BILL GAITHER AND GAYS – A NEW LOW IN THE “JUDGE NOT” PHILOSOPHY

Thanks for posting this Krispy.No where in the Bible does it condone Homosexiality or any sin.We are not to accept this life style.When I played softball, we had some lesbians on the team.There came a time when I had to tell one of them that I couldn't condone this life style.Jesus died to save us from sin.We are to love the sinner, but hate the sin.God BlessNell

Once on the street I was talking to a guy. I asked him questions about if he had lied, stolen and the such. He said that he had never done it. I really didn't believe him, and still don't to be honest. I then asked him, "oh, so you are perfect?" He said, "No, I'm not." I then asked him, "what do you do that makes you not perfect?" The reply was somewhat shocking, but showed he knew he was in sin. His reply was, "I sleep with boys." I then confronted him with his sin and he began to say he was born that way. I began to reason with him and he finally admitted it was his choice. He then likened it to stealing. He said, "It's like stealing, if you want it you just take it." We both knew stealing is wong and using his analogy we both agreed homosexuality is sin. They are with-knowledge (con-science) of right and wrong.

I don't really know if he was refering to young boys or males.. He was acting 'childish' so he may have just said boys as in 'guys' or so I hope.

He replied: "I sure do and I wish the fundamentalist would find Jesus. They're going to have a lot to answer for, leaving out people that Jesus died for" (Marsha Stevens, New Years Eve 2002 with Bill Gaither," www.christiangays.com). Bill and Gloria Gaither then came over and told her that they, too, appreciate her ministry today. A photo at Stevens' web site shows her and her lesbian partner with Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry. In the last part of the concert later that night, Gaither invited the crowd to sing along to "For Those Tears I Died." He then said: "You know, the young woman who wrote that song is here with us tonight, and maybe you're like she was and you've heard about a God who would reject you for who you are or who might turn you away for something you've done or where you've come from. Well I want you to know that I don't know that God. The only God I know is the one in this song that she wrote. The one that says, 'I am right here for you.' The one who sent His son. The one who says, 'You are my child, I love you, come stand by my side.' So sing with me again!"Krispy, could you give me the exact reference/source of Bill saying this? I know a few Godly people (Godloving and Godfearing) who love his music. If this turns out to be true...well...then I know it is true. And it will break my heart to see how the true love and beauty of Christ and His powerful and purifying words are being degenerated and adapted to our modern day thinking and feelings. Idolatry is one of the biggest problems in Churches today: making Christ in our own image. The Christ, in full glory and beauty and tenderness and holiness...I do miss Him! May He reveal Himself more and more to us as individuals...and may we reflect Him to the Church.But...to come back to my point. I really desire to have the exact reference. That will give me the opportunity and foundation to talk with them about it.Thanks!Paul

This sickens me... :-o Not so much the thought of Gay and Lesbians, but the thought of "Godly" people of influence taking this stance.Father, forgive us for our wicked ways, from straying from your Truth.

Some of what he says IS right though:You know, the young woman who wrote that song is here with us tonight, and maybe you're like she was and you've heard about a God who would reject you for who you are or who might turn you away for something you've done or where you've come from. Well I want you to know that I don't know that God.You bet he dont!The only God I know is the one in this song that she wrote.You bet he does!this is just absoutely aweful what next christian satanists?matt

I like to know the evidence or some facts on this statement?? Someone called President Bush a mason with no proof.

I did a search on the web, and I am so sad to discover you are right, Krispy. So sad....so tragic...Now, I am just thinking out loud..I wonder what Shirley Dobson thinks about that? She co-authored a book with Gloria Gaither. Dr. Dobson has spoken out against the gay lifestyle for a long time....ginnyrose

ginnyrose,Where did you find the research??

I've had my picture taken with a lot of people I don't know very well at a truckers chapel. A picture by itself does not mean a thing. I really don't know if Bill Gaither condones homosexual lifestyle or not, but I doubt it. If this is a lie to try to ruin a Christian leader, it surely wouldn't be the first and it won't be the last. Just think, maybe the enemy will spread untruths about yourself someday.In Christ,GaryE

ginnyrose,Where did you find the research??Amen!Brothers and sisters...I want you to know that I deeply despise bashing other Christians without giving proper references or sources. It's not that I don't want to believe it...but I know satan is trying to demolish and get rid of the Church in every way. He's doing it by means of making homosexuality, no-need-to-marry etc. acceptable in the Church in the name of: God is love. However, I'm also very well aware that he likes to set up Christians against each other. There are many false accusations that ruin the testimony of godly men. There are many people who are all against the current spiritual state of the Church...but not because Christ is missing, but because they have a spirit of arrogance and rebellion. The Christian who's promoting homosexuality as alright and fine, has to repent. Period. He's defiling the beauty of Christ and how He has designed the sexuality and intimacy of a man and woman to be God-glorifying. However, the Christian who's speaking against the current state of the Church, against homosexuality and abortion...gets no free credit from me (and neither from God). What do I mean? Well, simply this: Speaking against something doesn't make you a sincere Christian, but a sincere Christian cannot but speak against the things that hurt the very heart of God. Makes sense?Well, to stick to my question: any references?In Him,Paul

We still dont have proof yet. We have a gay woman giving HER story. We need to confirm this with the Gaithers!!

I've had my picture taken with a lot of people I don't know very well at a truckers chapel. Gary E. makes a good point here. The Gaither photo appears to be a quick group shot at some Southern Gospel trade show or music festival somewhere...It's easy to imagine Bill Gaither and Mark Lowry were in their trade show shmoozing mode, shaking hands and telling everyone they saw that day, "I really appreciate your ministry blah blah." Also, I have heard Lowry joke about some aspects of fundamentalism as stuffy and religious in his comedy routine..., which makes it easy to imagine him quipping some off-the-cuff well-intentioned one-liner about being more loving to homosexuals. However, it does show one of the pitfalls that so called "public ministries" face...cameras are capturing and microphones are recording...be careful what you say and do in that 3 seconds...it will be on blog hard drives forever. Here is a revealing section from Marsha and Cindy's account with the Gaithers.While I stammered (I am SO dumb around famous people), Bill and Gloria Gaither came over and Bill said how much he loved my song, and appreciated my ministry today, too. Gloria thanked me for it. I was not sure Bill knew what he was saying, but we got pictures and it was time to go back out for the rest of the concert. Speaking of "public ministries", maybe part of the disappointment here is the way we exalt these entertainers. Not that entertaining is a bad thing, but perhaps we equate singing and dancing with relevant spiritual ministry far more then we should. I mean, is singing gospel songs on a cruise ship really a ministry? Should the Gaithers, and other recording stars even be held up as a standard for the church? I'm not saying it's impossible to think the tide is turning even within old-school evangelical circles but I think this "gay-ther" incident (sorry) is little more then a few shortsighted indiscriminate comments taken way out of context. Unless the Gaithers make a formal statement accepting homosexual ministry, I think this type of speculative discussion is harmful to all of us. Like Gary E. said...what if someone were to take something we said and extract more meaning from it then we meant? MC

I did not think it would become such a huge issue here where people would question my research...Now to get to the matter at hand: For one, I use another search engine....I used AltaVista. This is the default search engine my ISP uses..it used to be google but they changed it because of moral issues.Now this is what I did: I typed in Marsha Stevens Bill Gaither and I found more sources discussing this connection. Marsha Stevens is a lesbian..this info is everywhere on the web. She did appear with the Gaithers at their Homecoming had her pic taken with them which can be viewed at:www.balmministries.com/gallery.htm Here is another link: ishttp://www.averyfineline.com/archive/2004/2004_october_1.htm This links provides another link that my ISP blocks which I expect will give more info.Here is another one:http://www.av1611.org/crock/crockex3.htmlAnother one:http://mcj.bloghorn.com/80cIt seems very odd that a person - Bill Gaither - of such high repute would invite a person as well known as Marsha Stevens to participate in his 'Homecoming' recordings, unless he is in sympathy with her views. Unless of course, this music is entertainment. So are his recordings entertainment or is it a ministry? Which brings me to a question that bothers me greatly: using the gospel to entertain...There is nothing wrong with communicating the gospel with music....in the OT the temple worship utilized male and female singers plus instruments in their music. But how often does modern Christian music glorify the performers rather then Jesus Christ? I suppose this tension will exist as long as the world stands. But it does bother me...and by me purchasing this music only serves to encourage this mindset....Now you wonder what does that crazy woman listen to? There is a lot but this modern 'Christian' music performed by 'bedhoppers' is not among our collection of CDs. I should tell you this: every Christmas the First Methodist Church in a nearby town puts on a wonderful "Singing Christmas Tree' presentation. It is truly a work of art. I loved to attend to see this performance...until my Baptist friends told me how they welcome practicing homos, how they rarely use the name 'Jesus' in their worship service..."God" is useded a lot, but not 'Jesus'. We no longer attend. Somehow the entire thing is contaminated. By going it will reinfore in their minds the larger community supports their position on these moral issues, which realy are more sin issues then anything else.ginnyrose

How did this present "gospel" of remission without repentance spread so widely?Why are so many going to hell because they were LIED to by Christians?What kind of judgment will God have on those who think they are serving Him but are not? "He that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." -1 John 2:17Did Jesus ever preach remission without repentance? This is a challange that I have issued again and again, but no one has yet to show me where there is an exception.Why do so many Christians say they love the lost, but don't love them enough to tell them they will go to hell if they die in their sin?If some of you are confused how to witness in love but still preach the Biblical gospel, check out http://www.WayoftheMaster.comIt's not a "method." It's looking at what Jesus did to stir the conscience of proud sinners by using the Law.PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't preach remission without repentance!!! The only exception would be if someone beats you to the punch and tells you that they have to stop sinning - not to EARN salvation, but because they so desperately want God to transform their nature so that sin becomes as DISGUSTING to them as it is to God. In that case, you would only be echoing back to them what they know.The problem is so many desire sins forgiven but don't truly desire a new, godly nature that abhors sin.-Chris

Tacklebox is very correct -- this is grace without transformation by being Born again. There is no conscousness of sin in any of this as it seems that grace here is nothing more than lisence to continue in sin that grace may abound. Something Paul very much said -- "God forbid!"Ginnyrose,I understand your feelings on this one. The problem is that the Gathers have developed this personal of good and wholesome over many years and people can't seem to accept that they would do this because of this assumed image. But one thing they have always done is follow the pop church culture in faith and beliefs. It just proves my point that the kind of music you play does not matter -- yes, that includes rock and roll to country -- it is how straight your walk when your not on stage that matters.Blessings.

I did not think it would become such a huge issue here where people would question my research...For my part, I did not mean to dispute any research or facts...although I admit I am reluctant to draw the same conclusions from these things. Perhaps I am reluctant for no better reason then I am weary of all of the failings among "leaders". It seems you can't throw a dead cat these days without hitting a reputable leader whose name is being chewed on by the ravenous faithful. I personally have little emotional or otherwise investment in the Gaiters themselves. I personally regard Southern Gospel as the hee-hawiest kind of music there is. :-P (I hope no one from my church is reading this!!)I say that not to offend anyone, but to show that my concern for this issue is not because I am partial to the Gaithers. I am just wanting to consider alternative exaplantions for the incidental pieces of information presented here.However, I do feel that people concerned should write the bluntest and more clear-cut letters to the Gaither organization, to make sure they know how others perceive them. What would convince me is if they respond to such letters with affirmation of these perceptions.As a comment to Tackleboxe's important statements...I couldn't agree more with him on the preaching of the Gospel. I have come to realize that organizations like the Gaithers aren't preaching the gospel...they are a religous entertainment (religous intertwinement?) business who market southern-styled music product to the same demographic as bible-belt churches. (There the similarity between their business and church ends...)I'm not trying to insult them...just trying to liberate them from lofty expectations.Personally if I did once like their product...say for instance this was Michael W. Smith or Michael Card or someone like that... this kind of news could ruin the taste of their music for me. Yet, I wouldn't want to go out of my way to lay hands suddenly on their personal reputations without something more explicit from their own testimony. Just some thoughts,MC

Sir_Edward wrote: There is no conscousness of sin in any of this as it seems that grace here is nothing more than lisence to continue in sin that grace may abound. Something Paul very much said -- "God forbid!" AMEN!!!The Gaithers have never gained much respect with me. I myself am a musician, and understand that music is an important aspect in worship for many. There are many times where a hymn or song of prasie or thanksgiving can keep the mind focused on God, so I am not trying to invalidate the music ministry.Please understand that I don't hate Bill Gaither nor do I harbor any sinful feelings towards him. I simply wish the man would do a better job standing for Christ. I firmly believe that God will hold those in greater judment who have greater responsibility to uphold His message because they are in the public eye. This is why James warns that not many should seek positions of public ministry.Maybe it's just me, but everytime I've watched a Gaither special, it seems so show-boaty and carnal. It is not stylistic reasons or anything of that nature, either because I myself enjoy their music on a carnal level, but I simply don't see Christ being magnified. That's why I wasn't too shocked about the first post in this thread.-Chris

Perhaps, I should share with everyone here how I regarded Gaithers' music.Years ago, they issued "Alleluia, A Praise gathering for believers". It was wonderful. I learned most of those songs and some of them have become standard fare in our church. Fast forward to 11 years ago to 1995. Our 25 year old daughter, Regina, lay in bed, dying of glioblastoma. She was paralyzed from the waist down because of a tumor in her spinal column. Anyhow, to help her pass the time and being an inspiration at the same time, we played many of the Gaithers homecoming videos. She loved them and we did too. They ministered to us in our need for comfort....we knew, and she knew that in the absence of a miracle, she would die. There was a song on one of those videos that struck a chord with us "Looking for a City". We replayed that song many times and even now it makes me tear up. Anyhow, she requested this song to be sung at her funeral which was very well done by an octect consisting of four males and four females. And it spoke to many in the audience...if I recall you heard sniffling all over that room..and it was until that point the largest gathering of people in that churchhouse.Yes, I loved the old Gaither music....however, Ezekiel 18: 20-31 is just as applicable to the Gaithers as it is to everyone on this board. Here is Ezekiel 18: 20-32: "20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22: All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23: Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26: When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27: Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28: Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29: Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30: Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32: For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." And I have never read in the NT where this precept has been changed....we must be ever vigilant....ginnyrose

How did this present "gospel" of remission without repentance spread so widely?Why are so many going to hell because they were LIED to by Christians?I believe that this has been going on a lot longer than we realize. The evangelical church can only hide it for so long - behind the facades and well polished sense of righteouseness. I don't see the value in complaining about what the Gaithers are doing when we have been turning a blind eye to the simplistic gospel message for a very long time.Let us look a little closer to home. Diane

christianity; a hospital where only the well are allowed???? jimp

Well I sure don't condone homosexuality, but maybe just maybe they could be planting a seed here and God is doing some watering in there lives and I guess if this was happening and they were to turn from homosexuality, all the bad comments would be in vain. Personally God is still God he can do all things and I would rather see homosexuals hanging around Christians than other homosexuals because there chances of turning around will be a lot better in my opinion. Someone has to show them they are Loved for who they are "Children Of God" and not just physically loved by homosexuals, as long as they have breath there is hope, they were not born this way so there is hope, each one chose this lifestyle and many have repented and gave their life to the Lord and are now married with families.If there being exposed to Christians we are going to be put down for them being in our presence they have no hope.God BlessMr. Bill

I am just one, how many more are in the same boat? There are homosexuals that seek death because they can't stand themselves, the church needs to offer hope but all they can offer is condemnation.Your testimony is heart stirring. A few years ago I remember a dear sister in the Lord standing up in front of the congregation one Sunday and asking in faith to be delivered from lesbian desires. The tangible presence of the Lord filled that place...Her courageous obedience literally seemed to open spiritual windows and one could feel the wind of fresh conviction might fall on the people right there. Yet in the midst of the open sobbing and tears another force stepped in...human control. The leadership hadn't scheduled a cascade effect of repentence...they were clearly feeling awkward about losing control of the service. ..in the end they managed to "simmer" down the rising temperature of Godly sorrow and ended the meeting in time for the buffet lines at the local resturaunts.The reason I mention this is a possible answer to your question...why do Christians seem to single out homosexuality? Well I think the answer is it scares them out of their wits because churches are built upon clean cut public reputations and gays threaten that reputation...especially Christian's who admit this problem from the stage...You see an adulterer or a thief is more or less accepted as just a "normal" person who gave into lust or greed, but a homosexual is ...well a homosexual. This sin becomes the overarching identity... As a result,the infiltration of "gay" people into the inner perimeter admidst "normal" (sic) Christians confuses the ranks. (Note that I am speaking with irony here dear brother...)Whether it is the political, or social uproar over it, many of us evangelical Christians simply don't know what to do with gay and lesbian people. We need to grow in this area. (Edit: beyond simply decrying the sin. And obviously there are certain ministries who are demonstrating greater experience and maturity in this area...my comments are not meant to be universal.)There are homosexuals that seek death because they can't stand themselves, the church needs to offer hope but all they can offer is condemnation.Well I can not refute your testimony on this point. Yet brother to brother let me share these words about the Jesus you serve..."As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Return to your stronghold, O prisoners of hope; today I declare that I will restore to you double." If you feel like a prisoner, then be a prisoner of hope brother...inspite of adversity always remain in the Stronghold of Christ and He will gaurd over you...and (edit)finish the work He began in you. MC

Loveslave wrote:Mrbillpro said

each one chose this lifestyleOh my dear brother, you are very wrong and yet very right. I did not chose to be a homosexual this path was chosen for me by someone else.

jimp wrote:christianity; a hospital where only the well are allowed???? jimpWell, I guess I am not a Christian because I sure am not well of all my sins, is there a hospital for sins? :-?

dorcas wrote:I hope you are not aiming this level of moral choice at an abused nine year old? dorcas wrote:I hope you are not aiming this level of moral choice at an abused nine year old? Never knew he was 9 sorry! and I don't know if some moral responsibility is unattainable, only God know people's heart and mind, I sure don't but I do know that Deut. 1:39 speaks of the "little ones" and the "children" who "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil." Isaiah 7:16 speaks of a child coming to an age when he knows to "refuse the evil, and choose the good. Both of these texts speak of children coming to a time in their lives when they have a knowledge of the moral character of their actions and know there is evil which they ought to refuse and good which they ought to choose. Neither of these verses gives a certain age at which moral agency begins. This is because there is no fixed age at which children become accountable, since reason will develop earlier in one child than another according to his gifts and circumstances. But when a child's reason has developed to the point that he knows to "refuse the evil and choose the good," he becomes a moral agent and is accountable for his deeds.

Loveslave,I'm praying for you at this very moment that I write this.Your courage to admit some of things you have said is commendable.Be free dear brother, free from the past, from guilt, free from the sin and the horrible things that have happened to you, In Jesus Name.Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke their bands in sunder. Psalms 107:13,14

jimp wrote:christianity; a hospital where only the well are allowed???? jimpFrom reading and listening to the shrillness from so many who claim Christ one might come away with that impression jimp, I agree. No wonder by and large I cannot find Chritianity effectively winning homosexuals to Christ. What I do find is endless homosexual tirades from this end, clear to the ACLU types trying to shove it down our throats. I find both nearly as disturbing.Mostly, and sadly so much of it is just an aversion. The Church is now largely silent concerning heterosexual fornication,adultery, remarriage, divorce. No one wants to rock the boat, so let's scream at the homosexuals instead. tonys

Neilgin my precious brother there is no need to apologizeNeil did indeed need to apologize. It is this unnecessary sarcasm, cynicism and bombastic attitude that has you on your last remaining breath here.LS,God bless your courage and to be willing to suffer for His sake. Your experience, your words and your right understanding speak volumes. Could wish to God that we all might be in true prayer for you brother, I will commit to this.You are also correct in not being the only one that has come here with this matter. There are others who have had a whole range of sins and been brought out of the depravity of their now past life. There is another similar realm that might shock some to know of all the past details of things done while being caught up in the maze of drug addiction, pornography and just what that can lead to. I am speaking from experience. A large part of the problem has already been adequately addressed rightly in a mis-attempt to declassify depravity into segments or 'classes'. One disease plagues the hearts of men. Sin. Period.Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1Co 6:9-11Agree wholeheartedly with MC here and think a lot of these things suffer from far too much rhetoric when the issues are plain and known. They are difficult, extremely difficult and yet we know that we must still choose to die to all sin, whatever form it takes. What can be quite incredulous and maybe a similar marvel is the heart issues that get slighted when it was those that the Lord was always pressing and cutting straight to; Bitterness and lying, hypocrisy, duplicity, bearing false witness, pride...At the very same time the issue here with the Gaithers and from what can be gleaned of what was said at least of Lowery and his statement that he did indeed understand and this quote;While I stammered (I am SO dumb around famous people), Bill and Gloria Gaither came over and Bill said how much he loved my song, and appreciated my ministry today, too. Gloria thanked me for it. I was not sure Bill knew what he was saying, but we got pictures and it was time to go back out for the rest of the concert.There is really one issue there, that this idea is affronted that the opposite extreme is to be accepted where it cannot be. That everything needs to be turned upside down on it's head in these days and accepted. Most of us know what the matter is and how we ought to be dealing with it and believe that this is only going to get much worse in the days ahead in many different ways if the church doesn't return to the Truth and to it's foundations. There is a plethora of 'ministries' out there that are attempting to rewrite Christian History let alone what Christianity is, merging mans rationale and misunderstanding of who Jesus is, why He came and what He accomplished, not to mention the cost requirement of following Him.Would you believe there is actually a "Christians for Cannabis" 'ministry'? To say I didn't find a bit of a problem with this after the mighty battle of surrendering and still living with loved ones bound up in it, the drug that is...We all have items that we must die to. Things that we must suffer in and through. Misunderstandings and misconceptions even the why we are willing to do so is enough to confound the unconverted, sometimes even the converted. Some of our own choosing, carry overs that have been embedded deeply and can take just as long to root out. Surely the Lord in His choosing can dismiss them in instant and just as well His reasons for allowing others to continue to carry their own personal cross are for His reasons that we may never be privy to though they can often be revealed in developing character, namely His. Others, like this LS, yours, the things that happened ... I have no words for, I can only weep for...Yet for all that, what a testimony you are to the Lord regardless. Your willingness, your courage despite it all, to be counted worthy to suffer for His sake, dear brother there is no greater honor. His character shows through.Had shared this with another brother here and the sentiment as well as the action is exacting in how we might approach these things;Why . . . Become Slaves Once More?(not wholly in agreement with much of this ministry but it is all rather besides the point)Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

No wonder by and large I cannot find Chritianity effectively winning homosexuals to Christ. What I do find is endless homosexual tirades from this end, clear to the ACLU types trying to shove it down our throats. I find both nearly as disturbing. Mostly, and sadly so much of it is just an aversion. The Church is now largely silent concerning heterosexual fornication,adultery, remarriage, divorce. No one wants to rock the boat, so let's scream at the homosexuals instead. exactly......and I can never seem to get over this hypocrisy in the church. Again, I will post this writing for consideration/pondering. It wasn't the homosexuals who "opened the door" to all the sexual sin and family destruction we are now witnessing. Church sanctioned adultery is what opened the door wide..........and most of the church remains SILENT (don't want to ruffle any feathers, do we?) The problem is that the numbers of this form of adultery are growing at a rapid pace, destroying more and more families. Yell and scream as we may about the homosexual agenda, but there is no comparison concerning which one is destroying more families.http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/assay49.htmlIn the Lord Jesus Christ, Cindy

Yell and scream as we may about the homosexual agenda, but there is no comparison concerning which one is destroying more families.I am sorry to have to agree on this point. (I'm sometimes slow to see the forest for the trees...) In fact, I would suggest that increasing acceptance of homosexuality within society, as well as the church is only an inevitable extension of the tidal wave of sexual promiscuity flooding the chuch. I try to avoid broad brushstrokes, but in this case there seems to be a universal rise in the water level of impurity within the ranks of Christians. This impurity, ranging from familial abuse to rank moral laziness is causing people to wonder...why do "heteros" get to have their cake? A few years ago I might have said this was in isolated pockets...but lately it seems that many of the mighty spiritual oaks in my own circles are really rotted within and falling suddenly without warning. This "deforestation" of seemingly mature trees is showing me that many of us are not planted by the waters; we are not finding all our suffiency in God. We are deceiving others with pathological confessions of Christ...deep down inside we are still hungry for other gods.I am so sorry for how lustful we have become...and how dishonest we have remained about it. MC

brethrenwe are indeed a bunch of hypocrites who need to repent before a Holy God for our transgressions. We jump up and down about homosexuality and yet say nothing, not one word about the rampant adultery and fornication which goes on in the "church". we have logs in our eyes and yet try and take specks out of the eyes of others. the Lord has shown me that we yell and scream the loudest about sins that we are not guilty of. let's take this case in point, again the vast majority of people who have contributed to this thread probably are not homosexual save for a couple who have admitted so and are working with the Lord to repent. that being said i am willing to bet my milk and cookies that at least 90% of us have committed fornication and/or adultery (be it in the heart or in the body) and yet noone is jumping up and down about that. we have issues with porn addiction but we are largely silent about that.i confess to you all i am guilty of fornication and adultery, porn addiction in my own heart and have been convicted of it and repented of it. now keeping in mind that the vast majority of us have fornicated (i confess before you all i am one) how many of us will tackle this issue with the same ferver as that of homosexuality? people adultery and fornication are BY FAR more common sins in the church compared to homosexuality and yet noone says anything about it. and untill we get off our bottoms and confront these sins as led of God (coz i know the Lord pricks our hearts about this but we ignore it) families will continue to be destroyed and those who would repent of homosexuality will continue to think us hypocrites for not confronting adultery and fornication and indeed all other sins because they all lead to death and they all grieve God.Lord convict us of our hypocrisy and make us repent by whatever means necessary.AMEN.

Ironman,To redirect this thread back to original post - The person in question is NOT making any attempts to repent of her homosexuality, so although your post was convicting and well-said, it misses the entire point of the original post and initial reactions.That said, I encourage everyone to read Ironman's post careful and prayerfully b/c if the church would really listen to more of that kind of message, and repent, the problem of having openly-gay, non-repentant people calling themselves Christians would be met with a holy rebuke from a holy nation of royal priests! (1 Peter 2:9)-Chris

Discernment MinistriesPro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.Pro 16:27 An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.Pro 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Discernment MinistriesLuk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Discernment MinistriesJam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?Pro 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

bro Christi understand that and i thank you bro for getting me back to the point of the whole discussion which is an unrepentant heart.the Lord again let me rant and rave so that the issue of repentance can be shown to me again and to us all. i pray we heed the word of the Lord and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!let us be honest before GOd and ourselves. how many of us were unrepentant when we were convicted of our fornications and adulteries? how many of us were like the lady whose unrepentant heart is the topic of this discussion in our own unrepentance? i myself am indeed guilty of such so i confess to you my brothers and sisters. sister diane made a post on the thread about the how we are called to be ambassadors for Christ and the Gospel. She spoke of the need for our lives to be a testament to the forgiveness of God and His power to free us from sin. This is our primary weapon against sin, our lives as a testimony to being freed from it. this way noone can say "i'll repent when you do" or say anything at all because the evidence of salvation and freedom from sin is staring that person in the face and he or she can't argue with your/my testimony of freedom from sin. God used Ron Bailey (Philologos) to show me the very same thing a while back, our lives should be a testimony. people can argue with you till the cows come home about docrtine but noone can say ANYTHING about one's testimony to the Lord's power.brethren if we were to be honest before God about our own sins and let Him convict us or stop resisting the conviction we already feel over our sins and REPENT then those that would argue against doctrine would have to shut up or shape up. if we repented noone would have any excuse for remaining in sin because the testimony of a life changed by Christ is very powerful. if we would repent of our adulteries and fornications then those who are homosexuals or who practice beastiality or whatever other form of ungodly thing would not be able to say "well you repent of your fornication/adultery first" in our own repentance before a Holy God and transformation is the true power of the Spirit of the Lord in convicting sinners. i pray we don't get so focused on sin out there that we neglect it in our own hearts and lives coz if we let that sin fester, we will indeed be consumed by it by becoming sensitized to it.

Discernment MinistriesPro 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. Pro 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife. Pro 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Pro 26:23 Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross. Pro 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him; Pro 26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart. Pro 26:26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be showed before the whole congregation.

Loveslave, I believe God has brought you here to this site. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your openness, and your honest confession. You do not defend or excuse yourself in any way. You also share some of your history, knowing that not everyone will be able accept it. God has given you freedom from the fear of man's rejection. In that sense you are a good example for me.Please persevere with God's strength in your life ministry - to share what God has done and is doing in your life. We need you to help us understand homosexuality, and we also to see a real person with the "label". Ever since I started here last May, the topic of homosexuality has remained almost constantly on the surface - a symtom of the churches obsession with it. Compton shared a few possible reasons, but I think that there are deeper reasons. It is very possible that many who are bothered most by homosexuals are struggling with similar bondages - unconfessed sin bondages, addictions, workaholism, religious addiction, or addiction to self-righteousness, etc. They share the same hidden pain and struggles:shame anger resentments lack of victory self-loathingfeeling unlovableunforgivensspast abusesfear of man woundednesslonelinessisololation condemnationfeelings of hopelessness etc. There is nothing I would like more than to see this forum be a healing ministry to homosexuals - where they could feel safe disclosing the fears and pain that have been keeping them in a horrible pit, and also where they could be shown the path to Christ's mercy and forgiveness (expressed through loving Christians) I believe that before they will feel that they can trust us, we have to understand homosexuality. Or maybe, we just have to understand ourselves, our own struggles with sin. Otherwise we will be just like the Pharisees - bashing the Bible on people's heads and saying, "You did it. It's wrong. Now you stop it!" Bill Gaither et al have nothing to do with me. I don't have a relationship with them, so I can do nothing to change anything there. However, instead, I determine to use this discussion as a platform on which to facilitate revival to the best I can. Lou Sutera, a revival leader, preached a sermon called, Revival is God's finger Pointing at Me. I ask, is REVIVAL not the core purpose of this entire forum?????????? My dear fellow posters, we will never get there while our focus is on the perceived wrongs of others. Diane

Committing Homosexual acts is a sin. There is no getting around that unless you twist scripture around. Having said that, I don't think the church (the universal church)should treat it any differently from other sins. Now, the modern church doesn't tend to address sin as it should. I am not talking about a witch hunt here. Proper church discipline is done with much prayer, love, and sorrow at having to admonish a brother or sister. (See matthew 18 for church discipline precidents.) I also don't think homosexuals want us to pity them. There is a balance. We don't need to be condescending to them by going overboard with apologies for abuses from bigots unless you are yourself a bigot. If you are, by all means apologize. We don't need to act as though it's o.k. with God for someone to commit any sin. All sin requires repentance. To address the other extreme, we don't need to be cruel or insensitive to homosexuals. We certainly shouldn't shun those who have repented of their sin. I do think that it is productive for Christians to prayerfully examine the modern church and how it portrays Christ to the world and hold it accountable. If we love our brethren we will hold one another accountable. If you see me in sin I beg you to approach me in a Biblical way and show me the right path of God. I will do the same for all of my brethren as God has instructed me to. Personally, I am a lying, thieving, murderous, blaspheming, adulter at heart who has broken all 10 of the commandments many times. I have repented, and continue to pray every day to be crucified with Christ. Praise the Lord for His attoning sacrifice. If you love homosexuals get busy sharing the true Gospel with them.(as we should with everyone) You don't even have to mention homosexuality with them. They, like all of us have transgressed many commandments of God and are in need of the Savior. I would also like to address the issue of guilt as I think it is crucial to this thread. The world has convinced us that guilt is a bad thing. That is a lie from Satan that needs to be sent back to Hell where it came from. Guilt is a gift from God. It is your conscience being stirred. We are not doing anyone a favor when we try to ease their feelings of guilt. It is hard to see someone hurting, but it is better to let the Lord work on them so they can get things right with Him. Lest I be misunderstood, I do believe that a homosexual can be born again and still have homosexual thoughts/feelings. It is important to note that any time a Christian finds Him/herself habitually sinning it is time to examine themselves and make sure they had a genuine repentance and rebirth. My advice to them would be to pray every day that God will remove any desires that are not of Him. We (Christians) all need to have a single-minded drive to be completely conformed to Christ's image.

bro LoveslaveThe only reason i can feel as i do about sin and our response or lack thereof to it is because the Lord has gotten in my grill about it. He's made it plain that before Him and the host of heaven i'm naked, wretched and thus deserving of hell. but in His own grace and mercy He has made it so i'm free in Him and He reminds me that it was because of His mercy lest i think more of myself than i am. bro you came out and confessed your sin before us all and it is evident that the Lord is at work in you that your life may be a testament to His power and mercy for all else in this bondage. The Lord has moved in me and is moving yet and so i'm not ashamed to testify to the Lord's mercy on my wretched soul. Praise the Lord He is more patient with us than we are with ourselves and eachother sometimes. Lord conform us to yourself, destroy our flesh that you may live in us.AMEN.

but Ironman has the answer. Thanks for sharing. We need more of this type of opening up. We hide behind handles and html's, this is really good and encouraging. God is working!Like I said in another thread or it could have been this one "we all need a bigger mirror" :-?

Pottershands, I apprciate your concern about the lassitude in our churches regarding sins. I would like to stretch out your comments a bit with a few more thoughts. Now, the modern church doesn't tend to address sin as it should. So true!! Perhaps you could change the word “sin” to “the sinner”. I think there is a tendency to see the sin in big red letters and see the sinner in small grey letters. Or we see only a few sins, but miss a whole lot other sins. We certainly shouldn't shun those who have repented of their sin. Yes, we need to support and encourage the penitent, or they may become drawn away again by strong life patterns of their past. But what about those who have not yet changed, or those who keep stumbling? Would shunning them help them? Was Jesus “condoning” the sin of sinners when he ate with them? I do think that it is productive for Christians to prayerfully examine the modern church and how it portrays Christ to the world and hold it accountable. I agree that we need to examine our ways because we are not doing a very good job. However, I ask, is one of the roles of the Church to hold the WORLD accountable? Back a few years ago when God was convicting me of my many, many sins (all hidden behind my hypocritical mask) I felt a burning passion to share my testimony, and also to hold my church accountable for those very same sins. My attempts backfired miserably. I was seen as a trouble-maker, divisive, and disrespectful of authority, etc. I have learned since then that I cannot change the church, or anyone. People need to know that I love and respect them, not merely view them as a project. I am trying to learn not to play God, but don’t always succeed. If you love homosexuals get busy sharing the true Gospel with them. This can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. History has proven that many who have “shared the Gospel” have done more damage than good. Your choice of the word “busy” makes me a bit nervous. I’ve been there – a zealous evangelical. God put the brakes on me so that I could learn to REST in him, and in that REST allow his light to shine through me. We are not doing anyone a favor when we try to ease their feelings of guilt. I agree. To absolve anyone apart from the cross only perpetuates denial, and brings no victory. However, I think we need to distinguish between true conviction of sin through the Holy Spirit, and a sense of hopeless condemnation, shame, and guilt which is often fostered by unmerciful Christians. The Devil would like to see people hopelessly defeated and bound in shame and guilt. True Holy Spirit conviction leads to true victory. And he does that in HIS TIME, not ours. I remember a mother who said, “You have to shame the kids into obedience” (ie, lay guit trips) It is not surprising that her now grown kids are all struggling with issues of shame – seen in such sins as divorce, alcohol, etc. My advice to them would be to pray every day that God will remove any desires that are not of Him. Now, that is what I want! If only God would remove all my desire for sweets, all my cravings for approval, and my desire for the securities in this world! For some reason, he does not always answer this prayer, perhaps because the removal of all ungodly desires is not the path to God. It could be the path to self-reliance. God is far more interested that we learn to trust him and REST in his love, mercy, and forgiveness, even while we are still struggling with symptoms of our old nature. I know an alcoholic whom God freed from any desire to drink. This man felt he was cured of alcoholism, and didn’t need AA. Sadly, he was still blind to deeper sins which played havoc in the relationships in the church. We all had to be very patient with him, and pray for God to continue the work in his heart. I think we can transfer that reality to other manifestations of sin – like homosexuality.

All Scripture is God-breathed. Of course it is easier to do away with a literal interpretation of God's word. If you don't speak out about homosexuality you won't be persecuted for your stand. If you accept unbiblical doctrines that other churches proclaim and welcome those apostate churches with open arms, you won't be persecuted. But if you stand on God's word and reject those who deny it and thereby deny Christ, you will be persecuted.

sis Dorcashey i thought you said you had A question!!! :-pSome of us have already bared our souls to the watching world.... some of us more discreetly than others....so.... How many times do you think a person should post about their past in one of these here threads? What would be your most spiritual advice to someone like me, who doesn't want to post about it all again - who is not trying to be a hypocrite by letting my past sins be left in my past and by not spelling them out to the ever increasing membership here?it's good that there are some of us who have bared our souls to the world as you said, and been honest about what we've been guilty of to testify to the Lord's mercy and grace. i felt led of God to confess of my past transgressions so i did. the point was to make plain the need for openness and honesty with God and with eachother about sin. this so that we don't gloss over things that need God to deal with them in our lives and then focus on things out there. i would say that is you feel the burden of the Lord to share your past on these threads or beyond so as to testify to His goodness and mercy then by all means do so. so this answers your questions i hope. we should allow the Lord to show us as we are, repent and rencounce what we are guilty of and as He leads spell those things out to people to testify to His glory.i feel a tremendous burden for this whole issue of how we deal harshly with sin elsewhere except for in our own lives. it's easy to go off on homosexuals but when on has been a fornicator or prideful, it's not so easy to jump all over those people is it :-( especially if one has not repented... :-(

Ravenhill said: "Sins done in private should be confessed private" He went on to say he listend to a girl openly confessed to a church ALL her sins.Ravenhill said every time I see that girl thats all I see is her awful sins."Confess your faults ONE to ANOTHER"

KrispyKrittr,Thanks for your original post. I firmly believe in exposing someone who shouldnt be a leader. Someone who stands for sin.

Roadsign,Perhaps you could change the word “sin” to “the sinner”. no thanks. I meant, "sin".I agree that we need to examine our ways because we are not doing a very good job. However, I ask, is one of the roles of the Church to hold the WORLD accountable? I was referring to holding the universal church and Christians accountable. That's Biblical. I don't expect the world to act as though they have been reborn when they haven't. Our job as Christians is to share the Gospel with them and allow the Holy Spirit to hold them accountable.Yes, we need to support and encourage the penitent, or they may become drawn away again by strong life patterns of their past. But what about those who have not yet changed, or those who keep stumbling? Would shunning them help them? Was Jesus “condoning” the sin of sinners when he ate with them? I am not saying we should avoid sinners. How would we share the Gospel with them if we were never in their presence? Just because I said we shouldn't shun repentant homosexuals doesn't mean I am emplying we should shun unrepentant ones. The point, as pointed out by Ironman, is that the Gaithers shouldn't approve of an actively practicing, unrepentant, open homosexual saying that her lifestyle is O.K. with God. We can skirt the issue, but it won't change what is going on here. When we pick and choose scripture, twisting it around to make it fit our agenda we are guilty of heresy. When we go around assigning characteristics and opinions to God that aren't in His nature, we are guilty of idolatry. It's plain and simple.History has proven that many who have “shared the Gospel” have done more damage than good. Your choice of the word “busy” makes me a bit nervous. I’ve been there – a zealous evangelical. God put the brakes on me so that I could learn to REST in him, and in that REST allow his light to shine through me.But how can they call to him for help if they have not believed? And how can they believe if they have not heard the message? And how can they hear if the message is not proclaimed? [Rom 10:14 GNB]Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. And I will be with you always, to the end of the age." [Mat 28:19-20 GNB]Can you argue with that? The only time the word, "busy" has made me nervous is when I was guilty of laziness.True Holy Spirit conviction leads to true victory. And he does that in HIS TIME, not ours. I agree with you on that. We can never make someone repent or feel conviction. We can be used by God as a mouthpiece, though. Your arguement doesn't negate, "Rebuke publicly all those who commit sins, so that the rest may be afraid. [1Ti 5:20 GNB]". I am not talking about going overboard by talking to someone in a hateful way. When someone loves us they share the truth with us, even if it is hurtful news. I rebuke and punish all whom I love. Be in earnest, then, and turn from your sins. [Rev 3:19 GNB] If only God would remove all my desire for sweets, all my cravings for approval, and my desire for the securities in this world! For some reason, he does not always answer this prayer, perhaps because the removal of all ungodly desires is not the path to God.The "path to God" is repenting,turning away from your sins, out of a realization that apart from Christ's substitutionary death on the cross you are hopeless. Salvation gets you in through the narrow gate, but God doesn't want us to be content sitting just inside the gate. He wants us to continue down the path. That requires continued repentance, daily turning away from sin, and praying that God will complete you. I know that God can remove ungodly desires from people. I am not saying we are always freed completely, but I trust He can. We should pray that God makes our will His will, our desires his desires. Can you really argue with that prayer?I'm not giving advice that I don't put into practice myself. To everyone,Many in this thread have discussed repenting before one another to seek revival within ourselves. Let's do it. Start a new thread for repenting before one another and a Holy God. Don't let the political nature of this particular thread sidetrack us. Forget the humanistic psychobabble and let's get ourselves right with God. Sin is sin, no matter what particular flavor it is. Let's recognize it and get on our knees.Melissa

dorcas,Ill: John Kerry presidential canidate stood for abortion and gay rights. Should John Kerry be president standing for killing babies?? Of course not but if that was hidden then we might have a ungodly president.As a pastor I had a mason IN leadership. When I found out he was a mason I had to expose this to get him off my board. Are you saying its wrong to expose sin. It doesnt matter what sin ie: fornication, adultery etc...If they're in leadership??

The point, as pointed out by Ironman, is that the Gaithers shouldn't approve of an actively practicing, unrepentant, open homosexual saying that her lifestyle is O.K. with GodI looked for a Gaither Web Site to see if I can find out for my self what they think. I guess I'm a bit naive - 'cause I can't find any email address. Our job as Christians is to share the Gospel with them and allow the Holy Spirit to hold them accountable. Yes, there is a need for mutual accountability. And we haven't been doing that. I must confess that for years I was doing a great job in church, and was given a lot of credit for being a very good Christian, but no one held me accountable for my fear of man, my perfetionistic tendencies, my craving for man's affirmation etc. Instead they praised me for being a good Christian (imagine that!) However, I'm sure that if I had a moral sin, I would have heard about it quite quickly. I like the way you use the word, "allow". It frees the Spirit to do the work of conviction. When we go around assigning characteristics and opinions to God that aren't in His nature, we are guilty of idolatry Amen, sister! As has been said, Man made God in his own image and worships his image. Can you argue with that? The only time the word, "busy" has made me nervous is when I was guilty of laziness. Here again, it is an issue of Spirit conviction. For some, laziness (perhaps a thin coverup for fear, unbelief, etc) may be the trouble. However, for some ambitious types like me, who have a tendency to run ahead of the Spirit, there may be a need to learn to wait on God. I know that God can remove ungodly desires from people.Can you really argue with that prayer?It is not the prayer that is being disputed, but the motive for it. And only God knows that. There are many who want to be freed from their struggles/addictions/weaknesses more than they want God. They want the security of a tidied-up life but not necessarily the sufficiency of Christ. ... seek revival within ourselves. Let's do it. When I first committed myself to revival, I had no idea what that would entail. It certainly requires a divine work, and that is not a neat, quick-fix work. Thank you for keeping us on track. Diane

As a pastor I had a mason IN leadership. When I found out he was a mason I had to expose this to get him off my board. Brent, these words have really got me thinking: How does one know what sins to deal with in this manner, because there are sooooo many. The Bible is clear that we are NOT to be equally yoked with the world, and yet this is such a common problem in the church - leaders who are putting their trust, devotion, and energies in the things of the world, like material things, salaries, education, their houses, status, benefits.... etc. And this is draining the spiritual life right out of the church. You can't kick everyone off the board, or fire pastors who are worldly, or there might not be many left. I wonder how one would know where to draw the line. What Bible guidelines would one use? It seems that Jesus was harshest with the religiously upright, but those are the ones we seem least concerned about.... just some thoughts.... Just curious; was the Mason putting his masonic commitment ahead of the church. That's the way it usually is, but I've seen Mason's drift from that, and turn towards God. Diane

Dorcas, Your right I'm not suggesting Bill Gaither is gay because what he did. I think you misunderstood my post.Diane,Your either a mason or a christian.. I dont believe you can be a christian and a mason! The masonic lodge is satanic!! To answer some of what you said... I had qualifications for leaders: No smoking, No drinking, No drugs, No porn etc.., filled with the Holy Ghost, faith... They must have a prayer life, bible reding, attend church regular.I didnt expect alot at first until we grew spiritually in the body. I told them a leader is an example to the flock... Few within the church walk the narrow road but many within walk the broadroad. Somtimes you have to start a church within the church. ;-)

Dorcas, a point of clarification here on the colored words. There is a division that should have been inserted by a paragraph break there. I don't know if this was written by Krispy originaly, or is something that was written by someone else. It should be divided as follows;He then said: "You know, the young woman who wrote that song is here with us tonight, and maybe you're like she was and you've heard about a God who would reject you for who you are or who might turn you away for something you've done or where you've come from. Well I want you to know that I don't know that God. The only God I know is the one in this song that she wrote. The one that says, 'I am right here for you.' The one who sent His son. The one who says, 'You are my child, I love you, come stand by my side.' So sing with me again!"Not to muddy this more, but this excerpt is from the link with the picture and ends with the line; Okay, "Lost IT" does not begin to describe my reactions. And is Martha's retelling of the incident.The rest of the narrative ....In fact, the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for tears; He died for sin. And He suffered to save men FROM their sins not in their sins (Titus 2:14). The Bible plainly teaches that homosexuality is a grave sin. It is described in Romans 1:26-28 as "vile affections" (v. 26), "against nature" (v. 26), "unseemly" (v. 27), and "a reprobate mind" (v. 28). Christ taught us that there is no salvation without repentance. "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Lk. 13:3, 5). To the woman caught in adultery He said, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (Jn. 8:11). To the cripple man who was healed, Christ said, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (Jn. 5:14). The grace of God does not teach men that they can live as they please and still have God's blessing. "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12). By God's marvelous grace, any homosexual can repent of his sin and cast himself upon Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Saviour, but he cannot continue to live in his fornication and moral perversion and pretend that all is well between him and a holy God. Further, fornication is a cause for church discipline (1 Cor. 5).Again is either Krispys or whoever it was that wrote this.

I have started a new thread in the "lounge" section called, "I confess, remove this log..." because I felt the need to confess before you, brothers and sisters and wondered if anyone else would want to do the same. There has been much discussion about repentance and the need to be just when accusing others of sin. Also there has been mention of the point of this forum being revival. I want to invite everyone to join me in revival starting in our own hearts. It's time to let God convict us where we need to be convicted.

Mike,Are there any written rules/guidelines/requirements for citing our sources with our posts here on Sermon Index? The method or lack thereof in citing sources would and is never allowed in the classroom. One opens themselves for liable with unsubstantiated claims. Yes I know this is just a religious open forum, but possibly we could entertain at least the thought of being more professional and above reproach in these matters?tonys

All for that. Excellent suggestion. It is not stated explicitly more likely 'assumed'...above reproach in these matters?As we ought to be in all matters. Very good, will pass this along to Greg.

This seems to be a generalised comment, but if you go down a couple of replies, there is a question, did you write this originally Krispy or someone else?Or is it "Original or Krispy" :-P

Dorcas, no need to edit, it seems to be pretty well explained. There is another link there at the begining, believe it has 'news' in the link, the orignal is towards the bottom....

hi all,one thing that will torque me is when we criticize others who have done great things for God. we criticize a pastor of a hundred or thousands and have no church of our own. we criticize missionaries who have left their homes to minister to the lost in other lands and have success(how else would we know about them) and we can not leave our tv or computer. we criticize those who have gone to battle for the Lord and we have yet to see our first fight.we criticze the people who have tried and had some failure when some of us have never tried. we kill our wounded soldiers.Jesus said " let him without sin cast the first stone". in my bible study and meditation on the scriptures i was hung up by Jesus on " if my people which are called by My Name shall humble themselves". God would not let me go on. humble yourself, humble yourself etc. He showed me that there is no reason to go any further untill you do the first step. if i criticize you i say that i have it all together and you do not.forgive us Lord! jimp

we criticze the people who have tried and had some failure when some of us have never tried.Oh my, that's a great observation. I sometimes wonder if a critical nature is a result of having too many choices available for how my filet mignon in church should be prepared. We have wonderful music, preaching, teaching...although everything isn't rosy in the church, perhaps the impression that everything is rotten is because nothing can suit our over-stimulated bored palates. Good comment jimp. MCbtw, I noticed you failed to capitalize the pronoun "I" in your sentences and... (Oops there I go again! Just kidding brother! :-P )

I had neglected to address a point earlier, which I think fits in here better as a follow up of Jimp’s, Compton’s and Dorcas’s comments about how we treat others. I had suggested to Pottershand that we change one word in a comment she made. She said, Now, the modern church doesn't tend to address sin as it should. I suggested: Perhaps you could change the word “sin” to “the sinner”. Pottershand responded: no thanks. I meant, "sin".I need to explain what I meant by my suggestion. I wasn’t implying that we should ignore sin and pamper the sinner, as I suspect may have been assumed, and justifiably so, for that is a very big problem in our churches (antinomianism).I believe that the way we handle the sinner is of utmost importance if we wish to effect change in their lives. I’ll explain by way of a Biblical example: We all know of the account where some religious rulers handled an adulterous woman poorly. Jesus did not disagree with them regarding the sin, but he handled her (the sinner) very differently. "The teachers of religious law and Pharisees brought a woman they caught in the act of adultery. They put her IN FRONT of the crowd. "Teacher," they said to Jesus, "this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?"I envision these 'very important' religious men - the social dignitaries of the day prying this woman away from the man, leaving him behind, and then dragging her through the streets to the Temple. Imagine how she must have felt being propped up in front of a very large crowd that had gathered to hear Jesus teaching. No doubt some of them would have been members of her family and her village. Think of the excruciating humiliation she must has endured - shame at its fullest. That would have been an ancient method of 'tarring and feathering' - something that the masses typically love to do to the rejects of their society. What barbaric behavior on the part of these religious leaders! They probably felt ecstatically self-righteous the entire time they had her in their clutches. But they viewed her as sub-human. They had no empathy for her, or consideration of her past life - as a woman in her day, considered property, who was likely never treated with dignity and respect, and thus who had no self-respect. (obvious by her willingness to let her body be used) The Pharisees were taking a stand against sin all right – and not only against the woman’s sin. They were also trying to expose the “sin” of Jesus – the sin of being too permissive with sinners, thus violating the law. Jesus pricked their conscience by saying, "Let those who have never sinned throw the first stones."John 8:4 NLT Those were really words of lovingkindness - giving them a chance to face their own shameful sin and seek God's mercy. Obviously, they were somewhat touched by Jesus words, because they all walked away. Not one single stone was thrown! Suddenly the "tarring and feathering" came to a halt. That is what happens when anyone truly encounters Jesus. They stop condemning and shaming others.Perhaps the saddest part of this story, is that the adulterous man never got to experience Jesus. He never received a chance to taste his mercy, never got a chance to repent. He was left in his shame before God. His religious leaders did him no favor by absolving him. They left him to eventually experience the judgment of the Lord. In reality he was delivered into a far greater condemnation than the woman. By handing the woman to Jesus, they really led her into a life-changing encounter with him. Jesus was tender towards her; he covered her shame. He restored her dignity and worth and he mercifully gave her a chance to change her ways and live a new life. He said, "Go and sin no more." vs. 11I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus was the only man she ever met who fully respected her as a woman and who refused to collaborate with her accusers, and expose her in shame. That was his nature. Our Lord never shames people into his kingdom. On the contrary, he extends mercy. The only ones he shames are the ones who feel no shame or guilt for their wrongdoing. Diane

hi, k k ; i never even yhought of you when writing my post. why would you take umbrage at this post when i used we? i would not be critical of you writing a piece against criticizm. i pray that God uses you mightily in your office as pastor.God has shown me not to spend any more time criticizing someone than i spend interceding in tears for them about that which i concider as error. jimp ps "feed My sheep"

sis dorcasyou're welcome! :-P you had said you had "a question" :-P

Loveslave wrote: God is LIGHT, and all who come to Him will be exposed. If we do not do it with another according to the word in confessing one to another, He will publicly do it Himself, and I for one would rather fall into the hand of God and do it behind close doors with the brother that I have wronged then on the other side. What a monumental statement!!!! anyone else feel convicted? Some SI members have joined together on their knees in repentance. Go to the " Don't Fight Conviction, Confess And Repent" thread in the lounge section if you are like me and are ready to get the log out of your eye. I pray God will send us a revival on this forum that springs up from each persons heart and then spreads out to the world.Several things can happen when we have open confession in a forum like this... a) it can begin to sound like bragging about how bad we've been. Especially testimonies... and b) it can be an opportunity to plant a seed of lust when the confessions are a sexual nature.Of course, examine your heart before doing open confessions to see what your motive is and don't do it unless you have direct leading from The Holy Spirit...

I am not familiar with Jessie Penn-Lewis but I don't see any scripture proofs in the excerpt you shared. Scripture is to be taken above experiences and opinions. Here's what God has to say about confession in James 5:16 (KJVR), "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Of course examine your motives before public confession. The "wave of public confession" she describes sounds like the historic revivals! ;-)

Krispy said: I often get accused of being judgmental and critical when I don’t believe I am. I am trying to be faithful to ALL of scripture... not just the easy parts that make us all feel good. Krispy, There is always the risk of being misunderstood when we disclose error. And you are right, we must protect God’s people from heresy. That is the loving thing to do. After all, historically, the church has been deeply harmed because people blindly followed after man, trusting man to lead him on the right path. I’d like to take this thought further via an analogy – comparing deception to a disease: When a contagious disease is going around there are different ways we can handle it: 1 We can keep away from anyone who manifests that disease.2. We can go around wearing masks and isolation garb. This gets us closer to people, but not too close. 3. Or we can build immunity to the disease. I believe that the most dangerous deceptions are the ones that most resemble our own convictions. They are near us, and we become accustomed to them, ie, they “grow” on us, and we likely don’t realize that they are developing. Therefore I have come to believe that the best defence is not to “keep away”, but to develop strong immunities against deception in general. We do that by learning truth and promoting truth. Only when we know truth can recognize the false. And each person has to learn to discern for themselves rather than lean on their spiritual leaders. Unfortunately people are not encouraged to think or ask questions. Maybe people just don’t bother because they feel secure as they are. So they are gullible. And with a sleepy mind, they fall prey to cunning deceivers who promise a “new thing” of some kind. I feel that the best immunity is a total surrender of our lives to God – allowing him to transform or minds, teach us his truths by the Spirit, and reveal our sins and unbelief. (Our hidden sins and guilt make us susceptible to deceivers.) I’m not a Gaither fan. But let’s say that I was his faithful admirer. Perhaps the real reason I would follow after him (or other Christian entertainers) may be that I have “lost my first love”. Then it would do me no good to know HIS sin. I need to realize MY sin, and repent – ie turn back to God. When I am rightly related with Christ, then these Christian peripherals, or even false prophets will not be that enthralling to me. God himself built some very good immunities right into the structure of his Church. We don’t always make use of them, however. He gave the five-fold ministry so that people wouldn’t be tossed back and forth by every wind of doctrine; he gave us his word and Spirit, etc… Without those things in place, I’m convinced that reporting the names of various leaders will not do much good. People are bound to find someone to follow. Diane

I am not familiar with Jessie Penn-Lewis but I don't see any scripture proofs in the excerpt you sharedJessie Penn Lewis wrote, "War on the Saints" after seeing the Welsh revival go astray. Her book is worth reading, because we can see so many parallels in todays fanatical branches of the faith. She helps us learn how to distintuish between what is of the Spirit and what is not. Sometimes I find her writing overwhelming, but, that may be because I did not experience what she did. Not everyone agrees with all her persuasions, "but that shouldn't negate the clear teachings and warnings against the dangers underlying the extreme, unscriptural emphasis of our modern array of "sects" behind which is so often hidden the clever nmanipulation of deceiving spirits." (from the forward of the abridged version)Diane

Loveslave wrote: people were crying on one another shoulders, there went thru that church that day a healing wave. That's beautiful. I pray that will happen everywhere. Praise the Lord! :-D

the most vulnerable "Christians" on earth are those seeking Revival, because they are looking for any possible way to find "unity" and "a movement", etc. MeAgain, this is a very significant word for each of us. I feel that there should be a separate thread on this. May I quote you? Or better still, would you like to start one? A good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep and will suffer whatever persecution or riducule to protect them from counterfeits.This thought is futher developed in this thread What is a pastor and what do they do?In it Philologos takes us through the Scriptural use of the word "Pastor", or "shepherd". This is a very worthwhile read! You will see this role of leading and protecting the sheep developed. Diane

Hi Krispy ... any direct response from the Gaither/Lowery camp on this story that you can find? I've looked and all I see are from those using the opportunity to advocate for, and support, Stevens' ministry. Gaither INC. has a huge following [>15,000 last Friday at his latest homecoming concert here in Jax] If it is, as has been supposed here in the forum, that he and Mark were blindly smoozing, those things happen and I'd expect some spin from their camp. But if it were to be a direct endorsement of Stevens' ministy, I do not think the masses that support him would continue to support him with their pocketbooks.My Southern Gospel group [and others] spends a fair share of church funds on his sheet music, soundtrax and videos over the course of a year and I would like to get a better handle on the incident to address it when the questions come up [I intro'ed them and they read the forums also.]

I emailed the Gaithers days ago and no response. I dont expect much.

brentw wrote:I emailed the Gaithers days ago and no response. I dont expect much.Why is that? maybe they just haven't had time to read and respond. :-)

Maybe its a lack of faith. ;-)

Me again wrote:I've read a lot over these years, and the most vulnerable "Christians" on earth are those seeking Revival, because they are looking for any possible way to find "unity" and "a movement", etc. etc.. Personal revival is a wonderful necessity, if one is spiritually dead.I don't understand what I perceive to be a really negative view of Christians seeking out personal revival (being conformed more to the image of Christ). If one was spiritually dead one wouldn't be seeking out a profoundly deeper relationship with Christ, seeking to be crucified with Him.If one is walking in the very steps of their Master, they are IN Revival.Personally, I have never met anyone who is walking in the "very steps" of Christ. Sounds like we all need to let God work on us because by that definition no one is in revival.On another thread me again wrote:A "dead" person is identical to Christ and walking in the Spirit 24/7. Is there anyone here who claims that this is where they are ?So who needs a personal revival then? Does anyone here claim they do not?!I haven't been posting on this forum long, but it seems like everytime repentence, guilt, confession, or revival is mentioned, people get nervous. Why do you think that is? I haven't seen anyone suggest that we all drink special kool-aid or anything heretical. People are just seeking deeper relationships with God. I don't understand what seems to be a few people trying to quench what may be a move of God in people's lives."me again", I'm not trying to attack you, it's a reccurrent theme I am seeing and I felt it needed to be addressed.

Correct me Pottershand, if I am wrong. When you said: it seems like everytime repentence, guilt, confession, or revival is mentioned, people get nervous. Why do you think that is?are you responding to the discussion about the Jessie Penn Lewis quote? I'd agree that there is a reason to be concerned about forced confessions, forced "revival", forced "manifestations", etc. It is true that wherever the Spirit does something magnificent, the devil is right around the corner to sabatoge the work by taking it off on a tangent. And he can always find eager beavers who want to "help" God along. I've heard it said, It's easy to start worshipping revival without realizing it. I have come to believe that there is a time when even our craving for "revival" must undergo a death process, just like Abraham had accept a "death" regarding an offspring. God wanted to bring it about miraculously, when all human ability to make it happen had died. We are a lot like toddlers who are eager to help Mommy in the kitchen. But, oh, how much of a mess we can make of it!In our craving for revival, we do not know what faulty desires lurk in our unconscious (heart), but God knows, and I believe that in these days he is bring about many deaths. We have seen many "false starts", many stray tangents of revival. However, we do not see so easily the quiet death process going on all the time deep within the hearts. It doesn't look very saintly and sanctified, but it is the process of learning to walk in faith - even when all is totally dark. God will, and is springing up new life - again in the hearts of his people, but if we are looking for certain "evidences of revival" we will likely miss it. And, yes, many have tried to quench the process because of fear of things getting off tangent, out of control, too emotional, too raw, or whatever. Even revival leaders of the past, found themselves trying to quench it, and had to realize that what seemed "out of order" was indeed from God. Jesus did some of his greatest miracles away from the spotlight, perhaps to keep people (like religious organization) from taking off with it looking for money and publicity, ex: selling revival caps and t-shirts, and making a movie of it,and claiming it under THEIR name. Diane

hi, "and this is how you shall know that they are My decples,that they love one another" or God is love and he who abides in God abides in love he who loveth not knoweth not God" or they were all in one accord" Lord change me so that i am not a hindrance in your body on the earth. jimp

"me again". first and foremost, I'm sorry. I didn't intend to be so hurtful or sound arrogant. I didn't intend to attack you, I was merely concerned because on many of the recent threads people would start to show signs of repentance/growth and people would often come along and poo-poo it. (I don't even remember specifically who and I don't think it's important.) I never wanted to question anyone's character or personal walk with the Lord. I just wanted clarification and to draw attention to what I perceived as a discouraging pattern. I will prayerfully examine myself to make sure I don't need to repent of spiritual pride and I am definitely going to back off of this thread. I wanted to publically apologize to you since I publically offended you. I hope you will accept my apology.

Roadsign,are you responding to the discussion about the Jessie Penn Lewis quote? In part, yes.And, yes, many have tried to quench the process because of fear of things getting off tangent, out of control, too emotional, too raw, or whatever. (in refrence to personal/corporate revival)That is what I was concerned about. Not trying to be judgemental or arrogant, just calling attention to exactly what you said.Thank you for your response. I will leave everyone alone so you can concentrate on the Gaithers and Homosexuals.

All this is really wiping out my brain cells, could you please pray for my brain cells to be replenished. :-?

-Dear friends,-Let's be aware of our response to other believers. Please. Jas. 5:9 - "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned (ouch!): behold, the judge standeth before the door" (AV)..-Please open the door. Let's let the Judge in - and the enemy's influence out...

Me, I'm not here to make enemies. I'm sorry. Period. I'm not passing judgement on anyone. I will not argue over this as it will not glorify God in any way. You and I need to resolve this in a P.M. and not drag any one else down over this. I'm done discussing this publicly as it has become a private issue.

Did anyone notice that this is one of the top ten most viewed threads on this site? Do I get a medal or something? LOLUnfortunately yes... and no, no medal. At some point it begins to make one wonder though ... There is awful lot of things going on in India right now, due to a particular festival happening there. A lot of of our own brethren are being persecuted due to this. It just isn't as tantilizing or controversial to take notice of, or to be a concern about.It's just an example ...

Do I get a medal or something?Hmmm, Mike maybe the leadership at SI could consider holding an awards banquet one night for at the conference being planned for next year. Who knows, maybe the Gaithers can be booked for the dinner music.Healing waters suggested,If anyone out there is REALLY concerned about the Gaithers and you want to get their attention. This is what you need to do...Send a donation via snail mail in the amount of a $100 and attach with it a letter of concern...P.S. and don't forget to include the check, in reality, the money is what's going to do the talking.Oh my...I am blessed by the sincerity of your approach to the Gaithers, but your comment here really reveals how peaceably cynical the fleeced sheep have become towards (some) spiritual leaders. I find the quiet inference that a ministry would respond to a letter of concern just because it contained a crisp Franklin much more recriminating then the original concern about homosexual associations. If someone was writing me in concern for my behavior, and included money, I would be insulted deeply by the brazenly low estimation of my motives.MC

Thanks much MeAgain. You and I had some edifying dialogues awhile back...I look forward to many more! Regarding my tongue-in-cheek suggestion about an awards ceremony, I assume the moderators know I was just being silly even through I didn't insert a winky face. (Although it might be a good-humored way to meet everyone. For instance I might qualify for the award of "The Dumbest Idea in Sermon Index".);-) MC

The biggest problem with wishing these things away is if one keeps responding to it to make a note ... :-? But it is understood, the classic; don't judge a book by it's cover. Just think that the broad view gets lost sometimes when there is so many of these type's of things coming up at the same time.

I just read through this whole thread, interesting to say the least. But I am wondering why you are focused on Bill Gaither, when to me the really questionable remark came from Mark Lowry:"Mark Lowry, who has sung with the Gaither Vocal Band for many years, approached her and said that he was proud of what she is doing. Surprised, she said, "You know what I'm doing now?" He replied: "I sure do and I wish the fundamentalist would find Jesus. They're going to have a lot to answer for, leaving out people that Jesus died for" To me, and I may be wrong about it, but that sounds more like a homosexual supportive statement than what Bill Gaither said. Has anyone contacted him about his statement?

Hi to all who are following this, just joined up. Have any of you read the following?On August 14th, I noted this story of the rather curious reaction of gospel singer Bill Gaither and some of his associates to a visit by Marsha Stevens, a singer and composer who is now a lesbian. Greg Wallace e-mails the following: I just spoke with Barry Stevens, president of Gaither Music, who called me this morning to discuss comments made by lesbian Christian artist Marsha Stevens (no relation). Barry was quite adamant that the photo on Ms Stevens' website (www.balmministries.com) in no way indicated his approval of her lifestyle. He furthermore stated that the comments by Bill and Gloria Gaither during the 12-31-02 concert were a distortion of what was really said from the stage, and is shipping me a videotape of the event as proof. Barry said that Bill is very concerned about how the photo is being used to imply that he is endorsing same-sex relationships, but is unsure of how to proceed. Barry said that the Gaither's attorneys are looking into the matter. Barry said Bill told him that he and Gloria had known Marsha for years and that her song "For Those Tears I Died," was a staple at Gaither concerts. As for the alleged conversation between Mark Lowry and Ms Stevens, Barry said that because there is no tape of the conversation, he has no way of knowing whether the conversation actually took place as purported in the Record, the online newsletter for Evangelicals Concerned, a self-proclaimed "national network of gay and lesbian evangelical Christians and friends." Barry did state that he and Mr Lowry attended Liberty University at the same time, and he expressed his personal confidence in the Christian comedian/singer. Mr Lowry's office has yet to respond to inquiries, though Barry said Mr. Lowry was very aware of the situation.Taken from: Midwest Conservative Journal, http://mcj.bloghorn.com/80cAnyone got any more info?