can the teachings of Jesus be compared to those of paul's?

found a site where the teachings of Jesus Christ and revelations alone are used as the guide in our walk as opposed to the incorporation of the teachings of paul and the other writers of the new testament.paul, he said, based his teachings on human reasoning and philosophy. the site's called www.discipleship.net and if i understand the premise, the site founder says we find all that we need with the words of Jesus.the site goes on to say that the church as we know it today does not resemble anything that was taught by Jesus.is this in conflict with the scriptures and if so, where are these scriptures located?

paul, he said, based his teachings on human reasoning and philosophy. the site's called www.discipleship.net and if i understand the premise, the site founder says we find all that we need with the words of Jesus.Here is an argument which is based on a completely wrong premise.The gospels are a record of Christ, His teaching and His living and work when He was in the flesh as the single grain of wheat which came to fall to the earth to die.The Epistles are the teaching of Christ as the Resurrected Lord and indwelling Spirit in the many grains who are born and produced in His resurrection by His indwelling Life.The Epistles are the revelation of Christ Himself in His body interpreting and applying all that He is and all that He accomplished in judicial redemption and in His organic salvation through His resurrection Life.There is a difference in time and in covenant, but not in authorship.All scripture is inspiried (God breathed) and is profitable for teaching, reproof, etc.Graftedbranch

I do not know of a Christian group in history that thrived on God, was holy, lived in a state of revival and were on fire for God that did not use all 66 books of the bible and rely on Paul's teachings as much as Jesus'. The reason the church today does not resemble Jesus' teachings is because they are not living them out. Peter, the one whome Jesus entrusted as leader of his church, commended Paul's writings. If anyone should have spoken against Paul as a heretic or as one who falsely claimed to know what Jesus taught, it was Peter.2 Peter 3:14-17 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."He warns that Paul's writings are, indeed, complex and can be used to your own destruction (as many in the church today do use them). But, he commends him as a brother and commends his epistle. Jesus, is, indeed the cornerstone, but the apostles are the foundation of the house of God, the church. Ephesians 2:19-22 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

JFEdgar wrote:The reason the church today does not resemble Jesus' teachings is because they are not living them them..... If anyone should have spoken against Paul as a heretic or as one who falsely claimed to know what Jesus taught, it was Peter.....He warns that Paul's writings are, indeed, complex and can be used to your own destruction (as many in the church today do use them). But, he commends him as a brother and commends his epistle. here is where i get confused, i see the church adhering to the teachings of paul with things such as women's place, works and faith, elders, morality, gifts of the Spirit, etc.. but would paul recognize the church if he walked in on a typical sunday? also, why are paul's teachings so confusing and complex to adults as compared to the teachings of Jesus? if the Body was living as Jesus taught it, would the church need the teachings of paul?peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth: there is nothing false about him." john 7:18

Peter, the one whome Jesus entrusted as leader of his church, commended Paul's writings. If anyone should have spoken against Paul as a heretic or as one who falsely claimed to know what Jesus taught, it was Peter.Paul in Colossians 1:25 says, "Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me to complete the Word of God... which is, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"IN another place Paul says, "All in Asia have forsaken me...". That is they turned away from His ministry.Paul was given by God to complete the word of God which is the revelation of the mystery which is 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory".It is only in Paul's epistles that we have the full revelation of Christ and the church as His Body, God's building, and the Bride of Christ.Paul was entrusted with the ministry to "complete the Word of God". And Christ appeared to Him and said that he would be His witness to all He revealed and in all He would appear to him.Paul's epistles are the completion of the Word of God and the full revelation of Christ and the Church.Graftedbranch

In any study of Paul's writtings it "must" be rembered that Paul wrote to Gentiles who knew nothing of Jewish tradition and teachings. So Paul was more of an educator, where as Jesus spoke the common lauguage of the time and that to the jewish mind, in picture and examples they from thier cultural background would have understood. A closer look at both Paul and Jesus shows deep roots in thier teachings from the old testament, seems they both enjoyed the book of Deuteronomy as well as the prophets.

I would suggest you avoid that website. These kind of teachers thrive on planting doubt in people's minds about the Word of God. I second Kripy's advice here. In addition to the great responses below I wanted to bring up a conversation from this site awhile back about the "red letters" in our bibles.The simple thing to keep in mind is that a hundred years ago some bible marketing whiz came up with the idea of printing the words spoken from the physical larynx of Jesus in red ink...which belies the fact that all of scripture should be therefore printed in red ink because all it is the Word of God! I remember a funny story where Ron Bailey once met someone who said they had a red letter bible in which all the words of Jesus were printed with red ink...I think he said something along the lines that well, he had a black letter edition...where all the words of God were printed in black. ;-) Perhaps this is an important point to remember as we read our scriptures, even as we strive to understand the purpose and clarify the meaning of various texts.Blessings,MC

So Paul was more of an educator, where as Jesus spoke the common lauguage of the time and that to the jewish mind, in picture and examples they from thier cultural background would have understood. Paul according to his pedegree outlined in Phillipians 3 was among the formost authorities on Jewish tradition and Old Testament theology. He was a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharasee, trained under Gamalial, and a zealot for the traditions of the Jewish fathers.Pauls' epistls are not the product of his pedegree, but ther product of Revelation of the Lord Himself. His epistles are the very revelation of Christ Himself and applicable to both Jews and gentiles because as He says, "In HIm there can be no jew, Greek, barbarian, slave or freeman, but only the One New Man.Paul did not preach a different gospel to the gentiles but the one gospel of Christ which is to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Graftedbranch

In your reference you are right as reguards Paul's defense against jews who were trying to discredit him. He came to a point where in his ministry he turned from the jews and went to the gentiles as to his ministry direction. His letters are addressed to gentile churches, which may have had some jewish converts in them but were primarily gentile. The early church reconized the apostle John and not Paul as the church theologian. Paul's letters to the churches would never have been accepted by the jews of the period and therefore he was an instructor or teacher of the gentiles. As such he taught by revelation or understanding that he had recieved from the Lord, it's interesting to note that no less than Peter had to reconize Paul and his teachings for some jewish christians believers to even consider what he wrote. Much of what Paul wrote was on christian ethics, since the gentile believer would have been at a disadvantage not have that foundation in the jewish OT, so he educated from the ground up, not laying again the foundation which most jewish people have from childhood upwards.

here is where i get confused, i see the church adhering to the teachings of paul with things such as women's place, works and faith, elders, morality, gifts of the Spirit, etc.. but would paul recognize the church if he walked in on a typical sunday? also, why are paul's teachings so confusing and complex to adults as compared to the teachings of Jesus? if the Body was living as Jesus taught it, would the church need the teachings of paul?peace out, jend"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth: there is nothing false about him." john 7:18I know, that in some ways, if the body was living as Jesus taught it, we would not need any bible. The early churches had no complete bible, and there are many churches throughout the persecuted world who would love to have a Bible but do not. However, that does not mean that the bible is not useful, and important. It is important as a backbone so that we can see ourselves clearly, and know that we are doing things the way God intended. The thessalonians, without any bible, became a very excellent church. The Corinthians, however, without any bible became a church full of sin and hypocrisy. If they had had a bible to compare themselves too, this might have been prevented. I do believe that the primary thing in the Christian life is communion with God. If everyone in the church is communing deeply with God, and loves Him, and is pure in their motives then that church does not need a bible. However, the bible is still a gift of God that we should cherish if we have it. As I said, there are many Christians out there who would love to have a full copy of the bible. The bible, i think, can be compared to teachers. Do we need teachers? John says we do not (1 john 2:27). We can have a good relationship with God and discern all truth without teachers. However, God does make it clear that teaching is a gift He has given, and we should therefore take advantage of it. To neglect His gift is an insult to Him. As far as your other question goes, I think Paul would very much recognize the church today, and would be very grieved by it (just as he was by the corinthian church). He would recognize the false Christianity that has crept in, that he fought so hard against in his own life. I think he would be extremely sorrowful at how widespread it is. The more I read the bible the more I see it as a unified whole. I see its unity and inspiration more and more and I see how each of the 66 books are necesary and are definitely part of Gods word. This does not come from scholarly research, but from seeing how precious each book is, and how beautifully God expresses Himself in different ways through each of the different authors.

If everyone in the church is communing deeply with God, and loves Him, and is pure in their motives then that church does not need a bible. I have to believe that what is actually ment here is that if we were in deep communion with God we would not need the Law. But the Bible is not the law. The Bible is the revealtion of Christ.In John 17 the Lord Jesus said, "Sanctify them in truth, thy Word is Truth"Hebrews says, "The Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword... able to devide soul and spirit".The Word is the means and vehichle God uses to sanctify us. It is that which the Spirit uses to communicate the Living Word to us and to reveal Christ to us. Apart from the Word we have no way. The Written Word is that which gives definition to the Living Word.As long as we view the Bible as a book of teachings and commands for morality, we will never enjoy it for what it is. It is a book of Life which reveals the Living Christ and communicates into us by the Spirit the very Christ whom it reveals."Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly.""The Spirit touched, thy Word recieved, thy Life in me is thus concieved".It is by the washing of the Water with the Word that we are sanctified.The more of Christ we have within us, the more we love and appreciate His Words. The more we love the Bible. The more the Bible is a living book to us. We never graduate from the Word of God but find it more and more a book of life for us to eat and feed on the Living Christ.Graftedbranch.

I have to believe that what is actually ment here is that if we were in deep communion with God we would not need the Law. But the Bible is not the law. The Bible is the revealtion of Christ.I do not mean the law. I mean the bible. I want to be careful here not to undervalue the bible, but the bible is not God, it is a gift from God to help in revealing Himself and His will to us. Jesus is the Word, and although He reveals Himself through the bible, this is not the only way to know Jesus. According to that line of reasoning, many of the early Christians could not and did not know Christ because they did not have a bible yet. This would also mean that many believers who are currently under persecution cannot know Christ, because they do not have a copy of the bible either. God is bigger than a book, and fully able to reveal Himself to one without the use of pages. Just as He revealed Himself to Paul in the Desert. As I said, I do not want to undervalue the bible. If you have the bible available to you and you do not take advantage of those precious pages, then you are insulting God. Also, in this day and age in this part of the world it is necesary for spiritual discernment for there are many false prophets in the world. However, we cannot lift up the bible as God or the only means to God. If you only know God through your bible, then you do not know God... for there are many who know their bible and do not know God. The more of Christ we have within us, the more we love and appreciate His Words. The more we love the Bible. The more the Bible is a living book to us. We never graduate from the Word of God but find it more and more a book of life for us to eat and feed on the Living Christ.I totally and completely agree! Amen! And I do not want to create contention, I just think it is important to point out that there are many who know their bibles backwards and forwards and are totally lost. This is because God is bigger than the bible, and you can only truly know Him through the Spirit. And you can only truly know Him in the Word by the Spirit. But you CANNOT know Him in the Spirit by the Word. And I think that is one major problem in Christianity today, too many have a form of godliness but not the power. The form is much knowledge, but the power of the Spirit and the blessed communion we have with God through the Spirit is missing.

1 John 2:24-27 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.True, the early Christians did not have the written Word. They did have the anointing as John calls it, which they heard from the beginning of what John and Paul were teaching. Paul calls it revelation, John call it anointing.They both come from the same place, The Holy Spirit.Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, This is where they began to read the Word which was give direct to Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ Himself.Ephesians 3:2-4 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Not only to the Romans but to the Ephesians and all that Paul spoke to, especially the Gentiles.Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, The afore writing is ROM 16:25 and all else he spoke to.Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, So whether it be by written Word or by the spoken Word it is revealed to us. The Holy Spirit is the One that gives us the anointing and the revelation of all that is Christ.Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.This is what we all will be judged by, according to Paul's Gospel which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ, the final Gospel: Phillip

Jesus is the Word, and although He reveals Himself through the bible, this is not the only way to know Jesus. According to that line of reasoning, many of the early Christians could not and did not know Christ because they did not have a bible yet. This would also mean that many believers who are currently under persecution cannot know Christ, because they do not have a copy of the bible either.Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles in the breaking of bread and prayers."Colossians 4:16: "And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodicians also, and that you also read the one from Laodicia."Rev. 1:10,11 I was in spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."Rev. 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches..."________________________________________________When the early church was born, there was no New Testament. There was the "apostles teaching" and if you read through the book of acts and read the sermons preached by the Apostles, they were full of references to the Old testament, the prophecies, the psalms, and the books of Moses.The Lord Jesus Himself quoted scripture and used it often as a base for what He was saying.As the New Testamant age progressed, the Lord through the Spirit in His apostles brought into being the gospels, Acts, and the epistles to the churches to contain the full revelation of God's New Testament economy.The Lord culminated this with the Book of Revelation which is the record of the consumate Visions of the Bible and the goal of God's economy, the New Jerusalem.The early churches had only the Spirit and Apostle's teaching in the beginning but when the New churches were established, the apostles spent much time, day and night teaching them and laboring among them.Eventually it became necessary to write the epistles to them and Paul directed the churches to circulate the letters among the other churches. The book of revelation says, 'To him who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches." Was this a direct speaking? No, It was through the words He gave John to write and send to the churches.John said, "You ahve no need that anyone should teach you but you have an anointing..." Yet He said this in his epistle which is full of teaching."The Holy Spirit is our teacher. And as we read the Word it is the Holy Spirit Himself who opens up this word and who makes the Word Living and applicable to us. Without the Spirit the Bible is just dead letters.But the Spirit without the Word is nebulas. That is He has no substantive material with which to work in our understanding, etc. The Spirit uses the Word which He breathed out to impart Life into us and enlighten us. It is thrugh the word of the gospel of Jesus Christ that we believe into Christ and are regenerated. The Spirit through the word imparts the Reality of Christ to us and creates faith within us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ.It is a false assumption to suggest Paul had no use for the scriptures but only opperated on direct revelation. On the contrary any reading of His epistles will show that He was steeped in the Scriptures and used the Shadows and types of the Old testament as well as the prophetes and psalms to communicate his "apostles teaching".As Paul says of the Jews, "to this day, at the reading of Moses, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil is removed and we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being tranformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit..."The veil is over the heart at the reading of Moses. The Old Testament is full of Christ. But they don't see Him in it. But when their heart turns to the Lord the veil is removed and thier eyes are opened to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.Sure, there are extenuating circomstances in which we don't have a bible, but those who have experiences such circomstances testify that they make a practice of reciting and praying through those verses they have memorized or have been told to them. And one evidence of being born again is a longing for the "pure milk of the Word".The bible is not God, but the Bible is God's revelation of Himself. It is the record of God's dealing with man and the basis on which He deals with man. It is the revelation of His economy, the History of His redemption, and the revelation of the outcome of all His works.The Bible and especially the New Testament is God's revelation breathed out from His very being in His chosen, redeemed, regenerated, transformed, and conformed apostles in order to bring all the saints in all the churches to the same place. That is redeemed, regenerated, transformed, and conformed saints. "Sanctify them in truth, Thy Word is truth" - John 17 - Jesus ChristGraftedbranch

If God's goal were merely to save people to take them to heaven then the Bible would not be so necessary. It would be enough just to hear the gospel and believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and be regenerated and recieve the Eternal Life.And this was the state of things in the beginning of the Church.But God's goal is not just saved individuals. His goal is the building up of the body of Christ as His expression on the earth. And the proceedure for this is the local churches. And the means to this end is the ministry of the Word which builds Christ into the saints and causes them to grow up in all things into Christ who is the head.For this reason there is a progression in the History of the New Testament. It begins with the reception of the Eternal Life in Christ but as time went on, the epistles were needed to perfect the saints in their faith and to deal with heresies and other things which were creeping in and replacing Christ.People can be saved with a minimum of truth. They can have life. But without the pure milk of the Word they cannot grow. Jesus Said, "My words are spirit and Life." and "He who eats Me shall live because of Me"Without the Word the Spirit has no fuel, no milk to feed with and no meat to nourish with. Paul told Timothy that we are nourished by the pure words of faith and to the corinthians to "long for the pure milk of the Word to grow thereby.God's goal is not many children who have His Life but full grown sons of God who are mature in the Divine Life, in whom the Word of Christ dwells richly, who have overcome the Evil One, and who are established and can "cut straight the Word of Truth."Apollos was one who was saved and was preaching accurately the things of Christ beinng aquainted only with the preaching of John the Baptist. But Pricilla and Aquilla took him aside and instructed him more accuratly.There is a need for that accurate, full, and complete revelation in the New Testament. Otherwise we may preach things good but not so good. We may have life but with no growth, no formation, no structure, and no consistancy. We need the Bible. We need it as food and drink. We need it for doctrine, for reproof, and instruction in rightousnes. God has given us His Word for this purpose. If we do not utilize it, God will not bypass it. "The Spirit rides best in His own chariot"Graftedbranch

Br GB wrote:For this reason there is a progression in the History of the New Testament. Have you noticed the progression you speak of contained in the Gospels? It begins with miracles, then feeding, death, resurrection, and then understanding. This same progression is also in the OT.In Christ Jeff

Don't we stand on the Whole Bible being Divinely Inspired ?Amen AnnieGraftedbranch

Have you noticed the progression you speak of contained in the Gospels?There is a progression of revelation in the whole Bible. From Genesis to Revelation.Genesis is the Seed of all the revelation to follow. And it's been said that every revelation in the Bible find's its beginnings in Genesis.A seed contains all the life of the plant. And the plant grows up into full blossom. This is the bible.Thats why I guess it is called, "Genesis' (beginnings).Graftedbranch

Br GB,Yes I agree that Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is a progression of the revelation of God. Yet, I was speaking more in terms of the progression of the revelation of the "Life" in all who live by faith. This progression is evident throughout Scripture. It is not only present in the Epistles of Paul. The Scriptures continually teach that those who live by faith are changed by that faith. And from what source does this faith spring? You wrote:The Holy Spirit is our teacher. And as we read the Word it is the Holy Spirit Himself who opens up this word and who makes the Word Living and applicable to us. Without the Spirit the Bible is just dead letters.In Psalm 119 we have the same methods of teaching and the same results of that teaching. Paul, like the writer of Psalm 119, share the same teacher. God does not change, therefore His revelation to man does not change. Listen to the heart of the one who wrote these words, are they not representative of the NT experience?Psa. 119:1 \tBlessed are the undefiled in the way,\tWho walk in the law of the LORD! 2 \tBlessed are those who keep His testimonies,\tWho seek Him with the whole heart! 3 \tThey also do no iniquity;\tThey walk in His ways. 4 \tYou have commanded us\tTo keep Your precepts diligently. 5 \tOh, that my ways were directed\tTo keep Your statutes! 6 \tThen I would not be ashamed,\tWhen I look into all Your commandments. 7 \tI will praise You with uprightness of heart,\tWhen I learn Your righteous judgments. 8 \tI will keep Your statutes;\tOh, do not forsake me utterly! 9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?\tBy taking heed according to Your word. 10 \tWith my whole heart I have sought You;\tOh, let me not wander from Your commandments! 11 \tYour word I have hidden in my heart,\tThat I might not sin against You. 12 \tBlessed are You, O LORD!\tTeach me Your statutes. Continue to read the rest of Psalm 119, find the means by which all are taught by God and thus born of God.In ChristJeff

Colossians 1:24-27 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:This is a special presentation of the mystery that was given Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If we look at the words to fulfill the word of God, Wow. Paul received not only the fulfillment of the word of God but the direct revelation of Christ in a man, a new life and new birth that is all that we are and will be in Christ Jesus our life and new nature by the Father. First fulfill: 4137. plerooSearch for G4137 in KJVSLplhrow pleroo play-ro'-ofrom 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.Then: The word: 3056. logosSearch for G3056 in KJVSLlogoV logos log'-osfrom 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.Paul is the embodiment of Christ in a man, we who believe are only fulfilled in Christ and this is the final Gospel that will be given to mankind and all that is necessary to become children of God, sons' and daughters' of The Living God our Father. We must accept what Paul says as coming direct from Jesus Christ to each one that believes. Ephesians 3:1-2 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:Eph 3:3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.Paul and Jesus Christ are one and Christ is coming forth in Paul as Himself. The work of Christ in a man. Again, which I have used many times before, which is so great a revelation that is seems unfathomable, but here it is right in Paul's letter and all his letters, as Christ in you the Hope of Glory: Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.No longer I, But Christ liveth in me: Phillip

Paul, like the writer of Psalm 119, share the same teacher. God does not change, therefore His revelation to man does not change. Listen to the heart of the one who wrote these words, are they not representative of the NT experience?Paul said the mystery which is 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory' is the mystery hidden from the ages but now has been revealed.The Old Testament Saints knew nothing in experience of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".They had the Holy Spirit who communed with them, who came upon them, who inspired them, who did wonderful things. But He was alway exteriour, Not exterior to their soul, but He did not indwelling their spirit as Life.To rob the New Testament of it's significance and uniqueness is to rob Christ of HIs accomplishment in incarnation, human living, suffering, death, and resurrection.In the Old Testament, God's dwelling place was the tabernacle and then the Temple. The Ark of the covenant was in the holy of holies and that was the Place of the Divine Presence.When the Lord came He HImself was the tabernacle. He was God's dwelling place among men. He, "Tabernacled among them (John 1). And He is also the reality of the Temple. He said, "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up. But this He spoke conserning His body".IN resurrection we are His enlarged body. As His body we are the enlargement of the Temple. As those who are regenerated and indwelt by Christ, we are "being built up into a holy Temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit" (Ephesians 2).In the New Testament, We are the temple. Jesus said, "A day is comming and now is that neither in Jerusalem or in this mountain shall you worship. But, the true worshipers shall worship in spirit and in reality." Here the Lord distinctly spoke of a change in the state of things. Whereas in the Old Testament, Jeruslam, the place of the Temple was the place of worship. The day has now come when our regenerated spirit is the place of worship.The Ark in the Tabernacle was made of acacia wood overlaid with Gold signifying Christ's humanity and His divinity. And in the Ark was the golden Pot signifying the Father. And In the Golden Pot was the Hidden manna which is Christ.This corrosponds to John 14. The Father is in the Son and the Son is is the Father. And today our regenerated human spirit is the holy of Holies. Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ. And Christ brings the Father into us. Today the ark is in our regenerated human spirit.There is a vast difference between God's Old Testament economy which is a type and shadow of the New Testament reality which is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".When Christ died on the Cross, the veil in the temple was rent, signifying that the way to the holy of holies was now open to all believers. Not just the levitial priests. And we today are the temple and our spirit is the Holy of Holies where the Presence of God dwells. And in Hebrews we are all told "to come forward into the holy of holies.""know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit who indwells you?"Nowhere in the Old Testament is the OT Saint spoken of as the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.Graftedbranch

Br GB wrote:Paul said the mystery which is 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory' is the mystery hidden from the ages but now has been revealed.Colosians 1 defines Paul's ministry, that appointed by God, to reveal the mystery to the Gentiles.To be precise, the Gentiles never knew of this mystery. The OT speaks of a time when the Gentiles would enter into the inheritance and be grafted in amongst the Branches. The spiritual precept of becoming one with Christ has occurred thoughout Scripture. This is the only means by which God's promise to be God to you and you to be one of His people could ever exist. All things are created through Christ. Genesis 17 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. This everlasting covenant is established in every generation. Nowhere in the Old Testament is the OT Saint spoken of as the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.How have you come to this conclusion?Could Joshua sit in the presence of God and not have what we have? Ex. 33:11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle. Who was David's Lord?Psa. 110:1 \tThe LORD said to my Lord,\t“Sit at My right hand,\tTill I make Your enemies Your footstool.” What does this Scripture speak of about the person that wrote it? What does he understand?Psa. 16:2 \tO my soul, you have said to the LORD,\t“You are my Lord,\tMy goodness is nothing apart from You.” 5 \tO LORD, You are the portion of my inheritance and my cup;\tYou maintain my lot. 6 \tThe lines have fallen to me in pleasant places;\tYes, I have a good inheritance. 7 \tI will bless the LORD who has given me counsel;\tMy heart also instructs me in the night seasons. 8 \tI have set the LORD always before me;\tBecause He is at my right hand I shall not be moved. 9 \tTherefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;\tMy flesh also will rest in hope. Remember that there exists a spiritual precept that those who live by faith become one with the Son and the Father. Faith cannot create anything else but oneness with God. We are often influenced by dispensational theology in ways it was never meant to be. To rob the OT saints of their inheritance in the work of Christ and the cross is the fruit of this dispensational theology.In ChristJeff

Ex. 33:11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.As I said. the Presence of God was in the Tabernacle and if a person wanted the be in the Presenece of God, he went to the Tabernacle. Moses went into the tabernacle to speak with God face to face. Joshuah was in the tabernacle and remained there. They entered in by the washing of the laver and the sacrafices and the offerings. And God was in the Holy of Holies. Where is this tabernacle in the New Testement? Where is the Shekinah Glory? Where is the Presence of God? He is not in the Burning Bush, He is not in the building. He is not in the 'temple made with hands" He is not hovering over us in a pillar of fire.He is within us as the Indwelling Life Giving Spirit who brings God into us and make us into His temple, His tabernacle, and His House. Today our spirit is the burning bush. Our body is the temple and we are the tabernacle. We are being built togehter into a holy temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit.As I said, no where in the Old testament was the OT Saint himself said to be the tabernacle, the temple or the dwelling place of God. But rather he went into the temple or the tabernacle where God dwelt.And when God's Presence went with them, they took the Ark of the covenant with them because that was the place of God's presence. Could Joshua sit in the presence of God and not have what we have?Joshua sat in the presence of God on the basis of the offerings. He had what we have in type and shadow. He had the signs of the realities we have as substance. And the Presence of God was in front of him, not within him.The Sacrafices were all types and shadows of Christ who is the "Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the World As the book of Hebrews so clearly shows us. Christ is the Reality of all the offerings.And the Tabernacle and temple were a type, a shadow, a picture of the reality of the body of Christ, the house of God and the Temple of God not made with hands.The Old Testament had the types and shadows and pictures and prophecies. The New Testament has the Reality, the fulfilment, and the substance.And this is so clearly spelled out in the New Testament that I am even surprised that it is questioned.To have the Presence of God manifested in the Shekina Glory in front of you is one thing. To have the Presence of God within you is quite another. One is external, the other internal, one is outward, the other inward.Graftedbranch

Br GB wrote:To have the Presence of God manifested in the Shekina Glory in front of you is one thing. To have the Presence of God within you is quite another. One is external, the other internal, one is outward, the other inward.This teaching of external verses internal seems a bit off doesn't it. Where does Paul teach this thought about external? Imagine what might happen to a believer who also saw His Shekina Glory. In ChristJeff

Br GB:In Psalm 73 we hear this:14 \tFor all day long I have been plagued,\tAnd chastened every morning. 15 \tIf I had said, “I will speak thus,”\tBehold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children. 16 \tWhen I thought how to understand this,\tIt was too painful for me— 17 \tUntil I went into the sanctuary of God;\tThen I understood their end. Was Asaph a member of "the generation of Your children"?When Asaph entered into the sanctuary of God what did he recieve? The types and shadows are real for those who enter into His rest. Faith does not create two different kinds of people. In ChristJeff

The types and shadows are real for those who enter into His rest. Faith does not create two different kinds of people. Ephesians 1:10 "Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and things on the earth, in Him..."Apparently you have your concept which you hold tightly. Which seems to be that there is nothing new in the New Testament. That there is no change in God's dealings and relationship with man through the comming of Christ, His death and resurrection. That there is no "economy of the fullness of the times".If our concept of God is outward. That is we see God as in heaven or in our environment, Or dwelling in a particular building or 'sanctuary" then our concept is very Old Testament. In the Old Testament God dwelt in the Temple and the Tabernacle. He appeard to Moses in a burning bush. And Moses stood face to face with God in the Tabernacle. If you wanted to worship God you went to Jerusalem where the Temple was. That was where you worshiped God.And Asaph went into the "sanctuary" and there recieved help with his problem.But today, where is the temple? Where is the burning bush? Where is the sanctuary?In all of church history, who has testified of God appearing to them outwardly in the Shekinah glory? This is impossible as God only revealed His glory in the Holy of Holies. And this glory was concealed behind the veil and only the priest could enter in and that not without the appropriate blood sacrifices.Yet in the New Testament the Shekinah Glory was revealed. That is on the mount of Tranfiguration the Glory of God shone forth from the Lord Jesus Christ who was the tabernacle of God and the temple of God. "And we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the Only begotton Son of God".And today through His death and resurrection He has produced the enlargement of this temple. That is His body which is the dwelling place of God in spirit.And today the Presence of God is not in a building, or a temple made with hands. Neither is it confined to the One Grain of wheat, Christ in the flesh who was among us. But the Presence of God is in the regenerated spirit of His redeemed regenerated believers. That is where God dwells and no where else on the earth. Augustine said, "I wasted many years seeking God outwardly instead of inwardly".And one day at our Lord's return this Glory will be manifested from within the Saints by His Spirit which indwells us and we will be tranfigured into His glorious image and will ourselves be the manifestation of the Glory of God.2 Thess. 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ".In the Old testament God's Presence was outward. In the New Testament His Presence is inward as the Spirit of Life. IN John 14 the Lord Jesus said, "but you know Him and He is with you and shall be in you.Brother, You need to see the glory of the Lord Jesus, His work and His accomplishment in bringing God into us and taking us into God. This is something new. And only through the Lord Jesus' incarnation, death and resurrection is God brought into humanity and humanity brought into God.Prior to our Lord's comming in incarnation, death and resurrection and ascension, there was no man in the Glory, There was no union with God and man. But in Christ's incarnation God was united with man and brought divinity into humanity.And in Christ's resurrection humanity was brought into divinity and glorified and now as those who are in Christ and partake of Him, we share in this.This was not the case in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of pictures, shadows and types of this. All the elements of the tabernacle show us these things. But they are a picture, not the reality. They were real. And God really did dwell in the Holy of Holies. But this is only a picture of God's ultimate purpose to make Man His dwelling place and man's regenerated spirit the Holy of Holies.We need the eyes of our heart to be enlightened that we may know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritence in the Saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies...Graftedbranch

One of the other people who replied to this topic quoted "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." and he also Quoted from peter as "commending" Paul but if you Look a little closer at that scripture Peter actually insinuates that the letters of Paul ARE scripture.2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,as they do also the OTHER scriptures, unto their own destruction." By saying the phrase "other scriptures" when the topic is Pauls epistles, Peter clearly indicates his belief that Paul's letters are scripture. which would make them pure and refined seven times as silver. And profitable for Doctrine reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness. Also who did Peter say wrested against PAul's letters? It was the unlearned, and unstable. He also said they did it to there own destruction. What are the "these things" that Peter mentions near the begining of Verse 16 of Chapter3 (2 Peter)back up and read from the begining of the chapter and see. HE is talking of the Last days....the return of Christ and how we should be living Holy lives. these men on this web sight are the ones warned of in the letters to Timothy the ones with "itching ears" who can not stand "sound doctrine". The scripture says and we believe the Holy spirit says through Paul "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual let him acknowledge that the words which we write are the commandments of the Lord". Isaiah the prophet confirms that the 66 book bible is the scripture in that his book modles the bible as a sign. ie there are 66 books in the bible...there are 66 chapters in the book of Isaiah the first 39 books of the bible cover the emergence, history, and sin of the nation of Israel. The first 39 chapters of the book of Isaiah cover the same topic the 40th book of the bible MAtthew intoduces John the baptist and the messiah the 40th chapter of the book of Isaiah predicts the apearance of John the baptist and the rest of the book is about the messiah.the 66th book of the bible is Revelation of Jesus Christ the 66th chapter of Isaiah shadows many of the things revealed in the book of Revelation.Anyone who reads the epistles who has a heart to know God will know that they are the word of God for Jesus said "My sheep know my voice and they will by no means follow any other voice." Pauls letters are not really complicated at all. They in essence say Repent for the remission of your sins and you will recieve the Holy Spirit. You will be a new Creature all things will become new. You will have a Spiritual rebirth (be born Again)Die to self by the power of the Holy Spirit and renew your mind by the daily washing of the word. OUr flesh is corrupt. we need the word of God to make us think right.PAuls letters challenge sin in your life bluntly but the half hearted and the double minded just want to play games with God and keep there sin and there lives. BUt Jesus said those who seek to save there lives will loose it and those who loose there lives will save them unto life eternal and that is the essence of the message from Paul count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of JEsus Christ our LOrd that you may KNOW HIM and the POWER OF HIS RESURECTION. all sin that is wraped around your and my heart is death. But by the spoken word of God the same word that spoke the Universe into existance is speaking life into you and me and setting us free from the wrong thoughts and desires of our corrupt hearts. For the Word of God is Quick (ALIVE) and POwerful, sharper than any two edged sword, and it Peirces (CUTS TO THE HEART) to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit bone and marrow and it (THE WORD OF GOD) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of your heart.(HEB 4:12)Put your Trust in the Word of God in all your way acknowledge him (he is the word of GOd according to John 1:1) and he will direct your paths. His path leads to resurection.

What are the "these things" that Peter mentions near the begining of Verse 16 of Chapter3 (2 Peter)back up and read from the begining of the chapter and see. HE is talking of the Last days....the return of Christ and how we should be living Holy lives. these men on this web sight are the ones warned of in the letters to Timothy the ones with "itching ears" who can not stand "sound doctrine". A small point missed by most is also that Peter says "as they do the rest of the scriptures..." meaning it is not confined to the matters of eschatology. It is not confined to matter's pertaining to the Lord's comming, but 'the rest of the scriptures also. Paul's words are twisted by these and they twist the rest of the scriptures to their own distruction. Graftedbranch

Quote:""This teaching of external verses internal seems a bit off doesn't it. Where does Paul teach this thought about external?"" Colossians 2:16-18 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Paul had said in Col 1 that it is a mystery that is now revealed in the saints, this revelation of Christ in a person was not possible in the Old Testament. Paul makes it clear, don't be beguiled and don't intrude into things that puff up, let no part of the Law inter your ability to be saved. This mystery is for Jews as well as Gentiles, because in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. What Paul said in Col 1:27 is the whole of the New Testament. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Old Testament Prophets did not have this mystery, or they would have been preaching that a living Christ would die and be resurrected and then He would come back from heaven and fill those that believe with the Seed of Christ and a whole new generation and race of people would be born again and They would be Christ Ones, which had never been revealed since the creation and before, and even to Gods, children of Israel, which are descendants of Israel himself. Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.The Christians at Antioch are DNA Children of God, by birth, "Christ in you", not created Law abiding children of their father the devil. We must see our position with God, Birthed Children of God by Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Not Law abiding created children of Israel. We must rightly divide the Word, Law and Grace, salvation by Grace through Faith, old testament and new testament, God Himself in each temple, Christ in you the Hope of Glory, not God in a temple that all must worship in by one human priest only able to approach The Father. But Christ in us and able to boldly come to The Father, each and every one, because of our sonship by the Christ In us. This is just a very small application of what the birthed Children of God have in Christ Jesus, which no other generation has ever had. No, None, until Christ is Born Again in the believer, which could not happen until Christ and His Cross and His Death, Resurrection, Ascension, and coming back in the Flesh of Believers. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.Is He Come? Not just was He on earth as God in flesh, but is He now in Flesh of believers and do we believe it.In Christ: Phillip, YES.

Brs GB and PhillipI hear what you are saying. I have heard many teach of the same things. I hear many teach that the day of Pentecost was the beginning of the "new man" or the "born-again child of God." I have also read of your thoughts about how Paul was given something more to reveal, a greater revelation. Yet I don't believe Paul teaches anything about Pentecost and the significance of that particular day. I could be wrong please correct me.When Paul teaches of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, why does he always go back to the covenant made with Abraham? When teaching about the differences between the two covenants he never speaks about a different covenant starting on the day of Pentecost. He always begins with Abraham. Again, I have not seen where Paul teaches about the Holy Spirit being external to man in the OT. I read your quote of Scripture Br Phillip and I see that Paul only speaks of the dispensation of grace given to Paul to reveal the mystery to the Gentiles. There always has been a remnant of God's children according to the grace of God in the OT. Look for the results of faith in those who believed, what nature do they inherit? What do they become? I seek not to limit the work of Christ to the NT, for He was foreordained before the foundations of the world to accomplish salvation for the household of God. Jesus prayed to His Father, restore the glory I had with You before I came. What did Christ do before His incarnation? What was the purpose of the Order of Melchizedec? There is much treasure, do not limit yourselves by dispensational theology. Christ is much greater than the teachings that have come from man in the attempt to categorize and explain the work of God in the OT and NT saints. God BlessJeff

Brothers Phillip and GB:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. James states that Elijah had the same nature as those who lived after Pentecost. What nature is he speaking of? This nature comes from faith does it not? In ChristJeff

Quote:""There is much treasure, do not limit yourselves by dispensational theology. Christ is much greater than the teachings that have come from man in the attempt to categorize and explain the work of God in the OT and NT saints.""1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;I do not limit myself by dispensationalism because I embrace the different ways of God dealing with His creation.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Have you ever considered in this Scripture the various "things" that were gathered together? The gentiles were added into the Holy kingdom.Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Please consider who Paul identifies as holy. Then notice who is added into amongst the holy branches. This is the mystery which the prophets spoke of long ago in the OT. Paul identifies these as the firstfruits of holiness. According to Scripture how does one take one holiness?In ChristJeff

Brs Phillip and GBIs this Scripture a depiction of a born-again believer?Job 3324 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;\tI have found a ransom’; 25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. What does it mean when God "restores to man His righteousness?" According to Scripture who is our righteousness?In ChristJeff

""Have you ever considered in this Scripture the various "things" that were gathered together? The gentiles were added into the Holy kingdom.""Acts 28:27-29 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. "reasoning"= disputations, non belief.To this day the Nation of Israel will not hear with their ears. Only the few that are the elect will hear and see and have the mystery of Christ in them revealed unto salvation.In Christ: Phillip

Quote:""What does it mean when God "restores to man His righteousness?" According to Scripture who is our righteousness?""Man has no righteousness, how can God restore what man does not have. Jobs righteousness is not in what he does but only in Christ who has not come yet.Job 33:31-33 Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I will speak. If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee. If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.Job had self righteousness and God was showing him there is only One that is Good and that is God. God was not saving Job by Christ in Him, God was showing Job that he was self righteous, and when Job understood God gave him all he had lost.Job 34:31-37 Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more: That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more. Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest. Let men of understanding tell Me, and let a wise man hearken unto Me. Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.This is the end of man until Christ be born and suffer and die, for the end of man is in himself. Only Christ in a man can bring salvation, nothing else. "Ye must be born again".Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Old Testament Saints will have This Christ as their King, When Christ rules from the Throne of David in His millennial reign. New Testament Saints already have Him not only as King of Kings, but much more our Lord and our Life, already living in us who believe and are born again of Incorruptable Seed, son's of God.In Christ: Phillip

Br Phillip wrote:Man has no righteousness, how can God restore what man does not have. Jobs righteousness is not in what he does but only in Christ who has not come yet.I don't believe you read the Scripture carefully enough. The Scripture I quoted states that God restore His righteousness to man. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. In ChristJeff

Br Phillip quoted:Acts 28:27-29 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.Not all of Israel fell under this condemnation. Please read what Paul teaches on this subject.Romans 11 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. These people who lived during Elijah's time were saved not by works but by grace. These saints share in the same inheritance through the Holy Spirit. In ChristJeff

“I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."Yes but they are elect of God just as we are elect of God, yet they still have not been born again or have Christ in them. These are part of the remnant that will be governed on this earth from the Throne of David by Jesus Christ their King whom Israel crucified, not the remnant and the remnant will be the Kingdom of God's dear Son, whom He will rule for 1000 years on this earth and we will rule with Him. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: This is the first resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.In Christ: Phillip Alive in Christ, if dead then dead in Christ but the criteria for this first resurrection is IN CHRIST. Born Again of Incorruptable Seed.

I don't believe you read the Scripture carefully enough. The Scripture I quoted states that God restore His righteousness to man. Amen and who is His Righteousness? Jesus Christ born again in the believers, that believe that Jesus Christ Is Come in Flesh. Again Has He come, yes in the flesh of Jesus Christ the man and also Yes in the flesh of every born again believer. 2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.In Christ: His person, Phillip

i joined and participated in this forum during two+ weeks of rest from the exhaustive work of inner city missions. my goal of joining was to find other who through persecution for HIS name's sake have yielded a righteous harvest.never spoke or read anything from other missionaries, specifically inner city and so i lost interest in coming back until during conversation someone in leadership training from a local "holiness" church stated "without paul, Jesus would just be another dead man hanging on a piece of wood...." insanity!while seeking first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness as fishers of men, we never had to go any further than the Gospels,Isaiah and Revelation to find what we truly needed-AMEN! our missions house has a constant flow of disciples studying the Gospels and being trained by the Holy Spirit to go forth in Jesus name. soon i too will be leaving to start anew in another state. this will happen after another disciple has been fully equipped to take my place.for the record, our work started as a scientific experiment. the test was to see if we gave everything away and lived as He taught in the book of matthew, would our lives reflect what He said they would? although we had hope, we had not faith. through theft, persecution, vandalism, character assault, etc... we recieved the Holy Spirit as our teacher and guide and found everything He said to expect and believe and recieve is true-Amen!without salaries titles or a 501c3 tax exempt #, we are on year three of feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, casting out demons and healing the sick. we expect to be able to raise the dead and cure leprosy when Our Father instructs us to do so but until then i am happy where i am at.we are still dying to ourselves daily, and while Jesus, is living, moving and speaking in and through us, we would never view our words to be equal to that which Jesus spoke on earth.regardless of Christ living in paul, there is no power in the name of paul yet there is POWER in the name of Jesus. there is no power in the blood of paul, but there is POWER in the Blood of Jesus. i believe you believe what you say, yet, no one has yet said the obvious:the teachings of Jesus Christ alone can bring salvation and allow a disciple to live a Holy life while the teachings of paul can teach some one to live a holy life, but cannot bring salvation. this alone makes the teachings of Christ to be superior to paul's. period. the average american church today is only a filthy remnant of the former glory of the church of acts. this is an indication of how far we have fallen from what Christ desires from us.my goal with this forum was to find others who know Christ the way we have found Him. while i will continue to listen to the sermons, this is my last posting and i will no longer be participating in the sermon index forum.in parting, i say, it is possible to live by the Gospels and still have the full blessings of the Lord! Amen!may the Love of Jesus Christ continue to bless us all richly and abundantly. peace out, jend

Br Phillip wrote:Yes but they are elect of God just as we are elect of God, yet they still have not been born again or have Christ in them. These are part of the remnant that will be governed on this earth from the Throne of David by Jesus Christ their King whom Israel crucified,Are you saying that those who died during the generation of Elijah will become flesh again and live on earth again as they did 3000 years ago? Are you saying that God will ressurect them in their corrupt flesh?In ChristJeff

Br. Phillip wrote:Amen and who is His Righteousness? Yes, and the book of Job teaches that God even back then gave His righteousness to those who believed. Again,25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,\tHe shall return to the days of his youth. 26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,\tHe shall see His face with joy,\tFor He restores to man His righteousness. 27 \tThen he looks at men and says,\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,\tAnd it did not profit me.’ 28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,\tAnd his life shall see the light. What nature of life do you see in these Scriptures above?In ChristJeff

Br Jend wrote:i believe you believe what you say, yet, no one has yet said the obvious:the teachings of Jesus Christ alone can bring salvation and allow a disciple to live a Holy life while the teachings of paul can teach some one to live a holy life, but cannot bring salvation. this alone makes the teachings of Christ to be superior to paul's. period. There are times brother when God uses you in ways you have not seen. The topic you have brought to this forum is not mistake. It is just an ongoing work of God. Christ is everything yet many do not see Christ at work in the total counsel of God. Everyone is called to teach and admonish in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. You have done so today. It sounds like God has much for you to do, please take time to give us some "spiritual songs," now and again. God BlessIn ChristJeff

There are 75 in Christ statements from Acts to Phm, all made by Paul. Even Christ did not use this statement, He pointed toward it by statements like "ye must be born again" and "I am the Vine you are the Branches, Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Even Peter did not mention the in Christ position of Paul, and being given this position "in Christ", direct to Paul by Christ Himself and this being our salvation, I think Paul's words are not his own but by direct revelation of the Son of God to Paul given for those that are in Christ as born again Children of God, by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father Himself birthed in the believer which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: I think these are pretty powerful words that point us to Christ and His position in the believer. In fact all scripture is given, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: The doctrine of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.Even Paul speaks surely and adamantly that it is Christ speaking in him. This makes Paul's words even as important as The Lord Jesus Christ since He waited 15 years after Pentecost to bring this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to the Church by the apostle Paul. Paul, the same as believers are one in Christ by the Spirit as Christ is One with the Father. We are all one in Christ Jesus our Lord. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. We are a new creature race of people, Christ Ones. 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.Paul also says it is no longer him that lives but Christ that lives in him as in us that believe because we are dead to sin in Christ Jesus. Even John says this. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His (Christ) seed remaineth in him: and He (Christ) cannot sin, because he is born of God. Sins of the flesh yes, but not before God the Father as we are in Christ Jesus who has no sin in Him.All this is from Paul and a little from John and Peter, and we should hear them as we Hear Him.In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Even Paul speaks surely and adamantly that it is Christ speaking in him.Peter speaks of this also when he teaches of this mystery.1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. Here Peter states that the "Spirit of Christ who was in them," was foretelling of the coming of Christ, His sufferings and the glories that were to come. Likewise we too still according to the prophets look for what manner Christ will come again, when will He come, what is the substance of His grace as He is manifest to the world a second time. What will be the glories of His second coming? We too search carefully to imagine what it will be. Yet, we who are indwelled with the Spirit of Christ look forward not knowing, only seeing dimly in a mirrow of what will someday take place. Paul teaches the doctrine," in Christ," to more clearly reveal what man can expect to see happen in his own life, that is, if he is obediently following the lead of the Spirit. To be "in Christ" means that we are being transformed from faith to faith in the likeness of Him. It is His work that is predestined. We who submit to Him become one with Him and the Father. The precept can be found throughout Scripture. Just like those who follow Satan become one with him. They too resemble their father. In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip,Paul taught about being "IN Christ."Listen to the words of Christ teach of the same precept.John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.This is the law of liberty that is lived, "In Christ." God BlessIn ChristJeff

To be "in Christ" is to be joined to Him in spirit. 1 Cor. 6:17 says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit."If we are believers, we are "in Christ" and also Christ is in us. To be "in Christ is a matter of our regeneration. We are baptised into Christ and also made to drink of the One Spirit. This is the organic union of the Spirit of Christ with our regenerated human spirit.To Abide in Christ is another thing. AS the Lord says in John 15, I am the True Vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me and I in you... He says we are the branches. That is, it is a fact. We are branches in the Vine if we are believers. We are in fact joined to the Lord and are one spirit with the Lord. But if we are to profit from this organic union, we must recognize it and abide in Him consciously. To abide in Christ is to make Him our abode, our dwelling place. And when we abide in Him, immediatly we are concious that He abides in us. We become a mutual abode or dwelling place.As we dwell in Him, He dwells in us and through this organic union and mutual abiding, we "bear much fruit.If we are believers we are 'in Christ and He is in us. But unless we abide in Him as our dwelling place we will not enjoy the reality of our union with him in spirit. We will not bear fruit. Only as we abide in Him consciously as our dwelling place does His indwelling us manifest itself and only thus do we bear genuine fruit.We must say say in faith, "Lord Jesus, thank you that I am joined to you and you are within me. Lord Jesus manifest yourself in me. I take your word that I am in you and you are in me. Lord, bear fruit in me and through me".As we live consciously in this reality we find the Lord Hismelf within us bearing fruit. Bearing fruint in prayer and in speaking of Christ, in our living, and in our ability to minister Christ to others.We need the revelation of the Spirit to see that we are indeed branches in the vine. That we are joined to Christ in our spirit and that He is in us and we are in Him. When we see this, we will begin to live in the reality of it and we will begin to bear fruit. We will pray prayers that reflect this reality, we will go forth in our daily living in this reality, we will speak to others in this reality and we will bear fruit because we will minister to others the Christ who is within us."In that day, (when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me and I am in you".Graftedbranch

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Were they son's? Could they be son's without Christ being born again in them? Christ was with them not in them. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.Are these son's? Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.This is the bridge that Christ Himself began to build from Israel accepting Him as King which they would not to the birth of Christ Himself born again in the believer. In Christ not just with Him.Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Christ is in us not with us.Has He come? Yes. Is He In us? Yes. They had Him with them, we have Him in us and we are in Him.We must see the difference, if not, no matter what Paul or anyone else says, our oneness in Christ will not be seen with eyes that are open and ears that hear. "Ye must be born again", was Nicodemus born again? No. Was Paul born again? Yes, at the time appointed by God and Christ was revealed In him, Paul was a new person, his life was now in Christ and Christ Life was now in him.That is the only reason Paul came onto the scene. Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.Was Peter born again at Pentecost? I believe he was and those that were added to the church daily, but they did not know it. They only knew that the Holy Spirit had appeared upon them. They did not remember the promise of Christ, that He would send the Comforter and He, Jesus Christ would not leave them as orphans but He would come to be in them also. This miracle of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, had not been revealed in them yet. That is why God chose Paul to bring the conclusion of the Gospel of Christ in the believer, that would fulfill the Word of God. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. This is truly the fulfillment of The Plan of God in the Mind of God Prepared for us before the foundation of the World.Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:In Christ: Phillip

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Is this not the water and the Spirit of Christ, that we must be born again into. Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water. Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.The Water of Life Eternal and the Spirit of Christ Himself born again in the believer, and the Life We now live we live by the Faith of the Son of God.Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the Faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me. We are dead to self, but alive into Christ. It was each one of us who died on that Cross with Christ and we are as dead to this world as He was, when His dead head fell on dead shoulders and every drop of blood was drained from His body the we might live with Him and in Him forever. This is the Faith we now live with, His Faith which will save the world and all those that believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God and also very God Himself. 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. How is our spirit, soul and body preserved until that day. Matthew 26:27-29 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Do this in remembrance Of Me. He will drink it new with us In our Fathers House. In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: They did not remember the promise of Christ, that He would send the Comforter and He, Jesus Christ would not leave them as orphans but He would come to be in them also. Is it possible that Christ would consider His disciples as "orphans." What I mean is that the word "orphans" is dependent upon the fact that they first must be children of God before Christ would call them orphans. What is your thought on this?In ChristJeff

Brother GB wrote:To abide in Christ is to make Him our abode, our dwelling place. And when we abide in Him, immediatly we are concious that He abides in us. We become a mutual abode or dwelling place.As we dwell in Him, He dwells in us and through this organic union and mutual abiding, we "bear much fruit.I do not question the fact that you have "The Life," in you. I hear your testimony and it is good. As we walk together with Christ we all grow in understanding due to the work of the Holy Spirit. As we recognize His voice, we also begin to see in our own life, the testimony of Christ in us. When Jesus taught about freedom that is found in Him He said these words:John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.In this Scripture Jesus Himself teaches about being "sons...forever." Are these words of Scripture any less than what was revealed to Paul? With the Holy Spirit work, would not a believer understand Jesus just as clearly as Paul?In ChristJeff

Jesus is our life, Jesus is the faith we now have, not the faith of Abraham which was only earthly reckoning of righteousness. Jesus is living faith exchanged for earthly faith because of His new life in us. This scripture explains it so completely. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This is a real prime text for the new life we have in Christ. I Christ, is the new life and He asks the Father that the Holy Spirit would come and not leave us in the dark, but teach us this truth. John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: Orphans, I will come to you, (adopted into the Family of God the Father.) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day (future, after ascension) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.Then also the Comforter Teacher: John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.This if He left and did not come we would be orphans. (outside of the family) In His coming we are life in Him and family of God in Him, sons'. "A little while" the world see's Him dead but we see Him alive and because of Him we are alive in Him, and we shall, "at that day", (here it comes the big one) "KNOW" that He and the Father are One and because of Him in us we are one with God, The Father, Him, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. This happened after The Cross after His Assention and His return to live His life in the Born Again believers. Now, to keep everything in proper order He said He would ask the Father to send A Comforter, Another Teacher, and He would reveal all truth about this transformation and regeneration of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ, although He is in perfect union with Him, He is not Him. Even the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus as a dove. It was not the Holy Spirit that hang on the Cross and it was not the Holy Spirit that is giving us new life, It is Christ and His accomplished work on the Cross that gives us New Life. Where did Adam die? In Spirit, not the flesh although all eventually all die in the flesh because sin Kills the Flesh. The spirit is what God was speaking of when He said you will surly die. You see Satan does not care about the flesh, what he wants is the soul, the mind, will and intellect of God's created beings. Where would Satan rule from? He rules in the Spirit world and if he has control of the spirit of man, he has control over the soul. Where did Satan attack Adam, the soul mind, "surly God knows you will be just like Him". The lie that separated all mankind from the Spirit of God to the spirit of Satan so he could control the soul. Where does a demon control from? The demon controls from the spirit and rules the soul, thus controlling the flesh. New birth takes care of this, Satan out Christ in. With new life, Now Who controls the spirit of a man? Yes even the Spirit of Jesus Christ birthed in us. The Holy Spirit is now the controller of the mind will and intellect, the soul. Jesus Christ is our life, just like Satan was our life, but after new birth in spirit Christ is now our life and the Holy Spirit is now our controller of all we know and all truth that we forever will be given, "He will be in you forever". Christ is our life, New Spirit, the Holy Spirit is our teacher, teaching the soul, which is becoming new by the renewing of out minds, by the truth of the Mind of Christ, which we already have at the birthing, revealed by the Holy Spirit teacher, thus we have the Mind of Christ and we are being renewed in our Mind to His Mind by the Holy Sprit Teacher. This is our salvation that we are working out with fear and trembling, Spirit, saved by the Life and Spirit of Christ, The Soul, being saved by the renewing of our minds in the soul by the Holy Spirit which controls the Flesh, and the Flesh will be saved on resurrection morning, Past, saved, being saved, Present, and Future will be saved and sin is taken care of at the Cross, past, present and future. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us]; In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:Jesus is our life, Jesus is the faith we now have, not the faith of Abraham which was only earthly reckoning of righteousness. Jesus is living faith exchanged for earthly faith because of His new life in us. This scripture explains it so completely.Jesus said:Matt. 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.Matt. 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”Here Jesus confirms that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in the kingdom of heaven and living. Paul wrote:Rom. 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us allDo you see that the covenant made with Abraham was not through the law. It was of faith {that} it might be according to grace...9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal. 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Do you see here that Paul first states that we are those who are of faith [are blessed with believing Abraham.] We share in the same blessing. Now look to what Paul states next."that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Do you see that Paul states the nature of the blessing of Abraham is also come upon the Gentiles? Paul states that the promise is that the Spirit is given through faith. Paul writes to Timothy9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. All grace before time began comes to man through Jesus Christ. Grace has never flowed from the Father through anyother means. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. What does the word "church" mean? In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip wrote:Jesus is our life, Jesus is the faith we now have, not the faith of Abraham which was only earthly reckoning of righteousness. Jesus is living faith exchanged for earthly faith because of His new life in us. This scripture explains it so completely.Jesus said:Matt. 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.Matt. 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”Here Jesus confirms that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in the kingdom of heaven and living. Paul wrote:Rom. 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us allDo you see that the covenant made with Abraham was not through the law. It was of faith {that} it might be according to grace...9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal. 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Do you see here that Paul first states that we are those who are of faith [are blessed with believing Abraham.] We share in the same blessing. Now look to what Paul states next."that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Do you see that Paul states the nature of the blessing of Abraham is also come upon the Gentiles? Paul states that the promise is that the Spirit is given through faith. Paul writes to Timothy9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. All grace before time began comes to man through Jesus Christ. Grace has never flowed from the Father through anyother means. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. What does the word "church" mean? In ChristJeff

In this Scripture Jesus Himself teaches about being "sons...forever." Are these words of Scripture any less than what was revealed to Paul? With the Holy Spirit work, would not a believer understand Jesus just as clearly as Paul?I believe the burden of Paul was that all believers would have the same revelation, the same knowlege, the same understanding, and the same experience of Christ that he had."That you may be made strong to apprehend with all the saints, what is the length, the breadth, the hight, and the depth and to know the knowlege surpassing love of Christ, that you might be filled up unto all the fulness of God".Graftedbranch

In this Scripture Jesus Himself teaches about being "sons...forever." Are these words of Scripture any less than what was revealed to Paul? With the Holy Spirit work, would not a believer understand Jesus just as clearly as Paul?It is God's way to gain persons, and through them to gain others.The Lord Jesus chose 12 and taught them and trained them for 3 1/2 years. Yet, He chose to "complete the Word of God" and give us the majority of the New Testament through another, the least of the least, the chief of sinners, "That in him He might demonstrate His mercy and grace," as 'one born out of time".Shall we question God and His choice and His arragnement saying, "it's not fair?".What God gives to one is for the whole body of Christ. What He gives to one is for all that all may see the same thing, know the Same Person and enter into the Same experience of this One.God chose to give us the full revealtion of His New Testament economy through Paul and in his epistles we have the fullest exposition, the fullest reveation of Christ as the mystery of God and the church as the mystery of Christ, and His economy to dispense Himself in Christ into His chosen people as their Life to make them sons of God to be His corporate expression. This revelation is common to all the New Testament writers, but the details and the full revelation and treatment is in Paul's epistles. Why should we question God's arangement? Why not just recieve and rejoice?Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:I believe the burden of Paul was that all believers would have the same revelation, the same knowlege, the same understanding, and the same experience of Christ that he had.You rightly stated Paul's hope when he continually prays for the believers that God would give understanding to all believers in the magnitude that Paul himself experienced with Christ. This was Paul's burden, to point people to Christ so that they too might understand the "increase" that only God provides. God BlessIn ChristJeff

Br GB wrote:The Lord Jesus chose 12 and taught them and trained them for 3 1/2 years. Yet, He chose to "complete the Word of God" and give us the majority of the New Testament through another, the least of the least, the chief of sinners, "That in him He might demonstrate His mercy and grace," as 'one born out of time".The purpose of the letters was to correct, exhort, and reveal what had already existed. With this work of Paul, the gentile who had no root in God's people, no understanding of the total of Holy Scripture, could enter into a relationship with Him through the Son. Thus the middle wall of seperation was removed. The wild branch was grafted into the Holy. Paul's letters are like the "Cliffe Notes" of a novel. He points to Christ, just like all other Scripture does. It is not my intention to diminish Paul's ministry, for it is through this ministry, that I being a heathen, was grafted into the Holy. God chose to give us the full revealtion of His New Testament economy through Paul and in his epistles we have the fullest exposition, the fullest reveation of Christ as the mystery of God and the church as the mystery of Christ, and His economy to dispense Himself in Christ into His chosen people as their Life to make them sons of God to be His corporate expression. This "economy" you speak of David understood. And those who dwelled on David's words, would they not too come to like understanding? God's word does not return to Him void. Psalm 23, The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want....Who was David's Shepherd?Psalm 51, Psa. 51:1 \tHave mercy upon me, O God,\tAccording to Your lovingkindness;\tAccording to the multitude of Your tender mercies,\tBlot out my transgressions. 2 \tWash me thoroughly from my iniquity,\tAnd cleanse me from my sin. Who is it that washed and cleansed David's of his iniquity?In Christ

Brother,Why do we have the New Testament at all. What is the point of the "Revealtion given to Paul" as He said, ":it was made known to me by revealtion".You seem to be bent on the concept that the New Testament is nothing new at all. We don't really even need it. All we need is the Psalms and the books of Moses.But God does not regard it thus. He saw fit to bring His Son into the World to redeem us, and to raise Him from the dead to regenerate us, and to call out from among us those through whom He would give the full revelation of His economy. Things which were "hidden from the ages but now have been revealed."But you are offended at this notion. You don't believe there is anything in the New Testament which is New. Why is this?I suggest you are setting aside God's work and God's purpose.Tell me in the Old Testament where is the Body of Christ revealed, expounded and explained clearly?The New Testamen is based in the Old testament. It is the Reality of the Types, It is the substance of the Shadows, It is the reality of the pictures, and it is the fullfillment of the prophecies.Why is this so difficult to acknowlege? If God has chosen to bring in the New covanent, why should we be offended and cling to the Old as though there is really nothing new in the New covenant?Graftedbranch

Why is it that in regard to the "New Covenant" It says, "IN that day I will write my laws into their minds' ect.It says, "IN that Day". If there is nothing new, then what is the meaning of "IN that day"?Graftedbranch

It says, "IN that Day". If there is nothing new, then what is the meaning of "IN that day"?Why did the Lord Jesus say, 'IN that day (when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you?What is the purpose of "that day". Why not now? What is this "interlude" between the Lord's comming in the flesh and the comming of the Spirit? Why is it written in John 7, "This He spake of the Spirit who was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified?if there is no difference between the Old and New Testament, why is their an interlude? Why was not the Spirit poured out while the Diciples were with Him. Why must they "wait"?Your theology is not the theology of the New Testament. There is a difference. There is a distinction. There was the "Promis of the Spirit". why must they wait till Christ be ascended for the Spirit to be poured out?Why did the Lord say, "It is expedient for me to go away. If I do not go away, the conforter will not come"Why must the Lord Jesus go to the Father? Why must the Lord be crucified and resurrected before he "breathed in them and said, "recieve the Holy Spirit?" What was the hang up? Why not breath on them before His crucifixion and resurrection?Your theology ignores all these thingsGraftedbranch

To separate the Faith of Christ in us and the faith imputed to Abraham, which also was to be imputed to those not of the circumcision we must ask, did Christ have to believe? Did Abraham have to believe? Christ did not have to believe to get faith, but Abraham did and it was counted to him as righteousness. It was not Christ in him that gave him righteousness but because of God's Grace and Mercy it was given to him, not in Christ but from without, for he could not receive Christ as his in his spirit as the believer does after the Cross. That is why Israel will rule from the earth by their King on David's throne for 1000 years, they are an earthly people until God regenerates them into the Heavenly Kingdom of His dear Son. We the believers after the Cross are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus, already regenerated and we are not of this earth we are just passing through and this earth is our school house to prepare us for the Heavenly House that Christ is preparing for us and will come again and draw us unto Himself and so we shall be with the Lord forever and He is going to present us the the Father as birthed son's and daughters of the Father. Then after the 1000 years He will put all things together which are in heaven, which is the Born Again Believers who are headed for the Fathers House in the catching away of the Born Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. and The old testament saints that will rule on this earth, Christ ruling with the son's of God in preparation of the Great White Throne Judgment of God and the last day new heaven and earth. Ephesians 1:9-14 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.There is a difference in The faith of Abraham and the Faith of Christ. We the Born Again have the Faith of Christ in us and this Faith puts us in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.Galatians 3:21-23 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.Before Faith Came, and now is revealed that the Faith of Christ be in us by the birthing. It takes the same believing faith to be saved and be Born Again but after the Birthing our faith becomes the Faith of Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. This "Faith of" only comes in the new testament. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Abraham's faith and our faith are the same unto salvation. "The the life we now live we live by the Faith of the Son of God." The faith to believe unto salvation and the Faith of Christ to go on to the deeper things of God. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Our faith toward God which Abraham had and we have making him the father of us all. The Faith of Jesus Christ in us leading us to perfection.Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.By the Faith of Jesus Christ, learning to be perfect in Him: Phillip

Brother GB wrote:Why do we have the New Testament at all. What is the point of the "Revealtion given to Paul" as He said, ":it was made known to me by revealtion".Every word in Scritpure has come from "The Word." You seem to be bent on the concept that the New Testament is nothing new at all. We don't really even need it. All we need is the Psalms and the books of Moses.The NT grows in depth as one discovers Christ in the OT. As one discovers this depth, one sees the grace of God working in all generations to save man by the means of growing Christ in the hearts of the believer. Man is saved by grace through faith. All grace is dispensed through the Son is it not?But God does not regard it thus. He saw fit to bring His Son into the World to redeem us, and to raise Him from the dead to regenerate us, and to call out from among us those through whom He would give the full revelation of His economy. Things which were "hidden from the ages but now have been revealed."God saw fit to give Job this economy you speak of.Job 19:25-27For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!Does this section of Scripture speak of the "economy."But you are offended at this notion. You don't believe there is anything in the New Testament which is New. Why is this?I am not offended in anyway. I labor to encourage and exhort others to go beyond the doctrines of man. Rely only on the Scriptures and the work of the Holy Spirit. You will find a treasure that was foreordained before the foundations of the world, that in Christ men of all generations, are saved. But I must also warn you, that as you believe the Scriptures, you will be called out, you will be seperated by the Scriptures. You will honor Christ more deeply than ever before. Yet men will hate you more. Tell me in the Old Testament where is the Body of Christ revealed, expounded and explained clearly?Read Isaiah 7:10-16How is this a sign for King Ahaz?Zechariah 3:6-10, What and who is the Branch? Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.Again what and who are the Branch? Why is this so difficult to acknowlege? If God has chosen to bring in the New covanent, why should we be offended and cling to the Old as though there is really nothing new in the New covenant?Why is it so difficult for me? To whom much has been given, much is required. If I do not contend for the faith, I loose what I have been given. The fear of God overwhelms my fear of men.Seek for the One who is the High Priest Melchizedek, then you will see what Abraham saw and rejoiced. God BlessIn ChristJeff

Brother GB wrote:Why is it that in regard to the "New Covenant" It says, "IN that day I will write my laws into their minds' ect.There are many days that this has come to pass in each generation has it not? The promise God gave to Abraham was for him and all the generations to come. Read Genesis 17. David said something to the effect of, "Today is the day of Salvation." Deuteronomy 6:5-6"You shall love the Lord your God with your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart."Is this a true statment? In ChristJeff

Br GB wrote:It says, "IN that Day". If there is nothing new, then what is the meaning of "IN that day"?Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them." The writer of Hebrews quote OT Scripture. He points to this day as being that day. This does not negate that fact that this OT Scripture applies to all generations does it? You will find that when God says to a generation, "I will be your God, and you will be My people" what can man say? In like manner, Peter identifes the day of Pentecost as being that which was spoken of by Joel. Yet has everything come to pass that Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21?The events in Scripture, the revelations continue to reveal the "mystery" that has always existed. To those whom He promises to be their God He also enables them to be His people by writing His laws upon their hearts. In ChristJeff

The events in Scripture, the revelations continue to reveal the "mystery" that has always existed. To those whom He promises to be their God He also enables them to be His people by writing His laws upon their hearts.Brother Jeff,Christ has always been our Redeemer and Saints in every age have always been saved through Christ on the basis of faith. And Paul in the New Testament goes to great lengths to demonstrate this in Galatians and Romans.From the time of Adam to Able and on, man has always been accepted by God on the basis of the blood sacrafices which were a picture of Christ's comming sacrafice and the hope from the Beginning was that the Serpant's head would be bruised by "the Seed of the Woman".But strickly speaking, until the fullness of times, Christ had not come into the world in human flesh, He had not passed through human living, crucifixion, and resurrection and had not ascended as a Man into the heavens. These are events in time.Until this took place there was not a Man in the glory, Christ was only Divine. He was not Man. He often came in the form of a man in the Old testament, but this was a Christophone, but He had not been incarnated into human flesh.In incarnation, something New took place. The Eternal God became flesh. God came into humanity and joined with Humanity in One Person, Jesus Christ who is both God and Man.And He redeemed us in this humanity, and he resurrected in this humanity, and ascended to glory in this humanity. And today God is different from what He was before. Today God is forever untited in Christ with humanity and through Christ His body. This is new. And it is the result of a process which took place in time. And we are living on this side of that process and enjoy the Spirit of Jesus Christ who is the Spirit not just of God but the Spirit of the glorified God/Man. Something that did not exist in the Old Testament. The Spirit of God is Eternal, but the Spirit of God with glorified humanity did not exist as such before Christ came.Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:Christ has always been our Redeemer and Saints in every age have always been saved through Christ on the basis of faith. And Paul in the New Testament goes to great lengths to demonstrate this in Galatians and RomansAmen. From the time of Adam to Able and on, man has always been accepted by God on the basis of the blood sacrafices which were a picture of Christ's comming sacrafice Psalm 51:Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; according to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin...In this Scripture is this cleansing David prays for, according to the law of Moses or the law of faith in Christ?In ChristJeff

In this Scripture is this cleansing David prays for, according to the law of Moses or the law of faith in Christ?It is based in the Levitical system which God instituted. It is based in the Old Testament system. It is based on the comming redemption which would be accomplished by Christ in the future.Hallaluah God has always provided for His people in Christ. And in the end, the New Jeruselem is not just made up of New Testament believers but the 12 tribes of Isreal are also named.IN the end the Old Testament Saints will be joint heirs of God with the New Testament beievers through Christ.But in Time, they did not enjoy the full realization of this which we enjoy. The Spirit of Jehovah worked upon them, communed with them, and filled them and did many things through them. They enjoyed genuine intimate fellowship with God.But they did not posses the organic union with Christ that we enjoy today. IN the comming age they will and even now those in Abraham's bossom I am sure enjoy Intimate fellowship with Christ in the same way we do. But in that day they did not. They were not organically united with Christ as the incarnated, crucified, resurrected God/Man. That was reserved for the Church which is the body of Christ which had no existance before Christ came, was crucified and resurrected.Graftedbranch

Brother GB wrote:It is based in the Levitical system which God instituted. It is based in the Old Testament system.The law of Moses required man to sacrifice the blood of bulls. This is not David's prayer. David asks God to cleanse him. Apostle John teaches:1 John 1:7-9But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The prayer of David is in accordance with John's teaching and not the Law of Moses. Would you agree that this is available to all who live by faith?In ChristJeff

The prayer of David is in accordance with John's teaching and not the Law of Moses. Would you agree that this is available to all who live by faith?I do not agree that there is no differnce between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I do not agree that there is nothing new in the New Testament. It is the New Testament because it is New. If it were not it would not be the "New testament".I do not agree that the Old testament Saints enjoyed the same thing we enjoy today. Christ had not come in the flesh, Christ had not lived a human Life. Christ had not died on the cross. Christ had not resurrected from the dead.The Spirit was not the Spirit of the glorified, crucified, resurrected Christ. The Spirit was not yet, because Christ was not yet glorified.Today we as the Church, the body of Christ enjoy The indwelling Spirit as the dwelling place of God, We are His body, His enlargement, We are the reality of the tabernacle, the Reality of the Temple which was the dwelling place of God int he Old Testament. Today we as the church, the body of Christ are the reality of these things which were pictures and shadows in the Old Testament.I do not agree with you. Sorry.Graftedbranch

Jeremiah 23:4-5 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.We the Body of Christ the Church and are the spiritual Israel and we have already been save by the Cross, Israel has not, but will on this physical earth with Christ the Branch physically ruling from David's Throne over them and Judah and Israel and they shall fear no more.Who is this Branch you ask? It is Christ Himself. Look at Who He is. The King. Where is He ruling? In the earth. Where is our King ruling? At the right Hand of God and on the Throne of our Hearts by His Spirit given us in the new birthing of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, This is certainly not the King of the millennial reign of of the righteous Branch unto David's Throne in the New Jerusalem on this earth and He will reign and prosper and execute judgment on this earth. This is what the Righteous Branch will accomplish on this earth for 1000 years and we will be God's birthed legitimate children doing His bidding from the Throne by Jesus Christ who is already our King.Then Israel will be saved. Jeremiah 23:6-8 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.We the Church, the Body of Christ have not been driven anywhere, for we are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places.Jeremiah is speaking of Israel and Judah, not the Body of Christ the Church.We can fight it all we want and try to put Israel and the Body of Christ the Church together, but Gods Word will always keep them separate until the end of the millennium is over then Christ will put all things in His Father's Hands. 1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. In Christ: Phillip

Brother GB wrote:I do not agree that there is no differnce between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I do not agree that there is nothing new in the New Testament. It is the New Testament because it is New. If it were not it would not be the "New testament".When speaking of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, Paul teaches about two covenants only. Not one, not three, but two. The covenant made on mount Sinai and the covenant made with Abraham. Thoughout Pauls writings he always teaches about the law of Moses versus the covenant made with Abraham. Have you ever condsidered this aspect of his teaching?Why didn't he teach from the day of Pentecost on? In ChristJeff

Brother Phillip quoted from Jeremiah 23that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, There is a spiritual precept that both Paul and Jesus teach of. This precept is defined adequately by these Scriptures.John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.AlsoRom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. These two sections of Scripture mean the same thing in spiritual terms. Likewise in Jeremiah, the "Branch" refers to a generation of those who have become one with Christ and the Father. They have been conformed into the image of His Son. These Branches have existed as the remnant and are part of the Holy. We gentiles, a wild branch have been grafted in amonsgt the Holy branches.Read about Paul's teaching in Romans 11. Holy Branches existed before the time of the gentiles.In ChristJeff

"Have you ever condsidered this aspect of his teaching?Why didn't he teach from the day of Pentecost on?"Have you ever consider that Paul's Gospel is completely different from the Gospel of Moses or the Gospel of Abraham or even the Gospel of Christ?What does Paul say his Gospel is? Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. Were any sealed before the Holy Spirit came that Jesus had promised and that the Father sent, to seal us into Christ, and the Holy Spirit being in us forever who had previously been with us and would come and go upon old testament saints and even Jesus Christ Himself to show us that The Holy Spirit was like a dove and would not force Himself upon anyone, but being baptized into the Holy Spirit we would have This Comforter Teacher leading us into Christ and His Life forever.That we might be in Christ and Christ in us, which no other people had ever had by their belief of what God Said About His Son. Oh sure the Old Testament new about the Messiah but they did not know He was a Son and would be born again in the believer. Which even the elite in the Sanhedrin did not know as with even head masters rulers, when Jesus was with them. Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Even Nicodemus did not understand, and I don't believe that he could unless it was revealed by the Holy Spirit unto him, this business of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. On Top of that could Nicodemus have been born again while Jesus was yet with him? No, Jesus would have to be crucified, die, resurrect, appear, and ascend and come back in the Spirit born again in the ones that believed. Realized at Pentecost by the Holy Spirit coming upon them as tongues of Fire and then would be baptized in them and we would be sealed by Him in Christ.2 Thessalonians 1:8-12 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified ((in his saints,)) and to be admired ((in all them)) that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) (Paul's Gospel) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our ((Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you,)) ((and ye in him,)) according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. The dispensation of Grace in Christ Jesus.Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;To fulfill the Word of God by which we will be judged according to Paul's Gospel. What have we done with this Christ that is in us which has been made known to us NOW.2 Timothy 1:10-14 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. Christ In us the HOPE of GLORY and kept by the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE.There is only type and shadow of this amazing miracle, in the Old Testament, but now in fact the greatest Miracle of All time in the New Testament. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Are you Perfect?In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote: Were any sealed before the Holy Spirit came that Jesus had promised and that the Father sent, to seal us into Christ, and the Holy Spirit being in us forever who had previously been with us and would come and go upon old testament saints2 Samuel 23:2 \t“The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,\tAnd His word was on my tongue. 3 \tThe God of Israel said,\tThe Rock of Israel spoke to me:\t“He who rules over men must be just,\tRuling in the fear of God. 4 \tAnd he shall be like the light of the morning when the sun rises,\tA morning without clouds,\tLike the tender grass springing out of the earth,\tBy clear shining after rain.’ 5 \t“Although my house is not so with God,\tYet He has made with me an everlasting covenant,\tOrdered in all things and secure.\tFor this is all my salvation and all my desire;\tWill He not make it increase? In this proclaimation David knows that he has received an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and secure. This covenant consists of salvation which he declares fills all his desire. And then David declares that this covenant will increase. Now according to the Scripture that MeAgain posted in 1 Corinthians 2 Paul teaches:1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:\t“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,\tNor have entered into the heart of man\tThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Is David a natural man or a spiritual man based on what he declares in 2 Samuel?How many believers today understand what David sings about? fThat we might be in Christ and Christ in us, which no other people had ever had by their belief of what God Said About His Son. Oh sure the Old Testament new about the Messiah but they did not know He was a Son and would be born again in the believer. I remember that you said one time something to the effect that It is the life of Christ grown in the believer that creates salvation in the believer. It was something like that, I am sorry if the words that I used is not reflective of your beliefs. With this in mind, what notion of salvation does David have? In ChristJeff

Hab. 2:4 \t“Behold the proud,\tHis soul is not upright in him;\tBut the just shall live by his faith. In Paul's teaching, he quotes from Habakkuk the means by which all enter into His rest. The Just shall live by faith. In Ephesians, he teaches that the we are saved by grace through faith. According to Scripture from what source does all grace come?In ChristJeff

2Sa 23:5Although my house ... - The sense of this clause (according to the the King James Version) will be that David comparing the actual state of his family and kingdom during the later years of trouble and disaster with the prophetic description of the prosperity of the righteous king, and seeing how far it falls short, comforts himself by the terms of God's covenant 2 Samuel 7:12-16 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. This is Christ and His Kingdom, I will be His Father, and he shall be my son. If He commit iniquity, Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. I will chasten Him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. and looks forward to Messiah's kingdom. The latter clause, "although he make it not to grow," must then mean that, although at the present time the glory of his house was not made to grow, yet all his salvation and all his desire was made sure in the covenant which would be fulfilled in due time.Sure David had salvation, and the Holy Spirit upon Him, and God speaking to Him. The big difference is David had to look forward to the Christ and His Kingdom on this earth, which will take place in the millennial Kingdom of Christ on David's Throne. This is not the Born Again's Kingdom, our Kingdom is in the Father's House. Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.Does Christ receive David unto Himself? No because he will be part of the ruling over on this earth of the servants of Christ telling all nations of the Kingdom of God on this earth for a thousand years. Then the end and all will be given to the Father by Christ. Finally all Israel will be saved.We the Born again are not servants we are son's in the Father's House our heavenly kingdom with Christ, Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,We are no longer servants but friends. Jhn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.But we are to be as servants to each other and as servants, as Christ is a servant of all. 2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; but still friends of Christ and fellow heirs of Christ to our Father. Not heirs of the Law but fellow Heirs in Christ.Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.David had to look forward to the Messiah ruling on this earth, that he might receive the final portion of his salvation from Christ, and he will by the blessed appearing of Christ on Davids Throne and being all the remenant of Israel that will be saved.In Christ: Phillip

The covenant made on mount Sinai and the covenant made with Abraham.The covenant of Abraham was the promise of the Spirit through faith. The New Covenent is the Abrahamic covenant come to pass. Abraham did not see it. "Gal. 3:16 But to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. He does not say, And to the seeds, as concering many, but as conceerning one: "And to your seed," who is Christ.The Covenant with Abraham was a promise. But that covenant was not ratified until the Lord Jesus died as He said, 'This is the New covenant in My Blood".In Galatians 3 we are shown that we had a promise through Abraham, and then a covenant ratified 450 years later, that is, the law which today we call, "the Old Covenant".And the covenant ratified in the law did not set aside the or annul the promise. And in fact, the levitical system was designed to show forth this promise fulfilled in Christ.But the promise was not ratified until Christ came and died. It was ratified in His Blood. And since Christ fulfilled all the terms of the Old covenant in Law, the New Covenant does away with the Old.The Abrahamic promise was not the Old covenant. The old covenant was in the law. And the law did not come into till 450 years after the promise. And the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise ratified and realized in Christ. The promise of the New Covenant preceeded the convenant of the law, but was not ratified till Christ came and died.Thus it is called the New Covenent because it superceeds the Old. to sum up:1. The convenet with Abraham was an unratified promise of the Spirit through faith.2. The law, 450 years later was ratified and is the Old Covenant.3. Christ fulfilled the terms of the Old Covenenat and ratified the covenant made with Abraham bringing in the New Covenant.4 Abraham had nothing to do with the Old Covenant. The Old covenant is not a mixture of law and grace or law and faith. The Old covenent was in law. The promise was of the Spirit through faith. And abraham was justified not on the basis of the comming covenent in law, but on the basis of the realization of the promies of the Spirit through faith.This is the clear understanding of Galatians chapter 3.Graftedbranch

David had to look forward to the Messiah ruling on this earth, that he might receive the final portion of his salvation from Christ, and he will by the blessed appearing of Christ on Davids Throne and being all the remenant of Israel that will be saved.Graftedbranch wrote: "The covenant of Abraham was the promise of the Spirit through faith. The New Covenant is the Abrahamic covenant come to pass. Abraham did not see it.Amen.It is just like a Christian looking forward to his heavenly home. I know it and I believe it but it has not happened yet. Just because I believe it does not make it so yet, but that is how I am to reckon it while I live here on this earth. It has already taken place in the heavenlies but the physical reality is not come to pass. Gods promise to Abraham cannot take place until the reality of it is at hand. That is what will happen then the twelve tribes sit again on this earth under the Kingship of David's Throne with Christ as King. The Christian does not have a King that makes them the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, even though Jesus Christ is King of King and Lord of all Lords. Who is Christ to the dispensation of Grace believers? He is The Son of God, He is Savior, He is Life, He is Lord, He is God, He is All in All. The Christian has Christ on the Throne already which is our heart in Spirit. Is Christ a ruling King on this earth now? Yes, He is, but He is King in the believer by right of the New Covenant in His Blood, not by the promise to Abraham, but by the promise of the Seed of Abraham which Is Jesus Christ of the Cross of God. Yes Jesus Christ is King, but much more He is God and has been birthed in the New Creation Believer, who are a Kingdom of Priests already under the Headship of Jesus Christ our oldest and First Born of the Family of Gods Glory. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:In Christ: Phillip

Jeff do you remember this, of which we had many, Thank you brother, I love you and praise God for you always. At least I learned not to argue or confront your intellect with Christ in you and let God work out our differences By His Holy Spirit Teacher, our Parakletos. I also see a new softness in you, ten years does make a difference.

By Christ in you 2006

Phillip

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Notice the dates?

Who's Seed is this incorruptible Seed? It is not the Holy Spirit. It is the Seed of the Word and Who is the Living Word? The Word is Christ and the Seed is Christ. It takes a Father to produce seed that will conceive. That is why Jesus said, "Pray in this way, Our Father." We are the Bride of Christ and the Seed of the Father is Christ, and the Seed of Christ has been birthed in each believer. This is not the Holy Spirit It is the Seed and the Holy Spirit made the delivery of the Father. Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

This is the Incorruptable Seed of Christ that is born again in the believer. To put this Seed in the believer the Holy Spirit has to do it, and when we conceive, Christ is born in each of us, this is the full blown, birthed, lived, died on the Cross, resurrected, ascended and returned in the children of God, Born Again of; John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. This is the birth of Christ in the believer by the Holy Spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

When seed is conceived the recipient does not know she became pregnant. Only when changes begin to surface is the pregnancy brought to a knowing. The same thing goes for a believer, The Spirit of Christ begins to come forth and we know that we have been born again and are pregnant with Christ and the Holy Spirit which is also given by the Father is now our Teacher of this Pregnancy of Christ begins to show. Christ said, "we don't know from whence it comes," it is like the wind, and no one knows until the visible effect of the wind moves the branches and begins to produce fruit. True, we have the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit both in us because we believed, but the filling comes only when we know, again KNOW and believe it is so. Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We are being changed from glory to glory, so also the Holy Spirit revelation of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

Be ye filled is what begins at birth.

Birthed in Christ: Phillip

By Rookie;

by rookie on 2006/2/17 10:58:06

Brother Phillip wrote:

Were any sealed before the Holy Spirit came that Jesus had promised and that the Father sent, to seal us into Christ, and the Holy Spirit being in us forever who had previously been with us and would come and go upon old testament saints

2 Samuel 23:

2 “The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
\tAnd His word was on my tongue.
3 The God of Israel said,
\tThe Rock of Israel spoke to me:
\t“He who rules over men must be just,
\tRuling in the fear of God.
4 And he shall be like the light of the morning when the sun rises,
\tA morning without clouds,
\tLike the tender grass springing out of the earth,
\tBy clear shining after rain.Â’
5 “Although my house is not so with God,
\tYet He has made with me an everlasting covenant,
\tOrdered in all things and secure.
\tFor this is all my salvation and all my desire;
\tWill He not make it increase?

In this proclaimation David knows that he has received an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and secure. This covenant consists of salvation which he declares fills all his desire. And then David declares that this covenant will increase.

Now according to the Scripture that MeAgain posted in 1 Corinthians 2 Paul teaches:

1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:
\t“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
\tNor have entered into the heart of man
\tThe things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which manÂ’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Is David a natural man or a spiritual man based on what he declares in 2 Samuel?

How many believers today understand what David sings about?

f

That we might be in Christ and Christ in us, which no other people had ever had by their belief of what God Said About His Son. Oh sure the Old Testament new about the Messiah but they did not know He was a Son and would be born again in the believer.

I remember that you said one time something to the effect that It is the life of Christ grown in the believer that creates salvation in the believer. It was something like that, I am sorry if the words that I used is not reflective of your beliefs. With this in mind, what notion of salvation does David have?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff I will always treasure all of our posts with each other, sometimes your Iron was very sharp and I had to make sure I was as sharp as your Iron and that God was leading us both into deeper truth about Himself.

Bless you my Brother, see you soon/

In Christ: Phillip