..we don't know how to embrace the suffering for righteousness sake very well at all,we have to be trained in this..it is not natural to man..it is heavenly.

Many of the folks who are called out to do these more obvious works..or who face great dangers are misunderstood by those who have never known such a life..a common mistake many make is to see the outward dangers as being the greatest obstacles..we are wowed by this stuff..action hero stuff..but if you'd ever been involved in a calling that faces danger you would soon find..God has abundantly provided for all this..it is all dialed in for you..maybe with men it does not appear to be so..perhaps you are always thinking you could fight your way out of anything that got physical unless you were too outnumbered..but God impressed upon me when I don't try to defend myself ,more than likely the angels will step in and perform their function...if I am relying on my own strength they probably will not be moving due to my mindset..Many underestimate the fact that God does not send where He does not defend..also..He gives you the ticket right before the train..(from Corrie ten Boom's story)should you be called to leave behind your body because of some evil doers wicked plan..all is provided in the stand and deliver dept.,grace enabling us to get the job done.

Where our action figure type ministers are in the most danger is in what comes against them on the inside..will we ,as one with them ,know what we are looking at when we see that they have not had a chance for their soul to catch up to what God is doing with their yielded spirit..It is God who is doing the work through their spirit which is one with Christ..while the oftimes immature soul trails behind. This is how I come to see it..If I am not given any down time to process what has transpired during times where alot is happening in a constant and prolonged period of time..our soul needs maintaining..where have I been wounded and not forgiven,have I become proud because of this great favor..has Satan planted something subtle that will cause me trouble should I not recognize his scheme? Knowing my own history helps me to be watchful over the places I have fallen before..but it also helps me be more firm..and honest with myself.

We do not like to admit that we are not already so spiritual that we never need to watch over our own souls..this is why God has provided everyone else who can see you much more clearly..they are not as invested in believing that you are perfect and in no need of help. Although many become blinded by someone's calling or gifts..thus swallowing everything they say and do,defending them like a shield..these identify with the gift..the calling..usually aspiring to a similar one..we are to aspire to be like Jesus..we are to be faithful to our selves..our whole body to help maintain one another's health..spirit soul and body as called of God..when you have a person who is not very emotionally mature..has little understanding regarding his own soul..which does not always mean they will be obviously overly emotional..it can be the opposite...they can be cut off from the wholesome aspect of a transformed soul..mind will and emotions..you can float for a time..operating in the spirit..as God deems it so..but there comes the time in every believer's life when they will be brought to see their need to allow God to work in their emotions.If not they just grow harder and more rigid and brittle lacking in emotional insight and become entangled in the works,office or calling being 'who' they are,not something God does through them. this is to lose the innocense of a being a child of God.

Without the needed balance,'their' ministry or what they identify with is all tangled up with what makes them 'important'or their 'proof' that they are in right standing with God..how can we be in right standing with God if we have hardened against our own body. When we say we don't care we have become hardened.

For years when people asked what do you do..I would answer something like..it is not what I do..it is what I am..I am a child of the living God.This way I moved them out of trying to compartmentalize me by my function ..whether they were worldly or redeemed..I would have them know me by the spirit not according to the flesh..I also desired to level the field..bring the interaction to a place where we were children..open and eager to make one another's aquaintance for the sheer pleasure of having a new friend....this disarmed folks into dropping their own need to be something esteemed of men or even looked down upon,judged as less than. If they were going to interact with me, it wasn't going to be about how I could be an asset to them in any other way but to point them to the Father right off the bat..establishing a taking off point for them to examine where they themselves were in that perspective.This is not to say that what we do isn't important in the overall scheme of things..we are to do righteously..doing all as unto God..but even our righteousness God gives us this, so that no man can boast..except in God's great and exceeding mercy.

When we get angry with someone who gets stretched the way someone like David Hogan does,,becoming indignant with his frailties..this shows a lack of understanding as to the nature of man's soul.When it comes to our attention that he is in trouble,it is then our responsibilty to lift him up where we see his weakness.Do we speak out and say where he is not presenting the full truth..this should clue us in to where he is being distracted..or has begun to lose his focus..be a doer of the word right where you are..be a partaker in the ministry that is in danger of going off track..help support the weak places God is allowing you to see..first with your prayers..and partake of the reward..must we always be reminded of the reward to become more motivated to love righteously.

When we rise up in indignation..is it our pride rising up to meet the pride we see in the other..pride does not conquer pride..it only fuels it all the more..we claim we are defending God..He needs no defense from us..we are all being tested in all this..the reporter and the reciever of the report.So when the one who is rejected..which Jesus warned we would be.. is unable to process this unpleasantness in a Christlike manner..this one will begin to harden under the strain of the test should he become offended by the denial of God's work..and possibly because of his overidentification with the work/gift itself..instead of drawing closer to the One doing the work,Jesus..this hardening due to denial is another form of denial..thus sin begetting sin..the naysayers shame is in what he helps to cause in another..but everyone is ultimately unable to cast blame. God sees it all.This becomes a place where we can share in His sufferings..because He still suffers with us in all things..we can embrace the suffering and the fact remains that the unreceptive attitudes of those who refuse to acknowledge God's work when it is of Him ,grieves the Holy Spirit..grief hurts folks..you can feel it,sense it in your spirit. This is not immature flesh..this is being attuned to God.

We are exposed by the words we choose to use to state our position when we feel threatened..when our validity is questioned..the carnal man will defend himself against the suffering that comes from having to embrace rejection,
putting up a shield that is not born of faith..Warring within the ranks against one another is counterproductive and it happens in more ways than we are usually aware until we are brought to task under the thrall of God's perfect agape love.

There is the comparison problem that plagues anyone who is used of God..this is merely competition..it is unholy as is ambition concerning the things of God..who is the most powerful..anointed..best..and on it goes..I don't like to see anyone say things like..he is the most this and that preacher in the land..yikes what are you trying to do to the guy..take him off the pedestal brother..you are going to throw him off the first time he is caught out in something you don't approve of anyway. Satan's tactics for snaring the believers is not hidden from us..we would be wise to consider,while the one goes out and upon coming back reports in to encourage and exhort..while the other sits observing the presentation..whether solid in the conviction they are doing all God has called them to at the time..both are being tested..the tactic may differ in how it manifests..but the goal is still the same..get them to war in the ranks..divide and conquer! What I see as the danger to those who do actually go..I mean really Go without any reservations is that there will come a time when Satan will approach and present His damning judgements..to the zealous man ,scripture will be used to cinch the condescending judgemental noose round his neck..it will come as a railing and seemingly justified attitude towards the folks who these have 'discerned' as not living up to their true callings(as if they were our servants and we know all things)..this is none of our business,,really..and yes this type of arrogance is very noticeable..especially when you are a doer of the word as well..but not all are called to be the same type of mover and shaker in the kingdom..there are diversities of ministries..a hidden intercessor will be just as obediant and just as 'powerful' full of grace and divine unction as the guy who faces down the 'bad guy' nose to nose..because the intercessor faces the very powers behind the flesh and blood guy who is merely a pawn for this darkness.

What David Hogan has perhaps lost sight of in the midst of the rigorous strain of what he has endured, what he has been called to be in the kingdom ,is the reality of the entire body being jointly fit together,moving in unison following the Head..Jesus..empowered by our Head Jesus who makes us all one.

Someone who continually sees themselves as superior to the rest of the body obviously does not realize what is going on behind the 'scenes' that they get to partake in.Not everyone is required or qualified to do the kind of work that is being described here on this post about this type of ministry..God makes everyone of us uniquely qualified for the work we are called and then chosen to partake in. We are perfected in the work as we go along..no one has a clue until he begins in obediance..this is a matter of diversity not comparisons..without the prayers of the saints..without all the other lives being lived righteously,sprinkled strategically like salt across the planet..Christ being made manifest on the earth through all of these.. the darkness would be so great..it would be nigh unto impossible to step outside our frontdoors for the lack of restraint in the sinful deeds of those who do not walk in righteousness.Any one who has begun in this type of seemingly greater work that does not understand to be extremely grateful to God for placing those in the body who stay put and pray in power..intercessors that are upholding us when we begin to stumble over ourselves..that without them we would not be so successful..no part of the body succeeds without an enormous amount of support from the functioning whole.

I have seen in my own life how God has made certain to impress upon me the very clear awareness that wherever I am no matter what..I carry with me the entire body of believers within..in my heart. We are either onebody inone spirit serving one Lord..all of one basic faith or we are lone wolves..the idea of being a lone wolf is enough to shake anyone out of their proud stance..heaven forbid we lose sight of the bigger picture.

I present myself before Him for that continual and further purification of any last vestiges of pride,especially in the way I view my fellow Americans..and all the rest of the body at large..to set myself in a category in my own mind as being superior to anyone simply because God made me the way He did is ignorance..God's decision regarding what I would be capable of enduring or understanding has nothing to do with how amazing I am..not ever. We are just not amazing..He is though..very much so! He has taken it upon Himself to teach us what we need to know to be who we are in regards to His divine will..He guides,He moves,He positions..it has nothing to do with what a courageous, endurance oriented,able to do without,tough and special person I am..forget it..any surrender I have achieved ..this is from Him..whatever impact I have had..this is still Him..it has been what I was called to do..He taught me as I obeyed Him..He provided discipline,even the obediance..it is not something to boast about..but if I am called to share to increase the faith of others,to inspire my brethren to never fear because no matter what God is there for us,mightily..then I must share as He bids me.

The one area I have seen where we become displeasing to God after being used to do whatever God does thorugh us, is when we compare ourselves among ourselves..this is not wisdom.

Gracious is the soul that can inspire without guilt tripping or shaming folks repeatedly..this is manipulation..it is a power trip..and we must pray for those we see having reached a certain threshold in their service..its simply their due service..they were designed to weather those conditions..it is nothing of any great thing to marvel over,except to marvel at the Creator Himself..it is God who is giving them the strength and stamina..the courage itself comes upon saying yes..I will go..it is provided..we cannot boast of these things..He provides these virtues as it is necessary to getting the job done..tools for the trade if you will. When we forget these simple facts we become full of our own achievements..simply because we were allowed to take part in something marvelous,and then to turn around and bash others over the head with how magnificent 'our' ministry is when it is Jesus' ministry through us ..well no doubt people have begun to resist this..It becomes difficult to bear..however in this lies the challenge for those who can see where the one made for tromping through jungles needs our help.. because he does not discern perfectly the body he will become sick..i se that he is not well inly by what has been revealed.. all is not well with him emotionally..and yes,it's true, many are asleep at the wheel..we must be so full of faith for these..seeing that which is not as though it was..we will believe for God to mercifully reveal what we see the brother needs,supplying the lack in the right heart and mind ..hopefully before a terrible fall...and also praying in nonjudgemental concern..with genuine love..believing for God to awaken the ones who are dozing and/or indignant in the pews...how can we war for them..support them..we support ourselves in this effort..must we need to be reminded of how we will be benefitted in our prayers for the brethren to motivate us?

We praise God for the work He is doing..we desire to help protect the weak who are blinded by there own strengths and having become blind are headed for a fall.. this is our ever present challenge..will we carry a torch for all who believe regardless of where they may differ or are weak..may we take up this same torch and run with it.

Brethren, let us guard the door of our own hearts before searching out the hearts of others.

In this we shall do well.

Hi JesusInMe...

Brethren, let us guard the door of our own hearts before searching out the hearts of others.

In this we shall do well.

When I have sat in the congregations of David Hogan, the meeting reminds me of many other "miracle" preachers. The messages are usually filled with testimonies of the miraculous and suggestions about what to expect at the end of the meetings. I'm not saying that this is "the power of suggestion" -- but many of these sort of preachers appeal to our emotions with fantastic stories of the supernatural. From David Hogan to Rodney Howard Browne (both figures in the "Toronto Blessing"), the messages usually involve storytelling rather than a presentation of the Gospel. People already know what to expect at the end of the David Hogan meeting.

David Hogan will both thrill and inspire the congregation with supernatural tales of trips to unnamed villages in Mexico. He will talk about getting chased (physically) by Satan, talking to a demon in a 8-12 foot tall owl, and how God has used him to raise over 300 (or sometimes, 500) people from the dead. At the end of the meeting, Hogan will call for people to come forward, anoint them with oil while yelling "FIRE!" and the people will fall (or in my case, [i]be pulled[/i]) backward into the arms of his assistants and bodyguards (yes, he called them his "bodyguards"). Whoever doesn't fall down, Hogan will claim, is "fighting the Holy Ghost!" People will quickly get back to their feet, go back to their seats, give another large offering, come back the next day, and repeat. At the end of his meeting, he will act physically exhausted -- as if he was being physically drained by these "acts of God" and almost collapse into the arms of his men. He will be taken to the trailer/bus waiting for him outside.

I have attended one meeting of Rodney Howard Browne. Interestingly, the same sort of heaviness that I felt during a David Hogan meeting, I have felt during the meeting with Rodney Howard Browne. I felt like weeping loudly and uncontrollably because something just didn't "set right" inside of me. Yet the people will fall down, act like they are drunk, return to their seats, give a big offering, and then return to their towns in their Church vans. In our van, the other youth in my Church's youth group acted the same way on the way home as they did on the way there. They cursed, talked about movies, rock music and television, and even one fight occurred -- all with the people who had acted like spiritual "drunks" just an hour earlier.

Dear brother, I am not saying that either man is unsaved. I don't know where they stand with God any more than anyone else. I do, however, agree that we should not accept their words simply because they said them. God can certainly perform great things. In fact, I have seen many great things in both my life and in the lives of those around me. Yet I do not boast in those things in order to "set the tone" of a meeting. I do not believe that a man like Hogan is an "apostle" simply because he says so.

We need to be wise. Like you said, we need to "guard our hearts." We should guard it from both unwarranted criticism and unwarranted acceptance of such tales. Our hearts, minds and spiritual eyes should remain fixed upon Christ Jesus. We should be willing to "test the spirits" to the point of testing "everything." (I Thessalonians 5:21). Interestingly, I noticed that most people don't remember anything that either Rodney Howard Browne or David Hogan said during their "message." All they can remember were the stories of the supposedly "supernatural." Is it any wonder that this was the extent of their sermons? They spoke almost entirely about the supposed personal spiritual "manifestations" than they did anything else.

It all did ring a bit shallow to me. But you are right: We would do well to search our own hearts rather than hastily accept the claims of others.

:-(

Hi dorcas…

I respect that you have attended one of David Hogan's meetings.

”storytelling”
Does this mean you believe Jesus was mistaken in His ministry methods? That He should not have done 'mighty works' for the purpose of drawing people to faith and repentance? (Matt 11, Luke 10)

If Jesus did not expound the scriptures to His disciples until after His resurrection - apart from Luke 4:21 ... 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears', - is it actually wrong to present the gospel in the form of stories, as He did, and those who reported on His ministry must have done?

David Hogan’s messages, however, were filled with his own claims of about supernatural events that he either performed or witnessed. He talked about HIMSELF over and over again. He talked about raising the dead, healing the blind, restoring limbs to the limbless, etc… Hogan talked about being physically chased by Satan (invisible, but polite enough to open and close the Church gate). Hogan spoke about talking to a huge demonic owl. Hogan spoke boldly about himself. He must have uttered his claim to be both a prophet, apostle and man-of-God more times than I could count. He warned people about not “heeding the words” of the man-of-God. Instead of telling stories about the work of Christ, he talked about his own “gifts” and “manifestations.”

“he will act physically exhausted -- as if he was being physically drained by these "acts of God" and almost collapse into the arms of his men.”
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This is not an uncommon experience among those who minister under the power of the Spirit; my impression from listening to Carter Conlon, is that it can follow particularly powerful moves of God in mission situations. I can believe (making sense of destinysweet's discourse) that this would be all the more true of someone who had not received strengthening from God in the parts of their life which most needed it.

Sister, I have worked in the mission field. The physical labor was certainly hard work. We worked nonstop for two weeks with very little sleep and no showers in the cold huts and caves of the Sierra Madre Occidental. We worked by the sweat of our brows all day long and labored with our voices during the evenings. Yet the meetings that were conducted actually invigorated us. We would feel the strength of the Lord as we witnessed individuals who gave their lives to the Lord. It is amazingly refreshing to see the Lord work in a person who has never heard the Name of Jesus.

Another question, if I may, please: do you believe God would rather not have His mighty works publicised?

destiny said: 'better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way...'

Isn't this that destiny describes - the 'harsh tough edgyness' - of men like Hogan, what you are uncomfortable with, (as well as the association being made between money and prayer) - and perhaps also, you do not believe it is God doing the works through him?

As far as the association between Hogan and money, where should I begin? He took up multiple offerings each night. He often took a “traditional offering” at the beginning of the meetings (after the songs were finished) and then one at the end. His money message mirrored those told at most prosperity churches, although Hogan claimed to live in a similar manner as the villagers that he claims to work with.

I'll be honest, I don't quite know what to think, except I see a parallel between destiny's testimony, and Art Katz's testimony, which rings true in my experience also.

Art said
Quote:
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God shall use even the errors of those who have acted out of real love for Him to teach them how to better discern His voice. How else shall we learn?
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Any ideas?

Has David Hogan raised over 500 men from the dead? Has he healed men and women every day in Mexico? Has he really spoken with an 8-12 foot tall owl? Was he really physically chased by Satan through his village? Are all of the people who do not get “slain in the spirit” at his meetings really “fighting the Holy Ghost?” Does Hogan really get so weak at the end of each night that he has to use a wheelchair or be carried out of the building? Is the reason that so few (if any) miracles are displayed while he is in the United States due to the fact that there is so much more faith amongst the (supposed) witch doctors in Mexico? Ironically, there is plenty of “faith” in his meetings to get “slain in the spirit,” have holy “convulsions” on the carpet, speak in prophesies, etc… -- but not enough to get healed.

I am trying to be extremely careful to not criticize the man. At the same time, I would like to warn others to be careful about his claims. He is not an apostle simply because he claims to be one. He is not a miracle worker simply because he says so. Yet he became verbally upset at the thought of questioning his claims or stories. I don’t really think that Paul would have become so upset. He didn’t get upset when the Bereans searched the Scriptures before believing him. Jesus didn’t get so upset when Thomas at first did not believe. So yes, we need to be extremely careful with men like this.

At the meetings that I attended, I was astonished by the multitudes of people who took David Hogan at HIS word. The pastor even claimed that those who questioned the meetings were "attending the wrong Church." This is NOT the manner of examination that we are commanded in the New Testament.

“Test everything. Hold on to the good.” – I Thessalonians 5:21

:-(

Chris, thank you for what you brought forward here earlier.

[url=http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm]The Remarkable Exploits of David Hogan[/url]

Hi everyone,

Notme, you said,

"Don't worry about being "harsh". The voice of truth is as sharp as a razorblade."

This seems very dangerous to me to say this here, in this way.

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

The same sword you wield could be used to put you to death also.

I dont like certain things about Hogan either but for anyone called into the same calling as hogan he is extremely inspiring.
He treats some people the way he does because he has zero patience for certain mindsets.
He dislikes the fact that there are so few missionaries in his area of ministry.

He is effective beyond 99% of most ministries and thats all those Indians care about

Hi, to everyone

There are two types of fountains.
Jesus is the only fountain on Earth that contains the Love of God.
Love should be the topic of Christian conversation.
We are harmless, we love our neighbors, we love God.
We fear God, we should keep our Father’s commandments to love our neighbors.
We are His sheep, Have you ever saw two sheep fighting like goats? No!
Leave the wilderness of murmuring behind and by faith look across Jordan.
Don’t drink from the fountain of gall that the world drinks from.

There is no name above the name of Jesus at my house.
There is no name above the name of Jesus in Europe.
There is no name above the name of Jesus in Mexico.

Eddie

[b]gallimatia: n.[/b] [i]nonsense; talk without meaning[/i]

Much of that here ...

If just 2% of all these embellishments, exaggerations, flat out lies, repugnant character qualities are true it is more than enough of an indictment. There is enough testimony and blatant attributes exposed from the man's own lips that it is uncanny and incredible that there is any propping up of any of this. How much has to go by the wayside unaddressed to speak of any good, of any equivocating or defending of such outlandish claims, character and butchering of the scriptures?

"[i]Somebody needs to stand up. ... He has serious mental problems"[/i]

"[i]Hogan can make all the boastful claims he wants but the Church must stand up and say, “Prove it!”[/i]

'[i]Landry openly disclosed that “David’s problems go way back and he has been telling tall tales his whole life. I have caught him in so many lies that I have lost track.”

When asked if he thought Hogan was a pathological liar, Landry said, “Yes” without hesitation.[/i]'

[url=http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm]The Remarkable Exploits of David Hogan[/url]

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for [u]liars[/u], for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:6-10

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all [u]liars[/u], shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:8

Before anyone gets themselves all bent out of shape over this or wants to begin the discrediting process of an article, compare it with the other testimonies here. Again, if even smallest percentage collectively doesn't paint a very incredible picture ... Prove that he never said what he said or otherwise prove that he did indeed say what he did and bring forth evidence backing the claims ... at the least. Moreover, just where one would find any scriptural precedent for the vast majority of all this? It is almost strange to say that this could be secondary scriptural warrant, in regards to the claims when the heart issues, pride, haughty, boastful attributes are so obnoxiously loud. How can this be give a pass?

Dodging or simply ignoring the incredulous issues of integrity, character and honesty at the expense of ... who knows what that is being defended is to put one in the place of being an accessory to the same crimes.

Dear saints, there is nothing mean spirited about it, but we just cannot be so easily deceived, we must test all things and judge with right judgment. Don't get over emotional about it or turn this into a commotion, just think, consider ... please.

Hi psalm1...

I dont like certain things about Hogan either but for anyone called into the same calling as hogan he is extremely inspiring.
He treats some people the way he does because he has zero patience for certain mindsets.
He dislikes the fact that there are so few missionaries in his area of ministry.

Justo Jordan Chavana has helped build churches in Mexico and Cuba for over two decades. A former drug addict and member of the mob, Justo Chavana spends his life to bring the Gospel to the indigenous tribes in Mexico (such as the Tarahumara). God has transformed him from a wild and pompous drug addict into a humble servant of the Cross. Chavana is also saddened by a lack of support from the American church -- but he is encouraged that his labor is not in vain. He has often stated that God will support those efforts that are ordained by the Lord. Incredible things have happened during his trips into Mexico, but these do not evolve into a point of self-adulation. Justo Chavana has changed from a wealthy drug distributor into an extremely humble man of God. Other men, like Matias Duran, also humbly bring the Gospel into poor unreached areas of Mexico. These men are concerned more about the welfare and spiritual condition of those on the mission field than their reception and respect by other Christians.

David Hogan, on the other hand, is willing to label anyone who questions or disagrees with his own claims or tactics as a "devil." Hogan's messages are simply tales of his supernatural abilities and a prominent display of theatrics on stage. While Chavana and Hogan are supposedly called into the same sort of "ministry" in Mexico, there is a world of difference between the two men.

He is effective beyond 99% of most ministries and thats all those Indians care about

The bottom line is that we must be careful with our words -- both of criticism and support. We should not criticize men based upon personal prejudices unless an issue can be raised that is based upon the Word of God. Likewise, we should NEVER accept the claims of a man of God based solely upon his own tales and those of his followers. My problem with Hogan is not one of personality conflict. Rather, it deals with the doctrinal issues that are implied by his supernatural claims. I am a Pentecostal believer. However, I do not hastily accept many of the supernatural claims of a man who talks with demonic owls, cast demons out of 4 year olds, physically runs from demons or claims that those who do not readily accept his claims are "devils."

:-(

Do we see our brother's sin? Does he have sickness within his soul..his mind, will and emotions at emnity with the perfection that is in Christ?
Why do we see it? Because the light of Christ exposes the darkness and all things are coming to light..being exposed..God would not have us decieved.
What are we called to do about it? What does God desire be done? Redemption!Healing,Restoration!

We'd best talk to God about him first,this one being exposed..praying earnestly,interceding on his behalf..are we not God's royal priesthood? Our High Priest stands watching all the words fly and He says,Pray my people.I stand ever in intercession..so must you.Then you will know what to speak..always in that order..then you will be full of merciful Grace and you will direct others to pray as well.

And I hear the voices of many rising up to God.
Give us revival! We need revival!

Why do we not see revival..O God? We love you God!

He says it is because we do not love our neighbor as we love ourselves. What if you were Hogan,try to imagine yourself in this kind of trouble..God have mercy!

Would you lay down your life for him,for David Hogan..how about a few hours sustained prayer..How about a few minutes each day,at least as many as the letters of the words you've spoken/written to point out his failings...effective prayer born of faith in God's all encompassing mercy ..the same mercy that saved you...Loving spirit filled prayer? To the measure we mete out..this is what recieve in return. God looks out over the earth and what will He see? Will He find faithfulness? An outpouring of love for the body falling asleep,away,in peril,distress? This He says is a key many do not use..it dangles uslessly at their sides..unused..unattended.

First things first..Pray earnestly and genuinely..if He says to speak..then your words will impact the man as well as those you seek to warn..this is the double edge aspect many fail to discern..the Word of God never returns void..it always goes forth and accomplishes that which it was sent forth to do..so if you are speaking..lest your words fall to the ground because they are not what you are to be speaking..or the way..The Way you are to be speaking.What a useless waste of time,which is opportunity..a window in which to get the job done,to accomplish what God would see accomplished,the time is short.

Pray..do unto him what you would have him do for you if the roles were reversed ..if you were in his condition.

The Father's Love and Christ's passion come to earth..His sacrifice and His merciful forgiveness is the only thing that took our blinders off our eyes so we could see our need to humble ourselves before Him,making us able to see our sin..is our brother blind..unable to see..however we are able to see? God cared when we were too blind to see,can we do no less but to faithfully adminster that same care and mercy towards those we see are out of the Way..we see it so we can help him...bottom line.Our prayers will reach alot further than hasty words spoken out of season..but our words spoken as a prayer..as our life must be as a living prayer unto Him..therein lies the effectiveness..the ability to help create the necessary change.

Pray! then speak! Let all things be done in ..what? in order! Pray first..has He released you to speak? Then speak with confidence.You will speak rightly..with power born of love..pure and effective. Expect change. Faith sees that which cannot be seen, as already coming to pass. Is it God's will for your brother,your neighbor who you might not call your brother, to be made right? God would have none perish in their sins..Go ahead,be in expectation for miracles..the miracle of a changed heart and mind results in a changed life..a life that will Glorify God for His Name's sake! God is gracious..He will answer the heartfelt prayers of His saints which are in alignment with His perfect will..Love..This is His perfect will..Pray..Be being filled with the Spirit of grace and mercy..He fills, we pour forth in prayer,He refills..it becomes automatic..a constant..are you trained in this...ask for Him to give you such a heart as this..it is His Heart..it is His Way,His Will.

We desire revival? Love God,obey Him only..be disciplined by Him,trained under His mighty hand.
Be the holy priesthood! Love your neighbor!Pray!
Again, I beseech you in this, Pray!

Notme, you said

"What I meant by this was that Brothertom's post sounded a bit apologetic and fearful, as if he didn't have the right to say what he said, at the core of which is the fear of man."

But he said he had given his opinon. Not the word of God.

Paul said our speech should be always with grace, seasoned with salt. And James warns us about being teachers and giving offence.

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

- John 5:30(KJV)

Well spoken Brothertom.

Amazing difference between star names, and the humble servants of Jesus Christ who through all these centuries have only sought only to glorify God regardless of what earthly vessel is used in the process.

1 Timothy 1:17 (NKJV) 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Clint

Jesus opened blind eyes, raised the dead,
healed leporsy, cast of devils...

These are some of the same miracles in Davids ministry.

Jesus offended religious people.
David does too.

Religious people in Jesus' day did no miracles.
Same results in our day.

I think it would be wise to shake of the critics
and get on our face an ask God why don't we get any results like Jesus and his friend David.

Hi firestorm08...

Welcome to SermonIndex! Let me encourage you to utilize the many resources available using the MAIN MENU on the left of the screen.

I suppose that the difference here is that we KNOW that Jesus did all of these things. We only hear David Hogan's claims about such things. Yet even those claims are both unsubstantiated and do not bear witness with what is written in the Word of God.

There are many preachers who claim to be "men of God" and who boast to have raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, visited Heaven, etc... We certainly know that God can do these things with men. Are we supposed to believe them just because they say it is true?

Anyway, welcome to the forums, brother!

:-)

Jesus offended religious people.
David does too.

Religious people in Jesus' day did no miracles.
Same results in our day.

Brother Paul