a struggling problem about God

God entrusts us with more when we have shown ourselves trustworthy with what He has already given us. Don't overthink and get sidetracked on this issue. Does God want you to follow the guidelines laid out in His scripture? Yes, He does. Do you have to figure out how all the misteries of God work? No. You know God wants you to study His word, so do that. You know God wants you to obey His commandments, so do it. You know He wants you to fullfill the Great commission, so do that. Ask Him how it all worked later when you have arrived at His throne. You will be able to sleep soundly and move on with your Christian walk by being a faithful steward of the information He has laid out for you in His word. Hope that helps.Melissa

hi i am andy 39 from uk..i have a problem that keeps bothering me..i am hoping u guys could help..basically it can be sumed up as if God is all knowing and knows my life from beginning to end..how can i not live what he as seen..hense i only have limited freewill for i can hardly not act out what God as seen.You are correct in that we cannot live apart from what God has seen. God even sees what we do in secret (Matthew 6:6). its got to the point where i am thinking about this even in veiw of judas..we know the o/t mentions a betrayer hense judas was stuck? he couldnt not fullfill what 1)God's planned/saw 2)he was created to do this,if not him SOMEONEJudas was used by God for a specific purpose...that purpose was to betray Jesus. This betrayal would lead Jesus into the hands of the Jewish authorities and then into the hands of the Romans who would crucify him...leading to our salvation.Judas played a vital role in history. He was used by God for a special purpose, albeit not good in the end for Judas himself.I am remined of Psalm 115:3, "Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him."Also, we must remember that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses. God used the wickedness of both Pharaoh and Judas to accomplish his own will. Does this make sense? Is this fair? I think Romans 9 answers these questions:Romans 9: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?I hope this helps you in any way. I by no means have all the answers...I myself am still trying to come to a complete understanding. I do know that God is in control and that I belong to him. I take great comfort in these verses:Romans 828And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I think the most greatest thing is God loves you and accepts you even though He knows in 15 mins your gonna sin.AMEN! Well said.

I don't believe God forces you to sin or anyone else. Knowing something will happen doesn't mean that you forced it. I can watch someone walk into a room and say, " I know for a fact that he/she will walk out of this room." I am not forcing them to walk out, I just know that they will. Ofcourse this is a feeble example compared to God's knowledge... There are some things that God seems to 'force' but he is not willing that any should perish. How many of you have kids? When (or if) you decided to have a child, did you not know they were going to do something wrong in their life? Surely you know that your kid will lie to you once in his/her life, yet you still had a desire to reprodce, correct? Maybe God had a similar desire?

jay dont u have a problem that he used judas like that? i do..andyI admit, it is hard. It is hard to imagine Judas not having any chance at salvation and being condemned to damnation even before he was born.I think I know what you are going through because I have experienced it before, in my case it was, "What is the purpose of prayer? Why pray for someone if God will just do whatever he wants to do anyway?"However, God does tell us to pray. He does not say, "Pray if you want to." He says, "Pray without ceasing." 1 Thessalonians 5:17Isaiah 55:8-9 says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. It is hard to understand, but we must realize that we are not God. God is a lot smarter than us and knows a lot more than we do. Also, going back to Romans 9, who are we to talk back to God? As some other brothers have mentioned, it is not our job to completely understand everything about God...we are called to believe in his son Jesus Christ and make disciples of all nations.In summary, it is good that you have questions. We all do. No person on this earth has a complete grasp of the soverenty and holiness of God, but we have faith that he is who is says he is...a God who is love. 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16.

To be honest I think it's foolish to charge God with being "unfair." He is not unfair but that is somewhat beside the point. He is the one who gave you a mind to think that something is "unfair." If (which He is not) God was unfair, what good would it do to rebel against Him or call Him names. He is going to judge everyone of us. Who, before standing in court, throws paperwads at the judge? No one who is in their right mind. I think when we try to blaim or accuse God of things it might possibly be pride or us not wanting to take responsibility.

Rom 9:20 .... O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay[?].....

hi i guess i'm seeing this differently to you guys..my veiw is if God as seen it then ur going to do it right? who are you not to do what God as seen..how can it truely be freewill when ur doing what's already know ur do? it might be a kind of free will here on earth but its limited..does a actor have free will when he follows a script?..Gods Shakespeare and ur Laurence Oliver only difference is we dont know it..andyAndy, you are a Calvinist who struggles with being a Calvinist. Not a bad thing at all. (Well, depends on who you ask. lol)Let me share with you were I am in my Calvinist walk:I grew up believing in complete Free-Will of man. I am a person who makes my own choices and I can chose to follow Christ or choose to reject him, but it all pointed back to ME and MY choice.Recently, I started reading Romans 9 and through the preaching of a Calvinist preacher on the radio, God opened my eyes to predesination and election.Also, this verse in John 6 has been stuck in my mind recently:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Now, if I can understand your problem, you are bothered by the fact that God might not "draw" everyone to Jesus (for example: Judas). By draw I mean, bring conviction of sins. Is this correct? If not, let me know...I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.My response to that is that God does not have to draw anyone to Jesus. We are all sinners who deserve to be punished for our sins. In fact, it is proof of God's amazing mercy and grace that any of us are forgiven for our sins!Let us never pray, "God give me what I deserve." Let us always pray, "God have mercy on me!"

Prayerbone,The most important thing for you is your relationship with God. If you have a desire to know God and live for him then you have assurance that he has called you and loves you very much.I see it this way,There are two people: Jim and John.Jim and John both are sinners who live for themselves and have no desire for God. They both live however they wish.One day, Jim and John are driving in a car. John the passenger turns on the radio to listen to music but while he is finding a station, he hears a preacher talking about salvation.John is quick to turn to another station but Jim stops him. Jim listens to the preacher talk about Heaven, Hell, salvation, faith and Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world. Jim really starts to wonder what all this is about and seeks more information. John on the other hand, is just wondering what happened to his friend Jim. "Come on Jim." he says, "You know that stuff isn't real."But Jim isn't so sure anymore.Now, this story is just an example of how some people hear the gospel message and respond...while others hear the exact same message and do not.I believe that God draws some people to him and does not draw others. Why? Only God knows that. I am sure that the reason provided is not suffient for you, but I believe it. As I mentioned before, God's ways are higher than ours. His understanding is greater than ours. The bible clearly says that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.I would encourage you to ask God yourself during some quiet prayer time. Pour out your heart to him and ask him all these questions. The bible says that if you draw near to God he will draw near to you.I pray that this has helped in any way.

Sorry this is so long, but I've got to admit that I agree with Josh here. The there comes a point that you have to just accept that God is God. The way He made this whole deal is acceptance first, understanding later.Consider also, that the whole point to life is relationship with Him, which is expressed through love for others. Choice exists, but for most of us, it needs a little redefining. Choice is about willing participation in God's plan. A big poblem with modern evangelism, is that it's tainted the statement "God has a plan for your life." Modern evangelism has painted that to imply the importance of the believer, as in "God needs you to get His work done". The emphasis is always on "His plan". It's a matter of, "Here's what's happening. You're either in or out."Consider the following hypothetical situation. God chooses for Person A to reevive the church, and for Person B to display His judgement on a nation: Person A grows up in a satanist family. He spends his lifetime manipulating people for power, and causing enemies to bicker until they've destroyed each other. He makes it his personal project to descredit the pastor of the local church, ruining every marriage and disbanding the church along the way. He joins the church, quickly rising to leadership, due to his "supernatural abilities" and spreads ever subtle heresies and successfully seduces the married women with subtle flattery, realising that their husbands have been starved of affection. His efforts lead to a church split. Half of those who leave are the result of the pastor buying into the man's lies, half again the result of hurts caused by lives lived in accordance to the teachings, while of those who remain, all but two are loving it, utterly besmitten by this seducer. The two that remain see the lies, and that leads them into their Bible, to search for truth (it's amazing how decption is one of the best catalysts for seeking the truth). The two begin to warn others, only to be heckled, and accused of being "devisive". As they warn, they discover each other, and begin to meet to pray. Then the unthinkable happens, the seducer is arrested by the Spirit of God in a "Damascus road" type experience. He repents and confesses to the pastor, and then dies in a car crash on his way home. The pastor now begins to meet with the "two" and as they study and pray together, truth begins to come forth in his preaching, as he weighs truth, long neglected. May are saved, and the church grows to ten times it's previous size, however not all in the same place, but several other churches are planted, mostly on the foreign field.Person B, on the other hand, grows up in a God fearing family. Early on in his life an angel appears to him, revealing God's purpose for him. The thought of this fears him, and so he seeks the counsel of other believers. He receives conflicting advice from different "christians", eventually settling on the angel being satan coming as an "angel of light" to deceive him. After all, God is a loving God, and any God who would judge a nation isn't loving in his book.Like many, the existance of God is successfully disproven in college, but still this strange vision from his youth haunts him. He decides to go on to become a peace activist. He goes to Africa and deciding to follow "Christ's example" he helps orphans by improving living conditions and providing education. One student shows promise, and so he takes him under his wing, ensuring that he takes up a peaceful ethic and doesn't fall for the notion of a "vengeful God", like his parents. The child grows and the kind man dies. However, with his death, aid to the childs village diminshes, and the children begin to starve again. The child is now a man, and he finds refuge in a Jihad training camp, where he is converted to Islam, and takes a special hatred to the "American who gave him false hope"'s nation. He moves to America, and begins a terrorist cell, which spwans and multiplies, until their are cells in every major city. Within a few years, there are dirty bombs going off everywhere, and the nation is left saking themselves, "Why has God forsaken us?"The question is, which one deserves hell? The Person A or Person B? The answer is simple, both. However, which one will be in heaven? One would assume only the first.Though the first dedicated his life to cruelty and distruction, and the second to benevolence, the first led to many being saved from hell, while the second led to many deaths. However, in the end, God had his way, regardless of the participant's actions.The first man entered into heaven in shame, while the second entered hell in glory.Sin is simply misused freedom. God judges the heart, based upon our works, in the light of his word. Judas had already rebeled against God several times in his life, by stealing money, and judging Christ's actions and motives. I believe that if he hadn't, he would have "dipped the sop" with tears in his eyes, as he knowingly fulfilled God's intended plan for his life.Salvation merely brings us into a right relationship with God. His plan for us never changes, it's now simply about whether we fulfill it, or He fulfils it through us. Never forget, salvation is never about us anyway.:-)

Prayerbone,Please consider reading Romans 8 and 9 and take these questions to God in prayer. The Holy Spirit will guide you in all truth.God Bless.P.S. I can tell that God is really trying to show you something important, be strong in your faith. Humble yourself before God and he will lift you up.

prayerbone wrote:that worries me more lol..thats like everything is stacked and if were lucky were picked if not tough.. that makes me think God why did u even bother to create all this.. wouldnt the ones not chosen be better off if u hadnt even bothered?These are questions that need to be asked until you receive and answer, and never allow yourself to create one in the interim (no matter how tempting it might be).However, only ask this question if you want to know the answer, and not in order that God should justify Himself. And if you really want to know the answer, then brace yourself for it, as it usually only comes through dark circumstances.May I recommed Art Katz' Beyond Categories or simply study Psalm 73, which this sermon is an exposition of. May I also recomend many doses of Oswald Chambers, as this man had a unique gift in expounding the difficult and making it digestablem without compromising it (considering that his teaching stood the test of being preached though the first World War converting soldiers in the face of harsh brutality, how simpler are our issues).

JaySaved wrote:I can tell that God is really trying to show you something important, be strong in your faith. Humble yourself before God and he will lift you up.Amen to that:-)

Hi prayerbone... I'm going to say some stuff that will probably get me in a WHOLE lot of trouble, but I came across this question a while back and had many many problems with it. (Mine were a little different than yours like, "If God knows a baby is to be aborted, does it have a soul?" and "If God knew at the beginning that person A and person C were not going to choose him, it seems a little cruel to make them with a soul and then carry out his punishment." Not that God is not justified to do so, obviously! We are his creation and, as was said before, He and only He has the right to do whatever He wants with us! That much is true. But please, pray hard, and at least hear me out before you discard this message. It helped me a great deal. First: Genesis 6:6-7 (King James Version)And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.I believe that the church is in error on many subjects. (It seems it always has been!) But I believe that this is huge. The church teaches that God is everywhere, all powerful, and knows everything. Please go and read all of Psalm 139, but for time and space sake, I will only include a portion: Psalm 139 1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.From what I have learned, this passage is the most commonly referred to for this topic. I challenge you to this: Search the scriptures! Grab a concordance, get on biblegateway.com or blueletterbible.org, and search! See if you can find ANYWHERE that claims God knows the future. (Why would God repent making man if He knew for certain they would fall from Him? Sounds kinda schitzophrenic to me...The fact is, God knew that He had given man, and angels, a choice. A free will. People will ask Christians, "So, why did God put the tree in the garden?" And most will respond, without much hesitation, "what good is free will, without another choice?" You will bring up prophecy... ok. (Forgive me for I don't know the reference, but you might...) Before Jesus is handed over to be crucified he tells his disciples the whole point of prophecy! (As does God many times in the O.T.) He says: "And I tell you this before hand so that when it happens, YOU MIGHT BELIEVE." God does not sit in front of some magic crystal ball and He concentrates real hard and then tells us what he sees. Scripture says that He has determined the end from the beginning. See Isaiah 46 (especially 9-11)... God is powerful. Just like with Pharoah. God did not strip Pharoahs gift of free will to establish His purpose! God put pressure on Him to bend his decision! Gods divine purpose was for the people of Israel to be set free... but God is not willing to strip someones free will away from them. But, what God sets out to do, NO ONE can stand in the way of! He will part seas, send plagues, whatever He needs to to get His will done! (Without removing free will!) God also says: Jeremiah 17:9-10The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Even mans heart He must search and try the reins to understand us! The Bible says that God tests us to know our ways! That doesn't sound like a fortune teller God who knows exactly the way I will respond in the next few seconds. For instance: I have every power and choice right now to get up from my desk and walk over to the person next to me and smack them straight in the face. I do. God wouldn't stop me from doing it, although he would grieve my decision!!! But, God does know the heart! He knows the heart, He knows the past, He knows everything that is happening! Not just what we know in our limited view. So, knowing my past, and the character He is building in me, He would presume that I would not get up and smack the guy next to me. Think about Abraham and Isaac! Just as Abraham is about to sacrifice his son, God says something like, "NOW I know that you love me above all else." He tested his heart to see if it matched his words! I am by no means trying to limit God! God knows EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW!!!! And more! He can also, more accurately than anyone, predict our moves! He also is working for his divine purpose. He knows the end from the beginning, not because some magical date popped up in His mind, but because HE WILL BRING IT TO PASS!!! He is beautiful, and just. He experiences things with us in the moment. That is why God grieves, and rejoices. Hopefully this all makes sense, and I pray that you will at least look into this and above all else, PRAY before dismissing it. This has helped me in so many ways! Lastly, Christians unfortunately have a tendancy to give "pat answers". These things put a block in our minds when we study, when we pray and they are meant to be dealt with. People will point you back to the direction of God and remind you of passages that challenge us all saying, "who are we to question God". Those things are amazing! And they are in there for a reason! But Christianity is not an ignorant faith. It has answers! (Ironically, in my study I have never found a scripture that says or even alludes to saying: You will never understand God, don't try! We don't have the mind of God, because we are not God. So in a sense this is true! But at the same time, God gave us the Bible to reveal himself to us! His wills, His loves, His hates. All so that we can understand! We are not followers of a blind faith! Thank you Jesus! We are not intended to just shut up and believe blindly. I hope this helps! It did for me! Your sister

bro prayerbonewe had a discussion on predestination and free will some time back which the Lord led me to start to help me reconcile the 2. they seem diametrically opposed but i learned a few things.1) our perception of free will has been distorted by our culture, in the U.K. and America there is a lot said about freedom and the idea is that one can do whatever one wants.2) we have free will but we can't do anything outside of what the Lord allows, our will doesn't superscede His.3) the mechanics of reconciling free will and predestination are unwieldy, i know myself to be a vessel of mercy so i'm going to set about working in that capacity.we looked a Romans 9 which spoke of predestination and the election of God. there are references made to Jacob and Esau, and how God hated Esau before he was born and loved Jacob before they were born so that the election of God may stand. some people think God hated Esau because esau sold his inheritence for food but that's not true, God hated him before he was even born.here is the link to the discussionhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8646&forum=36&63anyway bro Jaysaved found this quote by C.S. Spurgeon which summed it up for me.Found the following on this website:http://www.adrian.warnock.info/2005/12/spurgeon-on-predestination-and-free.htmSpurgeon on predestination and free willThe system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.the last paragraph summed it up for me so i stopped trying to fiured it all out but it'll make sense in heaven!

Here is the true answer to your delima. There is no fault in God period. There is no evil and no injustice in him. It does not need to be explained it must be excepted. To assert ones own sense of righteousness above Gods is a fundemental error.please resolve yourself to the full belife that if there be any fault, any shortcoming, any wrong, that it is in you! not God.1 Corinthians 13:12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

God gave Adam the choice, the choice was "fair". Adam chose death, God did not force him.The choice was neither cruel nor unfair. The outcome of that choice also was neither cruel or unfair, it was JUST.Personally, I'm glad that God is not "fair"! If God were "fair" He would not have intervened with our chosen destinies and we would all be toast.

You may find this thread interesting:Oringinal Sin? Adam or Me?

hi,Jim but if i stole a apple from you,would you blame my greatgreatgreat....Grandson?andyHere is my understanding of "Original Sin":In Genesis 2:15-17:The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."Adam and Eve disobeyed God and God cast them out of the garden of Eden. They brought sin into the world. Notice God told Adam Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."God told Adam not to do something or he would die. Adam disobeyed God and as we well know by Adam not walking around anymore...he died.So therefore as decendants of Adam, we also die. Today people all over the world are dying...good people, bad people...Christians, non-Christians. The sin of Adam is passed down to each of us in our "sinful nature" (or KJV "flesh").An example of this would be a child. Does anyone have to teach a child to be selfish? Do children have to be taught to lie? No. They do this naturally...it is their nature to be selfish and think of themselves.This is my take on "Original Sin"So, to answer to question: My great, great...great, great grandfather did disobey a command of God. Because this sinful nature has been passed down through each generation I must be reconciled with God through Christ.Seeing that I am sinful by nature and that I cannot obtain righteousness with God through anything on my own...the "Good News" about a Saviour who will reconcile me to God is really GOOD NEWS!!!

Loveslave,Your theology mirrors that of mormonism, not Christianity. God did not desire us to fall.

MeAgain wrote:The Lord just knew through His foreknowledge what man's freewill would do.Otherwise, it was just a bad lab experiment and would NOT be "fair".God created us to love us, but knew what we would do, so He had to have the plan, of the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world ... or else, if it were not for giving us freewill to love and obey Him ... it wouldn't be True Real Love ... but a bunch of robots.This is the problem I have with many "holiness" proponents. They are too afraid to make God seem "unfair" and as a result they put the "cart before the horse" or worse yet, "kill the horse and strap on the cart to themselves". Having said that, I'm also greatful, because it forces someone like me to be more diligent in describing things accurately, out of a perpetual fear of misunderstanding. Many "holiness" preachers quote Ravenhill and Wesley until the cows come home, but neglect tha Wesley required all of his preachers to be versed in the teachings of William Law and Jacob Boehme, and when you consider that a mystic like Boehme is on the reading list of occult groups, you begin to realise the volitility of truth, and how easy it is to twist truth a tiny degree and out comes deception. However, true apostolic christians are contantly at risk of being misquoted and misdefined, as I believe the bro Loveslave has been.I'm reminded of Kieth Daniels testimony, where he tells of his mother's conversion. The was the last in the family of four to become a christian. Her protest was, "Keith I know that you're all trying to tell me I'm a sinner, but I'm not Keith." She then went on to challenge him to come up with one fault in her life of upstanding morality, integrity and mercy, saying "You tell me one thing that I've need forgiveness of, and I'll repent." Keith could not think of one thing, nor his father and brother. Then a woman of God came around and told her that her sin was to think that Christ died for everyone on the earth but her. That broke her.This is one reason why it is extremely wise to replace the word "sin" with "selfishness", in our mentality. In our western society, the "sin" seems to mean doing something wrong, but that falls far short of the biblical definition. Paul put like this, "That which is not of faith is sin." In other words, unless our actions proceed out of a trust in God, they are sinful. If our actions proceed out of self exertion, they fall short of giving God glory, which is the chief end of all being. That is true "selfishness".People think that the end of our being is obedience to God. The end isn't obedience. Obedience is simply the means to the ends, which is surrender. To quote Norman Grubb, "God doesn't help you, He takes over and does it for you. There's a difference." There is no room for boasting in that. The mercy shame of it all is the you need Him to do it.The issue of the tree of knowledge is that of a separate source of inspiration, which although was placed there by God, and is divine in the sence of containing all that God knows, it was prohibited from man, because His intention was never obedience in action, but relationship to His person. Good action is the logical outcome and only proof of right relationship. If the relationship is right, the action will never need to be forced, but comes natural. This is taking up the Lord's yoke.In a sence, man had to eat of the fruit, for without a preceeding death, there could not be life. This is not in the sence that some Jewish theologians believe that God wanted man to grow out of a need for him, by aquiring His knowledge, but that a redemption needed to occur in order for man not to be selfrighteous. Otherwise there would always be the thought that he were doing this for God, rather than understanding the "every good gift comes down".Wisdom (which is simply applied knowledge) isn't meant to be acquired through studious exertion, but through asking the Father, who gives liberaly to all that ask (James 1). There is also an element of learning through mistakes. An electrician is only as safe as his knowledge of what not to do.The reason why anyone goes to hell has nothing to do with action, apart from the fact that action proves the lack of relationship. This is why the books that are openned at the end are "works" and "life". If we are rating our life by our works, then we are displaying an attitude that seeks to replace God. However, to quote Paris Reidhead, "Listen dear heart; if you’ve ever seen yourself you’ll know you’re never going to be anything else than you were. For in me and my flesh there’s no good thing." There is no such thing as "me before". We don't "change" in as much as we lose our impulse to sin, but we enter into a life that is marked by an eternal dependance on Him to obey. We cling for eternity, for that is the point to it all, the "clinging".In essence, when the books are openned, our response shall be, "Don't even go there, for my best deeds fall short. I'll save you the trouble, I am guilty, nothing but guilty. Plaese by your mercy, am I recorded in your 'Life' book?" Only those that are "hid in Him" are there.

I'm not trying to deify the guy or anything, but you got to admit, the guy always seems to get it right:-). This is out of "Biblical Ethics" by Oswald Chambers.In this, he deals with the other often cited event, when dealing with predestionation, the hardening of Pharoah's heart.Oswald Chambers wrote:God has ordained that man is to govern man, whether he wants to or not. This keeps socialism from being “it”; the socialistic scheme falls to pieces because it ignores the fact that human institutions are not utilitarian, that is, they do not spring from the ingenuity of man, but were deliberately ordained by God for the government of man by man. Peter brings this out when he says, “Be subject to every ordinance of man,” but he is careful to add “for the Lord’s sake” (1 Peter 2:13 rv).Man is responsible to God for the government of the whole world, but if a man succumbs to the temptations of his official position, that very position will have the effect of hardening his heart away from God. We read in the Old Testament that Pharaoh hardened his heart (Exodus 7:14 et seq.); and we read also that God hardened his heart (Exodus 4:21 et seq.). The difficulty of this apparent contradiction is purely superficial. It must not be interpreted to mean that God hardened a man’s heart and then condemned him for being hardened. The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart by himself and by God is the expression of the working of one of God’s laws, and God’s laws do not alter. Any ruler or ordinary man who refuses to obey the right law will find himself distinctly hardened away from God. If a man is to govern rightly he must see that the institutions he builds up are based on the stabilities of human nature as God created it; otherwise havoc will be produced.