Must we sin?

It seems many Christians read chapter 7 of Romans and stay there, but Paul did not. Paul went on to Romans chapter 8. I say read Romans 6,7, and 8 until the breakthrough happens.Let me give you hope brother and say, no you do not have to sin! There is not a single sin in which you cannot find freedom from in Jesus Christ!

So your church repents of the same thing every week? How can one say that have repented, when they have not stopped doing it? Repentance is not saying you are sorry. Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.I think thats a great point brother that we don't need to continue in willful sin. So a man can stop from sinning (fornication, uncleaness, adultery, stealing). But truly there are sins we commit everyday that we are not aware of. Here are a few examples.-If we do not give the full glory to God every second of our lifes then we are thieves, stealing the glory of God.-If we have any inclination to please self then we are selfish.But let's think about this, does God demand everything from yes, possibly yes. But is that possible on this side of eternity, no. We still have the flesh and are still being brough from glory to glory. We need to STOP SINNING in the sense of blatent willful sins, and submit also to the process of God working into us His character.. But as one brother said this is a long process and as we try to submit to the spirit daily, hourly the process continues.We aren't as perfect as Jesus was on the earth but surely that can be our goal, but I hate to burst any bubbles but that is not going to be ultimately possible because Jesus is unique and was SINLESS so that he could be the propiation for our sins. Or otherwise we could die for our own sins.Just some thoughts.

I see two great lies when it comes to this subject:1) A Christian CANNOT sin2) A Christian CANNOT live without sinBoth are completely wrong.A Christian certainly CAN sin, but certainly does not HAVE to sin. No temptation over takes us except that which is common to man, but when we are tempted God ALWAYS provides a way out, and NEVER puts more on us then we are able to bear.So Holiness is not teaching that a Christian CANNOT sin, but rather is the biblical teaching that a Christian doesn't HAVE to sin.If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. I heard Leonard Ravenhill say in an audio I listened to recently, "It's not the inability to sin. It's in ability not to sin."And as Duncan Campbell used to say, "You'll never get to the place where it's impossible for you to sin. But praises be to God that you are in a position where it's possible for you not to sin."1Jo 4:17 - "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

These are great quotes Jesse from some powerful speakers but surely there is a difference between being perfect rather thenwalking in the spirit and having freedom over sin. If sinless perfection was a true doctrine that ravenhill, duncan campbell and others fully committed to then they would have taught it adamently because nothing less would be justice to the cross of christ if it allowed for a state of sinless perfection for us believers. I just don't see them teaching this, but rather teaching a victorious christian life, but we can never be 100% free from sin until we reach heaven. This is not a cause to backslide or to allow sin in our lifes but its rather an earnestly surrendering our lifes daily to the leading of the Holy Spirit and to the conformity to the likeness of Christ.Perhaps we have too narrow a view of what sin is and therefore we make it easy to claim perfection from sin.

Here is a powerful prayer from a puritan book called "the valley of vision" I can't but help fell that I have not submitted fully to divine love and surrendered all of my self as I read it:The Great GodO Fountain of all good,Destroy in me every lofty thought, Break pride to pieces and scatter it to the winds,Annihilate each clinging shred of self-righteousness,Implant in me true lowliness of spirit,Abase me to self-loathing and self-abhorrence,Open in me a fount of penitential tears,Break me, then bind me up;Thus will my heart be a prepared dwelling for my God; Then can the Father take up his abode in me, Then can the blessed Jesus come with healing in his touch, Then can the Holy Spirit descend in sanctifying grace;O Holy Trinity, three Persons and one God, inhabit me, a temple consecrated to thy glory.When thou art present, evil cannot abide;In thy fellowship is fullness of joy,Beneath thy smile is peace of conscience,By thy side no fears disturb, no apprehensions banish rest of mind,With thee my heart shall bloom with fragrance;Make me meet, through repentance, for thine indwelling.Nothing exceeds thy power,Nothing is too great for thee to do,Nothing too good for thee to give. Infinite is thy might, boundless thy love, limitless thy grace, glorious thy saving name.Let angels sing for sinners repenting, prodigals restored, backsliders reclaimed, Satan’s captives released, blind eyes opened, broken hearts bound up, the despondent cheered, the self-righteous stripped, the formalist driven from a refuge of lies, the ignorant enlightened, and saints built up in their holy faith.I ask great things of a great God.

It was Ravenhill who first turned me on to the official doctrine of Holiness, though of course I read all about holiness in the bible. It is something I repeatedly heard throughout his sermons, ones like "freedom from bondage" "a pure heart" etc. Here are some quotes from Ravenhill on perfection from, "Be Holy In All Conversation" 2:15min-5:24min Ravenhill said, "I think one of our weaknesses in our modern presentation of the truth on Christian living is that we are more afraid of holiness then we are of sinfulness. The preachers have given us so many alabys for our weakness and our carnal nature and heaven knows what. But when we talk about holiness we get rather nervous and we want to back off. Supposing you change the word from holy to healthy, which is really its main meaning. As He which is called you is healthy, morally and spiritually, so you should be holy, I should be holy. Ah..healthy spiritually and morally. (continued) "There are alternate words for this word holiness. You could say sanctification is the same thing. Or perfection. Well, that word scares us more then ever. You know we hear people say, "Well I'm not perfect" Well, don't be so proud of it. It shows up, don't boast about it. I mean, why aren't you perfect? You say, "you expect me to be perfect?" Sure I do. I think Jesus did, didn't He in the Sermon on the Mount? He talked about perfection there for us. (continued) "Well, we could pull out of our text for our own convenience, "wait a minute, wait a minute didn't the Apostle Paul say 'not that I have already attained or were already perfect' That's what he said. Well, you say, "if he said he wasn't perfect do you expect me to be perfect?" Yes I do. Because you quoted about perfection out of context. If you go two verses past that verse, in that verse he says 'not as though I had already attained or were already perfect" two verses further one he says "let us who are perfect". Now what do you do with it?(continued) "He's talking about two different things. In the first case, "not as though I had already attained" he's talking there of the resurrection body. I don't have one, do you? I'll be glad when I get it because I have a body that gives me a lot of problems due to some serious accident I had a few years ago. And I'll be delighted when I get, as it were, the last installment of my salvation. (continued) "salvation is present, salvation is progressive, salvation will be finalized, because one day we are going to have a body like unto His glorious body. And we are told, "be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" Now again, we can't have angelic perfection, we can't have intellectual perfection. There are many perfections we can't have. Adam like perfection. We can have spiritual perfection because God demands that we love Him with a perfect heart and with a perfect mind. And we can be made perfect in love the Word of God says."Leonard Ravenhill in, "Be Holy In All Conversation" from 2:15min-5:24min "There are only two types of people in this world; those who are dead in sin and those who are dead to sin." Leonard RavenhillMany great men taught holiness like John Wesley, John Fletcher, E.M. Bounds, William & Catherine Booth, Charles Finney, A. B. Simpson, Duncan Campbell, Leonard Ravenhill. And any one of us would do good to follow in their biblical footsteps.

Here is also a good E.M. Bounds quote to go with the Ravenhill quote:“Nothing short of absolute obedience will satisfy God. The keeping of all His commandments is the demonstration of obedience that God requires. But can we keep all of God’s commandments? Can a man receive moral ability that helps him to obey every one of them? Certainly he can. By the same token, man can, through prayer, obtain ability to do this very thing…Does God give commandments that men cannot obey? Is he so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, that He issues commandments that cannot be obeyed? The answer is that, in all of Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing that was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate to require a man something that he is unable to do? Certainly not! To infer is to slander the character of God.” From "Prayer and Obedience"

I can testifying of having the blessed experience of the beauty of holiness. This is not mere theology and idealogy we are discussing, this is practical, this is true life.Yes a Christian can sin BIG, and a Christian can sin SMALL, but a Christian doesn't have to sin at all.A true Christian, if he finds he has sin in his life, will repent. If he doesn't he becomes a backslider or a hypocrite.So I think it's really simple. If you have any BIG sins in your life, or if you have any SMALL sins in your life, simply repent.It's very important you make the distinction between TEMPTATION and SIN. You will never be above temptation, even Christ was tempted. But you can be above sin. You'll never be free from temptation until you die and recieve a new body, but you can be "free from sin"(Rom 6:18) here and now.

You will grow in grace, meaning grow in strength. (You do not have to sin to grow in grace. Rather growing in grace is not sinning, but continually saying no to temptation as it becomes easier and easier. It's going from glory to glory)The more you say no to temptation, the easier it becomes.I used to do heavy drugs. When I first started saying no to the temptations, it was very hard. But I have grown in grace, grown in strength, and now I don't even think about doing any drugs. It's not a temptation to me anymore. Let's be specific and make a list of sins men cannot live without until they die. Which sins are they?Is it drunkeness? Is it lying? Is it stealing? Is it selfishness? Is it pride? Is it hatred? Is it sexual lust? Which sin cannot a man repent from?Or as Ravenhill says in the Revival Hymn, "what are you saved from?"It's not merely cleaning the outside of the cup, (the BIG sins) but it's cleaning the inside of the cup (the smaller, unseen sins). And Jesus rebuked sharply those who only cleaned the outside but not the inside!

Or what about spiritual pride, fear, doubt, unbeliefe??? These are "hidden" sins of the heart that are the root of many "big" sins. What about anger?? What about hating someone who is abusing you??? Can any of us say "forgive him father for he knows not know what he does." No, we can not do it, but the spirit of Christ with in us can. And sometimes we need to cry out over and over again. Lord help me love the person who hurts me!! Yes, hating even the person who is hurting you is still HATE and therefore still sin. So, this is the struggle that I am referring to. And I feel the the Holy spirit has said this to me about those who are struggling with this.THE OLD MAN IS DEAD... YOU'RE NOT GOING BACK THERE. YES, SIN STILL LIVES WITH US, BUT YOU ARE CHANGING FROM IMAGE TO IMAGE AND GLORY TO GLORY. REST IN HIS LOVE FOR YOU.This is a wonderful post and I really think people need to read it again and meditate on it. I am not against holiness but when you say the word holiness you don't think of PERFECTIONISM or SINLESSNESS. I am striving to be as "holy as a sinner can be made".

Admittedly, in places Wesley's teaching on Christian perfection is difficult to sort out. He makes an assertion, qualifies it, amplifies it, alters it, and then picks up a fresh approach to the same topic. And in fact nuances in his doctrine have given rise to various schisms within Methodism. Nevertheless, the lineaments oil his teaching are clear:-Christian perfection is not sinlessness in the sense of faultlessness;-it is not a rising above human finitude;-the sanctified never possess sanctification in such a way as to be independent of Jesus Christ, and they always stand in need of forgiveness; they do continue to grow in grace; they are on the road, as Wesley said one hundred times, to perfection in love.from:http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Wesley/newpage25.htm

Do I claim to be sinless? No. Do I claim that the verses here are true, and that I can be sinless because of Jesus' work on the Cross and the Life He now imparts to me? Ofcourse, and throughout my entire New Testament it testifies to that fact. But what is sin? is it just adultery and other outward sins (even though even these orginate from the heart)? I want to know what people think about sins of the mind and even of WHO WE ARE! like everyday actions.. pride, selfishness, envy, backbiting.. sin!

"sin is trangession of the Law" 1John 3:4I don't understand this teaching that you can get the BIG sins out of your life, but not the SMALL sins. What is BIG and what is SMALL?Is pride SMALL? What if you have a lot of a small sin in your life? Suppose someone has A LOT of pride. Is it then a small sin that someone could get out of their life?"Would you be free from your burden of sin? There is power in the blood. Power in the blood. Would you be free from your passion and pride? There is power in the blood of the Lamb.""And in that fountain sinners plunge and lose ALL of their guilty stains."

You are able to abstain from sin before the eyes of others, yet when you are before only God, you suddenly have a 'sin nature' or a 'flesh' which prevents you from being able to be holy. This is hypocrisy. Whilst I fully appreciate your point here and perhaps I am thinking of slightly less obvious sins but I think this could cause some people who are not hypocritical and false to come under unnecessary condemnation. I think it is worth taking into account that although we never need to sin we sometimes do and it is more likely to happen when we are not amongst the rest of the church as we are easier targets when we are on our own or perhaps have made a mistake and got into a silly situation. I think the devil is a coward and tries to 'pick people off' whilst they are alone and vunerable rather than in the company of God's people so I don't think that everyone who sometimes falls down either in some private way or just not in front of the church is necessarily a hypocrit. I am not syaing that I think that this is always the case and I am not completely trying to argue the point that you are making. It also says confess your faults one to another not your specific sins. I am also not saying that it is not possible to withstand sin in private as I totally think it is and I get your point about 'blaming our flesh' when we had a choice.

Have wondered about the phrasing of 'missing the mark', something not quite satisfactory. It appears from these examples to be offense.Mike,I think you are bringing too modern a meaning to the word 'offense'. Without claiming a knowledge of the 'word history', let me throw a few more (other than you've mentioned) terms into the arena - iniquity, evil, wickedness, transgression. My simple understanding is that a 'transgresion' is a crossing of a line (in the sand?) and this would count as an offence. That is, the rule or law is clear and well known, but a person breaks that rule or law. That's a transgression - an offence against that rule or law.I have not read the thread so far, so this next point may have been made, which is that one can have a change of attitude to a certain behaviour after one comes to know God.... One may have been so busy trying not to sin in certain ways, that one hedged oneself about with many tiny exaggerations of the rules, simply to try to keep within them all the time. Then, after one has power over one's will (through new birth), and is delivered from certain previously irresistable temptations, one finds it possible to do things which previously one would have avoided. I don't mean one now sins with a 'clear conscience', but, that one has a sense of liberty in Christ, and as one walks in the light with Him, 1 John 1:7 is being outworked 24/7, so that one stops feeling as if one is sinning all the time and beating one's brains out about whether one has offended God inadvertently. And from that point on, it is harder for the accuser to convince one that one is secretly sinning all the time, because one simply will not receive the thought - the LIE - because one IS perfected by His one offering and one IS walking in the light and one IS living in the Holy Spirit.

There was another forum on this subject called: A Sinless Life-Is it possible? I learned alot of living a sinless life through Watchman Nee.I rarely ever catch myself sinning anymore unless I neglect my prayer life and time in the word.Even then I rarely sin anymore. There is alot in the bible about mortifying the deeds of the body.That all has to do with self denial.The truth is that alot of christians really like themselves more than they know.When you deny yourself you loose yourself and take on the likeness of Christ.You will never be the same once you walk in self denial.Alot of christians say they want to live without sin and I know their spirit man does but they still love their TV set for instance more than the agony of the cross. Jesus said if any man come after me He MUST deny himself and pick up his cross and follow me.First you have to get to the place that you are willing to give it ALL up.If you say to yourself that you'll give up all of your sins except for your TV set for instance your not in self denial.It doesn't work that way. Most christians who read this will get frustrated and ignore what Im saying here because they are not willing to accept what Im saying and they would just like to pretend that what Im saying is not true.But if any man be ignorant let him be ignorant. Self denial is basically being dead.I tell people all of the time and we've talked about this here before on the other forum.Ask yourself this: CAN SATAN MAKE A DEAD MAN SIN? The gosple is easily understood for those who want to understand.The truth is that most christians really don't want to hear because they love some of their sins.Sure theirs alot they would like to get rid of but their is alot they would like to keep so they turn a deaf ear.Not only that but self denial is very humbling.But you can't get the gold till you've been through the fire. Just think of the first time you stood in front of a bunch of strangers and started preaching.That was a fire! Now you anticipate the whole thing.Why? Because you denied yourself.So it is with every area of your life.Its hard at first because you have to put the flesh to death.The pride had to die.That was humiliating standing in front of a bunch of strangers barely able to speak.Its not hard now though is it? Now you look forward to it. If any man have ears (ears that want to hear) let him hear.

THERES ONLY ONE MAN THAT SATAN CANNOT CAUSE TO SIN AND THATS A DEAD ONE!!!! ...AND WE CAN GIVE ALL THE GLORY TO JESUS BECAUSE ONLY THROUGH HIS DEATH WAS HIS LIFE PERFECTED IN US!!!PRAISE THE LORD!!! ...HOW SATAN HATES THIS TRUTH!!!

tinluke, if anyone makes you feel like you are advocating sin, they are what God called Pharisees.The ONLY group that Jesus called names, while He was here in the flesh.'Chuck' hit it on this previous page and I dare anyone to prove this differently by that vulgar practice of just making their own list of what "they" consider "sins".Sin IS MISSING THE MARK and the Mark is Rom 8:29, Gal 4:19 ... The actual Image of Christ.Not just the cessation of outward things or whatever people narrow "sins" down to, in their own puny thinking, but sin is anything that is not in or of The Image of Christ Himself.That is "the goal" of the Holy Spirit inside of us ... that by our Cooperative fellowship with Him, that we would come into His very Image.Anything done in our own strength is sin also ... Romans 8 again and Galatians 5.If anyone's preaching the Sinless Perfection Teaching on here ... I advise they take heed, lest they fall.I don't know if someone is or not, because I haven't read this whole thread ... but if someone is, then they are narrow minded regarding the Scriptures and don't know the definition of "sin".Who here does EVERYTHING THAT JESUS WOULD BE DOING IF HE WERE TRULY LIVING INSIDE OF YOU ?But that's the "mark" and what we're to aim for and not just talk."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."Just reading All of James ought to straighten us out some and show us how far we are from "the goal".Or Matthew 25, Etc. etc.It's our puny definition of "sin" that has made Christianity as ineffective in this world as it has become in the last 50 years or so.The Lord won't bless Pharisiticalism.Phi 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Phi 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Love 1st ... right ?

I only brought up television because it is a common problem for most christians.I have a television set but I rarely watch it.The only thing I watch is the news because I don't like the commercials ect... now I just get the news off the internet. I believe in sinless perfection.Let me just say that God never throws the whole ball of wax at you.We are being perfected little by little.You have to carry your cross constantly.Not put it down and than pick it back up.That is what I call selective sinning,which is NOT self denial. Isn't that what the Revival Hymn is all about??? It makes a good sermon but how many will apply it and how many will just applaud it?

Can somebody tell me why, that whenever "missing the 'mark', which is the exact Image of Christ" is brought up, it is always passed over and the threads or conversation always go right back to this "sin" and that ?Are we posting His Word in vain and prefer to hear our own words instead ?I don't know, but it's happened every where I've heard this doctrine spoken on, for as many years back as I can remember.Puzzled & Troubled.

I was talking to a friend of mine named Miles today about this and he said, "If you can name the sin, then you can repent from that sin."I like that.

Just as unbelievers become hardened TO sin ,I believe christians become hardened FROM sin.It is the normal christian life. I love talking about this and I NEVER get tired of it. There is a law that is working in our members Romans 7:5.Just like there is the law of gravity.What goes up MUST come down.The law in our members is also a LAW and the law is basically this: WHEN A MAN IS DEAD HE CANNOT SIN!!!PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Here is an exerpt from Watchman Nee: THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE God's normal for a christian can be summerized as follows:I no longer live! Now it is Christ who lives His life in me (Gal. 2:20). There are two aspects of salvation that should be manifest in a Christian's life: the first is the forgiveness of sin; the second is his deliverance from sinning.Anyone who is not experiencing both of these aspects in his life is living beneath the privilages that God has accomplished for us in Christ. Because of our limited comprehension of the state of our fallen nature,we do not have a true appreciation of how helpless the natural man really is. Thus,we still have some expectations in ourselves.And as a result of this faulty line of thought,we think that we can please God. The blood can wash away my sins but it cannot wash away my "old man" (Rom 6:6).For this we are in need of the cross,that the old man may be crucified.Though the blood deals with sins, it is the cross that deals with the sinner. At the beginning of the Christian life,we are concerned with our doing and not with our being; we are distressed more by what we have done than by what we are.We think that if only we could rectify certain things we could be good christians; therefore,we set out to change our actions.We try to please the Lord,but we find that something within us does not want to please Him.And the more we try to rectify matters externally, the more we realize how deep seated the problem really is. Since we came into the world by birth, we must go out by death.To do away with our sinfulness, we must do away with our life.But how do we die? It is not by trying to kill ourselves.Rather,we die by recognizing that God has already dealt with us in Christ.This is summed up in the apostles statement, "As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death" (Rom.6:3)

No space suit needed .... ;-)Again, the definition of sin is ...MISSING THE MARK and the "Mark" is ... The actual Image of Christ.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,Not just the cessation of outward things or whatever people narrow "sins" down to, in their own puny thinking, but sin is anything that is not in or of The Image of Christ Himself.That is "the goal or mark" of the Holy Spirit inside of us ... that by our Cooperative fellowship with Him, that we would come into His very Image.Anything done in our own strength is sin also ... Romans 8 again and Galatians.If anyone's preaching the Sinless Perfection Teaching on here ... I advise they take heed, lest they fall.The Word is speaking of us being transformed into the very image of Christ, not Just stopping this or that.To say that "the mark" is anything less than the "Image of Christ", is narrow-mindedness regarding the Scriptures and Not knowing the definition of "sin".Do you do EVERYTHING THAT JESUS WOULD BE DOING .. IF HE IS TRULY LIVING INSIDE OF YOU ???IF in every second of every day, you were "dead" and "walking in the Spirit" alone ... you would be doing 'exactly' what He would be doing, every second of every day nonstop.That's the "mark" and what we're to aim for as Paul has written and as we see him talk about in Phil 3."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Etc from James.A "dead" person is identical to Christ and walking in the Spirit 24/7. Is there anyone here who claims that this is where they are ?It's our puny definition of "sin" that has made Christianity as ineffective in this world as it has become in the last 50 years or so.I don't tire of saying that last sentence neither.

MeAgain said: The word is speaking of us being transformed into the image of Christ,not Just stopping this or that. That is exactly what I have been saying.MeAgain said:Do you do EVERYTHING THAT JESUS WOULD BE DOING.... IF HE IS TRULY LIVING INSIDE OF YOU??? The bible tells us not to judge ourselves.The life that Jesus lives through you may not be by having you walk on water.Look at the Christians in China.I just read where the Chinese christians are not only being killed and persecuted but sent to mental hospitals.There may come a time where 15 minutes of preaching will cost you a 15 year prison sentence.Does that sound like the ministry you've always dreamed of? There is no telling what kind of life we will have in the future or what another day holds.You just have to live out each day of your life crucified with Him.This is the only life that is pleasing to the Lord.MeAgain said: If in every second of the day,you were "dead" and "walking in the spirit" alone...you would be doing 'exactly', what He would be doing,every second of the day nonstop. The ministry that God has for one is not always the ministry He has for another.There is one thing we all have in common in our walk with the Lord and that is less of us and more of Him.You might spend your entire life just being spoken against.Jesus said GREAT is your reward when men speak against you.Have you ever heard of anyone wanting a ministry of "Being Spoken Against???" Its not WHAT we do it's who we are!

Rebecca saidThe bible tells us not to judge ourselves.What do you make of this verse, then?(NKJV) 1 Corinthians 1130 For this reason many [are] weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Dorcas, 1 Cor.11:30-32 is referring to judging our actions,not ourselves. 1 Cor. chapter 4 talks about how we are not to judge ourselves; v.3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement, I judge not mine own self. 2Cor 10:12,18 For we dare not make ourselves of the number,or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves are not wise. v.18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. "Dead men cannot sin!"-Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,I think the verses you quote prove my point not yours, because in them Paul is talking about man's judgement, whereas the only judgement that matters, is God's, and if we can concur with His judgement of our sin, then, we will not be condemned later.By the way, I agree that dead mean cannot sin. That's why, if we agree with God that we are worthy of death, (that is, judge ourselves according to I Cor 11:31), then, as we partake of the bread and wine, we are acknowledging our need for the Saviour - which is how we can live free from sin as you say.

JFEdgar, I have no differences with your post.You explained your teleporter well enough and I agree, because you were wise enough to add, that we've been "commanded" to get on ... Indeed.I only used the "space suit" as a fun opener.But I haven't "raised" the mark to the moon.The 'mark' is in the Word and I didn't set it or raise it or changed it in any way.We are told to walk in the Spirit. Romans 8 that I keep refering to.My only disagreement with others, is when "the mark" is lowered, by making "sin" just these outward or whatever "things", rather than what it truly is.It puts an even greater demand on us to "walk in the Spirit" and puts more import on the work of the Holy Spirit in us.Romans 8:28 should ALWAYS be quoted with verse 29.As I said in my first post, it is a Cooperative Fellowship we have with the Holy Spirit.So, I don't see where we disagree, nor have disagreed at all, that was why I added without "space suits" to my post. I felt you were seeing it.Thanks for your reply.Love.Annie

This is how the bible defines sin:"sin is trangession of the Law" 1John 3:4That is the biblical deffinition of sin, violating God's Law - the Ten Commandments.Let's be careful not to make new commandments, and thereby say "see, nobody can be perfect". The road is already narrow, let's not make it narrower. There is no need to higher the bar any higher then it already is.Someone could say, "well, I can't be perfect because I don't read my bible 24 hours a day, and if I was perfect, then I would be reading my bible 24 hours a day." And thereby make a new commandments to justify the lack of keeping the commands that we already do have!The truth of the matter is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO SIN! And repenting means you stop it.It it is loud and clear in the bible, you don't have to sin:1 Corinthians 10:13 - "There hath NO temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will NOT suffer you to be tempted ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; but will with the temptation also make A WAY TO ESCAPE, that ye may be ABLE to BEAR IT." So there it is. When you are tempted, it is never more then you are able to bear, and you always have a way of escape, so that you don't have to sin, meaing, you don't have to violate the Law.This is not being legalistic. There is nothing legalistic about keeping God's Law. Legalism is turning the commands of men into the commands of God - Matt 15:9. But Jesus taught keeping the commands of God, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."Joh 14:15 Those who do not break the Law are not under the law, only those who violate the Law are under the Law as it clearly says in Ga 5:23 and also 1Ti 1:9

Rebecca, I only would like to address your "Dead men cannot sin!"I've read about 30 Watchman Nee books back in the 80's and I still love the man ... but, in The Release of The Spirit ... you read that this "death" is not something that we'll ever really see the end of.How could Paul write what he did in Phil 3 if that were the case ?We strive to die,{put to death} by our second by second choices.We "choose" second by second, to obey the Spirit of Truth inside us, or our flesh.We will not see perfection until we See Him.That is Scripture.But the times that we cease to move in the Spirit, we go backward.There is no such thing as being stationary in our growth. Like swimming up stream ... if we quit paddling, we're going to go backward with the current.If you claim you are already dead, then you are no longer "striving" as The Word admonishes us to.Have you read Release of the Spirit ?The Word of God alone is sufficient anyway, even if you haven't.God Bless you.Annie

Me Again, What Wathcman Nee is saying I believe is that their cannot be a release of the spirit without brokeness.Brokeness comes by denying ourselves and picking up our cross. Paul said that their was a struggle going on in his members.The will to do good was present but at times he found that he was not able.I believe that what he was saying is that we all have areas and that God deals with them one by one.This letter was one of his first I believe at the beginning of his ministry. How do we deal with these areas? By denying ourselves and nailing them to the cross.This is the race.The holy spirit points to an area and he says "this must go".One area at a time until we are all made perfect and complete.Which I believe is the mark of the high calling.God in Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus in us in all it's fullness. James 3:2 For in many things we offend all.If any man offend not in word, THE SAME IS ALSO A PERFECT MAN AND ABLE ALSO TO BRIDAL THE WHOLE BODY. This is the mark of perfection.How do you know if your perfect? Because you do not offend with your words.Is your heart pure? You will know by what comes out of your mouth because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The bible says that the tongue can be tamed but v8 says that no man can tame it so then how can it be tamed? Well you can't tame the tongue by trying harder you can only tame the tongue by dying to yourself and getting out of the way so God can do it.The bible says the tongue can NO MAN TAME. How do you get patience? Is it by trying harder to be patient? No,its by getting rid of our impatience.We already have patience,it's the fruit of the spirit.Patience though can't come forth because the spirit of impatience is in the way so you must nail it to the cross than patience can come. If you want love get rid of hate,if you want joy stop complaining,if you want peace stop worrying,if you want patience get rid of impatience ect...How by dying! We have a new nature in Christ.You just have to clear all the debrie away!This is what the release of the spirit is all about.How do you release the spirit.Well evidently the flesh is blocking it so we have to nail the flesh to the cross than the spirit can be relesed. The spirit is inside of you it just needs a way out. I agree with you that we never stop dying this is why we have to pick up our cross daily.Only one man can be on the throne.It can't be us and Jesus so we have to get out of the way.

The Isrealites crossed over the Red Sea and they were baptized in the cloud and in the sea but they never entered into the promised land.There are two areas that christians have to die from.One is sin and the other is self. After a while of being a christian one can recognize sin more easily but next you have to die to self.If you are not dead to yourself than sin will try to revive.Once your nailed to the cross you can't come back down.The apostles were more mature because the entered the fullness by self denial.This is the promised land for the believer.Not many enter in because of a lack of faith.They don't believe that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. Yes, I believe we do not have to sin.The absence of self is the absence of sin thats why its important to stay on the cross. BACK TO THE CROSS By Watchman Nee For the christian death to self is the door to life.It is the only way to fruitfulness.Hence, death is absolutely necessary.But how many of us are really dead? Death to self is the cessation of all self's activity! Christ is not only the savior who saves us from our sins but He is the savior who saves us from ourselves.To die to the self life is the only pathway to spiritual life.The turning point in experiencing God's full salvation lies in being delivered from self.And only God can cause us to die from self; noone else is able to do so. If you have not experienced the death of self your spiritual life will have little real progress. Though, as christians ,we have the fact of our inheritance,this does not necessarily mean that we have come into the experience of enjoying our inheritance.Hence, fact and experience are vastly different from one another. In order to possess and enjoy an inheritance, the inheritor must take two steps: first, he must believe that there is such an inheritance; second, he must singularly arise to take possession of this inheritance.

May I do a bit of English analysis on the question 'Must we sin?'. The word 'must' is an imperative. Jesus said 'you must be born again'. Jesus doesn't use the word 'must' very often, but, there is no escaping its meaning when He does.Using 'must' at the beginning of the question, rather than say 'need' (Need we sin?'), may give the impression that to stop sinning is only within our reach in conjunction with a huge amount of effort. I don't think this is how our freedom from sin works. I believe it works at a spiritual level, where our inner man is kept clean by the blood of Jesus Christ.Under the Old Covenant (There must be a good thread explaining this thoroughly, somewhere on SI.....?) every year on the Day of Atonement, there was a ceremony to lay all the abstract sins - thoughts, wishes, intentions, omissions (etc) on the head of a goat, who was sent out into the wilderness bearing away those sins. (This is only part of the sacrificing which was made on the Day of At-one-ment every year.) Now, according to Hebrews 10 (NKJV)17 [then He adds,] "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, [there is] no longer an offering for sin.19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,21 and [having] a High Priest over the house of God,22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 'having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience'Earlier in Hebrews, there is reference to 'an evil heart of unbelief' (3:12) and it is clear that FAITH in the blood of Jesus to cleanse our sin, is what moves us from striving to keep ourselves without His help, to the 'rest of faith' in which we stop striving to keep ourselves, and begin to believe that HE is keeping us, and His blood continues to cleanse us.This is not to say we never feel guilty or know we have sinned, but that is not our continuous condition before God.Hebrews 1222 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [that of] Abel.

Just to finish the thought.....This is why I referred to 1 John 1:7 in a previous post. This is the key to living free from a continuous sense of failure.'Must we sin?' is not about not sinning, it's about walking in the light, where the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. John ends his first letter with that same key, faith which begins the Hebrew letter.1 John 55 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is He who came by water and blood -- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue to] believe in the name of the Son of God. This is why Hebrews 10:14 is such a key verse to accept right into the middle and depth of our beings... or as Jesus used to say 'let this sink down into your ears'.11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, [in the temple at Jerusalem] which can never take away sins.12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. That's us, beloved, if you believe the word.

It boils down to this: Its like standing on the rivers bank and looking into the land that God gave you, YOUR INHERITANCE and God says to you; "See those big fat juicy grapes over there? There all yours! Now go get'em!" Sometimes I think what if I were there and we were all standing there looking into the promised land,I would hope that I would be one of those that said; "Giants? Who cares!!! That's mine and I'm goin in!!!" I don't just want to survive.I want to thrive!!!

It appears we've all "missed the mark" and need to repent ..."It's turned into this".https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9369&forum=36&4 :-P Preach. And some of us silly kids thought that this thread was interesting and going along nicely."It's turned into this."Now can ya beat that ? :-? :-D

I don't feel like I need to define what sin is.Im quite comfortable in this thread!:-)But if the water gets too hot please feel free to do so.Im just going to stay here and soak my feet!

I love reading Watchman Nee! :-) His book "Secrets to Spiritual Power", is a great book! It has a compilation of 63 of his books. The Communion of the Holy Spirit If you can bear the digging up and burrowing down that the Lord does in your life, you will be used greatly by the Lord.But if you fret and have controversy with God, you at once loose your victorious life, and any outpouring of the Holy Spirit will be of no help.Let the cross cut and pierce you deeply, for each cutting of the cross severs something from you that you love and long for.These cuttings are the work of the Cross for an increase of the measure of His grace in you.

Is it possible that we have made mistakes?? Is is possible that no one has all the answers?? Possible that we've all missed the mark?? Dear Tina,Do you think there are people here who think they never have sinned, or, who think they never sin now?Do you think that's why I posted what the Lord has shown me about how to live free from condemnation? I was not trying to be controversial, or, to suggest that what others have contributed is irrelevant.... but, we can spend a lot of time looking at the minutiae of our lives and all we are doing is making it less likely we will live in the victory Christ won for us. That's all I was getting at.This is not to say we should not identify what is wrong in our lives and, with a WILL, put it right with God and keep it right with God. But, I can only do that for me - not for anyone else - and vice versa. ;-)The 'What is sin?' thread is shaping up beautifully, too. 8-)

Do you not know that Christ has died? Do you not know that you died with Him? Do you not know that your death is no less truly a fact than His?' If not, seek the Lord until you KNOW the finality of the word: "I have been crucified with Christ".to read the message DO DEAD PEOPLE SIN?Go to http://www.victoryoversin.com/dead.htm

Thanks freecd for that websight! It's so exciting when you get the revelation that dead people cannot sin! There are actually two things that Jesus has saved us from.One is from our sins and the other one is from sinning. You really just have to be willing to give it all to Him.Alot of Christians really are not willing to give up ALL of their sins.They want to keep some like pride for instance.Thats a hard one to give up.Apologizing when your wrong is especially hard.You have to give up alot of your so called rights.Like when people speak against you even though you know their wrong but keeping your mouth shut anyway.That's hard but it produces the character of Christ in you.Most Christians would just like to take their salvation to the bank though and forget about the rest.It's a great loss!!! Brother Yun (The Heavenly Man) from China is being spoken against and called a phony.Their are some people trying to say that what he experienced in China never happened.But he says that he does not have any unforgiveness but only love for the people who are doing this to him and he never trys to prove anything to anyone, he just loves them.

Do you not know that Christ has died? Do you not know that you died with Him? Do you not know that your death is no less truly a fact than His?' If not, seek the Lord until you KNOW the finality of the word: "I have been crucified with Christ".Hi freecd,I agree with your tack which goes perfectly with Heb 10:14, BUT, I think people are looking for practical advice about how to 'do' their practical lives........ rather than only the substance of their faith. No doubt I'll be corrected by some kind person if I'm wrong on that point..... But just in case I'm not, I'd say the apostle John has the most useful terminology. It occurred to me today that there is a little more to be said about the light. (Of course, there is no light in a grave.) Therefore, this advice is for those who are born again, or seeking to be born again, and willing with all their might to live a life as pleasing to God as possible. Not forgetting 1 John 1:7(NKJV) John 319b'...light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 "For everyone practising evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In so 'doing' - that is, coming to the light - the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).(NASB) 1 John 15 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practise the truth;

There are two levels of maturity.There is denying yourself which is resisting temptation through self denial and there is the second level of maturity which is being dead. A christian can go through their walk with the Lord resisting the temptations in their life or they can live the life the apostles had which is a crucified life. The apostle Paul said I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live (Gal.) When you are dead their is no temptation.When you step down off the cross than you are tempted.The enemies attack will become more severe but if you are dead it works to your advantage because it is squeezing the life of Christ out of you like a winepress,that is if you don't step down off the cross.If you want wine the grapes have to be crushed.As soon as you step off the cross the work stops and temptation moves in.Coming off the cross is opening yourself up to temptation. Once you begin living the crucified life you will never go back to your old life because you will realize that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.Their is a difference in hearing that truth and experiencing the reality of that truth and you must experience it yourself. You will get to where you look forward to more persecution and than suddenly the devil will realize that you know something that he's known all along and that is that persecution and temptation work for our benifit if we don't step off the cross.Than he will take away the persecution from you when he realizes his plan is failing and his efforts now are only working to make you stronger and he will try something different.The reality that the devil does not want you to know is that God is allowing satan to tempt you in the areas where you are weak so He can deliver you from them.If you die to them there is deliverance and satans plan to destroy you is now being used to produce life in you.This is a truth that you will find out as you overcome each temptation that satan does not want you to know. It becomes a race.If you don't give in to the temptation than once you've died to it than you will learn a great lesson from it as the Lord gives you the revelation.Once you recieve the revelation of your problem you will not return to that again because you know better.Than the Lord will present another area of your life to you again and again until you reach to full maturity and finished your course that is if you decide to keep the race.

Dying to self has been mentioned - mainly by Rebecca but I am very familiar with this doctrine.Please could someone give scripture for it?I mean, scripture which clearly explains what you mean by 'self', whoever you are who thinks in these terms. Thank you.

Rebecca,I noticed you refer to 'levels of maturity'. I know what you mean, but, you have children....... surely you realise this is a gross oversimplification of the truth - which is that we grow into maturity - not in leaps but in tiny little increments which please our Father's heart?

Jesse,Mike mentioned in his last post the verse you quote 1 John 3:4 (KJV)4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Breaking the law is described as 'lawlessness' in several translations.John 1510 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Isn't this the commandment (or law - the Royal Law - the 'new commandment') to which John is referring in his epistle - to love one another as Christ loved us? This would explain the 'also' in the KJV. Because as you rightly pointed out, the old law is for the lawless. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But, once Christ's, are we not now obliged to keep Christ's law - the law of love, one for another.......? I put it to you that you can read the New Testament with this thought in mind, and it will still make sense. The verses which refer to the Old Covenant, or the Mosaic Law, are very clearly defined, and thereby, limited.

dorcas, In Matthew 16:24 Jesus said If any man come after me he must deny himself and pick up his cross and follow me. The first step is denying yourself. Many christians will selectively deny themselves when it suits them but they end up going in circles in the wilderness only to come back to the same area in their life the Lord has been trying to get them to give up. The second step is picking up your cross. This is the promised land.When you pick up your cross their is no temptation because dead people can't sin.This is the life the Apostles had.This is the easy way for a christian because instead of working at trying to stop sinning you just die.Sure the storms in your life will get stronger but what cannot kill you will only make you stronger. You were asking about how with our children that they learn little by little.God will NEVER give you more than you are able to bear.That is a promise in His word.If it is presented to us than we can bear it or it never would have been presented.We only think we cannot bear it because we our reasoning with our human minds instead of declaring greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

Rebecca - good answer.... but I'm concerned about the truth which Jesus also said, 'love your neighbour as yourself'.Young's translation of Matthew 24:16 saysThen said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me, I find that alteration in emphasis very helpful. It ties in with the idea of us being bought with a price, and what could we ever do to repay Him, except obey His commands willingly?You see, I think one of the reasons Christians go round in circles on this one, is the very idea of denying oneself, leans towards penance (as opposed to penitence), and could be taken as far as self-phlagellation, at least in the way the person thinks... whereas, it is more an attitude, or a decision, to not please one's 'self'.While Christians are busy trying to please God by a rarified variety of self-destruction, they are not only not coming to Him for the healing of their hurts which they need but they are actively working against a normal aspect of human nature - the having of self. (Jesus had a self.)I was looking, this morning, at Heb 12;2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; (Young)Before He endured the cross, according to Young, He had already despised the shame. This speaks to me of a Man who had thought through the implications of obedience..... This was a Man who was completely whole, and in the prime of His human strength (including his soul), Who chose to lay aside all other legitimate interests, in order to do what His Father had asked of Him. He Himself had had to enquire of His Father how this death would work (John 10:18), and He uses the word 'I' all the time. When Paul says 'not I, but Christ lives in me', it is not that he has no 'I' and has stopped being 'me'.... it is more that he is allowing the 'I' of Christ to be in control. It is the flesh, with the affections and lusts which is crucified, not the whole 'being'..... One still has a mind, a soul, strength and a new heart, which, with the body, are expected to come under the influence of the Holy Spirit, now that the previously controlling 'life of the flesh', has been baptised into His death.I don't think that a consciousness of baptism into the death of Christ, is the same as 'picking up your cross' I don't think anyone can pick up their cross, until they have been baptised into His death. This may be what Watchman Nee is getting at, which you quote (dead men cannot sin) but the fact is, while we have a body, we have to translate that spiritual truth into real daily life.When I asked the question, I had no idea I would write this in reply. I'm not trying to upset your theology too much.... only to question whether we - any of us - are communicating with realism, about how to 'think' about sin and how to experience the overcoming of it.

That's wonderful Linn ... you brought up the 1st & 2nd Commandment.THAT'S IT !!!! Yaaaaaay for you.That's what was missing for me in Nee's books, although I love the man and we still read and keep his books ... it was another man, who's still alive ... an older man, who showed us that without AGAPE, the whole ball of wax is a wasted mess.Anyhow, I won't go into all'a that, because I don't think anyone here needs me to ... I think we're all very aware of Agape and how if we 'truly' Agape we 1- won't desire 'sin' and 2 - it's the fastest way to die to 'self' and 3 - brings us into the very Image of Christ.Thanks Dorcas, all this mucking around in circles comes to an end with your bringing up the 2 Commandments ... that fulfill all the law and the prophets.Not a "self" centered teaching neither, like all the rest that I've heard.Bless yer heart sis.Thank you. :-D Oops. Edit to add #3.

dorcas, Im going to try to answer to what you said Im just having a hard time trying to understand what you are saying,which may be my fault. There are MANY areas in the bible that you could look at as literal.Jesus and His disciples all had one thing in common; they were always being accused as being WAY OVER THE TOP.What does he mean by drink His blood and eat His flesh? The disciples themselves even questioned in their minds "What is He saying?" No we don't kill ourselves or stop being an individual.We took on a new nature when we became saved.This is a reality not an idea.When you were water baptized this symbolized being buried with Him in baptism.Why were we baptized this way? Was it just another creative and interesting idea or a reality? You don't stop ever being you but you have a new nature now.Old things have passed away and all things have become new.The problem is that even though the dog has become a cat he is still trying to dig holes and bury his bones. Christians are still trying to sew fig leaves together to hide thier nakedness.You don't have to sew fig leaves anymore.Christians don't have to spend all of their time trying to cover up their old man when they realize that they no longer live. You don't have to worry about upsetting my theology.You can't upset me.It's not about me it's about Him.I don't have to prove anything to anyone and thats not meant to offend anyone thats a truth.If God gives me the opportunity to share with someone than praise the Lord if noone cares that doesn't bother me.Im just here to occupy till He comes.My life is in His hands.Every thing that happens in my life throughout the day is no mistake.The Lord giveth and sometimes the Lord taketh away. I just know what I believe and if noone else on the face of the earth believes as I do that's fine with me.That's just part of being a christian.The last thing that the apostle Paul said was that "ALL men forsook me..." Jesus died alone and all of the disciples I believe died alone.Spiritually speaking a christian is alone when they live a crucified life because the Lord sets you apart.Im used to people not agreeing with me and have no problem with it.It doesn't hurt my feelings!I enjoy the journey! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

MeAgain, I don't understand what you meant when you said, "without AGAPE the whole ball of wax is a wasted mess?" Then you said that was what was missing in Nee's books...??? Watchman Nee always preached love.He was one of the greatest preachers of love!!!Certainly there must be love!!!God is love!!! Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, mind and strength.That's alot of love and to alot of people they would say we don't really need to love the Lord that much it's too extreme.Get the light out!Too much light!It doesn't matter what area a person preaches on the truth is most people just want to stay in their comfort zone and ANYTHING you do is ALWAYS going to be too extreme.

Please listen to this.A Simple Gospel (compilation) with Ernest O'Neillhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=8908

Hia Rebecca,This is gonna be a hard one for me to answer.Like I said, we love Nee, in fact, we keep giving out 'Release in the Spirit' and today my husband had to go order another to replace his cuz I wouldn't give up mine (again) ... Ha.But, this old guy we know, that I mentioned above ... explains Agape in such a way, that I could never do right now. At least not when I'm not feeling Really perky (to say the least).But he speaks of an "experience" of when God's Love hits you like ten thousand tons of bricks ... but he doesn't word it that way. We all know we are 'to' love and that it is the 1st Commandment, but this man taught of an experience that is much like a Dying type experience, that happens quicker than most other "dying" type experiences, when 'His Love' is seen almost in it's fullest.Talk about being "blown away in the Light".Well, that's what he meant. Right now, I'm sort of exhausted from a secular forum, but if I can do this teaching any justice at all, I should wait till I'm more awake or feeling better.Nee talks much of "death to self" and that's great ... and yes, he talks about love ... but this other guy has Agape as his only talk and it's more intense than anything I've read in 30 years of searching.I didn't want to try to "explain" it, as he does, because I don't want anyone here to think that I think I've "made it".I've experienced the POW explosion of what he is talking about, but found, since now dealing with physical infirmities, that it puts things on a different testing field, that I didn't have to deal with 3 years ago.Aw, I don't feel I'm doing this any justice, so maybe I'll try another day or let Dorcas or Diane take it from here. They have a brain left. :-D Love.Annie

Hi Annie, I just got back from work so I didn't get to reply.I just really enjoy reading Watchman Nee and I've learned more from him than anyone else but it may not be for everyone.I don't think humanly speaking we could experience all of the love God has for us because it would probably kill us.I am one who believes that our lives have already been written.If God can prophecy 2,000 years ahead of time than you can bet He knows our end and our beginning so their is no need to try to work anything out.God knows how to get you from point "A" to point "B".We are written in the palm of His hand and even the hairs of our head are numbered.He knows when we sit down and when we rise up.Even if we made our bed in hell He is there too.Jesus said my sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow.I don't intend on following any strangers and know you don't either.So if we follow our shepherd's voice than we can't loose right? And I don't have a brain left either right now Ive been doing house work and taking care of my five kids all day and I just got home from work and it's midnight.So if Im not making any sense right now than you'll have to forgive me.

I need to rephrase what I meant when I wrote "that we don't need to work anything out." What I meant was that it's no longer I that live but Christ that liveth in me.We do need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as the scripture says. I will have to probably explain myself more later but I have to leave to work again. :-(

Hi Rebecca,I'm sorry to hear you have to work sooo hard! I hope you enjoy it. Anyway, it's good for us to understand what each other are up against in 3D.I just want to say thanks for the reply you made to me. My post wasn't particularly simple, as I deliberately covered a lot of ground which I believe the church is confused about. The church doesn't think it's confused, so, it's not seeing the inconsistencies in the forms of words it uses. You did say you were not sure you understood me.... sometimes, the answers to questions come through other people's posts, so, I don't mind leaving things as they are. But, do ask if you want.The main point I wish to convey, is that we do not put ourselves to death or lay down our soul life, to become like Jesus. We have soul, of which David said 'He restores my soul' (Ps 23) and the only putting to death we need do, is of the 'sins of the flesh'. There are many other activities of the flesh which are not sinful of themselves. By living in the Spirit and walking in the newness of life which the Spirit makes possible, our lives are pleasing to God.With regard to the restoration of the soul, this work is partly seen in Jesus's ministry to sick people, long before He started talking about how a disciple would need to deny (disown) himself and take up his cross to follow Him. I desire for my soul to be as reflective of the life of Christ - His physical and mental Health - as possible, so that I may endure to the end and see the salvation of my soul completed by being received in heaven.

dorcas (myself) the only putting to death we need do, is of the 'sins of the flesh'. Hi Mike,You've quoted one of the verses I had in mind when I wrote that. I agree completely that the sins of the flesh should be mortified. That's what I believe. That's what I said.I assume you've read the preceding post (the last one before MeAgain, p10) of which my latest before this one, was a clarification. In that context, I should have emboldened 'selves' - see below - and 'soul life', for even greater clarity.The main point I wish to convey, is that we do not put ourselves to death or lay down our soul life,There are a number of verses in scripture which agree with Col 3:5. I'm not in dispute with any of them.

Mike, Could I ask for clarification of the origin of the quotes in your last post, and whether these were in any measure a response to my last post?

Mike,I'm not disputing the need for individual responsibility for sin. I hope you don't think I am. The fact is, Jesus Christ took responsibility for paying the price for each individual's sin. That's the gospel. We are not supposed to continue languishing under the effects of past sins, but, we do, because they have made their mark on our souls. That's why the blood is required to be constantly cleansing our souls, as we walk in the light. (1 John 1:7)What I'm disputing is this: that to cease from sin, we must 'lay down' our 'soul's life' - and I'm disputing it, because it doesn't make any sense. God restores our soul. He is offering us the chance to preserve our soul, by accepting the death of our old man through baptism into the death of Christ. (Rom 6:6)What we lay down/mortify/put to death are the 'sins of the flesh' which are contrary to the life of the Spirit. We still have to live in our bodies, but not everything which our bodies do, is sinful. The outworking of the mortification of 'the sins of the flesh', is that our soul is no longer in jeopardy of hell; the life of the Spirit quickens (brings to life) the flesh (Rom 8:11) and as we stop sinning (as listed), we (our souls) are being healed of the harmful effects of such previous sins.I hope you are not suggesting that it is impossible to stop sinning the sins listed in the verse you quote?

Dorcas and Mike, I think were all three pretty much saying the same thing.We die to our sins which is our old man and we recieve a new man which is created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world but BE YE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable, and perfect wil of God. The word "transformed" in the Greek is METAMORPHOO which means transformed or transfigured by a supernatural change, as in Mt. 17:2; Mk. 9:2; Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor 3:18. As we die to our sins we are at the same time dying to our old man and our minds are BEING (active verb) transformed.

I can't say for sure but it's possible when God created the butterfly He had us in mind.Im sure He did! When I was studying that word "transformed", and looked it up in the Greek as meaning; "metamorphoo", the first thing that comes to mind is the butterfly and that's a good example as to what takes place in the life of a christian. The butterfly as we all know is first a catapillar and is slowly changed into a butterfly.ITS STILL THE SAME INSECT THOUGH.The old insect is changed or transformed.The old man slowly leaves as the new man takes over.I guess the DNA somehow suddenly changes,I don't know I'm not a scientist. Out with the old and in with the new.God doesn't take away anything without putting something back.Doesn't that make sense?

Since the earth declares the glory of God here's what I found on the metamorphasis of a butterfly.Just thought it would be interesting to read to some and maybe you will glean something totally different from it.God talks about the animals and nature all throughout the bible.Interesting if nothing else. METAMORPHASIS From the time a catapillar hatches it eats so much that it's skin can't keep up.It sheds it's skin several times as it grows bigger and bigger.Eventually it forms a chrysalis and one day splits open and a butterfly emerges.Insects with a complete metamorphasis pass through a larval stage and than enter an INACTIVE STATE known as a pupa (or chrysalis), finally emerging as the adult form.Many observations have indicated that CELL DEATH plays a considerable role during physiological processes of multicellular organisms,particularly dury embyogenisis and metamorphasis.

I don't understand,what am I saying different that has not already been said on the Revival Hymn everyone is so excited about? "Why should a person come to the cross? Why should a person EMBRACE DEATH WITH CHRIST? Why should a person go in identification down to cross into the tomb and up again?I'll tell you why because its the only "WHAT????" Did someone say "ONLY WAY to get glory out of a human being????" "We pray that some of us may go to our own..." WHAT??? Did someone say "funeral tonight and end all the failure and all the weakness???" Our beloved Leonard Ravenhill that's who.

Rebecca, I just had the neatest experience looking over this thread, as one would who has never been to this website before.The other day, I said, this is the first forum I've ever come back to or ever wanted to.Now, if you sit back and look at what we are saying, just on this one thread "collectively" ... I dare anyone to find a bunch of people, so dedicated to finding the heart and desire of GOD in their own lives as here, right now.Unbelievably beautiful. No one is contradicting each other really, nor disagreeing, but everyone's playing the same symphony but on their own individual instrument.But it's still the same song and I truly and sincerely believe that this song, on this one thread alone here, is rising up into the very ears of God our Savior and He is pleased.We're striving and the beauty I see is we're striving together toward the same goal and encouraging each other toward that same goal, at the same time.For as long as the freedom remains to do this one thing together, I say, sit back and ENJOY THIS ... isn't it WONDERFUL !

Randy, You did say that you believe it's impossible to stop sinning.Than you go on to say that God does not look at sin and say, "Oh my poor creature,thou are so subjected to ill influences that thou art necessatated to live a sinful life of rebellion against me but I am merciful.Nay, I answer God is not such towards sin." Than you go on to quote John 3:4-9 Whosoever is born of God cannot sin for His seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God. Than you go on to say that God can deliver us from temptation.If He can deliver us from temptation as Jesus prayed; "Lead us not unto temptation..." Doesn't temtation come before sin and if temptation comes before sin and we are delivered from temptation than it's impossible to sin right?

MeAgain, This is a GREAT websight your right!Im just trying to understand where everyone is coming from.Especially all of those who are always quoting Leonard Ravenhill and Paris Reidhead. As iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Sharpening is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have all sinned, but must we continue to sin? From everything I read, the gospel speaks of empowerment. I can do all things... we are more than conquerors... greater is he that is in thee...we are told to mortify (kill) the flesh through the Spirit.

We start out with determination and slowly the world the flesh and the devil begin to eat away at us.

It's true

You'll laugh your head off as you see yourself in this, at least I did anyway.

We start out with determination and slowly the world the flesh and the devil begin to eat away at us.

Having said that, I believe some of our desires are an attempt to comfort a wounded soul, and the answer is not the cross, but the balm of His healing.